| Quote: |
Hersh: US, Israel support PKK's Iran branch against Tehran
The New Anatolian / New York
21 November 2006
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The U.S. and Israel have both supported the Iranian branch of the terrorist Kurdistan Workers' Party's (PKK) in order to destabilize Tehran, claims investigative journalist Seymour Hersh in this week's The New Yorker magazine.
According to Hersh's article "The Next Act," while exploring whether a damaged U.S. administration is less likely to attack Iran, or more, the author found that the U.S. has been supporting the Party for Free Life in Kurdistan (Pejak), the PKK's branch in Iran, for the last six months.
Pejak, writes Hersh. "has been conducting clandestine cross-border forays into Iran, I was told by a government consultant with close ties to the Pentagon civilian leadership, as 'part of an effort to explore alternative means of applying pressure on Iran.' (The Pentagon has established covert relationships with Kurdish, Azeri, and Baluchi tribesmen, and has encouraged their efforts to undermine the regime's authority in northern and southeastern Iran.)"
He adds, "The government consultant said that Israel is giving the Kurdish group 'equipment and training.' The group has also been given 'a list of targets inside Iran of interest to the U.S.' (An Israeli government spokesman denied that Israel was involved.)"
The author suggests that the U.S. Congress had no knowledge of this support. "Such activities, if they are considered military rather than intelligence operations, do not require congressional briefings," he writes.
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http://www.thenewanatolian.com/tna-18428.html
yes .i saw iranian president givin the same speech.us supports an admitted terrorist group to destroy iran. but i don t think anyone would be surprised...after all it is the american way right 
| felisleo wrote: |
after all it is the american way right |
Yep. This isn't the first time either.
Some times you gotta take the lesser of two evils. Besides, you should sometimes fight fire with fire.
| S3nd K3ys wrote: |
Some times you gotta take the lesser of two evils. Besides, you should sometimes fight fire with fire.
|
Until the Lesser Evil becomes the bigger one and another Lesser Evil is created to fight it, that's also the American Way.
And in this process, the only thing that remains non-evil is the USA.
Last edited by ibay on Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:33 am; edited 1 time in totalWhile I understand that Bangladesh is a country that has experienced the effects of both imperialism and terrorism firsthand, I see no reason to state that simply acting in the best interest of the nation is inherently racist. If Bangladesh happened to be the one superpower in the world, I'm fairly certain that they too would act for their own interests, playing the imperialist and toying with smaller or less powerful countries. I'm just thankful that America as a whole at least claims to have good intentions (as would commonly be defined good, not perhaps what Saddam would call good), rather than outright admission of purely selfish intent.
Then again, we were acting in the best interest of the economy and the security of a newborn nation, when we declared slaves to be 3/5 of a person, and yet denied them any semblance of rights (we didn't even give them 3/5 of a person's rights), which is commonly seen as a racist, if not somewhat needed decision.
We were acting in the best interest of the nation's security when we launched the Bay of Pigs invasion, funded Contra etc, not altogether racist, but certainly discrimination against a different way of thought.
Perhaps self-interest is inherently racist (or discriminatory), and therefore humanity is inherently racist...
The least I can say on behalf of America is that we are at least discussing this, continually reviewing our policy and redefining what is good for the nation and the world. After all you've convinced me to think out this issue more throughly and allowed me to see more of your viewpoint, perhaps I've offered something in exchange for you to ponder over as well.
pity, somebody deleted his racist quote rendering my argument pointless (at least making it not easily understandable)
| S3nd K3ys wrote: |
| felisleo wrote: |
after all it is the american way right |
Yep. This isn't the first time either.
Some times you gotta take the lesser of two evils. Besides, you should sometimes fight fire with fire.
|
in a matter like terrorism, governments should be extremely careful
when usa support pkk against to iran
it also give damage to turkiye
what will you think if turkiye support some iraqi terrorists against to usa.
if you say
my terrorist is good , your terrorist is bad
you can not solve terrorism problem.That comes to no suprise, the CIA does something like that except it's more oriented to toppling down regimes they wish gone. It's been like that since the 70s or even earlier. Except they where revolutionarist and not terrorist.
I'm sorry, but the United States can't sit back and do nothing. Like SK said, sometimes you must choose the lesser of the two evils.
| Soulfire wrote: |
| I'm sorry, but the United States can't sit back and do nothing. Like SK said, sometimes you must choose the lesser of the two evils. |
but terrorist that usa supports are killing innocent civilians in iran and in turkiye .
today usa is powerful and can do whatever it wants.
but in a short time you will understand what hypocricy cost you. | palavra wrote: |
but terrorist that usa supports are killing innocent civilians in iran and in turkiye .
today usa is powerful and can do whatever it wants. |
True, but terrorists that the U.S. oppose are currently killing civilians at the moment as well. You can't single out every single case against the U.S. foreign policy that you don't like and ignore the positive points. For once I agree (at least slightly) with S3nd K3ys and believe that we do have to quantify civilian lives in this case, and weigh possible scenarios against each other, and chose which people should die. As unfortunate as their death is, we cannot stop (or even attempt to stop) terrorism everywhere at once. While supporting recognized terrorists groups in Iran and Turkey is not something that I would wish my government to do, I feel that it is a relatively minor issue considering the world as a whole. Now if we all of a sudden decided to declare the terrorist group the leader of the country (like in the case of Panama and Colombia), I would be quite a bit more displeased...
You also have to take into account the public policy of Turkey in this case, where they refuse to admit that a Kurdish genocide occurred, and that the government (at least partially) sponsored it. | Montressor wrote: |
| palavra wrote: | but terrorist that usa supports are killing innocent civilians in iran and in turkiye .
today usa is powerful and can do whatever it wants. |
True, but terrorists that the U.S. oppose are currently killing civilians at the moment as well. You can't single out every single case against the U.S. foreign policy that you don't like and ignore the positive points. For once I agree (at least slightly) with S3nd K3ys and believe that we do have to quantify civilian lives in this case, and weigh possible scenarios against each other, and chose which people should die. As unfortunate as their death is, we cannot stop (or even attempt to stop) terrorism everywhere at once. While supporting recognized terrorists groups in Iran and Turkey is not something that I would wish my government to do, I feel that it is a relatively minor issue considering the world as a whole. Now if we all of a sudden decided to declare the terrorist group the leader of the country (like in the case of Panama and Colombia), I would be quite a bit more displeased...
You also have to take into account the public policy of Turkey in this case, where they refuse to admit that a Kurdish genocide occurred, and that the government (at least partially) sponsored it. |
in turkiye people become antiamerican day by day because of bush and us foreign policy
-which kurdish genocide you mean? | palavra wrote: |
in turkiye people become antiamerican day by day because of bush and us foreign policy
-which kurdish genocide you mean? |
I wouldn't be surprised if they are. But you must also realize that people in the U.S. are becoming more anti-Islamic due to the actions of Iran, and the radical fundamentalist Islamic militants...
Sorry, cited the wrong genocide, it's the Armenian genocidepkk are in my opinion less terrorist then turkeys goverment, and this is kinda funny because pkk has been named terrorists by usa and now they support them.
but usa knows that pkk is fighting iran and they take advantage of it just like they did in irak, thoose pkk soliders shouldnt be understimated many of them are very expericed and very trained, i think usa want them to do the "dirty job"
| Alankurd wrote: |
| but usa knows that pkk is fighting iran and they take advantage of it just like they did in irak |
Actually, I believe that the main mission of the PKK is fight Turkey, not Iran | Alankurd wrote: |
| thoose pkk soliders shouldnt be understimated many of them are very expericed and very trained, i think usa want them to do the "dirty job" |
Quite possibly, but you've failed to mention the dirty work that has been done against the Armenians in Turkey (of whom the PKK is a representative, albeit an extremist representative).
I believe that I stated that I don't support my government's apparent support of this specific group, but feel that the U.S. is attempting to act in an overall positive way in the region | Montressor wrote: |
| Alankurd wrote: | | but usa knows that pkk is fighting iran and they take advantage of it just like they did in irak |
Actually, I believe that the main mission of the PKK is fight Turkey, not Iran | Alankurd wrote: | | thoose pkk soliders shouldnt be understimated many of them are very expericed and very trained, i think usa want them to do the "dirty job" |
Quite possibly, but you've failed to mention the dirty work that has been done against the Armenians in Turkey (of whom the PKK is a representative, albeit an extremist representative).
I believe that I stated that I don't support my government's apparent support of this specific group, but feel that the U.S. is attempting to act in an overall positive way in the region |
pkks main mission is turkey but they have also started somethings on iran too and also about armenia you are right about that aswell, and they where very very stupid and i cant understand why they did it... | palavra wrote: |
in turkiye people become antiamerican day by day because of bush and us foreign policy
-which kurdish genocide you mean? |
Yeah, some folks don't like the fact that GW likes to kill terrorists.
Sorry, I didn't quite understand your last post Alankurd, did you mean to state that I was right about an Armenian genocide and the Turkish denial of the fact, or were you saying that PKK is indeed a representative of a select group of repressed Armenians (just as Al Quida is a representative of a select group of repressed Islamic radicals)?
By the way, S3nd K3ys, I'm defending America here, not Muslims this time | Montressor wrote: |
Sorry, I didn't quite understand your last post Alankurd, did you mean to state that I was right about an Armenian genocide and the Turkish denial of the fact, or were you saying that PKK is indeed a representative of a select group of repressed Armenians (just as Al Quida is a representative of a select group of repressed Islamic radicals)?
By the way, S3nd K3ys, I'm defending America here, not Muslims this time |
sorry my english isnt the best what im trying to say is that i think you are right about what you said about the armenia thing because i am not sure about that and i have not read much about it. the only thing i know is that it happen and ive undrestand that kurds was payed by the turkish gouverment to do it but as i said im not sure about it and i dont know much about that.
and pkk is very cruel and that but you must keep in mind that the gouverment they are fighting isnt angels.
pkk is fighting for a good cause: a free kurdistan, however they way they are fighting for this isnt a good way.
and s3nd k3ys i think most ppl want all terrorists dead, but bush is doing it in a very bad way with very bad methods... | Alankurd wrote: |
and s3nd k3ys i think most ppl want all terrorists dead, but bush is doing it in a very bad way with very bad methods... |
He's doing it. That's more than I can say for any other US President in the last 30 years. And truth (or opinion in this case) be told, he's doing it a lot more friendly than what is going to be needed in the future if he keeps letting the US look "weak".
| S3nd K3ys wrote: |
| Alankurd wrote: |
and s3nd k3ys i think most ppl want all terrorists dead, but bush is doing it in a very bad way with very bad methods... |
He's doing it. That's more than I can say for any other US President in the last 30 years. And truth (or opinion in this case) be told, he's doing it a lot more friendly than what is going to be needed in the future if he keeps letting the US look "weak".
|
it seems to me that he is creating ALOT more terrorism than he is removing | Alankurd wrote: |
| sorry my english isnt the best |
Absolutely no problem (as long as we can calmly explain what we mean without devolving into a flame war) | Alankurd wrote: |
| pkk is fighting for a good cause: a free kurdistan, however they way they are fighting for this isnt a good way. |
Once again, agreement. Another interesting facet of the PKK and a free Kurdistan is that the semi-autonomous Kurdistan in Iraq is not getting international Kurdish support, because if the Iraqi Kurds gain an independent country, the possibility of Turkish or Iranian Kurds gaining the same is greatly lowered... and the Turkish and Iranian Kurds aren't too happy about that
As far as the support of the PKK, I'm sure even S3nd K2ys agrees that the U.S. support of an admitted (by the U.S.) terrorist group in another country is not good for U.S. interests.
Last edited by Montressor on Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:35 pm; edited 1 time in total | Alankurd wrote: |
| S3nd K3ys wrote: | | Alankurd wrote: |
and s3nd k3ys i think most ppl want all terrorists dead, but bush is doing it in a very bad way with very bad methods... |
He's doing it. That's more than I can say for any other US President in the last 30 years. And truth (or opinion in this case) be told, he's doing it a lot more friendly than what is going to be needed in the future if he keeps letting the US look "weak".
|
it seems to me that he is creating ALOT more terrorism than he is removing |
Because he's letting America look weak. He's also letting the terrorst propoganda go un-challenged. If he wanted to deal with Iraq effectively, he would remove the biggest problem there: Iran. (not necessarily attack Iran on Iranian soil, but attack the Iranian factions in Iraq clearly and effectively, as well as Hesbollah and Hamas) But he's letting these schmucks run rampant killing women and children at will and does little about it.
Hopefully our next pres will have more balls. | S3nd K3ys wrote: |
Hopefully our next pres will have more balls. |
Unlikely given the response to this one... | ocalhoun wrote: |
| S3nd K3ys wrote: | | Hopefully our next pres will have more balls. |
Unlikely given the response to this one... |
Agreed
On another point, I think you two scared him away... -i told in turkiye people become more antiamerican because they think usa are supporting pkk and you are admitting this support now.
you will see the consequences. 
- i wrote my idea about armenian problem in related topic you can check.
http://www.frihost.com/forums/vt-54245.html&highlight=
-i think usa people does not support the bush
and they got rid of bolton and rumsfeld
and bush is a lameduck now
-and new american president is going to be a ball - less one 
| palavra wrote: |
-i think usa people does not support the bush
-and new american president is going to be a ball - less one |
The Bush? odd way to address a president.
The first female president... | ocalhoun wrote: |
| palavra wrote: |
-i think usa people does not support the bush
-and new american president is going to be a ball - less one |
The Bush? odd way to address a president.
The first female president... |
i mean bush and his team .
and he is not my president
i don't like him.i mean my feelings against to him more powerful
but only the sake of nation that voted for him, i don't want to be rude. | palavra wrote: |
| ocalhoun wrote: | | palavra wrote: |
-i think usa people does not support the bush
-and new american president is going to be a ball - less one |
The Bush? odd way to address a president.
The first female president... |
i mean bush and his team .
and he is not my president
i don't like him.i mean my feelings against to him more powerful
but only the sake of nation that voted for him, i don't want to be rude. |
He never said it was YOUR president. Do pay attention.
I think he's one of the best US presidents since Lincoln. He knows the real threat to civilized nations, and he's doing something about it.One of the best US presidents since Lincoln. Really? Is there anything that he does that you dissagree with? Just a question.
| joshumu wrote: |
| One of the best US presidents since Lincoln. Really? Is there anything that he does that you dissagree with? Just a question. |
Absolutely. Several as a matter of fact.
Immigration, stem cell research, spending, the North American Union, his use of the term "War On Terror".
Just to name a few.
On the other side, he has killed a shit load of terrorists, and hopefully won't stop until they're all gone or all stop being terrorists and practice a peaceful version of Islam. He has somehow kept this economy very very strong in the face of numerious disasters, he has kept me employed gainfully, he doesn't care what lies the MSM and the left tell about him, he stands by what he says (the dems REALLLY hate that ), he knows there are some things the population just shouldn't know about, and the list goes on. | S3nd K3ys wrote: |
| palavra wrote: | | ocalhoun wrote: | | palavra wrote: |
-i think usa people does not support the bush
-and new american president is going to be a ball - less one |
The Bush? odd way to address a president.
The first female president... |
i mean bush and his team .
and he is not my president
i don't like him.i mean my feelings against to him more powerful
but only the sake of nation that voted for him, i don't want to be rude. |
He never said it was YOUR president. Do pay attention.
I think he's one of the best US presidents since Lincoln. He knows the real threat to civilized nations, and he's doing something about it. |
why usa people did not support him in last election.
in clinton's time there was a respect for usa.
at this time there is only hate for usa in all over the world.
and
you are not the one who teachs manner.
look yourself. | palavra wrote: |
why usa people did not support him in last election.
in clinton's time there was a respect for usa.
at this time there is only hate for usa in all over the world.
and
you are not the one who teachs manner.
look yourself. |
Um, that is slightly wrong, as why did he get elected? Lol, people supported him...
There are only some people who hate the US, terrorists for instance...
In Clinton's time, the US was seen as a laughing stock who elects presidents who were dogs in a previous life... | S3nd K3ys wrote: |
| I think he's one of the best US presidents since Lincoln. He knows the real threat to civilized nations, and he's doing something about it. |
Even I can answer that one, the threat to "civilized" nations is uncivilized nations/people. So the solution to this threat is to nullify that "threat", right? What better way to do that then to make our nation uncivilized! That way the uncivilized people have no reason to attack us because we are at least as uncivilized as them! Whoo-Hoo! Way to go, avoid trying to help them on the way to "civilization", just "decivilize" ourselves. Somehow I don't think that's the best way to do it, maybe the easiest, but not the best. Only now after the fact we have to try to bring back a semblance of civilization to both countries...
Sorry for the excessive sarcasm, but it was irresistible. | Star Wars Fanatic wrote: |
[
Um, that is slightly wrong, as why did he get elected? Lol, people supported him...
There are only some people who hate the US, terrorists for instance...
In Clinton's time, the US was seen as a laughing stock who elects presidents who were dogs in a previous life... |
i travelled from turkiye to singapur
more than 15 country.
in every country, hate for usa is increasing.
if you have an opportunity, try it yourself.
even china is 5 times more popular than usa.
some usa citizens hide their nationality.
http://www.frihost.com/forums/vt-59754.html&highlight=
| Quote: |
| One American friend of mine took to telling eveyone that she was Australian while travelling through Thailand a few years ago just to escape the dirty looks and verbal abuse that she got if she told people she was American |
I didn't vote for the guy, and neither did anyone I know, or at least not that they will admit. It's sad, just sad.
Oh, I also wanted to add my dislike of his opening the oil fields in the Alaskan Reserve, the creation of rebates for purchasing Hummers, and a weak stance on the necessity of the creation of fuel efficient vehicles. Imagine what Al Gore would have done, the man who created "An Inconvenient Truth." Sad.
| palavra wrote: |
| S3nd K3ys wrote: | | palavra wrote: | | ocalhoun wrote: | | palavra wrote: |
-i think usa people does not support the bush
-and new american president is going to be a ball - less one |
The Bush? odd way to address a president.
The first female president... |
i mean bush and his team .
and he is not my president
i don't like him.i mean my feelings against to him more powerful
but only the sake of nation that voted for him, i don't want to be rude. |
He never said it was YOUR president. Do pay attention.
I think he's one of the best US presidents since Lincoln. He knows the real threat to civilized nations, and he's doing something about it. |
why usa people did not support him in last election.
in clinton's time there was a respect for usa.
at this time there is only hate for usa in all over the world.
and
you are not the one who teachs manner.
look yourself. |
ROFL. Funding terrorist groups opposing other governments and presenting them as the 'lesser evil' to the stupid voting lambs has made the current irani and past iraqi and afghan 'evil governments' (all of which were previously 'lesser evils' or even 'freedom fighters') a real threat to USA.
It also made Panama, Nicaragua, Guatemala, Chile, Bolivia, Argentina and Paraguay go back 60 years in development, with millions of dead, maimed and tortured civilians as an expected and tolerable effect.
I wonder why noone has already began funding the 'lesser evil' inside USA. That would really be an interesting twist. Or perhaps someone did, and the final results are yet to come.
I hope I live to see that day come. That will be fun.
| S3nd K3ys wrote: |
| Hopefully our next pres will have more balls. |
As long as the current ban on un-neutered males in Washington expires.
Arbitrary rant:
I wish I never read this topic.
No one is every happy. If the US doesn’t intervene – ‘why you no intervene?’ If the US does – ‘why US not mind its own business?’ If the US attempts to counter or prevent huge global threat with covert activity – crap like the title of this topic.
As a citizen of the US, I’m so sorry. But don’t worry. I’ll get mine right polarBear and palavra | polarBear wrote: |
ROFL. Funding terrorist groups opposing other governments and presenting them as the 'lesser evil' to the stupid voting lambs has made the current irani and past iraqi and afghan 'evil governments' (all of which were previously 'lesser evils' or even 'freedom fighters') a real threat to USA.
It also made Panama, Nicaragua, Guatemala, Chile, Bolivia, Argentina and Paraguay go back 60 years in development, with millions of dead, maimed and tortured civilians as an expected and tolerable effect.
I wonder why noone has already began funding the 'lesser evil' inside USA. That would really be an interesting twist. Or perhaps someone did, and the final results are yet to come.
I hope I live to see that day come. That will be fun. |
this will be very interesting.
nowadays i hear these words 'rising star, falling star' in every place.
they refer to china and usa.
maybe this "rising star" can begin to fund some "lesser evil " in the "falling star"Yeah, wouldn't that be great if China was the world power.
That would almost be as great as the Soviets. I’m sure the Chinese communist philosophy of a Red atheist state run automaton population will certainly propagate Islam. Palavra and polarBear, watch what you pray for, you might get it.
And for the radicals out there, ha, your tactics won’t work on the Chinese. You see, terror only works on democracies.
Kill people -> people get terrorized -> people demand change
In China people get run over with tanks if they ask for change. | horseatingweeds wrote: |
Yeah, wouldn't that be great if China was the world power.
That would almost be as great as the Soviets. I’m sure the Chinese communist philosophy of a Red atheist state run automaton population will certainly propagate Islam. Palavra and polarBear, watch what you pray for, you might get it.
. |
firstly , i don't pray for china . usa is my "lesser evil".
i just wanted to clarify the situation.in this place people don't trust to usa any more.
secondly,i have a hope for usa . after the election it can be better.Communism has NEVER been an actual threat to anyone not wearing a tinfoil hat. Totalitarian fascism perhaps could have been such a threat, but at least 17 years ago that's not the case.
China is not a communist country, in that it allows private property, and in that it is not organized around comunal structures, but instead on a monolythic bureaucracy with a strong information and thought control. Much like the US, but without the lardbutts.
Closing my participation here; I wonder why do people think I'm a communist 
I'm a nihilist, horseatingweeds, and I'm quite proud of it. | horseatingweeds wrote: |
No one is every happy. If the US doesn’t intervene – ‘why you no intervene?’ If the US does – ‘why US not mind its own business?’ If the US attempts to counter or prevent huge global threat with covert activity – crap like the title of this topic.
|
Agreed. But that's what we get for being the most powerful country on the planet, everybody has expectations for us, and most of their expectations are vastly different from each other's and ours .In a normal world without a giant, hegemonic predator economy claiming police power over other countries noone would expect anything from USA. But, as it's not what happens in reality, mostly everyone 'hopes' the US will favour them over its competitors.
The concrete effect of such policy is called sphere of influences, and it's just as vital for the US interests as it is to minor, USA dependant economies like Chile or Mexico.
PS: My explanation sucked. I'll expand or clarify later.
