Many people worshipped virgin today and I am confused if this practice is being asked by God or not?
Many people worshipped virgin today and I am confused if this practice is being asked by God or not?
Although those who practice such veneration claim biblical support through passages such as:
and the "Magnificat":
and even such things as her instructions at the wedding at Cana:
when someone in the Bible actually DID offer such praise to Mary, Jesus rebuked that person:
Thus, although Mary certainly WAS blessed, and received a tremendous privilege, Jesus made it clear that we were not to elevate Mary in any special way.
Don't forget: other parts of the veneration of Mary include the belief that SHE (not just Jesus) was born without sin (a doctrine called the "immaculate conception") and, when she died, was "assumed," bodily, into heaven; and there are many more such doctrines still accepted by certain branches of the church.
Exsept saying that they say to worship Marry is taking them out of context.
What are these religions that "Worship Mary"? I'm Catholic, and as far as I can tell, Catholics tend to hold Mary in higher regard than many other religions, so I'm guessing that may be what you're referring to. However, we do not "Worship" her, nor any other saint. There's a big difference between worshipping and honoring. Maybe you think that asking for a saint's intercession through prayer is worshipping? Please clarify.
I'm a born-again Christian and don't believe that any dead person can hear my prayers, let alone intercede for me. I don't know of a biblical basis for praying to the dead.
As for honoring saints and Mary, from the protestant perspective looking in, this often looks very close to worship, although Catholics may not see it as such.
If Jesus makes says you should not worship mary in any way then to be a good christian you must not.
If Jesus has no opinion then you can do whatever you want.
If Jesus says you must then you must.
If any other prophet however says you must not\must, be careful because there are they are false prophet if they say anything against Jesus's words in any way. Worshiping a false prophet I believe falls under the old testament and I think your punished when you die by God. I can't remember if it's that or if you just have to stone(throw stones at till he dies) the false prophet and if you don't stone him you will be punished by god when you die.
Basically if anyone finds a quote that Jesus said, "Don't worship mary" then you cannot worship mary and the consequnces will be given by God(on less specified otherwise) when you die.
I've looked this up, and the Christian theological study of Mary is called Mariology. The worshipping of her as a deity is referred to as Mariotheism.
Christians (that is, anyone who believes in Christ) that praise Mary are known as Mario-Christians.
Hope this helps.
That sounds very idealistic and fundamental. Can you really put your whole trust in Jesus' words without question??? You have such a strong faith in one man, that you think anything that comes against his way is wrong
Jesus says you can't judge others, only God can judge. So who are you to say if people are right or wrong? You automatically make a judgement, and you are so self-righteous that the only unquestionable truth is the bible and Jesus related truths.
Bear in mind that the muslims hold their Mohammed in as much sacred regard, they believe Mohammed to be witness to the truth. Can you say that the Muslims are wrong and Jesus was right. Which religion is right, Chrisianity or Islam.
Science tells us that Jesus can't ascend into outer space into heaven or paradise. Yet as a christian you are led to believe that Jesus can perform any miracles.
When I pray for healing of a medical condition, Jesus tells us that our prayers are heard by the Father who will answer them. Does He provide healing to everyone who asks for healing? Of course not, God works in mysterious ways, right? you'd say he provides you with an alternative. Maybe God intends us to suffer for his glory's sake. I'd say if a father offered anything less than healing he would be leaving the person suffering. Any father would not leave his children suffering unless he wanted to force them into discipline or force a test on them, or force a dark night of the soul on them. Where's the free will, did we choose to accept that suffering?
Am I automatically in the wrong for questioning Jesus, am I damned to hell with mortal sin or whatever?
I recently attended a seminar on Christianity and I've been heavily and thoroughly examining the religion for about 3 years. By Christian standards, you are not damned for questioning Jesus, because you have the option to repent and accept Him into your heart as Savior and Lord.
He then stays with and guides you for the rest of your days.
Now, this I had to learn, because I'm Jewish and I'm learning Christian fundamentals.
Paragraph 1032 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church states this about Purgatory which is a reason why we pray for the dead:
This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."
2 Macc 12:46.
There are other reasons and texts of course.
I wish you would have included the section of the catechism for us to see. But it looks like your reference is about praying FOR the dead, whereas Moonspider was talking about TO the dead.
Here's the context of the submitted information with regards to prayer "for" the dead. The reference link is just below.
With regards to praying "to" the dead, a simple beginning is the fact of the Apostles and Disciples of Jesus Christ who spoke (and ate) with the Redeemer after His Resurrection. The first chapter of the Acts of the Apostles is one reference.
Thanks for the citation, DaCombo. It always helps to supply the relavent passages. And pardon, my obtuseness, but I just skimmed Acts I and didn't see the section that applies to praying TO the dead, which I thought was the point, back aways. Could you pin that down for me to?
I guess it all depends on how you look at it.
If you interpret PRAY in the sense TALKING to then we're on the right track aren't we?
There are different forms of prayers just like there different ways that we can talk to people right?
We can praise, give thanks, ask or exchange ideas or thoughts. This we can do on both levels (spiritual and human). We humans break these elements down into differents categories but they all occur in very simple and casual day to day conversations.
So, this excerpt from the Book of the Acts of the Apostles (which differs considerably from a french translation which mentions that Jesus was having a meal with his disciples after his Death and Resurrection and not simply being or sitting or chatting or staying with them)...
There are of course so many more biblical passages and other Christian (and non Christian) traditions that can enlighten us on this "praying to the dead" matter.
You don't pray to saints (and Mary) you pray with them. The people really aren't dead, are they? I mean, we all have eternal life, correct? So they're really ALIVE in HEAVEN PRAYING. We join in their prayer - with all angels, all saints, and Mary - every creature, every plant, every cell, every atom that worships God.
I compare it to asking someone to pray for you - it's a similar concept.
Boy, I must really be missing something here.
I interpret "pray" in the same manner as the dictionary:
I take it to mean a form of worship or request.
And I still see nothing in that section of Acts that adresses praying to the dead, or even saints. If I am missing something obvious, I appologize, but I just don't see anything about praying to the dead.
Now, Soulfire expressed something I never heard of, praying WITH the dead. Interesting idea. Is the concept that praying with someone already in heaven will give more weight to the prayers? Or is there some other reason why the living would pray with the dead?
That would be the idea - there's strength in numbers, the more people you have praying for you, the better off is where that concept goes. It's not so simple as "prayer" anymore, like you've heard about intercession and whatnot.
This link helps us to understand that prayer (and the action to pray which depends on this) has taken over time many different shapes and forms:
In this article, under the heading "The Act of Prayer" on the second line is stated that:
"Prayer can be incorporated into a daily "thought life", in which one is in constant communication with God."
Now then, for the Christian, Christ is the second Person of the Most Holy Trinity. He is God. If he sat down, ate and spoke to His disciples after His Death, then we have a sign that there was communication with God and with the dead.
The idea that "prayer" is only when we ask something from God or from the dead is only one aspect. The person in this thread who stated that we can "pray with" the dead instead of "praying to" the dead is closing the brackets on something that is much greater.
A professor in theology always insisted that we often make distinctions.
I can say that i'm talking "with" someone just like i can also talk "to" someone and nothing is necessarily wrong with either form.
I am ATHEIST. So please calm down. I was responding to the guys question in an accurate manner to his religion. That simple. So please actually know what I believe before writing a few paragraphs.
No, this only implies communication with God (Jesus). Even though Jesus was "dead" in a sense, the bigger issue is that he is God and is therefore an object of worship and, by definition, has powers not attributed to mortals. The point, as I understood it, was why are the saints prayed to? I understand Soulfire's idea about praying WITH them. Why pray TO the saints? Talking and praying are not identical activities and I don't think you can use TO and WITH interchangeably. As the definitions that I posted indicate, praying is meant to worship or ask for something. Praying to a Saint or praying with them mean two different things.
We don't seem to be getting anywhere in this conversation. Can someone else help me see what DCM is trying to say?
If "we" stands for Christians from a Catholic point of view then one of the more simple answers is:
Well, that is almost an answer. But I didn't think "Communion" was related to communication in the Catholic Church. Am I wrong? When they talk about the communion of saints, they are talking about the community of christians, dead and alive (1 Corinthians 12, I think).Communion sems to be more of a fellowship of belief, not worship or requests for help, which is what praying is.
Communion of Saints doesn't refer to praying, but the fellowship of us - united with the saints, angels, and God.
Moonspider quoted me. I didn't actually use the word "to". However, in every day life, I guess I do use that word. However it doesn't mean I'm worshipping that saint. It's possible that I'm at fault for the langauge I use, but my point was that we do not worship anyone but God.
When I say I am praying to St. Anthony to help me find something that is lost, I'm really praying to God and asking Saint Anthony to pray with me. When I'm praying the Rosary to Mary, I'm really praying to God and asking Mary to pray with me.
The Catholic Encyclopedia can clear up the Catholic belief.