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Islam,Women and The Veil.





i_am_mine
I recently viewed a televised debate on the wearing of the Hijab or the Veil in by Muslims in Muslim, and recently - in non-muslim countries.

The adoption of this practise by Muslims in non-Islamic countries has sparked off debate - especially in France where any public display of religion is banned.

I shall get back to why France's banning of all public display of religion is , though aimed at achieving a truly homogenous society, is nevertheless fundamentally flawed.

For now I shall focus on the Justification of the veil that was given un this debate by Muslim women.There was the usual " our modesty is tested by Allah, and wearing the Hijab is a way of showing Allah that we are Faithful ". To this I have no answer that does not insult the intelligence of Muslim women, so I shall refrain from comment.

However, the only reason, that multiple women provided, especially those who lived in Britain and France, or were expatriates or residents of the United States was that in this "Modern World", women who are fashionably dressed ( skimpy, "plain well dressed", or otherwise ) invite Crimes of The Western World, committed by Western Men - Rape and Molestation.They further stated that such crimes were virtually in absentia in countries were the Hijab is mandatory-Saudi Arabia in particular was stated.

This truly shows the lack of education provided to Muslim women - even progressive Muslim women.Perhaps it would be more precise to say that they are informed of the facts and fed ideas only selectively.

Were they not selectively informed they would know the following facts:

1.Firstly, that from the few leaked stories of rape that made it to the Media of the "outside world" have shown that Rape in Saudi Arabia is far from non-existent. Rape in such countries brings shame upon the family, and the woman who is the victim is ostricized from society - very often killed in acts of " Honor Killings ". For more on Honor ( or Honour ) Killings, Google. Honor killings have recently been in the spotlight for being prevalent even in Britsh Muslims ( esp., Bangladeshi Immigrants )

2.Secondly, and this is the most important point. The Hijab or the Veil, by suppressing a woman's sexuality, not only denies women a part of themselves, but denies men interaction wih the opposite sex - and when done on such a large scale acute disability to express sexual desire outside their small closed groups - i.e., family.Women are forbidden to interact with anyone outside their immediate family, men in turn as part of a domino effect too, are limited to interaction with family only.
This leads to a crime that is Saudi Arabia's best kept dirty secret - INCEST
.That's right sexual relationships with family members.Saudi Arabia, along with a few other similar closed society countries exhibits wide spread Incest, for this reason, and this reason alone: the suppression of women's sexuality, and the brain-wash of women into believing that it is a symbol of modesty and/or for their protection.

3.The third point, a direct question to the women, and only to be answered by the women would be that by accepting the Hijab on the basis that it is it ensure that the thoughts of men are not corrupted by presence of women, do you not:
a.insult the intelligence of men by reducing them to merely libido-driven, sexually obsessed beings.
b.reduce all women (including yourself), who as you claim have been created by the greatest Engineer and molecular biologist in the History of the Universe ( supposedly God ) to beings that carry no other traits but those of the sexual kind.That you are nothing but sex objects meant for three things: to be ashamed of their sexuality and bodies that were given to them by Allah, and to provide sex and children.

It's about time women were looked upon as more than just Sexual objects or Embryo factories.

Till then, a question : Patriarchical Immaturity or Incest ?

You decide.
nopaniers
This is a complete non-issue. If any woman wants to wear modest clothes, then she can.
STYLAN
IN MY WOMEN HAVE LEAD THEMSELVES BACKWARD.
IN ANCIENT INDIA women in india were given high posts.
but after the british colonial rule
i_am_mine
nopaniers wrote:
This is a complete non-issue. If any woman wants to wear modest clothes, then she can.


The debate is not about modest clothing nopaniers.Modest clothing is certainly a non-issue.The issue is the suppression of women's sexuality in the name of religion and crime.It is about the consequences of a society punishing and brain washing its female population.

In particular it is a factual response to those that think Saudi Arabia is a safe haven for women and a torch bearer for upholding women's rights.It holds infact, probably one of the worst records: http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2000/nea/817.htm
i_am_mine
And I also don't see how this can be a non-issue.It's a direct continuation of this thread here that was started by s3nd k3ys : http://www.frihost.com/forums/vt-55602.html

let me repost s3nd k3ys article:

Quote:
Muslim leader blames women for sex attacks

Richard Kerbaj
October 26, 2006

THE nation's most senior Muslim cleric has blamed immodestly dressed women who don't wear Islamic headdress for being preyed on by men and likened them to abandoned "meat" that attracts voracious animals.

In a Ramadan sermon that has outraged Muslim women leaders, Sydney-based Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali also alluded to the infamous Sydney gang rapes, suggesting the attackers were not entirely to blame.

While not specifically referring to the rapes, brutal attacks on four women for which a group of young Lebanese men received long jail sentences, Sheik Hilali said there were women who "sway suggestively" and wore make-up and immodest dress ... "and then you get a judge without mercy (rahma) and gives you 65 years".

"But the problem, but the problem all began with who?" he asked.

The leader of the 2000 rapes in Sydney's southwest, Bilal Skaf, a Muslim, was initially sentenced to 55 years' jail, but later had the sentence reduced on appeal.

In the religious address on adultery to about 500 worshippers in Sydney last month, Sheik Hilali said: "If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it ... whose fault is it, the cats or the uncovered meat?

"The uncovered meat is the problem."

The sheik then said: "If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred."

He said women were "weapons" used by "Satan" to control men.

"It is said in the state of zina (adultery), the responsibility falls 90 per cent of the time on the woman. Why? Because she possesses the weapon of enticement (igraa)."

Muslim community leaders were yesterday outraged and offended by Sheik Hilali's remarks, insisting the cleric was no longer worthy of his title as Australia's mufti.

Young Muslim adviser Iktimal Hage-Ali - who does not wear a hijab - said the Islamic headdress was not a "tool" worn to prevent rape and sexual harassment. "It's a symbol that readily identifies you as being Muslim, but just because you don't wear the headscarf doesn't mean that you're considered fresh meat for sale," the former member of John Howard's Muslim advisory board told The Australian. "The onus should not be on the female to not attract attention, it should be on males to learn how to control themselves."

Australia's most prominent female Muslim leader, Aziza Abdel-Halim, said the hijab did not "detract or add to a person's moral standards", while Islamic Council of Victoria spokesman Waleed Ali said it was "ignorant and naive" for anyone to believe that a hijab could stop sexual assault.

"Anyone who is foolish enough to believe that there is a relationship between rape or unwelcome sexual interference and the failure to wear a hijab, clearly has no understanding of the nature of sexual crime," he said.





http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20646437-601,00.html
ahamed
It's not a matter of discuss whether muslim women should wear hijab or not. It's totally a religious matter and in islam it necessary for women to wear hijab. People should respect to any religious rules and should not make any debate on it.

If any women doesn't want to wear hijab. it's just her personal matter. And what would be it's return, it's clearly mentioned in the holy quran. Everybody get his return at the end.
nopaniers
If this is direct continuation of another thread then you should post there.
ahamed
i_am_mine wrote:

In particular it is a factual response to those that think Saudi Arabia is a safe haven for women and a torch bearer for upholding women's rights.It holds infact, probably one of the worst records: http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2000/nea/817.htm


definately, it's true here. We expatriates here watching such kind of incidents very often ... where saudi girls or women got raped by the saudi guy ...
ainieas
As far as I know the only mention of women's dressing in the Holy Koran says that-

1. The chest region should be covered.
2. Length of a dress should be below the knee

And these tenants are applicable to men also. There's no mention of any veil. But people do wear the Hizab after Haj.
ibay
ahamed wrote:
It's not a matter of discuss whether muslim women should wear hijab or not. It's totally a religious matter and in islam it necessary for women to wear hijab. People should respect to any religious rules and should not make any debate on it.

If any women doesn't want to wear hijab. it's just her personal matter. And what would be it's return, it's clearly mentioned in the holy quran. Everybody get his return at the end.


There is no mention of Viel and Hijab in Quran and it is not a part of Islam. This is only a matter of personal choice. Quran only asks women to cover their bodies from Neck Down, and not in a particular manner, but it should be modest and non provocative. thats all.
paul_indo
This is true, there is no mention of women covering their faces in al quran.

I feel sure it came from the local dress in the area at the time of islam's inception. No doubt due to the desert conditions in the area.

What amazes me is that so many modern moslems equate arab dress with being a muslim. It is absurd.

For me the real issue here is that many women are forced to comply by their male dominated societies.
freecitizen
Wow, you're a bit of an idiot, eh.

Really, incest, huh? Where'd you pull that little factoid from?
honestman
I think you are ALL missing the point. Muslims who come to this country (Britain) have some duty to accept the culture and laws of Britain. If I went to a muslim country I am constrained by their laws and have to abide by them.

In Britain our culture is not to cover your face to the extent that it actually causes fear and distrust amongst many people in the street.

It is nothing to do with religion and I am sick of ANY group hiding behind religion. This is about not respective the culture of the host country and it annoys me that Muslims in particular appear to be so disrespectful to a host country.

I have on a number of occassions felt intimidated by a group of muslim women having their face covered completely and it also changes the way in which I speak to them. MY CULTURE is that we use facial expressions as a communication medium and if that is available we lose a lot of non-verbal communication. It can cause fear and intimidation.

Muslims must start to think carefully about how they act in other countries. They have to think about modifying their ways by agreeing to wear the coverings in the privacy of their own gatherings if this is what they want, but achnowleding the views of an indigenious population and not wearing them in public where it is not the normal culture to do so.

Jim
nopaniers
I'm Australian. I don't have a problem with muslim people, because where I come from people from all different backgrounds are accepted, regardless of their religious beliefs.

In contrast, I do feel threated by hooded English youths, walking around in groups. I've seen them openly fighting. I've seen them smashing in pub windows and running away for fun, or playing with guns. In fact, in the last fight that I saw, some muslim men together with local taxi drivers broke it up.

Or then there's prostitutes on the street. Why is such a problem to have someone wearing modest clothing, but okay for someone to wear skimpy clothing, and make everyone uncomfortable who walks past? How degrading to women is that?

This whole finger pointing at muslim women is a complete red herring. It has nothing to do with the real problems here, but it gives people a convenient scape-goat to people to avoid real issues.
ainieas
honestman wrote:
I think you are ALL missing the point. Muslims who come to this country (Britain) have some duty to accept the culture and laws of Britain. If I went to a muslim country I am constrained by their laws and have to abide by them.

In Britain our culture is not to cover your face to the extent that it actually causes fear and distrust amongst many people in the street.

It is nothing to do with religion and I am sick of ANY group hiding behind religion. This is about not respective the culture of the host country and it annoys me that Muslims in particular appear to be so disrespectful to a host country.

I have on a number of occassions felt intimidated by a group of muslim women having their face covered completely and it also changes the way in which I speak to them. MY CULTURE is that we use facial expressions as a communication medium and if that is available we lose a lot of non-verbal communication. It can cause fear and intimidation.

Muslims must start to think carefully about how they act in other countries. They have to think about modifying their ways by agreeing to wear the coverings in the privacy of their own gatherings if this is what they want, but achnowleding the views of an indigenious population and not wearing them in public where it is not the normal culture to do so.

Jim



What about skinheads? They don't cover their faces but scare me like hell. Are they not a part of the British culture? Who's going to do anything about them?
i_am_mine
Quote:
For me the real issue here is that many women are forced to comply by their male dominated societies.


Precisely my point.

nopaniers wrote:
Or then there's prostitutes on the street. Why is such a problem to have someone wearing modest clothing, but okay for someone to wear skimpy clothing, and make everyone uncomfortable who walks past? How degrading to women is that?


nopaniers, you're line of argument itself is flawed.are you trying to say that the forceful denial of certain inalienable rights of expression are justifiable by comparing the practice of forced supression of an entire sex to another horrible practice (prostitution)...and saying...." HEY WELL IF PROSTITUTION IS HERE...SO WHY NOT SUPPRESSION? ".

That's like saying it's Grand Theft Auto isn' that bad a crime, because Homicide is even worse.

Secondly, it should also be made clear that suppression of any form expression, may it be of sexual or verbal form is harmful for any society.You will find, surprisingly, that in countries where women and men are are free to live by their own terms ( modest or otherwise ), crimes such as sexual abuse and rape are ( although undeniably present ) much lesser than in countries where it is otherwise.Example: countries such as Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nigeria ( I cannot recall precisely, but I believe this was the country from where the much publicised case of a woman being sentenced to stoning by death for her own rape.reason: she was held liable for being "wantable" to the opposite sex ),India(though predominantly only in rural India ), Saudi Arabia.

Let me point out that when I mean freedom to expression, or the expression sexuality, I do not mean the expansion of the Pornographic Industry or that women should dress to provoke.I simply mean society in which the choice to dress, to come to terms with the fact that there is no shame in being a woman, that by being a woman you are not merely an object of sexual desire, and that you may choose to be modest if you so desire, but that you have the choice - a choice not to dress in a mini if you so desire, but to be able to celebrate your feminity without feeling bad about it.

Why does open expression of Sexuality lead to a healthier society? The seeds of sexual crimes sprout only where it is denied and treated as taboo.Facts and figures, and in countries where there is no such thing as facts and figures, victims accounts prove this point.

Quote:
This whole finger pointing at muslim women is a complete red herring. It has nothing to do with the real problems here, but it gives people a convenient scape-goat to people to avoid real issues.


nopaniersThere is no finger pointing at Muslim Women, IF YOU HAD READ MORE CAREFULLY, you would have noticed how the blame lies with Patriarchical Societies i.e., MEN.Help with the word? :

Quote:
In gender studies, the word patriarchy often refers to a social organization marked by the supremacy of a male figure, group of male figures, or men in general. It is depicted as subordinating women, children, and those whose genders or bodies defy traditional man/woman categorization.


Please read well before you argue.

Again, please read carefully: we are arguing the topic of HIJAB, not modest clothing. Modest clothing, if chosen by free will is in fact also a form of freedom of expression or sexuality ( in case you find yourself too conservative to think that sexuality is a freedom, you may just choose to call it expression ).The fact that a woman choose to dress modest, choose to dress intelligently, choose to make an impact on people around her by using her personality and not her vital stats is, again, a form of sexual expression.

Lastly,
freecitizen wrote:
Wow, you're a bit of an idiot, eh.

Really, incest, huh? Where'd you pull that little factoid from?


Wow, you're a pathetic little piece of trash, eh.

Is that how you always argue?

I take it you sit there sitting on your couch watching Fox News and expecting to actually know what's going on in the world around you.

In one case, I have heard the story from the mouth of a victim.However, for the value of your insignificant viewing pleasure freecitizen, I shall provide you with a few links. Also keep in mind, that since there is virtually no reporting in Saudi Newspapers about such crimes, since incidents are suppressed, what you read is but 1% of the ground reality.

Incidentally I found this brief-report by FOX itself.So maybe you don't even watch obscure news? :

Saudi Gang Rape Victim Punished

Quote:
11/6/2006 - A Saudi victim of gang rape was sentenced to 90 lashes for being alone in a car with a male friend who was not her husband prior to her rape. Seven men reportedly followed the victim and her friend to their car, kidnapped them, and took them to a farm where they raped the woman, Deutsche Presse-Agentur reports. Four men, all married, were convicted of the crime and received sentences ranging from one year in prison and 80 lashes to five years in prison and 1,000 lashes. A fifth man who videotaped the rape on his cell phone still faces investigation, and two other men alleged to have participated in the kidnapping and rape escaped arrest, according to Deutsche Presse-Agentur.

The victim and her male friend both received 90 lashes for being alone together. The victim's husband and family are not disputing these sentences, but announced that they will appeal for harsher penalties for the assailants, FOX reports.


Here's More:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4095824.stm [ and if rape by father-in-law isn't incest, I wonder.... ]

http://xrdarabia.org/blog/archives/2006/10/16/protecting-victims-of-incest/

More sexual abuse in the country of sexual safety:
http://hrw.org/mideast/saudi/labor/

Aaargh.

There's just too many.Google it you "bit of an idiot". Or better yet, try reading printed material, it's more reliable.
i_am_mine
From Philosophy and Religion:

freecitizen wrote:
Evolution --> Deeper Thinking --> Morality


Unfortunately from your perspective, Evolution screwed up by making women the way they are, and they should do their best to cover it up ( completely ).

If you don't subscribe to evolution, then the idea that " everything that God made is perfect " is wrong since he forgot to add a protective membrane around women to shield them from men.

Do you practice what you post ?

Or is all that Evolution->Deeper Thinking->Morality stuff just "a bit idiotic"?
i_am_mine
Quote:
What about skinheads? They don't cover their faces but scare me like hell. Are they not a part of the British culture? Who's going to do anything about them?


Skinheads receive a lot of bad publicity.They're condemned everywhere. And they're just a pale shadow of what they were post WW2 in Germany.I'm not sure about Britain. In a hypothetical situation, in case we let skin heads and nazi's uncondemned, would that mean by that excuse, you'd let every other form of Rascism, Sexism, and every other -ism go free?

Perhaps if we let one rapist, or one murderer, or one mob king-pin go....we should then - by your logic, shut up and let the others go as well?

Democracy is not so much about voting as it is about speaking out.

SPEAK OUT.
freecitizen
"Unfortunately from your perspective, Evolution screwed up by making women the way they are, and they should do their best to cover it up ( completely ).

If you don't subscribe to evolution, then the idea that " everything that God made is perfect " is wrong since he forgot to add a protective membrane around women to shield them from men."

I'm an Atheist. But I felt offended that you think Arabs would practise incest like it's the norm, I'm from Kuwait, which is more open but pretty much like Saudi, generally, so I didn't like that connotation.

In regards to the general idea of covering one's face - I think it's a security issue and I don't think it should be allowed. People could pretend to be covered and commit crimes.

Even in Kuwait, there's a law saying that women who have their face completely covered are not allowed to drive, because it's dangerous.

But I just really don't like Islam (even though my family is Muslim), and the idea of covering your face/hair is idiotic to me, not to mention backwards and oppressive.
i_am_mine
freecitizen wrote:
I'm an Atheist. But I felt offended that you think Arabs would practise incest like it's the norm, I'm from Kuwait, which is more open but pretty much like Saudi, generally, so I didn't like that connotation.

In regards to the general idea of covering one's face - I think it's a security issue and I don't think it should be allowed. People could pretend to be covered and commit crimes.

Even in Kuwait, there's a law saying that women who have their face completely covered are not allowed to drive, because it's dangerous.

But I just really don't like Islam (even though my family is Muslim), and the idea of covering your face/hair is idiotic to me, not to mention backwards and oppressive.


Ah, well. Firstly, excuse me for being harsh on you. But I don't like uneducated replies, and that sends me over the top sometimes.Apologies.

If you've noticed, I haven't mentioned Kuwait as part of any of the Islamic countries that exhibit such social disfunction. Kuwait, infact, if I remember correctly, has been one of the first Islamic countries that have granted women greater freedom, including recently the right to vote.


firstcitizen wrote:
I'm an Atheist. But I felt offended that you think Arabs would practise incest like it's the norm, I'm from Kuwait, which is more open but pretty much like Saudi, generally, so I didn't like that connotation.


Again, let me make it clear. All my posts are purely subjective. I am NOT genarlising ALL Arabs or Muslims in any way.I am not anti-Islamic. My best friends are Muslim, and perhaps the deepest relationship I've shared with anyone was with a Muslim. I'm an atheist. I sway towards no religion, and as such I have no vandetta against any. And if I did, it would be against all. The first post I made was purely subjective, a "study paper " as they like to call at College. It got personal only when uneducated replies were made to it.

People need to understand that it is not Islam that is being discussed here, it is Suppressive Societies.

Christian societies too, at one point in History abused the fairer sex.So did the Chinese ( the famous "foot-binding" practice is just the tip of the Iceberg ), so did Hindu Civilization in it's mid-history.
nopaniers
i_am_mine have you talked to any muslim women about what they wear? They don't agree with you. I am defending their right to wear what they want. You are the one suggesting that they should not be able to.

It is not true that rates of rape (per head of population) are higher in muslim countries. They are higher in the more permissive countries. According to nationmaster the highest rates of rape in the world are
Nationmaster wrote:

#1 South Africa: 1.19538 per 1,000 people
#2 Seychelles: 0.788294 per 1,000 people
#3 Australia: 0.777999 per 1,000 people
#4 Montserrat: 0.749384 per 1,000 people
#5 Canada: 0.733089 per 1,000 people
#6 Jamaica: 0.476608 per 1,000 people
#7 Zimbabwe: 0.457775 per 1,000 people
#8 Dominica: 0.34768 per 1,000 people
#9 United States: 0.301318 per 1,000 people
#10 Iceland: 0.246009 per 1,000 people
#11 Papua New Guinea: 0.233544 per 1,000 people
#12 New Zealand: 0.213383 per 1,000 people
#13 United Kingdom: 0.142172 per 1,000 people
#14 Spain: 0.140403 per 1,000 people
#15 France: 0.139442 per 1,000 people

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita
The first muslim nation is Kyrgystan at #28, and Malaysia at #38. India (not a muslim country, but you mentioned it) lies at #56. Saudi Arabia lies on #65.

For the record, India is predominantly Hindu, and Nigeria is half catholic.

I don't like having women approach me on the street asking if I want sex. I think it's degrading to women, as well as distressing to me. I think what they wear is degrading, as are their pimps (to borrow an American term). I don't like that if I search for any female name on the Internet, I find pornography. This is how we treat women. You say: Oh, these muslims women are so bad for wanting to wear modest clothing. Our societies push women into degrading acts, putting everything under the almighty dollar. I think that it's a completely inappropriate expression of sexuality.

In contrast, dressing modestly is an appropriate form of expression. They are, after all muslims, submissive to God. To dress modestly (which both muslim men and women do), according to their religious beliefs, is their right. Living in a free country, it is every person's right to choose their own religion.

Ask muslim women about it. Go on. Be polite and humble and talk to them. They're very friendly really, and they won't bite your head off. It is you who are trying to force your views on them, not the other way around.
nopaniers
ainieas wrote:
What about skinheads? They don't cover their faces but scare me like hell. Are they not a part of the British culture? Who's going to do anything about them?


I agree.
i_am_mine
nopaniers, when you have absolutely no first hand account and no insight to offer to a discussion, why post links you just Google and vomit back out into a post?

Did you know that the statistics you provide are based on Incidents of rape ACTUALLY REGISTERED WITH THE AUTHORITIES?Did you know that most cases of Rape go UNREGISTERED in Saudi Arabia and countries like Nigeria because punishment within the community and by the community is carried out? Rape victims are stoned to death in Nigera by their own family and fellow villagers, in Pakistan - attacked with Acid, in India - ordered to marry their Rapists?

nopaniers wrote:
I don't like having women approach me on the street asking if I want sex. I think it's degrading to women, as well as distressing to me. I think what they wear is degrading, as are their pimps (to borrow an American term). I don't like that if I search for any female name on the Internet, I find pornography. This is how we treat women. You say: Oh, these muslims women are so bad for wanting to wear modest clothing. Our societies push women into degrading acts, putting everything under the almighty dollar. I think that it's a completely inappropriate expression of sexuality.

In contrast, dressing modestly is an appropriate form of expression. They are, after all muslims, submissive to God. To dress modestly (which both muslim men and women do), according to their religious beliefs, is their right. Living in a free country, it is every person's right to choose their own religion.


Ok, hold on a minute nopaniers, do you actually take the time to READ posts? DO YOU HAVE ANY CLUE WHAT THE TOPIC OF DISCUSSION HERE HAPPENS TO BE? If you had taken the time you would have noticed that I wrote:

i_am_mine wrote:
Again, please read carefully: we are arguing the topic of HIJAB, not modest clothing. Modest clothing, if chosen by free will is in fact also a form of freedom of expression or sexuality ( in case you find yourself too conservative to think that sexuality is a freedom, you may just choose to call it expression ).The fact that a woman choose to dress modest, choose to dress intelligently, choose to make an impact on people around her by using her personality and not her vital stats is, again, a form of sexual expression.


Do you have any clue what Hijab is? And do you have the required amount of Grey Matter to finally understand that we are NOT discussing or arguing against a woman's right to wear modest clothing ? WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A WOMANS RIGHT TO WEAR SOMETHING - ANYTHING - MODEST OR OTHERWISE ! WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A GOVERNMENT THAT ENFORCES A DRESS CODE - ONE THAT COVERS FROM HEAD TO TOE. WE ARE NOT DISCUSSING WHETHER IT SHOULD BE WORN - WOMEN WHO CHOOSE ( AND THE KEY WORD HERE IS CHOOSE ) TO WEAR THE HIJAB SHOULD BE FREE TO DO SO BY ALL MEANS, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE FREEDOM TO CHOOSE. DOES THAT HELP IN UNDERSTANDING THE TOPIC?

Secondly, when you know nothing about Demographics nopaniers, atleast do some research. Do you LIKE to pull things out of thin air for the sake of argument? Safe yourself the embarassment, because if not all, certainly some people actually know the facts:

nopaniers wrote:
For the record, India is predominantly Hindu, and Nigeria is half catholic.


Although Muslims are a minority in India with 13.4%[1] of the Indian population as per Indian Census of 2001, India has the third largest Muslim population in the world after Indonesia and Pakistan.

Would you like to know how that works ? India, as you know is the most populated democracy in India, now do the math take 13.4% of a Billion People, you'll be surprised that a small fraction of a large number equals another large number. To be precise: 13.4% of ONE BILLION PEOPLE.

Would you like to more? Although American, I COME FROM INDIA...I THINK I WOULD KNOW.

Secondly Nigeria - where do yo come up with this stuff ?


Here is the exact ( and I mean EXACT ) data:

Region:Africa
Country:Nigeria
Total Population:126,635,626
Percentage Muslim Population:75.0%
Muslim Population:94,976,720


http://www.factbook.net/muslim_pop.php OR JUST GOOGLE IT.

Will you start getting your facts and you mathematics right?
Let me make this clear 50% is not = 75 %

STONING TO DEATH FOR ADULTERY IN NIGERIA [BBC]: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2202111.stm

Please make educated replies. Don't fake it.
nopaniers
Quote:
Secondly Nigeria - where do yo come up with this stuff ?

My stats come from the CIA world factbook. You quoted from a website on Romanian business.
CIA World Factbook, Nigeria wrote:
Muslim 50%, Christian 40%, indigenous beliefs 10%

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ni.html

Are you disagreeing my statement that India is a predominantly Hindu country? I'm also aware of the bias that many Indians have against muslims in general, and Pakistan in particular. Are you aware that there are more Jews in the US than in Israel? Does that make the US a jewish country? I don't think so.

You are ranting against muslims, picking out individual crimes, is like me saying that all Catholic priests are pedophiles. Its not right to victimize a group based on the actions of the few. Societies are complex things. This dumbing down says much more about you, and your ability to deal with simple differences in clothing style you find in society.

The hijab, to be clear is modest clothing. It is the same sort of clothing which nuns wear.

Moslem women have the right to wear a hijab (or equally for nuns to be able to also wear a veil) without you, governments, or anyone else, critisizing them. That is their fundamental human right.
i_am_mine
I'm sorry, but maybe you ought to look at this:

Quote:

Nigeria’s population is now in the region of 120 million, as per the 1996 census, with Muslims accounting for 80,000,000 (70 percent of the population), with Christianity and animism followers making up the rest of the population.


Please do your homework the right way around.And this time I've quoted from a Muslim Run Organisation: http://www.islamicpopulation.com/nigeria_muslim.html

Quote:
We also wanted to show that, by even taking data from General Sources, like CIA Fact Sheet, we can easily establish that fact that total Muslim Population in 2006 is 1.6 billion which is far greater than currently estimated 1.2 or 1.3 billion. Under general source section, we have taken all the datas from popular sources such as CIA Fact Sheet, HOLT,RINEHART & WINSTON etc.


Go figure.

Quote:
Are you disagreeing my statement that India is a predominantly Hindu country? I'm also aware of the bias that many Indians have against muslims in general, and Pakistan in particular. Are you aware that there are more Jews in the US than in Israel? Does that make the US a jewish country? I don't think so.


How pathetic can your arguments get? If you EVER CARED TO READ MY POST - if I was biased I would have left India out of it, in fact certain Hindu communities still practice the custom of 'Purdah' across the state of Rajasthan - which is not unlike Hijab. Certain backward Hindu communities still carry out the even more sickening practice of 'Sati', or a widow burning herself on the funeral pyre of her dead husband?

Catholic Priests turning into Paedophiles is just as subjective as this is. Would you argue along the same lines and say I hate all Christians because I'm picking on a sticky Christian issue?

You say 'Societies are complex things', and I can give enough reasons connected to society and sexuality that lead to the Sex Scandals at the Catholic Church. These crimes are not individual occurrences. They are a product of the society we live in.

Quote:

You are ranting against muslims, picking out individual crimes, is like me saying that all Catholic priests are pedophiles. Its not right to victimize a group based on the actions of the few. Societies are complex things. This dumbing down says much more about you, and your ability to deal with simple differences in clothing style you find in society.


I REALLY DON'T GET IT. HAVE I NOT MADE IT CLEAR THAT WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT MUSLIMS? WE ARE TALKING ABOUT REPRESSIVE SOCIETIES FOR GOSSAKE' ! WE ARE TALKING ABOUT INDIVIDUAL COUNTRIES - SAUDI ARABIA, NIGERIA, INDIA, PAKISTAN, BANGLADESH - (HINDU,MUSLIM,CHRISTIAN OR OTHERWISE ) WHERE WOMEN'S RIGHTS - IN PARTICULAR SEXUAL RIGHTS ARE ABUSED AND/OR DENIED. COUNTRIES WHERE WOMEN ARE PUNISHED IF RAPED? AM I A MUSLIM HATER IF I SIMPLY WISH TO ADDRESS THESE ISSUES? YOU SAY THEY ARE INDIVIDUAL OCCURRENCES - IT IS LAW...LAW IN BIG CAPITAL LETTERS FOR WOMEN TO GET PUNISHED FOR BEING A VICTIM.

WHAT WILL IT TAKE TO GET IT ACROSS TO YOU THAT WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT A WOMAN'S RIGHT TO WEAR MODEST CLOTHING ! THIS IS A POST TALKING ABOUT HOW A WOMAN SHOULD HAVE THE FREEDOM TO CHOOSE WHAT TO WEAR. CAN YOU NOT UNDERSTAND THAT WE ARE DEBATING THE FORCEFUL IMPLEMENTATION OF THE HIJAB !

ARE YOU LIKE S3NDK3YS? WILL YOU ADDRESS THE ACTUALL
TOPIC OR ARE YOU GOING TO CONTINUE TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING THAT'S NOT BEING DISCUSSED ?


Quote:

The hijab, to be clear is modest clothing. It is the same sort of clothing which nuns wear.


We are not discussing MODEST CLOTHING FOR THE LAST AND FINAL TIME. WE ARE DISCUSSING BEING FORCED TO WEAR SOMETHING.THE KEY WORD IS FORCED. BEING FORCED TO DO SOMETHING.

Quote:

This dumbing down says much more about you, and your ability to deal with simple differences in clothing style you find in society.


Ah, my friend perhaps if you say that I'm incapable of realising that societies are complex structures, maybe I am so. But doesn't this inability to actually grasp what is being discussed - i.e., not clothing style - but the freedom for a woman to decide what she wants. I am not talking about a choice between bikinis and veils - I'm talking about a choice between whites, stripes, blues, polkas, yellows. I'm talking about how it is UNSURPRISING that in such a society in which women are not allowed to make even a fundamental choice such violent crimes against them persist. Society on the outside reflects the working of its insides. Every society does - sections of American society that obsess with physical looks reflect how deep the media, pornographic and otherwise reach into the average psyche, other sections reflect on more conservative leanings, in India the clearly visible new-found affluence ( in the way they dress, educate themselves and consume ) of the middle class reflects a growing economy, while the growing discontent amongst it lower class reflects the growing gap - how the fall of Hindu nationalist parties shows ( although not conclusively ) the fall of religion from the list of priorities for the middle class Hindu.

Every society shows visible signs and behaviour of it INTERNAL working. Perhaps nopanier, it is easy for you to brush me aside, but the same exact point has been made by numerous sociologists, historians and physicists ( yes, physicists, my favorite being Capra's commentary on society ).

Why can you not be MATURE ENOUGH to understand that I am talking about the problems of a society ? Why can you not understand that we are talking about being forced to do something as opposed to having the choice to do it? Sure someone might like to dress as a Nun - but don't you think you're government would be going too far if it ORDERED you to dress like a Nun? Can you understand NOW what we are talking about? Can you understand that such actions by a Government or society reflect on the workings of its innards?

Can you try an understand I'm not muslim bashing here? I'm talking about individual countries? Would it appease you, would it help to contribute intelligently to this discussion if I started another topic pointing out all the wrong doings, all the hypocrisy of India and it's Hindus?

I wasn't joking when I said that the closest relationship I have is with a Muslim. Let me make myself clear : I don't give a flying rats-ass about religion with reference to this topic. I started this topic as plainly subjective topic. You continue to destroy it's academic intentions by making me feel like I have made it personal. Which I have clearly stated it's not. You continue overlooking the actual topic. Perhaps next time I shall start a Christian bashing or Hindu bashing topic and you will assume the same line of argument.

And as I leave, let me fix a small error you made. The Hijab that women are FORCED ( and that really is the topic of discussion ) to wear looks like this, the one you post shows an Unovered face.THAT is prohibited in Saudi Arabia..These are what Saudi Arabians must wear, without choice:



This type of hijab is used in Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan.
ainieas
The veil doesn't affect anything. Men behave the same way everywhere. If you want to see for youurself, see the video I've posted. But I'll warn you its bloody disgusting. So be warned,

http://thatdamnboy.frih.net/images/SA_yngstrs_evtsng.3gp
i_am_mine
o......k.

this isn't the place to be sharing mobile phone videos.I know you run a site dedicated to "hot wallpapers and videos for your phone", but there's other places to post for that.
i_am_mine
oh and one more thing nopaniers, while you suddenly change this into a disussion about targetting Islam ( which is your imagination at work, not my topic's fault ), why don't I see you standing up for Islam where it really matters....ooooh let's say where it is OPENLY being targetted and bashed. Where arabs are generalised and humiliated? Like here, by our dearest friend s3ndk3ys? :

s3ndk3ys wrote:
I suppose if you really wanted to have a bunch of radical islamics running amuck blowing ****** up and raping your wife and blaming her for it and "be-heading those who say Islam is violent" and keeping your family poor and starving so they can control you easier and forcing you to pray to Allah or Muhammad or who the hell ever, I could see why you'd think Bush was a bigger threat to your "peace".


If you really were thinking about protecting the rights of muslims and respecting Islam you'd contribute to this discussion in a constructive fashion, instead ignoring the topic and ranting on about something that has nothing to do with it.As pointed out, nowhere in the Q'ran does it say that the Saudi Arabian Hijab is compulsory.What we are discussing is not Anti_Q'ran, Anti-Religion, Anti-Arab or Anti-Anything. We are discussing the forceful application of an absurd law that sidelines women's rights to choose.
ainieas
i_am_mine wrote:
o......k.

this isn't the place to be sharing mobile phone videos.I know you run a site dedicated to "hot wallpapers and videos for your phone", but there's other places to post for that.


Trust me I've no intention of promoting my site thru that video. I'll never host something like that. I posted that because of the relevance to the topic. Cause the bottomline is - its a men dominated world and no matter what a woman wears, she'll always be looked down upon as a sexual being.

So what purpose did the hijab serve?

BTW I stand by my earlier post the the Holy Koran does not endorse the burqa/hijab.
i_am_mine
ainieas wrote:
Cause the bottomline is - its a men dominated world and no matter what a woman wears, she'll always be looked down upon as a sexual being.

So what purpose did the hijab serve?

BTW I stand by my earlier post the the Holy Koran does not endorse the burqa/hijab.


That's precisely what I was trying to discuss ainieas. I wasn't discussing Islam.


Oh well, a topic wasted for want of sane arguement and comprehension skills.

*sigh*
honestman
Nopaniers, u say you have a human right to wear what u want and that is true, but what you forget and most muslims forget is that other people have rights to. I have right to see the face of the person im speaking to, rather han some faceless person speak to me and expect me to reply. I wont reply in that case and I have that right. I will NOT be told in MY country what other immigrants can do to me. You have to conform to a certain extent to your horsts country's culture and not try and impose yours on it. Its called felxibility and compromise and tollerance, something islam does not appear capable of.
Bondings
I have to agree with honestman on this. Although I think people should have the right to wear anything they want, there should be restrictions whenever contact is required, simply due to respect and to recognize people (face).

Hence if you wear a hijab or similar in a bank, store, school, work, ... shouldn't be allowed in general, while on other places there should be no problem.

About a veil, in my opinion it shouldn't be allowed on official pictures, like for a passport or ID cards and all other things when authentication is required like in a police station or bank.
ainieas
Bondings wrote:

About a veil, in my opinion it shouldn't be allowed on official pictures, like for a passport or ID cards and all other things when authentication is required like in a police station or bank.


I totally agree. If you're wearing a veil in a picture indentification card what is the point of having the picture. Behind the veil might be just about anybody. And if a driving lisense is issued to a person who's wearing a veil in the picture and that person drives with a veil on, I don't want to be anywhere near the road where they might drive by!
arkebuzer
i_am_mine: You got any realiable source for that info? For example the incest deal sounds quite extreme in my ears, maybe you are right, but I´d prefer if you could provide a source.
smarter
Respect for the other is one VALUE of democracy. Being able to express yourself and your beliefs is another VALUE of democracy.

Here we have an apparent conflict between these values caused by misunderstanding.

A value is valid as long as it doesn't conflict with other values. Anyone CAN wear specific clothes so that he/she can express freely his/her beliefs as long as those clothes are not considered inappropriate. Hiding your face in public places is indeed plain disrespect for the others ("I don't care to talk to you! I don't care what you think about me! Back off!")

The only protection of our society is to reject extremism of any kind.
BlockUp
No woman is forced to wear a hijab by Islam. It is not one of the five pillars, and neither is it madatory. At no point in the Quran does it state the wearing of a hijab of veil is mandatory. It states that both sexes must dress modestly, and a woman may cover her head if she wishes. If any of these Saudi women want to leave their counrty and move to another where they want to remove their hijab, it is up to them. It is wrong to blame something on a religion; it is the fanatics and the twisted, uneducated media who spread stuff like this. I know exactly what I'm talking about, because I am a Muslim. This is the truth.

Bondings wrote:
About a veil, in my opinion it shouldn't be allowed on official pictures, like for a passport or ID cards and all other things when authentication is required like in a police station or bank.

Yes, this is already in place in Britain. Any official photos you should not wear a veil. Also, the hijab must not cast shadows on your face and cause doubt. And I can understand that people find it difficult to talk to people with veils on, even I do. I agree that they should be flexible and tolerant, like honestman said, but I do not agree that Islam in an intolerant religion, I believe the opposite. However circumstances are different; having read the Qur'an I understand a lot more about what is going on here.

I hope I have given a frank, open but not biased response, because I like to know that people value what I have to say.
nopaniers
honestman: I'm not sure what country you come from, but in all the countries have been in there was a mix of people from all different backgrounds. It's not true to assume that muslims are immigrants - many have been living there/here just as long as you have.

In a quick walk around the city this weekend, I did a quick count. Of the 39 people covering all or part of their head, 3 covered their face apart from their eyes. None of these were muslims. 4 of the remaining 36 were muslim women - by far the most common form of hair covering being a tracksuit hood. It seems to me from my small sample that many more non-muslims cover their face and/or hair than muslims.

If someone insists on being rude when they meet people who don't share the same culture, then I can't stop that. I try to be polite to who-ever I meet. Who knows, I might even learn something new Wink
nerox
honestman
Quote:

Muslims must start to think carefully about how they act in other countries. They have to think about modifying their ways by agreeing to wear the coverings in the privacy of their own gatherings if this is what they want, but achnowleding the views of an indigenious population and not wearing them in public where it is not the normal culture to do so.

ok that sounds logical, so every girl who comes to arabic and muslim countries must respect the culture of the hosting country and wear the hijab i'm i right?
or it's possible for britishe ppl to visite arabic countries and don't respect their culture and ask the muslims to respect the culture of britishe ppl???
that's ur logique?
when uk was colonising the arabe countries they were respecting arabic culture or trying to smach it and destray it??? the britishe ppl r the last ones who can tlk aout respecting cultures coz they don't repect none!
paul_indo
I have been living here in Indonesia for abou t 8 years now.
It is 90% muslim and believe me rape and sexual violence against children is way higher than in Australia.

You will only read about the worst cases in the news, often because the victim was murdered afterwards.
Of the girls I have met here I am amazed how many admit to being raped at some stage while they were a teenager.
None of them reported the crime for 2 main reasons.
They do not want people to know as it would be extremely embarrasing for them also the police are so corrupt here that unless you pay them they rarely investigate crime, they would never take the word of a poor village girl over that of the assailant.
Most reported cases come when family or friends find out, often due to the injuries sustained by the victim requirig them to be taken to a doctor who then realises what has happened.

The majority suffer in silence.

You will never get accurate figures for rape or sexual assault from countries like Indonesia.
skinnykhalida
look at those american women, they are the uneducated ones. theyre all sluts and hoes and bitches. so in your terms, education is going and getting ****** and having a risk of getting rape for a few lowsy dollars.
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