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Religion and faith in God, are meant to lead to a higher level of morality.
Do we see this happening in our present world?
I believe in Jesus Christ the Saviour, and His word (The Bible), and it plainly foretold of a world that will go towards unacceptable level of moral degeneration, and then He will come again to judge.
God of the Bible revealed He first judge man for sin.
He again destroy the world (less few and the animals) when the world moral standard goes toward unimagineable levels.
We need only see how the governments of the world openly embrasing casinos, horse racing, legal prostitution, legal drug programme - all with the reason of being pragmatic for survival.
We also see how female taking on new level of exposure that never before has happened. Inner wear used as outer wear. All these done in full public view and even on medias.
We also see escalating level of divorce rate, and in some countries living together as "friends".
We still see homosexuality coined as "alternative lifestyle".
I think the greatest challenge for one who practice faith and religion is to dare goes against this world moral standard and live true to our faith and practices.
It takes pride and guts to stand against the wiles of the world (the devil).
I hope to see more calls to uphold rather than compromise our moral standards.
As opposed too Inquisitions, religious oppression and persecution, stoning of homosexuals, woman as second class citizens or having no rights at all, people being punished for having sex?
Which seems more morel?
| shenyl wrote: | | I hope to see more calls to uphold rather than compromise our moral standards |
What is the point of this post other than the creation of yet another soapbox upon which you wish to stand and either preach to the converted or raise the ire of those who prefer their own path rather than being guided like mindless sheep by some great Shepherd?
| shenyl wrote: | | Religion and faith in God, are meant to lead to a higher level of morality. |
As pointed out so eloquently by Conspirator, Religion and Morality have very little to do with each other. Just ask those little boys who have learned from many a preacher that the holy spirit is not just about praying.
| shenyl wrote: | | I believe in Jesus Christ the Saviour, and His word (The Bible), and it plainly foretold of a world that will go towards unacceptable level of moral degeneration, and then He will come again to judge |
Good on ya! .. I am definitely not knocking you, your faith or any of your beliefs. You are entitled to follow whatever path you choose and to be guided by whatever belief system you like. You are just as entitled to embrace the holy spirit as a homosexual is entitled to embrance his chosen same sex partner. The difference however is a homosexual is not so arrogant as to try and convince you that his lifestyle is better than yours and that you should start taking members of the same sex into your bed.
Where is your argument? Where is your reasoning? Other than statements of blind faith what exactly are you tring to achieve?
This subject line just begs for great and interesting argument but your generalisations are broad to the point of absurdity.
Thank you for highlighting the gap between various crimes.
Good, I guess this started some reactions, and in a way, I expected this sort of replies.
What has Survival and Morality in common?
I like to say some people has weighted morality in monetary terms and then compare it with prosperity of a nation.
End result is Survival wins, morality can be forego.
Similarly, what has religion and morality have in common?
If we use wrong doing of some and say which is the greater sin,
we are actually putting our weightage on morality.
Morality in God's sight - sin is sin, no lesser or greater sin.
Wrong is wrong, there is no argument for doing wrong because some others have committed worse wrong/offences or sin.
My original intent is for voices to support clear cut truth, as opposed to compromising or a comparative between bigger and lesser wrongs.
I hope, I don't sound preachy, but hah, we are in the religion forum.
With regards.
Correct me if I am wrong ... according to to Christianity, Jesus died for our sins. I can therefore live a life of complete amorality and debauchery and so long as I repent before I die and beg Gods forgiveness I will be absolved of my sins and welcomed in heaven with open arms. Yet ... if I renounce God but still live a pure and good life, helping others and being charitable I will be shut out of heaven.
Morality in the do-good religious sense is therefore irrelevant ... is it not? ... The key it would seem is to get the timing right.
| shenyl wrote: | | My original intent is for voices to support clear cut truth |
Who's truth? Should you not rephrase this "My orignal intent is seeking the validation of my own beliefs through the supportive bleating of the flock?"
You are right and perhaps I am being overly harsh, this is a Religion forum, but it is also a Philosophy forum. Religion it itself is a Philosophy. Any philosopher however would get cut to ribbons by simply stating a few choice axioms and expecting everyone to embrace it.
| shenyl wrote: | What has Survival and Morality in common?
I like to say some people has weighted morality in monetary terms and then compare it with prosperity of a nation.
End result is Survival wins, morality can be forego. |
Im not sure what you are getting here .. in your original post you intimated homosexuality and the reduction in cloth covering female bodies as being immoral. What does this have to do with Survival and money. Could you elaborate a little more please? Does it mean that women cannot afford sufficient cloth to adorn themselves properly? Perhaps this is an economic problem?
| Quote: | | I can therefore live a life of complete amorality and debauchery and so long as I repent before I die and beg Gods forgiveness I will be absolved of my sins and welcomed in heaven with open arms |
Not if you go into it with that attitude.
I see lots of heat generated, and I do not expect to challenge one to become a christian.
However, the truth must not be hidden.
The Bible has reveal lots of true life examples of people who repent, and the way they lived after those repentance - newness of life, yet no spotless.
Romans (A book in the Bible) clearly rebute those who continue in sin, because they are saved by grace (Free salvation by Jesus Crist) through their faith (make possible by the Holy Spirit to believe).
True christains do not live a "habitual sinful" lifestyle, only to be saved at the gate of death. Even the story of the deading thief, who repented at the cross beside Jesus, express this repentance from sin, by telling the other thief off, that they deserve their crucifixion, but not for Jesus. This same thief, infact mock at Jesus when they were hung. But he changed his belief when he saw how Jesus reacted to the mockery and how He care for those who are around Him. Yes, at the dying bedside, one can still be saved, but it is rare and few.
Hay, may we live life with our conscience alive, and not seared and deaden by our attitude of indifference to sin.
I will conclude that my reference to Survival and Immorality is to reveal that society has put a different "weightage" to immorality, such that immorality can be compare with many issues of life, and then immoral activities can legally be accepted. Can one attach a value to "wrong" and then turn its status to "right"?
I am sorry for such a lenghty reply - which makes me preachy.
With regards Asgardsfall.
shenyl: Morality is needed for the survival of ones DNA, for social creatures to survive as social creators there has to be rules (and even non social creators need rules for when they meet each other, mating and territory). do not steel with out just cause, do not kill with out just cause, do not betray people and do not rape, do not harm with out a just cause. Those who steel have a grater chance of death thus a less of a chance of passing on there DNA, those who kill have a grater chance of death thus a less of a chance of passing on there DNA, those who betray people have a grater chance of death thus a less of a chance of passing on there DNA, those who rape make enemy's thus have a grater chance of death thus a less of a chance of passing on there DNA, those who do harm to others have a grater chance of death thus a less of a chance of passing on there DNA.
So the morel person has a grater chance of passing on there DNA and the fact that atheists have morels, thus a sense of morality being genetic makes sense and is highly plausible. More plausible;e than morality coming from some God.
Hello to The Conspirator, the mention of just cause implied that the people who set out the rules have a sense of right and wrong. This comes from our conscience. It was there and they use it to set out the rules. Several thousand years ago, God has given man a set of 10 commandments and since then, many human institutions have use it directly or indirectly to set their rules and laws.
God's law is meant to show and keep those who do wrong.
There is NO LAW on doing the right thing. This is so even in human instituted laws.
No law to govern recreation/sex in the God ordained way - Not so for procreation with prostitutes, with multiple sex partners, etc.
No law to save life, no law to show true care and concern, no law to do acts of selfless kindness.
By the way, homosexual cannot preserve DNA, and is this lawful and does not their conscience opposed the acts?
Morality is linked to conscience, even human science acknowledge this - I read about it in a recent article in Readers Digest, and studies on people who seem not to have conscience. It is not don't have, but rather seared and harden by repeatedly opposing their conscience.
Thank you for raising this issue. With regards.
You missed my point, a sense of morality is a genetic thing, we are programed to have a morality.
Atheists give just as much as theists, atheists are just as kind, compassionate and giving as theists, you don;t need rules and laws to make people do those things.
No, homosexuals conscience dose not appose those acts cause they are not wrong, they are not harming any one.
If you do harm, that is wrong, bad, evil. If help out others, that is right and good. No need for a god to have morality.
As I believe Gandhi once said: "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians."
Conspirator, you mentioned many obviously immoral actions of the Church throughout history, but you cannot judge a philosophy/religion on the acts of some of its followers. We (well, most people) don't say that Islam=terrorism just because a few terrorists committed their acts in the name of Allah. Nor do we suggest that Marxism is evil just because Stalin, Hitler, and Mussolini all used it as justification to kill and gain dictatorship.
I am confused though, you said that morality was determined through evolution, because moral people tended to survive better, thus they became more dominant and morality became essentially instinctual (correct me if I'm wrong in my interpretation of what you are saying). And yet your reply about homosexuality is that it is not wrong because it didn't harm people. While it doesn't harm people, shenyl is right that it doesn't promote passing on of DNA, so it doesn't seem to make sense for it to qualify as moral.
Good quote.
I never said all Christens are bad, I don't believe in generalising groups of people based on race, ethnicity or religion. Christens keep trying to paint Christianity (the religion itself) as morally superior to atheism, Islam, paganism and so on.
I said a sense of morality, not the morality of the person. The morality differs in the person but they still have a sense of morality, a sense of right and wrong, good and evil. That is why people who do horrible things always have some justification no matter how insane.
I see that we are engaged in an issue that is hard to have a proper closure.
I would like to mention that morality is more than measuring the harmfulness of an act against others. If the act harms ourselves and even our spouse, it is wrong and it is thus sinful.
Homosexuality harms, in that it is not the intended activity God has design humanity for. Sex is meaningful in the confine of a marriage between man and woman - for pleasure and for procreation.
I am hitting against anyone, but stating what I stand up for. I live in a society that has label homosexuality as alternative life style, and even organise homosexual gathering on Sentosa. I am sadden that these people could not see the original intend of marriage.
I am glad that each are willing to speak up for what they believe, and I do hope some will see light out of these messages.
With regards.
The original purpose of marriage was to move property from one generation to another by ensuring the children are biological children of the husband.
Homosexuality dose not harm any one, it doesn't matter if a god exists or not and what his intentions where if one exists.
No one can prove the harmfulness or harmlessness of homosexuality by discourse using words. I guess we have each stated our stance on this matter. Others who have different views please do comment.
Let time and situations proves our belief on this matter.
To me God exists and He will be the righteous Judge.
With regards.
| Quote: | | No one can prove the harmfulness or harmlessness of homosexuality |
Yes there is, there would have to be evidence that it dose harm, there is none.
May I point out that when it comes to "moral decline" it would be wise to follow the money. The culture is driven by the media and the media is run by conservatives. Before you scream liberal!! let me make a point. GE, Disney, Viacom, Fox, NYTimes and Washington Post CO have interlocking boards. By that I mean each company has on its Board of Directors, members who share board seats with other companies. The companies include: Exxon?mobil, IBM, JP Morgan, Chase Manhattan, Citigroup, Chevron, Microsoft, Lockheed-Martin, Westinghouse, Bank of America and the Carlyle Group. All of these companies are heavily Conservative...back right wing Republican politicians (and left wing as well)...care only about the bottom line and are creating, pushing, publicizing and benefiting from "moral decay" as well as the war. I think it would be in everyone's best interests to see where all this coming from, who is benefiting and who's in the closet. 
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