Pick up any community related to Iran on orkut and you will find it. Most people of Iran think, that Islam is being forced on them.
http://www.orkut.com/UniversalSearch.aspx?q=Iran&pno=1&searchFor=A
http://www.orkut.com/Community.aspx?cmm=58256
http://www.orkut.com/Community.aspx?cmm=84337
You will find that all Iran related communities are full with anti-islamic topics. They want freedom from the islamic rule. They hate Arabs and Pakistanis. They like Indian culture, and hate islamic culture. They think that Islam is destroying their Aryan identity.
Does generalising about an entire population based on an anonymous, self-selecting, non representative, and statistically tiny sample of internet postings not strike you as a potentially dodgy thing to do ? It should! The fact that the Iranian posters are using the internet at all means they are more likely to be academics, radicals or youths than more representative members of the population since those groups are known to be much higher than average users of internet chat, message and mail systems. That automatically means that the number of anti-establishment postings will be skewed. You can see an example of this type of skew by looking at a teenage site in, say, the US and monitoring pro and anti government comment.
I would advise consulting some slightly more reputable and statistically/politically and socially varied sources before jumping to any conclusions. Here are a few starting points.....
http://www.iranian.ws/cgi-bin/iran_news/exec/view.cgi/2/1639
http://www.ccc.nps.navy.mil/si/nov03/middleEast2.asp
http://www.globalthink.net/global/dsppaper.cfm?ArticleID=209
http://pewforum.org/events/index.php?EventID=120
http://www.newschool.edu/centers/socres/vol70/issue703.htm#kar
http://www.iranian.com/opinion.html
http://www.niacouncil.org/us-iran.asp
http://www.iraniantruth.com/
Regards
Chris I think what he meant to say was...
| Quote: |
| People of Iran need to realise that Radical Islam is being forced on them |
A community is better than a website, if you want to know openion of people. Search for Iran in orkut. Send me link of any Iranian community, which is supporter of Islam.
| S3nd K3ys wrote: |
think what he meant to say was...
| Quote: | | People of Iran need to realise that Radical Islam is being forced on them |
|
They already realise it. 
| Quote: |
| A community is better than a website, if you want to know openion of people. Search for Iran in orkut. Send me link of any Iranian community, which is supporter of Islam. |
No, it's not, for reasons already given.
As for checking the site out...err...no thanks.
Chris. | nam_siddharth wrote: |
Send me link of any Iranian community, which is supporter of Islam.
|
This should be interesting.
Tsk, Bikerman is right. You're hardly picking a random sample. Haven't you heard about the infamous 1936 Literary Digest poll of the US presidential election? That's the textbook case of how poor sample selection can create meaningless results. i suggest you look it up, because it's powerfully relevant in this case. (You might also want to look up the "false consensus" cognitive bias, just as a side note.)
| nam_siddharth wrote: |
| Send me link of any Iranian community, which is supporter of Islam. |
A whole lot of bad data ≠ one single good datum.
While it may be true that the majority of Iranians are not happy with the status quo (i've seen statistics anywhere from 60-80%), the way you're collecting your numbers simply isn't correct. You can't judge the opinions of a country like Iran by its internet population. Did you even bother to confirm that those that call themselves "Iranians" are actually in Iran and not simply Iranians living in the US, Canada or Britain?
Are you familiar with the Bay of Pigs fiasco? In basing their decision whether or not to invade Cuba, the US relied on opinion polls conducted almost exclusively amongst Cuban exiles in Florida. The results showed that Castro was immensely unpopular and that a US-enforced "regime change" would be welcomed with open arms.
Didn't happen that way.
i don't think anyone would dispute your results, given increasing news reports of student protests and unrest in Iran. But dude, your methods blow. nam_siddharth, I also have to agree with the others, it's definately not a good sample to conclude these kind of things.
First of all, by my knowledge Iran is banning access to Orkut. So people accessing it are either not living in Iran or purposely bypassing the security measures. Those people don't like the censureship/government by definition.
Secondly, internet access is rare in Iran and only available to the elite/students, if at all. That's not the average kind of people.
| Indi wrote: |
Tsk, Bikerman is right. You're hardly picking a random sample.
|
I don't know, Indi, I really don't.
Kids these days, what can you do ?
You point out a basic anomoly with their sample selection and they look at you like you've just tried to use a binomial analysis on a multi-variable distribution...cheeky young devils...
| Quote: |
A whole lot of bad data ≠ one single good datum.
|
You try tellin 'em and they won't listen. In my day we had to do our cluster, stratified and quota sampling by hand using nothing more than a phonebook and an old dart from the pub. Nowadays it's all done by computers...they don't know they're born !
Chris 
It happens, it's happening all around - Muslim regimes force Islam unto their people. That's just the way it works, irreversable? Well, we'll have to see what the Iranians can come up with.
| Soulfire wrote: |
| It happens, it's happening all around - Muslim regimes force Islam unto their people. That's just the way it works, irreversable? Well, we'll have to see what the Iranians can come up with. |
Well, let's see if you can spot which leaders in the ME did NOT try or even want to force Islam on the population and actually worked for the reverse outcome most of the time,,? Your starter for 10, buzz with the answer when ready.....
Bzzzzz.....Yes, correct for 10 points. The answer is the old tyrant humself, Saddam.Even if Saddam was a relatively non-theist government, you're correct in labelling him as a tyrant - because he was.
Hmm, you are not in a great position to say that Iranians prefer Indian culture, since you are Indian yourself. It sounds to me like you're being extremely biased against Iran.
Last edited by BlockUp on Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
| Soulfire wrote: |
| Even if Saddam was a relatively non-theist government, you're correct in labelling him as a tyrant - because he was. |
Err...that'll be why I said it then, do you think ?
You raised the issue and I simply pointed out the obvious exception. There is no 'even if', by the way. It WAS a relatively non-theist government. After sanctions, of course, Saddam was forced to play the good muslim because he needed support from his neighbours.
Chris.Well, I won't talk about Iran because I don't know much about it while at the same time I say that the internet communities are NOT enough to make a good sample to judge a tiny community not a large country like Iran. One more thing to say about Iran is that Muslims are different and seperate into smaller groups (but have the same main rules) and Iran have the smallest group and least supported group by other muslim groups... why so? ... don't ask me. You better ask some one who knows more than I do.
The Main RULE in ISLAM is:
"No force to spread Islam".
The Quran (the holy book of Muslims) says:
"Call for Islam using wisdom and advice and discuss it with them"
(of course a letterally translation). And Saddam and every other arabian ruler and leader knows very good that their people will never give up on Islam or convert to any other religion so they won't try to force people in the first place to make them join Islam.
And if we look at Iraq, the small group there of Muslims which is called Shie'a and the largest group of muslims called Sonna were living together in peace till the time Saddam fell down.
And in Egypt, Muslims live side by side with the Christians and no side is trying to affect the other one. Islam is not as bad as what the media has made of Islam like a terror and an awakened monster. I see the complete wrong picture of Islam in the USA and the Europian Media... search a little on the internet about islam from the arabian sites like
http://english.islamway.com/
or
http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/MainPage/indexe.php
or
http://www.islamonline.net/English/index.shtml
then judge Islam.
And by the way, the most strong leaders in the ME are the KSA, Oman, Qatar, Egypt and the UAE. These countries use democracey supported by Islam itself to lead their countries... and they are succeeding at it. After a little time searching the internet i found this link directory and it's all in english to know more about islam.
http://sultan.org/
This contains subjects like:
- The Holy Quran the Main Source in Islam
- 7 Reasons to Read the Glorious Quran
- Who Wrote The Quran? (PDF)
- Most Common Questions asked by Non-Muslims
- God Concept In Islam
- Understanding Islam and Muslims
- The Origin of Life - an Islamic Perspective
- Why were we Created?
- Some Benefits of Islam & Islam's Features
- Explore & Discover & Be Convinced That Islam Is The truth !
- Why do Muslims think that Islam is true ? Is there any factual basis ?
- Islam! - The Modern Alternative - Why Islam is good for you !
- Science Leads to Islam
- Islam and Science
- Some Scientists Declaration about The Holy Quran and Islam
- Oneness of God (Allah) : The Solution to the Trinitarian Controversy
- Islam: Misunderstood throughout the World
- Orientalism, Misinformation and Islam
- Racism and Islam
These are a few of what this site can tell about islam. Then I'm waiting for your judgement. | TrueFact wrote: |
And by the way, the most strong leaders in the ME are the KSA, Oman, Qatar, Egypt and the UAE. These countries use democracey supported by Islam itself to lead their countries... and they are succeeding at it. |
No, sorry, I cannot let that pass. I have taken the Muslim side in most debate around this issue, but I must challenge the use of 'democracy' here.
UAE is a federation based on a constitution but without normal democratic controls.
Sudan has suspended elections until at least 2008 and although there is basic elements of democracy present, the system is still a hierarchical federation.
Oman is a monarchy where the monarch is also head of Government so major power is still concentrated with the monarch. The elected judicial and legislative arms of government follow democratic models to some extent but are largely advisory and consultative with little executive power.
Qatar - Sultanate with no legislative elections since 1970 and the crown Prince Amir HAMAD holding power with the positions of Minister of Defense and Commander-in-chief of the Armed Forces.
Egypt - Republic - probably the closest of the bunch to a western style democracy even though it has a ban against religiusly based political parties (to forstall any muslim takeover of power one suspects).
Whilst non of these countries is anything like as despotic and endemocratic as (say) the SA system, it is not correct to class them as democracies. There is, I think, a sense of purpose in their current shift towards representative democracy though, and I do not wish to disparage or belittle the achievements made so far which in most cases have been significant from what I know.
Regards
Chris | TrueFact wrote: |
After a little time searching the internet i found this link directory and it's all in english to know more about islam.
http://sultan.org/
This contains subjects like:
- The Holy Quran the Main Source in Islam
- 7 Reasons to Read the Glorious Quran
- Who Wrote The Quran? (PDF)
- Most Common Questions asked by Non-Muslims
- God Concept In Islam
- Understanding Islam and Muslims
- The Origin of Life - an Islamic Perspective
- Why were we Created?
- Some Benefits of Islam & Islam's Features
- Explore & Discover & Be Convinced That Islam Is The truth !
- Why do Muslims think that Islam is true ? Is there any factual basis ?
- Islam! - The Modern Alternative - Why Islam is good for you !
- Science Leads to Islam
- Islam and Science
- Some Scientists Declaration about The Holy Quran and Islam
- Oneness of God (Allah) : The Solution to the Trinitarian Controversy
- Islam: Misunderstood throughout the World
- Orientalism, Misinformation and Islam
- Racism and Islam
These are a few of what this site can tell about islam. Then I'm waiting for your judgement. |
hm, many of us understood what Islam stands for but the problem is those Radical guys and most of the Muslim countries don't come out bashing against them. This looks like they are rather supporting(at least inwardly, why not issue fatwa against any of those moves by Imams somewhere. To tell you frankly many of us are afraid to write anything against them even on the internet 
) those radical movements that we see everywhere these days. And this in turn could give a bad name to many good people or has it already given them the name? That is the concern of many of us who love our brethern, who are good people, it is not justified to club them together with terrorists....Just want to say...
There is no force in Islam..Thats mean that you're free to choose Islam as your religion..But as you're already Muslim..then you must obey all the Do and Dont
| TrueFact wrote: |
The Main RULE in ISLAM is:
"No force to spread Islam". |
| creezalird wrote: |
| There is no force in Islam..Thats mean that you're free to choose Islam as your religion.. |
What the Qur'an says (generally) is that you shouldn't be the aggressor. However, once fighting has started, you're free to use any amount of force to butcher/humiliate/whatever non-believers until they submit... or you kill them.
Precisely what counts as aggression varies - sometimes it's actually being attacked, sometimes it's just when someone does not allow you pray in their house. But the plain fact is that to say "do not use force to spread Islam" is a tenet of Islam is a bald-faced lie.
(All emphasis and notes in italics are mine)
| Quran wrote: |
[3:151] We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve because they ascribe unto Allah partners (because they create gods or other things that they claim are equal to Allah), for which no warrant hath been revealed (without justification/when it's not true). Their habitation is the Fire, and hapless the abode of the wrong-doers.
[4:89] They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them, (don't be friends with non-muslims - if someone was muslim but has turned away, kill them)
[8:59] And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape.
[8:60] Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others beside them whom ye know not. Allah knoweth them. Whatsoever ye spend in the way of Allah it will be repaid to you in full, and ye will not be wronged. (prepare to war against non-muslims - spare no expense)
[9:1] Freedom from obligation (is proclaimed) from Allah and His messenger toward those of the idolaters with whom ye made a treaty.
[9:2] Travel freely in the land four months, and know that ye cannot escape Allah and that Allah will confound the disbelievers (in His Guidance).
[9:3] And a proclamation from Allah and His messenger to all men on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage that Allah is free from obligation to the idolaters, and (so is) His messenger. So, if ye repent, it will be better for you; but if ye are averse, then know that ye cannot escape Allah. Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve,
[9:4] Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him).
[9:5] Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
(if you make a treaty with non-muslims, you can travel freely amongst them for four months, telling them of their impending doom at the hands of allah's minions. if the non-muslims do nothing against you - such as supporting another enemy, or even something simple not allowing burqa or preaching islam in the streets - keep the treaty. Otherwise, after four months, kill them all.)
[9:28] O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.
[9:29] Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
(keep non-muslims out of mecca. fight those who have heard the words of islam but do not follow. fight them until they pay you; you have humiliated them) |
