I read in a newspaper a few days back(I am in India) about a young boy of 8 years suddenly discovering his past life, forcing his parents to take him to his previous village and then recognizing his "sons" and "grandsons" who are aged more than 40!
This boy remembers everything and infact convinced the whole village that he is indeed the re-incarnation of the old man who died!
Do you people have any such experience to share here? Do you believe in Reincarnation?
The world is too complex for us to understand it and there are many things which are completely out of our brain's sphere to understand. Just because we cannot understand it does not mean it does not exist.
Personally, I don't believe in reincarnation for several reasons. I believe that God created us all as individual and unique people, each person is his own handiwork and is precious in his sight. And while I do believe in conservation and recycling, I don't think this applies to souls. Reincarnation pretty much destroys my belief that God has created us unique, because if we are just left over from some one else's life then it just show that we are just that, left overs. People created from other people, reheated and put on a new plate to have again, just like that casserole that you made a few nights ago. So to me reincarnation just doesn't fit with my God.
I'm not saying thier aren't valid arguements for reincarnation, I'm merely saying that they don't fit in with my God. So if someone believes that they are the grandfather of someone 40 years thier senior, they have that right, but it also means that they have a very different understanding of God than I do.
I do not know why people believe even when they hear and see things with their own eye.. they don't want to ask them selves "is it possible?" instead they say.. this is what I believe.. and I don't wish to change my believe.. I just don't know why some people think like that.. well.. personally I believe in re-incarnation.. it has happened in several part of this world.. including, Europe, Greece, US.. etc.. and still I can see people are so close minded that they don't want to do further research on it.. they just simply say.. my belive is this and that.. so it is not possible.. hell no.. what the heck do we know about this universe.. nothing.. nothing at all.. But let me tell ya one thing.. the thing that I tell to everyone... "IF YOUR GOD WANT SOMEBODY TO BORN AGAIN, BY ALL MEANS HE WILL DO IT, HE DON'T HAVE TO ASK YOU" and don't say our book says that it won't happen.. what the heck.. God don't even have the right to change his decision.. You do not over rule him... But he over rules you..
Nothing personal in above comments Jim.. Harsh comments are most welcome
Nothing personal to it, but I simply have not seen it with my own eyes, in fact I'm not even sure how you would "see" reincarnation, I've only heard stories about it and no offense to anyone on this board, but I don't exactly take stories from online forums as hard fact, so pardon me for being a bit skeptical of this. And I am not unwilling to change my beliefs, but as of yet, I have no reason to. If you can give me some reason as to why I should, then perhaps I would consider it, but you haven't and therefore I remain content not to challenge my current belief system as you have yet to do so as well. If you wish to try and convince me that there is some evidence that reincarnation is real, then by all means do so, but until then do not attempt to tell me that I am closed minded or unwilling to change, for if I were to be swayed by the arguments presented here then I would be doomed to a life of ever changing opinions and moods.
I concur with Jim in this.
Science is not a democracy....evidence from observation/experiment trumps all and without it there is no reason to change existing paradigms. A rationalist position on irrational posits and supernatural phenomena is exactly as Jim says : show me some support for the view or I will, quite reasonably, stick to my current world-view which is based on scientific theory and is not simply a fad or passing belief system.
Chris
| Bikerman wrote: |
I concur with Jim in this.
Science is not a democracy....evidence from observation/experiment trumps all and without it there is no reason to change existing paradigms. A rationalist position on irrational posits and supernatural phenomena is exactly as Jim says : show me some support for the view or I will, quite reasonably, stick to my current world-view which is based on scientific theory and is not simply a fad or passing belief system.
Chris |
LOL.. .
Chris, I don't disagree with you, but reincarnation is hardly a "passing belief system". The concept of reincarnation is old enough to make the scientific method look like a fad.
@swapnalokam - I dont think there is any real compelling evidence to convince a non-believer about reincarnation. Stories like the one that started this topic are intriguing, but without more info and a controlled investigation, it is not going to convince anyone. | HoboPelican wrote: |
| Bikerman wrote: | I concur with Jim in this.
Science is not a democracy....evidence from observation/experiment trumps all and without it there is no reason to change existing paradigms. A rationalist position on irrational posits and supernatural phenomena is exactly as Jim says : show me some support for the view or I will, quite reasonably, stick to my current world-view which is based on scientific theory and is not simply a fad or passing belief system.
Chris |
LOL.. .
Chris, I don't disagree with you, but reincarnation is hardly a "passing belief system". The concept of reincarnation is old enough to make the scientific method look like a fad.
|
All belief systems are passing and most are dynamic.
Re-incarnation as part of an organised belief system starts with the Puranas in about 300BC. Earlier version probably existed (even the Pythagorean school had a sort of version) but 300BC is the start of the belief as it is currently thought of. It also features in Jewish and some Christian theology as well as Buddhism.
The difference between science and a belief system is that the belief systems are (always I think) tied to a doctrinal system which contains certain core 'truths'. Science is not (it can be argued that it occasionally is tied into an orthodoxy, but this is always transient).
Chris. | Bikerman wrote: |
LOL.. .
Chris, I don't disagree with you, but reincarnation is hardly a "passing belief system". The concept of reincarnation is old enough to make the scientific method look like a fad.
|
All belief systems are passing and most are dynamic.
Chris.[/quote]
I knew you couldn't let anyone disagree with you even a little. That was to easy. My point still stands. The idea of reincarnation has been around for much longer than the Scientific Method. Even the just Buddhist version of it has been around longer. Your labelling it a fad is unfair. | HoboPelican wrote: |
I knew you couldn't let anyone disagree with you even a little. That was to easy. My point still stands. The idea of reincarnation has been around for much longer than the Scientific Method. Even the just Buddhist version of it has been around longer. Your labelling it a fad is unfair. |
Ahh...I didn't mean to do so. I meant to include Buddhism in the 'passing belief system' group not the 'fad' group which would include the new-age spiritual belief systems centring around things like crystals, voodoo, spirit guides and the like. Buddhism in my opinion is the most attractive of the belief systems I know of, and I don't wish to denigrate it in any way...
Chris.[quote="Bikerman"] | HoboPelican wrote: |
Ahh...I didn't mean to do so. I meant to include Buddhism in the 'passing belief system' group not the 'fad' group which would include the new-age spiritual belief systems centring around things like crystals, voodoo, spirit guides and the like. Buddhism in my opinion is the most attractive of the belief systems I know of, and I don't wish to denigrate it in any way...
Chris. |
Cmon, passing belief system? 2500 years? That denigrates it right there. How long does a belief system have to exist to not be "passing" in your mind? You don't have to believe in it, but it is much more than a passing belief system.
You are clever enough to find fault in reincarnation on many levels. I don't think this wasn't one of them. [quote="HoboPelican"] | Bikerman wrote: |
| HoboPelican wrote: |
Ahh...I didn't mean to do so. I meant to include Buddhism in the 'passing belief system' group not the 'fad' group which would include the new-age spiritual belief systems centring around things like crystals, voodoo, spirit guides and the like. Buddhism in my opinion is the most attractive of the belief systems I know of, and I don't wish to denigrate it in any way...
Chris. |
Cmon, passing belief system? 2500 years? That denigrates it right there. How long does a belief system have to exist to not be "passing" in your mind? You don't have to believe in it, but it is much more than a passing belief system.
You are clever enough to find fault in reincarnation on many levels. I don't think this wasn't one of them. |
You are being too harsh or I am being unclear.
Passing belief system was not meant in a derrogatory sense, it simply means changing or transient. All belief systems are, as I said dynamic. Even modern Buddhism is different to that of a few centuries ago and when it comes to more doctrinal religions such as Christianity, the differences are huge.
Compare Hinayanal buddhism which travelled to the Southeast Asian countries, for example, with Mahayanal Bhuddhism which travelled to the East Asian and Himalyan region. There are big differences, even though both have the same origin. Tantric Buddhism does not even require the belief in reincarnation since enlightenment, in that philosophy, can be attained in a single lifetime and does not require hundreds or thousands as it does in other forms of Buddhism.
Like all others, Buddhism as a belief system, has changed over time very markedly. That is the sense in which I mean the phrase - transient - and I think that 'passing' it is both accurate and fairly chosen in the context.
Chris. | Bikerman wrote: |
You are being too harsh or I am being unclear.
Chris. |
I disagree, quite strongly, on both points. You were quite clear and I don't think I am being overly harsh. You can dance as much as you want about minor doctrinal changes and say that everything changes to some degree. But it seemed to me that you were trying to dismiss belief reincarnation as being similar to a fad. A passing thing.
I'll bow out now, because I don't want to hijack this topic any further and to let others comment on the original thoughts. | HoboPelican wrote: |
| Bikerman wrote: |
You are being too harsh or I am being unclear.
Chris. |
I disagree, quite strongly, on both points. You were quite clear and I don't think I am being overly harsh. You can dance as much as you want about minor doctrinal changes and say that everything changes to some degree. But it seemed to me that you were trying to dismiss belief reincarnation as being similar to a fad. A passing thing.
I'll bow out now, because I don't want to hijack this topic any further and to let others comment on the original thoughts. |
OK...well my final points are
1. I certainly meant that it is a belief that is changing and will continue to do so, and is therefore passing.
2. I did not mean it is a fad.
3. The changes I mentioned are non of them minor doctrinal changes - they are fundamental/central.
Regards
ChrisI beleive whole heartedly in Reincarnation. You see, if we look at it from a psudo-scientific point of view, there is no logical reason that a spirit or soul or conciousness could be created or destroyed, it must continue on somehow. The First Law of Thermodynamics states: Energy can be changed from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed. The same must be true for souls. A soul can change from one form to another but can never be destroyed and was never "created."
| dgcleveland wrote: |
| I beleive whole heartedly in Reincarnation. You see, if we look at it from a psudo-scientific point of view, there is no logical reason that a spirit or soul or conciousness could be created or destroyed, it must continue on somehow. The First Law of Thermodynamics states: Energy can be changed from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed. The same must be true for souls. A soul can change from one form to another but can never be destroyed and was never "created." |
As you say - 'pseudo science', meaning pretend science.
Chris.I believe there is a re-incarnation. ^_^
if you believe There is/are GOD whatever your GOD (accept or not) you're believe in what so called re-incarnation.
most people have a wrong conception about re-incarnation,
speacially about the 'world' where the life re-born.
born in a our daily meaning is a new life-form come-out from as we always call 'mother'. in reincarnation the world not absolutely always in our world (earth). as soon as you dead you will be born to the 'world' again. the matter just what kind of 'world' you were born again.
in Buddhism (of course) that depend on the Karma of the owner.
you maybe will born in Paradise or Hell or another world as soon as you close your eyes after final breath. as some other religion always say "go to" paradise or hell.
the meaning of born is not absolutely must come-out of the mother.
that just only happen in human world (or our this world and not the absolute at all). some world you can be born spontaneously like hell or paradise and some of world the way you born maybe really beyond our knowledge. the physic of you body is not the absolute form. your body will always change depend on which world you being and what karma in your life that you have wear before.
in Bhuddism, Hell itself is not the absolutely must be somewhere like hell as we always know contain fire or torture. the earth also can be hell itself for you depend on the karma you have. example you were born as zebra ready for hunt by lion. you inability to fight back at all
(that's why Bhuddism choice to be vegetarian cause animal consider as a life contain the soul).
being an animal or some other thing is not unfair compare with being human. the more u have the more you have to responsible from the ability you wear. so any other form of life is fair always. the way of other world thinking is totaly different. so is wrong that you said animal is stupid than human. but in fact we can not compare the 2 different world without knowing each other. you said fish is stupid yes, you right but you never living under water naturally. fish will say to you "at least I can fly freely"
if human can hear a frequency more or less than 20Hz ~ 20000Hz ( <---the exact value I'm not sure) our world will totally different from what we know right now. any small change of our ability will cause a different world at all compare with what we know right know. most people think monkey is ugly look, worm or bug is disgusting. that's just a concept of (our)human mind. there is no ugly or beauty unless you look from some perpective. we think that's ugly because our world is different. and we have different perpective and conception.
God is believed as one of the form from the re-incarnation. God of course is born from a very special soul and have a special story of his own. but
god is not the perfect one in Bhuddism teaching. that's why God sometime will get angry or punish to other that he/she don't like.. and one day God also possibly re-incarnation to other life-form. in Bhuddism, we don't need punish other as the karma will work automatically to anything of life-soul base on his action.
there are a lot of kind of world that you will be possible born after your dead. that's the life after dead. that's call re-incarnation.
that's the reason why I believe
Last edited by doomz on Tue Oct 31, 2006 11:50 am; edited 1 time in total
| doomz wrote: |
I believe there is a re-incarnation. ^_^
if you believe There is a GOD whatever your GOD (accept or not) you're believe in what so called re-incarnation.
most people have a wrong conception about re-incarnation, speacially about the 'world' where the life re-born.
|
a) I don't and therefore I don't.
c) I have no clear conception of it because I do not think it exists
| Quote: |
born in a our daily meaning is a new life-form come-out from as we always call 'mother'. in reincarnation the world not absolutely always in our world (earth). as soon as you dead you will be born to the 'world' again. the matter just what kind of 'world' you were born again.
in Buddhism (of course) that depend on the Karma of the owner. you maybe will born in Paradise or Hell or another world as soon as you close your eyes after final breath. as some other religion always say "go to" paradise or hell.
|
That is not Buddhism. Nirvana is not paradise, rather an escape from the desire that is the ultimate cause of suffering and, in that sense, an escape from the endless cycle of existance. It's more of a nothing than a something in my understanding of the concept.
(and there is no concept of a metaphysical hell in Buddhism).
| Quote: |
the meaning of born is not absolutely must come-out of the mother.
|
To be precise the meaning of reincarnation is 'to be made flesh again'.
| Quote: |
that just only happen in human world (or our this world and not the absolute at all). some world you can be born spontaneously like hell or paradise and some of world the way you born maybe really beyond our knowledge. the physic of you body is not the absolute form. your body will always change depend on which world you being and what karma in your life that you have wear before. in Bhuddism, Hell itself is not the absolutely must be somewhere like hell as we always know contain fire or torture. the earth also can be hell itself for you depend on the karma you have. example you were born as zebra ready for hunt by lion. you inability to fight back at all (that's why Bhuddism choice to be vegetarian cause animal consider as a life contain the soul).
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OK...I'll accept that clarification. You are wrong about the vegetarianism though. If you look at it from the 'Theravada' perspective, the choice of whether or not to eat meat is purely a matter of personal preference and there is nothing contrary to the path in eating meat.
| Quote: |
being an animal or some other thing is not unfair compare with being human. the more u have the more you have to responsible from the ability you wear. so any other form of life is fair always. the way of other world thinking is totaly different. so is wrong that you said animal is stupid than human. but in fact we can not compare the 2 different world without knowing each other. you said fish is stupid yes, you right but you never living under water naturally. example: if human can heard a frequency more or less than 20Hz ~ 20000Hz ( <---the exact value I'm not sure) our world will totally different from what we know right now. any small change of our ability will cause a different world at all compare with what we know right know.
|
I didn't say that animals were more stupid....at least I don't remember doing so....
Human hearing in adults tends to be in the 65Hz-16KHz range. Young children and some adults can hear up around the 20KHz range.
| Quote: |
| that's the reason why I believe |
Did I miss something ? What is the reason ? You have explained a sort of version of Buddhism but I see no reasons for holding such a belief in your posting. Have I missed something ?
Regards
Chris | Bikerman wrote: |
a) I don't and therefore I don't.
c) I have no clear conception of it because I do not think it exists
|
that's just reasonable for someone to thing like this.
conception? you mean God or the reincarnation or both?
but whatever that's just something about believe without any proof.
so just do what as you see fit to do..
| Bikerman wrote: |
That is not Buddhism. Nirvana is not paradise, rather an escape from the desire that is the ultimate cause of suffering and, in that sense, an escape from the endless cycle of existance. It's more of a nothing than a something in my understanding of the concept.
(and there is no concept of a metaphysical hell in Buddhism).
|
You're right about Nirvana, and I never say "Paradise is Nirvana"
Nirvana like a 'Condition' or 'Stage' not a place.
but there is still world call 'Hell' and 'Paradise', just another world in Bhuddism. you mean that's not Bhuddism? I think not. from what I know there also some story telling some individual reach Nirvana while in Hell (a Place).
| Quote: |
OK...I'll accept that clarification. You are wrong about the vegetarianism though. If you look at it from the 'Theravada' perspective, the choice of whether or not to eat meat is purely a matter of personal preference and there is nothing contrary to the path in eating meat.
|
but you state in the perpective of 'option' right. this option is for common people like us. for those believer of Bhuddism but not truly choice to be a path to Buddhism. when you chose to become a monk, a true Bhuddism follower, one of the rule is a vegetarian. because eating animal is consideration as killing-life and that's a sin. killing animal just the same as killing human.
however Bhuddism doesn't like to force other to do so, must be vegetarian or die!. the most important is the willing is come from the deepest of someone heart not from the force. that's why when ask to the monks, they will maybe tell you "as you wish" want to vegetarian or not. but if you want to do it, with all your heart and soul. you better not if you are not willing to do.
| Quote: |
I didn't say that animals were more stupid....at least I don't remember doing so....
Human hearing in adults tends to be in the 65Hz-16KHz range. Young children and some adults can hear up around the 20KHz range.
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I didn't say you said so, I just give some information ^_^
| Quote: |
Did I miss something ? What is the reason ? You have explained a sort of version of Buddhism but I see no reasons for holding such a belief in your posting. Have I missed something ?
Regards
Chris
|
it seem that you miss a big thing that's why you asking like that.
then why I writing so much, all of that is related with re-incarnation.
try to see the whole post at once. I think you analyse my post like statistic point to poin, or maybe you just don't believe that's why you don't see any reason to be believe.
I've sad this just something about believe. out of this what can I prove to you.
but I'm not Bhuddist, I just attractive in Bhuddism compare with other religion, making me read more about Bhuddism. I thing the teaching is more reasonable only but not all.
unfortunately I'm Asian so sometime is hard for me to understand some english vocabulary special when word with scientific meaning. ^_^Wow, I really should check in here more often, too much to comment on at once so I'll just tackle the thermodynamics arguement first.
Life cannot be quantified. If I were to die right now the only difference between my living body and my dead body would be the absence of life. There is no mass change, no energy change, merely a change in whether I am living or not. My heart can still beat after I'm dead, my nerves will continue to send signals (whether my brain receives them depends on your definition of death), the cells of my body still perform thier normal functions, but I am dead. So while energy/mass can not be created or destroyed, you have not proven to me scientifically nor logically that a "soul" should have such properties as mass and energy do.
what is your exact definition of death... cause you said your heart could beat even after you are dead.. so when is the time to die... is it: when you stop breathing? closed your eyes? cells started to die? brain is completely fried? Nervouse system shut down? So can you make it more clear.. what is your definition of death...
Sorry about that, I was refering to brain death as the cessation of the brain to create its own unique ECG (not a vegitative state, cessation of all brain function) and what I was trying to refer was the very point that you metioned, that the individual cells continue to live on long after they have stopped functioning as a unit to give a living being, it "life". This is simply what I referred to in my other post, there are obviously many other definitions of death which I have not expanded on.
some things are hard to believe in. Reincarnation is one of them. I am living in a buddhist country and reincarnation is believed out here. I dont know whether i believe in reincarnation though. Ofcourse i have heard a lot from valid sources and even some incidences in the villages of my friends. Most of my friends who question a lot about reincarnation and other stuff argue about it and are awe about what they witnessed.
I think reincarnation is possible because if you look at some of the reincarnated persons(or atleast what some people claim they are), they are kids of maybe 10, the one i saw and his nature was that of a grown man. His command over language and his general behavior.
It is believed that they know everything about thier preivious lives and i think this is true. Because there is no other way a small kid would know so much.
I know it is hard to believe and we believe too much in scientific facts but deep down somewhere i do believe there are more things happening in this world then what we see and hear. Remember we see only certain rays and hear only between certain frequencies. There could be more than us right beside us, just that we dont know about it!!!
