I have many words of wisdom stored in my 14 year old head. Let us discuss them. First, you can't judge a man by his actions... there may be too many unknown factors...
Words of wisdom
| Garethp wrote: |
| I have many words of wisdom stored in my 14 year old head. Let us discuss them. First, you can't judge a man by his actions... there may be too many unknown factors... |
And there would be fewer unknowns if you tried to judge him by his intentions?
Or should we just not judge at all, and assume everyone is good, and everything is nice and - oh, look! that person just murdered someone... oh well, we can't assume he did something wrong because there are too many unknown factors, so we'll just let it slide, hm?
| Indi wrote: | ||
And there would be fewer unknowns if you tried to judge him by his intentions? Or should we just not judge at all, and assume everyone is good, and everything is nice and - oh, look! that person just murdered someone... oh well, we can't assume he did something wrong because there are too many unknown factors, so we'll just let it slide, hm? |
Judgement isn't necessarily a good thing when discussing someones soul. We all have the capacity for great evil, as well as great goodness. We all have the touch of the divine, and thus everyone should be respected by and respect everyone else.
THis being said, we all have the touch of the divine and as such are egotistical and egomaniacal. We try to better our own position in life, not necessarily without expense to others.
It is this full integration of the divine that has created humanity and within that humanity we live, make choices, and become one with our divine nature.
Well Indi, you seem very cynical today. Say a person was holding your family hostage, saying they would kill them all unless you stole money from charity. You do it, people judge you as evil. Would you like it?
Shike, I couldn't have written it better myself. You have exactly the same views as I one that matter. BTW, I remember one sentence by a priest I admire: "Do not judge anyone, until you become perfect like the God. But if you became so, you would love everyone so much, that there would be no place for judgement."
| the_mariska wrote: |
| Shike, I couldn't have written it better myself. You have exactly the same views as I one that matter. BTW, I remember one sentence by a priest I admire: "Do not judge anyone, until you become perfect like the God. But if you became so, you would love everyone so much, that there would be no place for judgement." |
Well thank you. Incidently, my views on the topic come more from Zen Buddhism. One of the core beliefs is that Everyone and Everything has the buddha nature, so everyone deserves the respect of the buddha.
That's surprising, because I am a Roman Catholic, and everything you stated in here has an exact equivalent in the teachings of many catholic priests [not all of them, but luckily many enough to make me become amazed with this 
]. I've heard somewhere that all of the religions lead people to the same God, but in different ways. Seeing this, I couldn't agree more.
]. I've heard somewhere that all of the religions lead people to the same God, but in different ways. Seeing this, I couldn't agree more. | the_mariska wrote: |
| That's surprising, because I am a Roman Catholic, and everything you stated in here has an exact equivalent in the teachings of many catholic priests [not all of them, but luckily many enough to make me become amazed with this ]. I've heard somewhere that all of the religions lead people to the same God, but in different ways. Seeing this, I couldn't agree more. |
I actually tried to state it in a generic fashion so that it wouldn't be snubbed by christian extremists (and yes they do exist on these boards) through my limited studies, I've found that among a great number of religions there are very similar teachings. I consider myself somewhat a "Zen Druid" as I follow both paths simultaneously as they are parallel paths. The a major difference is that Druidry has a pantheistic view of the supernatural. But all in all they are similar enough to combine them into a single path.
BTW, have you heard of Saint Bridget??
Did you know that she was originaly the Celtic Goddes of Healing, Smithcraft, and Bardcraft? She was assimilated into the Catholic mythos when the Romans tried to convert the Irish, but her following was so strong they had to convert the goddess to convert the followers.
| Shike wrote: |
| Judgement isn't necessarily a good thing when discussing someones soul. We all have the capacity for great evil, as well as great goodness. We all have the touch of the divine, and thus everyone should be respected by and respect everyone else. |
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THis being said, we all have the touch of the divine and as such are egotistical and egomaniacal. We try to better our own position in life, not necessarily without expense to others. |
Are you saying that egomania is a divine attribute and an inheritance from our divine origins ? Surely that is the implication here?
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It is this full integration of the divine that has created humanity and within that humanity we live, make choices, and become one with our divine nature. |
You said man has a 'touch of the divine' above, but now you say that full integration (ie combining/mixing) created humanity. Surely there is some contradiction here. Firstly what exactly was integrated to produce humanity ? Divinity and....what else ? Not humanity since that is the outcome, not one of the integrals.....
Also consider: full integration of a divinity and a lesser being would, by definition, produce full divinity plus lesser being which is another way of saying full divinity. Since one intergral is Omnipotent, Omnipresent and Omniscient and the other is (comparitively) of little significance in terms of those 3 measures, then any synthesis or integration of the two would produce an outcome which owed an almost infinite amount to the former and an almost infinitessimal amount to the latter.
Try integrating, for example, a Shakespear play and a 2 line piece of grafitti from a toilet wall. You get a shakespear play with a couple of extra lines......
Finally, becoming one with our divine nature by living and making choices. Hmm....that is a bit like saying 'by living and making choices we will one day become immensely wealthy and powerful, but not necessarily in this universe. OK, so it can't be shown to be wrong, but neither is it a testable proposition, so it contains no information other than a supposition based on a presumption.
Regards
Chris
| Garethp wrote: |
| Well Indi, you seem very cynical today. Say a person was holding your family hostage, saying they would kill them all unless you stole money from charity. You do it, people judge you as evil. Would you like it? |
The age old code of law, the prisons, the courts, they're all "cynical"?
No man can righfully deserve punishment, for whatever crime, since his crimes are "only" his actions?
| Shike wrote: |
| Judgement isn't necessarily a good thing when discussing someones soul. |
Would make more sense if accompanied with a definition of "someone's soul".
| Shike wrote: |
| We all have the capacity for great evil, as well as great goodness. We all have the touch of the divine, and thus everyone should be respected by and respect everyone else.
THis being said, we all have the touch of the divine and as such are egotistical and egomaniacal. We try to better our own position in life, not necessarily without expense to others. |
Does this "capacity" of evil and this "touch" of divine reflect in our actions?
This "capacity" of evil and this "touch" of divine - is it equal within us all? Or does it vary?
If it doesn't, how come a few people end up as terrorists?
If it does, will our actions not be proportionally evil or divine - something we can judge people with?
With each of us having great capacity for both good and evil, what is it that really differentiates us?
Anything but out actions?
| Garethp wrote: |
| Well Indi, you seem very cynical today. Say a person was holding your family hostage, saying they would kill them all unless you stole money from charity. You do it, people judge you as evil. Would you like it? |
that's another matter. i believe people do what their brains tell them to do. However, maybe their brains react just passively to some other conditions like threaten as your example or only for living. But the fact is that, his behavior causes trouble or harm to others'. As a mentally healthy person, he/she has to respond to the behavior.
If a boy is not punished for stealing money for the fist time, what about the second? the third? and till he becomes a thief? what is the limit of times or degree of harm should there be to judge a person just based on his behavior.
Here i understand judge by telling how much harm does a man cause to a society and how much should he suffer to pay for that. No other emotional opinions within it.
The pont of my entire post was that Since we all have the buddha nature (or touch of the divine if you will) we should treat each other with the respect that goes into it. No human is perfect, and as such we have to strive to realize our buddha nature to become fully enlightened. But the capability is there, in all of us.
If everyone were to treat everyone else with that level of respect we would all become a more enlightened race and we would reduce the need for violence and bigotry. When it comes down to it, one of the main reasons for violence is one side believing the other is "benieth" them, or a lower state of being. If this weren't the case, and everyone believed that everyone (and everything) else deserved the same respect that we ourselves deserve we would all be equal in everyones eyes.
yes, that is what I'm saying. Please keep in mind, I am coming from a completely different point of view than that of the religions of the book (Islam, Judiasm, and Christianity).
What I meant is that everyone (and everything) is touched by the divine, and as such are divine, we have only to come to terms with this and realize that everyone else is similarly touched and deserves the same respect as we ourselves do.
And yes, there very well may be contridictions, but this is ok. What is the appropriate answer for one person isn't necessarily the appropriate answer for another. There are many "contradictory" teachings in zen. The point is to find enlightenment and thus become one with our buddha (divine) nature.
divinity IS humanity. This, i believe is the core difference, which, I believe, makes the rest of your argument (for me at least) moot, and yes, I believe with true enlightenment we gain the knowledge of our ancestors and descendants.
Zen Buddhist Monks, revere all life and will go to lengths to save the life of even insects, because all life is sacred, and as such divine.
If everyone were to treat everyone else with that level of respect we would all become a more enlightened race and we would reduce the need for violence and bigotry. When it comes down to it, one of the main reasons for violence is one side believing the other is "benieth" them, or a lower state of being. If this weren't the case, and everyone believed that everyone (and everything) else deserved the same respect that we ourselves deserve we would all be equal in everyones eyes.
| Bikerman wrote: |
| Are you saying that egomania is a divine attribute and an inheritance from our divine origins ? Surely that is the implication here? |
yes, that is what I'm saying. Please keep in mind, I am coming from a completely different point of view than that of the religions of the book (Islam, Judiasm, and Christianity).
| Bikerman wrote: |
| You said man has a 'touch of the divine' above, but now you say that full integration (ie combining/mixing) created humanity. Surely there is some contradiction here. |
What I meant is that everyone (and everything) is touched by the divine, and as such are divine, we have only to come to terms with this and realize that everyone else is similarly touched and deserves the same respect as we ourselves do.
And yes, there very well may be contridictions, but this is ok. What is the appropriate answer for one person isn't necessarily the appropriate answer for another. There are many "contradictory" teachings in zen. The point is to find enlightenment and thus become one with our buddha (divine) nature.
| Bikerman wrote: |
| Firstly what exactly was integrated to produce humanity ? Divinity and....what else ? Not humanity since that is the outcome, not one of the integrals..... |
divinity IS humanity. This, i believe is the core difference, which, I believe, makes the rest of your argument (for me at least) moot, and yes, I believe with true enlightenment we gain the knowledge of our ancestors and descendants.
Zen Buddhist Monks, revere all life and will go to lengths to save the life of even insects, because all life is sacred, and as such divine.
what happens then if you reach enlightenment? everythings become peaceful.. what people call heaven?
| dac_nip wrote: |
| what happens then if you reach enlightenment? everythings become peaceful.. what people call heaven? |
You become nothingness and everything.
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| You become nothingness and everything. |
i must say that it sounds quite ironic, nothingness and then everything? you find everything in nothingness? sounds absurd. please give me some links, i would like to read much more about Buddhism, i have some ideas but they are just plain ideas unless i confirm it.
Wikipedia Entry
Buddhism WWW Virtual Library
Zen Guide
Zen Speaks: Shouts of Nothingness
Look at the book, it is in a Comic Book Format.
Buddhism WWW Virtual Library
Zen Guide
Zen Speaks: Shouts of Nothingness
Look at the book, it is in a Comic Book Format.
thanks..
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