OK theres seems to be a lot of anti-american threads on here,some of them deserved and i myself have added to some of them.. but lets be positive,america may get a lot of things wrong.. but in that, they are no different to any other country in the world... so for this thread post something positive america and its culture have given the world.
American bashing
| truespeed wrote: |
| ....so for this thread post something positive america and its culture have given the world. |
I'll start small....Buffalo Wings!
Too small? How about Rock and Roll?
ok i will add too.. something small.. baywatch
something big.. the assembly/production line (care of henry ford)
something big.. the assembly/production line (care of henry ford)
Do you think, therefore, that there is an inbalance in the view being generated of the US ?
I do too, but not in a positive sense.
To be honest my own experience of many US folk is that they are already quite well supplied with the 'positive' elements of their culture and, indeed, often use the basic 'goodness' as a reason why the US is not to be compared with other lesser countries.
The US always means well, the intention is for the good, the aim is to improve the world....etc.
I think that it is time for this US 'bashing' to be given some air with the sincere hope that it will serve to rebalance the views of many people. I agree when you say that the US is not much different from other countries - The UK was previously in the role ow occupied by the US so I do not speak from a posotion of moral high-ground by any means. Being normal means that the US acts selfishly for it's own interests and, where necessary, that includes military domination. This is the way it is and there is nothing particularly new, evil or even suprising about it. What is dangerous is the perception amongst many US citizens that things are not at all like this and that the US strides the world like some saviour, bent on good works, devoted to democracy and human rights, determined to free people from oppression and tyrranny. This needs to be attacked head-on with the view of getting the debate into the world of reality and hopefully beginning to mark out some common ground between the US and the rest.
One of the most scarey things about the US at the moment is the way in which the tactics of fascism have been used and are working so well.
The first tactic is : lie, repeat it, keep repeating it. Soon the lie becomes truth. This has worked spectacularly well with Iraq in particular. It is now thought by many to have been linked to 9/11, a hotbed of terrorists, closely tied to OBL and Al-Qaeda and a backward undeveloped hell-hole with no women's rights, daily butchery and civil terror.This is not a very accurate picture of course, but that doesn't matter since perceptions are what this is about.
Next you use the 'them and us' tactic to isolate critics and render opposition helpless. The obvious ways include fostering the atmosphere than anyone criticising current policy is dishonouring the memory of the 9/11 victims. States which do not immediately support US foreign policy are threatened with 'hostile' status and the fact that other states have equal moral and legal rights to the US is portrayed as a bad and harmful thing.
One example of this may help.
Remember when the US wanted OBL extradited from Afghanistan and the Taliban asked for proof that OBL had done the 9/11 bombings. Remember the US reaction...incredulity, sheer astonishment. How dare these tin-pot nobodies require the US to 'prove' itself. The whole thing was regarded as proof of their unfitness to govern.
What was to be lost by handing over the evidence rather than chest puffing and sabre rattling. If the Taliban had shown bad faith and prevarrocated, then, fine, at least the US would have tried the correct approach and this would have been noted by the rest of the world. Instead the mere suggestion that any state might require the US to provide some evidence before extraditing people was not only dismissed out of hand but seen as ridiculous and unworthy of consideration.
Now reverse the situation. Haiti has repeatedly requested the US to extradite Emmanuelle Constant who is wanted for at least 5000 murders during the 90s. The evidence is strong and has been presented to the US as well as the International Criminal Court and the UN. The US has consistently refused to consider extradition.
Another example that springs to mind is the US refusal to extradite four terrorists -- right-wing Cuban exiles trained by the CIA -- convicted over twenty years ago in Venezuela for blowing up a Cuban airline in 1976. There are many other similar instances which I will not bore people with.
The point is that this sort of double standards is very damaging to US standing and leads many to conclude that since the US is such a hypocrite then it is not to be supported at all and should be distrusted as a matter of course. This is increadibly damaging and corrosive and is leading to a sharp division which will inevitably end in tears.
The US is one of the major destabilising influences in the current world ad this should be faced squarely. It's new doctrine of pre-emptive war, coupled with it's isolationism and refusal to embrace international bodies or agreements which might possibly be damaging to certain US interests
(examples include the International Criminal Court, Kyoto, Geneva Convention (Afghanistan), Nuclear test ban treaty, agreements on controlling biological and chemical weapons, Ballistic missile treaty, Womens Rights agreement (CEDAW) - it is the only industrialised nation not to support this; and the list goes on and on) mean that it is seen as a hypocritical and untrustworthy state and has already lost the support and goodwill of much of the world.
I want this to stop. I don't enjoy bashing the US, honestly. I would far rather be in the positive camp. Being positive at the moment, however, is unwarranted and, I think, dangerous because it will only serve to increase the gap in perceptions between many US citizens and much of the rest of the world. We need to bridge the gap not widen it.
How many US posters know the extent of US interventions since WWII ? How many countries do most think that the US has either invaded or used covert CIA methods to influence the choice and type of government in the country concerned ? 5 ? 10 ? How about 72. Yes, really, 72.
Were these countries all commie or dictatorships who threatened the US ? Not at all. Many were deomcratic, socially progressive, well supported and economically liberal. I won't bore people with a long list....you can read that here if interested:
http://camres.frih.net/USInterventions.html
The point I'm making is that I think the balance needs to swing a bit more in the 'bashing' direction before people generally have a perception of reality which owes more to documented historical fact and less to a manufactured self-image, created and reinforced by elites, used to reassure the populace and justify any occasional barbarity, and generally accepted as the difference between US and THEM (whoever 'them' happens to be at any time).
It would be a large step forward if people realised that the world is NOT crying out for US intervention left and right, and in the majority of cases where the US does intervene in other countries, the outcome is disasterous, not positive (you can go through the list yourself: Afghanistan, Iraq, much of South and central America, Haiti, El Salvador, Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia - all these countries were left in far worse states than before the US intervened).
If this false view of the US can be countered then there is a chance that some common ground can be forged with the majority of the rest of the world. If not then the US will increasingly become despised throughout the world. It really is that serious I think - the US is really hated in a very large numbr of countries and is mistrusted in most of the rest. Even its staunch allies are distrustful now (the UK being a prime example). The huge reservoir of goodwill that was present after 9/11 has been criminally discarded by unilateralism, disasterous foreign policy and confrontational diplomacy (you are with us or against us etc etc). on 9/12 most people throughout the world were sympathetic and willing to help the US in any reasonable way they could. Contrast that with the picture today.
This is not good and anything that can be done to reverse the trend must surely be welcome.
Regards
Chris
I do too, but not in a positive sense.
To be honest my own experience of many US folk is that they are already quite well supplied with the 'positive' elements of their culture and, indeed, often use the basic 'goodness' as a reason why the US is not to be compared with other lesser countries.
The US always means well, the intention is for the good, the aim is to improve the world....etc.
I think that it is time for this US 'bashing' to be given some air with the sincere hope that it will serve to rebalance the views of many people. I agree when you say that the US is not much different from other countries - The UK was previously in the role ow occupied by the US so I do not speak from a posotion of moral high-ground by any means. Being normal means that the US acts selfishly for it's own interests and, where necessary, that includes military domination. This is the way it is and there is nothing particularly new, evil or even suprising about it. What is dangerous is the perception amongst many US citizens that things are not at all like this and that the US strides the world like some saviour, bent on good works, devoted to democracy and human rights, determined to free people from oppression and tyrranny. This needs to be attacked head-on with the view of getting the debate into the world of reality and hopefully beginning to mark out some common ground between the US and the rest.
One of the most scarey things about the US at the moment is the way in which the tactics of fascism have been used and are working so well.
The first tactic is : lie, repeat it, keep repeating it. Soon the lie becomes truth. This has worked spectacularly well with Iraq in particular. It is now thought by many to have been linked to 9/11, a hotbed of terrorists, closely tied to OBL and Al-Qaeda and a backward undeveloped hell-hole with no women's rights, daily butchery and civil terror.This is not a very accurate picture of course, but that doesn't matter since perceptions are what this is about.
Next you use the 'them and us' tactic to isolate critics and render opposition helpless. The obvious ways include fostering the atmosphere than anyone criticising current policy is dishonouring the memory of the 9/11 victims. States which do not immediately support US foreign policy are threatened with 'hostile' status and the fact that other states have equal moral and legal rights to the US is portrayed as a bad and harmful thing.
One example of this may help.
Remember when the US wanted OBL extradited from Afghanistan and the Taliban asked for proof that OBL had done the 9/11 bombings. Remember the US reaction...incredulity, sheer astonishment. How dare these tin-pot nobodies require the US to 'prove' itself. The whole thing was regarded as proof of their unfitness to govern.
What was to be lost by handing over the evidence rather than chest puffing and sabre rattling. If the Taliban had shown bad faith and prevarrocated, then, fine, at least the US would have tried the correct approach and this would have been noted by the rest of the world. Instead the mere suggestion that any state might require the US to provide some evidence before extraditing people was not only dismissed out of hand but seen as ridiculous and unworthy of consideration.
Now reverse the situation. Haiti has repeatedly requested the US to extradite Emmanuelle Constant who is wanted for at least 5000 murders during the 90s. The evidence is strong and has been presented to the US as well as the International Criminal Court and the UN. The US has consistently refused to consider extradition.
Another example that springs to mind is the US refusal to extradite four terrorists -- right-wing Cuban exiles trained by the CIA -- convicted over twenty years ago in Venezuela for blowing up a Cuban airline in 1976. There are many other similar instances which I will not bore people with.
The point is that this sort of double standards is very damaging to US standing and leads many to conclude that since the US is such a hypocrite then it is not to be supported at all and should be distrusted as a matter of course. This is increadibly damaging and corrosive and is leading to a sharp division which will inevitably end in tears.
The US is one of the major destabilising influences in the current world ad this should be faced squarely. It's new doctrine of pre-emptive war, coupled with it's isolationism and refusal to embrace international bodies or agreements which might possibly be damaging to certain US interests
(examples include the International Criminal Court, Kyoto, Geneva Convention (Afghanistan), Nuclear test ban treaty, agreements on controlling biological and chemical weapons, Ballistic missile treaty, Womens Rights agreement (CEDAW) - it is the only industrialised nation not to support this; and the list goes on and on) mean that it is seen as a hypocritical and untrustworthy state and has already lost the support and goodwill of much of the world.
I want this to stop. I don't enjoy bashing the US, honestly. I would far rather be in the positive camp. Being positive at the moment, however, is unwarranted and, I think, dangerous because it will only serve to increase the gap in perceptions between many US citizens and much of the rest of the world. We need to bridge the gap not widen it.
How many US posters know the extent of US interventions since WWII ? How many countries do most think that the US has either invaded or used covert CIA methods to influence the choice and type of government in the country concerned ? 5 ? 10 ? How about 72. Yes, really, 72.
Were these countries all commie or dictatorships who threatened the US ? Not at all. Many were deomcratic, socially progressive, well supported and economically liberal. I won't bore people with a long list....you can read that here if interested:
http://camres.frih.net/USInterventions.html
The point I'm making is that I think the balance needs to swing a bit more in the 'bashing' direction before people generally have a perception of reality which owes more to documented historical fact and less to a manufactured self-image, created and reinforced by elites, used to reassure the populace and justify any occasional barbarity, and generally accepted as the difference between US and THEM (whoever 'them' happens to be at any time).
It would be a large step forward if people realised that the world is NOT crying out for US intervention left and right, and in the majority of cases where the US does intervene in other countries, the outcome is disasterous, not positive (you can go through the list yourself: Afghanistan, Iraq, much of South and central America, Haiti, El Salvador, Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia - all these countries were left in far worse states than before the US intervened).
If this false view of the US can be countered then there is a chance that some common ground can be forged with the majority of the rest of the world. If not then the US will increasingly become despised throughout the world. It really is that serious I think - the US is really hated in a very large numbr of countries and is mistrusted in most of the rest. Even its staunch allies are distrustful now (the UK being a prime example). The huge reservoir of goodwill that was present after 9/11 has been criminally discarded by unilateralism, disasterous foreign policy and confrontational diplomacy (you are with us or against us etc etc). on 9/12 most people throughout the world were sympathetic and willing to help the US in any reasonable way they could. Contrast that with the picture today.
This is not good and anything that can be done to reverse the trend must surely be welcome.
Regards
Chris
While i agree with a lot of what you say,the old saying of power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutley,its true in the USA's case and was true when the UK was the worlds leading superpower,the solution lies in the USA and its people,for change to happen in terms of foregin policy they have to make their goverment sit up and listen,your right when you say that the USA are unpopular outside of the US but i doubt many american citizens realise this,i dont think there any short term solutions,you are have to change the whole john wayne mindset of a nation.. i dont think americas a bad country,i just think its a little (like u say) isolationist,and a little misguided and naive.. anyway back to the positives...
the simpsons
thomas edison
the simpsons
thomas edison
| Bikerman wrote: |
| ...
To be honest my own experience of many US folk is that they are already quite well supplied with the 'positive' elements of their culture and, indeed, often use the basic 'goodness' as a reason why the US is not to be compared with other lesser countries.... |
Sheesh, Chris. This is not a primarly U.S. board. Yeah, there are US rednecks here who don't seem to have any concept that the US can be wrong, but the US gets a lot of bashing here and most of us realize there is truth in some of it.
But I saw this as a mild, innocent way to say a few good things about the US for the rest of the world to see. Not to toot our horn, but to say, hey, we do have some pluses. And you had to go and get on your soap box.
LOL. Oh well. I knew someone would do it. I just didnt expect it to be you.
| HoboPelican wrote: |
|
LOL. Oh well. I knew someone would do it. I just didnt expect it to be you. |
I understand your point but this issue is amongst the most important we face today and I tend to get quite involved in it (at the expense of humour, I admit).
To prove that I'm a fan secretly hoping the US wins out rather than a critic happy to see it fail....I'll add some positives:
1) The US has, I think, the best framework of social freedoms (speech, thought, belief etc) in the world today.
2) The US freedom of information legislation is also amongst the best of it's kind that I know of.
3) Most US folk of my acquaintence are welcoming, hospitable, honest and good company.
I worked for Corning (optical fibres) which is a US glass company, for several years and found my US workmates to be dilligent, honest, reliable and 'straight'. Those are qualities which I personally prize highly.
They had a few problems with my consumption of beer (more than 1 pint seemed to be regarded as masochism and alcoholism combined) but otherwise they were, almost to a person, good people to have on your team. My judgement of a potential work colleage is always based on :
'If the computers all crashed, the power went down, the users were screaming and the management were growling, who would I want on my team.'?
I can say that the team would have contained many Americans.
Regards
Chris
I like this thread. It is fashionable to hate the USA these days, fashionable to hate Bush. But look at what they have to put up with, namely terrorism. Going to war in Iraq is their only option really.
American way of life is intriguing to me, I've lived in Europe and sampled Western European life and I can say that although they are both equally different in their own ways USA seems to interest me more.
Television/movies is something fantastic the USA has given the world. Not the money making Hollywood flicks, the all time classic films.
American way of life is intriguing to me, I've lived in Europe and sampled Western European life and I can say that although they are both equally different in their own ways USA seems to interest me more.
Television/movies is something fantastic the USA has given the world. Not the money making Hollywood flicks, the all time classic films.
| scotty wrote: |
| Going to war in Iraq is their only option really.
. |
if anyone still think like this, it means there is no enough hate of america.
when they invade a few more counry, it will be OK.
EVERY NATION wants to be the super power of the world.
us people did this by working too much.
| scotty wrote: |
| Going to war in Iraq is their only option really. |
I don't think so it was their only option. if US want, they can solve it in another way, by passing the war.
The problem is assocating the actions of a government with its people.
If a dictator is a ruthless murderer, does it mean all the citizens are as well? No. It is true that a government must have the support of its people or else it will be overthrown; however, the people in power will use scare tactics and use the media to pacify the citizens.
I leave you with this t-shirt design from diesel sweeties:
If a dictator is a ruthless murderer, does it mean all the citizens are as well? No. It is true that a government must have the support of its people or else it will be overthrown; however, the people in power will use scare tactics and use the media to pacify the citizens.
I leave you with this t-shirt design from diesel sweeties:
I agree. It's completely legitimate to critisize the US government considering the way that they have acted (everything from torture and a concentration camp through to lying to starting unprovoked wars). It's not that people hate Americans, they don't. They hate the way that the US government is acting and how they are treating everyone else.
I love Coca-Cola and appreciate such bands as Coldplay and Black Crowes. Some great movies as well (i.e. Seven etc).
| mephisto73 wrote: |
| I love Coca-Cola and appreciate such bands as Coldplay and Black Crowes. Some great movies as well (i.e. Seven etc). |
Coldplay are British.
| Bikerman wrote: |
| Do you think, therefore, that there is an inbalance in the view being generated of the US ?
I do too, but not in a positive sense. To be honest my own experience of many US folk is that they are already quite well supplied with the 'positive' elements of their culture and, indeed, often use the basic 'goodness' as a reason why the US is not to be compared with other lesser countries. The US always means well, the intention is for the good, the aim is to improve the world....etc. .............. Contrast that with the picture today. This is not good and anything that can be done to reverse the trend must surely be welcome. Regards Chris |
Chris,
I enjoyed your post because it was well thought-out. There have been several good posts on this topic.
As an American I would like to defend myself on a few simple points:
(1) ~50 million of 300 million Americans elected Bush. Maybe. The elections in 2000 and 2004 were very suspect. He won by margins that could have been reversed by different outcomes in states in which there were suspicious irregularities in the voting process.
(2) I voted for the other guy. Both times. Easy choice, both times.
(3) The neoconservative branch of the Republican leadership is clever. They lie, they cheat, and they know how to get away with it - to an extent. This is very unfortunate for the world and for me and my fellow Americans.
(4) We have used military and covert means to influence policy in many countries over the past half century or more. But every time a third world country has a problem and we *don't* intervene just as many people complain. Not all 72 of our interventions have been bad choices, but they are choices made in the context of helping America.
(5) What true, educated Americans are proud of is this:
Our social contract with each other as citizen of the United States of America is that we will work together to help each other live prosperously and safely, but while maintaining our rights to express ourselves freely, engage in faith freely, and conduct ourselves free of persecution and injustice. We are able to mold our contract with each other to better suit these goals.
Unfortunately people are jerks and you get those that try to trample those principles (our current administration, racists/bigots, zealots, even domestic terrorists).
Our challenge as a nation is to be more educated about fundamental global topics such as science and world history, while also becoming more educated about our own foundations and the philosophies behind them.
So what do I like about America right now? That there are millions and millions of people there with the power and opportunity to make it into a shining beacon for the world.
How did a thread called american bashing about being postitive about america turn into an american bashing thread.
Because evidently too many people, this message board included, watch and rely on MTV to tell them what to think, wear, and say. This nation is full of lost sheep waiting and watching for the next move of their favorite actor, musician, or clothing designer. It's interesting to note that more than 80% of the people that wear Che Guevara, anarchy lapel pins, and upside down American flags have no IDEA what they are supporting. Heck, Che's got a sweet hat, a goatee, and they sell it at Hot Topic...he had to have been cool.
There is a lot of talk and a lot of idealistic banter, but when it comes down to it, we have lost a lot of common sense. It's refreshing to see others enjoy looking at our strengths than constantly putting us down. I think people feel more sympathy for Osama and Saddam than our own President.
Anyway, if you can't think of a nice thing to say about the US, I know of plenty of people that would love to move her in your stead. Let me know.
There is a lot of talk and a lot of idealistic banter, but when it comes down to it, we have lost a lot of common sense. It's refreshing to see others enjoy looking at our strengths than constantly putting us down. I think people feel more sympathy for Osama and Saddam than our own President.
Anyway, if you can't think of a nice thing to say about the US, I know of plenty of people that would love to move her in your stead. Let me know.
Every American I've known has been a good laugh, a normal person doing their thing, with their own view of the world - not what MTV/CNN says they should think.
Once, I had the unusual experience of being sat around a table with an American, Canadian, Australian, and a New Zealander (I'm British), on the bank of the Mekong river in Southern Laos. OK, we connected quickly because we were the only people who could speak English in the village, but the differences between us were noticeable.
We all spoke about this while sipping LaoLao (local homebrew/rice-moonshine) and agreed that people are just people wherever they are - yes, with slight cultural/mass media differences, but all individual and living their lives as best they can with the knowledge they have.
Thank goodness for the age of the internet and places like this where we can all share and gain knowledge, stories, views, and experiences. It gives the people of the world a chance, to scratch under the surface for themselves and see that at the end of the day, all "countries" are just a load of people like you and me, in a different place, trying to do their own thing
...and that includes America
Once, I had the unusual experience of being sat around a table with an American, Canadian, Australian, and a New Zealander (I'm British), on the bank of the Mekong river in Southern Laos. OK, we connected quickly because we were the only people who could speak English in the village, but the differences between us were noticeable.
We all spoke about this while sipping LaoLao (local homebrew/rice-moonshine) and agreed that people are just people wherever they are - yes, with slight cultural/mass media differences, but all individual and living their lives as best they can with the knowledge they have.
Thank goodness for the age of the internet and places like this where we can all share and gain knowledge, stories, views, and experiences. It gives the people of the world a chance, to scratch under the surface for themselves and see that at the end of the day, all "countries" are just a load of people like you and me, in a different place, trying to do their own thing
...and that includes America
| benjmd wrote: |
|
Chris, I enjoyed your post because it was well thought-out. There have been several good posts on this topic. |
| Quote: |
|
As an American I would like to defend myself on a few simple points: (1) ~50 million of 300 million Americans elected Bush. Maybe. The elections in 2000 and 2004 were very suspect. He won by margins that could have been reversed by different outcomes in states in which there were suspicious irregularities in the voting process. |
I accept that and I think I have made that point in other postings. I would actually take it a little further and say that without the Florida shinannegins then Bush lost without doubt.
| Quote: |
|
(4) We have used military and covert means to influence policy in many countries over the past half century or more. But every time a third world country has a problem and we *don't* intervene just as many people complain. Not all 72 of our interventions have been bad choices, but they are choices made in the context of helping America. |
| Quote: |
|
Our challenge as a nation is to be more educated about fundamental global topics such as science and world history, while also becoming more educated about our own foundations and the philosophies behind them. |
Total agreement on that. Sagan pointed out that the lack of science in the government of the US is worrying and I agree - how can technical decisions about genetic research, drugs licensing, global warming and other key issues by informed if the legislature is largely science illiterate. Bush disbanded the Scientific Advisory committee if I remember rightly...
I agree with the majority of what you say and only really take issue on the reasons and justifications for interventions...
Chris.
 |