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Nihlism and AtheismWickedGravity
Nihilism states that the world exists with no objective purpose what so ever, Atheism is, of course, the belief in no god, or the belief in the lack of a God if you follow me.
Now, can these two philosophies coexist together in the same brain? Can you be a Nihilistic Atheist? A Atheistic Nihlist? ftasyo
The answer to both is "yes". Example of nihilistic atheism and atheistic nihilism is Sartrian existentialism. bluedragon
No objective purpose?!
How can you live without something to live for? Bikerman
It is no problem to subscribe to both views, they are not at all exclusive,
Chris WickedGravity
Good, at least my belief structure isn't all out of whack.
And bluedragon, there are many things in life that make little or no sense to those that see it from an outside point of view. I'll never understand people who drink their Bread, I mean Guinness, but that is just me. Subsonic Sound
I'm trying to see how they could possibly clash.
Christian Nihilism, I can see being a problem, because Christianity implies that there is a purpose to all that we do. Atheism defies the idea that there's a grand scheme behind it - meaning it fits very well with Nihilism. But atheism - note the lack of a capital - I do not hold it to be a belief system in itself, nor a coherent philosophy, and therefore does not justify a capital letter - atheism does not necessitate Nihilism. I do not believe in God, but I don't think that makes our lives fundamentally pointless. It just means you each have to choose your own point. It's freedom, in a sense.
An utter side-track here, but nor do I. But only because Guinness is a pretty inferior Stout. It's only saving grace is that you can get it anywhere. But compare it to something like Hopback's Entire Stout, and it really does seem the poor cousin. Guinness succeeds through marketing, availability and brand-recognition rather than quality. nopaniers
Yes. Nihilism and atheism are closely linked. It's a depressing state of affairs - but quite a logical one - for an atheist to be a nihilist. A lot of the literature and philosophy in the last century has been an attempt to respond to the hopelessness of nihilism - how to deal in a world without a God and without a clear purpose. Often this involves creating your own meaning, which is fine for some people - but I guess when I was an atheist I found this a little bit intellectually dishonest, kind of brushing the problem under the carpet.
I'm a Christian, and I think Ecclesiates and the gospels present a clear answer to nihilism. Life is not meaningless with a belief in God. Bikerman
Can't agree with this matey. In a sense atheists are sort of nihilsts by default since the word means to hold a position that the world, human life etc have no hidden meaning or agenda and that there is no creator. Importantly, though, Nihilists take this further and say that :
Now I certainly do not take that position and many atheists would not take this line either. Secular ethics seem to me to be not only possible but what we largely now have in reality. Life has no truth...well in a sense that would be true, but personal (secular) morality does not depend on notions of afterlife, design or truth and can be based on personal convictions based on perfectly rational humanist ideas and concepts. I would claim that my own moral code is exactly that, and I would reject the linkage between atheism per se and nihilism. In fact I think it's my tuirn to serve now (15-all ?) and I'm going to go for a swerve ball in the corner : Nietzsche described Christianity as a nihilistic religion in that it evades the challenge of finding meaning in daily life by creating a spiritual construct (heaven, paradise, or whatever term you like) where suffering and pain are avoided rather than being transcended which is the correct approach for a human to take. He argued that Nihilism was a direct consequence of the 'death of God' and was something to be overcome by returning to monoism. He goes on to say that
And later :
Heddeger launched a counter attack on a different front by pointing out that
This approach results in a definition of Nihilism as the reducation of a being to a 'mere value' and Heddeger argues quite strongly that this is the outcome of religion rather than humanism or atheism. OK...that's my service, I wait for the forehand return down the line
Chris. nopaniers
The fundamental difference is that I believe in God. From personal experience, I find that Christianity is the opposite to nihilism. When I was an atheist however, I had a lot of problem assigning real value to anything.
I almost quoted Nietzsche myself. But needless to say I don't regard Christianity in the same way that he does. He does not believe in a God in the first place, so it's not a surprise that he doesn't understand why I would want to submit my life to a God he doesn't know is there. If there was no God, and just a moral code, I'd say that Christianity would be as depressing as Nietzsche paints. However, the point is that there is a God(!) A loving God, who created the universe and through who we all exist. Nietzsche says the way out of his dilema (that he won't accept God, or a moral code based on belief in God) is for people to persue their "will to power" - that is the idea that we all want to control as much as possible. He used idea this to critisize rational thought and Darwinian evolution as well established religion, and has an obvious hatred of Christianity (or perhaps more precisely, the church). His idea of what people should become is "ubermenschen". At least this is my picture of what he thinks through my limited reading. Speaking for myself: God exists. The correct place for me is not above God, creating meaning from my works which are ulitmately meaningless if there is no God (in many cases ficticious meaning - like power, pleasure or knowledge). Many things which people chase after (money for example) to give their lives meaning do not even make people happy. What brings glory to God is what will last. This is reflected in Ecclesiastes, one of the most honest accounts I have ever read of these things:
Without God things are meaningless, so the correct response is to turn to God when things are not meaningless but meaningful.
I think that's a pretty straight shot - no spin - but I have a feeling that this point is a long way from over... trimbaard
HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
Kaneda
The point that Christianity is nihilistic, as seen from Nietzsche's point of view (and to be honest, my own) has nothing to do with whether there is a God or not. It has to do with removing value from this world, and placing it in Heaven, Nirvana, or whatever applies to various religions. It is, as BikerMan so perfectly put it (not saying he subscribes to this point of view - I don't know)
This goes for Buddhist Nirvana too, for example. It's not just about Christianity. But all religions aren't nihilistic either.
Not quite. The "will to power" is the will to control - and know - yourself. When people fail to do that (and find meaning in it), they turn to other people's understanding of them and what norms they should live by. When they fail to live by their own moral and find their own meaning, they resort to placing the meaning outside their life - in an afterlife. Christ himself, in Nietzsche's view of him, was as close to an Übermensch as Nietzsche could find in his past and present, exactly because Christ defined morals for himself which didn't necessarily reflect the established religion and norms at the time. That his morals became a new religion - rather than inspiring others to follow their path - is the problem. That, and the "Kingdom of Heaven", which, as mentioned, is what makes Christianity nihilistic (but of course, certain apocrypha have Christ place the "Kingdom of Heaven" on Earth and in the here and now, which would be - in Nietzsche's view - a much more fruitful philosophy).
And if that brings you meaning, fine. Ultimately, the only totally meaningless thing to do in life is looking at everything as utterly meaningless. If belief brings you out of that, I'm all for it. But it's not for everyone. And no, I don't need it.
Ficticious to you, maybe. To others, maybe not. You can't prescribe a single meaning to everyone's life. That's the whole point. I don't get meaning from power, pleasure or knowledge - or a god for that matter. Some might. It may seem logical to you that belief in God brings meaning. Just as it seems logical to me, that ultimately putting meaning in a goal (afterlife) rather than the journey (this life) - and even a goal which may not even exist - is utterly meaningless and, quite frankly, a waste of the time you have here. Not saying that you drain all value out of this life (some do), but it's a waste of potential to even nurture this excuse for not finding ultimate meaning in the here and now. Point is, people think different.
Mostly, if you ask these people, they've realized (often too late) that they didn't pursue what they really did find meaningful. It's a matter of insight into yourself, not a matter of not having any other options than religion. EDIT: As for Ecclesiastes, my main problem with it (it's wonderfully written - as is the Book of Job, which I have much more of an issue with for different reasons) is that it's one man's experience put forth as objective truth for an entire people. If you recognize yourself in it, that's a good step forward, but that doesn't mean you have to adopt the author's path. Ecclesiastes is the prime example of the ultimate nihilist - rejecting all value in this world, and placing it outside of it. Yantaal
i thought i was an aetheist, in not beleving in god, just thinking there is nothing, life is what we make of it, so most people make a god to give themselves a meaning.
maybe im just a nihilistic. Bikerman
Thanks for the kind words and yes, I think that would be my own position.
A nice summary (in the old meaning of the word - precise, accurate). You have made the points I would have used in my reply so I'll just add my concurrance and wait for the next point
Regards Chris EthicalNihilist
I suggest the book Atheist's Guide to Reality. As it demonstrates (pretty clearly to me)
We have no free will. Our belief in ourselves and our purposes and intentions is an illusion. What we consider our "self" is a illusion created during our evolution for purposes we don't understand. Whatever you believe is probably incorrect. Have a good day.[/i] Bikerman
I think that most philosophers have positions somewhere between zero and 'limited' with regard to free-will now - I don't know any serious philosopher who still hold to free-will in anything other than a very constrained and qualified form. Galen Strawson sums it up as follows:
The only real disagreement comes from the compatibilists (those who believe that determinism and free-will can exist together) like Dan Dennett, who define free-will in a way which makes it fit:
pauline5765
No. Atheism doesn't lead inevitably to anyplace, any more than starting in St. Louis inevitably means you have to end up in New York. It's a starting place, not an entire route; the final destinations at the end of the trip are as many and varied as there are atheists.
Regarding nihilism specifically -- the general philosophical position that our existence (action, suffering, willing, feeling) has no meaning -- it's certainly possible that someone starting out with "I don't believe in god" might end up there. But that's just one possibility among uncountably many other ones. For instance, an atheist might believe that while there is no God, there are other planes of existence to which we might be able to aspire, and thus continue our lives as trans-humans. Or they might believe that we humans are capable of creating our own meaning, which gives our lives purpose and direction. Or that there certain actions are more aligned with the natural order of the universe, and that acting in accordance with those rules is healthier. Or that they live on in their children, and this is the meaning for which they live. You get the idea -- there are lots of different ending positions you might arrive at after beginning with a lack of god-belief. To argue otherwise would be like someone telling a theist "Ah, since you believe in a god, then your fondest wish must inevitably be to die so you can go join Him, and therefore this life has no real meaning for you." In general, whenever you hear someone say "Atheism means ...", swap out "atheism" for "theism" and see how much sense it makes. Atheism and theism are both very, very broad terms; trying to tie either of them down to very specific positions generally leads to errors. Related topics
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