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The FALL of Islam!!





S3nd K3ys
Muslims are leaving Islam in Droves.

In the West, Islam is growing mainly by immigration and the high birth rate of Muslims. Yes, some gullible people are converting to Islam out of great ignorance. But, that is very very small fraction, almost neglible.

Good people who think freely can not maintain peace of heart and mind in Islam. They leave Islam immediately. That's why in the US, more than 75% of new converts leave Islam in just a few years.[/quote]

There are more muslims leaving Islam than new converts join in.

2 million ethnic Muslims converted to Christianity in Russia
http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=513

In Africa, 6 million muslims convert to Christianity every year.
http://www.aljazeera.net/programs/shareea/articles/2000/12/12-12-6.htm
For English Translation : http://www.formermuslims.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=972

"In every hour, 667 Muslims convert to Christianity. Everyday, 16,000 Muslims convert to Christianity. Ever year, 6 million Muslims convert to Christianity. These numbers are very large indeed".

200,000 UK Muslims Left Islam
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1470584,00.html

Mullahs and Imams Leave Islam and Enter Christianity.
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=61734

50,000 Muslim Teenagers Murtads in Malaysia
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=30&topicdays=0&start=25

Thousands of Kashmiri Muslims leave Islam !
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2002/010/12.26.html

Thousands of Bangladeshi, North African, Kashmiri, Indian Muslims, Central Asian Muslims Leave Islam.
http://www.religionjournal.com/showarticle.asp?id=2579&ardate=6/13/2005

10,000 french muslims converted to Christianity
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14838

Some 35,000 Turks converted from Islam to Christianity last year
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/139/story_13903_1.html
Dragonfly
I have opened all the external links you have provided. How did you research on those topics. This trend is alarming. It looks like things are changing fast ever since 9/11.
S3nd K3ys
Believe it or not, a (very lengthy) visit to Muslimconverts.com for something entirely different got me started on a fact-finding tour which ultimately ended up with this thread. I found the list on another web site.
The Conspirator
A bunch of links to mostly biased and inaccurate sites don't prove a thing.

Most valid sources say Islam is the fastest growing religion.
yy1124
I didn know there are so many of them converting to other religion.

In my country, you will end up in court if you convert from muslim, or worst
Rhysige
Social pressure and fear of discrimination and violent acts against them could be classed as pretty good reasons to Convert..

All sources are bias, if you pick enough bias in your favour then you create the illusion that it is accurate because all sources selected are saing a similar thing.
S3nd K3ys
yy1124 wrote:
I didn know there are so many of them converting to other religion.


Many are in denial and many don't know. But they ARE leaving in droves. (You will, of course, get the moon-bat kool-aid drinkers like our esteemed and highly mis-guided friend Con who will deny any and all evidence that speaks the contrary, just as they would any other subject they know nothing about or refuse to accept. Wink )

Quote:

In my country, you will end up in court if you convert from muslim, or worst


I've heard this a lot. One of the consistancies I've heard about Islam is that you will be in grave danger if you leave the religion. There seems to be very little tolerance for it, and this (I believe) is (at least) part of the reason many muslims will not publically and openly denounce the actions of those using a twisted interpretation of Islam.
tidruG
It's not alarming... with the current trend being "Hate all the Muslim! All Muslims are to be racially discriminated against! All Muslims are terrorists! Spread anti-Islamic propaganda!", it's not really surprising that many are converting.

And Christianity is the best bet... I mean, almost all the really big political powers have Christianity as their major religion, so it's the safest bet.
loyal
peace be upon you.

some people leave Islam. I have no idea of the numbers. But i would guess it's not a lot compared to how many convert to Islam. Islam is growing fastest in the world. One could argue that its growth rate has been decreased by lots of people thinking badly of it, but that's only the people who aren't interested in Islam or religion, or are crazy religious guys, or some people who just want to cause problems. It's actually benefited partly from 9/11 from all the attention it has recieved. It's distinguished those who bother to research Islam and see if it is violent and those who just say it is.

Anyway, i've already proven it's growing fast. I haven't proven it's growing the fastest because i don't have enough statistics for other religions.

-209,020,000, (1935), World Almanac and Book of Facts
-700,000,000, (1983), Readers Digest Almanac and Yearbook
-0.951 billion, (1993), The Cambridge Factfinder
-0.700 billion or more, (1993), Barnes & Noble Encyclopedia
-0.817 billion, (1996), The Universal Almanac
-1,126,325,000, (1996), 1997 Britannica Book of the Year.
-1.100 billion, (1997), The World Almanac*
-1.200 billion, (1999), CAIR (Council on American-Islamic relations)
-1,188,242,789, (2000), David A. Barrett, World Christian Encyclopedia,
2001, p 13-15 (according to bible.ca)
-1,400,000,000, (2006) 1.4 Billion Muslims, Average made by me between
Christians claiming 1.3 and Muslims claiming 1.5

*note: these figures are randomly taken from different sources. At no point did Islam start loosing Muslims more than it gained. It's a difference of statistics. If i claim 1.3 Muslims in the world and you claim 1.2 next year, it does not mean they decreased.

The word population growth per year: 1.14% (2000) (figure obtained from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_population)
The Muslim population growth per year: 2.96%** (figures 2000 and 2006 used to find population growth.)

So the Muslim population is growing faster than the world population.

Quote:

tidruG said:
And Christianity is the best bet... I mean, almost all the really big political powers have Christianity as their major religion, so it's the safest bet.


Lol. That's not a good idea. Just because so and so has christianity as their religion, does not mean that it's right. I don't think God intended the 'right' religion to be found by copying the people in the power. It's found by researching lots of religions, applying logic, and picking one. In other words, you pick your own religion.

Note: I publically say osma bin laden and any other violence is wrong, except for self-defence and war. Osma bin laden is wrong.

May God bless you.
tidruG
You missed my sarcasm. I never said Christianity is the right religion just because most people follow it. I just said it's one of the best religions to convert to if you want to try and get rid of the religious discrimination you're facing in the western world.

In fact, I think all religions are flawed to a certain extent... and the human race, in its quest for power and influnce will probably never let any religion be truly peaceful...

May peace be upon you too Smile
palavra
S3nd K3ys wrote:


Some 35,000 Turks converted from Islam to Christianity last year
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/139/story_13903_1.html


this is bullshit.

i am from turkiye and up to now i only know 3 person converted from islam to christianity

and

1 men converted from islam to jews.

but i know more than thousands converted to islam

but i think some people from usa come to turkiye and other muslim country for missionary.

they take money from some soft-hearted, foolish , devoted cristians

and

they tell them 35.000 turks became christians.


why should a muslim become chiristian ?

what can chiristianity give to a person that already has all the good moral values.
S3nd K3ys
palavra wrote:
S3nd K3ys wrote:


Some 35,000 Turks converted from Islam to Christianity last year
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/139/story_13903_1.html


this is bullshit.

i am from turkiye and up to now i only know 3 person converted from islam to christianity



Easy with the language there little fella. This is a kids show.

Quote:
why should a muslim become chiristian ?


If I answered that I'd get called a racist, (it has to do with truth and democracy) so go look for yourself. Link
palavra
S3nd K3ys wrote:

Easy with the language there little fella. This is a kids show.


then don't tell lies to kids Mad

actually

it is very easy to find the answer to our problem

come to Turkiye
it is a nice country to travel a month
find 100 Turks that converted from islam to christianity

then
i will say sorry and will not talk about this subject forever and i will pay your plane ticket -this offer is valid for all naive christians that believe this nonsense.-
but
if you cannot find (certainly you will not )
accept you are wrong!
S3nd K3ys
palavra wrote:
S3nd K3ys wrote:

Easy with the language there little fella. This is a kids show.


then don't tell lies to kids Mad


I didn't tell lies. I provided links to substantiate my claims. Unlike you, who have only succeeded in validating my belief that when someone says something you don't like/agree with, you respond by degrading them (me) and spewing rhetoric.

palavra wrote:
Mad
Rolling Eyes

Also, as for "turks" converting from Islam, perhaps that guy that hijacked that plane counts.

Also, read some other news...

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/139/story_13903_1.html

Quote:
Many Turks Become Christians
United Press International
Istanbul, Jan. 23--(UPI) Some 35,000 Turks converted from Islam to Christianity last year,with most joining evangelical congregations the newspaper, "Milliet," reports. If true, this would amount to a mass movement, considering Christians make up only 0.2 percent of Turkey's 68 million population. "This is news to me," said the Rev. Holger Nollmann, the German Protestant pastor in Istanbul.

However, Ihsan Ozbek, president of the Council of Independent Protestant congregations, said more and more Turks were turning toward Christianity. "However, given the Islamic environment in which we live, most Turks coming to our congregations do not wish to make waves.

The German protestant news service Idea reported most converts are descendants of Orthodox Christians who ostensibly became Muslims to avoid being killed in Turkey's 1914-22 genocide of its Armenian minority."


It's not like it's public (or safe) to convert from Islam, so do you honestly think people are going to talk a lot about it? Especially to strangers? Be realistic.
palavra
S3nd K3ys wrote:

I provided links to substantiate my claims. Unlike you, who have only succeeded in validating my belief that when someone says something you don't like/agree with, you respond by degrading them (me) and spewing rhetoric.

.


http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3274735,00.html

http://forum.mpacuk.org/archive/index.php?t-2669.html



http://www.islamawareness.net/LatinAmerica/hispanic_growing.html

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0110/p13s1-woaf.html

http://www.themodernreligion.com/women/women_why_converting.htm

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/4229/women.html

http://www.islamamerica.org/articles.cfm/article_id/20/

http://www.unholywars.org/entry/75-women-convert-to-islam-in-bahrain/

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/bmh/BMH-IRO-famous_muslims.htm

http://izzymo.wordpress.com/

http://www.greeleytrib.com/article/20060708/RELIGION/107080117

http://www.jews-for-allah.org/

http://thetruereligion.org/modules/xfsection/index.php?category=1

http://www.themodernreligion.com/convert/convert_websites.htm

http://thetruereligion.org/modules/xfsection/article.php?articleid=158


http://www.islamfortoday.com/england01.htm

http://watchingamerica.com/iraq4all000007.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A53018-2002Sep22.html

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1227/p01s04-woeu.html

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9352969/

http://www.geocities.com/embracing_islam/a.html

http://sultan.org/articles/convert.html
http://www.islamfortoday.com/converts_2.htm

http://www.irshad.org/info_q/reverts/ubarry.php

http://www.salaam.co.uk/themeofthemonth/june02_index.php?l=21

http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,,739312,00.html

http://www.dw-world.de/popups/popup_printcontent/0,,1894834,00.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Ellison_%28politician%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yusuf_Estes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Winter

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Lings

http://www.themodernreligion.com/convert/convert_goethe.htm

http://www.therefinersfire.org/islam_in_germany.htm

http://jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/001112.php

http://hispanictips.com/2006/07/08/latinos-islam-conversion/

http://www.nzmuslim.net/

http://www.jamaat.net/race/raceanswer.htm

http://www.cmf.org.uk/outreach/content.asp?context=article&id=1410

http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2003-12/12/article07.shtml

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3349539493927246708

http://nazimfarhan.blogspot.com/2006/02/convert-muslims-to-islam.html

http://www.texnews.com/religion97/muslim110197.html

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/7368/w_enough.htm

http://progmuslim.meetup.com/164/?gj=sj5

http://www.news.cornell.edu/Chronicle/05/2.3.05/Islam_Awareness.html


http://www.zaman.com/?bl=myfamily&alt=&trh=20050701&hn=21234
palavra
S3nd K3ys wrote:
[It's not like it's public (or safe) to convert from Islam, so do you honestly think people are going to talk a lot about it? Especially to strangers? Be realistic.


it is quite safe

don't worry

as i said there are a few turkish people converted to christianity

up to now nothing happened to them

it is clear you don't need to prove anything to me Wink
but think about yourself
woke up
come to Turkiye

in turkey there are a few hundrand thousand christians
they live in this country more than 1000 years
they are older than us(turks) in this country
they live freely
they have hundrands of every kinds of churches.

come and ask them
how many turks converted to christianity
but ask them to see the converted turks

because as i told before
some of these people for the only sake of money that missionary gives them can tell you a story about 30.000 converted turks Wink

offering to a normal turk
to be a christian will be taken a big offense

because
we think ourselves
guardians of islam Cool
mustaq
I don’t believe in this statistic because in my country there are lots of Christian missionary are closed because there bribe the people to convert to Christian well my country is not Islam majority, and those static are very un correct so i don’t think people will fall in this trap this is one kind of marking to convert the people to Christian

One more question you people say that people Islam people are wild in there religion do you think you able to convert those kind of people please don’t post non-sense over here
Good way to earn points

Laughing
abedalmged
Peace be upon you,
why you are so hasty (post of this topic), islam will enter every place and every house in that world, it's seen now. no one in this world had not heard about islam.
no matter if someone converts from islam and to islam. when islam started their was a prophet and one beliver!!! one believer+God (who want's the good for people by spreading islam) will change the world and will rescue the balance of that world.
i can say that christians convert to islam, jews convert little. budahisim which they have nothing to deal with religous insist on praying to idols, so every one got busy with his belief.
i think the religious which is making advances and spreading today is islam. christianity remains in churchs, judaism remains in israel and in "kepa" and "torah" while islam is spreading by believers , ordinary people, TV, politics, countries,papers,voices , noises, travelers, argues, judgments, victories their and here, islam is spreading while the usa is spreading to fight islam. islam is becoming stronger as long as you and other christians become stronger in fighting islam.
one muslem who converts to other were not realy a muslem so muslems loses nothing, and this muslem who converts to christianity (which don't belive in one god) has nothing to feed christians except for growing in number!
one muslem can lead a fight and win against many "fools" who don't have the base of belief ,because he will not loose anything he is a winner at the first minute he start the fight. those "fools" are the people who know how to argue and waste time while death is reaching and getting closer to everyone! they are really "fools", what are you doing people argueing what god is? god is god created you so start praying to him and believe in him before meeting him with shame!!!!!
The Conspirator
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam#Denominations
Quote:
There are a number of Islamic religious denominations, each of which have significant theological and legal differences from each other but possess similar essential beliefs. The major schools of thought are Sunni and Shi'a; Sufism is generally considered to be a mystical inflection of Islam rather than a distinct school. According to most sources, present estimates indicate that approximately 85% of the world's Muslims are Sunni and approximately 15% are Shi'a. [14] [15]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fastest_Growing_Religion
Quote:
The current annual growth rate has dropped to 2.9%..[6]


http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_religious_groups
Soulfire
The Conspirator wrote:
A bunch of links to mostly biased and inaccurate sites don't prove a thing.

Most valid sources say Islam is the fastest growing religion.

And what is your idea of a valid source? Your own mind?

Quote:
None of us will live to see it, but before this millennium is over, Islam is likely to have joined the myths of ancient Egypt, Greece and Rome as a religion that was tested and failed.

The violence being visited upon the world by al Qaeda and other Islamic fundamentalists cannot survive a "holy war" against America and the West. Jihad's chosen instrument---terror---did not save Communism from its failure in the last century's police state of the Soviet Union and it will not save Islam in the Middle East and elsewhere.

The biggest flaw of the Koran is what is not in it. There are many crimes a person can commit; yet the Koran mentions only the punishments for a mere three or four. I was astonished at the fact that the Koran mentions nothing about punishment for rape. The word 'rape' is not even mentioned once in the Koran, as if it were not worth bringing up.

Yet another says, "I could not remain a Muslim because Islam hates women. Islam says that women are inferior in every way. What sort of religion forces fathers to make their daughters suffer? Islam has no joy. Islam is a cult of tears and death."

The Koran is a guide to war. Thievery was the way Muhammad supported himself as the self-proclaimed prophet and conquest was the way Muhammad and his followers initially spread Islam. The United States, a target and a victim in this Jihad, is waging war to end the Islamic dream of domination. In this it has been joined by many nations, including those that are Islamic. This should be seen as a hopeful sign.

I believe this century will be remembered as the one in which Islam began its long march to extinction. It will be defeated in its terror war and it will be defeated because many will abandon a "religion" that is repelled by modernity, denies human rights, and revels in the blood of its victims, calling their killers martyrs.


Quotes from 'The Decline and Fall of Islam' article as well as the book
Why I am Not A Muslim
The Conspirator
An objective source that only looks at the facts and dose not have an opinion ether.

Basically, almost none in this thread including that book you site.
tidruG
Soulfire wrote:
The Conspirator wrote:
A bunch of links to mostly biased and inaccurate sites don't prove a thing.

Most valid sources say Islam is the fastest growing religion.

And what is your idea of a valid source? Your own mind?

Quote:
None of us will live to see it, but before this millennium is over, Islam is likely to have joined the myths of ancient Egypt, Greece and Rome as a religion that was tested and failed.

The violence being visited upon the world by al Qaeda and other Islamic fundamentalists cannot survive a "holy war" against America and the West. Jihad's chosen instrument---terror---did not save Communism from its failure in the last century's police state of the Soviet Union and it will not save Islam in the Middle East and elsewhere.

The biggest flaw of the Koran is what is not in it. There are many crimes a person can commit; yet the Koran mentions only the punishments for a mere three or four. I was astonished at the fact that the Koran mentions nothing about punishment for rape. The word 'rape' is not even mentioned once in the Koran, as if it were not worth bringing up.

Yet another says, "I could not remain a Muslim because Islam hates women. Islam says that women are inferior in every way. What sort of religion forces fathers to make their daughters suffer? Islam has no joy. Islam is a cult of tears and death."

The Koran is a guide to war. Thievery was the way Muhammad supported himself as the self-proclaimed prophet and conquest was the way Muhammad and his followers initially spread Islam. The United States, a target and a victim in this Jihad, is waging war to end the Islamic dream of domination. In this it has been joined by many nations, including those that are Islamic. This should be seen as a hopeful sign.

I believe this century will be remembered as the one in which Islam began its long march to extinction. It will be defeated in its terror war and it will be defeated because many will abandon a "religion" that is repelled by modernity, denies human rights, and revels in the blood of its victims, calling their killers martyrs.


Quotes from 'The Decline and Fall of Islam' article as well as the book
Why I am Not A Muslim

You do realize that on the one hand you're questioning his idea of a valid source, and on the other, you're posting from a source that could result in my cause of death to be laughter if someone told me that it's a valid, unbiased source, don't you?
LeviticusMky
Islam is the same religion as Christianity, just in a different language.

It's interesting to watch people try to convince themselves that their religion will win the "terror wars."

I guess I'm guilty of the same thing, I hope that atheism grows as people get smarter, though there is no atheist presence in the middle east. I guess we'll just wait and see.
Tyler
These numbers are very signifigant. I, being a Dane and a Jew, can report that over half of Muslims who move to either Denmark, Norway, Sweden, the Netherlands, and Poland convert to either Christianity or Judaism. To be specific:

    61% convert to Judaism
    35% convert to Christianity
    1.7% convert to Indigenous Scandinavian or Lapp beliefs
    0.3% become non-religious
    and the final 2% convert to Baltic islandic or Bothnian indigenous beliefs


Information courtesy Danish Department of Population Statistics Census and Survey Bureau

It really shows, doesn't it?
The Conspirator
Yes, 4 country's shows whats happening in the whole world. I suppose the vast majority of the people in the world are white too.
Soulfire
Quote:
You do realize that on the one hand you're questioning his idea of a valid source, and on the other, you're posting from a source that could result in my cause of death to be laughter if someone told me that it's a valid, unbiased source, don't you?

There's no such thing as an unbiased source.
The Conspirator
Yes there is. There isn't such thing as an unbiased person but there are people who can put there opinions aside and state only the provable facts.
xalophus
Why is everybody getting so worked up about conversions, while the contribution of conversions to a religion's growth is dwarfed by other sources of growth ?

Consider the most populous Christian and Muslim nations of the world (taken from CIA factbook) -

Top three most populous Christian countries
USA
298 Million, growing at 0.91% annually.

Brazil
188 Million, growing at 1.04% annually.

Mexico
107 Million, growing at 1.16% annually.

Total population - 593 Million.
Together, they grow by 6 Million people every year.




Top three most populous Muslim countries
Indonesia
245 Million, growing at 1.41% annually.

Pakistan
165 Million, growing at 2.09% annually.

Bangladesh
147 Million, growing at 2.09% annually.

Total population - 557 Million.
Together, they grow by 10 Million people every year.



Those who want, can still apply the negligible adjustments for the conversions. Wink
tidruG
Soulfire wrote:
Quote:
You do realize that on the one hand you're questioning his idea of a valid source, and on the other, you're posting from a source that could result in my cause of death to be laughter if someone told me that it's a valid, unbiased source, don't you?

There's no such thing as an unbiased source.

For the sake of subjectivity, I'll agree with you.
However, like The Conspirator said, there are enough sources which only state the facts and let you choose what to think, at least to a satisfactory level.

And for the sake of objectvity, I'd also say that there is such a thing as an unbiased source or an unbiased person. Find a man who's passionately dispassionate about a particular incident/action that he knows well, and he will give you only the facts, without really caring about what you'd think.
Soulfire
But even facts I have presented - say, the growth rate of Christianity Vs. the growth rate or Islam have been dismissed due to "biased sources."

So, what exactly is an unbiased fact? Where can I find such things? Because apparently anytime I try to talk, my sources are biased. Or are my sources biased because people simply have no other argument? At any rate, it's getting old.

And even so - even if Islam is growing faster than Christianity, even if Islam surpasses Christianity as the world's largest religion - that does not mean Islam is right.
The Conspirator
The facts are unbiased, cause the facts are just facts. And yes your sources are biased, thats the problem of using google. Christan.com is biased, former Muslims.com is biased, you need to find a site that dose not have an opinion that only states the facts, thats why I keep using wikipedea, it dose have its problems but the vast majority of it is unbiased and only states the facts. Going to Christan sites, Muslim sites, Atheist sites. They are biased. You need an unbiased site that dose not have an opinions, that only reports the facts. And that is extremely hard to find on the internet.

This topic isn't even about if Islam is right. Christianity is not right, its based on mythology as is Islam and Judaism ans well as many others.. Even philosophical braced religions (such as Buddhism) can't be said to be right.
S3nd K3ys
The Conspirator wrote:
blah blah bias


Oh I get it now... if the facts are good for you, they're ok, if they're not, they're biased sources, rendering the facts useless. All of them. Unless you say they're ok.

I guess Billy nailed it.

Thanks for clearing that up. Rolling Eyes
tidruG
Soulfire wrote:
But even facts I have presented - say, the growth rate of Christianity Vs. the growth rate or Islam have been dismissed due to "biased sources."

Where?

Quote:
So, what exactly is an unbiased fact? Where can I find such things? Because apparently anytime I try to talk, my sources are biased. Or are my sources biased because people simply have no other argument?

No, a biased source is a biased source. It takes common sense to realise a biased source is biased. Go to cnn.com and find a story about what a pathetic job Bush is doing in Iraq, and any idiot would tell you it's biased. Similarly, going to formermuslims.com or something similar and using it to post arguments for why Islam is bad is biased too.

Quote:
At any rate, it's getting old.

Precisely. So, let's just stop using biased sources.

Quote:
And even so - even if Islam is growing faster than Christianity, even if Islam surpasses Christianity as the world's largest religion - that does not mean Islam is right.

And who said that majority is right?
The only person I remember who used to have that kind of thinking is currently banned... he'd constantly say that Christians were a majority in the US and everyone else is unimportant.
Deuc
Islam, like all other religions, relies on a series of laws and the obedience of man and his ability to accomplish things to provide salvation.

If there are indeed people leaving Islam for other religions, my hope is that they would leave this religion of strict regulations and control for a religion that allows God to do the work. Since no human being can keep the law perfectly, there is no hope unless God fulfills the law himself.
S3nd K3ys
tidruG wrote:

No, a biased source is a biased source. It takes common sense to realise a biased source is biased. Go to cnn.com and find a story about what a pathetic job Bush is doing in Iraq, and any idiot would tell you it's biased. Similarly, going to formermuslims.com or something similar and using it to post arguments for why Islam is bad is biased too.


Just because a source is biased does not make the information biased, as Con would have you believe.

CNN, even being owned by Ted Turner, who can't decide if he's for terrorism or against it, reports facts. It's a fact that something exploded in NK. The slant CNN puts on it, to attack Bush, is biased.
tidruG
S3nd K3ys wrote:
tidruG wrote:

No, a biased source is a biased source. It takes common sense to realise a biased source is biased. Go to cnn.com and find a story about what a pathetic job Bush is doing in Iraq, and any idiot would tell you it's biased. Similarly, going to formermuslims.com or something similar and using it to post arguments for why Islam is bad is biased too.


Just because a source is biased does not make the information biased, as Con would have you believe.

CNN, even being owned by Ted Turner, who can't decide if he's for terrorism or against it, reports facts. It's a fact that something exploded in NK. The slant CNN puts on it, to attack Bush, is biased.

You're right... facts are included even in biased articles (sometimes). However, when quoting articles, I've noticed (and surely you have too), that mostly, phrases which are not always just facts get highlighted. Also, remember that a person reading a particular part of an article from a biased source is not reading just the facts, he's reading the biased article. The slanty play with words can get quite irritating (at the least)
Soulfire
tidruG wrote:
S3nd K3ys wrote:
tidruG wrote:

No, a biased source is a biased source. It takes common sense to realise a biased source is biased. Go to cnn.com and find a story about what a pathetic job Bush is doing in Iraq, and any idiot would tell you it's biased. Similarly, going to formermuslims.com or something similar and using it to post arguments for why Islam is bad is biased too.


Just because a source is biased does not make the information biased, as Con would have you believe.

CNN, even being owned by Ted Turner, who can't decide if he's for terrorism or against it, reports facts. It's a fact that something exploded in NK. The slant CNN puts on it, to attack Bush, is biased.

You're right... facts are included even in biased articles (sometimes). However, when quoting articles, I've noticed (and surely you have too), that mostly, phrases which are not always just facts get highlighted. Also, remember that a person reading a particular part of an article from a biased source is not reading just the facts, he's reading the biased article. The slanty play with words can get quite irritating (at the least)

But still, what if I highlight biased things because I agree with them. Am I not allowed to have an opinion and highlight it too? Just because a source may be biased, it shouldn't be dismissed. If that was the case, everything in the 'Discuss World News' board would be locked because it's biased.

Everyone's supposed to have a bias, an opinion to what they're talking about.
S3nd K3ys
Soulfire wrote:
Am I not allowed to have an opinion and highlight it too?


No. Because even if it's true, it's biased and that makes your point null and void. Right, Con?
Wink
The Conspirator
S3nd K3ys wrote:
tidruG wrote:

No, a biased source is a biased source. It takes common sense to realise a biased source is biased. Go to cnn.com and find a story about what a pathetic job Bush is doing in Iraq, and any idiot would tell you it's biased. Similarly, going to formermuslims.com or something similar and using it to post arguments for why Islam is bad is biased too.


Just because a source is biased does not make the information biased, as Con would have you believe.

CNN, even being owned by Ted Turner, who can't decide if he's for terrorism or against it, reports facts. It's a fact that something exploded in NK. The slant CNN puts on it, to attack Bush, is biased.


A biased source is a biased source any information you get from it is biased. Unbiased sources only report the facts no matter what the facts say, biased sources only report things that support there opinions weather they are true or not, unbiased sources report information on all sides, biased sources only report information from 1 side.

Yeah, Ted Turner supports Islamic extremism. What other things dose he support? Maybe he was th one actually behind the killing of those Amish students, maybe hes behind the shit in Daerfor.
How come if you don't like what someone is saying you say they support "terrorism"?
CNN makes bush look stupid? Well maybe thats because Jr. is stupid. Its not hard to make someone look stupid if they are.
tidruG
Soulfire wrote:
But still, what if I highlight biased things because I agree with them. Am I not allowed to have an opinion and highlight it too? Just because a source may be biased, it shouldn't be dismissed. If that was the case, everything in the 'Discuss World News' board would be locked because it's biased.

As long as you're not using a biased story to backup a claim that needs fact to back it up, you can use a biased source... but it's pointless and annoying to use a biased source to prove something or to use it as a fact.
You're free to quote a very biased person, as long as you say openly that that person is biased (and maybe spreading propaganda), and that you agree with his opinions.
eg: You take a biased person's biased article about violence in the Qu'ran and then make a post about "The Truth About Islam", for example... that, in my opinion, is not even worth reading or giving thought to, nor worth even discussing.
On the other hand, quote the passages directly from the Qu'ran, and then state how you think there's violence in the religion itself... that's no biased. You could later in the article use the biased person's biased article to get YOUR opinion across.

Quote:
Everyone's supposed to have a bias, an opinion to what they're talking about.

Not really...
take an example... I'm a reporter for a small college supplement in a daily newspaper, but I couldn't care less about the elections taking place in some college somewhere... so I go there, take down the facts (like who contested, who won and by how much of a margin, etc) and report it without any bias.
By the way, we're getting waaaay off-topic.
S3nd K3ys
tidruG wrote:

You're free to quote a very biased person, as long as you say openly that that person is biased (and maybe spreading propaganda), and that you agree with his opinions.


Whooaaaa..... who is the all-knowing all-seeing being which will decide who is 'very' biased?

Shall we start a list of those that are biased and those that are not? This is really starting to get silly. Rolling Eyes
Billy Hill
S3nd K3ys wrote:
tidruG wrote:

You're free to quote a very biased person, as long as you say openly that that person is biased (and maybe spreading propaganda), and that you agree with his opinions.


Whooaaaa..... who is the all-knowing all-seeing being which will decide who is 'very' biased?

Shall we start a list of those that are biased and those that are not? This is really starting to get silly. Rolling Eyes


i vote we let conspirator be the judge of what is biased and what is not. Laughing Laughing Laughing
The Conspirator
You people know what unbiased means.
palavra
The Conspirator wrote:
You people know what unbiased means.


i don't think so.

because they believe

" anyone who strong is right"
tidruG
S3nd K3ys wrote:
tidruG wrote:

You're free to quote a very biased person, as long as you say openly that that person is biased (and maybe spreading propaganda), and that you agree with his opinions.


Whooaaaa..... who is the all-knowing all-seeing being which will decide who is 'very' biased?

Shall we start a list of those that are biased and those that are not? This is really starting to get silly. Rolling Eyes

Oh my! Till today, I always thought it was just a question of simple common sense to read an article and know it's biased. Or maybe you can tell it's biased by looking at the source... Shocked

I didn't think it'd take a rocket scientist to figure out that something is biased.
Tyler
Soulfire wrote:
But even facts I have presented - say, the growth rate of Christianity Vs. the growth rate or Islam have been dismissed due to "biased sources."

So, what exactly is an unbiased fact? Where can I find such things? Because apparently anytime I try to talk, my sources are biased. Or are my sources biased because people simply have no other argument? At any rate, it's getting old.

And even so - even if Islam is growing faster than Christianity, even if Islam surpasses Christianity as the world's largest religion - that does not mean Islam is right.


I so heavily agree. Islam has surpassed Judaism for many, many years, but the Jews (my family included) have not bowed to Muhammad yet, have they? If population made a religion more powerful, Christianity, being the world's most populous religion, and a peaceful one at that, would have used that its peaceful ideals to vanquish extremist Islam and other radical beliefs.

It's not right for peaceful Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Muslims (the non-radicals) and others to suffer because extremist Muslims spill innocent blood and justify it "in the name of the Jihad."
Amibotherd
i think you are all missing the point here. The world is spiraling into another crusade period where the two main religions of the world are pitted against each other in a fight to the death. Fueled by the media on the part of the Christian nations and the fanatics on the part of Islam. Both religions have their peaceful forgiving sides but they are being overlooked or swept under the carpet by those (on both sides) who are hell bent on destroying the other. In my view both are wrong. I only joined this discussion because I was incensed by a comment about Buddhists worshiping false gods. For a start Buddha isn't a God it's a way of life. Buddhists don't believe in an omnipresent being who created the world. You can be Buddha just as I can be Buddha. It's about a state of mind. The image or statues of Buddha we see in the world today derive from a young Indian noble mans son called Siddhartha Gautama Shakyamuni who found his own path to enlightenment. He certainly wasn't the first Buddha and absolutely not the last, if fact Buddhas are created every day when good men and women die after a lifetime of devotion to helping others less fortunate than themselves. Don't get me wrong, Buddhist nations go to war with each other but it's mainly due to greed and power on the part of the rulers rather than a wish of the majority. When a Buddhist prays at the foot of a statue he/she isn't asking some mythical God to help put food on the table or make them rich. They ask for good health and good luck for the people they care about. It is most un Buddhist like to wish for something for yourself. What they are really doing is empowering the goodness that is within all humans to help each other. That's where we come to faith. Faith is a different matter entirely. Faith in what you believe can cure illness, can make you stronger to support those you care about, that has nothing to do with a God in heaven but everything to do with how you go about your daily life. If the whole world was Buddhist it would be a lot more transparent that power and greed are what drive men and nations to commit to war with each other. Love light and peace to all men and women.
Bikerman
You have the same problem as every other apologist. I can point to examples of Buddhist atrocity (from WW2 Japan right up to the present day goings on in Indonesia). You respond (just like the Muslims, Christians and every other apologist) that this is not the religion but, instead, a perverted and distorted version of it. That argument doesn't wash with me. It is simply one more example of the 'no true Scotsman' fallacy.
johans
based on my experience working in middle east 5 years ago.. Christian who convert to Islam or Muslims are very rare. i can say 1% only. But 1% are people who are not devoted on that percentage.

They just transfer or move to Islam or Muslim due to monetary because once you convert on there religion they offer monetary equivalent.

So far, that is based on what i know working in middle east before.
tonberry
Irrelevant discussion nowadays since 9 years after the thread was started, a radically different picture can be seen.

First of all, number of converts has nothing to do with how popular a religion is. Religious conversion are a marginal thing. What drives the statistics is the birthrate of people of different faiths and here Muslims outbreed everyone else.

Second, demographics. Muslims currently flood Europe and our governments and media are too ignorant to even admit it. What are Christians flooding?

Third, Muslims are aggressive in their expansion and ready to die for their fanatical beliefs. Christians, not exactly. If Muslims would reach 40% population in Europe and they would absolutely start terrorizing people of different faith, what resistance would they receive from Christians? Absolutely zero resistance.

In my country's capital, Muslims start gaining in strength and little ghettos start to emerge. Not as drastic as Sweden or UK by any stretch of the imagination but it's beginning. Recently, they gathered and decided to pray on a crowded street in the middle of the day so they paralyzed part of the city, people couldn't get to work etc. The obvious reason to pick that kind of time and place was to play on people's nerves, demonstrate their power and see how much they can get away with. Results? Police escort to make sure they can take however much time they need and pray peacefully. A week or two later, decision was made about a date of protest against Islamification of Poland with lots of people from around the country signing for it. City ruled it as illegal gathering and threatened jail to people who will dare to show up. Media depicted the gathering idea as right wing extremist racism....

Here's how demoncracy works in central Europe.
spinout
From an old religion to another old religion... No big deal. It would much cooler if they left for a modern religion or non at all.
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