Hey,
I'm Roman Catholic. I like it, but not for the same reasons. I believe because I like having some sort of answers--why we're here and what we're supposed to be doing. I now have a goal, a way to measure my success. And it seems very fulfulling. Money never has fulfilled me for long. That's why I believe. But that's not why I'm posting.
I'm posting because a recent discussion in the classroom sparked an enormous debate that ended in each student expressing total differences in their philosiphy on life. A few kids expressed their doubts, and one kid directly said that there is no God. Now, I don't understand. What do you build your life on, if not God? Money caves in. I tried building my life on money, and was sorely disappointed when all my posessions broke (a $400 mini-dv camera with "corrosion damage", a $200ish iPod nano with a broken screen--that's a lot of money for a teen to come up with). Do you build on personal pleasure? That just doesn't seem right, and I don't know why not. Maybe it's just the principles I have burned into my mind, but I really don't believe I'm here for fun. Other than money, personal pleasure, and God, what is there to live for? I can't honestly come up with anything else. God has calmed me down in tough spots. He's given me a strong foundation to build my life on; a strong, defined goal to strive for. Even if it isn't Him directly calming me down, just the thought of Him is enough to act as a security blanket. Where do nonbelievers get their comfort from? I can see how it would be easy to logic your way out of believing, but the one question I keep coming back to is--why are we here? I just can't swallow the philosiphy of promoting yourself.
How do nonbelievers do it?
We find our own purpose, its not rear, most theists are the same way. They will believe it for a variety of reasons but most don't find any purpose in it so they find there own, or not. Purpose isn't really a bid deal fro most, only a few and most of those join crazy (as in crazier than Christianity which is very crazy) cults.
All gods are just fairy tales, imaginary surrogate parent substitutes invented by sleazy, cynical temple toll booth attendants, and accepted uncritically as ego defense mechanisms by the desperate masses.
But just because people want to believe something is true, even desperately believe, doesn't make it so. Gods are no more real than the imaginary friends children invent (but cause a lot more grief in the world).
Gods do not exist. Only you do. And when you realize that, once you get past the stark terror or realizing that you really are all alone in an unkind, insane universe to fend for yourself, you will begin to realize the most profound, incredible, empowering freedom and self -esteem that you could ever hope to experience.
By the way, did I say there are no gods? Well, I lied. There is actually one, and only one real god, and that is . . .
YOU!
I pretty much go along with the last two godless heathens. Purpose is something you find for yourself. It's no huge deal.
Death is something you work out for yourself as well. It can be a scarey concept to start with but, in the words of a Greek whose name escapes me..
'Where death is, I am not and where I am, death is not so what is there to fear ?'
For me, the belief system needed for a proper acceptance of Catholic dogma is something I will never understand or possess.
I know a lot of people don't think about it very hard and just go along with it, but I can't do that. If I think something is silly, ridiculous or impossible then I have no 'overirde' switch that kicks in and says - 'just accept it, it'll be fine'. I have a big red button that is connected to my Paxman-Collosus (I like that newly coined region of the brain. Paxman is a UK TV newscaster who is renowned for being hard on his guests.). Once the red button is triggered then my brain trips into 'why is this b*s*a*d lying to me' mode and remains their until I find an answer to that question. Thus it was with Catholicism for me. There seemed to be a deliberate obfuscation of fairly simple ideas into complex tests of faith.
For example, do you REALLY believe that the priest on Sunday changes that bread into the real body of Christ in an act of transubstantiation ? I could never accept that.
Can you really understand the concept of the Trinity ? Made no sense at all to me even after much thought.
Do you believe in Purgatory ? I never understood how you could have a waiting room for the afterlife. Does your body ride with you at the last day or do you go to the pearly gates at the instant of death ?
All apparently minor issues but, for me, showstoppers until I can see my way through them. There are a lot of questions like those that bothered me. In the end I realised that what I was looking for was a rational set of rules but not based on an irrational or non-rational set of assumptions.
I don't mind believing things like 'each person has some good somewhere in them' although I accept that it is a belief, not a posit that can easily be tested. I also realise it could be rubbish. But I can happily slide my faith around that sort of thing.
I can't slide it round things like the 3 in 1 God, the ressurection, the Trinity and the virgin birth. They offend my sensibilities and, like an itch, I have to scratch.
From there it was a shot step but a long journey to atheism. Contrary to some notions that does not make me rootless, shiftless, aimless or pointless. I still enthuse about things and feel wonder, awe etc.
When I discovered my first fractal shape it was a spiritual moment, as was my first night under the skies of the Australian outback and many other events in my life.
Trying to explain everything rationally does not mean it is not also wonderful. There is no special 'extra hit' from attributing it to a design than there is from accepting that the design is a fairly simple set of rules and a lot of time. Marvellous. That such simplicity should produce such complexity and order....
Hope that helps..
Chris
I don't agree with your assumption that humans need to have a goal or a reason to be able to live.
A lot of people make finding the goal/reason of life as their goal/reason of life. They fail to see that there might not be a real reason or goal in life and that it isn't needed.
Isn't life itself enough? Can't you take life like it comes, in the here and now, instead of desiring something more - which may not even exist?
Why degrade your life to one simple desire or reason?
I don't live for god.
I don't live for money.
I don't live for love.
I don't live for power.
I don't live for happiness.
I live for life. Nothing more and nothing less.
Remember when you were a non-believer?
| Rico wrote: |
| Remember when you were a non-believer? |
To be honest, I am a cradle-Catholic, so no, I was never a non-believer. I have tested a few parts of Mass as they do seem a little odd. I don't believe everything that is given to me. I do believe something happens at communion (where Father turns the bread and wine into the body and blood) but I'm not sure what. Maybe it's a figment of all of our imaginations, but I choose to believe anyway. It's not easy to explain, but there's just this...feeling.
I do need a purpose for life, besides finding that purpose. I don't want to believe that we have no purpose--how do I measure my success if there's no goal? I need to be able to look back and see where I've been and how that's helped me achieve my goal of getting closer to God. Being Catholic has brought me into some really cool stuff (CYO Rainbow youth conference, for one was crazy fun) and even if it's just for the morals I learn, I'm going to hang onto my faith. The thought that all of it is made up has crossed my mind. After all, the Commandments sound like basic rules to keep the people under control in an unruly civilization. Even so, where I am feels right, and I'm going to keep at it.
I know that most of this post defies logic, but even if it is BS, I am fed by part of it and I guess you would say I'm addicted.
I can't say there's no God because I can't swallow evolution. How'd we get here? That's another thing. My mind needs answers, and my faith has answered them.
JBotI'm Catholic, or I was. I don't know ...
I'v received all the sacraments but now, I just don't go to church and don't think at 100% that something better than us exist ... I just watch the life
| Bondings wrote: |
| I live for life. Nothing more and nothing less. |
I just can't silence my mind--there has to be a reason we're here. Otherwise, life is pointless. And I can't live with that, it's like playing Candy Land, getting your game piece and cards, and learning that where the "end" should be there was a path to the beginning. I don't like the implication that there's nothing to work for, that we are hamsters on wheels.
How can you honestly live for life, and not question why? That's what separates us from monkeys; we question why.
JBot | JBotAlan wrote: |
| Bondings wrote: | | I live for life. Nothing more and nothing less. |
I just can't silence my mind--there has to be a reason we're here. Otherwise, life is pointless. And I can't live with that, it's like playing Candy Land, getting your game piece and cards, and learning that where the "end" should be there was a path to the beginning. I don't like the implication that there's nothing to work for, that we are hamsters on wheels.
How can you honestly live for life, and not question why? That's what separates us from monkeys; we question why.
JBot |
You are trying too hard to analyze this I think. I don't believe in God anymore but I don't think life is pointless. I really agree with Bikerman and Bondings on thier above posts. The purpose of life is to live. It's all the little things. I can't explain it because I don't live life with some deep purpose. Why does there have to be a purpose? But that's just my answer to your question and probably doesn't make sense the way you look at things. Really, I don't think anyone will give you an answer beyond what has already been posted, good luck making sense of it all though. | JBotAlan wrote: |
| I just can't silence my mind--there has to be a reason we're here. Otherwise, life is pointless. |
A fair enough assessment, and certainly true. Life without purpose is pointless.
But perhaps you could answer me a question. Why is it that the purpose in your life must be given to you by someone or something else? Why can you not find your own purpose?
| JBotAlan wrote: |
| How can you honestly live for life, and not question why? That's what separates us from monkeys; we question why. |
I do question why. ^_^ In fact, I just questioned why above.I tried living for money, it served no purpose.
I tried living for god, but I couldn't believe.
I tried living for pleasure, but I got bored.
Just like above guy, I live life for life. I gave up questioning it a long time ago releasing that I was the only person I was going to get an answer from.
I survive by looking for a purpose. I'm waiting for my life to bring me a life goal be it love, a career, etc. In times of strife I take comfort that the decisions I make at the end will be the result of my own moral conflict and won't be because of a god.
I have searched for a religion for the bigger part of my life. I mean I fell in doubt about God so I stopped believing.
Now, some days ago, I started reading about satanism. Seems pretty intresting for a non believer. In satanism you kinda worship yourself, make fun of the Church (if you want to, its not its goal or anything, but from what I see most satanists like that). They dont like self-decetion, stupidity and other such stuff. So I guess Ive found my religion.
If your curious about it then read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanism
And yeah, I know the feeling when you believe in nothing. You cant blaim anybody except yourself for both failures and victories. You just gotta totally depend on yourself. | Quote: |
| I just can't silence my mind--there has to be a reason we're here. |
Even if there is no reason, the alternative is nothingness. pointless life is better than nonexistence.
You won't a purpose, you have to make one or more but be willing to change it.
Write a book, climb a mountain, work for a charity, there are plenty of things in the world to give your life meaning.I am an athiest- I think it important to state this from the outset.
I have been to many and various religious places and considered the whys and wherefores of mnay religions, and generally they all says the same thing and if you ask the head to the religious gathering enough questions, you will be told to 'just believe it' or told to leave. Because you question their faith which they fear. I have met no religious person who when questioned and picked with theological debate who does not fall down somewhere and desperately wish you would go away and stop questioning and disecting their religion.
I find them to be hypocritical and selfish- as much as they may preach selflessness and loving one another and respecting others, for the most part they are filled with institutionalised *isms. Islam- men are best, catholisim straight people are best.
The bible has only been around for approximately 4000 years, while the earth and universe are considerably older.
Religions and governments utilise the same propagandist approach to manipulate the will of the people to their own ways. ( a quick bit of American bashing by an American (not me)- 'I will not return to America until George bush is out of the White House' why? 'because he has created a terrified nation, and America only looks inwards'. And from my trips to the USA the news is terrible and speaks only of what happens in America or whichever country is being invaded at the time.- the UK governement is almost as bad, they just don't control the media (yet). But religion works in a similar way- it tells you what it decides is best for you unless you are willing to did deep enough and question it.
If you have faith fine, I don't believe because I think that we are an accident and chance and our existence is meaningless- to create meaning my raison d'etre is to make a positive difference on other peoples lives (which I have done- and I intend to continue doing that until I die). When I am gone that is it, I am no more my conciousness, being and personality are gone- they are no more than electrical signals in my body. This may sound strange but I am not worried by the fact that there is no after life or continuation of my being, I am happy being an extrovert who is insignificant.
happy deliberation
| simp wrote: |
By the way, did I say there are no gods? Well, I lied. There is actually one, and only one real god, and that is . . .
YOU! |
Well, where do your morals come from? What about that mentality makes it wrong to break laws? You're far from free, unless you disregard the laws, or go to a country where the laws aren't enforced. What do you have to strive for? Or do you think that you are perfect where you are?
You see, the way I see it is that I will be striving for something my whole life. I will never live up to the standards I set for myself. If you are the only god, how do you set standards? I don't see how you can be happy if you do what you want for your entire life; how do you go anywhere? How do you become any better than you were? That's the overall purpose of life, I think--to get better than you started. How do you measure your success, or is this not important to you? I've asked that question already in an earlier post and nobody directly answered it.
JBotI personally don't have a religion. I a just me, and I don't believe in religion and god.
But for most people, God and religion gives them meaning. A reason for living. Personally, I feel it is their own lack of confidence in themselves and the fact that religion has been misconstrued so bad. A lot of people are taught to hate, literally taught to hate something or someone. Whether that object of hatred be a sin or another religion or anything.
These people accept these values and use them for the rules of their own life, though they tend to ignore the ones that work against them.
Why must you have an answer? Why the hell are you acting so childish? Why question that which you have no chance to comprehend? A 4 year old whines when his mom tells him no, and then doesn't give a reason. We grow out of that, well most of us. Get over it. You don't know, and you aren't going to know.
How about you do something productive with your life instead? Why don't you do what feels right? I don't even care what it is, if your goal is to be a serial killer, then have fun. Nothing is just given to you, you have to work for it. Find your own answers within yourself. Don't worship something without first knowing what else is out there.
Don't be closed minded. Open your eyes to the world laid before you and enjoy it. Travel, work, goto school, do something, gain some knowledge. People as a whole have become stupid. They rely on everyone else.
The sadest thing to see is someone who has gone to church all their life, nearly every Sunday. Has read the bible and slaims to be a christian. Then when you ask them why, they just say thats how they were raised.
That is STUPID. Make your own choices in life. Study some other religions. Study science, english, astronomy. Develope your own beliefs. Find out what everyone else thinks.
FOrm your own opinions on the matter, then trust in the fact that YOU, and YOU alone have decided your destiny and what you believe. That is where you find contentment.
Some other posters say they just live. That they appreciate life. They have their own views, they don't go for money, or pleasure in life. THey just LIVE.
And thats precisely what you and everyone else should do. There is no reason to limit yourself. Don't close your mind to the world for it has lots to teach. Find your own purpose in life through living it and experiencing it.
Never except anything said as truth, no matter where it comes from. FInd the thruth through yourself and you'll be fine.
No one should live for religion. Everyone should live for their beliefs. Otherwise, you have no identity, and you become just another body on the Earth.
Sorry I rattled and it may seem disconjointed, sort of been interrupted alot
| HoboBarticus wrote: |
I personally don't have a religion. I a just me, and I don't believe in religion and god.
But for most people, God and religion gives them meaning. A reason for living. Personally, I feel it is their own lack of confidence in themselves and the fact that religion has been misconstrued so bad. A lot of people are taught to hate, literally taught to hate something or someone. Whether that object of hatred be a sin or another religion or anything.
These people accept these values and use them for the rules of their own life, though they tend to ignore the ones that work against them.
Why must you have an answer? Why the hell are you acting so childish? Why question that which you have no chance to comprehend? A 4 year old whines when his mom tells him no, and then doesn't give a reason. We grow out of that, well most of us. Get over it. You don't know, and you aren't going to know.
How about you do something productive with your life instead? Why don't you do what feels right? I don't even care what it is, if your goal is to be a serial killer, then have fun. Nothing is just given to you, you have to work for it. Find your own answers within yourself. Don't worship something without first knowing what else is out there.
Don't be closed minded. Open your eyes to the world laid before you and enjoy it. Travel, work, goto school, do something, gain some knowledge. People as a whole have become stupid. They rely on everyone else.
The sadest thing to see is someone who has gone to church all their life, nearly every Sunday. Has read the bible and slaims to be a christian. Then when you ask them why, they just say thats how they were raised.
That is STUPID. Make your own choices in life. Study some other religions. Study science, english, astronomy. Develope your own beliefs. Find out what everyone else thinks.
FOrm your own opinions on the matter, then trust in the fact that YOU, and YOU alone have decided your destiny and what you believe. That is where you find contentment.
Some other posters say they just live. That they appreciate life. They have their own views, they don't go for money, or pleasure in life. THey just LIVE.
And thats precisely what you and everyone else should do. There is no reason to limit yourself. Don't close your mind to the world for it has lots to teach. Find your own purpose in life through living it and experiencing it.
Never except anything said as truth, no matter where it comes from. FInd the thruth through yourself and you'll be fine.
No one should live for religion. Everyone should live for their beliefs. Otherwise, you have no identity, and you become just another body on the Earth.
Sorry I rattled and it may seem disconjointed, sort of been interrupted alot |
Very well put. I think that about sums it up, though a little extreme toward believers in God, it still answers the question best.Ah thanks. I really have no animosity torwards them. Though I am admittedly biased. Just my point of view. No hate intended though.
| HoboBarticus wrote: |
I personally don't have a religion. I a just me, and I don't believe in religion and god.
But for most people, God and religion gives them meaning. A reason for living. Personally, I feel it is their own lack of confidence in themselves and the fact that religion has been misconstrued so bad. A lot of people are taught to hate, literally taught to hate something or someone. Whether that object of hatred be a sin or another religion or anything.
These people accept these values and use them for the rules of their own life, though they tend to ignore the ones that work against them.
Why must you have an answer? Why the hell are you acting so childish? Why question that which you have no chance to comprehend? A 4 year old whines when his mom tells him no, and then doesn't give a reason. We grow out of that, well most of us. Get over it. You don't know, and you aren't going to know.
How about you do something productive with your life instead? Why don't you do what feels right? I don't even care what it is, if your goal is to be a serial killer, then have fun. Nothing is just given to you, you have to work for it. Find your own answers within yourself. Don't worship something without first knowing what else is out there.
Don't be closed minded. Open your eyes to the world laid before you and enjoy it. Travel, work, goto school, do something, gain some knowledge. People as a whole have become stupid. They rely on everyone else.
The sadest thing to see is someone who has gone to church all their life, nearly every Sunday. Has read the bible and slaims to be a christian. Then when you ask them why, they just say thats how they were raised.
That is STUPID. Make your own choices in life. Study some other religions. Study science, english, astronomy. Develope your own beliefs. Find out what everyone else thinks.
FOrm your own opinions on the matter, then trust in the fact that YOU, and YOU alone have decided your destiny and what you believe. That is where you find contentment.
Some other posters say they just live. That they appreciate life. They have their own views, they don't go for money, or pleasure in life. THey just LIVE.
And thats precisely what you and everyone else should do. There is no reason to limit yourself. Don't close your mind to the world for it has lots to teach. Find your own purpose in life through living it and experiencing it.
Never except anything said as truth, no matter where it comes from. FInd the thruth through yourself and you'll be fine.
No one should live for religion. Everyone should live for their beliefs. Otherwise, you have no identity, and you become just another body on the Earth.
Sorry I rattled and it may seem disconjointed, sort of been interrupted alot |
First off, I do have confidence in myself. I don't need God to give me that. Either you have confidence in yourself and your beliefs or you don't.
I'm not one of those that has been raised in church all my life. I've seen too many things since I've been going to not believe there is a God. My faith is a big part of my life and I enjoy it. I don't go to church to fit in. I go to church because I choose to.
As far as telling this person to grow up, who are you to talk? Do you know anything about this person? This is a teenager that's asking questions and the only way to learn is ask. Don't you remember what it was like to be a teenager?
As far as purpose, I think each person has a different purpose on this Earth and it's up to that person to find it. I can't tell you what your purpose is, one day you'll figure it out. Just trust in God and He'll never let you down. Pray, study, believe. Life is too short to worry about somethings right now. For all I know, you're purpose could be to find the cure for cancer. Or to help someone when they really need it in such a small way that you've never realized you helped.
Don't worry about a purpose yet. It will come to you when the time is right.I don't believe that our lives have any initial meaning. I don't believe in any cosmic design or fate.
That thought is very liberating. It means that life can be anything you want it to be. It means you're free.
Maybe I got this wrong, but It sounds like the general consense around here is that there is nothing to live for except yourselves. Sorry if this is found offensive to anyone. Sounds like life is all about making your own rules and living the way you want to. I'm not trying to tell you how to live life like HoboBarticus. So if someone tries to "stand in the way", or speaks of an alternative path to living which differs than yours, you either tell them off or just don't care about other peoples' opinions. This assement is only fair after what HoboBarticus wrote in thee ol' famous religion bashing speech which was quoted over and over. And I completely respect your opinion. Really. To me that sounds a bit judgemental and one-sided.
| Quote: |
| But for most people, God and religion gives them meaning. A reason for living. Personally, I feel it is their own lack of confidence in themselves and the fact that religion has been misconstrued so bad. A lot of people are taught to hate, literally taught to hate something or someone. Whether that object of hatred be a sin or another religion or anything. |
...or some people just don't understand or even try.
| Quote: |
| These people accept these values and use them for the rules of their own life, though they tend to ignore the ones that work against them. |
What rules your life? Nothing or yourself?
| Quote: |
| Why must you have an answer? Why the hell are you acting so childish? Why question that which you have no chance to comprehend? A 4 year old whines when his mom tells him no, and then doesn't give a reason. We grow out of that, well most of us. Get over it. You don't know, and you aren't going to know. |
We question so that we can understand. When one understands, it's like steping on the head of ignorance.
| Quote: |
| Don't be closed minded. Open your eyes to the world laid before you and enjoy it. Travel, work, goto school, do something, gain some knowledge. People as a whole have become stupid. They rely on everyone else. |
Get out there and live a little... And kill your Television...
| Quote: |
| The sadest thing to see is someone who has gone to church all their life, nearly every Sunday. Has read the bible and slaims to be a christian. Then when you ask them why, they just say thats how they were raised. |
Okay, even I'll agree to this one, but even I know what I believe.
| Quote: |
| That is STUPID. Make your own choices in life. Study some other religions. Study science, english, astronomy. Develope your own beliefs. Find out what everyone else thinks. |
That's why I went to college just like millions of other people in the world, to learn more so I can make educated decisions and know why I believe what I believe, but I'm not going to throw you that bone just so you can throw it back at me. I'm not that "STUPID."
...soooo, what does that mean anyway? But that's another discussion entirely.
| Quote: |
| And thats precisely what you and everyone else should do. There is no reason to limit yourself. Don't close your mind to the world for it has lots to teach. Find your own purpose in life through living it and experiencing it. |
Part one: See above statement. Part two: Just because a person believes in God does not make them close minded. At least they know what they believe. This seems to be the whole point of HoboBarticus' rant. As a believer in God who knows what I believe, does not make me closed to trying new things. I'll admit there are some things that I won't do, but that's a choice I have made. From what I believe, I know that I have a purpose. KUDOS.
| Quote: |
Never except anything said as truth, no matter where it comes from. FInd the thruth through yourself and you'll be fine. |
"Use the Force, Luke." "The Force flows through you." That's right, and bears go poop too.
| Quote: |
| No one should live for religion. Everyone should live for their beliefs. Otherwise, you have no identity, and you become just another body on the Earth. |
Yeah man, I don't like religion either. Especially that way you make it sound. That's why this whole Christainity thing is not a religion. It's a life-style. You can't tell a person who truly believe in God that their "rules" are stupid, pointless and a waste of time and energy and has no direction. A true believer in God will never have to find their purpose because they already know they have one. Besides, what ever it is you live for, live it to the fullest. And your identity is who you are, not who you are not. I know who I am. I know what I stand for. And know that what I am saying is not going to be the most popular thing said, but at least I know. (And I know how to type.) And I am sure that there are other people who know where they stand.
It is only fair that HoboBarticus rant against "religion", so I can rant for my beliefs.
Anyway, from my initial assement, this whole thing about living for yourselves, doing your own thing, making your own rules, "deciding for your yourselves," don't tell me what to do attitude sounds kind of selfish to me from what I have read from you guys on this topic. I know, I know, I'm being judgemental you might say, but really I do respect the fact that your entitled to your opinions, and I'm entitled to mine. Right? Right.
Love God, Love people, drink coffee.
___________________________
http://www.socialoutcast.co.nr | pulldownthesky wrote: |
I don't believe that our lives have any initial meaning. I don't believe in any cosmic design or fate.
That thought is very liberating. It means that life can be anything you want it to be. It means you're free. |
your free? really? so if you wanted to quit your job today and become a rockstar can you do that? if you wanted to just stay home, not study not work and just play video games all day, can you do that? If you wanted to just walk out the door go to the nearest beach and stay there for the rest of your life, could you do that? could you survive without money? what kind of life would you live if you didnt have insurance?
@Bikerman - Im really curious how you can be athiest but still have spiritual experiences. You dont believe in God, you believe in science. Is there any scientific evidence to support the existence of a spirit or soul? I always thought it was a purely philosophical concept.
Is it possible to claim yourself athiest and at the same time believe in afterlife?NemoySpruce: Thats not what pulldownthesky said. He said he can make life mean anything where in God you have this one unchangeable meaning that ties you down.
Atheist dose not mean non spiritual, it mean a non belief in any God or gods. Spirituality is not limited to a belief if a god.
| The Conspirator wrote: |
NemoySpruce: Thats not what pulldownthesky said. He said he can make life mean anything where in God you have this one unchangeable meaning that ties you down.
Atheist dose not mean non spiritual, it mean a non belief in any God or gods. Spirituality is not limited to a belief if a god. |
I know what he meant 
he is saying that we can be free to choose to be anything we want to be, because he thinks religion is a set of rules that tells you what you can and cannot do. Religion is like a cage to him. My point is, freedom is an abstract concept. It exists only in the mind. We can never be totaly free to do anything, the best we can do is to come as close to it as we can. How do we do that? by making rules for ourselves and following them. Take a second look at religion (Christian, Jewish, Islam, Buddhist... etc) you will see that its actually a set of rules, designed to allow people to live together in peace (although some people use it to take advantage of other people), thus increasing their freedom.Rules such as no steeling, raping murdering are basic rules that both theist ans atheist agree with, religion on the other hand give you meaningless rules that restrict you for no reason other than some God said so. Those rules restrict your life, deny you freedom and become justifications for murder (such as killing a person cause there gay or of another religion.)
| The Conspirator wrote: |
| Rules such as no steeling, raping murdering are basic rules that both theist ans atheist agree with, religion on the other hand give you meaningless rules that restrict you for no reason other than some God said so. Those rules restrict your life, deny you freedom and become justifications for murder (such as killing a person cause there gay or of another religion.) |
You are correct. Religion has been abused in this way. Religion restrics your life the same way as your basic rules. And these basic rules by the way can be found in the Ten Commandments, written at least 4000 years ago. Before there was religion, there were athiests. When religion came around, civilization prospered. heres a test. name an advanced atheist civilization. Dont get me wrong, I think a lot of great leaders are probably atheists, and I have reservations about the politics of catholic faith, but all great civilizations are based on one type of religion or other. If we toss it out, civilization will collapse.What? Where did you hear that there was no religion 4000 years ago? Religion predates civilisation, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 thousand years ago people where building temples to there gods, even sacrificing to them.
No, the religious rules do not restrict you life the way basic rules do, the basic rules are , do not rape, steel and murder, those are not very restricting, however saying do not be homosexual, say certain things, have sex in certain position or do not have sex, do not question, do not live your life certain ways and do do meaningless rituals is very restricting.
| The Conspirator wrote: |
What? Where did you hear that there was no religion 4000 years ago? Religion predates civilisation, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 thousand years ago people where building temples to there gods, even sacrificing to them.
No, the religious rules do not restrict you life the way basic rules do, the basic rules are , do not rape, steel and murder, those are not very restricting, however saying do not be homosexual, say certain things, have sex in certain position or do not have sex, do not question, do not live your life certain ways and do do meaningless rituals is very restricting. |
But the basic rules you cited are religious rules. homosexuality, abstinance, etc.. are also religious rules, but they are enforced by society. The 'basic rules' are also religious rules, but are so essential to society that laws have been made to enforce them. They also restrict you, but you dont mind because you are not a killer/rapist/theif, so they dont apply to you. However the other stuff, like sex is something you want to do but cant, so you reject religion.
You see, if you dont believe in a God, there is no reason to treat your fellow men with respect. You can kill, steal, rape all you want if you can keep from getting caught then it does not matter. If we will all end up as nothing, why waste your time trying to make the world a better place? when you die your gone, what difference does it make if your a respected scientist, doctor or whatever, why work so hard to become this? why not just take what you want, do what you want till you cant anymore, then die? | NemoySpruce wrote: |
| You see, if you dont believe in a God, there is no reason to treat your fellow men with respect. You can kill, steal, rape all you want if you can keep from getting caught then it does not matter. If we will all end up as nothing, why waste your time trying to make the world a better place? when you die your gone, what difference does it make if your a respected scientist, doctor or whatever, why work so hard to become this? why not just take what you want, do what you want till you cant anymore, then die? |
That is the kind of stupid shit that pisses atheist off.
Atheists don;t go around steeling, killing, raping, coning and so on, atheists have morels and atheists are more morel that theists. Atheists not only treat there fellow people with respect, they are more respectful that theists. Atheists give to charity's, atheists help others out, atheists do good onto others. Morality transcends religion. every one has a sense of morality whether they fallow it or not. Why do good if we just die? Why not ask a Christan why they give the charity when it makes no God damn difference when they are judged, they'll be judged by how much sin they have and if they believe and except Jesus as there savorer there sins will be washed away before they die. So theres no reword in it. So why? Cause it heps people out and thats reason in and of itself and thats why almost every one who give to charity regardless if they are theist or atheist.
Atheists don't live meaningless selfish lives not because we will be reworded or punished but because its wrong! And if you need god to keep you in line, its not going to work, you'll still do bad shit. | NemoySpruce wrote: |
You see, if you dont believe in a God, there is no reason to treat your fellow men with respect.
|
Reasons? I am sure there are plenty of them, and I think they will have more respect to other as well. At least Atheist don't have "religion bias"...
I knew some cases like Christian/Muslim "brothers" snatch people's body from their family over the funeral...or destroy things related to other religion in their "new brother" home...are these "respects" ??
| Quote: |
You can kill, steal, rape all you want if you can keep from getting caught then it does not matter.
|
You will kill, steal, rape even if you do believe in GODs, and that the GODs forbid you from doing so, if you want to..what makes the different?
| Quote: |
If we will all end up as nothing, why waste your time trying to make the world a better place? when you die your gone, what difference does it make if your a respected scientist, doctor or whatever, why work so hard to become this? why not just take what you want, do what you want till you cant anymore, then die?
|
I live for a better "now", and don't live for after death... | The Conspirator wrote: |
Morality transcends religion. every one has a sense of morality whether they fallow it or not. Why do good if we just die? Why not ask a Christan why they give the charity when it makes no God damn difference when they are judged, they'll be judged by how much sin they have and if they believe and except Jesus as there savorer there sins will be washed away before they die. So theres no reword in it. So why? Cause it heps people out and thats reason in and of itself and thats why almost every one who give to charity regardless if they are theist or atheist.
Atheists don't live meaningless selfish lives not because we will be reworded or punished but because its wrong! And if you need god to keep you in line, its not going to work, you'll still do bad ****. |
Look. Im not saying Atheists are bad, Religious people are good. Thats BS. What Im saying is religion brought us order, religion allowed our society to advance and become what it is now. Now if religion is telling us not to do certain things, all Im saying is maybe we should think about why religion is telling us these things before we toss it out the window. Religions are not absolute, they just dont change as fast as people do. Religions die out when people refuse to believe, religion changes when people need for it to change.
Its interesting though. How do you know something is 'wrong' if you have no religion to base your decisions on? For christians giving to charity is not about getting to heaven. We give to charity because Jesus Christ taught us to 'love your brother as you love yourself'. You dont do that to get into heaven. You do that to help make the world a better place. You do nice things and expect nothing in return. If everybody did that, we would be living in paradise. its very easy to do if you believe in a God. You know that the good you do is not wasted but somehow recognized and will somehow benefit us all in the end. If you dont believe in God, its very easy to take advantage of all the people trying to do good things. Again Im not saying atheists are bad people, but most atheists were brought up Catholic/Muslim/Jewish or Buddhist, core values have already been ingrained and so you already have morals. If religion was entirely absent from your life, you would be lost. Think about it, why would you sacrifice your time for other people if you know that when you die, you become nothing.Religion didn't give us rules! Hunter gathers a million years ago had rules. Religion gave us meaningless rules, You won;t to see what kind of society religion gives us look at the middle east, the west for the past 300 years has been becoming more and more secular and as it became more secular, people lives got better and more free. Religion made the middle ages and Renascence, when there was crusades and Inquisitions. It is secularism that made the now.
Just think of how many homosexuals killed them selves out of shame for there own homosexuality, atheists don't see a problem with homosexuality, its the theists that do.
No, Christens don;t give to charity cause of what Jesus said, they do it cause it helps out these in need of help, thats why. Unless it for a tax cut or to make yourself feel good, thats why. Thats why charity is apart of every religion in existence. Its a part of Hinduism, Buddhism, its one of the pillars of Islam and its part of Christianity and Judaism and Atheists give just as much.
How do we know what is wrong? We use our brains.
| The Conspirator wrote: |
| How do we know what is wrong? We use our brains. |
okay. lets start with something easy. Why is stealing wrong?Cause when you steel your taking something that dose not belong to you with out the owners permission. And it can also do harm (mentally mostly but also physically if its something like medicine), things can have allot of sentimental value.
| JBotAlan wrote: |
| Maybe it's just the principles I have burned into my mind, but I really don't believe I'm here for fun. |
I dont knwo if anyone else quoted this, coz i couldnt be botherd to read to pages to see.
but if you dont live for fun what a boring sad life you have. If you dont live to have fun and be happy, then what the hell else do you have?But that gets to the paradox of hedonism, if you only live for fun (or happiness, pleaser, and so on) you won't attain it.
Happiness, pleaser and fun come from things, reading writings, games, art, wood working, gardening and so on. If you only live for happiness, say you try to attain through food, well the pleaser and satisfaction you get form eating is fleeting, it doesn't last so you have to eat more and more to attain that pleaser. In the end you end up 500 pounds. If you live only for fun you end up living a life of excess and that comers with consequence.
| The Conspirator wrote: |
| Cause when you steel your taking something that dose not belong to you with out the owners permission. And it can also do harm (mentally mostly but also physically if its something like medicine), things can have allot of sentimental value. |
so, stealing is only wrong if it does 'harm' to someone? if nobody gets hurt, then its okay? your morality is defined by the term 'harm' for you, if you dont cause anyone distress/problems/pain etc.. then the act is ok. Did I understand you correctly?Do you know what "and" means?
Heres a question, whats it matter? Your alive and the alternative is nothingness so whats it matter? So whats it matter if life means anything?
I mean, realistically-why does life have to be based on anything? Lay out a set of goals you'd like to achieve(getting a Ph. D. in a subject that interests you, having sex with more people than your friends) and the situations you want to avoid(say-dying of a drug overdose, going to prison, etc.). Do everything you can to achieve your goals, but try not to do the things that might lead to the situations you want to avoid.
Pleasure seems to be the best thing to let drive your life, as if you constantly pursue your own interests you should never be unhappy-theoretically. It's absolutely impossible to live a life free of pain and suffering-but most religious people go out of their way to put themselves into pain, or at the least live a life of shame.
I'd like to think that my life is based around accomplishing my own success(not exactly rich, but have enough money to pay all the bills and buy all of the stupid things I want to relieve my boredom) without hindering society as a whole. Of course now I have a daughter to live for-and that is far more motivating than the satisfaction of all of my own selfish whims and desires.
I can't speak for other Christians, only myself, and I'm here to say that I don't do good works with the thought in mind of what I'll get out of it. I do it because I want to or I see a need that I can fill. When I hold a door open for someone, I don't expect a thank you, it's nice and all, but not nessacary, and you can believe that I'm teaching my boys to be courteous to others because it's the right thing to do, religion aside. Doing good is great, but doing good with the expectation of getting something out of it makes it worthless in my opinion.
As far as morals, I feel everyone has a moral compass. Some just decide not to follow it. It doesn't matter weither a person claims religion in their lives or not. Some people that claim to be Christians can do bad, just like some that either claim to not believe in any God or a different belief intirely. Religion, or the lack thereof, has not bearing on weither a person can be good or bad, as far as having morals go. But I do believe that without a religious background of some kind, society will only go downhill. I realize this comment will cause problems, but that's okay, it's only my belief. But I remember what things were like when I was younger. Parents taught their kids to mind better than they do today. I'm not trying to cause any hard feelings here, but I've seen so many changes in just my short time here on this planet that sometimes it surprises me. If I had treated my parents the way I've seen some children treat their parent, I wonder if I would have made it to adulthood. 
I'm 41 years old and I still don't treat my parents with disrespect because I know for a fact that even though I'm taller than my mom, she'll still whoop me for that.
Look at the way school shootings have increased lately. Child abuse, of any kind, is running rampant. Crime is up. The list goes on and on. Things have changed since I was a kid and not all these changes have been for the good. | bearglove wrote: |
I mean, realistically-why does life have to be based on anything? Lay out a set of goals you'd like to achieve(getting a Ph. D. in a subject that interests you, having sex with more people than your friends) and the situations you want to avoid(say-dying of a drug overdose, going to prison, etc.). Do everything you can to achieve your goals, but try not to do the things that might lead to the situations you want to avoid.
Pleasure seems to be the best thing to let drive your life, as if you constantly pursue your own interests you should never be unhappy-theoretically. It's absolutely impossible to live a life free of pain and suffering-but most religious people go out of their way to put themselves into pain, or at the least live a life of shame.
I'd like to think that my life is based around accomplishing my own success(not exactly rich, but have enough money to pay all the bills and buy all of the stupid things I want to relieve my boredom) without hindering society as a whole. Of course now I have a daughter to live for-and that is far more motivating than the satisfaction of all of my own selfish whims and desires. |
because thats exactly the kind of thinking that causes an entire civilization to collapse. If everybody thinks like that (just concentrate on your own goals, wants and needs) the tendency is for the rich to become richer and the poor to become poorer. It may take a while, you might live a happy successfull life, but history shows that eventually the gap will become too great and the civilization will implode. Now, if you dont believe in a God/afterlife, you wont feel accountable for this. Who cares about the future, im not going to be there. Well, here's one reason, imagine what your society would be like if your ancestors thought like that. So the next time you see a religious person putting himself into pain, least you can do is thank him. he is paying his dues to help preserve your society and way of life for your daughter. And you may be surprised, but helping other people feels surprisingly good. It could help alleviate some of that boredom you have.NemoySpruce quit trying to marginalise and demonize atheists! Atheists are not selfish dicks who don't care about the future and only care about them selves! You don't need some mythical father figure and some delusion of an afterlife to care in fact those who don't believe care more. Why? Cause they know this life is the only life and once its done theres no paradise waiting and they know theres no God to intervene when things go to shit. So they care more about what happens to people and more about the future. Atheists are more morel and more caring than theists.
I have another stance on all this. Religion is man-made. If you take the time to read the bible, and I mean read it and not skim it and not take someone else's word for it (even a preacher/priest/minister), you'll find out that God/Jesus does not want or need rituals of any kind. Every God-based religion that I know of goes through rituals of some kind.
Why are we here? Right or wrong, everyone has to have some purpose in life, even if it's seemingly inconsequential. Perhaps your purpose is to raise your children. Perhaps it's to go outside and feed the chickens. The problem lies in feeling your sense of purpose. Leave God out of the equation (and for the record, I don't) and you'll still find your purpose sooner or later.
Perhaps this search for a purpose is just people trying to fill something in there life that they lack and I don't mean lacking a purpose, theres something in there life that they don't like, there uncomfortable with or missing and instead of figuring out whats wrong they try to find a purpose in religion or something.
Just a thought.
Nobody lives without God, some just choose not to believe or acknowledge His existence.
hmm all of this is very confusing:S
| Soulfire wrote: |
| Nobody lives without God, some just choose not to believe or acknowledge His existence. |
I live with out God.we all live without God. Just some feel like they need faith in a God for a higher purpose.
| The Conspirator wrote: |
Perhaps this search for a purpose is just people trying to fill something in there life that they lack and I don't mean lacking a purpose, theres something in there life that they don't like, there uncomfortable with or missing and instead of figuring out whats wrong they try to find a purpose in religion or something.
Just a thought. |
I think in some cases you are correct, but not in all. If that is why they joined a church or congregation, then they are doing it for the wrong reasons. (Just my opinion.)
| Lennon wrote: |
| we all live without God. Just some feel like they need faith in a God for a higher purpose. |
Thank you for saying "some", but I don't think I live without God. I don't believe just so I can have some perpose in my life, I believe because of things I have seen. I have purpose in my life even if I didn't have God in it. God doesn't have to give me a purpose, but He has enriched it and made it better.
Every person has a choice to believe or not believe for whatever reason. I can tell you my opinion, but I would never try to force my views or opinions on you, not because I don't believe in God, but because I consider it to be rude and uncalled for. Each individual person has to come to their own conclusions about God. I don't consider God to be a myth, but of course you probably already know that. It's not as if I hide my feelings on this matter. I may never understand you opinion on this subject, but that's okay. I don't have too. All I have to do is understand mine. I have to understand that I can't change anyones belief. I can tell them how I see things and why I believe as I do, then leave it alone.
Anyway, I hope you all have a great day. | Quote: |
| How can one live without God? |
How can one SCUBA dive without an umbrella?I don't believe in any god(s)...
People believe what they want to believe, in my opinion. I mean, I'm happy living without believing in a "God"...
I'll try to explain what I think (It's hard to explain):
One of the reasons I think people believe in creationism is that it's impossible for them to imagine nothing.
I mean, if you think of there being "nothing", then you're probably thinking of just... nothing, but in thinking of nothing, you're thinking of something.
If you think of the universe as nothing, then you're probably imagining something black. Yet if there's NOTHING, how can it be black?
And then how would your "god(s)" come to be, out of "nothing", before forming the universe or whatever you believe.
Also, about the "rules".. Look at the history of different indigeonous peoples. Some had gods, others didn't, yet most of them would have rules and punishments.
I believe gods are just excuses for lives.. I guess if your believe in something you're happy, yet what you believe in doesn't have to be a "god".
| Hogwarts wrote: |
I don't believe in any god(s)...
People believe what they want to believe, in my opinion. I mean, I'm happy living without believing in a "God"...
I'll try to explain what I think (It's hard to explain):
One of the reasons I think people believe in creationism is that it's impossible for them to imagine nothing.
I mean, if you think of there being "nothing", then you're probably thinking of just... nothing, but in thinking of nothing, you're thinking of something.
If you think of the universe as nothing, then you're probably imagining something black. Yet if there's NOTHING, how can it be black?
And then how would your "god(s)" come to be, out of "nothing", before forming the universe or whatever you believe.
Also, about the "rules".. Look at the history of different indigeonous peoples. Some had gods, others didn't, yet most of them would have rules and punishments.
I believe gods are just excuses for lives.. I guess if your believe in something you're happy, yet what you believe in doesn't have to be a "god". |
Thats because your thinking of the begining. We dont know how or what happened that time, but we do know something happened that brought about the universe as we know it now. Lets fastforward to the end. End of the universe. End of evolution. lets say humans evolved and met other alien races, and we populated the entire galaxy, then aliens from other galaxies interacted with our galaxy and so on..to the end. While all this interaction is going on science is advancing and information is being recorded, knowledge is being perfected. Eventually wouldnt it be possible that a being will posses all knowledge in the universe? And would this being be able to travel through time as well as through space? and then go back to the begining of time to change events into whatever it wanted it to be? you say some people find it impossible to imagine nothing..can you imagine the infinite?Hmm, regardless on which side we are on, believers of god or non-believers, there are a few things neither party can answer with certainty. Such as "who created us , how did something orginate from nothing.. so many questions yet they can neither be proven by science nor religion.
As for religion, its dissapointing to see that in the many decades its become more of a cult group. There are do's and don't , restrictions, makes you wonder who your living your life for ?
Personally, i don't believe in god, atleast not in the conventional sense,i believe that there are higher-powers that exists somewhere out there, but have no direct link to us. Arrrr, anyway i agree with bondings, we don't need a reason to live life. Life is enough reason for anyone of us to live it out. Goals are temporary reasons for living life.
| tyrant wrote: |
| Hmm, regardless on which side we are on, believers of god or non-believers, there are a few things neither party can answer with certainty. Such as "who created us , how did something orginate from nothing.. so many questions yet they can neither be proven by science nor religion. |
The degree of certainty in which we can answer with depends on the degree of how strongly we believe in what we believe to be true.
For example, a devoted Christain who lives their life for God, and believes so strongly that God is real, and the principles taught by the Bible are just and right about matters of life will be willing to die for what they believe. Now that's devotion to their belief. This is certainly devotion to ones cause and belief. It is also true that people do change there minds and way of life either one way or another based upon popular thought, new evidences, convincing arguements and scientific break-throughs.
I believe a question was proposed by a fellow frihoster to the effect of how can someone be 100% certain of what is true? I think that Morphious puts is best in the movie The Matrix when he keeps comming back to the idea of how deep are you willing to go to find the truth. And who nose, it could be right under us.
I came across this cool artical on The Matrix and Tao, but if you know much about the Christian faith, you'll be able to see the parallels.
Here's the link,
http://gabriel.zaadz.com/blog/2005/12/there_is_no_spoon_the_matrix_and_tao
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