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What is faith?

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RT Cunningham
When you were a young child, did you ever fall down or hurt yourself and you just "knew" one of your parents would pick you up or fix you up, without a doubt in your mind? Have you ever watched babies ad toddlers blindly do things because they know that an adult will make sure they don't get hurt?

I did and I have. That is the meaning of faith: Believing without really knowing. If you have faith in God, you expect Him to do what is right for you, regardless of what you want or need.

God knows what you want and what you need before you even ask for it. Praying is the formality that confirms that you want Him to act. Do we need to pray? No, but it doesn't hurt. In fact, prayer is the only way to communicate directly with God. Any other communication is still received, but indirectly, through the use of angels and other means. Prayer is the mental activity that makes the connection.

But you have to have faith to understand that.
Bikerman
RT Cunningham wrote:
When you were a young child, did you ever fall down or hurt yourself and you just "knew" one of your parents would pick you up or fix you up, without a doubt in your mind? Have you ever watched babies ad toddlers blindly do things because they know that an adult will make sure they don't get hurt?

I did and I have. That is the meaning of faith: Believing without really knowing. If you have faith in God, you expect Him to do what is right for you, regardless of what you want or need.

God knows what you want and what you need before you even ask for it. Praying is the formality that confirms that you want Him to act. Do we need to pray? No, but it doesn't hurt. In fact, prayer is the only way to communicate directly with God. Any other communication is still received, but indirectly, through the use of angels and other means. Prayer is the mental activity that makes the connection.

But you have to have faith to understand that.


This sounds to me like a recipe for disaster. Children know their parent will come because of the good reason that they have done so every other time they were needed. They are also not able to make adult choices and determin their own path in life, and so need a security and comfort that a parent provides. Adults are supposed to sort it out themselves - a certainty that God will sort it out seems to be a way of avoiding personal responsibility. Also, let's be honest, in most cases God is not going to step in when you hurt yourself. Experience tells us that lots of bad things happen to good people and if the ineffable deity can be relied upon for anything it is to be ineffable. (The etymology of that word has always bugged me...ineffable is OK - unknowable, sacred, defying description and so on. So you would think that to eff someone was to know, describe, understand them. It's not, however. It is much more specific and intimate :-)

You still believe in the angelic system and the celestial hosts ? The full 3 sphere monty with the Cherubim, Seraphim, Thrones etc ? Do you know the heirarchy of Angels and all that stuff ? Wow. Amazing. I had to learn some of it at school - the Monks were most insistent on the catechism and the layers of hell etc. Most of it has slipped away over the years, but I can still remember the 9 levels of Angel I think :
Seraphim, Cherubim, Thrones, Dominions, Virtues, Powers, Principalities, Archangels, Angels.

Amazing what sticks after 30 odd years :-)

Regards
Chris
nopaniers
The best definition, I think, comes from the Bible:

Hebrews 11 wrote:
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.


In this world we will never have complete information, and to believe anything more than "I exist" you need to have some degree of faith. I believe that you exist, even though I cannot see you. If I had to measure it, I would say it is: "1 - probability that my belief is correct". Everything we believe can be wrong, but faith is accepting what we believe to be true, even when faced with the knowledge that we might be wrong.
loyal
Bikerman, you were raised in catholic school but now you are an athiest?
nopaniers
Quote:
Adults are supposed to sort it out themselves - a certainty that God will sort it out seems to be a way of avoiding personal responsibility.


Faith in God doesn't mean you have no personal responsibility. The opposite in fact. We are responsible for our actions, and more than that, we will face judgement for our decisions.

If you take the opposite view - that there is no God and every decision we make is either the result of chance, or completely predictable physics and chemistry - then there is no personal responsibility.

There are, however, things which we cannot affect. I liked the original analogy of a child. I once saw a poster which said "Everything that I have seen teaches me to trust God for the things which I have not seen." Sometimes there will be pain and suffering. Sometimes things will be bad, and not go as we expect or as we plan. At times like that it is good to know that God is in control, and all things work for his glory.
Bikerman
nopaniers wrote:
Quote:
Adults are supposed to sort it out themselves - a certainty that God will sort it out seems to be a way of avoiding personal responsibility.


Faith in God doesn't mean you have no personal responsibility. The opposite in fact. We are responsible for our actions, and more than that, we will face judgement for our decisions.

If you take the opposite view - that there is no God and every decision we make is either the result of chance, or completely predictable physics and chemistry - then there is no personal responsibility.

That is not really the opposite. It is possible to believe that there is no God without having to ditch the concept of freewill. It is only if that is also ditched and one is a determinist that this comment applies. As for myself, I'm on the freewill side of that debate. That means I have responsibility for what I do. It also means that I do not believe there will be a reconning, to be sure, but I always found the idea of morality through fear slightly repugnant and the sometimes expressed view that religion is responsible for man developing social and ethical rules is deeply patronising (I know that you are not saying that but it often pops up around this time Smile

Quote:

There are, however, things which we cannot affect. I liked the original analogy of a child. I once saw a poster which said "Everything that I have seen teaches me to trust God for the things which I have not seen." Sometimes there will be pain and suffering. Sometimes things will be bad, and not go as we expect or as we plan. At times like that it is good to know that God is in control, and all things work for his glory.

Hmm, that is the point at which I smile and nod politely but cannot really comment further since I have no concept of a God and without that it's impossible to ascribe motivations and behaviours....Sad

Regards
Chris
nopaniers
loyal - How do you see faith from a Muslim perspective?

Bikerman wrote:
I always found the idea of morality through fear slightly repugnant and the sometimes expressed view that religion is responsible for man developing social and ethical rules is deeply patronising.


Bikerman - True. Surprisingly, I agree, although perhaps I wouldn't have put it that way. What motivates me (when I am motivated) is not fear but love and greatfulness to God.

I can feel the nodding and smiling already...
loyal
nopaniers wrote:
loyal - How do you see faith from a Muslim perspective?


Wow! Someone wants my opinion. I feel so special. lol joking.

peace be upon you.

Faith is someone's one beliefs. Faith is made up of two parts:

-Fact
-Trust

The first one is fact. It might be as clear as oxygen, that something in your religion is true. It might be anything. But if it is fact, it is true. It is not false.

The second is trust. Many Christians are what i would describe as 'blind'. Technically they put their faith in what a) can't be proven OR b) what has been disproved OR c) has not yet been proven. In other words they accept their beliefs with no proof.

i've got to go...i'll say more later.
RT Cunningham
Bikerman, I'm sorry you had to go through a Catholic school and the whole catechism thing. I had friends that subjected to that torture Smile

I, myself, did not go through any religion-based school and I never attended "Sunday school" when I was young. All of my information comes from the written word. No, I do not believe in hell as an everlasting torture place. I believe that when the spirit lives on, the hell is being separated from everyone else.

I can't give the definition of faith as well as others that have posted. But babies trust their parents without reservation and that's what we're supposed to do if we believe in God. If there is no belief, there is no faith.

Some may ask me why I believe the bible to be accurate (as accurate as any translation can be), is that each book, after the Torh, were written by different people in different periods. The book of Psalms, for instance, written many years before the birth of Christ, predicted his death. The completion of prophecy. In fact, the very words that Jesus is reported to having said just before dying come from the book of Psalms. Please don't make me look it up... I remember it, but it would take days to find it again.

Again, I will repeat what I said in another post. I'm not a religious person. I don't go through the motions that a religious person does. Most people who appear to be religious are hypocrites and are the least trustworthy people in the world. I refuse to be lumped in that category.
Bikerman
nopaniers wrote:
loyal - How do you see faith from a Muslim perspective?

Bikerman wrote:
I always found the idea of morality through fear slightly repugnant and the sometimes expressed view that religion is responsible for man developing social and ethical rules is deeply patronising.


Bikerman - True. Surprisingly, I agree, although perhaps I wouldn't have put it that way. What motivates me (when I am motivated) is not fear but love and greatfulness to God.

I can feel the nodding and smiling already...

Not at all Smile I have never had a problem with the religious, although I obviously have a different view. My major problems have always surrounded the institutions of religion and the use and justification for beliefs.
I would be hypocritical to say that my own science 'beliefs' are the only possible explanation for the universe and I never do claim that. I happen to think that science has marginalised religions to the point where their function is increasingly questionable, but this is largely because it has debunked many of the interpretations put on scriptures by those same institutions of faith and then treated as dogmatic truths.

Regards
Chris
Rico
What kind of bike do you have Bikerman?
livilou
I don't worship because I fear, I worship because I love God and I know He loves me.

I realize my actions will have consequences. I'm responsible for what I do and will have to answer for them one day. Life is about choices. I choose to believe that God exist. I choose to believe that God loves me and even if I'm going through a hard time right now, it won't always be that way.

How do you appreciate the good times if you don't have any bad times to compare it too?
Bikerman
Rico wrote:
What kind of bike do you have Bikerman?

Yam 1000 Thunderace is everyday ride
and a trail Honda CR500 (in bits)

Chris.
just-in
What is faith?

Good question.

I think my girlfriend will marry me
..... This is my hope

Her dad thinks that she will marry whoever he says
...... This is his belief

But what she thinks will decide the fate of our FAITH. Wink
nopaniers
loyal wrote:
The second is trust. Many Christians are what i would describe as 'blind'. Technically they put their faith in what a) can't be proven OR b) what has been disproved OR c) has not yet been proven.


I'd regard my faith as (c) Wink Yes, you are right. Faith is a central part of Christian belief. We admit that we don't know everything, but despite that we choose to believe in God. Don't muslims have this type of faith? Do you regard your beliefs as proven?
socialoutcast
"Faith is the confident assurance that what we hope for is going to happen. It is the evidence of the things we cannot see." --Hebrews 11:1

I know I've taken this from the Bible. But that doesn't make it exclusive to Christianity. Even the scientist has to have faith to believe the resultes of their findings. Even the Athiests has to have faith to believe that god does not exist. The doctor would need faith that his training in med school has taught him enough about the human body to save a life.

We all need faith to some extent. This principle is not just just for religious people. But for all people use faith to some extent not just with matters of god.
____________________
www.socialoutcast.co.nr
Bikerman
socialoutcast wrote:
"Faith is the confident assurance that what we hope for is going to happen. It is the evidence of the things we cannot see." --Hebrews 11:1

I know I've taken this from the Bible. But that doesn't make it exclusive to Christianity. Even the scientist has to have faith to believe the resultes of their findings. Even the Athiests has to have faith to believe that god does not exist. The doctor would need faith that his training in med school has taught him enough about the human body to save a life.

No...completely different. A scientist with faith in their experiments would be a liability and would soon be found out. The exact opposite is required. A scientist must be sceptical about his/her own work and try as hard as possible to retute it before it even gets to the next step. No belief is required, simply the accurate and impartial recording of data.
The same goes for Atheists. I do not have to believe that God does NOT exist in the same way that I do not have to believe there is a pink UFO hovering over the house whilist I type, or a large white elephant dancing on the keyboard. I need not concern myself with such thoughts because faith/belief is not necessary. You are conflating several concepts here. The scientist needs proper experimental and scientific method and most certainly not faith. The atheist requires nothing but, in so far as faith enters the picture it is a lack of faith that distinguishes that person rather than any active excercise of faith. To reverse it is equivalent of sayaing that You must have faith that Buddha and Mohammed were wrong. You don't. You just choose to actively believe in your god. I don't actively believe in any divinity which is not the same as saying I have to actively believe in the non existence of the same. The distinction may seem slight but it is important. Finally to the Doctor. This is not 'faith'; it would be more accurately called 'self confidence', although I grant that this is a grey area and you could say 'faith in himself' without being wrong...The important, nay critical, point here is that faith is reserved for those things which cannot be conclusively demonstrated to exist.
You do not, for example, BELIEVE in policemen and traffic wardens-it even sounds silly if you say it. You KNOW they exist so no belief is required. Likewise you do not have faith in anything you know to be the case so thankfully we do not have to go around believing that we are who we think and that we are walking down a street and ........etc etc
You need faith when there is some doubt and the matter cannot be resolved.

The etymology of the word is not certain but it probably comes from either Fidere (Latin for 'trust) or Fides (the bastard Latin/French word for the same thing). Once again, you do not have to trust things unles there is an element of doubt possible. You personally may have no doubts but if that were generally the case then the word would be redundant. You can easily prove it to youself. Try using the word for things you know are true and everyone accepts to be so...it sounds wrong and somehow out of place. That is because it is.

Finally, the definition in Chambers is as good as I have seen :
Belief; the assent of the mind to the truth of what is declared by another, resting solely and implicitly on his authority and veracity; reliance on testimony.

Regards
Chris
socialoutcast
Yes Bikerman, I would agree that there is not room in science, medicine, or law enforcement to rely on owns faith to do the right thing but rather more importantly in your occupation to rely on your training to make necessary decisions. And it is also true that you can use the word "truthful" and "faithful" interchangably with disrupting meaning of what is said.

I like the word fidality. It's a good word. I'll provide diffenition here
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=fidelity

Loyality or faithfulnes works also.

I think your refering diffention number 4 or 5. 6 would work also.
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www.socialoutcast.co.nr
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