OK, so I just want to start a discussion. Basically, I used to believe in God, heaven, hell, etc. just because I was born and raised a Catholic. But I have a not overly religious family, we go to church most of the time and that's basically it.
Anyway, I sort of have stopped believing in all that. I mean, there are good lessons in the Bible and good morals are important, but I just don't see the whole idea feasable with all the evidence around us.
First of all, assuming there were a "God" or some Creator, why would they care about how humans behave? Why would they judge people on being good or evil, and decide everyone's "afterlife"? I don't really think that a Creator of life would do this. Also, how can people know ANYTHING about what God wants? I mean, even believing in Jesus as the son of God, no human really knows about God.
Second, religion was created by people. It is obvious that when religion first started, people had no real knowledge about how the universe worked. They thought the sun revolved around the earth and had many misconceptions about the world around them. They needed to explain these events and religion did that. However, looking back at early beliefs, we now have more solid evidence that refutes these beliefs. Religion was made before evolution was thought of, so the idea of Creation among other things worked to explain the origin of life. This is of course debatable, but still, there is evidence of evolution, but the same cannot be said for Creation.
Finally, how does it make sense to have an "afterlife"? I mean, again looking at scientific evidence of human biology, death is just the end of a system of cells, their reactions, and the chemical signals they send. As pessimistic as it is, it is hard to see human memory and thoughts being preserved in some sort of heaven or hell. It is more logical to think that people just...die. Of course, what kind of early humans would think about this? I'm sure the first "creators" of religion didn't.
Now I guess it does make sense to turn to religion for something to believe in. Everyone would like to think that they can never really, die, but move on to an afterlife. Maybe some people only accept parts of thier religion, and try to use it as a base of thier morals or just to remind them to live good lives (Most people don't believe Creation took 7 days, or whatever the Bible says, but just believe it happened). Personally, I think that a lot of lessons and morals can be learned from religion. But also, a person has the potential to just be as good as they can without some religion dictating to them what is good and what is bad.
I guess I just don't believe any of this anymore. I refuse to accept it, but I want to hear opinions. Please know that you can't post something that will "convert" me back (while you can, but it won't "work" if that is your goal), but you don't have to agree with me, in fact I expect most people here to disagree. Also, I may have not made accurate arguments, or misstated somethings, I know this is not some perfect argument. Heck, you might be able to prove everything I said is incorrect, more power to you. It is not intended to prove anything and is mostly just my rambling of thoughts.
So feel free to comment how you feel about this, maybe if you agree or disagree.
to be honest, there's times I wonder if God truely is good and sometimes if he even exists. But of one thing I am convinced, that the life Jesus talked about is the best possible way to live. Unfortunately there's parts of modern day christianity that, upon closer look, don't really meet that description.
Good luck on your journey bro.
| snowboardalliance wrote: |
OK, so I just want to start a discussion. Basically, I used to believe in God, heaven, hell, etc. just because I was born and raised a Catholic. But I have a not overly religious family, we go to church most of the time and that's basically it.
Anyway, I sort of have stopped believing in all that. I mean, there are good lessons in the Bible and good morals are important, but I just don't see the whole idea feasable with all the evidence around us.
First of all, assuming there were a "God" or some Creator, why would they care about how humans behave? Why would they judge people on being good or evil, and decide everyone's "afterlife"? I don't really think that a Creator of life would do this. Also, how can people know ANYTHING about what God wants? I mean, even believing in Jesus as the son of God, no human really knows about God.
Second, religion was created by people. It is obvious that when religion first started, people had no real knowledge about how the universe worked. They thought the sun revolved around the earth and had many misconceptions about the world around them. They needed to explain these events and religion did that. However, looking back at early beliefs, we now have more solid evidence that refutes these beliefs. Religion was made before evolution was thought of, so the idea of Creation among other things worked to explain the origin of life. This is of course debatable, but still, there is evidence of evolution, but the same cannot be said for Creation.
Finally, how does it make sense to have an "afterlife"? I mean, again looking at scientific evidence of human biology, death is just the end of a system of cells, their reactions, and the chemical signals they send. As pessimistic as it is, it is hard to see human memory and thoughts being preserved in some sort of heaven or hell. It is more logical to think that people just...die. Of course, what kind of early humans would think about this? I'm sure the first "creators" of religion didn't.
Now I guess it does make sense to turn to religion for something to believe in. Everyone would like to think that they can never really, die, but move on to an afterlife. Maybe some people only accept parts of thier religion, and try to use it as a base of thier morals or just to remind them to live good lives (Most people don't believe Creation took 7 days, or whatever the Bible says, but just believe it happened). Personally, I think that a lot of lessons and morals can be learned from religion. But also, a person has the potential to just be as good as they can without some religion dictating to them what is good and what is bad.
I guess I just don't believe any of this anymore. I refuse to accept it, but I want to hear opinions. Please know that you can't post something that will "convert" me back (while you can, but it won't "work" if that is your goal), but you don't have to agree with me, in fact I expect most people here to disagree. Also, I may have not made accurate arguments, or misstated somethings, I know this is not some perfect argument. Heck, you might be able to prove everything I said is incorrect, more power to you. It is not intended to prove anything and is mostly just my rambling of thoughts.
So feel free to comment how you feel about this, maybe if you agree or disagree. |
Peace be upon you.
Excellent post. You interest me greatly. I feel you are a very complex person. I have the urge to dissect you and see what is inside of you lol. Can i please speak to you on an instant chat program. For example, yahoo or msn?
may God bless you. | snowboardalliance wrote: |
| Anyway, I sort of have stopped believing in all that. I mean, there are good lessons in the Bible and good morals are important, but I just don't see the whole idea feasable with all the evidence around us. |
Kudos from me - not necessarily for stopping believing (as some would think, since this comes from an atheist), but rather for being a sceptic raised with a faith. In my opinion, it doesn't matter if you believe or not, as long as you don't eat every statement from a book or a priest raw.
| Quote: |
| First of all, assuming there were a "God" or some Creator, why would they care about how humans behave? Why would they judge people on being good or evil, and decide everyone's "afterlife"? I don't really think that a Creator of life would do this. |
That's my opinion too. Part of it, more specifically: If a being is omnipotent and created this world, why would he require and demand worship? I think the moment this thought entered the minds of Jewish priests, was about when the book of Job was written - specifically saying that even imagining what God's motives are is a sin - and, later, applying human traits to him or judging him on human grounds is wrong. For this argument, we'll ignore that...
The Hebrew/Christian god describes himself as a "jealous god". What kind of omnipotent, benevolent being is jealous and in so desperate need of being loved that he'll punish those who don't love or worship him? No matter how much good a human might do, if he held these traits, he'd be described as a psychopath.
Ideally, I shouldn't (and I don't) require proof of my girlfriend's love to me. God, however, requires proof - whether in the form of being willing to sacrifice your son (Abraham) or going through a magnitude of suffering (Job) or devoting your life to him explicitly. After Jesus, all your sins will be forgiven, except the one unforgivable one. Which is "blaspheming against the holy spirit" - or in other words, as is clear from context and other verses, permanently rejecting Christ as your saviour. Again, if you don't worship and acknowledge God, supposedly you're eternally damned. Psychopath. 
| Quote: |
| They needed to explain these events and religion did that. |
Religion, in my opinion, supplied more than just an explanation for these events. It supplied a cosmology (that's the explanation of "these events"), a psychology ("meaning of life" - often as what supposedly comes after death), a sociology (how to behave - it made specific men's norms into every man's) and a mysticism (awe and wonder at the world, nature, humans, the universe, and how it connected).
Science can't provide all that, but in my opinion, you don't need religion for it either. You can replace all of religion's functions with your own, and they work just as well Don't expect to find answers to everything in life in science either, though. While I'm an atheist, I do think that religious people are often better off in life than people who are so devoted to science that they seek all answers in that. Science doesn't provide meaning in life, it hardly even raises the quality of life in anything but a superficial way.
| Quote: |
| This is of course debatable, but still, there is evidence of evolution, but the same cannot be said for Creation. |
Of course you're right in saying that, but don't expect any creationist to agree with you (but you know that) It's easy to find "evidence" for creation, as long as you're willing to bend reality and/or the written word.
| Quote: |
| But also, a person has the potential to just be as good as they can without some religion dictating to them what is good and what is bad. |
Exactly Of course, (conveniently) according to Christianity, it's not enough to do good, if you reject Christ 
I, Like others, applaud your decision to question faith. In my opinion, there is only one true way to faith, and that is to question everything about it until you find the correct path. For some, it is the path they were spoon fed, others, like myself, follow a completely different tradition, and yet for others the path of faith "ends" with atheism. All of them are true and valid, and I commend you on taking the first step.
I myself took that first step while I was in Highschool, and now, 10 years later, I am still walking the beginings of my path. I hope you find what you seek.
You're right - we don't know what God wants, so can we say "he doesn't want to have anything to do with us"? No, we really can't.
| Soulfire wrote: |
| You're right - we don't know what God wants, so can we say "he doesn't want to have anything to do with us"? No, we really can't. |
Why not? If we don't know what God wonts, for all we know God could only won't is beer. We don't know, we could be incidental and unimportant to God.
Religion always fails when you introduce reason and logic, in the past its lead to agnosticism but which what we know today it leads to atheism.
Last edited by The Conspirator on Mon Sep 25, 2006 10:32 am; edited 1 time in total | Quote: |
snowboardalliance:
OK, so I just want to start a discussion. Basically, I used to believe in God, heaven, hell, etc. just because I was born and raised a Catholic. But I have a not overly religious family, we go to church most of the time and that's basically it.
Anyway, I sort of have stopped believing in all that. I mean, there are good lessons in the Bible and good morals are important, but I just don't see the whole idea feasable with all the evidence around us.
First of all, assuming there were a "God" or some Creator, why would they care about how humans behave? Why would they judge people on being good or evil, and decide everyone's "afterlife"? I don't really think that a Creator of life would do this. Also, how can people know ANYTHING about what God wants? I mean, even believing in Jesus as the son of God, no human really knows about God.
Second, religion was created by people. It is obvious that when religion first started, people had no real knowledge about how the universe worked. They thought the sun revolved around the earth and had many misconceptions about the world around them. They needed to explain these events and religion did that. However, looking back at early beliefs, we now have more solid evidence that refutes these beliefs. Religion was made before evolution was thought of, so the idea of Creation among other things worked to explain the origin of life. This is of course debatable, but still, there is evidence of evolution, but the same cannot be said for Creation.
Finally, how does it make sense to have an "afterlife"? I mean, again looking at scientific evidence of human biology, death is just the end of a system of cells, their reactions, and the chemical signals they send. As pessimistic as it is, it is hard to see human memory and thoughts being preserved in some sort of heaven or hell. It is more logical to think that people just...die. Of course, what kind of early humans would think about this? I'm sure the first "creators" of religion didn't.
Now I guess it does make sense to turn to religion for something to believe in. Everyone would like to think that they can never really, die, but move on to an afterlife. Maybe some people only accept parts of thier religion, and try to use it as a base of thier morals or just to remind them to live good lives (Most people don't believe Creation took 7 days, or whatever the Bible says, but just believe it happened). Personally, I think that a lot of lessons and morals can be learned from religion. But also, a person has the potential to just be as good as they can without some religion dictating to them what is good and what is bad.
I guess I just don't believe any of this anymore. I refuse to accept it, but I want to hear opinions. Please know that you can't post something that will "convert" me back (while you can, but it won't "work" if that is your goal), but you don't have to agree with me, in fact I expect most people here to disagree. Also, I may have not made accurate arguments, or misstated somethings, I know this is not some perfect argument. Heck, you might be able to prove everything I said is incorrect, more power to you. It is not intended to prove anything and is mostly just my rambling of thoughts.
So feel free to comment how you feel about this, maybe if you agree or disagree.
|
I'm non Atheist but I agree what you have posting.
and one more post I'm greatly Agree:
| Quote: |
Kaneda:
why would He require and demand worship?
|
this have remember me that,
Somebody, Something always wish or FORCE people to worship on him is EVIL. like many story I've ever read. if you carefully think of this. the God they taught to us is very near to this Evil. they want us to believe, worshipped or submit on HIm. or Him threaten us with his HELL. what's the different with the Evil on the story book. God theraten us most in fact with his hell.
so I don't believe all of this religion. now I believe that's no religion is original from God, or god will never ever sent any of his message to the earth to safe us from evil (if he is exist).
I just still believe there is a GOD that want us to do good thing.
but don't know anything about Him since God don't intend to let us know Him whether He is exist or not (if he is exist). so anybody just as their wish chose to believe or not. nothing sin as far as everybody is doing good by any mean neccesary.
that's why I said I'm Theist but still agree with you post.
why we must believe something that we even don't know.
if we were created not to know Him (exist or not) just do and live
as we never know Him (exist or not). | socialoutcast wrote: |
So, what will it be, the red pill, or the blue pill? As Morphious offers it. Take the red pill to discover the truth about God, or take the blue pill to continue in your own fantisy world. All that is at stake is knowing the truth. You have to discover it out there and not draw conclusion from your imagination. After all I think St. Paul took the red pill.
_____________________
www.socialoutcast.co.nr |
I have taken both pills, I've delved deep into the faith, and believed I had felt the presence of God, felt Jesus Christ in the Blessed Eucharist during Adoration, and when I read the bible I felt like it was directed at me and my life. And when the excitement was over, when I was going through the "dark night", that is, when I was in great depth of theology and mysticism, I felt like either giving it up or resigning to a blind faith and trust in a God I could never truly know. That's where my experience of St. Paul came from.
Then I took the other pill. Maybe I was greedy like Adam for knowledge and I ate the forbidden food. Then I opened my mind to question the very foundation of my faith. I compared the Holy Spirit to the positive unconsciousness and the devil to the negative unconsciousness and hey.... perfect match!!!
Being a conservative catholic I tried to argue against that theory of a psychological God in defense of my faith, but I gave that up coz it means resigning to blind faith and illogical reasoning. I researched into the history of the Catholic Church, and found that around the time the nicene creed was formed, there was so much theologies about Christ, that the pope, who was in power, called those theologies that didn't match tradition, they were called heresies. And yet at that time there was pope's 12 years old, families trying to take control of the papacy for power etc. There was a power-driven society in Rome, no doubt. After that date, the power of the Vatican was unquestionable, almost like infallibility until infallibitiy itself was declared as doctrine. All other ideas like Galileo's round earth, Islam etc, were all suppressed, even depression treated like a mortal sin, until Vatican II. At vatican II, the Catholic church resigned it's power to matter's of doctrine and the faith only, at long last I'd say. Going by that trend, I felt like the Catholic Church was run by mankind, yet ideally God still existed in it somewhere among the madness.
So I accepted the weaknesses of the Catholic Church and held steadfast to my faith. But then I took more of those blue pills and started to question my faith further, because I was still unhappy in my faith, still dark. My problem wasn't with the Catholic Church, it was with God himself. Why couldn't I feel him anymore? I had read half the bible from Genesis to the psalms, and the new testament, I had been to so many prayer groups, retreats, pilgrimages etc, all surrounding myself with religious images, to no avail. When I prayed to God, nothing happened that struck me as supernatural. After some time I realised that when I felt God's presence it was just my imagination. Nothing really happened in my life that was an act of God, really it was just coincidence. After that, I am now in a state of rejecting the faith, because God is just what we make of him.
And regarding the majority of people, if we all argue there's aliens out there or not, doesn't that mean there definetley is aliens out there. If we talk about it so much, doesn't that make it real??? Aliens are out there.
In fact, this theory doesn't hold, because the perspective of the truth is not the same as the truth itself.
Truth = reality. Truth is not the same as God. God is nothing to do with reality, if he was then we could prove his existence by analyzing his relationship with reality. The only philosophy that can explain God's existence rationally is the cause-effect philosophy, but that is scientifically impossible for a God to create out of nothing. There are other explanations of the first cause, namely an infinite never-ending cyclic universe, the String theory or Hawkings quantum foam theory. Metaphysics no longer explains God's existence, only theology which is totally abstract from reality.Okay, I'm not going to tell you that what you read in any version of the bible is true. I'm not going to tell you that if you fail to repent and continue a life of sin, that you'll end up in hell when you die.
I will tell you that I 100% believe in the existence of God. My faith in him is unwavering. 1) He told me, with a feeling, that I would marry the woman who became my wife -- and I had just met her. There's more to it than that, but that's the summary. That happened in 1983. 2) He told me something else, with a feeling, in January of 2001. He told me to tell people that he existed and that was all. That was my sole mission.
When I say "feeling", I say that because he never spoke to me and I didn't hear words in my head. Still, I knew exactly what had happened.
Before those two things happened, I wasn't religious and I'm still not religious unless you call belief and faith religion. I don't. But I digress. Before those two things happened, other things had happened to me to make me suspect that God truly existed.
Prior to 1974, when I was too short to climb over the short fence at my parent's house, I tried to climb the fence using a bicycle as a ladder. I put my arms over the other side and grabbed a wood brace and the bicycle fell over. I was precariously holding my arms stiff over a corrugated tin fence that would have slice both arms if I let go. I was so scared that I could even talk. I managed to blurt out a weak "help!" once. My oldest brother was in the house (which was made of adobe brick and wood) and watching TV. That's where I had left him earlier. My oldest brother is 10 years older than I and at that time, already fully grown. Anyway, just when I thought I couldn't hold on anymore, he bolted out of the house and came and lifted me off the fence. How did he know I was there? He couldn't see me from any window and I know he couldn't hear me.
In 1978, while I was in the delayed entry program prior to heading to military basic training, I was out riding a bicycle behind my younger brother. We both had 10-speeds and rode five to ten miles a day during the summer months, usually between the homes of relatives. One eventful day, I was struck from behind by a speeding pickup truck, lifted off the bicycle and carried to the other side of the road while the truck braked and swerved. I ended up in the hospital with a cracked pelvis and was released 17 days later. The bicycle was bent into a 45 degree angle. The doctor that read the report and then x-rayed me could not figure out how the bicycle was bent the way it was and I was still alive. The point of impact and the speed at which I had to have been hit should have severed my body into two parts.
The only way I could NOT believe in God is if I ignored everything that has happened to me.
Well sometimes I doubt of god's existance, but u know there are many things that proves there is a god, that can be proved even scientifically.
I am not saying catholic or islamic god exists or buda exists... maybe any of them exists but the thing is there is a god. Still trying to figure out if he(altough god may be a she or it too) is good or if he is just playing with us. Sometimes he acts like he is a child playing dolls with humanity. Well, I prefer seeing things from Einstein's point of view:
"My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind."
aye guys.. this is one tru complicated topic to discuss about.. argueing that there is God and there is not.. it is more simple to think that.. there is something out there.. yet for some people they haven't felt the presence.. most likely what happens is... when we do not have an answer for something happen in our life.. we turn to relegion and God.. like the bicycle bend above.. and for some people everything have a logic reason.. and yet they say coincidence for the things that they do not have an explanation... and we have people fighting over relegion trying to prove that their's is the true relegion.. I do not think any of the above matters in anyway.. as long as you are a good human being.. I do not care of you are a Hindu, Musalman, Christian or jew.. I care if you are a human.. and don't want you to act like a human.. I wan't you to behave like one.. It is OK to argue if there is a God or not.. but it is stupid thing to argue.. which God is true .. thanks... guys... comments are welcome..
| RT Cunningham wrote: |
| Prior to 1974, when I was too short to climb over the short fence at my parent's house, I tried to climb the fence using a bicycle as a ladder. I put my arms over the other side and grabbed a wood brace and the bicycle fell over. I was precariously holding my arms stiff over a corrugated tin fence that would have slice both arms if I let go. I was so scared that I could even talk. I managed to blurt out a weak "help!" once. My oldest brother was in the house (which was made of adobe brick and wood) and watching TV. That's where I had left him earlier. My oldest brother is 10 years older than I and at that time, already fully grown. Anyway, just when I thought I couldn't hold on anymore, he bolted out of the house and came and lifted me off the fence. How did he know I was there? He couldn't see me from any window and I know he couldn't hear me. |
I hear these kinds of testimonials all the time, and I don't see them being particularly helpful to anyone who is asking themselves the question that the original poster is asking. The reason is that you're simply not using any kind of objective rational logic when making the conclusions you are making.
The first problem is that you're using circular logic. You can only conclude god told your brother to come get you if you assume god exists beforehand. And if you assume the answer before you even look for it, what kind of proof do you think you have?
The next problem is that you're pulling a theoretical cause right out of thin air with no particular reason for it. Why god? Why not ghosts? Why not fairies? Again, the only answer to those questions is that you must have come to your conclusion beforehand.
Finally, there's the matter of Ockham's Razor, and the simple fact that it makes more sense when you hear hoofbeats to assume horses rather than zebras. When you say, "He couldn't see me from any window and I know he couldn't hear me", how do you know this? You just do? No proof at all? You just sort of know it? Are you a communications engineer? Do you know the mechanics of sound and the way sound energy dissipates in an atmosphere, and how the temperature and/or humidity affect the speed and energy dissipation of the sound wave? Are you aware that a whisper can travel for kilometers under the right conditions? Did you consider that your brother didn't necessarily need to hear your call for help in order to perceive it? And that he may not have consciously perceived it, but he may have detected it subconsciously?
The likelihood of those things happening is low, but but not ridiculously low. And it's certainly a lot more likely that you were blessed by a lucky turn of fluid dynamics than by a mysterious, mythical being from another plane of existence.
The only way you can consider that case evidence for anything is if you believe the thing to begin with, which makes the entire case study useless to anyone who is seeking answers.
| RT Cunningham wrote: |
| In 1978, while I was in the delayed entry program prior to heading to military basic training, I was out riding a bicycle behind my younger brother. We both had 10-speeds and rode five to ten miles a day during the summer months, usually between the homes of relatives. One eventful day, I was struck from behind by a speeding pickup truck, lifted off the bicycle and carried to the other side of the road while the truck braked and swerved. I ended up in the hospital with a cracked pelvis and was released 17 days later. The bicycle was bent into a 45 degree angle. The doctor that read the report and then x-rayed me could not figure out how the bicycle was bent the way it was and I was still alive. The point of impact and the speed at which I had to have been hit should have severed my body into two parts. |
Ah, and you're an expert in mechanics and anatomy now? You must be to come to that conclusion. I'm truly impressed: I honestly wouldn't have been able to take force and velocity vector measurements on the fly while in the middle of an accident, but clearly you managed to do this if you were able to make a conclusion like that.
Or not, hm?
Look, a doctor is a doctor. Lots of respect to them for what they do and the depth and breadth of knowledge they have to have in order to do what they do. But what they do is diagnose and treat illnesses and injuries. They don't study mechanics. Go ahead: ask your doctor to estimate the force you were struck with in Newtons. Just a ballpark, order-of-magnitude estimate. I can do it; I am a mechanical engineer who is used to working with force calculations. Betcha your doctor can't. Ask your doctor also to estimate the amount of force - again, just a ballpark order-of-magnitude guess - required to bend a bicycle. Ask him to come up with a guess of where the energies of the collision were dissipated. You're not likely to get useful answers.
You want a real engineering answer? I'm totally guessing at how the crash happened, but if it did happen the way I think it did, you're probably alive today because your bike was bent in half like that, not in spite of it. It's contrary to "common" sense, and it will probably leave your doctor scratching his head, but it's the way things usually work out in a collision.
As far as structural mechanics and impact physics goes, your doctor is about as knowledgable as your barber or the hospital janitor. Sounds really impressive when you say the doctor was mystified. Sounds a little less impressive when you say your paperboy was mystified. But it's all the same thing.
Again, your evidence is circular. The only way it can even be considered evidence for god - let alone proof - is if you believe in god to begin with. Which makes it utterly useless for anyone who is looking for the answer.
Unfortunately, such is usually the case with testimonials. Anyone seeking answers, such as the original poster, should really not waste their time with them. The method the original poster is using - logical analysis - is much better.well, humans always having conflict between their mind and actions. sometimes i'll also try to not believe in god or religion but why i wanna doing this? i think the most important thing in religion is it try to teach us to behave good, treat others with open heart, honest and etc. meaning the religion is just a guide for us to follow. and you still can "not following the guide" if you want. so, if you don't want to believe in religion, i don't think it is a big matter as long as you behave good, think good, talk good, eat good.
I see.
So it's easy to disgregard any kind of experience or testimonial. I explained why I believe and why I have faith. I could easily have gone into greater detail and explained every nuance of every instance, but that wasn't the point. To make any assumptions based on the information I presented is arrogance on your part.
On to the answer to the question that the original poster asked.
| Quote: |
| First of all, assuming there were a "God" or some Creator, why would they care about how humans behave? Why would they judge people on being good or evil, and decide everyone's "afterlife"? I don't really think that a Creator of life would do this. Also, how can people know ANYTHING about what God wants? I mean, even believing in Jesus as the son of God, no human really knows about God. |
Here's some information that I'll just pull out of my ass (or at least the debunkers will say so, so I'll save them the effort). Jesus IS the God of the old testament. If you don't believe me, read the part of the bible where he says something like, "...before Moses, I am". No one has ever known his father.
So why would he care about us? Because we were specifically created to evolve and eventually become exactly like him, part of the God family. As far as the afterlife goes, no one can agree on what actually happens because anyone who has actually died for more than a day and then come back to life isn't talking about it (if they even exist).
After all of my experiences (and I was already in my 40's), I started to research the bible, the apocrypha, and other non-religious historical documents. If you read the material objectively, you can find the answers to the questions you have.
Here. I'll throw another bone. Did you know that many, many people have already received the mark of the beast and don't even know it? For the answer to that question, learn about the history of the Catholic church and the meaning of the sabbath.
That is all. | RT Cunningham wrote: |
I see.
So it's easy to disgregard any kind of experience or testimonial. I explained why I believe and why I have faith. I could easily have gone into greater detail and explained every nuance of every instance, but that wasn't the point. To make any assumptions based on the information I presented is arrogance on your part.
|
You should listen to what Indi said. She wasn't being arrogant, just realistic. It's very important to search for truth. I always do it
You don't know how many times i have tried to attack my own faith, and still do privately to try and find a fault with it. Islam has stood many different tests (although it's important to note that the exception was the Hadiths which failed many tests, and are a corruption to Islam).
You should do what i do. Don't be scared of challenging faith. It's better to be battlescared yet certain, then trust in what you don't know and be ignorant.
I'm not saying your miracle isn't a miracle, just that you have to accept it might not have been a miracle.
However, my personal opinion, is that your experience might have been a miracle. And i'm happy to hear you have faith.
may God bless you. Thank you for the comments. I didn't get angry, I just couldn't understand how anyone could make assumptions based on very little information.
I challenge my faith constantly. I have to because I have a wife and son along with umpteen relatives that rely on my decisions every single day here in the Philippines. I'm a godfather to countless children -- and I'm not even Catholic. They call it "ninong" here. So when I hear 'Ninong?" from any distance, I know they're talking to me.
I find the grace I live under really amazing. I have survived numerous accidents and two military conflicts. I made through the 20 military years and am now drawing a pension which supports more than just my family. If I were to guess, perhaps the latter is the reason I survived the former.
I'm satisfied simply to say that God exists, as I was told to do. I can't say more than that because I'm not a religious person. It may sound contrary to what I write, but it's true. I don't go to church and I don't pray on a regular basis. I don't even belong to a particular denomination. I was baptized in 2001 at a nondenominational church.
Anyway, that's enough of all that. I made my point. Thanks all.
| RT Cunningham wrote: |
| So it's easy to disgregard any kind of experience or testimonial. |
Bingo. That was actually my whole point.
| RT Cunningham wrote: |
| I explained why I believe and why I have faith. |
Which is fascinating, I'm sure, but as I explained, none of that has any use to anyone who is seriously looking for answers. Those incidents may make your faith stronger, but in order for them to have any real relevance on your faith you have to have faith to begin with. That means that they're actually no help to someone who is trying to determine the truth by investigation.
Science frowns on the use of anecdotal evidence and even case studies, except in very rare cases. And even then, it is almost exclusively reserved for the purpose of illustrating an effect or property that has already been proven, or, alternatively, highlighting an interesting observation that requires further research. To put it another way, you can't use an anecdote to prove anything, but you can use it to suggest something else that can be investigated.
If snowboardalliance is serious about seeking truth, then he's going about it the right way, from what he wrote at least. The same for loyal. If you're serious about testing your faith, then you have to try to disprove it, not just look for evidence that supports what you already believe. loyal hit it right on the money when he said: "Don't be scared of challenging faith. It's better to be battlescared yet certain, then trust in what you don't know and be ignorant." Genius wording. And he's right when he says that your experience may well have been a miracle. Who knows? If you want to believe it's a miracle, go ahead. But don't try to pass it off as proof of anything, because that's just dishonest.
| RT Cunningham wrote: |
| Thank you for the comments. I didn't get angry, I just couldn't understand how anyone could make assumptions based on very little information. |
Tsk, do you really want to know how I could make those assumptions, or are you simply looking for an excuse to call me arrogant? I could explain in detail the fact that there was a lot more information in what you wrote than what you probably think you put there - if you know how to look for it, and it is my job/career to look for that kind of information - and how I was able to estimate a reasonable model of the accident using that information, if you really care, but in general the same problem in logic that you showed in your first post is showing up here. In essence, just because you can't see how your brother heard you in the house doesn't mean that there wasn't a perfectly rational explanation for it, and just because you can't see how I derived the estimate of what happened in the accident doesn't mean that the information isn't plain to see to someone who knows what to look for.OK, I'll take some time now to comment on your replies. I'd just like to say, wow, I didn't expect this much response. I think this has been very interesting to discuss everyone's opinions.
OK...
Kaneda:
You make some very good points that add on to what I said. I agree on your added information and some looks at the other side to what I said.
| Shike wrote: |
I, Like others, applaud your decision to question faith. In my opinion, there is only one true way to faith, and that is to question everything about it until you find the correct path. For some, it is the path they were spoon fed, others, like myself, follow a completely different tradition, and yet for others the path of faith "ends" with atheism. All of them are true and valid, and I commend you on taking the first step.
I myself took that first step while I was in Highschool, and now, 10 years later, I am still walking the beginings of my path. I hope you find what you seek. |
Yes, I really feel that even if you are strongly religous, you need to make that choice on your own. Just believing everything you are told I really think is bull. If you really study and understand your faith, and maybe even look at other religions, I applaud your decision, because it is your own.
| The Conspirator wrote: |
Religion always fails when you introduce reason and logic, in the past its lead to agnosticism but which what we know today it leads to atheism. |
| doomz wrote: |
I'm non Atheist but I agree what you have posting.
and one more post I'm greatly Agree:
| Quote: |
Kaneda:
why would He require and demand worship?
|
this have remember me that,
Somebody, Something always wish or FORCE people to worship on him is EVIL. like many story I've ever read. if you carefully think of this. the God they taught to us is very near to this Evil. they want us to believe, worshipped or submit on HIm. or Him threaten us with his HELL. what's the different with the Evil on the story book. God theraten us most in fact with his hell.
so I don't believe all of this religion. now I believe that's no religion is original from God, or god will never ever sent any of his message to the earth to safe us from evil (if he is exist).
I just still believe there is a GOD that want us to do good thing.
but don't know anything about Him since God don't intend to let us know Him whether He is exist or not (if he is exist). so anybody just as their wish chose to believe or not. nothing sin as far as everybody is doing good by any mean neccesary.
that's why I said I'm Theist but still agree with you post.
why we must believe something that we even don't know.
if we were created not to know Him (exist or not) just do and live
as we never know Him (exist or not). |
Thanks for that great reply of a real believer in God. I agree that any God would not be able to tell people his intentions.
| Lennon wrote: |
| socialoutcast wrote: |
So, what will it be, the red pill, or the blue pill? As Morphious offers it. Take the red pill to discover the truth about God, or take the blue pill to continue in your own fantisy world. All that is at stake is knowing the truth. You have to discover it out there and not draw conclusion from your imagination. After all I think St. Paul took the red pill.
_____________________
www.socialoutcast.co.nr |
...
Truth = reality. Truth is not the same as God. God is nothing to do with reality, if he was then we could prove his existence by analyzing his relationship with reality. The only philosophy that can explain God's existence rationally is the cause-effect philosophy, but that is scientifically impossible for a God to create out of nothing. There are other explanations of the first cause, namely an infinite never-ending cyclic universe, the String theory or Hawkings quantum foam theory. Metaphysics no longer explains God's existence, only theology which is totally abstract from reality. |
Yes, really I think that quote should just say that you can take the blue pill period. I don't care what your views are, you will not ever know the truth during your life (the exception being the believers of life after death who could contradict this). Whatever your beliefs, they are the "fantasy" world of the blue pill. This really gets into the debates on what is reality, but basically, with no way to prove it, there is no absolute truth.
This reminds me of my political and economics class when we studied some philosophy (or maybe some other area, but that is beside the point). Basically, there is TRUTH (absoulte), truth (can be proven wrong), and relativism. TRUTH is like way back when people believed everything their leaders told them. truth is more like science, in that we can discover something that is "true" but have to accept that it can be proven wrong. Relativism is the other end that nothing is true, but it is what you believe. I believe that people need to look at general things in life with the truth viewpoint, but other areas like religion really require relativism. I mean, look at all the different views on religion, with varying levels of belief and the vast amount of religions, what is true, is more up to what you believe to be true. I don't know if this makes sense or if I am explaining it right, but really it is just asking "what is truth?"
| Indi wrote: |
I hear these kinds of testimonials all the time, and I don't see them being particularly helpful to anyone who is asking themselves the question that the original poster is asking. The reason is that you're simply not using any kind of objective rational logic when making the conclusions you are making.
The first problem is that you're using circular logic. You can only conclude god told your brother to come get you if you assume god exists beforehand. And if you assume the answer before you even look for it, what kind of proof do you think you have?
The next problem is that you're pulling a theoretical cause right out of thin air with no particular reason for it. Why god? Why not ghosts? Why not fairies? Again, the only answer to those questions is that you must have come to your conclusion beforehand.
Finally, there's the matter of Ockham's Razor, and the simple fact that it makes more sense when you hear hoofbeats to assume horses rather than zebras. When you say, "He couldn't see me from any window and I know he couldn't hear me", how do you know this? You just do? No proof at all? You just sort of know it? Are you a communications engineer? Do you know the mechanics of sound and the way sound energy dissipates in an atmosphere, and how the temperature and/or humidity affect the speed and energy dissipation of the sound wave? Are you aware that a whisper can travel for kilometers under the right conditions? Did you consider that your brother didn't necessarily need to hear your call for help in order to perceive it? And that he may not have consciously perceived it, but he may have detected it subconsciously?
...
Ah, and you're an expert in mechanics and anatomy now? You must be to come to that conclusion. I'm truly impressed: I honestly wouldn't have been able to take force and velocity vector measurements on the fly while in the middle of an accident, but clearly you managed to do this if you were able to make a conclusion like that.
Or not, hm?
Look, a doctor is a doctor. Lots of respect to them for what they do and the depth and breadth of knowledge they have to have in order to do what they do. But what they do is diagnose and treat illnesses and injuries. They don't study mechanics. Go ahead: ask your doctor to estimate the force you were struck with in Newtons. Just a ballpark, order-of-magnitude estimate. I can do it; I am a mechanical engineer who is used to working with force calculations. Betcha your doctor can't. Ask your doctor also to estimate the amount of force - again, just a ballpark order-of-magnitude guess - required to bend a bicycle. Ask him to come up with a guess of where the energies of the collision were dissipated. You're not likely to get useful answers.
You want a real engineering answer? I'm totally guessing at how the crash happened, but if it did happen the way I think it did, you're probably alive today because your bike was bent in half like that, not in spite of it. It's contrary to "common" sense, and it will probably leave your doctor scratching his head, but it's the way things usually work out in a collision.
As far as structural mechanics and impact physics goes, your doctor is about as knowledgable as your barber or the hospital janitor. Sounds really impressive when you say the doctor was mystified. Sounds a little less impressive when you say your paperboy was mystified. But it's all the same thing.
... |
Very good points. Some people may believe in these experiences with God, but they are all personal. They can't be explained to others who don't believe because we have not had the same experience and the situation seems very illogical. I'll just say this: Can you honestly say that if you experienced these same things without even knowing about any religion or God, you would come to the same conclusion? I think that the circular logic as Indi puts it is a major basis of your experience and therefore, you believe in God, because you always have and just found a way to "prove" it to yourself. But what do I know, you might answer that a firm yes. Still, this skepticism (spelling?) is not to attack your views and is nothing personal at you, just my thoughts on the whole matter, I don't mean to offend.
Well thanks to everyone else who I didn't have time to directly respond to. I'm glad I have generated some discussion on this.
-Matt Enjoy your lollipop; it’s the only one you’re ever going to get.
I'm not a champion of religion. I believe more in developing a sort of personal spirituality within.
