Since the time I was a little kid, I've been taught "Homosexuality is wrong", "Homosexuality is Satanic", and "Homosexuality is evil."
But I'm 16 now, and my own thoughts on the matter are coming out (pun slightly intended, I suppose). I'm beginning to wonder if love has any boundaries, if what I was taught wasn't quite right.
And it's causing great frustration on my part. An immense weight... because the thought of me being taught wrong from the start is scary, at least to me.
I know homosexuals, and everyone is so quick to say "They're going to Hell."
But in reality, I don't know... I just don't know... And each passing day I become more disillusioned and confused as to the structure of Christianity. I still subscribe to Jesus' teachings, I still call myself Christian, but I am getting to the point where I hate religion - but love God.
It's aggrivating to me that homosexuality as a sin (I'm not even clear as to if it's a sin or not now) is being elevated above every other sin. We all sin, why are homosexuals "so bad" then? Isn't a sin a sin? That's what I've been taught too... all sins are equal. Then why are we so obsessed with homosexuality?
I'm just wrestling with friends over the issue, and I know a few people who are homosexual... and they think that I think they're going to Hell, which I don't even know...
The theory that all sins are equal is not true. Murdering masses and making a lie cannot be equal sins. If you have made a sin, no one is going to forgive for it. The only thing, you can do to get rid of those sins is to do more good. Homo-sexuality is unnatural and unsocial, so it is a sin. But the sin of Homo-sexuality cannot have similar value as the sin of murdering masses.
nam_siddharth: you are aware that through out most of history is was "social?" Its only after the rise of Christianity that it became "unsocial" on a lag scale.
Christan, Muslims and Jews are too hung up on sexuality, its trivial. So a man has sex with a man, that doesn't make him any more evil or good. A good person is a good person regardless of which sex he was sex with.
The whole idea originates from one peron, pagans saw no problem with homosexuality and in some placed it was encouraged and the same was true for the Jews of the era but some people in Israel where turning to paganism so a guy decided that homosexuality was a sin, was evil in order to demonize the pagans.
Its a common tactic, make something up or say something benign is evil in order to demonize certain groups of people.
I do not know much about western history, but throughout the whole Indian history, homo-sexuality is unsocial. Not only homo-sexuality, but non-mariage sexual relations are also unsocial. Homo-sexuality was never practiced at remarkable scale in India, so there is almost nothing about homosexuality in Indian religious texts. India is birthplace of many and most diverve religions, but none of them consider extra-marriage relations social.
thats beautiful soulfire...
| Soulfire wrote: |
I'm beginning to wonder if love has any boundaries
|
espically this. Short answer, no. Long answer, no, and attempting to fully understand that (while impossible) is one hell of a journey. | Soulfire wrote: |
Since the time I was a little kid, I've been taught "Homosexuality is wrong", "Homosexuality is Satanic", and "Homosexuality is evil."
But I'm 16 now, and my own thoughts on the matter are coming out (pun slightly intended, I suppose). I'm beginning to wonder if love has any boundaries, if what I was taught wasn't quite right.
And it's causing great frustration on my part. An immense weight... because the thought of me being taught wrong from the start is scary, at least to me. |
I know that we disagree on many topics, but believe me when I say that know exactly what you're feeling, and what you're going through at this point.
At this point in your life, you're going to have to start asking some really hard questions, which you may or may not have done before from time to time... but what's different now is that for the first time you're going to have to find the answers yourself.
You're going to have to decide just how far you're willing to go in your search for the truth. When I was confronted with the same dilemma, I went perhaps a little too far. I read the writings of Christian and anti-Christian thinkers from all over the spectrum. I analysed the bible from theological, philosophical and even literary perspectives. I talked to people from dozens of different sects, from Orthodox Roman Catholic all the way through to Mormon and back again. I even learned some rudimentary Hebrew, Latin and Greek so that I could read key phrases of the bible in their original form. Your mileage may vary, because the key thing here is to satisfy yourself.
Why? Because ultimately what religion is - once you strip away all of the ceremony and the extraneous bullshit - it's a way to understand your personal relationship with God. And that's between you and God only.
If you believe that everyone has a little voice in them that speaks Truth to them, or that God has given each of us the power to know right from wrong, then what you have to do is follow that voice, wherever it urges you to go. If something about what you've been taught sounds contrary to what that little voice says to you - such as the various churches' policies on homosexuality - then dig deeper until you find an answer that satisfies that little voice.
You may discover that you end up with a belief set that doesn't correspond to the branch of Christianity you currently follow, but that does correspond to another branch's. In that case, you may decide to switch. Or, you may find that your beliefs don't quite correspond to any branch's. In that case, you may decide to stick with your branch but ignore the teachings you believe are wrong. Or you may decide to eschew all organized Christianity, and find your own, personalized relationship with God.
This stage in your life is the part where you find your own path. That doesn't necessarily mean that you turn your back on organized Christianity. It means that whatever you choose from this point on - even if you choose to continue believing what you believe now - will be your choice, and not simply what you were taught to believe.
| Soulfire wrote: |
I know homosexuals, and everyone is so quick to say "They're going to Hell."
But in reality, I don't know... I just don't know... And each passing day I become more disillusioned and confused as to the structure of Christianity. I still subscribe to Jesus' teachings, I still call myself Christian, but I am getting to the point where I hate religion - but love God. |
But does that really have to be a conflict? Jesus himself was none too thrilled with organized religion.
| Soulfire wrote: |
It's aggrivating to me that homosexuality as a sin (I'm not even clear as to if it's a sin or not now) is being elevated above every other sin. We all sin, why are homosexuals "so bad" then? Isn't a sin a sin? That's what I've been taught too... all sins are equal. Then why are we so obsessed with homosexuality?
I'm just wrestling with friends over the issue, and I know a few people who are homosexual... and they think that I think they're going to Hell, which I don't even know... |
I would call this the greatest Christian struggle of our time (much like religious violence is the greatest struggle of Islam). Unfortunately, the battle is hot right now, so it's virtually impossible to sit on the fence. Every Christian has to pick a side, which means that you are going to have to determine for yourself - by whatever means are necessary for you to be at peace with your choice - where you stand.
But that doesn't mean that you have to jump to a conclusion. Take your time and find an answer that you believe in. There are plenty of resources available on what the bible itself says about homosexuality, from just about every imaginable perspective. You'll never find a conclusive answer, but if you look hard enough, you'll probably find one that you can be at peace with.Soulfire,
I would take Indi's point to the heart, it's so true, so clear it needs no explanation.
And to help you on your quest I will provide some of the questions of my own and the answers I got.
First, infallibility.
Is the Catholic church qualified to claim Homosexuality a sin?
Using it's authority, it claimed depression as a mortal sin as a rejection of God's love. It claimed that no-one could go to heaven except through baptism in Christ for redemption and ressurection. It claimed the world was flat, witches to be burned at stake, and so on... And then it claims that it is on a learning curve, on the road to perfection. It claims now that only dogma, that is, matters of faith, is now open to infallibility. Depression is now seen as a mental illness, so the catholic church had to revise it's teachings on the matter. Pope Benedict XVI teaches that Harry Potter movies are exposing people to witchcraft and care should be taken in regard. Clearly we have to distinguish between the pope's opinion and the infallible church's teaching. Homosexuality, contraception and abortion are all morally subjective to the Catholic church's teachings, and so the Catholic church must teach it's moral standing towards these. It seeks it's law from the bible and it's traditions. Jesus denounces the lust of a man eyeing up a woman and with that train of thought (tradition) the catholic church likewise denounces homosexuality. The catholic church teaches homosexuality, like adultury as a form of lust. You will find no more than 2-3 references of St. Paul's opinions in the new testament regarding homosexuality, and one episode of Sodom and Gommorath in Genesis where this takes place. They provide a moral standing towards these with no justification for case of homosexuality that are not based on lust. Likewise many other of the traditions taught by the Catholic Church cannot be justified in the bible. So most infallible teachings cannot be justified on the bible, and are based simply on a single-minded moral standing (tradition).
Second, is homosexuality natural.
If it is natural, then the Catholic Church must sooner or later recognise the human nature in this. Evil is not natural, so if homosexuality is natural, then it cannot be pure evil. Because everything in nature is by God's design good. So if homosexuality is natural then everything it produces, love, is good.
If it is not natural, then the Catholic Church can immediately claim it as a form of pure evil, which it does without justification towards the bible and only by moral standing (tradition).
Yet we have many posts here on the topic "Is homosexuality natural", and not one can claim if it is truly natural or unnatural.
Good thoughts everyone, my thoughts surfaced last night after watching 'Degrassi: The Next Generation' which is like a high school teen soap opera, and it's really good.
One of the characters, named Marco, is gay. His ex-friend Spinner belongs to "The Friendship Club" which is a Christian club in the school. Linus leads this club, and here is the exchange between Marco and Linus:
Spinner's new friends decide to protest the Safe Sex Assembly that Marco helped organize. They argue that "abstinence" is the only way." Linus, the leader behind the protest, personally attacks Marco for his open homosexuality and "sexually immoral" ways.
Linus: I think it’s better if people don’t have sex unless they’re married.
Marco: Stop. Look just leave us alone. Go home, go to church, do whatever!
Linus: Why don’t you try going to church?
Marco: I do. Every Sunday.
Marco shows him his necklace.
Linus: They let you in?
Marco: What’s that supposed to mean?
Linus: I think you know exactly what it means. The Bible’s clear about sexual deviancy.
Marco: What?! Who is this bigoted freak?!
Linus: So I’m a freak? It’s better than being a homo.
Spinner: Woah guys. Take it easy.
Marco: No Spinner shut up. You and your friend just...go to hell.
Linus: So we can visit you, fag?
Marco attacks Linus and Spinner breaks them up. Spinner realizes that Marco is right, tells Marco he's sorry for the Friendship Club, and Marco realises that Spinner is confused about everything.
I can really relate to Spinner in the situation - confused and lost in everything, so it would appear.
Linus is suposed to be Christian, but if that is the Christian attitude - it is JUST as wrong as Marco being gay. And in reality, being gay isn't the sin, the Bible just refers to the sexual act of "lying with another man."
*Sighs*
The people who taught you that homosexuality was a sin, were expressing their own beliefs. Now you have reached a point in your life where you are experiencing the world around you and trying to make sense of it according to what you have been told by others. If you personally feel that homosexuality is not a sin, then that is right for you.
People interperate the bible in different ways. One person reads one thing into it, and someone else the complete opposite.
I know Christians believe man was created in God's likeness, so God created homosexuals. People do not wake up one morning and decide they are going to be homosexual, it's the way they were born. considering how hard life can be for homosexuals, can you truely believe that people would choose to be so?
In most ancient cultures homosexuality was an accepted form of sexual behavior. It's only in more recent history that it's been regarded as sinful. I can't give dates as to when homosexual acts started to be considered sinful because it's it's of no interest to me.
| Quote: |
| I do not know much about western history, but throughout the whole Indian history, homo-sexuality is unsocial. Not only homo-sexuality, but non-mariage sexual relations are also unsocial. Homo-sexuality was never practiced at remarkable scale in India, so there is almost nothing about homosexuality in Indian religious texts. India is birthplace of many and most diverve religions, but none of them consider extra-marriage relations social. |
That's not what I have read in history books. Ancient India accepted this. There are ancient scripts (e.g. Rig Veda scripts) and sculptures showing that homosexuality dates back to 15,000 bc. Soulfire,
You are starting to find your own moral values in life. You are becoming stronger in your faith and are ready now to question your faith. Many believers are reluctant to question their faith in fear of losing it. in fact the Qur'an forbids questioning the faith for this reason. You are starting to see that not everything is black and white, not just either right or wrong. The fundamental teaching of the Catholic Church, which we learn as infallible and cannot be wrong, may be either narrow-minded or perfect. There is a large grey area in homosexuality and contraception, where the moral and ethical values of right and wrong become less obvious. Both arguements sound convincing, and you will have to decide between the Vatican as your judge or your heart. Unfortunately, you may say, I have chosen the latter, but my father chose the former. He is a very very loyal believer of infallibility and the catholic church's teaching, and his faith grew much stronger by questioning his faith and re-confirming what he already believed. You will become stronger by questioning, but which way your soul heads is governed by your trust. Questioning is like eating off either the tree of life or the tree of knowledge, you can't tell the difference until after.
P.S. I'd love to get a reference for those scrolls that are dated to 15,000BC. I didn't think people were able to write any further than about 2,000BC. Papyrus was the first type of scrolls, you might remember, when the Egyption empire was just starting.
| Lennon wrote: |
| P.S. I'd love to get a reference for those scrolls that are dated to 15,000BC. I didn't think people were able to write any further than about 2,000BC. Papyrus was the first type of scrolls, you might remember, when the Egyption empire was just starting. |
If I'm not mistaken the oldest writings are dated back to around 4500BC, somewhere in Babylonia.
I think he was rather referring to some old "gay" sculptures or something similar.I want to be sure this is my opinion though, and not the influences of the world working to water down my Christianity. And for the time being, I'm not really there... I haven't reached that confirmation yet.
| nam_siddharth wrote: |
| I do not know much about western history, but throughout the whole Indian history, homo-sexuality is unsocial. Not only homo-sexuality, but non-mariage sexual relations are also unsocial. Homo-sexuality was never practiced at remarkable scale in India, so there is almost nothing about homosexuality in Indian religious texts. India is birthplace of many and most diverve religions, but none of them consider extra-marriage relations social. |
And when did it become "unsocial" in India? From what I've read Hinduism, and Buddhism have no probation against homosexuality. When Islam got there? And even if it is so what? Just cause it is "unsocial" doesn't;t make it wrong. In some please its unsocial for woman to not to cover there entire body's except there eyes.
On topic: You shouldn't try ti quickly resolve your problem, you need to embrace it. Thought and questions bring you closer to the truth.
EDIT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality#Same-sex_love_in_pre-modern_times
Some interesting readings on homosexuality through many cultures of that past. | Soulfire wrote: |
| I want to be sure this is my opinion though, and not the influences of the world working to water down my Christianity. And for the time being, I'm not really there... I haven't reached that confirmation yet. |
You want to discern if this thought is from God or humanity.
You could real St. paul's teachings of how to discern good from evil.
You've been blessed with wisdom since you're searching for the truth with caution.
And last but not least, since you're catholic, you can talk to a priest about it. I've spoken to many priests before confirming I've lost my faith completely. They are a wealthy resource for spiritual direction.
Just don't end up like me, worrying too much about not finding the truth, exhausting the faith to failure, giving up hope in finding God, finding answers and finding love. | Soulfire wrote: |
| I want to be sure this is my opinion though, and not the influences of the world working to water down my Christianity. And for the time being, I'm not really there... I haven't reached that confirmation yet. |
You can do this through meditaion. When we meditate we block out the world around us and all it's influences.Soulfire, good for you mate, questioning is my life, and if you can make your faith square up to your questions then thats cool, but remember
there is more to life than belief in an old, decrepit faith system
try believing in nothing, and rebuilding your moral system from the ground up, you will probably find life much easier to bear, experiment, sexually, chemically, do anything you want as long as you are okay with it
As far as sin goes, I don't believe that there is a big or little sin. Sin is sin. Man judges the degree of sin, not God.
As far as homosexuality, I do believe it is wrong. There are Bible references that show that. Being man and man or woman and woman, goes against the natural order God created. Nowhere in the Bible does it say "husband and husband" or "wife and wife".
I do applaud the fact that you're questioning. I think it's commendable. All I can say is pray and study over this. God will give you the answer.
