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What kinds of magic do you know to be false?





ocalhoun
I'm trying to do some research here, and what I need to know is, what types of magic (NOT RELIGION, I don't want to turn this into a religeous debate if I can help it) are completely false.

What I don't want to see:
-Smugly saying 'all of them!'
-Telling me which religions are false.
-Telling me things are false which you have not tried.
-Being too embarassed about going in for a falsehood to post here.
-Arguing with eachother about weather ______ is true.

So tell me, what out there can you prove from personal experience to be untrue?
Tell me all the details you can please.
Vanquish
Before I start, I know a magician, and although he won't show me any tricks, he admitted it wasn't real. It's mainly illusions, and skill. I'm not sure if this is the type of magic your talking about, or things like voodoo?
I just thought i'd post a reply for you.

Neal
dray101
Yeah, what kind of magic? Wink

Do you mean unexplained events or 'miracles' or just magicians tricks or something? Rolling Eyes
MyNameIsJim
If you're talking about something like a "faith healing" or something like that, I know a guy who said that he was suckered into one and only found out after the fact that the guy was just pushing on some wierd pressure point and stuff to make him feel wierd and that the "Holy Spirit" was moving him. Not first hand, but I don't really have any reason to doubt this guy, so hope that helped.
Rico
Most ‘magic’ that’s used for entertainment is illusionary. It’s when the occult becomes involved where things begin getting dodgy.
woundedhealer
Witches use object like candles and ribbons for their spells.also the elements fire, water, earth and air. Druids use the energy of the earth and sky for healing. Some may also use the elements earth, fire, water and air.
Is this the sort of magic you mean?
MyNameIsJim
I may be wrong here, but I thought that the Druids didn't channel the energy of the earth for spells and things, just were really early enviromentalists. The just tried to be "in tune" with nature and that sort of thing. I don't know for sure and I searched for Druids on Google and that didn't clairfy things too much for me so if you could explain how they fall in the "magic" category for me, that would be great. Thanks.
indeedwrestling
I find David Blaine to be fake but David Copperfield to be true. Odd, eh?
ocalhoun
woundedhealer wrote:

Is this the sort of magic you mean?

I mean all sorts, expecialy ones you've tried.
Anticollie
Magic simply doesn't work. Let me explain why I have found, in my personal expierences, that magic is simply an old farse that is followed by a minute few people today;

* Magic was origionally concieved to place a "link" between the mystical gods and the natural humans of the earth, because they believed gods had these divine powers, many cultures believed that they did as well, even if it were to a minor extent. The beleifs have died, and so the 'magic' died as well. I'll get into this more soon.

* Magicians use distraction, slide of hand, and other very clever tricks to distract and stupify the audience into beleiving that they're seeing something magic, however, your really seeing a genious at mind manipulation at work, genious, yes... but not magic, sadly.

* The occult have many, many different views, however, I know several Satanists, who basically beleive that the body is a temple, and they they are the masters of their domain. Essentially, they belive that as long as you don't mess with the future of another man, they have no right to mess with yours. While spiritual in nature, it doesn't go much bolder than the christian faith of beleiving in a mythical being who controls, created, and knows everything. The ones who take it a step further and being messing with witchcraft are not classified by Satanists, rather as Wicca, Witches, or cultists.

* Witch-magic is contriversal, but essentially false. I have debated several times with people whom would call themselves witches and wicca, however each time I cone across victorious, assuming they do not shut down after I propose a gut wrenching point... therefore, I think this form of magic is really "I want to beleive it works, but when you beliefs get challeneged, and my work is called into perspective, it truly does nothing."

* Wiccas consider themselves to be healers and fortune tellers of sorts, as far as they're willing to tell me, although they try to do healthy work by using stones and natural elements, unfortuneatly while the aspects of metals and stones have yet to be confirmed or denied by science, this is PROBABLY the closest to "scientific magic" as your ever going to get, these elements do interact with out bodies, and California recognises Aluminum as an agent that can potentially cause Alzheimers Disease, altohugh it being among the top 5 elements found in our planet, the numbers of alz. patients are probably too low to proove this.

* Occult magic is rarly prooven, as it often has to do with a mass suicide that was enduced by heavy brain washing. Cults are rarly more than an insane person with a hidden agenda, such as L. Ron Hubbard and scientology, one day he was quoted as saying sometihng along the lines of "The greatest money-making fraud is religon" and a few days later, poof! Scientology is born. Whether its money, power, or other hidden plans, cults don't actually have "magical aspects" such as the information necessary to get to the gates of heavon by jumping on an asteroid... they just really want something, and they'll not tell you what it is untill it's too late.

This is really all I've ehver had contact with... and my personal expierences, I'm open to any conversation one may want to have via PM, or e-mail at guardofthedead@gmail.com . However, I'll be frank with any scientologist; I am already labeled as an SP (Supressive person) ^_^.

Anticollie.
aceflooder
Well if you ask is there a magic?
Yes there is.

Thats not an illusion.

I know magic is a sin and can be made.
Magic usually effects people with their mind-health and feelings.The magicians use paranormal creatures to make their magic.The creatures are in frequency dimension.(Brain frequency you know)They can effect your mind well you can make things and never remember them.
I think the best defense about magic is belief.Strong believed people never caught in magic because their mind is strong and un effectable.Maybe this is a paranormal subject but i think people can effect themselves with an eye contact.

Never try to make it and live in real world.I suggest.Math physics chemistry are better Laughing
Wynand
Like Vanquish said: “Magic of magicians are only optical illusions.” So this kind of magic is completely false.

There is however a kind of magic that is as real as it gets – it is the magic of Satan and all his evil spirits. You can call it many things: Occult, witchery act.

There is one thing you must know. People can not do magic. What they do effectively is ask the daemons to do these things for them that we perceive as magic. For the demons to do this for them the witch or whatever give her hole life and soul to Satan.
woundedhealer
MyNameIsJim wrote:
I may be wrong here, but I thought that the Druids didn't channel the energy of the earth for spells and things, just were really early enviromentalists. The just tried to be "in tune" with nature and that sort of thing. I don't know for sure and I searched for Druids on Google and that didn't clairfy things too much for me so if you could explain how they fall in the "magic" category for me, that would be great. Thanks.


This is such a huge subject!
The early Druids were much more than enviromentalists. Their training lasted for up to 19 years.

Early Druids were the historians, recorders of important events, poets, singers. They were doctors and seers. Teachers, scientists, advisers, judges, astrominers. They were shaman. They had to learn everything by heart. They were not allowed to write anything down.

When Druids use their hands for healing they use the energy from sky and earth. The early Druids would have used what would be regarded as magic more than Druids of today.

It's difficult to explain the early Druids because people of today think in an entirely different way. They saw everything as being connected. They didn't seperate science, spirituality and the material world.
Soulfire
Although personally I've only dabbled in some sort of witchcraft-type thing, it didn't work - and I am actually a fair bit ashamed for fooling myself into thinking it would work, guess I was just too desperate.

I couldn't tell you what kind of magic or anything, but I can tell you that whatever I tried didn't work. Lighting candles and muttering jibberish won't solve problems.
Lennon
But yet people light candles in churches as a prayer. Is the groups that speak in tongues in a "life in the spirit" prayer group, where people randomly speak anything that enters their mind, is that getting in touch with the spiritual world or their own mind at work. For both evil and good spirituality there seems to be the mind at work. Maybe prayer is a form of magic.

Anyway I think all magic like religion is an illusion.
Sappho
Wynand wrote:
There is one thing you must know. People can not do magic. What they do effectively is ask the daemons to do these things for them that we perceive as magic. For the demons to do this for them the witch or whatever give her hole life and soul to Satan.


As far as i know there is no Satan in Witchcraft, you just sound like a christian with a few hundreds years old mentality. Whatever. Smile

Soulfire wrote:
Although personally I've only dabbled in some sort of witchcraft-type thing, it didn't work - and I am actually a fair bit ashamed for fooling myself into thinking it would work, guess I was just too desperate.

I couldn't tell you what kind of magic or anything, but I can tell you that whatever I tried didn't work. Lighting candles and muttering jibberish won't solve problems.


Maybe thats your problem that you never really believed in it. Did you ever try self hypnosis or astral travel? There are 2 things that makes this hard to accomplish, first is to be free of thoughs, you cant really think about anything in that moment, which is close to impossible for most people, just try it you will always think about something (prolly about how its not goin to work Smile ) and second most difficult thing is to really believe in it. Thats why most people drawn just by curiosity or "power" to this will very soon give up, prolly switching up to next interesting thing that "may work".

At the end its always the power of will in any religion, practising magic or not, and no you can't really freeze time or throw bolts at people as we can see in a serie i am not goin to name here. Smile
Soulfire
Quote:
As far as i know there is no Satan in Witchcraft, you just sound like a christian with a few hundreds years old mentality. Whatever.


It is generally accepted that when you do things against God's will, it is of Satan. That is where the Satan part comes in. Hundreds of years old? Hardly. That mentality is shared today, because this is what the Bible has to say:

Exodus 22:18
Thou shalt not suffer a sorceress to live

Which means (in today's language) - put to death any woman who does evil magic.

Deuteronomy 18:10-11
There shall not be found among you anyone ....that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter or a witch, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

Galatians 5:19-20
...adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft...

(Listing things that are sinful)

Revelations 21:8
"...sorcerers..."

Revelations 21:8 is referring to the 6th group destined for Hell.

That's what the Christian mentality is based on. (King James Version of the Bible used).

Quote:
At the end its always the power of will in any religion, practising magic or not, and no you can't really freeze time or throw bolts at people as we can see in a serie i am not goin to name here.
You're right, I don't believe that it would work. God commands us not to do it, so I'm not going to believe it will work (although it may).

True about the power of will.

And darn, I wanted to throw a bolt at someone. Aww, shucks...
woundedhealer
Quote:
As far as i know there is no Satan in Witchcraft,

You are one hundred percent right there. Satan, or the devil is a Christian thing. The Christians turned the horned god of the pagans into Satan.
Quote:
And darn, I wanted to throw a bolt at someone. Aww, shucks...

A witch wouldn't do that because he/she knows that whatever you give out, returns threefold.

Witchcraft is not just about magic. It's a very spiritual religion. If magic is not practiced within this spirituality it can't, in my mind, succeed.
Tac-Tics
The only REAL magic (and also the best)

http://www.wizards.com/magic/

Remember folks. Time Spiral prerelease tournament this weekend!
ocalhoun
*sigh*
I was afraid of this.
Quote:

What I don't want to see:
-Smugly saying 'all of them!'
-Telling me which religions are false.
-Telling me things are false which you have not tried.
-Being too embarassed about going in for a falsehood to post here.
-Arguing with eachother about weather ______ is true.

Did none of you read this?
Aredon
aceflooder wrote:
Well if you ask is there a magic?
Yes there is.

Thats not an illusion.

I know magic is a sin and can be made.


Wrong, please expand your words, Magic is a general term used to describe man interacting with the supernatural:

Magic - the art of producing a desired effect or result through the use of incantation or various other techniques that presumably assure human control of supernatural agencies or the forces of nature.

With this in mind note that the bible states that, Sorcery, witchcraft, and human sacrifice is a sin, it does NOT asert that magic is a sin as commongly believed.

Sorcery - the art, practices, or spells of a person who is supposed to exercise supernatural powers through the aid of evil spirits; black magic; witchery. (in short the use of ones power for deseption or with the aid of evil)

Now then, assuming magic is a sin, how do you explain the powers granted to christ's followers? It goes under the catagory of magic Wink as does what is defined as "spiritual gifts"
Also note that the bible states Matthew 21:21 (New International Version) - "Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done."
1 Corinthians 12:7-11 (New International Version)7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

Perhaps you should study your faith more closely before making asertions based on it

this was a counter-arguement the the hypocracy of the common christian church, now moving on the my responce to the thread.

In General there are 4 types of "magic":

Light - the use of magic for a divine cause, ie healing the sick, prophesy in God's name, etc.
Dark - The use of magic to harm or decieve innocents, or the use of magic aided by evil
Wild - Magic from the earth itself and the life-force that is very clearly a part of it, dangerous and unpredictable, neutral in light vs dark (claim to be)
Mortal - essentialy a dead magic, as it existed in a time when man spoke the same tongue worldwide, traces of it remain it what we recognize as magicians today, essentualy the ability of slide of hand and show for entertainment.



That is how the spectrums break down essentialy. The more I look into it the more evidence there is to suggest from almost all religions that human beings essentialy have a god-given (in some religions natural) ability that we do not yet understand, if you define that as magic, so be it.
I know all three spectrums to exist from my own personal experiances, if you would like to here stories it will have to be posted another time. I must depart now Wink
ocalhoun
I suppose everybody has missed the fact that this thread was not meant for debate...
MyNameIsJim
Wounded, thanks for the explaination, although I'm not completely clear on the subject, its a little clearer. Do you know of any books or links that might be of some help?
woundedhealer
MyNameIsJim wrote:
Wounded, thanks for the explaination, although I'm not completely clear on the subject, its a little clearer. Do you know of any books or links that might be of some help?

There are some very good books. What are you actually interested in, Paganism, Witchcraft or Druidry?
Aredon
Pagan is a word used to describe anything non-christian. It in itself cannot be a religion Wink, though it is now commonly refered to as one.

Pagan - pertaining to the worship or worshipers of any religion that is neither Christian, Jewish, nor Muslim.

Though I must say wicca and druidism are particualry interesting religions, lets stay on topic, for the most part Wink.

I don't believe in magics that can completely controll a person, on some level if the said magics exist the person must have the option to fight, or the balance of the world would be shifted. That discludes the power behind true names, which if you are dumb enough to give out your true name(assuming you know it), you are allowing for controll over you, and thus it does not effect the balance.

Other than that I do not have many things in my mind that I am closed off in considering.

Now under the catagory of things I have tried, I do not allow any other person to tell me how to essentialy "cast a spell" I supose it would be refered to in modern language. I do not follow the path's set down by other magic-based religions. I trust what my God tells me to do, simply becuase I feel i know him better than any book, or person can define.

I will eloberate on things i have personaly done in my next post. for now im out of time.
benjmd
ocalhoun wrote:
I suppose everybody has missed the fact that this thread was not meant for debate...


Ocalhoun, I think many of the people are rejecting your initial premise that magic exists, which makes your original request much more challenging.

I happen to believe that all types of magic are false. Magic is supposedly human manipulation or interaction with the supernatural. It is my supposition that all such events are likely real physical phenomena that we simply are not yet able to explain (but not without discoverable explanation). The exception to that would be the interface between finite and infinite that inherently exists in the Universe. For those of us who are Christians, it is there that God lies.

Most philosophers on the nature of human beings, the concept of "deity," and the concept of "finitude," would conclude that the concept of "infinite" is by its very nature unable to be understood or perceived.

Long story short: no magic, just nature or infinity. The former we must be able to somehow understand, the latter we must not be able to understand.
NeoValkyrion
If one can't prove magic doesn't exist, then it's wise to always keep the door open to belief that it might.

Assumptions are for the shortsighted.
Jinx
Here is an example of magic that acctually worked. I am a Wiccan, I follow the religion, but I rarely use magic, mainly because most things can be accomplished without it and the sticky karmic ramifications of a poorly thought out spell (like needing a little rain for your garden and accedentaly causing a tornado).
But I have used spells a couple of times, and the one with the most dramatic results was this:

My lease was running out on my apartment and I wanted to find someplace with more room. I was working for minimum wage and couldn't afford much more than I was already paying for my efficiancy. I made a list of things I would like to have - two bedrooms, a porch or balcony, a yard where I could plant roses, a fireplace, a roof that didn't leak, and rent of no more than $50 more than I was already paying. I wrote this list on a slip of paper and set it aside. I then gathered bits of wax and candle stubs and some cotton string and a terracotta pot. I made a candle in the pot (when I melted all the wax bits together it came out a deep brown that was almost the same color as wood, a good color for such a spell).
I drew a picture of a house on the top of the candle and placed the candle on top of my list and an appartment guide. I recited my list aloud and visualized the sort of place where I would like to live. I lit the candle and left it to burn itself out.
I came back later, after several hours. The candle had burnt itself out, and the heat had caught the papers under it on fire, They were burnt to ash, but nothing else was touched. Not even any scorch marks on the wooden table it was sitting on.
About two hours after the candle went out I got a call from a friend. The house nextdoor to his place was up for rent. If I would agree to do all of my own maintainace the rent was acctually cheaper than my efficiancy appartment.
The house was exactly what I had asked for, no more, no less. It had roses in the front yard, an extra bedroom, a front porch, the roof didn't leak, and it had a fireplace. But that's it. It didn't have any heat other than the fireplace. The kitchen didn't have a stove and the refidgerator didn't work very well. That winter the plumbing froze and I had to replace it all myself.
I got, very litteraly, exactly what I had asked for.

That's why I don't do magic very often.
woundedhealer
Quote:
Pagan is a word used to describe anything non-christian. It in itself cannot be a religion

Paganism is indigenous religions. Each of these pagan beliefs are a religion.


Quote:
Wild - Magic from the earth itself and the life-force that is very clearly a part of it, dangerous and unpredictable, neutral in light vs dark (claim to be)

If you are meaning the using of Earths energy for magic, it is not at all dangerous and unpredictable. Energy can be used for good or ill. It is not the energy that is dark, just the way it is used, in the same way as electricity can be used to save life, and to take it.
ocalhoun
benjmd wrote:
ocalhoun wrote:
I suppose everybody has missed the fact that this thread was not meant for debate...


Ocalhoun, I think many of the people are rejecting your initial premise that magic exists, which makes your original request much more challenging.

I happen to believe that all types of magic are false. Magic is supposedly human manipulation or interaction with the supernatural. It is my supposition that all such events are likely real physical phenomena that we simply are not yet able to explain (but not without discoverable explanation). The exception to that would be the interface between finite and infinite that inherently exists in the Universe. For those of us who are Christians, it is there that God lies.

Most philosophers on the nature of human beings, the concept of "deity," and the concept of "finitude," would conclude that the concept of "infinite" is by its very nature unable to be understood or perceived.

Long story short: no magic, just nature or infinity. The former we must be able to somehow understand, the latter we must not be able to understand.

And who said I started from that assumption, I want disproved types of magic.
(To be fair I am working from that assumption, not because I believe it, but in order to cover all the bases, so to speak.)
I don't particularly believe in magic, but I have no real evidence to convince me either way. (Partly the reason for this topic.) I'm working through this route because I'm working through all routes that I cannot prove to be futile.
Aredon
I should have been more clear, by from the earth I ment not in corrilation with a diety. All magics that are neutral so to speak, go under the catagory of wild magics, and yes, earthly magics CAN be unpredictable. Nature does not typicaly take kindly to being manipulated or controlled, willed or requested of, perhaps. I can assure you that just as when man tries to controll nature phisicaly, the same goes for any magics that stem from the earth, "she" will rebell. Also, alchemy is not recognized as a magic in my eyes, so this is discluding any herbal healing recipies, special healing technices, anything not involving a supernatural force, does not go under my 4 catagories becuase it is not magic. This is my break down of what I have personaly observed in the world. Most of the magics in wicca go under my "wild" catagory for their usual unpredictability (as demonstrated by the candle story, sorry to hear about that unfortunate event btw :/).

Also, you are correct in that earthly magics are not always unpredictable, it depends who is using them, why and how. Wink i should have been more specific and for that i apologize.

To the author, i'm sorry that your thread has spiraled into the proving of magic rather than the disproving, but its is rather hard to provide evidence that something we don't understand doesn't exist, it is far easier to provide evidence that it does. As already posted, untill we have solid evidence that it is false you should be open-minded to its existance.

Further, recent studies show that human's have a sort of bio-energy that emits from the skin, it is incredubly low frequency and is hightened at areas of nerve concentration. I lack links to these studies but i do recall it being on TV, if i am wrong go ahead and let me know Wink. I seem to remember something about studies into faith healing and how prayer did speed up the healing process... etc.


As to evidence that magic does not exist, there very well may not be any to prove what kind does not exist. In my knowledge there is no magics that have complete and total evidence against their existance. In fact, I'm rather sure science is starting to point toward explaining its existance. Time will tell I supose, untill then the only methods of disproving are faith and beliefs and if they do not fit yours it means nothing to you.
Bikerman
Aredon wrote:
I should have been more clear, by from the earth I ment not in corrilation with a diety. All magics that are neutral so to speak, go under the catagory of wild magics, and yes, earthly magics CAN be unpredictable. Nature does not typicaly take kindly to being manipulated or controlled, willed or requested of, perhaps. I can assure you that just as when man tries to controll nature phisicaly, the same goes for any magics that stem from the earth, "she" will rebell. Also, alchemy is not recognized as a magic in my eyes, so this is discluding any herbal healing recipies, special healing technices, anything not involving a supernatural force, does not go under my 4 catagories becuase it is not magic. This is my break down of what I have personaly observed in the world. Most of the magics in wicca go under my "wild" catagory for their usual unpredictability (as demonstrated by the candle story, sorry to hear about that unfortunate event btw :/).

OK...let's disentange this a little. You are taking the stance that :
a) Magic originates with the 'earth'. I presume this is some sort of Gaiya type of philosophy ?
b) All magics are 'natural' ? What would you define as unnatural ?
c) You can assure us that nature behaves in certain ways ? Is this assurance based on experience and observation ? If so then please elaborate and give some sources. If not then I think assurances may be a strange choice of words.
d) Alchemy was the proto-chemistry field of it's time - largely during the 'dark' and middle ages. It was not regarded as magic because people genuinely did not think there was anything supernatural about it. Newton was a dabbler in alchemy as were many other learned men of the time. Once chemistry developed more rigour and became better understood and systematised, Alchemy was gradually forgotten apart from a few dreamers, some rebellious sicentists and, of course, the new age religion/spiritual questers - constantly searching for anything new or exclusive enough to offer them a chance of becomming an 'expert' and rising above their otherwise normally mundane lives as they sit around with like minded souls and discuss their new 'faith' over a cappachino, oblivious to the stiffled laughter all around them.
e) You then go on to talk about these 4 categories of magic which perked my interest for a couple of minutes. The problem is they seem awfully contrived and not really very useful, not even really categories of magic at all. Surely Dark and Light are categories of usage or intent which means my D&D Magic user could cast a fireball at a green evil dragon and that would be 'light' magic. The same fireball cast at the saintly Gold Dragon would be 'Dark' magic. Or have I misunderstoof ?
Wild magic is unpredictable but neutral ? This sounds like old Dungeons and Dragons character alignments. How did they go .... Ahh yes - Good - Neutral - Evil and then Chaos - Neutral - Law. So you could have a chaotic Good character or a Lawful Evil, or any other permutation. I always thought that was one of Gygax's better ideas and it takes it above the level of most RPGs that have a more simplistic Good vs Evil structure. Come to think of it, I had a 17th Level Magic user who was Chaotic Neutral- Aristovane, and he used to enjoy tossing elemental magic spells around :-)
This idea of dead magic is another strange concept. When exactly was the period when man all spoke the same language ? Is this some sort of fundamentalist interpretation of the Tower of Babel myth from the Bible ?
We can be pretty sure that this situation never happened since the migration of the homo and australopithecine species are fairly well accepted now and historical evidence, coupled with a knowledge of what is actually possible, would indicate that language occurred in several 'outbreaks' rather than all stemming from a single root. The chances of homo habilis developing the exact language that Australopithecines were also developing would seem to be fanciful to the point of delusion, and the geographical distances make it unlikely to the point of me not having enough digits on my calculator to do any sums on it.

e) Your personification of the Earth seems to confirm that you go along with some variant of the Geiya/Gaia theory, which is common in druidic, paganistic, and other early belief systems (arguably All of them to some extent). The basic posit being that the world and everything in it is a coherent and interdependant 'being' in it's own right. This includes the non-organic components. Fair enough..it is not a new thought but it tends to me most prevelant nowadays with various flavours of new age mystic and with regular players of role-playing games such as WarCraft and the like. I don't know of any serious academic or theorlogical research into this idea - It is, however, the most sensible idea I have uet to see here so that's a good thing. The original conccept came, I think, from the Greeks and I seem to remember that they had a Goddess with the name. They believed that the world originated from one Ultra-Chaotic individual beiing - they called it Chaos which is where the word comes from. This being gave rise to the Earth Goddess - Gaia, and the sky goddess - Ouranos. Strange how Ouranos sank into obscurity whilst Gaia, Chaos and much of the rest of greek mythology are still current in the language, although greatly changed in meaning of course.

Quote:

Also, you are correct in that earthly magics are not always unpredictable, it depends who is using them, why and how. ;) i should have been more specific and for that i apologize.

LOL...Once again the cry of the charlatan is heard in the land :-)
This type of explanation for pseudo-science and paranormal phenomena is pretty thin stuff and it's been used so often it is starting to smell mouldy. It worked before you came....honest. I had it just a minute ago..really! It doesn't work when there are sceptics in the room. The spirits are fickle and sometimes refuse to appear...blagh blah blah blah. OK.. let's try some rational approach to this. You say that magic which is predictable and reliable for one user is perhaps unpredictable and chaotic for another?
OK. That is not too hard to credit. A car is predictable to an experienced driver but chaotic and scarey to a 12 yr old having his first try.
The problem is, though, that non of these more experienced magicians who could control their magic have ever left any evidence of their magic use. Is this because they wish to remain secretive and avoid attention? Not in my experience. All the new-age mystics, spiritualists, Ouija board and crystal merchants, White witches, neo-druids - the whole lot of them (a collective noun for this group is needed....how about a 'grazing' of new-age spiritualists as an idea. Grazing seems to describe what they are doing...nibbling here and there and then moving on to the next mystical mumbo jumbo and hoping like mad it is taught by a huge black African with witch-doctor robes (it does soo impress the newvies). Anyway, my experience of many grazers leads me to conclude that the huge majority of them simply love and adore any audience they can get. They will then rant on for unfeasibly long periods given chance on their latest realisation that Bantu witch doctors actually discovered penicillin in 239BC and later discovered the cure for all ilness and eventually died of an obscyre cause and left their secrets in the jungles of......and so on....
It may be (just a suggestion of course) that the reason for the obscurity is simply that there are not, were not and never have been any magicians in the first place....just a thought...
I learned some slight of hand, juggling (5 balls/clubs) card/coin magic , and other parlour tricks, from an Entertainer friend of mine over many years. I still dust off a trick now and again for the neices and nephews amusement. We like to be amazed, even scared, sometimes. It seems built into us. The problem is that some people don't know when to let go and accept that the card isn't really up their nose, and was, in fact, palmed skillfully earlier on. Imagination is great but not when confused for reality too often.

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To the author, i'm sorry that your thread has spiraled into the proving of magic rather than the disproving, but its is rather hard to provide evidence that something we don't understand doesn't exist, it is far easier to provide evidence that it does. As already posted, untill we have solid evidence that it is false you should be open-minded to its existance.
But not so open minded that your brains leak out. BTW - it is far EASIER to show that something is wrong than the other way around. Check earlier threads on Indiction, the sun-rise problem, Popper, and refutation.
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Further, recent studies show that human's have a sort of bio-energy that emits from the skin, it is incredubly low frequency and is hightened at areas of nerve concentration. I lack links to these studies but i do recall it being on TV, if i am wrong go ahead and let me know ;). I seem to remember something about studies into faith healing and how prayer did speed up the healing process... etc.

Why does nobody ever quote a reference or source for this sort of claim? What studies ? Just because you saw it on TV does not mean there are studies going on, let alone anything to actually study. I'll happily check if there is anything to look at but I'm not sitting through some crackpot program on Big Foot or other similar myths to hear some guy tell us, with a straight face, that his thumb contains the essence and energy of a 12th century mystic who is thought to be still living somewhere in the deep and misty expanse of Wigan town centre....The diiscovery channels on satellite are using more and more of this sort of crud as the output expands and the audience doesn't. I bought my sat TV more or less purely for Geographic,, Discovery and the Documentary channels. More and more they seem to be slipping in terms of standards and judgement....Anyway, that is another story...let's continue..

Faith healing certainly has been studied - pretty extensively in fact. Now here's something - it certainly produces a greater than statistically likely rate of healing in some types of illness. Funnily enough, when drugs trials became more common in the 60s and 70s it was found that the figure happened in these as well. It is called the placebo effect and is not completely understood but is dependant on faith, emotional balance and mental factors resulting from tyhe patient thinking they are getting better and trusting the treatment.

Other than the 5-10% pklacebo variations there hasn't been a SINLGE instance of a faith healer actually healing someone. In a controlled situation (which should not be hard since they ae often already in a hospital so the environment is already partially suitable for some good experiment. It's not for lack of looking. People are looking - very serious people with very serious scientific knowledge and, in some cases, very serious wads of cash to give away to ayone who can actually show some ability in this (Randi offers a million dollars to ANYONE who can demonstrate ANY kind of psychic or paranormal abilitiey. 10 years on and the money is still waiting.
I quote from the excellent Sceptics dictionary site
http://skepdic.com/faithhealing.html
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When an alleged cure by faith healing occurs in a religious context it is usually called a miracle. Those who have investigated these claims have not found a single case that stands up to scrutiny and that can be explained only by appealing to a miracle (Mackay 1841; Rose 1968; Nolen 1974; Randi 1989; Nickell 1993; Hines 2003; Barrett 2003).

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As to evidence that magic does not exist, there very well may not be any to prove what kind does not exist. In my knowledge there is no magics that have complete and total evidence against their existance. In fact, I'm rather sure science is starting to point toward explaining its existance. Time will tell I supose, untill then the only methods of disproving are faith and beliefs and if they do not fit yours it means nothing to you.

But you are supposing that there is a phenomena there, and that science just hasn't caught up yet, wheras I propose that there is no phenomena there and science is doing just fine.
I am inspired to make a wager which could be a bit rash if there is any doubt in the matter. I will wager oyou thusly:
Show me any type of paranormal or statistically significant phenomenon that is not attributable to physical laws, and is done in a controlled environment (I can get that set up if required). Show me anything you like. Telepathy, Necromancy, Sourcery, ESP....anything you like.
If you do this simple thiong for me I will give you 700 pounds - thats around a thousand dollars. I have that because I'm saving for a new m/bike. This is now written and a legal contract so don't think I'll back out if you put any effort in...I won't, I primise. The money is yours for one demonstration of paranormal ability. Come on mr Wizard, see if you can magic my money away.....jus1 small firreball or a quick invisivility potion would do fine....OK...after the taunts what am I prepaed to bet ?
If you do I will personally pay you a thousand dollars.

There you go..in black and white - it's a legal contract. Go for it! Show me your spells magic man....

Chris
woundedhealer
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All magics that are neutral so to speak, go under the catagory of wild magics, and yes, earthly magics CAN be unpredictable. Nature does not typicaly take kindly to being manipulated or controlled, willed or requested of, perhaps. I can assure you that just as when man tries to controll nature phisicaly, the same goes for any magics that stem from the earth, "she" will rebell

I can't speak for other practicioners of magic, but I can tell you about Druids. Druids work closely with nature. We don't try and control it or manipulate it, we try and understand it. It's the same with Earth. We honor nature and Earth I have never known Earth to rebel when requests are respectfully made of her.
Perhaps the difference between your excperiences and those of mine and other Druids is that we have a relatiobship with the Earth. Instead of demanding we request, and in return we give some form of gift to Earth.

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Further, recent studies show that human's have a sort of bio-energy that emits from the skin, it is incredubly low frequency and is hightened at areas of nerve concentration.


This sounds like our aura or energy field. This is something that all living things have. This energy field can be captured on photograph using a Kirlian camera. This camera was first invented in 1939 using a camera invented by Semyon and Valentina Kirlian

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The problem is, though, that non of these more experienced magicians who could control their magic have ever left any evidence of their magic use. Is this because they wish to remain secretive and avoid attention?

First of all, you wouldn't neccessarily know if any practicioners of magic left any evidence. The people I know who have abilities do not court attention, and I certainly don't. We don't go bragging about what we do, it isn't our way. We aren't interested in exploiting our gifts to make money .
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You say that magic which is predictable and reliable for one user is perhaps unpredictable and chaotic for another?

I believe there is a simple explanation for this. We live in an age which demands immediate results. People, mainly I think teenage girls, buy a book on magic and spells and think they can just read it through and perform their spells. It doesn't work like that. It takes a lot of time, study and practice to do magic.
Aredon
Chris,
I understand the majority of your arguement, and where I understand your opinion, I feel you took several parts of my statement and twisted them for your own purposes. The first and foremost being where you took "all magics THAT are natural" and removed the "THAT" to form a completely different sentence with which to use and exploit. Whether or not this was your intention I do not know. Also, all that was posted was my own personal analysis under the assumtion that magic is real. It was in no way related to "D&D" (which by the way I have only heard very little about, understand almost nothing from, and have never seen or played), those catagories were based on my "data" from various religions. It was my way of breaking it down to be looked at, and im sorry if it doesn't fit your thought process, up untill now i've read all of your posts with interest, this one however was a bit to attacking for me to be respectfull of. Please be a little more open-minded than you are used to when dealing with other people's beliefs. Can you prove EVERYTHING in the universe with science? Can you disprove the existance of magic and or things you cannot explain? No? Then by standard process, you cannot refute its existance, some would say that you must assume it exists unless proven against, furthermore, heres your flippin links (that you could have easily looked up upon hearing about the articles. There are many many more I simply said I remember hearing about them, the direct attack was unessisary.

http://www.csicop.org/articles/20010810-prayer/#harris
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=98042999&dopt=Abstract
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/faith.html

Do these prove anything? Not realy becuase most of them are debates and or debated over. Just as anything that science didn't comprehend had been.

Chris, where would we be if the man who thought up the existance of microscopic organisms wasn't finaly proven? He was laughed at by the scientific community! You have no evidence that supernatural forces in the world do not exist.

Now then for things science is yet to explain at all or completely (as requested, though incredubly rude and jokeingly.)
First i will request that you read a few of the books reguarding Black Holes and how the forces within them do not obey the laws of science. For instance: The event horizon, we view as a ring of light (sometimes), how can this be if blackhole's gravity is stronger than the speed of light?
Also among the things science is yet to explain is Light itself, particles or waves? Science selectively desides which format to use to explain light's behavure.
To go farther, darkmatter is not explained by science yet, niether is radiation fully understood. Also, the "anti-gravitational" forces thought to be causing the universes expance, no evidence of them either.

Do not come to me and claim science is perfect when you know full well it is yet to explain everything, nor will it, ever. Becuase there will always be something that they can't explain yet. Science cannot be perfect, by its very nature it is a series of corrected mistakes. You predict something will happen, it doesnt you try to say why but turn out to be wrong several times before you are correct. (Example: Friction, first it was thought that all objects remain at rest, then we grew from there, and yet, we have no idea what actualy causes friction.)

Once again however this thread's original intention was to refute the existance of magic. If you have such evidence please post it, leave the flaming to the less open-minded, you are above that Chris.[list=][/list]
Bikerman
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Chris,
I understand the majority of your arguement, and where I understand your opinion, I feel you took several parts of my statement and twisted them for your own purposes.

If that is the case I certainly apologise. ...hang on.....OK I've
just scanned back and I agree - I must have been in a funny mood when I wrote it (I think I know why - I was still smarting from another post and made this reply whilst still annoyed. I apologise for the tone - you are quite right, it was not deserved. I'll annotate the rest where I think you have genuinely misunderstood me because some of my post was genuinely meant even though it may look sarcastic.
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The first and foremost being where you took "all magics THAT are natural" and removed the "THAT" to form a completely different sentence with which to use and exploit. Whether or not this was your intention I do not know.


No, not at all and I'm sorry it came across like that. I was just wondering whether, like some, you categorise human created things as natural or not
Otherwise the distinction has no real meaning unless one presupposes a 'non-natural' comparator. My intention was to see what the corresponding 'non natural' was referring to not to make a point
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Also, all that was posted was my own personal analysis under the assumtion that magic is real. It was in no way related to "D&D" (which by the way I have only heard very little about, understand almost nothing from, and have never seen or played), those catagories were based on my "data" from various religions. It was my way of breaking it down to be looked at, and im sorry if it doesn't fit your thought process, up untill now i've read all of your posts with interest, this one however was a bit to attacking for me to be respectfull of.

Again I must apologise then. My intent was not sarcastic sneering here, it was a genuine fond recollection of many student days playing the game with a bunch of other geeks and I was serious about the neutral-evil and other categories of player - it was an interesting difference in the game (games are normally much more black-white good-evil. This whole passage should be read as if you were a middle aged guy reminiscing about student days, not an extended attack. The genuine questions were the dark/light point - that it a type of use rather then object isn't it? The other real point of question was the dead magic bit...I did mean that seriously.
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Please be a little more open-minded than you are used to when dealing with other people's beliefs. Can you prove EVERYTHING in the universe with science? Can you disprove the existance of magic and or things you cannot explain? No? Then by standard process, you cannot refute its existance, some would say that you must assume it exists unless proven against, furthermore, heres your flippin links (that you could have easily looked up upon hearing about the articles. There are many many more I simply said I remember hearing about them, the direct attack was unessisary


OK..first the bad news.
No, I can't be more open minded for beliefs, as that idea seems to me to be unreasonable. I know we are supposed to treat religious convictions with special respect and care, but why? Its fine for me to have a go at your politics, your taste in music/clothes/men/women whatever, but the issue of faith is different. Well, sorry, but I refuse to buy into that. On the other hand, I don't normally go out of my way to be over-offensive most times either - I just see faith as something to be treated in the same type of way as I would your politics or similar trait/characteristic/choice.

NOW. can I prove the universe with science? Nope. For some good reasons. Firstly I'm no scientist and certainly not able to go into very deep theory in physics or other natural sciences. I know a bit more than average I think but I'm no physicist.
Second science doesn't really work that way. You can never prove ANYTHING in the way you mean. That, again, is a genuine and serious point. In fact the thing is known as the problem of Induction and occupied philosophers for a long period. Popper's solution was eventually adopted (falsify rather than prove) so science works by trying to disprove things rather than the other way around. It is a genuine and important point.
What physics CAN do is to provide an accurate and tested model for just about everything in the inorganic world of matter and forces (humans and even animals are generally much more complex systems than physical science systems like galaxies, particles and the rest.).

Now to
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Then by standard process, you cannot refute its existance, some would say that you must assume it exists unless proven against


No. That is not standard process of any kind that I know. There are a whole plethora of things which it is impossible to refute. That, in fact, is one major distinction which makes them metaphysics or pseudo-science as opposed to science. If it can't be refuted then it isn't really science, and I certainly do not have to accept it exists. If this were the case I would have to accept that several thousand deities existed at least.

On the links issue - I was making a general gripe not a specific criticism. I am more used to posting at Elmhurst science and if you don't reference something there then you get some stick. Here seems to be opposite.
What do the links prove? I would say that the Harris Tessman debate was a turkey shoot for the Harris and Tessman was out of his depth. The other two: 1 is, as it says, probably placebo and the other is fairly sceptical.
Quote:


Chris, where would we be if the man who thought up the existence of microscopic organisms wasn't finaly proven? He was laughed at by the scientific community! You have no evidence that supernatural forces in the world do not exist.

No. I have no proof that pixies and faeries don't exist either. The point is that just because I cannot prove they do not exist does not mean that science is somehow lacking simply BECAUSE it cannot prove they don't exist. That presupposes that they DO exist.
Quote:
Quote:

Now then for things science is yet to explain at all or completely (as requested, though incredubly rude and jokeingly.)
First i will request that you read a few of the books reguarding Black Holes and how the forces within them do not obey the laws of science. For instance: The event horizon, we view as a ring of light (sometimes), how can this be if blackhole's gravity is stronger than the speed of light?
Also among the things science is yet to explain is Light itself, particles or waves? Science selectively desides which format to use to explain light's behavure.


I have several papers and documents on black holes. The forces obey physical laws just fine. The event horizon is understood - an explanation can be found here
http://archive.ncsa.uiuc.edu/Cyberia/NumRel/BlackHoleAnat.html
Quote:


To go farther, darkmatter is not explained by science yet, niether is radiation fully understood. Also, the "anti-gravitational" forces thought to be causing the universes expance, no evidence of them either.


Dark matter is just a name for matter we cannot see. It is not mysterious or inexplicable at all. I suspect you may be thinking about dark energy. The EM radiation spectrum is pretty well nailed down nowadays.
The anti-grav force would be dark energy, the cosmological constant or, in later theories Quintessence. The latest hypothesis explain it in terms of string (11-D_ theory but yes, there is no current agreement on Dark Energy, for sure. This is still frontier physics. There is plenty of evidence that it exists and it is possible to have a stab at the value. The major evidence is the Cosmic Microwave Background survey results...
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Do not come to me and claim science is perfect when you know full well it is yet to explain everything, nor will it, ever. Becuase there will always be something that they can't explain yet. Science cannot be perfect, by its very nature it is a series of corrected mistakes. You predict something will happen, it doesnt you try to say why but turn out to be wrong several times before you are correct. (Example: Friction, first it was thought that all objects remain at rest, then we grew from there, and yet, we have no idea what actualy causes friction.)

That is why I made a point earlier of explaining the refute rather than prove distinction. Science does not work at all like your picture. The series of corrected mistakes description is not too bad but the idea of scientists hopefully predicting things and waiting to see, well that doesn't really happen much at all. Occasionally a test will become possible for a previously un-testable hypothesis (like happened with relativity many years after the theory). This is often because technology has advanced.
There are two basic descriptions which apply and you can take your pick. The logical positivists Popper is not really one but can be studied as an example of the basic idea, and the revolutionists like Kuhn. I'll give a link to each and you can decide for yourself.

http://www.des.emory.edu/mfp/kuhnsyn.html
http://www.eeng.dcu.ie/~tkpw/
On friction we have
http://www.physics247.com/glossary/friction.shtml
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/06/990603163257.htm

I would never say science is perfect. I would never even use words like truth and certain in this regard because science is a map of reality and the map is never the territory.
That is not the point, though.
The point is that science has a coherent and largely well understood picture of more or less everything. Some of it is not understood as some levels but all if it is predictable measurable and therefore refutable. Quantum theory works. Relativity works. They don't yet fit together, true, but they do work and time and time again this can be shown.

Any psi or magic phenomena are not just an unknown edge of science waiting for discovery. The current models tell us what is and is not feasible within the model Psi and Magic are not so they would require major rewriting of theory which we know works.
That is the point. And it would be foolish top even contemplate such a thing until some real evidence comes along that it is necessary.

My criticisms of the charlatan cry were intended as a general observation and not to offend you personally. I do, however, stand by the basic point. My comments on magic etc were genuine but my challenge at the end was I thought obviously a spoof and I certainly did not intend it to be taken too seriously.

I hope that ay least makes you feel a bit less got at.
I do stand by the main points I have raised but there was no excuse for being so rude.

Regards
Chris
Aredon
Heh, to be honest I'm not used to being apologized to, typicaly people re-flame a person. Should have remembered you are usualy above that. Wink

Quote:
Any psi or magic phenomena are not just an unknown edge of science waiting for discovery. The current models tell us what is and is not feasible within the model Psi and Magic are not so they would require major rewriting of theory which we know works.
That is the point. And it would be foolish top even contemplate such a thing until some real evidence comes along that it is necessary.


Is my beliefe almost exactly, that science is begining to explain some phenomena that was once reguarded as "magic", but the question is, when science explains things such as faith healing... will it still be magic? Or just known fact?

And about the black holes, my refrence was slightly outdated, I relized that about an hour after my post. I apologize for that. Rolling Eyes

Reguarding friction, I was under the impression science understood almost everything about it, but there are only theories as to why it happens. (I believe one of my teachers told me this... perhaps SHE is outdated? hehe)
woundedhealer
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Is my beliefe almost exactly, that science is begining to explain some phenomena that was once reguarded as "magic", but the question is, when science explains things such as faith healing... will it still be magic? Or just known fact?

Magnets were once thought to be magic, until science proved otherwise, so the answer to your question has to be it will no longer be magic. Let's hope scientists don't prove too much too soon. We need magic in our lives. Incidentely, the word occult means 'hidden knowledge', so as phenomina is proved through science it will no longer be hidden.
Bikerman
Aredon wrote:
Heh, to be honest I'm not used to being apologized to, typicaly people re-flame a person. Should have remembered you are usualy above that. Wink

I try to be Wink
Quote:

Is my beliefe almost exactly, that science is begining to explain some phenomena that was once reguarded as "magic", but the question is, when science explains things such as faith healing... will it still be magic? Or just known fact?

My point goes a bit further I think. I don't think that science can explain psi without major reversals and fundamental changes in basic theory which would fundamentally change what we know at almost every level. don't see that happening is my real point.
Quote:

And about the black holes, my refrence was slightly outdated, I relized that about an hour after my post. I apologize for that. Rolling Eyes

No problem - it was a problem a while ago for sure. There are many outstanding issues in science but the point is that it all holds together at the moment under the basic two theories - Relativity and Quantum Mechanics. Psi phenomena would seem to breech the first and blow the second apart.
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Reguarding friction, I was under the impression science understood almost everything about it, but there are only theories as to why it happens. (I believe one of my teachers told me this... perhaps SHE is outdated? hehe)

This is a crucial general point in science and bears re-stating (I frequently get on my hobby-horse over this very issue).
Science has hypothesis and theory. Nothing else...no 'truth' or 'certainly correct' or 'right'. Theory is what we call the best current model and hypothesis is what we call a potential theory before it has been through peer-review and been experimentally checked out. In a real sense, therefore, there ARE only theories in science, and saying 'only theory' means nothing.

Regards
Chris
indeedwrestling
woundedhealer wrote:
This sounds like our aura or energy field. This is something that all living things have. This energy field can be captured on photograph using a Kirlian camera. This camera was first invented in 1939 using a camera invented by Semyon and Valentina Kirlian


I'd just like to talk a little bit about the use of Kirlian photography. There are various groups around the world - both religious and secular organizations - which employ K.P. as it is called in the field. I've heard rumors that suggest everyone from executives at Crude Oil companies such as Exxon and Texaco ranging down to local community gatherings of Kabalists in Northwest England. However, as a noted skeptic in the field, I have to ask the three basic questions we address towards any form of psedu-science:

* Does this have any predictive potential? (i.e. does it really tell us anything that corresponds to anything else?)

* Can results be proven to be independent of analysis? (i.e. can the results be evaluated in a quantative manner or does it become purely subjective depending on the anaylst)

* Can any of the results be repeated in a lab. setting? (i.e. does it meet the criteria for using the scientific method?)

Sadly, K.P. has been shown not to satisfy any of these questions. (Well, I guess it satisfies them since it's wholly psedu-science.)

The most common use of Kirilan Photography: having tourists pay money to get their picture taken with it at famous hotspots like Salem, MA.
Aredon
Perhaps some day, assuming it is real, perhaps a practical application can be found for it. Cool A world in which both humanity and its technology are very advanced.. would be quite the site to see.

You are right though, Psi and K.P. have no real way of being tested in a closed enviroment. Just like faith healing, no real studies can be done becuase how do you know no one else is praying for them in the entire world? It's currently impossible to test without a shadow of doubt. Which leaves it, once again, in the catagory of the supernatural or "magic". Nuetral in our understanding, impossible to prove or disprove. Rolling Eyes
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