I had considered the practise of tithing consigned to the history books, but perhaps I'm just up against a cultural difference here.
I am an atheist, as close as any one label fits, and the only church I have any real experience of is the Church of England, which I've grown up with, albeit not as a member.
None of the Anglicans I know tithe money to the church... but in a conversation with an American Baptist I know... they have recently started work - a short term, part time summer job. They're a full time student outside the academic holidays. Their mother is trying to convince them to tithe a percentage of their meagre and greatly needed earnings to the church.
Frihosters - do you tithe? If you do, which church do you tithe to?
Another thing that came up in that same conversation... the mother in question does pay tithes. But she does not attend church. She hasn't since Easter 2005. It seems to me as though she's paying tithes to alleviate some kind of religious guilt... which seems to basically amount to the antiquated and frankly shady practise of selling indulgences...
This is a difficult topic here in Austria where I live, I couldn't believe it when I knew that in here you actually get a Bill from the "church" they know how much you earn and then they take certain percentage from it. I questioned a couple of people about this and they just keep doing it because of the society gossip. I respect them and if there is somebody in this comunity that do so is fine I hope not to hurt feelings but for me is just amazing that at this point of the history people still do that and don't even question it. My grand parents did, my parents do I do, I think this is the logic for them. I am sorry but it make even less sense now when the catholicism is in such crisis, the people don't believe as much as before. Where I am from, Colombia, you just share when you go to mass, somebody pass by with a nice bag and if you want you just give what you want and that's it. But in here if you don't pay to the church you cannot be baptized neither buried........ Sorry Austrian people but I don't believe you should pay for faith.
I'm not really religious (like most young people in America), but I think I would probably give money regularly to my church in some fashion if I was.
To be truly religious means to believe that Jesus (for example) is all-important. Your goal in life should be to glorify Jesus (or whatever). In fact, you shouldn't be so interested in getting a high-paying job as a lawyer or whatever because the life you live on earth is only a prelude to your afterlife with Jesus. St. Augustine even said it was sinful to place to much care on earthly matters such as weather you'll get into Harvard, or get a good job. It doesn't matter. The afterlife is what is important.
But of course, most people cannot fully devote themselves to Jesus beacause of human weakness, so we can try to reconcile that by giving money to the institutions that help bring us closer to Jesus (or whatever).
I live in the small country, and believe in god. Our society is liberal about almost everithing. I think that in situation when a person comes to Bulgarian church and purposes the certain amout of his salary every month his tithe will be rejected. I and mine family pray and give money in and for the church but we do it from our hearts and for our believe and maybe this is the most important.
I think that everyone must give if he or she wants. And is better if you giving from your hearth.
I can accept that the very religious may see it as an honour to donate money to the church. I may not LIKE it, in fact I have some intensely cynical views on the motivations of the church as a whole on topics like that. But I can accept that it does make people feel better, and frankly they can do what they like. It's not hurting anyone.
The issue here is someone who does NOT believe God exists, being essentially forced by means of emotional blackmail to donate the first money they've actually made as an adult - money that will help DRASTICALLY with her college course, to an institution she doesn't believe in. That IS hurting someone.
And is monetary donation to a God you never worship really enough of a sop to get you into heaven? Is it really different to buying Indulgences?
| Subsonic Sound wrote: |
The issue here is someone who does NOT believe God exists, being essentially forced by means of emotional blackmail to donate the first money they've actually made as an adult - money that will help DRASTICALLY with her college course, to an institution she doesn't believe in. That IS hurting someone.
And is monetary donation to a God you never worship really enough of a sop to get you into heaven? Is it really different to buying Indulgences? |
Maybe I don't understand the basis for your question. In the US, nobody has to tithe to a church. But as a member of a church, I think you are expected to support it. Running a church requires a quite a bit of cash flow. Where do you think the money comes from?
In most of the churches I've been involved with, there are building loans, salaries (minister, staff, organist), printing, charitable operations, etc. Tithes/donations are how they get the money to do all this. And while random donations are very important, you can't plan a future based on that. You need to have some idea of what your monthly donations are going to be. When a congregation pledges a given monthly amount, the church is able to plan more effectively.
The tithe isn't meant to get you into heaven, I dont think. It's to keep the church functioning.No, ok, I suppose I was only comparing it to Indulgences in a few specific examples, and I'll admit the church doesn't always control WHY people pay. The mother in the little story I was telling pays them for what I find to be quite suspect reasons, but I can't blame the church for that.
My annoyance here is not in fact at the church so much as at the pressure a religious family can put on a non-religious family member. This girl is terrified to admit to her short tempered and devout mother that doesn't believe, and afraid of hurting her retired-clergy, post-stroke grandfather by letting him know that. And because of this, she may soon have to tithe earnings she desperately needs to a God she doesn't believe in.
That the even the mother in question, yet along the girl haven't attended church in a year and a half is just the rubbing the salt of irony into the wound.
| Subsonic Sound wrote: |
My annoyance here is not in fact at the church so much as at the pressure a religious family can put on a non-religious family member. This girl is terrified to admit to her short tempered and devout mother that doesn't believe, and afraid of hurting her retired-clergy, post-stroke grandfather by letting him know that. And because of this, she may soon have to tithe earnings she desperately needs to a God she doesn't believe in.
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Yeah, that is not a good situation. Personally, I think you should give what you are able and willing to the church you believe in. But when family is innvolved...well, what can you do? It's easy to say she should stand up to her Mom and family, but that is not an easy thing to do.This sounds like a very messed up situation. Looking from your friend’s point of view it seems unfair and unreasonable of her mother wanting her to part with her hard earned cash. Her mother has probably not explained the reason for tithing and why she thinks her daughter should tithe. A few different scenarios might be the case here. 1. She herself doesn’t know why she’s tithing; she only does it out of guilt (as you mentioned) and is trying to buy some redemption. 2. She knows why she tithes according to popular church culture which is based on old testament practices and it’s used in the way mentioned by Hobo to pay church bills. 3. She has seen the principal of sowing and reaping in action but the communication between her and her daughter has deteriorated so that she finds it difficult to articulate to her what the benefits of charity are.
If you could ask your friend to ask her mother to give her a reason why she should pay a tithe they might be able to clear the air. Being forced to do anything to or in a church is very destructive to the perception that there is free will to choose how you want to experience life.
I give to my church (catholic) sometimes but I am usually broke. If I have alot of money I would "splurge" and give 5 or 10 dollars. I do not do it out of guilt. I do it because I believe that someone in need will benefit from it. FYI... you do not have to be a religious person to help people out... wether you believe in God or not, your financial giving will most likely help someone - unless you are pessimistic about churches (I have had many arguments with my atheists friend about the church but I think he doesnt believe in God because it is more convenient to do what he wants, that is imorral things like adultry or lie to people, without a guilty conscious, LOL)
What I like about my church is they don't put as much of an emphasis on offerings and tithing as many other churches. The baskets are simply passed around, you give or don't give, and that's the end of it.
None of those "The Lord will bless you if you give us all of your money" or things of that nature.
But yes, I tithe, it's usually a miniscule amount, but I'm only 16 (and it usually comes from my mother 
). I tithe to the Roman Catholic Church. If a person pays tithes or not is a personal decision. The Bible says that the Lord loves a "cheerful giver". If your friend doesn't feel like he needs to give, then he shouldn't. Wheither I do or not has no bearing on this topic. I do feel that a person should if he/she feels lead to though. It should be something you want to do, not something you have to do.
Yes, tithing does help the church with bills and such. It is needed. But I do agree that a person should not feel forced to do this.
I give to charities and my old church from time to time when I have money (which isn't very often) but have never actually tithed. The last church I was attending was trying to get people to tithe more, ran sermons on it for a couple of weeks. After only being there for a month and change they approached me about tithing, without even being a member. I told them that if they get me a copy of the budget I would try and move some financial stuff around and see what I could do. Not to surpised that I never did get a copy of the budget, and haven't even heard from the guy since, my first thought is something sketchy is going on with the budget which they wanted to avoid accountability on. If I can trust a church to be acountable then I will make an effort to give, it won't always happen, but there will be an effort.
I do indeed pay a tithe. I'm a member of the LDS church (Mormon). I'm happy with what happens with the money. There isn't any one person making a fortune off tithe, which has always been a big concern for me. Mostly, the money we get goes to helping our the people in need in our area (both members and non-members alike), helping with maintenance and upkeep of our building, and help out with living expenses of the missionaries in the area.
There are of course portions that go back to help raise money for new temples, and the like.
It's really not ever a concern for me. If I'm not able to pay tithe, there are other ways I can work through that. If I ever am short on money, the tithe that the other's in my area can help me pay my living expenses, I can shop for food from the local food stock we keep. In cases like that I can repay the generosity of others through helping out. There's always another member who needs help with something, or helping out at the canning factor, even helping to clean the church.
It's never really been a painful experience for me to pay tithe. I see where it goes and how it helps, and that helps me to feel confident.
Just a few thoughts...
Did the farmer have to pay for the sunshine?
Do any of you have to pay for the air that you breathe?
Must we pay for the rain that showers the earth?
Certainly we pay for things we use, but in actuality, all of them were created by God. We are simply the stewards of the custodians of that which God has entrusted to us.
If that be the case, do we not have a generous God who asks us only to give him 10% and allows us to keep 90%. Most real estate brokers don't even do that with their underlings. God is indeed generous.
This is pretty far from what I was originally wondering, but what the hell, I'll ask it.
What does the church do to make the rain fall?
What does my local vicar do to make the sun shine?
Now I don't personally believe that God himself has anything to do with these phenomena, but playing devil's advocate and pretending I did, surely thanks should go to God? And what's he going to do with my money?
I realise that a lot of churches do good charitable work, and I encourage charitable donation. Give your money for the good it can do to mankind, not out of gratitude for rain.
True, God doesn't need your cash (since it's printed or stamped on the stuff He created in the first place).
True that the church does not make it rain (though the prayers of the faithful have been answered by God)
True your vicar probably doesn't make the sun shine...
Yes, if you believe that God does indeed care for these things, thanks should go to God.
If the church is a place where like-minded individuals meet to give thanks to God, who gets the electric bill?
Who pays for the coffee or whatever other "worldly things" that are good to have in the church?
The larger point is that the church "should" be about spreading the message of the forgiveness of sins
through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. They should love God and love their neighbor in both word and deed.
That said, it takes human effort and money to carry out that mission. So if your "vicar" is doing nothing
to help his neighbor and wants money just to support the "church", that is not so good.
A church should be a "charitable donation", we just attach a different reason to helping our neighbor.
The philanthropic institutions say it's because we believe in the goodness of mankind and human will, etc.
A church says it's because the Lord has loved me, cared for me, protected, me, forgiven me, I will go and do likewise.
A tithe is a good starting point for a Christian, but in reality, the charity that flows from
the heart with be much more in both cash and time invested.
If you recognize everything belongs to God, tithe is a drop in the bucket for all He does for us...
Hope that helps clarify where I was going with the rain and sun...
I recall a few years back sitting in the pews of the local Catholic church feeling all spiffy at the fact that I had 50 bucks in my wallet, so knowing that 5 was not going to bother me I dropped it in the basket. For the first few moments I was thinking in my mind "Hey Everyone Look What I Did". Then on the ride home it sort of hit me, even though I gave the tithe, what was I really giving.
What I mean by that is, a tithe "one tenth" is what you give to your church family though the bible also says that you give the best of your house. In the days when the people offered up their tithes as animals or food on an altar your God would only expect the best and people would give him the first of their fold, the best. So sitting there in that car knowing that I had given nothing more than the last. I got the hint.
I am no where near as smart as most of you on this thread though I do have a personal expirience with this. I am a poor loud mouthed scrimper who through life would rather by something because it was cheap then because it was something I needed, meaning if there was a chance to save a buck I was gonna do it.
I never got "tithing" why pay, it's free to go to church, heck most people fall asleep there, they should pay us to have to listen to them. That use to be me. Though the more I read about faith and walk in my own I see the reason for a tithe. When you break it down really, how much is your own personal faith worth to you ? We pay how much for stupit things in life ? A night at the movies with your girl, going to a theme park or on a trip, spending a few hours at the mall. We blow our money all over the place and when all is said and done what do we have to show for it ?
The church through the bible asks for one tenth of what you make, also they ask for the best 10%. You are offering that to your creator, as a thank you , as a "I am appreciative for all you have given me lord". The whole fact is that you do not have to do it. They are not forcing you to do so. You do it to honor your faith, to honor your church.
Being the big mizer that I have been I broke down a few weeks ago and found that God has really been dealing with me on this. I got a decent sized check and as always with rent and bills and the toys I wanted, some new laptop or whatever my check was already spent in my mind.
I was sitting in service and I felt the need to put the money in the basket. You can imagine I thought of like 900 bazillion reasons why I shouldn't and in the end one reason I should. What do i love more, my god and faith or the money . If we belive that our faith and our god is everything all powerful, then my job is a gift from him, same as my life. So I tithed and did not look back.
Oddly enough we have not talked about something that goes hand in hand with tithing, "offerings" Your tithes or God's un enforced "requirements" though your offerings are anything that surpasses that. There are people in my church that amaze me they walk on faith that blows me over often giving 25 and 45% of their take home withouth any thought to it. Thing is also these men and woman are blessed and you can see it.
I think it is that step, who is more important the God you choose to belive in or the money in your pocket, hmm.. sorry for the rant. I just find this subject really makes me think. - X
Oh yeah and if you ever want to see a church that makes me a big tight wad when it comes to giving out money, tithe then check these guys out.
www.crossoverchurch.org
This is where I tithe. It's no use doing it unless you're truly involved and dedicated to the church. God can certainly provide money from other sources as well, but if you're actively part of a church tithing is part of it. If you never attend, I don't really see the point.
I think certain people confuse tithing with other forms of monetary donations. To "tithe" means quite literally to give 10% of your income.
I'm Catholic, and I guess sometimes we are encouraged to tithe, but usually it's less formal than that. My church recommends a certain percent to the church, another percent to charity, and several other smaller breakdowns of who they suggest giving. My sister cuts her money in half and gives 10% of that because her husband doesn't believe. My father would say that medicaid and certain other taxes can be counted as charity. When it comes down to it, it's really very little that actually goes to the Church, considering the service they provide.
Personally, I think I should start tithing, but so far I don't. It would make giving a lot easier. I never carry cash, so I just end up not giving at all. It's difficult for me to explain to my agnostic wife why we should give money to the Church.
