Peace be upon you all
i'm wondering why does jesus espacially among other prophets that god has sent was made by the people as a god instead of the real sending god?
give your opinion and answers
thank you, i hope all participate in this!
| abedalmged wrote: |
Peace be upon you all
i'm wondering why does jesus espacially among other prophets that god has sent was made by the people as a god instead of the real sending god?
give your opinion and answers
thank you, i hope all participate in this! |
I was never taught that. I was taught that he was the son of God. | S3nd K3ys wrote: |
| abedalmged wrote: | Peace be upon you all
i'm wondering why does jesus espacially among other prophets that god has sent was made by the people as a god instead of the real sending god?
give your opinion and answers
thank you, i hope all participate in this! |
I was never taught that. I was taught that he was the son of God. |
You are forgetting the doctrine of the Trinity here, thats where it gets confusing. 
| Quote: |
| The doctrine of the Trinity -- that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are each equally and eternally the one true God. |
| Sappho wrote: |
| S3nd K3ys wrote: | | abedalmged wrote: | Peace be upon you all
i'm wondering why does jesus espacially among other prophets that god has sent was made by the people as a god instead of the real sending god?
give your opinion and answers
thank you, i hope all participate in this! |
I was never taught that. I was taught that he was the son of God. |
You are forgetting the doctrine of the Trinity here, thats where it gets confusing.
| Quote: | | The doctrine of the Trinity -- that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are each equally and eternally the one true God. |
|
I had never heard that. I have, however, heard "The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. | S3nd K3ys wrote: |
| Sappho wrote: | | S3nd K3ys wrote: | | abedalmged wrote: | Peace be upon you all
i'm wondering why does jesus espacially among other prophets that god has sent was made by the people as a god instead of the real sending god?
give your opinion and answers
thank you, i hope all participate in this! |
I was never taught that. I was taught that he was the son of God. |
You are forgetting the doctrine of the Trinity here, thats where it gets confusing.
| Quote: | | The doctrine of the Trinity -- that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are each equally and eternally the one true God. |
|
I had never heard that. I have, however, heard "The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. |
Even thou i argue and fight with Christians all the time, here or in real life in that matter, you had to know the enemy to be able to do so, thats why i have to know a lot of unimportant stuff for me. 
Anyway just to throw more light into this:
| Quote: |
There is only one God; but He consists of three distinct persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
The word "trinity" is not found in Scripture. It is a word used by Christians to express the doctrine of the unity of God as consisting of three distinct Persons. This word is derived from the Greek word trias, first used by Theophilus (A.D. 168-183), or from the Latin trinitas, first used by Tertullian (A.D. 220), to express this doctrine.
The propositions involved in the doctrine are these:
1.
That God is one, and that there is but one God (Deut. 6:4; 1 Kings 8:60; Isa. 44:6; Mark 12:29, 32; John 10:30).
2.
That the Father is a distinct divine Person (hypostasis, subsistentia, persona, suppositum intellectuale), distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit.
3.
That Jesus Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit. (John 20:30-31)
4.
That the Holy Spirit is also a distinct divine Person.
Notice the use of the words "us" and "our" when the Son of God ("The Word") created Man (Gen. 1:26).
Although equal in divinity, the Father is in a position of authority or hierarchy over Jesus Christ, incarnate Son of God (John 14:28, 13:16; 1 Cor. 11:3; Phil. 2:6- . |
And honestly i can say that 90% of the Christians you will encounter aren't able to comprehend it anyway. | Sappho wrote: |
Even thou i argue and fight with Christians all the time, here or in real life in that matter, you had to know the enemy to be able to do so, thats why i have to know a lot of unimportant stuff for me.
|
You're going to be in my next quoted signature.
Why do you fight so much? Aren't you about 'peace'. The 'religion of peace' and all that? | S3nd K3ys wrote: |
| Sappho wrote: |
Even thou i argue and fight with Christians all the time, here or in real life in that matter, you had to know the enemy to be able to do so, thats why i have to know a lot of unimportant stuff for me.
|
You're going to be in my next quoted signature.
Why do you fight so much? Aren't you about 'peace'. The 'religion of peace' and all that? |
Yep i am for that "live and let live" kind of religion Problem isn't with me starting the arguing, its always them trying to bring me their ultimative truth or i dont know what they think it is. I did try to ignore, now i try to argue, believe me i do have better things to do than go around arguing with them but once they get me started... | Sappho wrote: |
| Problem isn't with me starting the arguing, its always them trying to bring me their ultimative truth |
Oh. I see.
Is that why you started this topic? So you could start more fights?? 
Do yourself a favor, start piling up the Fri$. | S3nd K3ys wrote: |
| Sappho wrote: | | Problem isn't with me starting the arguing, its always them trying to bring me their ultimative truth |
Oh. I see.
Is that why you started this topic? So you could start more fights??
Do yourself a favor, start piling up the Fri$. |
Sorry to question your ability to observe but i didn't start this topic, ROFL.
And you cannot blackmail me with your sig, its just couse i don't simply care, quote whoever or whatever you fill like to. Anyway good luck, and next time look who created the topic.
And i am apologizing to trying to explain something to you, what did i get just for providing an information about this topic. Sigh. | Sappho wrote: |
Sorry to question your ability to observe but i didn't start this topic, ROFL.
|
Doh!
I may end up in my own sig! 
| S3nd K3ys wrote: |
| Sappho wrote: |
Sorry to question your ability to observe but i didn't start this topic, ROFL.
|
Doh!
I may end up in my own sig! |
Now blackmailing yourself thats an interesting concept you got there. I wonder how it would work. | abedalmged wrote: |
Peace be upon you all
i'm wondering why does jesus espacially among other prophets that god has sent was made by the people as a god instead of the real sending god?
give your opinion and answers
thank you, i hope all participate in this! |
Salam alaykum, brother.
The Christians have no reason to make Jesus at all. I have studied the Bible. Nothing except two phrases, possibily forgerys, talk about anything remotely to the trinity. Infact Jesus says he has a god many times in the Bible, while also saying God is One (not three!) in Mark 12:29.
If you wish to know more about Christianity PM me. | Sappho wrote: |
| S3nd K3ys wrote: | | Sappho wrote: |
Sorry to question your ability to observe but i didn't start this topic, ROFL.
|
Doh!
I may end up in my own sig! |
Now blackmailing yourself thats an interesting concept you got there. I wonder how it would work. |
Like I said, it's not blackmail. Often times quotes will be good, not bad, as in nopanier's case. And if you don't pay, it's not like I'm going to kill your daughter.
loyal, you've done your homework. Nice job! | loyal wrote: |
| abedalmged wrote: | Peace be upon you all
i'm wondering why does jesus espacially among other prophets that god has sent was made by the people as a god instead of the real sending god?
give your opinion and answers
thank you, i hope all participate in this! |
Salam alaykum, brother.
The Christians have no reason to make Jesus at all. I have studied the Bible. Nothing except two phrases, possibily forgerys, talk about anything remotely to the trinity. Infact Jesus says he has a god many times in the Bible, while also saying God is One (not three!) in Mark 12:29.
If you wish to know more about Christianity PM me. |
Indeed you've done your homework but you also completely missed what i wrote, where i also quoted Mark 12:29 You are right the Trinity is hardly mentioned but more facts that are mentioned can be interpreted as a doctrine of the Trinity when taken into account together viz. my quotes.
But everyone can interpret bible as they want, thats the beauty of it, its written so well (yep i am not kidding) that you can pretty much find anything there.
| S3nd K3ys wrote: |
| Sappho wrote: | | S3nd K3ys wrote: | | Sappho wrote: |
Sorry to question your ability to observe but i didn't start this topic, ROFL.
|
Doh!
I may end up in my own sig! |
Now blackmailing yourself thats an interesting concept you got there. I wonder how it would work. |
Like I said, it's not blackmail. Often times quotes will be good, not bad, as in nopanier's case. And if you don't pay, it's not like I'm going to kill your daughter.
loyal, you've done your homework. Nice job! |
My nonexistent daughter is safe for now then.
Your sig idea is an interesting one and whats more an original one, looking forward to what we will be seeing there in the future. I think that at least on a pragmatic level Jesus was given the status of God to magnify the importance of his actions. The teachings of Jesus are pretty drastically different from some of the Old Testament, and perhaps to reflect this (and to give more weight to the changes made) Jesus was given a higher status than other prophets. If he was "only" a prophet some may see the New Testament as little more than a side-note to the Old Testament rather than a radical new way to interpret God.
It seems that if Jesus is accepted as 'son of God' or something of that nature, or actually God, then the New Testament does seem to override everything in the New Testament. If, however, you look at it like he is just another prophet, then the New Testament seems to be a slight refinement of the Old Testament, and therefore loses some of its edge as a religion.
But if it isn't a new interpretation, why a new religion? All believers in Christianity must believe that Jesus is above all other prophets to validate Christianity.
Because Jesus is the Son of God, which implies that He is part of God. The trinity is the 3 persons of God, but are all about one God. That is, God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit of God.
As Jesus said, I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, nobody comes to the Father but by Me! He is the Son of God! In the begining was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. The Word implies to Jesus. God The Father, God The Son and God The Spirit make the Holy Trinity. God is one but also three! As water is one and also three. Water is also steam and ice, yet it is the same thing. 
Friend, Jesus has already paid the price for your sins, now you can believe it and live with God, or you can choose not to believe it and suffer eternally. The choice is yours dear friend!
God never forces it on you, He has given you the choice of choosing what you want. May God enlighten to you the secrets of His kingdom!
Blessings and the love of God to you! | Whong wrote: |
| God never forces it on you, He has given you the choice of choosing what you want. |
He never forces it on you? Saying do as i say or suffer ethernal suffering is not using a force? Something like a terrorist sayin you should kill someone or he will kill your whole family, you can also choose not to do so. We did nothing to earn salvation, jesus did it for us, and through him and only him are we saved. If we do not believe, it is not god who sends us to hell, but ourselves. If we believe jesus died for our sins, and suffered in hell though he was without sin to pay for our sins, we are saved, if we choose not to, that is our choice. You cannot say that he "forces" you to, for you choose not to believe.
Peace be upon you all,
you all ppl started to talk away from that subject. it's because i said something which is not exist widely (jesus=god) you started to talk about trinity and that is the subject now. why trinity? God is one, he didn't born he doesn't have wife and sons. he is one. he is creator creates anything .
and if there were 3 gods then life universe creatures will be destroyed , do you think alot of gods who have powers unlimited powers (unlimited is not the corsoponding word...) will coexist togther????
why god sent jesus if he was a son???? and why christians belive in cross???
son of god will not be killed if existed!!!! or maybe god will not be killed by ppl weak ppl that he created??? isn't it resonaple???
another thing, god don't eat and have no need to eat in order to live ????? i'ts obvios.
these questions urged me to post this topic, i'm sorry if i made some confusing about a subject that is surrounded with alot of mystry, but we have brains we can think
cross, trinity>>> is not resonple.
beside this, i'm muslem if you don't know. i'm living with christians in nazareth. i asked them these questions and they answered a confusing mystry answers that i couldn't understand?
i said once to a christian friend : god has created adam and created heaven for him and we all know the stoy of adam and hava and how they ate the apple after the evil convinced them and god rejected him from heaven to earth and god promised adam to come back to heaven in the last day of this life if he obay god and his sons till today!! (i mean us sons of adam the first human)
during this life god sent messengers. noah, abraham,israel,.....muses,jesus and at last mohammad. there were thousands of messengers that holly books has mentioned.
so why jesus espacially has been made as a son of god or a god as others claims. he is not defferent from other messengers is all that because mirriam has borned him without a father???? but we know god is able to create humans as he created adam? so why it's strange? god created humans and god created jesus without a father. he made that for a reason that he knows or maybe to show something of his powers we know that every messenger has revealed a power of god for example god give a power to prophet jesus to cure sick ppl and brought dead to life becuase in his time ppl were intrested in medicine so god showed them the power of medicince that he have!!
prophet mohammad has brought quran and quran is a gloriuos arabic language (arabic professionals and speackers know that) in a time were arabs were intrested in their language and they made great acheivments in arabic poems and there were great poems till today they tought them selves great in arabic so god sent a greatest language than there language to show them that he is the ultimate power..... it's long to talk about this.
prophet muses came to a time that magic were applied and ppl thought there selves as magicians , so god gave the power to muses and he made things infront of the magicians them selves that only the magicians knew that this not a magic but it is a power of a god a real god so they belived in god becuase they knew there is someone above them in power....
and every prophet has came with a spacial powers to show and present to ppl that there is a god who is capable of evrything and he created them and he don't need us but we need him becuase there is heaven and hell which he promised to give heaven to ppl who follow his path and give hell to ppl who don't follow his path....
i'm tired now. but thank you ppl for replying to this topic and i hope we all got the idea of one god. i have grammar and spelling mistakes (i think there are lot of mistakes i don't want to check because i'm studying medicine now in jersualem uni and have no time, i'm hurrying to type , sorry).
leaving in peace and meeting in peace. wish you all be in peace.
| abedalmged wrote: |
Peace be upon you all
i'm wondering why does jesus espacially among other prophets that god has sent was made by the people as a god instead of the real sending god?
give your opinion and answers
thank you, i hope all participate in this! |
Because Jesus was God's Spirit in human form.how do you know that jesus is a spirit....?
by this answer you didn't use ur mind at all. you answered me what a munk has answered!
but isn't jesus a prophet? and for your knowledege God (the one god) has created the spirit it self , and he has created the life and the humans, how come jesus be a spirit of god, god is not a spirit if he was he will be limited in his powers and god has no limits in his powers???
think mate, think well!
| abedalmged wrote: |
| how do you know that jesus is a spirit....? |
How do you know that he is not? | S3nd K3ys wrote: |
| abedalmged wrote: | | how do you know that jesus is a spirit....? |
How do you know that he is not? |
Touché You have to understand by what we beleive that God is all powerful. With that in mind then God can take any form possible. My opinion is that God has
used these forms according to how we have advanced over the years. If you notice not one branch of the Trinity has been active during the same time as any other Branch. Man talked to God thru the burning bush and so on. Not until Jesus came did man no longer talk to God in that fashion. After Jesus we have not talked to God thru any method such as the burning bush. More or less we now have the Holy spirit. Thats how we feel God talking to us and we pray although people have prayed over History. Yes I believe that the three are the same person but I also beleive that they were used to go along with our progression thru out time.
Personally, i believe with an exception from a few verses, the trinity is not even mentioned, let alone supported. Infact Jesus said that OUR GOD is One (Mark 12:29)
To even say that God needs to take a new form because His old one isn't great, means you are saying God is not wise, All-Knowing, or infinite. You are saying God made a mistake when choosing form. Yes God can be a human. But can there be light and dark in the same place at the same time? Can a light switch be on an and off at the same time? Can God create a rock He cannot life? Can God create a four-sided triangle? The answers to these questions are no (on a simple glance).
Our universe works by LAWS. It is a Law that light shines. A Law that gravity exists. And so on. Our universe does not allow ANYTHING to break its Laws.
For example, it is impossible to make it light and dark at the same time, same place. Nothing can do this.
However, God is All-Powerful. He can break those Laws. At the expense of the destruction of the Laws. He is like a 3d Being trying to use 3d rules for a 2d universe. God can protect the universe, but this leads to a infinite chain of destruction and protection, which also destroys the universe.
For this reason, God WILL not be a man. But He can.
A man needs to learn. God is all-knowing.
A man is powerless. God is all-powerful.
There are many more examples.
You cannot have two conflicting powers.
i hope you understand these complex thoughts of mine . | Quote: |
| Personally, i believe with an exception from a few verses, the trinity is not even mentioned, let alone supported. Infact Jesus said that OUR GOD is One (Mark 12:29) |
You don't understand the concept that Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and God are 3 persons in ONE. Which means they are ONE. When Jesus says OUR GOD is ONE, He also refers to Himself, one God, whom Jesus is a part of - the Son of that God.
Alright, I was going to save this for a debate I am having with someone else, but this thread seems to be the right place.
First, I would like to give you a couple verses from the Bible about the Divinity of Jesus, so read on if you're interested...
1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
The "manifest in the flesh" part is referring to Jesus.
John 3:10
I and the Father are One.
This pretty much goes without explaining.
Philippians 2:5-8
5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
1 John 3:16
Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
I almost missed this one at first, but it is saying to "perceive the love of God, because he laid down his life for us" which is clearly naming Jesus God as Jesus is the one who died on the cross, laying down His life for us.
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
John 14:8-9
8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
2 Corinthians 4:4
...lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them
2 Corinthians 4:6
...to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
Hebrews 1:1-3
God...hath in these last days spoken unto us by his son...who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person...
Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
1:15 WHO IS THE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD, the firstborn* of every creature:
1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
*Firstborn is used more as a rank than to priority in time.
Colossians 2:9
For in [Jesus] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Matthew 1:23
...they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Isaiah 40:3
The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
And there's more, but I shall save it for a later date. | Quote: |
You don't understand the concept that Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and God are 3 persons in ONE. Which means they are ONE. When Jesus says OUR GOD is ONE, He also refers to Himself, one God, whom Jesus is a part of - the Son of that God.
|
Wrong. When Jesus 'the Lord OUR God is One'. He was talking about having a god. I'm pretty sure when someone says 'our God' they are talking about mine and their god. Just like Jesus did.
Then Jesus says 'is One'. Notice that Jesus never said 'three in one'? There's a difference between 'three in one' and 'one'.
It's obvious Jesus was declaring his god and our God is One not three in one.
| Quote: |
Alright, I was going to save this for a debate I am having with someone else, but this thread seems to be the right place.
First, I would like to give you a couple verses from the Bible about the Divinity of Jesus, so read on if you're interested...
|
Jesus never said he was god. I challenge you to find me a verse where Jesus said "i am god".
| Quote: |
1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
The "manifest in the flesh" part is referring to Jesus.
|
Funny how timothy said this, not Jesus.
So this verse supports a duality not a trinity. Notice how it talks about the spirit and flesh as two different things?
| Quote: |
John 3:10
I and the Father are One.
This pretty much goes without explaining.
|
Actually this has to be one of the most misunderstood verses in the entire Bible.
This verse is quoted out of context. The complete passage, starting with John 10:23, reads as follows:
"And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one."
John 10:23-30
What are they One in? In divinity? In a holy "Trinity"? No! They are one in PURPOSE. Just as no one shall pluck them out of Jesus' hand, so too shall no one pluck them out of God's hand.
Need more proof? Then read:
"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one."
John 17:20-22
Is all of mankind also part of the "Trinity"? Nope. It's obvious that they are One in purpose. The only alternative is that mankind is some sort of trinity too.
| Quote: |
Philippians 2:5-8
5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
|
So Jesus is equal to God, but it's not a crime?
That means they are two different people and Jesus is not god, ONLY IN THE FORM OF GOD.
It also means that this is a contradiction to
John 14:28
"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
| Quote: |
1 John 3:16
Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
|
Actually that verse is wrong. Jesus hesistated to die (in the Bible). He prayed THREE TIMES not to die. What sort of willing person prays not to die? Three times?!
Since the verse is wrong, we can safely say the rest of it is wrong.
| Quote: |
I almost missed this one at first, but it is saying to "perceive the love of God, because he laid down his life for us" which is clearly naming Jesus God as Jesus is the one who died on the cross, laying down His life for us.
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
|
Funny how Jesus said he had NOT come to bring peace:
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. (Matthew 10:34)
It's also funny how he's a COUNSELLOR. Now what prediction do we find in John?
John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever
This is a prophecy of the prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings upon him. Do you notice how it says ANOTHER counseller? And do you notice how Jesus IS a counseller? So we are getting another Jesus according to this verse! Yay!
Now, what is Jesus?
According to the Bible in Matthew 21:11 "And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee." This was Jesus. He was a prophet of God, He was sent like other prophets to deliver the message of his ONE and only ONE God (glory be to Him). Also, in Luke 24:19 the Bible says "And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people."
So we are getting another prophet staying with us forever? Yep. A prophet only dies when his teachings die.
| Quote: |
John 14:8-9
8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
|
Contradictions:
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him]. (John 1:1
Contradictions to John 1:18:
And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. (1 Kings 22:19)
I saw the Lord standing upon the altar...(Amos 9:1)
| Quote: |
2 Corinthians 4:4
...lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them
|
Funny how God tells the Israelities to worship Him only and not make or have ANY images at all of Him. Plus, did Jesus say this? Nope. No man has seen God. So how could the author know that Jesus looks like God?
Wait a second, how could a gospel of Jesus (book) look like God? How could a book look like God?
| Quote: |
2 Corinthians 4:6
...to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
|
Yet another problem verse.
The full verse is:
For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
Now, the author is quoting out of context. Notice how he is talking about when God said "Let light shine out of darkness"? That's what the author of this book in the Bible is twisting.
NIV (new international version bible) scholars tell us that this is about Genesis 1:3. Let's quote this:
And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
Now where does it say 'out of the darkness'? Does anyone see 'out of the darkness'? Obviously, the NIV scholars have not found anything closer, because they usually put more than one.
Now obviously this means that either the verse has been changed, or it is a different verse which does not exist.
However, let's pretend the verse IS Genesis 1:3. We still have a problem.
Now look at this:
Genesis 1:11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.
So on that day, plants were made which gave fruit. Now what does science tell us? Photosynthesis is how plants get their energy (food). What else do they say? Every single thing in the world gets their food from plants through food chains and food webs. So if everything goes all back to plants, which get its energy from the sun, where was the sun?!
Where is the sun?
Genesis 1:14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.
So if light to the earth was given on day four, AFTER PLANTS WERE MADE ON DAY THREE, how in the world did the plants get SUNLIGHT to produce fruits and seeds?
A Christian has no answer except to point to Genesis 1:3. Where God said 'let there be light'. That is the only answer to this problem (however the sun and stars were created on the fourth day! another problem).
And now the Bible is now telling us:
For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts...
That the light shines in our hearts? That has reopened the problem. Where did the plants get their light from? Nowhere. It looks like one verse destroyed another.
| Quote: |
Hebrews 1:1-3
God...hath in these last days spoken unto us by his son...who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person...
|
Actually this verse proves that Jesus is not god:
Verse 2: but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
Verse 3: The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
The son is a representation of God. Not the real thing!
Also the son is a heir. So if you a heir, it means at one point you did not own that thing. So Jesus is not the creator, because God has everything.
Also notice how Jesus will sit at the RIGHT HAND of God. That means they are two seperate beings!
| Quote: |
Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
1:15 WHO IS THE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD, the firstborn* of every creature:
1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
*Firstborn is used more as a rank than to priority in time.
|
What makes Jesus god here?
If you mean 'image of the invisible god' makes him god, then you are wrong. An image can be a virtual image. It can be an inverted image. It can be a false image. An image in the mirror is not the same thing as the real thing. If Jesus is the mirror, then he's simply reflecting God. Which makes him seperate from God, and different to Him.
| Quote: |
Colossians 2:9
For in [Jesus] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
|
The next verse says:
Verse 10: and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.
We have been given fullness? Fullness of what? Fullness of God it looks like. So neither Jesus nor we are god.
Also notice how verse nine says that ALL the FULLNESS of the God head dwells in him. So how can Jesus dwell in himself if he is divine? How can the holy spirit rest ALL of its self in Jesus, yet fill other people up too?
| Quote: |
Matthew 1:23
...they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
|
'THEY shall CALL his NAME Emmanuel'
Notice how some people, THEY, will CALL Jesus by his NAME?
Now if a man begets a son and calls him 'god', does this make him god? Nope.
Now if people call a man, god, does this make him god? Nope. (Because the people are saying it, and the people cannot always be trusted).
Also what does Emmanuel mean? God is with us. Is Jesus god? Nope.
Why? Because if Emmanuel proves Jesus is god, then the same argument proves Gabriel is god. Gabriel means 'strong god'. Is Gabriel god? Nope.
| Quote: |
Isaiah 40:3
The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
|
Where does it mention Jesus???
| Quote: |
And there's more, but I shall save it for a later date.
|
Bring me something where Jesus said 'i am god'.
Your arguments were wrong. The Qur'an is right:
[112:1] Proclaim, "He is the One and only GOD".
May God bless you. | loyal wrote: |
| To even say that God needs to take a new form because His old one isn't great, means you are saying God is not wise, All-Knowing, or infinite. You are saying God made a mistake when choosing form. Yes God can be a human. But can there be light and dark in the same place at the same time? Can a light switch be on an and off at the same time? Can God create a rock He cannot life? Can God create a four-sided triangle? The answers to these questions are no (on a simple glance). |
Actually what we're saying is that God changed how he dealt with us. That in no ways insinuates that God is not wise.Why would God need to change how He dealt with us? Unless His method was imperfect. And this means that He picked the wrong method, and is not All-Knowing, not Wise.
God does not need to change anything. Humans do.
May God bless you.
Last edited by loyal on Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
| Quote: |
| Jesus never said he was god. I challenge you to find me a verse where Jesus said "i am god" |
There are many examples, and Soulfire has given you some whether you believe them or not. Here is another:
| John 8:59 wrote: |
Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."
The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple. |
Jesus was clearly claiming to be God, using God's name for himself. | Quote: |
There are many examples, and Soulfire has given you some whether you believe them or not. Here is another:
|
Lol. Did you even read what soulfire wrote? Don't be blind and praise him just for being a christian and trying to refute me. Praise him for being loyal to God Almighty. But don't praise him blindly.
| Quote: |
John 8:59 wrote:
Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."
The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple.
Jesus was clearly claiming to be God, using God's name for himself.
|
Lol. Yet another misunderstood verse.
There are two claims here. The first is that Jesus is immortal and therefore God. This is easy to refute. Melchizedek is also immortal without beginning or end.
The second is that Jesus used the word 'YHWH' for himself. This obviously isn't what Jesus said, because then the sentence does not make sense!
"truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, YHWH"
That sentence does not make sense!
However let's pretend that it does, and examine any christian's claim that Jesus supposedly called himself YHWH:
With regard to your comparison of "I am" in the verse of Exodus 3:14 with that of John 8:59, please note that in John 9:9, a beggar who was healed by prophet Jesus used these exact same words used by Jesus ("I am") to refer to himself. We read
"Some said, This is he (the beggar): others [said], He is like him: [but] he said, I am [he]."
John 9:9.
Here we have a very clear statement from the beggar that he was "implying" that he too was God Almighty. Is this not how the "translators" have chosen to translate and "interpret" such verses?. Please note that the word "he" was not uttered by this beggar. What he actually said was "I am." He used the exact same words that Jesus used. Word for word. Does this now make this beggar too the "incarnation" of God? Also notice that when the Jews asked this beggar about the identity of the one who healed him (Jesus) he replied
"And he said, 'He is a prophet.'"
John 9:17
Also, please notice how the "translators" chose to add the word "he" after the beggar's statement, but they did not chose to do so when Jesus said the exact same words.
Just because the English translation of these verses is looks like the same as the English words does not mean that the original words are the same. The first is the GREEK word eimi {i-mee'}, while the second is the HEBREW word hayah {haw-yaw}. While both can be translated into English to mean the same thing, they are in actuality two distinctly different words.
The exact same Greek word (eimi {i-mee'}) is translated as "I" in Matthew 26:22:
"And they [the disciples] were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?"
However, if we want to translate this word as "I am" when Jesus says it then we need to be honest and consistent and translate it the exact same way when the disciples say it too. In such a case, Matthew 26:22 would be translated as follows:
"And they [the disciples] were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I am?"
So, if we were to follow these translator's chosen "translation" techniques, shall we now claim that the disciples of Jesus too are God? Here we have them saying so very clearly. We have them asking Jesus in black and white "Are we God?." Is this not what they were "implying?." Should the inspiration of God be reduced to our "implications"?
When the translators have not allowed their preconceived doctrines to color their translation the result has been such faithful translations of John 8:58 as the following:
"'Truly, truly I tell you,' said Jesus, 'I have existed before Abraham was born'"
The Holy Bible Containing the Old and New Testaments, Dr. James Moffatt, John 8:58
and "Jesus said to them, 'I tell you, I existed before Abraham was born'"
The Complete Bible, an American Translation, by Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, John 8:58
In Exodus 3:4, we read that prophet Moses used this exact same term to refer to himself, however, now strangely enough, no one has ever tried to claim that Moses is God or that he was mimicking the words of God found ten verses later in the same book of Exodus. We read:
"And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here I am."
Exodus 3:4
Notice how people are driven in a chosen direction of faith through selective translation?*
As you can see, if Jesus truly is god because he mentions 'i am' in an english translation, then so is Moses, his disciples and the beggars, as they call mention 'i am'.
(http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-say/ch1.2.4.2.html used)
May God help you open your eyes. | nopaniers wrote: |
| Quote: | | Jesus never said he was god. I challenge you to find me a verse where Jesus said "i am god" |
There are many examples, and Soulfire has given you some whether you believe them or not. Here is another:
| John 8:59 wrote: |
Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."
The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple. |
Jesus was clearly claiming to be God, using God's name for himself. |
HuH? | Quote: |
| My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. |
I know you get confused easily, nopaniers, but how'd you come up with that?
BTW, you still owe me $175.00 S3ndK3ys, in the part you quote, Jesus calls God his father. He goes on to say that he knew Abraham, and Jesus calls himself "I am", the name of God. This is all in keeping with what Christians believe.
| nopaniers wrote: |
| S3ndK3ys, in the part you quote, Jesus calls God his father. He goes on to say that he knew Abraham, and Jesus calls himself "I am", the name of God. This is all in keeping with what Christians believe. |
Oh.
Cuz I thought he clearly said he was the, um... SON OF GOD. | loyal wrote: |
| Did you even read what soulfire wrote? |
Yes.
| loyal wrote: |
| Don't be blind and praise him just for being a christian and trying to refute me. Praise him for being loyal to God Almighty. |
I said that he was correct because he quoted many places in the Bible which indicate that Jesus is God.
| loyal wrote: |
| The first is that Jesus is immortal and therefore God. This is easy to refute. Melchizedek is also immortal without beginning or end. |
I agree absolutely. Being immortal does not mean that you are God. If we discover an aging gene and change it so we don't die then we're not God. We're just people who do not die.
| Quote: |
The second is that Jesus used the word 'YHWH' for himself. This obviously isn't what Jesus said, because then the sentence does not make sense!
"truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, YHWH"
That sentence does not make sense! |
It makes perfect sense, read the verses without changing them. You'll find that "I am" is written in the old testament too. Clearly you are trying to change it to a mix of languages. Why try to confuse things? Surely God delights in truth and not in confusion. It is the meaning which the words carry which is important.
Your quote indicates that this is written in Greek (and presumably Jesus spoke in Aramaic), where-as the old Testament verses are written in Hebrew. That's not an argument against the meaning, which is clear.
Tell me, in your interpretation, why to the Jews stone Jesus? If Jesus was saying something mundane (maybe you want to tell us what you think Jesus meant to have such a violent response) then it's unlikely to have a response like that.
| Quote: |
| May God help you open your eyes. |
I also pray for understanding. | Quote: |
| Cuz I thought he clearly said he was the, um... SON OF GOD. |
Yes, he did. He also said "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." | loyal wrote: |
| Lol. Yet another misunderstood verse. |
While I'm not trying to say your wrong, Have you ever considered the fact that we just look at it differently? For the most part, all Christians, look at the Bible the same way. There are some isms and sisms that make each religion different, but basically it's close. As you have been studiing the Quar'an for years, some of us have been studiing the Bible for years and feel that our interpretations are correct. We do not misunderstand the verse in question, it's just that we understand it differently than you do. | loyal wrote: |
Why would God need to change how He dealt with us? Unless His method was imperfect. And this means that He picked the wrong method, and is not All-Knowing, not Wise.
God does not need to change anything. Humans do.
May God bless you. |
You're correct, God doesn't change, He'll always be the same, but we've changed, so He's changed the way He's dealing with us. | Quote: |
I said that he was correct because he quoted many places in the Bible which indicate that Jesus is God.
|
Most of those places do not indicate Jesus is god at all. I refuted what he posted. Either show me how my rebuttal is wrong, or stop claiming that he's right.
| Quote: |
It makes perfect sense, read the verses without changing them. You'll find that "I am" is written in the old testament too. Clearly you are trying to change it to a mix of languages. Why try to confuse things? Surely God delights in truth and not in confusion. It is the meaning which the words carry which is important.
Your quote indicates that this is written in Greek (and presumably Jesus spoke in Aramaic), where-as the old Testament verses are written in Hebrew. That's not an argument against the meaning, which is clear.
|
It makes no sense whatsoever. YHWH is a phrase meaning 'i am who i am' or 'i will be who i will be'. However you only translate something depending on its status in a sentence. YHWH is a Name. You do not translate it. Stephen means crown, but everyone calls stephen by the name 'stephen'. They do not call stephen by the translation of 'crown'.
Also almost all languages are the same. I used to learn 5, and i am now learning four. That's why you can translate them. A latin sentence in english still makes sense if the word ordering in english is used.
That's why if you are right than Jesus said:
"truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, YHWH"
That sentence does not make sense!
Since God is a master of all languages, (All-Knowing), i doubt He would make a mistake. No He did not make a mistake. You just misinterpreted the verse. The verse simply says Jesus existed before Abraham.
| Quote: |
Tell me, in your interpretation, why to the Jews stone Jesus? If Jesus was saying something mundane (maybe you want to tell us what you think Jesus meant to have such a violent response) then it's unlikely to have a response like that.
|
My interpretation?! Lol. If i say "i am hungry" there's no interpretation. It's solid fact i am hungry (providing i am not lying). If i say "i existed before Abraham", i existed before Abraham (providing i am not lying). There's no inerpretation.
The Jews misunderstood alot of things Jesus said. So when Jesus said he was son of god, the Jews misunderstood and picked up stones. Jesus quickly corrected their mistake by saying: ""Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, 'I said, Ye are gods?' If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken..."
John 10:34
May God bless you.
[/img] | loyal wrote: |
| blah blah blah |
Very nice and in-depth explination. I applaud your knowledge and understanding of the Bible. I think you understand it better than many Christians. | Quote: |
Wrong. When Jesus 'the Lord OUR God is One'. He was talking about having a god. I'm pretty sure when someone says 'our God' they are talking about mine and their god. Just like Jesus did.
Then Jesus says 'is One'. Notice that Jesus never said 'three in one'? There's a difference between 'three in one' and 'one'.
It's obvious Jesus was declaring his god and our God is One not three in one. |
He was saying that God is seperate from Him, which is why he says "Our God". Because at this point, God was seperated from Jesus in Heaven, as God sent Jesus to live on Earth.
Again, they are three seperate entities all in the glory of one God.
| Quote: |
| Jesus never said he was god. I challenge you to find me a verse where Jesus said "i am god". |
If only it were so black and white. There is no verse where Jesus flat out says "I am God." But if you'd look at the multitude of verses I gave (and there's even MORE, which I will get to later) you will see that it is quite obvious.
| Quote: |
Funny how timothy said this, not Jesus.
So this verse supports a duality not a trinity. Notice how it talks about the spirit and flesh as two different things? |
Alright, the issue we are debating here is not a trinity - it is whether or not Jesus is God. If you'd like to discuss a trinity, let us start a new topic. But does it matter who said it? Not really, it's not the person who says it that is important, it's what is being said, and it's clear that the Bible says "God was manifest into flesh" which means Jesus is God.
| Quote: |
| What are they One in? In divinity? In a holy "Trinity"? No! They are one in PURPOSE. Just as no one shall pluck them out of Jesus' hand, so too shall no one pluck them out of God's hand. |
What exactly do you mean by purpose? I'm also specifically interested in a few other parts, Jesus claims in John 10:24-26 that He is the Christ. Look at this:
John 10:24-26
...If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
So, Jesus told them that He was God - the Christ, the Son of God, the Messiah, the Savior.
| Quote: |
| Is all of mankind also part of the "Trinity"? Nope. It's obvious that they are One in purpose. The only alternative is that mankind is some sort of trinity too. |
That's not the only alternative. Jesus is talking to God, wanting the people to be united under God and Christ. Jesus isn't at all making mankind part of the Trinity, He wants unity - not the division of religion we have today. He wants the entire world Christian, united just as God the Father and Jesus the Son are united.
| Quote: |
So Jesus is equal to God, but it's not a crime?
That means they are two different people and Jesus is not god, ONLY IN THE FORM OF GOD.
It also means that this is a contradiction to
John 14:28
"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. |
Yes, God is equal to Jesus, and they are two different people... But they are both God. Strange concept, I admit, and at first glance of this verse it looks like Jesus is stating that He isn't Divine, but when he says that "the Father is greater than I" it is Jesus being meek and modest, for He did not want to steal the glory from Heaven. Basically, He is respecting His Father. Christ is referring to his human nature right now, that He isn't in that perfect form as He was with God before His birth unto earth.
Perhaps you're looking at it out of context. (See the end of the post for more description on this, I wanted to move onto the next point but felt this was unfinished).
| Quote: |
Actually that verse is wrong. Jesus hesistated to die (in the Bible). He prayed THREE TIMES not to die. What sort of willing person prays not to die? Three times?!
Since the verse is wrong, we can safely say the rest of it is wrong. |
Jesus did not pray not to die. Jesus prayed 3 times to make sure that this was the will of God.
| Quote: |
| This is a prophecy of the prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings upon him. Do you notice how it says ANOTHER counseller? And do you notice how Jesus IS a counseller? So we are getting another Jesus according to this verse! Yay! |
Ever heard of Jesus' second coming? Perhaps that is the second counsellor the verse is referring to.
| Quote: |
According to the Bible in Matthew 21:11 "And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee." This was Jesus. He was a prophet of God, He was sent like other prophets to deliver the message of his ONE and only ONE God (glory be to Him). Also, in Luke 24:19 the Bible says "And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people."
So we are getting another prophet staying with us forever? Yep. A prophet only dies when his teachings die. |
Notice how it is the multitude of people talking, not anyone important. At this point in time, people do not yet know that Jesus is God, that Jesus is the Son of God. If you read it all, you see that at first people think He is a prophet, which by definition, He is, but that is not all He is.
| Quote: |
| No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him]. (John 1:1 |
Let us follow the order of the Bible. This is the beginning of Jesus' story, and at this point, nobody hath seen God, that is until Jesus tells them "He who hath seen me hath seen God".
| Quote: |
And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. (1 Kings 22:19)
I saw the Lord standing upon the altar...(Amos 9:1) |
I fail to see how these contradict anything. 1 Kings 22:19 is saying that the LORD is sitting on the throne, (whereas Lord refers to Jesus), and that all the host of heaven is standing by Him, surrounding Him.
And the Lord standing upon the altar, that contradicts nothing either.
| Quote: |
Funny how God tells the Israelities to worship Him only and not make or have ANY images at all of Him. Plus, did Jesus say this? Nope. No man has seen God. So how could the author know that Jesus looks like God?
Wait a second, how could a gospel of Jesus (book) look like God? How could a book look like God? |
Well, because Jesus is God, technically the Isrealites are able to worship Him. And besides, that command is given in the Old Testament, before Jesus' time.
Since the author of the Bible is under divine inspiration, as most Christians believe, surely He would know that this man is in the image of God. And the word "gospel" doesn't mean only book, take your blinders off, it also means teachings.
I completely missed the point of your Genesis comparison, and I fail to see how they destroy each other, but amusing nontheless. It had almost nothing to do with what I was talking about.
Again, let us stay on track.
| Quote: |
Actually this verse proves that Jesus is not god:
Verse 2: but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
Verse 3: The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
The son is a representation of God. Not the real thing!
Also the son is a heir. So if you a heir, it means at one point you did not own that thing. So Jesus is not the creator, because God has everything.
Also notice how Jesus will sit at the RIGHT HAND of God. That means they are two seperate beings! |
Um, duh! They are two different people, I could've told you that, I believe in the Trinity - they're still seperate, but all part of God. And heir also could mean just simply "the Son". I mean, if you have a Son who will inherit everything, you'd call Him an heir.
| Quote: |
| If you mean 'image of the invisible god' makes him god, then you are wrong. An image can be a virtual image. It can be an inverted image. It can be a false image. An image in the mirror is not the same thing as the real thing. If Jesus is the mirror, then he's simply reflecting God. Which makes him seperate from God, and different to Him. |
How can you just say I am "wrong." What if your interpretations of virtual image and mirror image are wrong and I am right?
| Quote: |
We have been given fullness? Fullness of what? Fullness of God it looks like. So neither Jesus nor we are god.
Also notice how verse nine says that ALL the FULLNESS of the God head dwells in him. So how can Jesus dwell in himself if he is divine? How can the holy spirit rest ALL of its self in Jesus, yet fill other people up too? |
It's saying that Jesus is full of God, and has God's spirit. It rests in Jesus, but God's love is infinite - His Spirit is infinite.
| Quote: |
'THEY shall CALL his NAME Emmanuel'
Notice how some people, THEY, will CALL Jesus by his NAME?
Now if a man begets a son and calls him 'god', does this make him god? Nope.
Now if people call a man, god, does this make him god? Nope. (Because the people are saying it, and the people cannot always be trusted).
Also what does Emmanuel mean? God is with us. Is Jesus god? Nope.
Why? Because if Emmanuel proves Jesus is god, then the same argument proves Gabriel is god. Gabriel means 'strong god'. Is Gabriel god? Nope. |
Um, an angel says they will call Him Emmanuel, which is commanded by God. Why would God lie to us and say that Jesus is God if He wasn't?
| Quote: |
| Where does it mention Jesus??? |
LORD is synonymous for Jesus.
My arguments are far from wrong. My Bible also says that there is One God, the only God - Jesus happens to be part of that God.
And let's not even get starte don the Qur'an.
Finally, let's look at some similarities and parallels between God and Christ, which describes the same Godly Divinity in Christ.
God never changes.
Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Jesus never changes.
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
God is the only Saviour.
"I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." Isaiah 43:11
To the only wise God our Saviour... Jude 1:12
God our Saviour. Titus 2:10
...we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour. I Timothy 4:10
God my Saviour. Luke 1:47
Jesus is the only Saviour.
...the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 1 John 4:14
...our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. II Peter 3:18
...God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. II Peter 1:1
...the Christ, the Saviour of the world. John 4:42
...the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. Titus 1:4
a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. Luke 2:11
Neither is there salvation in any other (than Jesus): for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
--Acts 4:12
...salvation... is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
--2 Timothy 2:10
...captain of their salvation [Jesus] perfect through sufferings.
-- Heb 2:10
[Jesus]...author of eternal salvation...
-- Heb 5:9
God created the universe and earth by Himself.
I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself. Isaiah 44:24
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Genesis 1:1
Jesus Christ created the universe and the earth.
Unto the Son he saith...Thou, LORD, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands. Hebrews 1:10
By him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth...all things were created by him, and for him. Colossians 1:16
All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. John 1:3
God is the Word.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God John 1:1
Jesus is the Word.
...the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...John 1:14
God is the first and the last.
I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he. Isaiah 41:4
Jesus is the first and the last.
Jesus said, "Fear not; I am the first and the last:" Revelation 1:17
God forgives sins.
The Lord..forgiveth all thine iniquities... Psalm 103:2-3
"Who can forgive sins but God only?" Mark 2:7
Jesus forgives sins.
Jesus...said..."Son, thy sins be forgiven thee." Mark 2:5
God is our redeemer.
Thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer.. Isaiah 63:16
Jesus redeemed us.
The great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ...gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity.. Titus 2:13-14
God is one.
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD. Deuteronomy 6:4
Jesus and God are one.
I and my Father are one. John 10:30
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...All things were made by him...He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not...And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us John 1:1, 3, 10, 14
Jesus saith...he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? John 14:9
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7
God has a Son.
The LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Psalms 2:7
Jesus is God's Son.
... [Jesus] said also that God was his Father... John 5:18
God is the Holy One
Psalms 71:22 I will also praise thee with the psaltery, even thy truth,O my God: unto thee will I sing with the harp, O thou Holy One of Israel.
Psalms 78:41 Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.
Psalms 89:18 For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.
Isaiah 10:20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
Psalms 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Messianic Psalm)
Jesus is the Holy One.
Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
3:13-14 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
13:34-35 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Only God is worshipped.
... Then saith Jesus unto him... Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Matthew 4:10
Jesus is worshipped.
While [Jesus] spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him... Matthew 9:18
And again, when [God] bringeth in the firstbegotten [Jesus] into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. Hebrews 1:6
And Thomas answered and said unto [Jesus], My Lord and my God. John 20:28
God is Messiah.
...unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder...and his name shall be called... The mighty God, The everlasting Father... Isaiah 9:6
Jesus is Messiah.
The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he. John 4:25-26
God is from everlasting.
The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved. Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting. Psalms 93:1-2
Messiah Yeshua (Jesus) is from everlasting.
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah...out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Micah 5:2
Only God is glorified.
I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another... Isaiah 42:8
God glorified Jesus.
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:5
All men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. John 5:23
But unto the Son he [God] saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Hebrews 1:8
God is 'I am'.
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. Exodus 3:14
Jesus is 'I am'.
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. John 8:58
God heals all diseases.
Bless the LORD...who healeth all thy diseases. Psalms 103:2
Jesus heals all diseases.
[Jesus] healed all that were sick. Matthew 8:16
God is the Judge of the whole earth.
O Lord God, to whom vengeance belongeth; O God, to whom vengeance belongeth, shew thyself. Lift up thyself, thou judge of the earth: render a reward to the proud. Psalms 94:1-2
[Abraham to God]...Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? Genesis 18:25
Jesus is the Judge of the whole earth.
The Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: John 5:22
God has life in Himself.
The Father hath life in himself; John 5:26
Jesus has life in Himself.
so hath [God] given to the Son to have life in himself;
In [Jesus] was life; and the life was the light of men. John 1:4
God raises the dead.
The Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; John 5:21
Jesus raises the dead.
The Son quickeneth whom he will. John 5:21
Some of the verses we've already discussed, but I'd like you to see that comparison.
Also, since you've been mentioning the Trinity, here are a few thoughts on it:
Jesus said: ‘My Father is greater (meizon) than I’ (John 14:2. But this refers to the Father’s greater position in Heaven, not superior nature. Philippians 2:5–11 states that Jesus had equality by nature with God, but voluntarily took on the lower position of a servant.
The word 'kreitton' would've been used to describe God's superiority in nature to Jesus, but it wasn't. 'Kreitton' is used to describe Jesus' superiority to the angels, which He is (Hebrews 1:4). This distinction can be illustrated by the President (or Prime Minister): He is greater upon us in position but not in nature, as he is still a human being like us.
Jesus is called ‘the firstborn of every creature’ (Colossians 1:15). However, in Jewish imagery, ‘firstborn’ means ‘having the rights and special privileges belonging to the eldest child’. It refers to pre-eminence in rank more than to priority in time. This can be shown in passages where the term ‘firstborn’ is used of the pre-eminent son who was not the eldest, e.g. Psalm 89:27, where David is called ‘firstborn’ although he was actually the youngest son. It's rank more than actual chronology.
First born does not mean 'first created', in fact, the verses after Colossians 1:15 show that Christ Himself is the creator of all things.
Jesus is Son of God. In Jewish imagery, ‘the son of’ often meant ‘of the order of’ or ‘having the very nature of’. For example, ‘sons of the prophets’ meant ‘of the order of prophets’ (1 Kings 20:35); ‘sons of the singers’ meant ‘of the order of singers’ (Nehemiah 12:2. Jesus’ Jewish contemporaries understood that He was claiming to be God, which is why they wanted to kill him for blasphemy (John 19:7).
Jesus is the ‘only-begotten Son’ (John 3:16) which means ‘unique, ‘one of a kind’. Jesus is the unique Son of God, because he is God by His very nature (see above). Believers in Him become ‘sons of God’ by adoption (Galatians 3:26–4:7).
This is shown in the human realm by Hebrews 11:17, where Isaac is called Abraham’s ‘only begotten son’. Abraham had other sons, but Isaac was the unique son of the Abrahamic Covenant (Genesis chapters 15–18, 20), born when his parents were old.
Let me end this very LONG post with this:
"...if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins."
--JESUS CHRIST, JOHN 8:24
(Edited note: It took me well over an hour to write all this - that'd dedication! Lol).
Last edited by Soulfire on Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:49 pm; edited 3 times in totalman yall really get into this
and i am a christian and proud of it
im glad to see other christians chatin too
| whiteknight wrote: |
man yall really get into this
and i am a christian and proud of it
im glad to see other christians chatin too |
You should read my post - it's quite possibly the post I am most satisfied about here at Frihost. (Post that I've created, of course). Some serious thought and time went into that.
^^Nice work, Soulfire. Having read your post (it took me some time even to do that!). I particularly like the parallels with Jesus and God.
Loyal: So if two people say the same thing in different languages do they mean different things? I don't think so. If Jesus refers to himself as "I am" then it does not matter which language he does it in. (You are way ahead of me in speaking languages, I can only speak two fluently, three very badly and am learning two more). It does not matter if I use God's name in English, or in Hebrew, German or any other language he is the same God, the creator of the universe, who deserves my praise. And we translate names. Throughout the Bible God's name is often translated, and is different in different languages. An example closer to home is that one of my friend's names is Jasmine in English and Ah Ming in Chinese.
You are skipping around, I asked you about what you thought of what Jesus said when he said "I am", and you started to quote from a second time that the Jews stoned Jesus for claiming he is God.
It is interesting that you carefully trying to leave out the verses which indicate that Jesus is God. Here is some more context:
| Quote: |
| Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." |
So Jesus is clearly claiming to be God, and this is something that the Jews fully understand:
| Quote: |
| "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God." |
So that is why they were trying to stone him: Because Jesus was claiming to be God. Jesus does not say they are wrong, but that miracles speak of who he is:
| Quote: |
| Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'? If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father. |
| Quote: |
| Nice work, Soulfire. Having read your post (it took me some time even to do that!). |