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why do christians make prophet jesus as a god?abedalmged
Peace be upon you all
i'm wondering why does jesus espacially among other prophets that god has sent was made by the people as a god instead of the real sending god? give your opinion and answers thank you, i hope all participate in this! S3nd K3ys
I was never taught that. I was taught that he was the son of God. Sappho
You are forgetting the doctrine of the Trinity here, thats where it gets confusing. 
S3nd K3ys
I had never heard that. I have, however, heard "The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. Sappho
Even thou i argue and fight with Christians all the time, here or in real life in that matter, you had to know the enemy to be able to do so, thats why i have to know a lot of unimportant stuff for me.  Anyway just to throw more light into this:
And honestly i can say that 90% of the Christians you will encounter aren't able to comprehend it anyway. S3nd K3ys
You're going to be in my next quoted signature.
Why do you fight so much? Aren't you about 'peace'. The 'religion of peace' and all that? Sappho
Yep i am for that "live and let live" kind of religion Problem isn't with me starting the arguing, its always them trying to bring me their ultimative truth or i dont know what they think it is. I did try to ignore, now i try to argue, believe me i do have better things to do than go around arguing with them but once they get me started... S3nd K3ys
Oh. I see. Is that why you started this topic? So you could start more fights?? 
Do yourself a favor, start piling up the Fri$. Sappho
Sorry to question your ability to observe but i didn't start this topic, ROFL. And you cannot blackmail me with your sig, its just couse i don't simply care, quote whoever or whatever you fill like to. Anyway good luck, and next time look who created the topic.
And i am apologizing to trying to explain something to you, what did i get just for providing an information about this topic. Sigh. S3nd K3ys
Doh! I may end up in my own sig!  Sappho
Now blackmailing yourself thats an interesting concept you got there. I wonder how it would work. loyal
Salam alaykum, brother. The Christians have no reason to make Jesus at all. I have studied the Bible. Nothing except two phrases, possibily forgerys, talk about anything remotely to the trinity. Infact Jesus says he has a god many times in the Bible, while also saying God is One (not three!) in Mark 12:29. If you wish to know more about Christianity PM me. S3nd K3ys
Like I said, it's not blackmail. Often times quotes will be good, not bad, as in nopanier's case. And if you don't pay, it's not like I'm going to kill your daughter.
loyal, you've done your homework. Nice job! Sappho
Indeed you've done your homework but you also completely missed what i wrote, where i also quoted Mark 12:29 You are right the Trinity is hardly mentioned but more facts that are mentioned can be interpreted as a doctrine of the Trinity when taken into account together viz. my quotes.
But everyone can interpret bible as they want, thats the beauty of it, its written so well (yep i am not kidding) that you can pretty much find anything there.
My nonexistent daughter is safe for now then.
Your sig idea is an interesting one and whats more an original one, looking forward to what we will be seeing there in the future. Victoly
I think that at least on a pragmatic level Jesus was given the status of God to magnify the importance of his actions. The teachings of Jesus are pretty drastically different from some of the Old Testament, and perhaps to reflect this (and to give more weight to the changes made) Jesus was given a higher status than other prophets. If he was "only" a prophet some may see the New Testament as little more than a side-note to the Old Testament rather than a radical new way to interpret God.
wombatrpgs
It seems that if Jesus is accepted as 'son of God' or something of that nature, or actually God, then the New Testament does seem to override everything in the New Testament. If, however, you look at it like he is just another prophet, then the New Testament seems to be a slight refinement of the Old Testament, and therefore loses some of its edge as a religion.
But if it isn't a new interpretation, why a new religion? All believers in Christianity must believe that Jesus is above all other prophets to validate Christianity. Soulfire
Because Jesus is the Son of God, which implies that He is part of God. The trinity is the 3 persons of God, but are all about one God. That is, God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit of God.
Whong
As Jesus said, I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, nobody comes to the Father but by Me! He is the Son of God! In the begining was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. The Word implies to Jesus. God The Father, God The Son and God The Spirit make the Holy Trinity. God is one but also three! As water is one and also three. Water is also steam and ice, yet it is the same thing.
Friend, Jesus has already paid the price for your sins, now you can believe it and live with God, or you can choose not to believe it and suffer eternally. The choice is yours dear friend!
God never forces it on you, He has given you the choice of choosing what you want. May God enlighten to you the secrets of His kingdom!
Blessings and the love of God to you! Sappho
He never forces it on you? Saying do as i say or suffer ethernal suffering is not using a force? Something like a terrorist sayin you should kill someone or he will kill your whole family, you can also choose not to do so. Mannix
We did nothing to earn salvation, jesus did it for us, and through him and only him are we saved. If we do not believe, it is not god who sends us to hell, but ourselves. If we believe jesus died for our sins, and suffered in hell though he was without sin to pay for our sins, we are saved, if we choose not to, that is our choice. You cannot say that he "forces" you to, for you choose not to believe.
abedalmged
Peace be upon you all,
you all ppl started to talk away from that subject. it's because i said something which is not exist widely (jesus=god) you started to talk about trinity and that is the subject now. why trinity? God is one, he didn't born he doesn't have wife and sons. he is one. he is creator creates anything . and if there were 3 gods then life universe creatures will be destroyed , do you think alot of gods who have powers unlimited powers (unlimited is not the corsoponding word...) will coexist togther???? why god sent jesus if he was a son???? and why christians belive in cross??? son of god will not be killed if existed!!!! or maybe god will not be killed by ppl weak ppl that he created??? isn't it resonaple??? another thing, god don't eat and have no need to eat in order to live ????? i'ts obvios. these questions urged me to post this topic, i'm sorry if i made some confusing about a subject that is surrounded with alot of mystry, but we have brains we can think cross, trinity>>> is not resonple. beside this, i'm muslem if you don't know. i'm living with christians in nazareth. i asked them these questions and they answered a confusing mystry answers that i couldn't understand? i said once to a christian friend : god has created adam and created heaven for him and we all know the stoy of adam and hava and how they ate the apple after the evil convinced them and god rejected him from heaven to earth and god promised adam to come back to heaven in the last day of this life if he obay god and his sons till today!! (i mean us sons of adam the first human) during this life god sent messengers. noah, abraham,israel,.....muses,jesus and at last mohammad. there were thousands of messengers that holly books has mentioned. so why jesus espacially has been made as a son of god or a god as others claims. he is not defferent from other messengers is all that because mirriam has borned him without a father???? but we know god is able to create humans as he created adam? so why it's strange? god created humans and god created jesus without a father. he made that for a reason that he knows or maybe to show something of his powers we know that every messenger has revealed a power of god for example god give a power to prophet jesus to cure sick ppl and brought dead to life becuase in his time ppl were intrested in medicine so god showed them the power of medicince that he have!! prophet mohammad has brought quran and quran is a gloriuos arabic language (arabic professionals and speackers know that) in a time were arabs were intrested in their language and they made great acheivments in arabic poems and there were great poems till today they tought them selves great in arabic so god sent a greatest language than there language to show them that he is the ultimate power..... it's long to talk about this. prophet muses came to a time that magic were applied and ppl thought there selves as magicians , so god gave the power to muses and he made things infront of the magicians them selves that only the magicians knew that this not a magic but it is a power of a god a real god so they belived in god becuase they knew there is someone above them in power.... and every prophet has came with a spacial powers to show and present to ppl that there is a god who is capable of evrything and he created them and he don't need us but we need him becuase there is heaven and hell which he promised to give heaven to ppl who follow his path and give hell to ppl who don't follow his path.... i'm tired now. but thank you ppl for replying to this topic and i hope we all got the idea of one god. i have grammar and spelling mistakes (i think there are lot of mistakes i don't want to check because i'm studying medicine now in jersualem uni and have no time, i'm hurrying to type , sorry). leaving in peace and meeting in peace. wish you all be in peace. livilou
Because Jesus was God's Spirit in human form. abedalmged
how do you know that jesus is a spirit....?
by this answer you didn't use ur mind at all. you answered me what a munk has answered! but isn't jesus a prophet? and for your knowledege God (the one god) has created the spirit it self , and he has created the life and the humans, how come jesus be a spirit of god, god is not a spirit if he was he will be limited in his powers and god has no limits in his powers??? think mate, think well! S3nd K3ys
How do you know that he is not? Sappho
Touché DavidkChase
You have to understand by what we beleive that God is all powerful. With that in mind then God can take any form possible. My opinion is that God has
used these forms according to how we have advanced over the years. If you notice not one branch of the Trinity has been active during the same time as any other Branch. Man talked to God thru the burning bush and so on. Not until Jesus came did man no longer talk to God in that fashion. After Jesus we have not talked to God thru any method such as the burning bush. More or less we now have the Holy spirit. Thats how we feel God talking to us and we pray although people have prayed over History. Yes I believe that the three are the same person but I also beleive that they were used to go along with our progression thru out time. loyal
Personally, i believe with an exception from a few verses, the trinity is not even mentioned, let alone supported. Infact Jesus said that OUR GOD is One (Mark 12:29)
To even say that God needs to take a new form because His old one isn't great, means you are saying God is not wise, All-Knowing, or infinite. You are saying God made a mistake when choosing form. Yes God can be a human. But can there be light and dark in the same place at the same time? Can a light switch be on an and off at the same time? Can God create a rock He cannot life? Can God create a four-sided triangle? The answers to these questions are no (on a simple glance). Our universe works by LAWS. It is a Law that light shines. A Law that gravity exists. And so on. Our universe does not allow ANYTHING to break its Laws. For example, it is impossible to make it light and dark at the same time, same place. Nothing can do this. However, God is All-Powerful. He can break those Laws. At the expense of the destruction of the Laws. He is like a 3d Being trying to use 3d rules for a 2d universe. God can protect the universe, but this leads to a infinite chain of destruction and protection, which also destroys the universe. For this reason, God WILL not be a man. But He can. A man needs to learn. God is all-knowing. A man is powerless. God is all-powerful. There are many more examples. You cannot have two conflicting powers. i hope you understand these complex thoughts of mine .Soulfire
Alright, I was going to save this for a debate I am having with someone else, but this thread seems to be the right place. First, I would like to give you a couple verses from the Bible about the Divinity of Jesus, so read on if you're interested... 1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. The "manifest in the flesh" part is referring to Jesus. John 3:10 I and the Father are One. This pretty much goes without explaining. Philippians 2:5-8 5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 1 John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. I almost missed this one at first, but it is saying to "perceive the love of God, because he laid down his life for us" which is clearly naming Jesus God as Jesus is the one who died on the cross, laying down His life for us. Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. John 14:8-9 8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? 2 Corinthians 4:4 ...lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them 2 Corinthians 4:6 ...to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. Hebrews 1:1-3 God...hath in these last days spoken unto us by his son...who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person... Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 1:15 WHO IS THE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD, the firstborn* of every creature: 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; *Firstborn is used more as a rank than to priority in time. Colossians 2:9 For in [Jesus] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Matthew 1:23 ...they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Isaiah 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. And there's more, but I shall save it for a later date. loyal
Wrong. When Jesus 'the Lord OUR God is One'. He was talking about having a god. I'm pretty sure when someone says 'our God' they are talking about mine and their god. Just like Jesus did. Then Jesus says 'is One'. Notice that Jesus never said 'three in one'? There's a difference between 'three in one' and 'one'. It's obvious Jesus was declaring his god and our God is One not three in one.
Jesus never said he was god. I challenge you to find me a verse where Jesus said "i am god".
Funny how timothy said this, not Jesus. So this verse supports a duality not a trinity. Notice how it talks about the spirit and flesh as two different things?
Actually this has to be one of the most misunderstood verses in the entire Bible. This verse is quoted out of context. The complete passage, starting with John 10:23, reads as follows: "And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one." John 10:23-30 What are they One in? In divinity? In a holy "Trinity"? No! They are one in PURPOSE. Just as no one shall pluck them out of Jesus' hand, so too shall no one pluck them out of God's hand. Need more proof? Then read: "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one." John 17:20-22 Is all of mankind also part of the "Trinity"? Nope. It's obvious that they are One in purpose. The only alternative is that mankind is some sort of trinity too.
So Jesus is equal to God, but it's not a crime? That means they are two different people and Jesus is not god, ONLY IN THE FORM OF GOD. It also means that this is a contradiction to John 14:28 "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
Actually that verse is wrong. Jesus hesistated to die (in the Bible). He prayed THREE TIMES not to die. What sort of willing person prays not to die? Three times?! Since the verse is wrong, we can safely say the rest of it is wrong.
Funny how Jesus said he had NOT come to bring peace: Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. (Matthew 10:34) It's also funny how he's a COUNSELLOR. Now what prediction do we find in John? John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever This is a prophecy of the prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings upon him. Do you notice how it says ANOTHER counseller? And do you notice how Jesus IS a counseller? So we are getting another Jesus according to this verse! Yay! Now, what is Jesus? According to the Bible in Matthew 21:11 "And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee." This was Jesus. He was a prophet of God, He was sent like other prophets to deliver the message of his ONE and only ONE God (glory be to Him). Also, in Luke 24:19 the Bible says "And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people." So we are getting another prophet staying with us forever? Yep. A prophet only dies when his teachings die.
Contradictions: No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him]. (John 1:1 
Contradictions to John 1:18: And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. (1 Kings 22:19) I saw the Lord standing upon the altar...(Amos 9:1)
Funny how God tells the Israelities to worship Him only and not make or have ANY images at all of Him. Plus, did Jesus say this? Nope. No man has seen God. So how could the author know that Jesus looks like God? Wait a second, how could a gospel of Jesus (book) look like God? How could a book look like God?
Yet another problem verse. The full verse is: For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ. Now, the author is quoting out of context. Notice how he is talking about when God said "Let light shine out of darkness"? That's what the author of this book in the Bible is twisting. NIV (new international version bible) scholars tell us that this is about Genesis 1:3. Let's quote this: And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. Now where does it say 'out of the darkness'? Does anyone see 'out of the darkness'? Obviously, the NIV scholars have not found anything closer, because they usually put more than one. Now obviously this means that either the verse has been changed, or it is a different verse which does not exist. However, let's pretend the verse IS Genesis 1:3. We still have a problem. Now look at this: Genesis 1:11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day. So on that day, plants were made which gave fruit. Now what does science tell us? Photosynthesis is how plants get their energy (food). What else do they say? Every single thing in the world gets their food from plants through food chains and food webs. So if everything goes all back to plants, which get its energy from the sun, where was the sun?! Where is the sun? Genesis 1:14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day. So if light to the earth was given on day four, AFTER PLANTS WERE MADE ON DAY THREE, how in the world did the plants get SUNLIGHT to produce fruits and seeds? A Christian has no answer except to point to Genesis 1:3. Where God said 'let there be light'. That is the only answer to this problem (however the sun and stars were created on the fourth day! another problem). And now the Bible is now telling us: For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts... That the light shines in our hearts? That has reopened the problem. Where did the plants get their light from? Nowhere. It looks like one verse destroyed another.
Actually this verse proves that Jesus is not god: Verse 2: but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. Verse 3: The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. The son is a representation of God. Not the real thing! Also the son is a heir. So if you a heir, it means at one point you did not own that thing. So Jesus is not the creator, because God has everything. Also notice how Jesus will sit at the RIGHT HAND of God. That means they are two seperate beings!
What makes Jesus god here? If you mean 'image of the invisible god' makes him god, then you are wrong. An image can be a virtual image. It can be an inverted image. It can be a false image. An image in the mirror is not the same thing as the real thing. If Jesus is the mirror, then he's simply reflecting God. Which makes him seperate from God, and different to Him.
The next verse says: Verse 10: and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. We have been given fullness? Fullness of what? Fullness of God it looks like. So neither Jesus nor we are god. Also notice how verse nine says that ALL the FULLNESS of the God head dwells in him. So how can Jesus dwell in himself if he is divine? How can the holy spirit rest ALL of its self in Jesus, yet fill other people up too?
'THEY shall CALL his NAME Emmanuel' Notice how some people, THEY, will CALL Jesus by his NAME? Now if a man begets a son and calls him 'god', does this make him god? Nope. Now if people call a man, god, does this make him god? Nope. (Because the people are saying it, and the people cannot always be trusted). Also what does Emmanuel mean? God is with us. Is Jesus god? Nope. Why? Because if Emmanuel proves Jesus is god, then the same argument proves Gabriel is god. Gabriel means 'strong god'. Is Gabriel god? Nope.
Where does it mention Jesus???
Bring me something where Jesus said 'i am god'. Your arguments were wrong. The Qur'an is right: [112:1] Proclaim, "He is the One and only GOD". May God bless you. livilou
Actually what we're saying is that God changed how he dealt with us. That in no ways insinuates that God is not wise. loyal
Why would God need to change how He dealt with us? Unless His method was imperfect. And this means that He picked the wrong method, and is not All-Knowing, not Wise.
God does not need to change anything. Humans do. May God bless you. nopaniers
There are many examples, and Soulfire has given you some whether you believe them or not. Here is another:
Jesus was clearly claiming to be God, using God's name for himself. loyal
Lol. Did you even read what soulfire wrote? Don't be blind and praise him just for being a christian and trying to refute me. Praise him for being loyal to God Almighty. But don't praise him blindly.
Lol. Yet another misunderstood verse. There are two claims here. The first is that Jesus is immortal and therefore God. This is easy to refute. Melchizedek is also immortal without beginning or end. The second is that Jesus used the word 'YHWH' for himself. This obviously isn't what Jesus said, because then the sentence does not make sense! "truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, YHWH" That sentence does not make sense! However let's pretend that it does, and examine any christian's claim that Jesus supposedly called himself YHWH: With regard to your comparison of "I am" in the verse of Exodus 3:14 with that of John 8:59, please note that in John 9:9, a beggar who was healed by prophet Jesus used these exact same words used by Jesus ("I am") to refer to himself. We read "Some said, This is he (the beggar): others [said], He is like him: [but] he said, I am [he]." John 9:9. Here we have a very clear statement from the beggar that he was "implying" that he too was God Almighty. Is this not how the "translators" have chosen to translate and "interpret" such verses?. Please note that the word "he" was not uttered by this beggar. What he actually said was "I am." He used the exact same words that Jesus used. Word for word. Does this now make this beggar too the "incarnation" of God? Also notice that when the Jews asked this beggar about the identity of the one who healed him (Jesus) he replied "And he said, 'He is a prophet.'" John 9:17 Also, please notice how the "translators" chose to add the word "he" after the beggar's statement, but they did not chose to do so when Jesus said the exact same words. Just because the English translation of these verses is looks like the same as the English words does not mean that the original words are the same. The first is the GREEK word eimi {i-mee'}, while the second is the HEBREW word hayah {haw-yaw}. While both can be translated into English to mean the same thing, they are in actuality two distinctly different words. The exact same Greek word (eimi {i-mee'}) is translated as "I" in Matthew 26:22: "And they [the disciples] were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?" However, if we want to translate this word as "I am" when Jesus says it then we need to be honest and consistent and translate it the exact same way when the disciples say it too. In such a case, Matthew 26:22 would be translated as follows: "And they [the disciples] were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I am?" So, if we were to follow these translator's chosen "translation" techniques, shall we now claim that the disciples of Jesus too are God? Here we have them saying so very clearly. We have them asking Jesus in black and white "Are we God?." Is this not what they were "implying?." Should the inspiration of God be reduced to our "implications"? When the translators have not allowed their preconceived doctrines to color their translation the result has been such faithful translations of John 8:58 as the following: "'Truly, truly I tell you,' said Jesus, 'I have existed before Abraham was born'" The Holy Bible Containing the Old and New Testaments, Dr. James Moffatt, John 8:58 and "Jesus said to them, 'I tell you, I existed before Abraham was born'" The Complete Bible, an American Translation, by Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, John 8:58 In Exodus 3:4, we read that prophet Moses used this exact same term to refer to himself, however, now strangely enough, no one has ever tried to claim that Moses is God or that he was mimicking the words of God found ten verses later in the same book of Exodus. We read: "And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here I am." Exodus 3:4 Notice how people are driven in a chosen direction of faith through selective translation?* As you can see, if Jesus truly is god because he mentions 'i am' in an english translation, then so is Moses, his disciples and the beggars, as they call mention 'i am'. (http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-say/ch1.2.4.2.html used) May God help you open your eyes. S3nd K3ys
HuH?
I know you get confused easily, nopaniers, but how'd you come up with that? BTW, you still owe me $175.00 nopaniers
S3ndK3ys, in the part you quote, Jesus calls God his father. He goes on to say that he knew Abraham, and Jesus calls himself "I am", the name of God. This is all in keeping with what Christians believe.
S3nd K3ys
Oh. Cuz I thought he clearly said he was the, um... SON OF GOD. nopaniers
Yes.
I said that he was correct because he quoted many places in the Bible which indicate that Jesus is God.
I agree absolutely. Being immortal does not mean that you are God. If we discover an aging gene and change it so we don't die then we're not God. We're just people who do not die.
It makes perfect sense, read the verses without changing them. You'll find that "I am" is written in the old testament too. Clearly you are trying to change it to a mix of languages. Why try to confuse things? Surely God delights in truth and not in confusion. It is the meaning which the words carry which is important. Your quote indicates that this is written in Greek (and presumably Jesus spoke in Aramaic), where-as the old Testament verses are written in Hebrew. That's not an argument against the meaning, which is clear. Tell me, in your interpretation, why to the Jews stone Jesus? If Jesus was saying something mundane (maybe you want to tell us what you think Jesus meant to have such a violent response) then it's unlikely to have a response like that.
I also pray for understanding. nopaniers
Yes, he did. He also said "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." livilou
While I'm not trying to say your wrong, Have you ever considered the fact that we just look at it differently? For the most part, all Christians, look at the Bible the same way. There are some isms and sisms that make each religion different, but basically it's close. As you have been studiing the Quar'an for years, some of us have been studiing the Bible for years and feel that our interpretations are correct. We do not misunderstand the verse in question, it's just that we understand it differently than you do. livilou
You're correct, God doesn't change, He'll always be the same, but we've changed, so He's changed the way He's dealing with us. loyal
Most of those places do not indicate Jesus is god at all. I refuted what he posted. Either show me how my rebuttal is wrong, or stop claiming that he's right.
It makes no sense whatsoever. YHWH is a phrase meaning 'i am who i am' or 'i will be who i will be'. However you only translate something depending on its status in a sentence. YHWH is a Name. You do not translate it. Stephen means crown, but everyone calls stephen by the name 'stephen'. They do not call stephen by the translation of 'crown'. Also almost all languages are the same. I used to learn 5, and i am now learning four. That's why you can translate them. A latin sentence in english still makes sense if the word ordering in english is used. That's why if you are right than Jesus said: "truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, YHWH" That sentence does not make sense! Since God is a master of all languages, (All-Knowing), i doubt He would make a mistake. No He did not make a mistake. You just misinterpreted the verse. The verse simply says Jesus existed before Abraham.
My interpretation?! Lol. If i say "i am hungry" there's no interpretation. It's solid fact i am hungry (providing i am not lying). If i say "i existed before Abraham", i existed before Abraham (providing i am not lying). There's no inerpretation. The Jews misunderstood alot of things Jesus said. So when Jesus said he was son of god, the Jews misunderstood and picked up stones. Jesus quickly corrected their mistake by saying: ""Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, 'I said, Ye are gods?' If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken..." John 10:34 May God bless you. [/img] S3nd K3ys
Very nice and in-depth explination. I applaud your knowledge and understanding of the Bible. I think you understand it better than many Christians. Soulfire
He was saying that God is seperate from Him, which is why he says "Our God". Because at this point, God was seperated from Jesus in Heaven, as God sent Jesus to live on Earth. Again, they are three seperate entities all in the glory of one God.
If only it were so black and white. There is no verse where Jesus flat out says "I am God." But if you'd look at the multitude of verses I gave (and there's even MORE, which I will get to later) you will see that it is quite obvious.
Alright, the issue we are debating here is not a trinity - it is whether or not Jesus is God. If you'd like to discuss a trinity, let us start a new topic. But does it matter who said it? Not really, it's not the person who says it that is important, it's what is being said, and it's clear that the Bible says "God was manifest into flesh" which means Jesus is God.
What exactly do you mean by purpose? I'm also specifically interested in a few other parts, Jesus claims in John 10:24-26 that He is the Christ. Look at this: John 10:24-26 ...If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. So, Jesus told them that He was God - the Christ, the Son of God, the Messiah, the Savior.
That's not the only alternative. Jesus is talking to God, wanting the people to be united under God and Christ. Jesus isn't at all making mankind part of the Trinity, He wants unity - not the division of religion we have today. He wants the entire world Christian, united just as God the Father and Jesus the Son are united.
Yes, God is equal to Jesus, and they are two different people... But they are both God. Strange concept, I admit, and at first glance of this verse it looks like Jesus is stating that He isn't Divine, but when he says that "the Father is greater than I" it is Jesus being meek and modest, for He did not want to steal the glory from Heaven. Basically, He is respecting His Father. Christ is referring to his human nature right now, that He isn't in that perfect form as He was with God before His birth unto earth. Perhaps you're looking at it out of context. (See the end of the post for more description on this, I wanted to move onto the next point but felt this was unfinished).
Jesus did not pray not to die. Jesus prayed 3 times to make sure that this was the will of God.
Ever heard of Jesus' second coming? Perhaps that is the second counsellor the verse is referring to.
Notice how it is the multitude of people talking, not anyone important. At this point in time, people do not yet know that Jesus is God, that Jesus is the Son of God. If you read it all, you see that at first people think He is a prophet, which by definition, He is, but that is not all He is.
Let us follow the order of the Bible. This is the beginning of Jesus' story, and at this point, nobody hath seen God, that is until Jesus tells them "He who hath seen me hath seen God".
I fail to see how these contradict anything. 1 Kings 22:19 is saying that the LORD is sitting on the throne, (whereas Lord refers to Jesus), and that all the host of heaven is standing by Him, surrounding Him. And the Lord standing upon the altar, that contradicts nothing either.
Well, because Jesus is God, technically the Isrealites are able to worship Him. And besides, that command is given in the Old Testament, before Jesus' time. Since the author of the Bible is under divine inspiration, as most Christians believe, surely He would know that this man is in the image of God. And the word "gospel" doesn't mean only book, take your blinders off, it also means teachings. I completely missed the point of your Genesis comparison, and I fail to see how they destroy each other, but amusing nontheless. It had almost nothing to do with what I was talking about. Again, let us stay on track.
Um, duh! They are two different people, I could've told you that, I believe in the Trinity - they're still seperate, but all part of God. And heir also could mean just simply "the Son". I mean, if you have a Son who will inherit everything, you'd call Him an heir.
How can you just say I am "wrong." What if your interpretations of virtual image and mirror image are wrong and I am right?
It's saying that Jesus is full of God, and has God's spirit. It rests in Jesus, but God's love is infinite - His Spirit is infinite.
Um, an angel says they will call Him Emmanuel, which is commanded by God. Why would God lie to us and say that Jesus is God if He wasn't?
LORD is synonymous for Jesus. My arguments are far from wrong. My Bible also says that there is One God, the only God - Jesus happens to be part of that God. And let's not even get starte don the Qur'an. Finally, let's look at some similarities and parallels between God and Christ, which describes the same Godly Divinity in Christ. God never changes. Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. Jesus never changes. Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. God is the only Saviour. "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." Isaiah 43:11 To the only wise God our Saviour... Jude 1:12 God our Saviour. Titus 2:10 ...we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour. I Timothy 4:10 God my Saviour. Luke 1:47 Jesus is the only Saviour. ...the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 1 John 4:14 ...our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. II Peter 3:18 ...God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. II Peter 1:1 ...the Christ, the Saviour of the world. John 4:42 ...the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. Titus 1:4 a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. Luke 2:11 Neither is there salvation in any other (than Jesus): for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. --Acts 4:12 ...salvation... is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. --2 Timothy 2:10 ...captain of their salvation [Jesus] perfect through sufferings. -- Heb 2:10 [Jesus]...author of eternal salvation... -- Heb 5:9 God created the universe and earth by Himself. I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself. Isaiah 44:24 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Genesis 1:1 Jesus Christ created the universe and the earth. Unto the Son he saith...Thou, LORD, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands. Hebrews 1:10 By him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth...all things were created by him, and for him. Colossians 1:16 All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. John 1:3 God is the Word. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God John 1:1 Jesus is the Word. ...the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...John 1:14 God is the first and the last. I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he. Isaiah 41:4 Jesus is the first and the last. Jesus said, "Fear not; I am the first and the last:" Revelation 1:17 God forgives sins. The Lord..forgiveth all thine iniquities... Psalm 103:2-3 "Who can forgive sins but God only?" Mark 2:7 Jesus forgives sins. Jesus...said..."Son, thy sins be forgiven thee." Mark 2:5 God is our redeemer. Thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer.. Isaiah 63:16 Jesus redeemed us. The great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ...gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity.. Titus 2:13-14 God is one. Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD. Deuteronomy 6:4 Jesus and God are one. I and my Father are one. John 10:30 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...All things were made by him...He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not...And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us John 1:1, 3, 10, 14 Jesus saith...he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? John 14:9 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7 God has a Son. The LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Psalms 2:7 Jesus is God's Son. ... [Jesus] said also that God was his Father... John 5:18 God is the Holy One Psalms 71:22 I will also praise thee with the psaltery, even thy truth,O my God: unto thee will I sing with the harp, O thou Holy One of Israel. Psalms 78:41 Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel. Psalms 89:18 For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king. Isaiah 10:20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth. Psalms 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Messianic Psalm) Jesus is the Holy One. Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 3:13-14 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; 13:34-35 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Only God is worshipped. ... Then saith Jesus unto him... Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Matthew 4:10 Jesus is worshipped. While [Jesus] spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him... Matthew 9:18 And again, when [God] bringeth in the firstbegotten [Jesus] into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. Hebrews 1:6 And Thomas answered and said unto [Jesus], My Lord and my God. John 20:28 God is Messiah. ...unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder...and his name shall be called... The mighty God, The everlasting Father... Isaiah 9:6 Jesus is Messiah. The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he. John 4:25-26 God is from everlasting. The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved. Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting. Psalms 93:1-2 Messiah Yeshua (Jesus) is from everlasting. But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah...out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Micah 5:2 Only God is glorified. I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another... Isaiah 42:8 God glorified Jesus. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:5 All men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. John 5:23 But unto the Son he [God] saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Hebrews 1:8 God is 'I am'. And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. Exodus 3:14 Jesus is 'I am'. Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. John 8:58 God heals all diseases. Bless the LORD...who healeth all thy diseases. Psalms 103:2 Jesus heals all diseases. [Jesus] healed all that were sick. Matthew 8:16 God is the Judge of the whole earth. O Lord God, to whom vengeance belongeth; O God, to whom vengeance belongeth, shew thyself. Lift up thyself, thou judge of the earth: render a reward to the proud. Psalms 94:1-2 [Abraham to God]...Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? Genesis 18:25 Jesus is the Judge of the whole earth. The Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: John 5:22 God has life in Himself. The Father hath life in himself; John 5:26 Jesus has life in Himself. so hath [God] given to the Son to have life in himself; In [Jesus] was life; and the life was the light of men. John 1:4 God raises the dead. The Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; John 5:21 Jesus raises the dead. The Son quickeneth whom he will. John 5:21 Some of the verses we've already discussed, but I'd like you to see that comparison. Also, since you've been mentioning the Trinity, here are a few thoughts on it: Jesus said: ‘My Father is greater (meizon) than I’ (John 14:2 . But this refers to the Father’s greater position in Heaven, not superior nature. Philippians 2:5–11 states that Jesus had equality by nature with God, but voluntarily took on the lower position of a servant.
The word 'kreitton' would've been used to describe God's superiority in nature to Jesus, but it wasn't. 'Kreitton' is used to describe Jesus' superiority to the angels, which He is (Hebrews 1:4). This distinction can be illustrated by the President (or Prime Minister): He is greater upon us in position but not in nature, as he is still a human being like us. Jesus is called ‘the firstborn of every creature’ (Colossians 1:15). However, in Jewish imagery, ‘firstborn’ means ‘having the rights and special privileges belonging to the eldest child’. It refers to pre-eminence in rank more than to priority in time. This can be shown in passages where the term ‘firstborn’ is used of the pre-eminent son who was not the eldest, e.g. Psalm 89:27, where David is called ‘firstborn’ although he was actually the youngest son. It's rank more than actual chronology. First born does not mean 'first created', in fact, the verses after Colossians 1:15 show that Christ Himself is the creator of all things. Jesus is Son of God. In Jewish imagery, ‘the son of’ often meant ‘of the order of’ or ‘having the very nature of’. For example, ‘sons of the prophets’ meant ‘of the order of prophets’ (1 Kings 20:35); ‘sons of the singers’ meant ‘of the order of singers’ (Nehemiah 12:2 . Jesus’ Jewish contemporaries understood that He was claiming to be God, which is why they wanted to kill him for blasphemy (John 19:7).
Jesus is the ‘only-begotten Son’ (John 3:16) which means ‘unique, ‘one of a kind’. Jesus is the unique Son of God, because he is God by His very nature (see above). Believers in Him become ‘sons of God’ by adoption (Galatians 3:26–4:7). This is shown in the human realm by Hebrews 11:17, where Isaac is called Abraham’s ‘only begotten son’. Abraham had other sons, but Isaac was the unique son of the Abrahamic Covenant (Genesis chapters 15–18, 20), born when his parents were old. Let me end this very LONG post with this: "...if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." --JESUS CHRIST, JOHN 8:24 (Edited note: It took me well over an hour to write all this - that'd dedication! Lol). whiteknight
man yall really get into this
and i am a christian and proud of it im glad to see other christians chatin too Soulfire
You should read my post - it's quite possibly the post I am most satisfied about here at Frihost. (Post that I've created, of course). Some serious thought and time went into that. ^^ nopaniers
Nice work, Soulfire. Having read your post (it took me some time even to do that!). I particularly like the parallels with Jesus and God.
Loyal: So if two people say the same thing in different languages do they mean different things? I don't think so. If Jesus refers to himself as "I am" then it does not matter which language he does it in. (You are way ahead of me in speaking languages, I can only speak two fluently, three very badly and am learning two more). It does not matter if I use God's name in English, or in Hebrew, German or any other language he is the same God, the creator of the universe, who deserves my praise. And we translate names. Throughout the Bible God's name is often translated, and is different in different languages. An example closer to home is that one of my friend's names is Jasmine in English and Ah Ming in Chinese. You are skipping around, I asked you about what you thought of what Jesus said when he said "I am", and you started to quote from a second time that the Jews stoned Jesus for claiming he is God. It is interesting that you carefully trying to leave out the verses which indicate that Jesus is God. Here is some more context:
So Jesus is clearly claiming to be God, and this is something that the Jews fully understand:
So that is why they were trying to stone him: Because Jesus was claiming to be God. Jesus does not say they are wrong, but that miracles speak of who he is:
Soulfire
*Phew* I'm glad somebody likes my post, I am quite satisfied with it, took me a couple hours to come up with. Keep up the good work. loyal
??? So the trinity is completely seperate? So when did Christianity become a polytheistic religion? Look man. Face facts. It says "our God is One" so obviously Jesus is saying that his God is One. Not three in one. Not five in one. Not fourty in ten. Just one.
The multitude of verses you gave were random people saying "i think Jesus is god". Or in some cases, you had misunderstood the verse. I want what Jesus said. Surely if God is Jesus. He would let us know. Or is God a forgetful guy?
Wrong. It matters very much WHO said it. If president bush starts declaring Islam 'the terriost religion', no Muslim will take a second glance. But if osma bin laden starts telling everyone about how much he despises the violence from some Muslims, every Muslim shall be listening. It's even more important in history. Did Moses really say God is an old man with a beard? Or did some random scribe write that in? It matters alot who said it. Second, you avoided my reply. The verse talks about a duality not a trinity. Therefore i declare christianity to be wrongly worshipping a trinity. It should be worshipping a duality. Obviously it's another contradiction. Trinity or duality? It's clear that Jesus said he has a god, and that God is One.
That's not what it says at all. Christ means Messiah. The people said 'tell us if you are the Messiah clearly'. Jesus did not reply clearly. However it is possible he had in the past. However he gave evidence FOR being the Messiah. He said 'the works that i do in MY FATHER'S NAME'. This is the Muslim equivalant of 'Bismillah'. This also means that Christians wrongly pray. They should pray in God's name. Not Jesus' name. Jesus never said he was god. Nor did he say it in that verse. It's talking about purpose. It's explained clearly in my post. Noone can pluck the sheep out of Jesus' hand just like noone can pluck the sheep out of God's hand. They are one in purpose, to lead believers to good.
No offence, but that's a LAME excuse. Read the passage clearly and you will find a verse that says (i write from memory): ...that THEY may be ONE, AS WE are ONE... If Jesus is talking about unity, then that removes any christian comment about the verse saying Jesus and the father are one. Because they are not one in soul/spirit/body. You have provided a reason yourself. Unity. So don't claim that it means he and God are one in a trinity.
You are making an excuse...your excuse is this: 'it looks like Jesus is stating that He isn't Divine, but when he says that "the Father is greater than I" it is Jesus being meek and modest, for He did not want to steal the glory from Heaven' So basically Jesus lied? Thanks for that. Yet another proof that Jesus cannot be god. Since when does God lie? Also is Jesus an extreme believer? He's SOOOO modest that he has to lie about his Father being greater?! Lol. Let me tell you that God does not need praise. God is All-Powerful, Absolute. He does not need Jesus lying. Admit it. Jesus is saying the father is greater than him. But then you say: 'Christ is referring to his human nature right now, that He isn't in that perfect form as He was with God before His birth unto earth.' Wrong. John 14:28 "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. Just read the verse. It says 'the Father is greater than I'. It's plain and simple. God is greater than Jesus. Why? Because Jesus is saying it. If Jesus and god are equal in divine form, then Jesus would have said 'while i'm on earth'. The sentence at the moment in john 14:28 says Jesus is lesser than the father. This means that Jesus is not god.
Perhaps you are unwilling to consider the verses' true meaning?
Jesus prayed to die. He said "let this cup pass from me". Now what's he talking about? He wants the cup of death taken away. Then he says after that God wills what He wil. He's saying in that passage that he does not want to die. Mark 14:36 "Abba, Father," he said, "everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will." The second sentence about wills, is talking about Jesus saying to God, 'don't do what i want, do what you want'. Jesus is here is recognising how wise God is. He's asking for the cup of death to be taken from him and for God to change His mind. Jesus hesistated to die (in the Bible). He prayed THREE TIMES not to die. What sort of willing person prays not to die? Three times?!
Lol! So Jesus randomly says "here's another counseller", but he's talking about himself?!! That's crazy. Nope he was talking about the prophet Muhammed, peace and blessings upon him. Infact Jesus told his disciples many times HE would return. Two different prophecies. One is about Jesus' coming, another is about a future prophet.
It seems you have contradicted yourself terribly. You said earlier in the post that it does not matter WHO said it. Now you are saying noone important is speaking. Which will it be? They think he is a prophet, which is what he is. Prophets do not turn into god.
Wrong. If Jesus is god then anyone who sees him will have seen God, WITHOUT KNOWING IT. It does not matter whether you know it or not, but it still happens. This is a contradiction.
Lord does not refer to Jesus. King David was also called Lord. I ask you to worship David, if you worship Jesus because he was called Lord. You fail to see?! Anyone can see the contradiction. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him]. And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. (1 Kings 22:19) I saw the Lord standing upon the altar...(Amos 9:1) Now, see the contradiction? No man has seen God at any time. But the guy in Amos and 1 Kings BOTH SAW GOD.
So because God said something in the Old Testament it does not count any more?! Lol that is crazy! Many of God's commands were eternal. Including, the ten commandments. Infact let's see Jesus' opinions: Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." So Jesus has not come to abolish the Law? Yep. So the ten commandments remain. Besides, Jesus is not god. You have failed to prove this.
The author is under divine inspiration? So all the scribes corrupting the text were also divinly inspired? Where in the world did you get such an idea?
It had LOTS to do with what you were talking about. I think you are pretending ignorance so you do not have to answer it. Basically, the whole Genesis thing was proving a contradiction if one of your arguments was right. I am staying on the subject. You however have completely not replyed to many of my explainings of how Jesus is not god. You keep replying to my final points.
LOL! If they are in two different seats in Heaven, where Jesus has not limited himself, then THEY ARE SEPERATE. If they are seperate, then they are NOT one. Also stop joining words together. Heir means heir. Son means son. I request you stop making excuses and examine the truth.
So since you can't respond you've told me "what if you're wrong?"...lol...
If Jesusis full of god, then so are we. Which means this does not prove Jesus is god. You did not answer my question. I said: 'So how can Jesus dwell in himself if he is divine? How can the holy spirit rest ALL of its self in Jesus, yet fill other people up too?' It does not matter if the holy spirit is infinite. It says ALL of the holy spirit rested in Jesus.
Please stop avoiding answering my questions. I said 'Funny how Jesus said he had NOT come to bring peace: Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. (Matthew 10:34)' To which you have not responded. I also said: 'Now if a man begets a son and calls him 'god', does this make him god? Nope.' A name does not mean that the person is god. If people call a man, god, does this make him god? Nope. Also where does it say Angels are commanded to call him Emmanuel? Besides, giving some God in their name does not mean they are god! You avoided this too. I gave you the example of Gabriel.
LOL! Hahahahaha!!!!! So in the middle ages, when people went to a rich man and said "your Lord, spare us some bread", the rich man was Jesus?! 1 Samuel 24 says: 7 With these words David rebuked his men and did not allow them to attack Saul. And Saul left the cave and went his way. 8 Then David went out of the cave and called out to Saul, "My lord the king!" When Saul looked behind him, David bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground. 9 He said to Saul, "Why do you listen when men say, 'David is bent on harming you'? 2 Samuel 14:4 4 When the woman from Tekoa went to the king, she fell with her face to the ground to pay him honor, and she said, "Help me, O king!" 2 Samuel 14:22 22 Joab fell with his face to the ground to pay him honor, and he blessed the king. Joab said, "Today your servant knows that he has found favor in your eyes, my lord the king, because the king has granted his servant's request." So i guess we better start worshipping all these people? Lord is a title NOT a declaration of God!
Your arguments are terribly flawed. Your Bible says God is One and Only Mark 12:29. Jesus did not say he is god.
The Qur'an is flawless. You can bring everything you wish.
You have failed to respond to my request. Where does Jesus say: "i am god"? Where does Jesus say this?
So because you could not prove Jesus is god in your others text you have to make new arguments? That hebrews verse is wrong. According to Christianity, Jesus was god, then man, then God. So he changed. Yet another mistake in the Bible then.
Jesus and God are not the only saviours. Infact: 2 Kings 13: 4 And Jehoahaz besought the LORD, and the LORD hearkened unto him: for he saw the oppression of Israel, because the king of Syria oppressed them. 5 (And the LORD gave Israel a saviour, so that they went out from under the hand of the Syrians: and the children of Israel dwelt in their tents, as beforetime. 6 Nevertheless they departed not from the sins of the house of Jeroboam, who made Israel sin, but walked therein: and there remained the grove also in Samaria.) Notice it is past tense, so no-one can claim the saviour is Jesus. 27 Therefore thou deliveredst them into the hand of their enemies, who vexed them: and in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto thee, thou heardest them from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies thou gavest them saviours, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies. Obadiah 1:21And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD's. Notice the word 'saviours' is plural.
Not sure about hebrews. it does seem to agree. however hebrews 1:6: And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world Contradiction: Jacob is God's son and firstborn: "Israel is my son, even my firstborn" Exodus 4:22. Solomon is God's son "He shall build an house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son": 2 Samuel 7:13-14. Ephraim is God's firstborn: "for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn." Jeremiah 31:9 (who is God's firstborn? Israel or Ephraim?). Adam is the son of God "Adam, which was the son of God." Luke 3:38. Well then, was Jesus the only begotten son of God? Read Psalms 2:7 "I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me (King David, King), Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.".
Wrong. 1:1 has been mistranslated many times. Read http://wings.buffalo.edu/sa/muslim/library/jesus-say/ch1.2.2.6.html
First of all, the doubts regarding Revalations are huge. Protestant founder Martin Luther considered Revelation to be "neither apostolic nor prophetic" and stated that "Christ is neither taught nor known in it" In the 9th century, it was included with the Apocalypse of Peter among "disputed" books in the Stichometry of St. Nicephorus, Patriarch of Constantinople. In the end it was included in the accepted canon, although it remains the only book of the New Testament that is not read within the Divine Liturgy of the Eastern Orthodox Church. People are not sure which John wrote it. 'Although the traditional view still has many adherences, many modern scholars believe that John the Apostle, John the Evangelist, and John of Patmos refer to three separate individuals. Certain lines of evidence suggest that John of Patmos wrote only Revelation, not the Gospel of John or the Epistles of John. For one, the author of Revelation identifies himself as "John" several times, but the author of the Gospel of John never identifies himself directly. While both works liken Jesus to a lamb, they consistently use different words for lamb — the Gospel uses amno, Revelation uses arnion. Lastly, the Gospel is written in nearly flawless Greek, but Revelation contains grammatical errors and stylistic abnormalities which indicate its author may not have been as familiar with the Greek language as the Gospel's author. Proponents of the single-author view explain these differences in various ways, including but not limited to factoring in underlying motifs and purposes, authorial target audience and the author's collaboration with and/or utilization of different scribes'. Even if Jesus claimed to be the "Alpha and Omega", which by the way, this claim is only found in the book of Revelation in the entire NT, it still wouldn't prove that he is the Creator of the Universe. Unlike the other Books and Gospels that contain repeated/similar quotes from Jesus in them that can be found in multiple Books/Gospels, this quote in Revelation 1:8 can not be found any where else in the Bible! So we do not know who wrote the book. Historians and theologians agree that the book is invalid according to the above quote. Also the gospels of John have 'the gospel according to John'. Why? Because the early Christians were not even sure if the writers were who they said they were! Let us remember that the NT was not even documented on paper until 40 to 300 years after Jesus depending on what Christian you talk to. So the dating is way too long for us to be assuming books to belong to certain people.' "Four times the author identifies himself as John (1:1,4,9; 22: .....In the third century, however, an African bishop named Dionysius compared the language, style and thought of the Apocalypse (Revelation) with that of the other writings of John and decided that the book could not been written by the apostle of John. He suggested that the author was a certain John the Presbyter, whose name appears elsewhere in ancient writings. Although many today follow Dionysius in his view of authorship, the external evidence seems overwhelmingly supportive of the traditional view. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 1922)"
Again, we don't know who wrote the Book of Revelation. It is certainly highly doubtful that it was written by Apostle John. The Theologians and Historians of the NIV Bible seem to agree with the invalidity of this book from the above quote. So are you now going to consider the other John's words as the Words and Inspirations of GOD Almighty? As we see, the style of writing in the book of Revelation is different from the books that are believed to be from John which are the Gospel of John, 1 John, 2 John and 3 John. The book of Revelation's style seems to be closer to John the Presbyter's writings. This man is known in ancient writings. There are also many Christian theologians today that hold the same view about the falsety of the book of Revelation. Isn't this sufficient enough to prove that the book is doubtful? Notice that in the sections of "Gospel of John" and "Gospels of 1, 2 & 3 John" above, the author did not identify himself and it was ASSUMED without actual proofs that it was Saint John who wrote them. Notice how they said that if he were to identify himself, then it would be hard for them to explain it. Now, notice the author in the Book of Revelation does identify himself as John, but he has a complete different language and style of writing from the other books, which created much uncertainty about its validity in the Church. The Book of Revelation is a very important, probably the most important Book in the Bible today, because it has prophecies in it of what Christians believe is for our future today, even though it has nothing to do with our current world. It talks about Jesus soon (1800 to 2000 years ago) will return (Revelation 22:7). I don't know how soon is 2000 years to the Bible. All the people that this book was told to had died. Second of all, God is not the first. God has ALWAYS existed. Yet another mistake in the Bible.
Matthew 6:12 Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. Contradiction. It also means you can forgive me. So are you god?
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. God sent Jesus. So God is sending salvation. So God gave salvation. note: calling Jesus is god does not mean he is god. Psalm 82:6 is the reason.
First of all i have already disproved John 10:30. John 1:1 is a mistranslation. John 3,10,14 show Jesus and god as a duality so its a contradiction. John 14:9 has been disproved also above. 1 John 5:7 is an insertation universally recognised.
Psalms is talking about David. Anyway: Jacob is God's son and firstborn: "Israel is my son, even my firstborn" Exodus 4:22. Solomon is God's son "He shall build an house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son": 2 Samuel 7:13-14. Ephraim is God's firstborn: "for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn." Jeremiah 31:9 (who is God's firstborn? Israel or Ephraim?). Adam is the son of God "Adam, which was the son of God." Luke 3:38.
Holy One does not mean God. The prophets are all holy.
Mistranslation. The actual correct word is 'prostrated'.
You are hiding the exclamation mark. Thomas has just seen a dead man rise and is shocked. Besides neither 'lord' nor 'god' makes Jesus god since lord was used on many people and god was used on the children of Israel.
Disproved Isaiah 9:6 earlier.
Melchizedek is also eternal and everlasting.
John 17:5 is talking about the glory Jesus had and had before the world. Not the glory of God. John 5: 22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him This talks about them as two seperate beings. hebrews is talking about kingdom not glory.
I disproved this earlier.
Elisha also healed diseases in the old testament.
He is speaking in the way where someone else does the action but He claims the glory. For example the roman king nero might have his army conquer a country. But he would say "i conquered it".
First verse does not have a quote. John 1:4 just says Jesus has life.
Prophet Elisha brought back to life a dead son of a Shunammite woman. Resurrected himself. After being dead and buried, he stood up on his feet. Healed a Syrian named Naaman of leprosy. (2 Kings 4:35; 13:21 and 5:14).
Please explain where you got this understanding from. The verse is clear. It says God is greater than Jesus. It also talks about them seperatly which means they cannot be one.
You just confirmed that God is greater than Jesus. God is greater than Jesus like Jesus is kreitton (greater) than the angels. If the angels and Jesus are the same nature, than angels are also god.
Where is your source for the jewish imagery? Adam is the first human. Jesus is not the first son.
This is ridicolous. So Firstborn despite meaning first, actually does not mean first. Lol! Yeah right. So if i say 'dog' do you think i am saying 'cat' to you?
So David has the nature of God? So David is god? Nope. your argument is flawed. Son of God and God are titles to describe LOYAL followers (possibily). By the way satan was also called Elohim. Shall we worship satan?
David is also begotten so he is unique too. No wait you can't have two uniques...
Wrong. The word used there was yachid which means only; Nothing to do with unique. Ishmael was also a son, but it is a contradiction.
Let me end this with Jesus' words: "Hear O israel, the Lord our God is One." Mark 12:29. loyal
There were no parellels except with the one where Jesus created.
God's Name is precisily what it is. A name. You do not need to translate names. Because it simply becomes a sound(s) to call someone. Thus there is no need (although you can if you wish) to translate them. Thus if christians were right it would be: "before Abraham was born, YHWH".
Sorry i thought it was the second one. Besides Jesus never claimed he is god.
I am not leaving anything out. [quote] Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." So Jesus is clearly claiming to be God, and this is something that the Jews fully understand: [quote]"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God." So that is why they were trying to stone him: Because Jesus was claiming to be God. Jesus does not say they are wrong, but that miracles speak of who he is:
All wrong. I shall go over this AGAIN but only very briefly. Read what i wrote before for more information. As i explained earlier, probaly to soulfire, Jesus and the father are one in purpose. They cannot be one in a trinity because of the verse saying John 17: 20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. Read verse 21 carefully. Then the Jews, who also misunderstood, picked up stones to stone Jesus because they thought he was talking about some sort of duality to which Jesus quickly says that the Jews were called gods too. 31Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" 33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God." 34Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'[e]? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." 39Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp. It's self-explantory. loyal
People often blind themselves. Anyone can see the selective translation of new translations for example where NIV SHOULD put saviour it writes 'deliverer'. The KJV is old and has translated this correctly however. For such reasons, i find little next to no reason to trust Christians' interpretations especially when they start claming Jesus is god when he said 'i am', when actually if he was claiming to be YHWH the sentence would not make sense!
How have we changed? Soulfire
If you look at it that way, but scripture is scripture. The Jews ask Jesus that if He is truely the Messiah, why doesn't He say it. Jesus replies with "I have told you, yet ye believe not." Basically, Jesus says He already told people what He is - God. People didn't believe Him though, just as people don't believe Him today. Jesus did let the world know, through the miracles He performed, through His claims, through His apostles, and that Jesus keeps living on today. Have you ever considered that YOU are the one misunderstanding the verse?
Hm, I suppose you did make a small point about who is saying it. But as a Christian, the word of the Bible is infallible and subject to NO error. Meaning that whoever made the claims is irrelevant, it's what they are saying that matters. Alright, so the verse supports a duality - but it in no way refutes the idea of a trinity. The idea of a trinity comes into play later when the Bible talks about God's Holy Spirit, which is worshiped as the "third leg" of the Trinity.
And what exactly does Messiah mean? The divine leader of the Jews - God, in human form basically. Yes, He does works in His Father's name, but God glorfied Jesus for them as well. And "Noone can pluck the sheep out of Jesus' hand just like noone can pluck the sheep out of God's hand" tells me nothing. If anything, it tells me that Jesus is just as important, similar, or the same as God.
Alright, Jesus is saying "that They may be ONE" He is referring to the Church. The people who follow Christ, He wants them to be united, JUST AS WE ARE ONE, or just as Jesus and the Father are one, because Jesus is talking to God in that verse.
Jesus didn't lie, He just didn't say "I am God"
I read it, and the word greater YOU are misinterpreting.
How do you get "take this cup from me" means cup of death? And again, you supported my point when you talked about wills. Jesus wanted to be sure that His death was God's will.
Um, could be. The language in the Bible means differently than the language today, and since I'm no expert there, I couldn't tell you the meaning. And perhaps He was referring to a different counsellor, or to Himself coming again, but if He was - how can you say that it was Muhammed? You can't, you can just assume. And you know what assuming does...
It's not really contradicting - but slightly in the sense. The reason I said that no one important was speaking was because no one had yet to learn about Jesus. Jesus was a prophet, but also SO much more.
We'll pretend that made sense. What happens is at the beginning of Jesus' story, before Jesus was born, it is proclaimed that "No man hath seen God." After Jesus was born, Jesus said "He that hath seen me hath seen God." To me, that is Jesus saying He is God.
Um, I'm pretty sure when LORD has ALL letters CAPITALIZED, it is referring to Jesus. Look up Lord in a dictionary, one of the definitions is "Jesus". Alright, if you read the rest around 1 Kings 22:19, you will now that they are talking about prophecies, not actually seeing the LORD like Jesus in person. Again, Amos is referring to another prophecy, not seeing God in person as Jesus was saying. They are two different claims and have two different meanings.
Alright, I admit, could've worded it better - but when did I say it doesn't count? I was just saying that that law was before Jesus' time, and because Jesus is God, He can be worshipped.
What corruption? Stop making things up in your head.
Alright, so regarding Genesis. Plants were created on the 3rd and light on the 4th. That means nothing because of two things: 1) God is all-powerful, so He can do as He wishes. 2) Don't you think the plants can go without light for 1 day? I'm sure they could. So basically, your argument was a whole lot of nothing.
For the umpteenth time, the entire idea of a Trinity (or duality if that is what we are to discuss) is two SEPERATE BEINGS as a part of ONE GOD. I'm not making excuses, and I know the truth. Jesus is God. That is the truth.
I'm saying to look at it the other way - your interpretations could be off (which I believe they are terribly wrong, but that's a matter of opinion). Just because you say or think that the image is referring to a mirror image in no way means that's what it is.
Um, why if Jesus is full of God are we? The only answer I can offer you is because God is all-powerful, because beyond that, I can't explain the mysteries of God (nor can any man).
I avoided them because they are irrelevant, it doesn't matter. It's not meant to be a single proof of Jesus' divinity on it's own, but rather supplement the multiple other verses, all of which you've failed to convince me means Jesus isn't God.
Are you honestly that stupid? The word LORD has different meanings, and like I said before when it is in the Bible and ALL CAPITALS, it is referring to Jesus. 
Jesus does not come out with the words "I am God" Jesus also never said the exact four words, "I am a prophet" or the exact four words "I am a man," but we know he was both a prophet and a man. It is not necessary for Jesus to say the exact phrase "I am a man" for us to know that he was a man. Likewise, it is not necessary for Jesus to utter the exact three words "I am God" in order for us to determine whether or not he is divine. Jesus may not have said the exact sentence "I am God" but he did claim the divine name for himself (Exo. 3:14 with John 8:5 and he also received worship (Matt. 2:2; 14:33; 28:9; John 9:35-3.
When Moses was up at the Mount speaking to God, Moses asked God what his name was. God said, "I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you,’” (Exodus 3:14). In John 8:58 Jesus said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” Right after this the Jews pick up stones to throw at him. Later, in John 10:30-33 Jesus claimed to be one with the Father and the Jews wanted to stone him again because they said to Jesus, "You, being a man, make yourself out to be God." Jesus had claimed the divine name for his own in the Jews wanted to kill him for it. Therefore, from Jesus' own mouth we see that he was claiming to be God. Now please understand that anyone can say the words "I am" and it does not mean that he is claiming to be God. Someone could say, "I am over here." That is not claiming the divine name. Likewise, someone could say, "I am hungry," or "I am sick." Neither example is claiming divinity because the use of term "I am" in context clearly shows us that is not what is occurring. But, in John 8:58 when Jesus said "before Abraham was born, I am," the Jews knew exactly what he was saying. Notice that he says before Abraham was born (using the past tense) and then he switches to the present tense when he says "I am." Jesus switches tenses of the verbs on purpose so that when he does so in the context of referencing Abraham, Jesus is clearly drawing the Jews' attention to the Old Testament Scriptures and then using a present tense form of the verb "to be" by saying "I AM". Someone who says "I am hungry" is not drawing attention to the Old Testament Scriptures for context. Jesus was clearly causing the Jews to reflect upon the divine name "I am" that Jesus used for himself. We know that they understood this because as is said above, they said, "You, being a man, make yourself out to be God," (John 10:33) John 1:1,14, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...14And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth." John 20:28-29, "Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed." Heb. 1:8, "But of the Son He says, 'Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom.'" Regarding your responses to the parallels between God and Jesus, to me they are mostly severe misinterpretations of the verses I am giving, therefore it would be pointless for me to respond to each of them, because all we would reach is a stalemate of back and forth bickering and nothing would come from it. Do not think you've won simply because I've chosen not to reply to them, I wouldn't want your head to get big or anything. I agree, God is one God - with three parts. And now, let me leave you with some verses that may illustrate the importance of Jesus Christ: John 3:16 God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life John 14:6 Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me'. It's pretty easy to see that Jesus deserves worship as God. a_dubDesign
sorry I'm jumping back a bit, I've heard some thoughts about how Jesus's life and espically death wasn't a means of changing God in anyway way, but the means by which God changes us. Sorry I can't give me information on this right now, I'm having problems remembering which book I read it in, but once I get some time I'll search for it. iexplore
Well here goes nothing! Concept of god can also be looked at in the following way. Take an example of Mahatma Gandhi. In India he is worshipped as a God now and there is also a temple to facilitate the same. Not because he did something really out of this world and what anyone else (who made is mind up and heart) could have done but mostly becuase people did not believe in themselves so much to lift themselves to that position. Basically nothing is impossible and we all know it but are not ready to believe it!
maclui
I think it is a Dogma, how ever, there is proof that Jesus is God himself. You can notice thoughout the bible that he is the son of god thus God in a human form (I know it is difficult to understand but you have to belive it.) He was announced in the old testament by many prophets, not as another prophet but as a higher being. He is the son of god, and the trinity explains it all. Not exactly explians it but if justifies it.
DEEP analysis Soulfire. Amazing 
Loyal great discussion livilou
Could it not also mean that we were the ones that were imperfect and a better, different way to deal with us would help us come closer to Him?
Exactly how much of God's Spirit do you think a human can hold? This does not mean that all of God's Spirit was in Jesus, only that He was holding all he could hold. And before you ask, I believe that we can have part of God's Spirit in us. I can fill a glass with water and say it's full, but that does not mean that all of the water is in that glass. There is only so much that it will hold. The same is true of a human body. The human body that Jesus had, at that time, was not divine. The only divine part of Him was God's Spirit in Him. It was only a vessel to hold some of God's Spirit, just as I believe that my body is only a vessel to hold some of God's Spirit in me. I'm not claiming that I'm a god, so don't even go there. I was born with a human mother and father, that prevents me from having the sinless birth (conception) that Jesus had. God sent part of His Spirit (Holy Ghost) to live in me to be my comforter (counselor, if you will), which is one of our promises from Him that would happen. It wasn't just promised to me though, it was promised to all who believe. Also, Soulfire, I wanted you to know that I've enjoyed your posts. They were very thought out and very thorough. I don't know about you, but this thread has helped strengthened my faith. Thanks for your post. And Loyal, I applaud the fact that you want to understand our belief system better, but stating that we're misunderstanding verses that we've been studying for years, probably since before you were born, isn't the way to do it. As I've already stated, I think you are a very intelligent person, but we are not misunderstanding these verses, we're just understanding them differently than you do. [/quote] Soulfire
Many thanks, friend. This is the first real topic I've really researched, really thought out, and spent literally hours on each post. I had to save them to word pad a few times to continue working on them at a later date. I also must applaud loyal for his approach to Christianity in a non-hostile, ready-to-listen attitude. Of course we don't see eye to eye, but loyal has also helped to strengthen my faith, and I have learned a ton of new scripture throughout this debate. He's gotta be my favorite Muslim .
Furthermore, I would like to add that I think I am finished in this thread. I've given my thoughts (sometimes repeated more than others) and presented all the information. To me, I am completely right... but of course, to everyone, "right" has a different meaning. Thanks for the debate! Barnzee
Greetings! If you're asking why Christians view Jesus as God, it is because he was identified as God from the very beginning of the Christian era. In Matthew's gospel, for example, which is dated somewhere between the late 50s and early 60s ADE, the title "Immanuel" is ascribed to Jesus, which means, "God with us." (cf. Matthew 1.23). swapnalokam
why do christians make prophet jesus as a god?
hmm... interesting question.. but.. you know what christians ask.. why do muslims make make jesus just a prophet? .. you haven't said anything to prove that jesus was a prophet yet.. even when.. christians are getting quotes and verses from all the books they can to prove you wrong.. come on.. man.. you started this topic.. so get in and prove it... atleast people like me would get to know some belifs.. NB: Iam not either christian nor muslim, so don't say to me.. abedalmged
Peace be Upon You all,
some one who eats can't be a God !!! it's simple. Thousands of prophets has been sent by the one God ,the creator of everything, and jesus is one of these prophets, and no difference between them. God created everything and he who created humans too, so it's easy for him to create a human without a father. it's simple. all the nations of the world has encountered prophets and believed in prophets and followed the way of prophets to know their real creator whom we will come back to him one day. A god does not born!! it's obvoius if a god was born then he have a some sort of weakness. now i will talk about the big proof with a history introduction: and the big proof is the quran, the last book that was sent to people which god promised to preserve it till the last day of life. this book fixes the belief of christians and jews about what they have missed. many of chritians don't believe in quran because he reveals their lies about jesus and about christians and what they have done with jesus and what they have done with christianity and how they defaced it and changed it as they like. with exception of some chrisitians offcourse but they are uniqe in that time! i have a bible in my house and a torah too, i read in them sometimes to strengthen my belief in god. because all the holy books are the words of god. i came here to speack in a simple manner and not to make complexicty of everything. evil will convince a human that there maybe another ways to follow than the right way and this poor human believes that and start to think and convince him self about somethings that he don't know. Leave that and think simply and clearly. and don't neglect other holy books or prophets claiming that they are lies, because who says that is the lier himself. liers are known and liers people who claim that they are prophets are discovered esaly and they are known and they are weak enough to vanish, but they are a threat for people because they can magnet people to the wrong way. words of god are distinguished from the words of people and that can be a key to know if a prophet is indeed a prophet. back to quran, god told humanity in quran that prophet muhammad was to come after prophet jesus and he came after ~600 years. justice christians confess in that and lier christians deny that. It's writtin in bibble and in torah too (for jews, that prophet moses has been told about this prophet too) this is an example that i found by searching the net about the mentioning of a prophet after jesus (the last prophet for humanity) in bible: http://www.answering-christianity.com/predict.htm http://www.islam101.com/religions/christianity/mBible.htm and there are more. you can search the holy books for that, i don't want to open that research in this post , make it in another post for those who are interested in revealing the lies and live in clear life. before ~1420 years from now prophet muhammad (peace be upon him) was supported by who when he came ??? who was waiting for him in the "island of arabs" in middle east?? Jews first and then christians! (((look at the history of Jews and why jews immigrated to the lands of arabs and why they lived with them in makkah espacially?))) this history is not hidden. prophet muhammad (peace be upon him) was protected from non- believers while he were spreading the message espacially by christians , a christian king in africa proptected the followers of muhammad (peace be upon him) when people of makkah chased them to be killed!! why he did that? becase he knew that this man was really a prophet from what he has heared from muhammad's followers and he will be ashamed in front of god if he don't help this prophet. mercy be upon that king. Why muhammad and his followers were chased and who chased him? people who prayed to idols and espacially leaders of arabs in the island with the help of jews has chased them and wanted to kill them with their message, this message : believing in one god has bad effects on the leader's economic life ,and the arrosing of the last prophet from arabs in the island and not from the family of israel has made jews angery and they started to fight that prophet who arrised from non-jewish family but instead from an arabic family this happened because jews has been used to see prophets from israel family (israel is a prophet too) and most of the prophets that god has sent were aimed to fix israel nation (they were trouble makers) and that was a mercy to israelians too, therfore jews didn't accept that arabic prophet and claimed that he is a lier till today. One Man who was supported by few weak people has spread his message in the entire world, it's a truth! everywhere you hear "islam" "muhammad" "god" and more... and this all cite that this man was supported by God this God that wanted mercy to the people sent that prohet for the last time with a power that he didn't give to any prophet. god give him the quran. this quran has everything that humanity needed in order to know the path of god and to know god. (bible and torah did so, but it was covered by the lies of people,unfortunately) This quran said that jesus (peace be upon him) will be asked in the judgment day ,when all the people stand in front of the judge, about whether he has told christians to make him as a god or not, then jesus say that he is blamless from those people and this written in quran like that (translated-you can find translated quran everywhere in the net): 5:116 AND LO! God said: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, `Worship me and my mother as deities beside God'?" [Jesus] answered: "Limitless art Thou in Thy glory! It would not have been possible for me to say what I had no right to [say]! Had I said this, Thou wouldst indeed have known it! Thou knowest all that is within myself, whereas I know not what is in Thy Self. Verily, it is Thou alone who fully knowest all the things that are beyond the reach of a created being's perception. 5:117 Nothing did I tell them beyond what Thou didst bid me [to say]: `Worship God, [who is] my Sustainer as well as your Sustainer.' And I bore witness to what they did as long as I dwelt in their midst; but since Thou hast caused me to die, Thou alone hast been their keeper: for Thou art witness unto everything. God said in quran too, that those people are fool that they belive in those lies that jesus and his mother are gods with the one god, because they ate food. and a god don't eat! he is not weak. the need for somthing is called a weakness. a god needs nothing but others needs him. and god said that it's easy for him to create human again, he is the creator so why people are amazed to see a child without a father while this child is a prophet for them so it was a proof for people that this child was borned like this , this child has talked to people while he was small baby and this was another proof for people: it was said in quran like this: (read this carfully it has a lot of interesting things that christians after chris has lied about-it may be hard to understand this high language but you can ask me about translations i may help): 5:75 The Christ, son of Mary, was but an apostle: all [other] apostles had passed away before him; and his mother was one who never deviated from the truth; and they both ate food [like other mortals]. Behold how clear We make these messages unto them: and then behold how perverted are their minds! and 19:27 And in time she returned to her people, carrying the child with her. They said: "O Mary! Thou hast indeed done an amazing thing! 19:28 O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a wicked man, nor was thy mother a loose woman!" 19:29 Thereupon she pointed to him. They exclaimed: "How can we talk to one who [as yet] is a little boy in the cradle?" 19:30 [But] he said: "Behold, I am a servant of God. He has vouchsafed unto me revelation and made me a prophet, 19:31 and made me blessed wherever I may be; and He has enjoined upon me prayer and charity as long as I live, 19:32 and [has endowed me with] piety towards my mother; and He has not made me haughty or bereft of grace. 19:33 "Hence, peace was upon me on the day when I was born, and [will be upon me] on the day of my death, and on the day when I shall be raised to life [again]!" 19:34 SUCH WAS, in the words of truth, Jesus the son of Mary, about whose nature they so deeply disagree. 19:35 It is not conceivable that God should have taken unto Himself a son: limitless is He in His glory! When He wills a thing to be, He but says unto it "Be" -and it is! 19:36 And [thus it was that Jesus always said]: "Verily, God is my Sustainer as well as your Sustainer; so worship [none but] Him: this (alone] is a straight way." 19:37 And yet, the sects [that follow the Bible] are at variance among themselves [about the nature of Jesus Woe, then, unto all who deny the truth when that awesome Day will appear! Quran is full with truths about the life of christ and about what chritians (after prophet jesus) has said and claim, for example christians claiming that christ was killed at the cross and quran said he was not killed he is prophet of god, and god took him back and he will send him back to earth again. the one who betrayed jesus or the one who wanted to kill jesus he is the one who was killed at the cross because god made him resemble jesus then people killed that betrayer thinking that he is jesus: in quran: 4:155 And so, [We punished them ] for the breaking of their pledge, and their refusal to acknowledge God's messages, and their slaying of prophets against all right, and their boast, "Our hearts are already full of knowledge"- nay, but God has sealed their hearts in result of their denial of the truth, and [now] they believe in but few things - ; 4:156 and for their refusal to acknowledge the truth, and the awesome calumny which they utter against Mary, 4:157 and their boast, "Behold, we have slain the Christ Jesus, son of Mary, [who claimed to be] an apostle of God!" However, they did not slay him, and neither did they crucify him, but it only seemed to them [as if it had been] so; and, verily, those who hold conflicting views thereon are indeed confused, having no [real] knowledge thereof, and following mere conjecture. For, of a certainty, they did not slay him: 4:158 nay, God exalted him unto Himself - and God is indeed almighty, wise. 4:159 Yet there is not one of the followers of earlier revelation who does not, at the moment of his death, grasp the truth about Jesus; and on the Day of Resurrection he [himself] shall bear witness to the truth against them. 4:160 So, then, for the wickedness committed by those who followed the Jewish faith did We deny unto them certain of the good things of life which [aforetime] had been allowed to them; and [We did this] for their having so often turned away from the path of God, (all these cites from quran are translations, god has spoken the words of quran in arabic, and people can't write quran in another language it will not be the same quran if it's written in another language but people can translate quran into another language and translate the ideas and meanings ,quran being in arabic is the secret why arabs has believed in quran so fast when they heared it, arabs were "professionals" in arabic in the period when prophet muhammad had came and when they heard those words which are in high high level of language than they know then they knew that this a really highly made words in arabic so they believed that this words is the made of god and not mankind- this is just for knowledge) so i will give you the prooves from the book of prooves about your claims, i have not brought anything from my mind i say what the truth says and you can belive or not, it's a fault of religious men of christianity that they hide the facts from people. believeing in one God and jesus (peace be upon him) is prophet of god ,beleiving that muhammad (peace be upon him) is prophet of god,believing in the last day and the judgment day,believing in all the prophets and in all the angels are the main things that make you a believer and make you servant of god and for rescueing your self from hell and entering heaven. PEACE be upon you all. (sorry about this attack to chritians friends here, but it is the nature of that discussion to be like that, sorry again) livilou
When God made the Earth, He walked with Adam in the cool of the evening. That is the kind of relationship He wanted to have with us. When Adam and Eve sinned the first time, that destroyed the ability to have that kind of relationship. Jesus gave us the ability to have a better relationship. And as far as the Spirit of God, I realize this won't help, but I'm going to post it anyway. Someone may get something out of it. "2.163": And your God is one God! there is no god but He; He is the Beneficent, the Merciful. Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. livilou
If you don't trust our interpretations, then why ask? We've showed you different verses, not just that one. loyal
Too much writing! Lol, i hope i do not get repititive strain
injury
How can Jesus be a part of God, and be human as well? It is impossible to be two things at once. Man needs to learn. God is All-Knowing. Man is weak. God is All-Powerful. Man will go corrupt if he is not guided. God is pure at heart. How can God need to learn AND be All-Knowing? How can God be weak yet All-Powerful? How can God possibly go corrupt, when He created all evil?
Wrong. When the Jews ask Jesus if he is the Messiah, Jesus says he has already told them. He has NOT told them he is god. I have no idea where you got that from. The sentence says Messiah. Jesus said he has already told them he is the Messiah. Jesus did not tell anyone he is god. Infact scripture outside the Bible shows that Jesus was strongly against the idea. In the Bible Jesus supports having a God (meaning he cannot be god) in several places and removes the trinity by declaring God is one, not three in one, (Mark 12:29). People do not believe Jesus is god because of the numerous problems. E.g. did Jesus die? Yep. Did God die? Nope. Is Jesus is god? Yes according to christianity. Huh? Then how can Jesus be god if God did not die and Jesus did? Jesus' miracles are not unique. Elisha, peace and blessings upon him, in the Old Testament also did all of Jesus' miracles and more.
Yes.
The Bible is subject to hundreds of errors. See http://www.islamhope.co.nr/articles/corrupted1.html for example. It matters who said it. If some random John disciple says Jesus is god, i don't care. He is not trustworthy even in the first place. However if Jesus says he is god, i've got to worry.
Hmmm...it is possible to include a trinity. But the holy spirit is not a third of god, he's all of god according to Christianity.
Wrong terribly. Do not try and tell me who the Messiah is supposed to be. --- Now both the son of God and the term Christ do not mean God. They never have, and never will. The term Christ means Messiah, the definition of Messiah is not God, and the Jews who were awaiting their Messiah did not believe the Messiah would be God: The predominant Jewish understanding of moshiach ("the messiah") is based on the writings of Maimonides, (the Rambam). His views on the messiah are discussed in his Mishneh Torah, his 14 volume compendium of Jewish law, in the section Hilkhot Melakhim Umilchamoteihem, chapter 11. Maimonides writes: "The anointed King ("HaMelekh HaMoshiach") is destined to stand up and restore the Davidic Kingdom to its antiquity, to the first sovereignty. He will build the Temple in Jerusalem and gather the strayed ones of Israel together. All laws will return in his days as they were before: Sacrificial offerings are offered and the Sabbatical years and Jubilees are kept, according to all its precepts that are mentioned in the Torah. Whoever does not believe in him, or whoever does not wait for his coming, not only does he defy the other prophets, but also the Torah and our Rabbi Moses. For the Torah testifies about him, thus: "And the Lord Your God will return your returned ones and will show you mercy and will return and gather you... If your strayed one shall be at the edge of Heaven... And He shall bring you" etc." (Deuteronomy 30:3-5). "These words that are explicitly stated in the Torah, encompass and include all the words spoken by all the prophets. In the section of Torah referring to Bala'am, too, it is stated, and there he prophesied about the two anointed ones: The first anointed one is David, who saved Israel from all their oppressors; and the last anointed one will stand up from among his descendants and saves Israel in the end. This is what he says (Numbers 24:17-1 : "I see him but not now" - this is
David; "I behold him but not near" - this is the Anointed King. "A star has shot forth from Jacob" - this is David; "And a brand will rise up from Israel" - this is the Anointed King. "And he will smash the edges of Moab" - This is David, as it states: "...And he struck Moab and measured them by rope" (II Samuel 8:2); "And he will uproot all Children of Seth" - this is the Anointed King, of whom it is stated: "And his reign shall be from sea to sea" (Zechariah 9:10). "And Edom shall be possessed" - this is David, thus: "And Edom became David's as slaves etc." (II Samuel 8:6); "And Se'ir shall be possessed by its enemy" - this is the Anointed King, thus: "And saviors shall go up Mount Zion to judge Mount Esau, and the Kingdom shall be the Lord's" (Obadiah 1:21)." "And by the Towns of Refuge it states: "And if the Lord your God will widen up your territory... you shall add on for you another three towns" etc. (Deuteronomy 19:8-9). Now this thing never happened; and the Holy One does not command in vain. But as for the words of the prophets, this matter needs no proof, as all their books are full with this issue." "Do not imagine that the anointed King must perform miracles and signs and create new things in the world or resurrect the dead and so on. The matter is not so: For Rabbi Akiba was a great scholar of the sages of the Mishnah, and he was the assistant- warrior of the king Ben Coziba, and claimed that he was the anointed king. He and all the Sages of his generation deemed him the anointed king, until he was killed by sins; only since he was killed, they knew that he was not. The Sages asked him neither a miracle nor a sign..." "And if a king shall stand up from among the House of David, studying Torah and indulging in commandments like his father David, according to the written and oral Torah, and he will coerce all Israel to follow it and to strengthen its weak points, and will fight Hashem's wars, this one is to be treated as if he were the anointed one. If he succeeded {and won all nations surrounding him. Old prints and mss.} and built a Holy Temple in its proper place and gathered the strayed ones of Israel together, this is indeed the anointed one for certain, and he will mend the entire world to worship the Lord together, as it is stated: "For then I shall turn for the nations a clear tongue, to call all in the Name of the Lord and to worship Him with one shoulder" (Zephaniah 3:9)." "But if he did not succeed until now, or if he was killed, it becomes known that he is not this one of whom the Torah had promised us, and he is indeed like all proper and wholesome kings of the House of David who died. The Holy One, Blessed Be He, only set him up to try the public by him, thus: "And from the seekers of wisdom there shall stumble, to purify among them and to clarify and to brighten until the time of the ending, for there is yet to the set time" (Daniel 11:35)." Taken from http://www.aish.com/tishabav/tishabavdefault/The_Messiah_in_Juda ism.asp
It's obvious the verse 'JUST AS WE ARE ONE' means like we are one, you are one. And that's what the Bible says infact.
You did answer my reply. Jesus said the father is greater. So obviously the father is greater. Because Jesus said greater than I. So he is saying that God is greater than him JESUS.
You do not say how.
Cup is figurative. Jesus is not talking about some bronze cup he does not want anymore. He is talking about the cup of death. He does not want to drink from it. But he prayed that God would do His will not Jesus's will. This is because Jesus recognises that God is Greater with an All-Knowing Most-Wise mind and All- Powerful Being. Jesus wants the cup of death taken away from him, but if God wills it to happen, it will happen. But Jesus does not want it to happen, even though he will do what God says.
You're right that I cannot assume that the prophet Muhammed, peace and blessings upon him, was prophesised here. But i can be sure that Jesus was not prophesising himself. I can also be sure that Jesus promised that nother comforter would come (Jesus is also a comforter according to prophecies in Old Testament). Since Jesus said another, it means another. It does not mean 'I'.
You did contradict yourself. When i said that some random people said Jesus is god, and i do not care about them. You replied that they said it, and it's in the Bible. Now however when i say that some random said Jesus is less than a god, (to appeal to you not to me), you say that you do not care who said it. You are either a prophet or God. You cannot be both. A prophet brings a message from God to the people. He is the postman. God speaks to the people directly. Bob talks to Micky directly in the same room (no need to write letters and post them). Thus Bob and Micky need no postman. In the same way, if Jesus is god (which he is not), then how can he be a prophet also?
It made sense. Think about it. When you see Jesus, you say, you see God. Thus when Jesus was a year old, people saw God. So when anyone sees Jesus, he sees god. You also avoided my verses. And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. (1 Kings 22:19) I saw the Lord standing upon the altar...(Amos 9:1) These people have seen God, yet the verse claims that no man has seen God!
Just because a dictionary tells you that Jesus is god does not mean that he is. Besides, you are randomly connecting two things together. Lord means YHWH in capital letters often. In small it will often mean Elohim. Calling Jesus and Elohim does not make him god, since even satan was called an Elohim.
The Kings verse is a prophecy. But Micaiah still saw the Lord in his vision. He still SAW the Lord. Thus a contradiction. Same with Amos probaly.
Yet you failed to prove whatsoever that Jesus is god. You have not even brought more than five verses saying he is god. And none of them were spoken by Jesus.
I'm not making up anything. Read Moses who predicts corruptiom in the Bible and Jeremiah who says there is corruption in the Law of the Bible.
You are not thinking scientifically. Plants cannot survive one day without sunlight unless they hsve sunlight on the day before!!! Infact every single living thing gets it energy from the food chain which comes from green plants. Every SINGLE LIVING THING on earth. Since the plants do not have energy it is impossible for them to exist or evolve. The situation is worsened because the world was not created in six days. Thus christians says six days are metaphorical. But, that means plants did not have light for millions maybe billions of years!!!
It seems you are making excuses. You also did not answer my comment. The idea of a trinity is that God is three in one. You cannot be three different things sepereately and be one at the same time. It's impossible. The very fact that Jesus is completely seperate to God means he is in no way connected to God (through being). Also you do not have the truth. You have blind faith. You have not shown me a vrse where Jesus says directly or indirectly "i am god". Now lol, since God claims He is God many times in the old testament, why does He do not do it in the new testament? Has He overgone a personality change? Is He shy?
Telling me i am wrong does not mean i am wrong. Infact because you are not responding to some of what i say it means you cannot respond. he image is virtual if in a mirror.
Um, why if Jesus is full of God are we? The only answer I can offer you is because God is all-powerful, because beyond that, I can't explain the mysteries of God (nor can any man). [/quote] Any man can explain God. He's one. Simple. Infact it was Paul or maybe Peter who said in corthinians "God is not the author of confusion". Yet no-one understands the trinity. Also a clear flaw is in these verses. Since all of the holy spirit rests in Jesus it cannot rest in anyone else because ALL of it rests in Jesus. Also how can Jesus dwell in himself? It does not matter how powerful God is. If He is all in Jesus, he cannot be in anyone else. Notice the word 'all'?
You avoided them because they are supposed to make Jesus look god yet they do not. Emmanunel has been proved not to mean Jesus is god. This one of the strongest proofs Christians usually quote. There is nothing in the Bible, except a few sayings of men, John, and Paul to suggest that Jesus is god. Where did God declare Himself to be a man in His Own Words? You refuse to accept anything i say because the truth is shocking.
Don't call me stupid. It was YOUR ARGUMENT! I was simply just giving you another example for your argument. Which means you think your own argument is stupid. Thanks for agreeing with me about how silly it was. Second of all, i request you stop connecting random things together. LORD is YHWH. Lord is Adoni or Elohim or similar. Lord is small letters does not make someone god. You are ignoring my arguments. King David was called Lord. Is he god? Nope. You are adding your own beliefs as though they are fact. No dictionary woudl claim such a ridiciolous unsupported statemnt. Lord means Lord. LORD means YHWH. There is no mention of Jesus. Lord is a title. Jesus was never called LORD. Even he was called LORD, it does not matter, because he was called it by men.
Thank you for admitting this. Also Jesus never said he was god in any way, shape, or form. Why then do Christians take him to be god? You have not come up with a single statement of Jesus, directly or indirectly, where Jesus claims to be god. You would expect God to say He is God. Is this a coincidence? I think not. If you make a claim on someone, then you would expect that someone to back your claim up. If I claim somebody is a king, you would expect that king to say he is a king, at least once. In the OT God says he is God several times, why not once with Jesus in the NT? Did God change his ways? I think not, since the OT says God does not change. Here are the passages from the OT where God says he is God: Gen 35:11 And God said unto him, I [am] God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins Gen 46:3 And he said, I [am] God, the God of thy father: fear not to go down into Egypt; for I will there make of thee a great nation: Exd 16:12 I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel: speak unto them, saying, At even ye shall eat flesh, and in the morning ye shall be filled with bread; and ye shall know that I [am] the LORD your God. Exd 20:2 I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Psa 46:10 Be still, and know that I [am] God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth. Psa 50:7 Hear, O my people, and I will speak; O Israel, and I will testify against thee: I [am] God, [even] thy God. Psa 81:10 I [am] the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt: open thy mouth wide, and I will fill it. Isa 41:10 Fear thou not; for I [am] with thee: be not dismayed; for I [am] thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness. Isa 45:3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call [thee] by thy name, [am] the God of Israel. Isa 45:5 I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else, [there is] no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me, Jer 32:27 Behold, I [am] the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me? Eze 13:9 And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I [am] the Lord GOD. Eze 20:19 I [am] the LORD your God; walk in my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them; Eze 20:20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I [am] the LORD your God. Eze 23:49 And they shall recompense your lewdness upon you, and ye shall bear the sins of your idols: and ye shall know that I [am] the Lord GOD. So as we can see, God is not shy to say I am God. So if Jesus is God, then how come he never said it once like the God of the old testament? This is not a coincidence. Infact Jesus worships God. There are lots of verses, here is one: Luke 4 5 The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. 6 And he said to him, "I will give you all their authority and splendor, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. 7 So if you worship me, it will all be yours." 8 Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.'" Also: John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "
Jesus declares himself to be the Messiah John 4: 25The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us." 26Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he." Jesus declares himself to be a prophet Matthew 13:57And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown and in his own house is a prophet without honor." Jesus declares himself to be a man Lots of places where Jesus says he is the son of man.
It is very necessary. How in the world is the whole world supposed to know that God has (supposedly) made himself into a man if the man does not say! Every hindu recarnation announced he was god!!! Why not Jesus?
I have already disproved this John 8:58. Why are you reposting it?
Wrong translation. Correct: prostrated. the same Bibles claim Daniel was worshipped. It's wrong. The correct translation is prostrated.
Son of man does not make him god. Other people were c Neither does calling him lord. Why are you using repeated arguments? The Prophet Ezekiel (peace be upon him) is addressed by God as "son of man" some 94 times in the King James Version! Some examples: "And he said unto me, Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak unto thee. (Ezekiel 2:1)" "And he said unto me, Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that hath rebelled against me: they and their fathers have transgressed against me, [even] unto this very day. (Ezekiel 2:3)" "But thou, son of man, hear what I say unto thee; Be not thou rebellious like that rebellious house: open thy mouth, and eat that I give thee. (Ezekiel 2: "
"Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, eat that thou findest; eat this roll, and go speak unto the house of Israel. (Ezekiel 3:1)" "Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, behold, I will break the staff of bread in Jerusalem: and they shall eat bread by weight, and with care; and they shall drink water by measure, and with astonishment. (Ezekiel 4:16)" "Then said he unto me, Son of man, lift up thine eyes now the way toward the north. So I lifted up mine eyes the way toward the north, and behold northward at the gate of the altar this image of jealousy in the entry. (Ezekiel 8:5)" "Son of man, eat thy bread with quaking, and drink thy water with trembling and with carefulness; (Ezekiel 12:1 "
"Therefore, son of man, speak unto the house of Israel, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Yet in this your fathers have blasphemed me, in that they have committed a trespass against me. (Ezekiel 20:27)" In all of the above-referenced passages, "son of man," merely is a phrase standing in the place of the name Ezekiel. God could as easily have said: And he said unto me, Ezekiel, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak unto thee. -- OR -- And he said unto me, Brother, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak unto thee. Rather than what King James quotes the Almighty as saying in Ezekiel 2:1: "And he said unto me, Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak unto thee. (Ezekiel 2:1)" The same observation can be made concerning Ezekiel 2:3, 2:8, 3:1, 4:16, 8:5, 12:18, 20:27, or numerous verses I have not bothered to quote: 2:6; 3:3; 3:4; 3:10; 3:17; 3:25; 4:1; 5:1; 6:2; 7:2; 8:6; 8:8; 8:12; 8:15; 8:17; 11:2; 11:4; 11:15; 12:2; 12:3; 12:9; 12:22; 12:27; 13:2; 13:17; 14:3; 14:13; 15:2; 16:2; 17:2; 20:3; 20:4; 20:46; 21:2; 21:6; 21:9; 21:12; 21:14; 21:19; 21:28; 22:2; 22:18; 22:24; 23:2; 23:36; 24:2; 24:16; 24:25; 25:2; 26:2; 27:2; 28:2; 28:12; 28:21; 29:2; 29:18; 30:2; 30:21; 31:2; 32:2; 32:18; 33:2; 33:7; 33:10; 33:12; 33:24; 33:30; 34:2; 35:2; 36:1; 36:17; 37:3; 37:9; 37:11; 37:16; 38:2; 38:14; 39:1; 39:17; 40:4; 43:7; 43:10; 43:18; 44:5; 47:6. No Christian would claim that the Prophet Ezekiel (peace and blessings be upon him) was god, the son of god or part of the trinity, yet God referred to him as "son of man," some 94 times! The same is true of the Prophet Daniel (peace be upon him). The Old Testament reports: "And it came to pass, when I, [even] I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man. And I heard a man's voice between [the banks of] Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this [man] to understand the vision. So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end [shall be] the vision. (Daniel 8:15-17 (King James Version))" Gabriel, thus, addressed Daniel as "son of man." Again, no one would argue that this form of address proves that Daniel (peace and blessings be upon him) was god, the son of god or part of the trinity.
You are obviously not interested in a real debate. You are repeating refuted arguments. Like i have said before, if Jesus was really calling himself Yahweh it would say: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, YHWH' Which does not make sense. A real honest translation is 'truly, truly, i say to you i existed before Abraham'.
Isn't this a refuted argument too? Yes it is. Infact you later agreed with me Jesus is talking about unity! Yet strangely you are repeating the same flawed argument. Also the Jews also misunderstood Jesus. Which is why he quickly said to the Jews: ' 34Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'[e]? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— ' Jesus says they are called gods, so they should not be offended.
We know they misunderstand this because it is plain that many times everyone misunderstood him. E.g. when Jesus told them to eat his flesh they were all confused. Besides, Jesus replies that they are gods. Because he, Jesus, quotes a verse which calls them gods, he cannot be claiming to be God Almighty the Creator, since there is only one God, but several small lords.
John 1:1 is a bad translation. I've also refuted this before. Read my previous posts.
Thomas is shocked. He's seen a dead man risen. Also notice the exclamation mark at the end of thomas' sentence? He's shocked. Also calling someone lord does not make them god since David was called lord. Calling someone god does not make them god since in the Psalms the Jews were called gods. Even satan was called a god. Lastly, thomas ANSWERED him. What question did Jesus ask? He didn't ask a question.
Jesus has a kingdom. So did David. Jesus was called god. Great, so was the Jews.
Of course i have won lol. All that is happening is you bringing up a verse, me refuting it, and you attacking a single point of mine. Then eventually ignoring all my points. Obviously if you could refute all my arguments you would. Besides, you never told me or showed me HOW i have severly misinterpreted verses.
False translation again. Ask any scholar who knows the language and he will tell you it says 'unique' son. Not one and only. Also assuming that this false translation of the verse is right, it would be in contradiction to these verses: Jacob is God's son and firstborn: "Israel is my son, even my firstborn" Exodus 4:22. Solomon is God's son "He shall build an house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son": 2 Samuel 7:13-14. Ephraim is God's firstborn: "for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn." Jeremiah 31:9 (who is God's firstborn? Israel or Ephraim?). Adam is the son of God "Adam, which was the son of God." Luke 3:38. Well then, was Jesus the only begotten son of God? Read Psalms 2:7 "I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me (King David, King), Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.".
http://www.mostmerciful.com/way.htm
You have not proved anything to make Jesus god. If you want to continue debating properly, i suggest you stop bringing up refuted points or answer my rebuttal and show me how it might be wrong. May God bless you. loyal
Me personally? None.
The verse says ALL of the holy spirit rested in Jesus.
The glass is not full. Humans only say it is full. But it is not full. God would not make such a confusing connection. God is not the author of confusion as corithinians says.
I think that's figurative, but i might be wrong. God also says 'where are you Adam?' but God is All-Knowing. Another figurative verse.
So we destroyed the relationship yet God could not make another one? He's All-Powerful.
I learn people's understandings and so on. I like to see how a person thinks. loyal
truly amazing post!!! Soulfire
I've already told you - my argument is finished. I've confirmed my thoughts, anything that I post further would be redundant. All this debate has consisted of is me quoting verses from the Bible, you saying that I am wrong about them, and then trying to turn them into something else.
I am done with it, I see nothing more to gain from this topic. You haven't changed my thoughts a bit, in fact, you've cemented in my mind that Jesus is God, the scripture exists, perhaps you are the one in denial about it? Islam doesn't cut it for me, and Islam is wrong for me. loyal
Actually let me tell the truth. You posted, i corrected, you fell silent. You refuse to consider that you might be wrong, which means you do not seek the truth. I did not twist anything. For example when Jesus said 'before Abraham, i am', you said it meant Jesus was declaring himself to be YHWH. Yet the setence does not even make sense if we interpret it from your point of view!!! 'before Abraham, YHWH' does not make sense. Scholars say, and some Bible versions give a correct translation 'i existed before Abraham'. You're claiming victory yet you didn't do anything in this debate. I have no idea how you confirmed Jesus is god without actually getting an argument right. I am sorry you are in denial. It's also strange how you think Islam is not for you, yet you do not know anything about it. We debate Jesus, and you somehow come to a conclusion about a different subject! To prove how badly i won this debate i shall quote nine arguments. This too me ages so there might be a few errors in numbering or something. Summary of the debate: 1) loyal's comment a) Mark 12:29-summary: "OUR God is One" therefore Jesus has a god who is One not three in one. 1) soulfire's response a) -summary: "You don't understand." 1) loyal's response b) -summary: "When Jesus 'the Lord OUR God is One'. He was talking about having a god...Notice that Jesus never said 'three in one'? There's a difference between saying 'three in one' and 'one'." 1) soulfire's response b) -summary: "He was saying that God is seperate from Him, which is why he says "Our God"." 1) loyal's response c) -summary: "So the trinity is completely seperate? So when did Christianity become a polytheistic religion?...It says "our God is One" so obviously Jesus is saying that his God is One. Not three in one... Just one. " 1) soulfire's response c)-summary: "the idea of the trinity is three seperate entities, or parts, of one God the Father. Our God is One, Jesus is a part of that God, the Son of that God." 1) loyal's response d) summary: "How can Jesus be a part of God, and be human as well? How can God need to learn AND be All-Knowing? How can God be weak yet All-Powerful?... It's impossible" 2) loyal's comment a) Jesus never said he was god. I challenge you to find me a verse where Jesus said "i am god". 2) soulfire's response a) -summary: "If only it were so black and white. There is no verse where Jesus flat out says "I am God." Soulfire also says that Jesus says he is god indirectly. 2) loyal's response b) -summary: "The multitude of verses you gave were random people saying 'i think Jesus is god'. I want what Jesus said. Surely if God is Jesus. He would let us know. Or is God a forgetful guy?" 2) soulfire's response b) -summary: "The Jews ask Jesus that if He is truely the Messiah, why doesn't He say it. Jesus replies with "I have told you, yet ye believe not." Basically, Jesus says He already told people what He is - God. ...Jesus did let the world know, through the miracles He performed, through His claims, through His apostles..." 2) loyal's response c) -most of it: "When the Jews ask Jesus if he is the Messiah, Jesus says he has already told them. He has NOT told them he is god. The sentence says Messiah. Jesus did not tell anyone he is god. People do not believe Jesus is god because of the numerous problems. E.g. did Jesus die? Yep. Did God die? Nope. Is Jesus is god? Yes according to christianity. Huh? Then how can Jesus be god if God did not die and Jesus did? Jesus' miracles are not unique. Elisha, peace and blessings upon him, in the Old Testament also did all of Jesus' miracles and more. 2) soulfire's response c) -summary: "Jesus does not come out with the words "I am God" Jesus also never said the exact four words, "I am a prophet" or the exact four words "I am a man," but we know he was both a prophet and a man. It is not necessary for Jesus to say the exact phrase 2) loyal's response c)-all: "You would expect God to say He is God. Is this a coincidence? I think not. If you make a claim on someone, then you would expect that someone to back your claim up. If I claim somebody is a king, you would expect that king to say he is a king, at least once. In the OT God says he is God several times, why not once with Jesus in the NT? Did God change his ways? I think not, since the OT says God does not change. It is very necessary. How in the world is the whole world supposed to know that God has (supposedly) made himself into a man if the man does not say! Every hindu recarnation announced he was god!!! Why not Jesus? Here are the passages from the OT where God says he is God: Gen 35:11 And God said unto him, I [am] God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins Gen 46:3 And he said, I [am] God, the God of thy father: fear not to go down into Egypt; for I will there make of thee a great nation: Exd 16:12 I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel: speak unto them, saying, At even ye shall eat flesh, and in the morning ye shall be filled with bread; and ye shall know that I [am] the LORD your God. Exd 20:2 I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Psa 46:10 Be still, and know that I [am] God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth. Psa 50:7 Hear, O my people, and I will speak; O Israel, and I will testify against thee: I [am] God, [even] thy God. Psa 81:10 I [am] the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt: open thy mouth wide, and I will fill it. Isa 41:10 Fear thou not; for I [am] with thee: be not dismayed; for I [am] thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness. Isa 45:3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call [thee] by thy name, [am] the God of Israel. Isa 45:5 I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else, [there is] no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and[there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me, Jer 32:27 Behold, I [am] the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me? Eze 13:9 And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I [am] the Lord GOD. Eze 20:19 I [am] the LORD your God; walk in my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them; Eze 20:20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I [am] the LORD your God. Eze 23:49 And they shall recompense your lewdness upon you, and ye shall bear the sins of your idols: and ye shall know that I [am] the Lord GOD. So as we can see, God is not shy to say I am God. So if Jesus is God, then how come he never said it once like the God of the old testament? This is not a coincidence. Infact Jesus worships God. There are lots of verses, here is one: Luke 4 5 The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. 6 And he said to him, "I will give you all their authority and splendor, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. 7 So if you worship me, it will all be yours." 8 Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.'" Also: John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' " Jesus declares himself to be the Messiah John 4: 25The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us." 26Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he." Jesus declares himself to be a prophet Matthew 13:57And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown and in his own house is a prophet without honor." Jesus declares himself to be a man Lots of places where Jesus says he is the son of man. ------------------------------------------------- 3) soulfire's comment a) -summary: "1 Timothy 3:16 The "manifest in the flesh" part is referring to Jesus." 3) loyal's response a) -summary: "timothy said this, not Jesus. So this verse supports a duality not a trinity." 3) soulfire's response b)-summary: "But does it matter who said it? Not really, it's not the person who says it that is important, it's what is being said, and it's clear that the Bible says "God was manifest into flesh" which means Jesus is God." 3) loyal's response b) -summary: " It matters very much WHO said it...if osma bin laden starts telling everyone about how much he despises the violence from some Muslims, every Muslim shall be listening. It matters alot who said it. 3) soulfire's response c)-most of it: "you did make a small point about who is saying it. the word of the Bible is infallible and subject to NO error. Meaning that whoever made the claims is irrelevant, it's what they are saying that matters. Alright, so the verse supports a duality - but it in no way refutes the idea of a trinity. The idea of a trinity comes into play later when the Bible talks about God's Holy Spirit, which is worshiped as the "third leg" of the Trinity. 3) loyal's response c) -most of it: "The Bible is subject to hundreds of errors http://www.islamhope.co.nr/articles/corrupted1.html for example. It matters who said it. If some random John disciple says Jesus is god, i don't care. He is not trustworthy even in the first place. Hmmm...it is possible to include a trinity. But the holy spirit is not a third of god, he's all of god according to Christianity." -------------------------------------- 4) soulfire's comment a) -most of it: "John 3:10 I and the Father are One." 4) loyal's response a) -most of it: "This verse is quoted out of context. The complete passage, starting with John 10:23, reads as follows:" John 10:23-30 is quoted. " They are one in PURPOSE. Just as no one shall pluck them out of Jesus' hand, so too shall no one pluck them out of God's hand. Need more proof? Then read: "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us:...that they may be one, even as we are one." John 17:20-22 Is all of mankind also part of the "Trinity"? Nope. It's obvious that they are One in purpose. The only alternative is that mankind is some sort of trinity too. 4) soulfire's response b)-summary: "Look at this: John 10:24-26 Jesus told them that He was God - the Christ, the Son of God, the Messiah, the Savior. Jesus is talking to God, wanting the people to be united under God and Christ. Jesus isn't at all making mankind part of the Trinity, He wants unity - not the division of religion we have today. He wants the entire world Christian, united just as God the Father and Jesus the Son are united. 4) loyal's response b) -most of it: " That's not what it says at all. Christ means Messiah. The people said 'tell us if you are the Messiah clearly'. It's talking about purpose. It's explained clearly in my post. Noone can pluck the sheep out of Jesus' hand just like noone can pluck the sheep out of God's hand. They are one in purpose, to lead believers to good. ...that THEY may be ONE, AS WE are ONE... If Jesus is talking about unity, then that removes any christian comment about the verse saying Jesus and the father are one. Because they are not one in soul/spirit/body. You have provided a reason yourself. Unity. So don't claim that it means he and God are one in a trinity. 4) soulfire's response c)-most of it: "And what exactly does Messiah mean? The divine leader of the Jews - God, in human form basically. And "Noone can pluck the sheep out of Jesus' hand just like noone can pluck the sheep out of God's hand" tells me nothing. Alright, Jesus is saying "that They may be ONE" He is referring to the Church. The people who follow Christ, He wants them to be united, JUST AS WE ARE ONE, or just as Jesus and the Father are one, because Jesus is talking to God in that verse." 4) loyal replied that Messiah does not mean divine leader. A quote from a Jew was used.http://www.aish.com/tishabav/tishabavdefault/The_Messiah_in_Juda It's obvious the verse 'JUST AS WE ARE ONE' means like we are one, you are one. And that's what the Bible says infact. ------------------------------------------- 5) soulfire's comment a)-summary: "Philippians 2:5-8" 5) loyal's response a) -summary: "That means they are two different people and Jesus is not god, ONLY IN THE FORM OF GOD. It also means that this is a contradiction to John 14:28 5) soulfire's response b)-summary: "Yes, God is equal to Jesus, and they are two different people but they are both God...when he says that "the Father is greater than I" it is Jesus being meek and modest, for He did not want to steal the glory from Heaven." 5) loyal's response b) -summary: "So basically Jesus lied? Is Jesus an extreme believer? He's SOOOO modest that he has to lie about his Father being greater?! Lol. Let me tell you that God does not need praise. God is All-Powerful, Absolute. He does not need Jesus lying. It says 'the Father is greater than I'. It's plain and simple. God is greater than Jesus. Why? Because Jesus is saying it. If Jesus and god are equal in divine form, then Jesus would have said 'while i'm on earth'. The sentence at the moment in john 14:28 says Jesus is lesser than the father." 5) soulfire's response c)- : "Jesus didn't lie, He just didn't say "I am God" I read it, and the word greater YOU are misinterpreting." 5) loyal's response c) -summary: "You did not answer my reply...You do not say how (i am misinterpreting)." ------------------------------------------------- 6) soulfire's comment a)-summary: "1 John 3:16" 6) loyal's response a) -summary: "that verse is wrong. Jesus hesistated to die (in the Bible). He prayed THREE TIMES not to die. What sort of willing person prays not to die? Three times?! 6) soulfire's response b)-summary: "Jesus did not pray not to die. Jesus prayed 3 times to make sure that this was the will of God." 6) loyal's response )b -most of it: "Jesus prayed to die. He said "let this cup pass from me". Now what's he talking about? He wants the cup of death taken away. he says that God wills what He wills. Mark 14:36 The second sentence about wills, is talking about Jesus saying to God, 'don't do what i want, do what you want'. Jesus is here is recognising how wise God is. He's asking for the cup of death to be taken from him and for God to change His mind. Jesus hesistated to die (in the Bible). He prayed THREE TIMES not to die. What sort of willing person prays not to die? Three times?! 6) soulfire's response c) -most of it: "How do you get "take this cup from me" means cup of death? You supported my point when you talked about wills. Jesus wanted to be sure that His death was God's will." 6) loyal's response c) -most of it: "Cup is figurative. Jesus is not talking about some bronze cup he does not want anymore. He is talking about the cup of death. He does not want to drink from it. He prayed that God would do His will not Jesus's will. This is because Jesus recognises that God is Greater...But Jesus does not want it to happen, even though he will do what God says." ------------------------------------------------- 7) soulfire's comment a)-most of it: "Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." 7) loyal's response a)-most of it: "Jesus said he had NOT come to bring peace Matthew 10:34. Jesus is a COUNSELLOR. Now what prediction do we find in John? John 14:16 he will give you another Counselor Do you notice how it says ANOTHER counseller? And do you notice how Jesus IS a counseller? So we are getting another Jesus according to this verse!" Now, what is Jesus? Matthew 21:11 and Luke 24:19 say that he was a prophet of God. So we are getting another prophet staying with us forever? Yep. A prophet only dies when his teachings die." 7) soulfire's response b)-most of it: "Perhaps that is the second counsellor the verse is referring to. Notice how it is the multitude of people talking, not anyone important. 7) loyal's response b)-most of it: "So Jesus randomly says "here's another counseller", but he's talking about himself?!! (they are) Two different prophecies. One is about Jesus' coming, another is about a future prophet. It seems you have contradicted yourself terribly. You said earlier in the post that it does not matter WHO said it. Now you are saying noone important is speaking. Which will it be? They think he is a prophet, which is what he is. Prophets do not turn into god 7) soulfire's response c)-most of it: "Um, could be. And perhaps He was referring to a different counsellor, or to Himself coming again, but if He was - how can you say that it was Muhammed? You can't, you can just assume. And you know what assuming does...It's not really contradicting - but slightly in the sense. The reason I said that no one important was speaking was because no one had yet to learn about Jesus. Jesus was a prophet, but also SO much more." 7) loyal's response c)-most of it: "You're right that I cannot assume that the prophet Muhammed, peace and blessings upon him, was prophesised here. ...Since Jesus said another, it means another. It does not mean the same thing." Added note: soulfire agreed with my argument when he said: "And perhaps He was referring to a different counsellor" which was point! "You did contradict yourself. When i said that some random people said Jesus is god, and i do not care about them. You replied that they said it, and it's in the Bible.Now however when i say that some random said Jesus is less than a god, (to appeal to you not to me), you say that you do not care who said it. You are either a prophet or God. You cannot be both. A prophet brings a message from God to the people. He is the postman. God speaks to the people directly. Bob talks to Micky directly in he same room (no need to write letters and post them). Thus Bob and Micky need no postman. In the same way, if Jesus is god (which he is not), then how can he be a prophet also?" -------------------------------------------------- soulfire's comment a)-summary: "John 14:8-9"
loyal's response a)-summary: "contradictions: No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him]. (John 1:1?)
Contradictions to John 1:18: I saw the LORD(1 Kings 22:19) I saw the Lord(Amos 9:1) soulfire's response b)-most of it: "Let us follow the order of the Bible. This is the beginning of Jesus' story, and at this point, nobody hath seen God, that is until Jesus tells them "He who hath seen me hath seen God".
I fail to see how these contradict anything. 1 Kings 22:19 is saying that the LORD is sitting on the throne, (whereas Lord refers to Jesus). And the Lord standing upon the altar, that contradicts nothing either. loyal's response b)-summary: "Wrong. If Jesus is god then anyone who sees him will have seen God, WITHOUT KNOWING IT. It does not matter whether you know it or not, but it still happens.
Lord does not refer to Jesus. King David was also called Lord. I ask you to worship David, if you worship Jesus because he was called Lord. Anyone can see the contradiction. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him]. And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. (1 Kings 22:19) I saw the Lord standing upon the altar...(Amos 9:1) Now, see the contradiction? No man has seen God at any time. But the guy in Amos and 1 Kings BOTH SAW GOD." soulfire's response c)-response: "We'll pretend that made sense."
soulfire repeats argument that Jesus was not born. loyal's response c)-summary: "1 Kings 22:19 + Amos 9:1
These people have seen God, yet the verse claims that no man has seen God!" Added note: It's obvious soulfire cannot answer this contradiction. Anyone can see it. The verse claims that no man has seen God, yet two others verses in the Old Testament, claim they have. ------------------------------------------------- 9) soulfire's comment a)-summary: "2 Corinthians 4:4" 9) loyal's response a)-summary: "Funny how God tells the Israelities to worship Him only and not make or have ANY images at all of Him. Plus, did Jesus say this? Nope. No man has seen God. So how could the author know that Jesus looks like God?" 9) soulfire's response b)-summary: "that command is given in the Old Testament, before Jesus' time. Since the author of the Bible is under divine inspiration, as most Christians believe, surely He would know that this man is in the image of God. 9) loyal's response b)-most of it: "The author is under divine inspiration? So all the scribes corrupting the text were also divinly inspired. Where in the world did you get such an idea? So because God said something in the Old Testament it does not count any more?! Lol that is crazy! Many of God's commands were eternal. Including, the ten commandments. Infact let's see Jesus' opinions: Matthew 5:17 So Jesus has not come to abolish the Law? Yep. So the ten commandments remain. Besides, Jesus is not god. You have failed to prove this. 9) soulfire's response c)-summary: "Alright, I admit, could've worded it better - but when did I say it doesn't count? I was just saying that that law was before Jesus' time, and because Jesus is God, He can be worshipped." 9) loyal's response c)-"you (have) failed to prove whatsoever that Jesus is god. You have not even brought more than five verses saying he is god. And none of them were spoken by Jesus." Soulfire
Let me tell you this:
Telling me I am misinterpresting or otherwise misunderstanding a verse is not correcting me. The only reason I "fell silent" is because it's pointless to argue with you. You won't change your thoughts, and your attempts to prove me wrong failed (at least to me). It is CLEAR to at least 2 BILLION people that JESUS is GOD. If you don't want to believe that, then sorry for you, it is your loss. loyal
peace be upon you.
I did not tell you anything. I explained. You still haven't been able to refute my explanation of the supposed "i am" verse. 2 billion does not make it right. Soulfire
Did I say it makes it right? Not at all... If I did, please show me, and I will correct it. I merely said that 2 billion+ people believe Jesus is God. And you did explain, after telling me that I misinterpreted the verse. Yet you are completely blind to the fact that you can be misinterpreting them as well. It is right there in front of you. The only verse you can hold against me with any credibility at all is when Jesus says "For the father is greater than I" - and I already explained to YOU what that meant, you didn't listen. And, even if Jesus does not say the 3 words "I am God" Jesus does say "I am the way, the truth, and the life - the only way to the father is through me." That means that every religion which does not recognize the significance of Jesus is wrong (but we're not here to discuss other religions). When Jesus says "the only way to the Father is through me." That means (at least to me) that He is significant to God, significant in God's plan, and all the scriptural support is there to say that Jesus is God. I would like to give a verse which we may have already discussed before, but to me, it says quite clearly (and I will empasize it so you don't miss it) that Jesus is God. 1 Timothy 3:16 Great is the mystery of godliness, God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. That should set off some bells and whistles. I highly doubt I could misinterpret the statement "God was manifest in the flesh." Of course, you'll probably say I am wrong about it and proceed to try and change the meaning of it. Listen to this as well: 1 John 5:11-12 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. So if you don't have Jesus, you don't have life. loyal
peace be upon you.
please read http://www.mostmerciful.com/way.htm for the jesus being the way. 1 Timothy 3:16 has been corrupted. One website says it originally read "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: which was manifest in the flesh.." This was then later (as seen previously), ever so subtly changed to "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh…." Thus, the doctrine of the "incarnation" was born. You did not explain about 'greater'. I'm not going to reply to your next post here, because the debate is over. may God bless you. Soulfire
There's no credibility to the website you gave, it's someone expressing their opinions about Bible verses which have no bearing on anything whatsoever. I could make a website, take a Bible verse, change the words and blame it on other people. I could make a website that said people were changing the Bible. Again, there's no credibility here.
If you care deeply enough, you can look in my past posts and find it. The problem is that there are more than one Hebrew word that means greater, and the Hebrew word used in the Bible (which was translated to "greater" in English) means greater in position, not greater in nature. My parallel to that was that the president, or prime minister is greater in position to your average joe, but not by nature (because he/she is still human). Much like God (at least while Jesus was on earth) was "greater" than Jesus, but Jesus was still God. It's more detailed in my past posts.
I said that awhile ago, but I felt like I needed to come back. You're correct, the debate is over, so let us go our ways in peace. God bless you as well, thanks for the debate. abedalmged
Peace be upon you all,
Note: Prophet noah has spent and lived haundreds of years (about 900 years) doing what? inviting people to believe in one God and reminding people that there is a meet one day with this great god. So, what i have seen in this forums is a long long argue , i'm happy for that, but when someone goes away from the subject neglecting the facts then it will be boring and no use to talk!! so lets speack about specific things and leave laughs aside. for these i present to all the forums' members this Video to watch, because i know that everybody came to this post to get something valuable and not to leave it with clear hands. so get the value and see this and there is more for those who wants the values, nothing to loose watch and you will know why some people are spending a lot of hours writing long long posts
http://www.harunyahya.com/m_video_detail.php?api_id=1124 and there is more : www.harunyahya.com Peace be upon you all randy
I would suggest reading John 8 for an idea of the Biblical backing for the belief that Jesus is God (since Biblical backing would probably be the strongest motivation for such a doctrine). If you can not read ancient Greek, I would suggest looking online for either a literal translation (the Analytical-Literal Translation or Young's, for instance), the Modern King James Version, or one that will link you directly to a lexicon (using Strong's numbers, probably). The MKJV would probably be easiest, and they did a pretty good job with this passage.
Anyway, read the whole chapter if you want (it is long), but pay attention to verses 28, 24, and 58. Many translations will say "I am he", and this may actually communicate part of the meaning, but the fact that people supposedly wanted to kill Jesus for what he said makes that interpretation alone extremely unlikely. The fact is that Jesus just said, "I am". The first time, people didn't seem to be very offended, so his enemies at that point probably thought he was simply calling himself the "son of humanity" by saying "I am [he]". However, some people come to believe in him at this point, and it is likely that they took the other meaning (which I will get to). As the scene continues, Jesus continues to use this wording. The next two times he uses it, people try to kill him. To understand why, you have to understand that "I am" was the name of the Hebrew God (Yahweh, as a transliteration). Although Jesus may have been speaking Aramaic at this point (and it was recorded in Greek) instead of Hebrew, he used the same verb form and left off the object when these were not entirely grammatically appropriate. Verse 53 in particular is important, because Jesus was speaking about the past and used a present tense verb (I am). If Jesus were not trying to call himself Yahweh, he would have said that he "was" before Abraham (this would have incited a lot of anger as well, but at least he would have not been explicit in calling himself God). John here is using the Greek word "eimi" as a substitute for Yahweh (as well as allowing for Jesus' rather clever puns). livilou
As far as the creation timeline, here it is:
Day 1: The Heaven and the Earth, light and darkness. 1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2: And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3: And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4: And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5: And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. Day 2: Dividing firmament from water, sky and earth 6: And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7: And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8: And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. Day 3: Making dry land appear, creating plants 9: And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10: And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. 11: And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12: And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 13: And the evening and the morning were the third day. Day 4: Creating the Sun, Moon and the Stars 14: And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16: And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17: And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18: And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19: And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. Day 5: Creating every kind air and water animal 20: And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. 21: And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 22: And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. 23: And the evening and the morning were the fifth day. Day 6: The beast of the earth and Man 24: And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. 25: And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 26: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28: And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. 29: And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30: And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. 31: And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. While plants now cannot exist without light of some kind, if God wanted it to be so, it would be. I'm a firm believer that God created things in this order for a reason, I may not know what it is, but since He is perfect, then that means that His plan is perfect. And since I have no idea how long His day was, I don't know how long animals were on the earth before He created man. Bikerman
I'm going to make it a mission to follow each posting of this reference with a health warning. This is a (or a bunch of) islamic creationists. I had not come across the particular religious sect before but having spent a little time looking into it I would strongly advise anyone contemplating a trip into this area to : a) Wear some waterproof clothing. Otherwise you will get drenched by the sentimentalist waves errupting from the video material b) Don't eat before the trip. The nauseous nature of the material (in terms of being patronising and 'so greasy you can fry chips in it') has to be experienced to be believed. c) Make sure you have a frontal lobotomy (preferrably full, though partial may suffice for the more 'imaginative'). The unbelievable nature of the material is such that any normal person may rebel instinctively against the blizzard of scientific and factual errors. In order to avoid this brain-surgery is recommended. Best wishes Chris Josephwweaver
[well said
jjnr1
I thought you might be interested in an extract from The constellations of philosphy by Alain De Botton in regards to Nietzsche view on christianity.
"Having a 'Christian' Perspective on difficulty is not limited to members of the christian church; it is for Nietzsche a permanent psychological possibility. We all become christians when we profess indifference to what we secretly long for but do not have; when we blithely say that we do not need love or a position in the world, money or success, creativity or health - while the corners of our mouths twitch with bitterness; and we wage silent wars against what we have publicly renounced, firing shots over the parapet, sniping from the trees." There is some very interesting quotes and views on christianity from Nietzsche perspective. He also relates the views of the entire christian faith on the period that it was introduced and says that it is not sensible to believe in it in this day and age. alwom
Why do christians calle the triuness of God the Trinity when trinity isnt in the bible, however God head is, so why not use the biblical word for it instead of mans word ? any other bible scholars ever wonder this.
alwom
sorry if that came out the wrong way , just throwing out a thought.
mike1reynolds
This thread is totally lame, Islam is the most brain washed and twisted religion on the planet. As much as I look down my nose at Christianity, you Muslims can’t come up with a SINGLE valid theological criticism of Christianity. That is because you have the only theology on the planet that is actually inferior to the primitive nature of Christian theology. No other religion on the planet has a more primitive theology than these two, and Islam is the only hate filled religion on the planet that riles against any other religion in its very scriptures. No other religion on the planet actually encodes religious bigotry and attacks on other religions within its very scriptures.
The Qur’an was not dictated to Mohammed by an angel, much less the Archangel Gabriel, it was dictated by a demon. It has a demonic message of hate and intolerance against all other religions. Mohammed was deceived by a demon and as a result he created the world’s most popular demonic religion. dlougha
@Alwom
I totally agree with you about the "Trinity". it is unbiblical and unreasonable to use it. The Bible talks about Godhead, Gods nature and unity of God, yet the distinctiveness of God. The Gospel clearly teaches that Jesus is Gods one and only son by nature and not by faith or adoption. The Gospel clearly teaches that Jesus is part of the Divine nature of God, but individually distinct from God our Father (yahweh). We can refer to Adam and Eve as "Man" in the overall sense, yet Adam is "The Man" in his distinctive name. Likewise Jesus is God in his divine nature, but the Proper title of God is his father Yahewh. We have Humankind, and all people are members of the human family. Angels are not Gods but belong to the Angelic nature and realm. Jesus is God because he belongs to the Godhead, and nature of God (part of God), Word of God. Yet Jesus is distinct from God our father Yahweh who is The God. Jesus is not another God because he is part of the divine and only one God Yahewh. He is the word of God, just as my arm or my had is part of me, yet My hand or arm is not distinctively "ME". Likewise Jesus is part of God (word of God). Yet Jesus is not God Yahweh himself. If I lose my Arm, I am still "Me". Likewise Yahweh, with out Jesus is still Yahweh God. But Jesus with out his father is not destinctively "Yahweh God". From my studies of the Gospel in its entirety and the early writings of the Church, This is how Jesus the God and Man is described in the Scriptures. For me it is very simple, to many it is very hard. @Loyal, While Muslims try to point out from the Gospel that Jesus is not God or by nature the Son of God, It would be interesting for them to prove the other part to prove their claim...If Jesus was just a holy prophet and nothing more, then why is it that prophet Muhammad or anyone else who ever lived, fail miserably to have the same attributes that Jesus has in the Gospel. Since Jesus is called "Gods son" many times in the Gospel, Do you claim also that Muhammad is Gods son also?? Since the Gospel teaches that Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, but also teaches that God is the alpha and omega (beginning and the end), do you claim that Muhammad is also the Alpha and omega (beginning and the end)?? Since the Gospel teaches that through Gods word (jesus Christ) all things were created. Do you claim that Muhammad also created all things? Since the Peter calls Jesus the "Author of life" in the Gospel, do you claim that Muhammad is also the Author of life? I could go on and on about the discriptions of Jesus in the Gospel. And my Question is to you....If Jesus was nothing more than a prophet and was equal or even less than Muhammad in your thinking, then prove to me that Muhammad or any man can have the same descriptions given to Jesus in the Gospel?? You said many times that Jesus never claimed to be God. Jesus said in Johns Gospel that His testimony about himself to ordinary man was not valid, yet there were others who testified to his sonship, Divinity and eternal nature as Gods natural son. John the baptist was prophesied as the one who would proclaim and make way for the Lord. The Gospel claims that Jesus was the one whom John proclaimed, John proclaimed and made way for Jesus who is the Lord. It is easy to deny, but when you deny something, you need to give an alternative to support your denial. Your alternative is to prove that Muhammad can fulfil all the discriptions given to Jesus in the Gospel. If you can not do that, then your denials are just empty words without substance. mike1reynolds
The Trinity is a logical outflow of the Jewish duality to God. Jehovah is inherently masculine, while Qodesh Rauch, the Hebrew term for the Holy Spirit, is a term with a feminine gender. Also, the Trinity of God is parallel to the trinity within each of us of body, spirit and soul. Son, Holy Spirit, and Holy Father.
Muslims not only deny that God can incarnate as a man, but they also implicitly contradict any real connection between God and man. At the start of his ministry when the masses wanted to stone him to death for blasphemy when he called himself the Son of God (John 10:34) he quotes Psalms 82:6 “Ye are all gods!” In other words, the breath of life in each and every one of us is nothing other than God. There is not life, no consciousness without God. God is the infinite future of all souls that survive, living in oneness as if a single being. God is LITERALLY us in the infinite future. That is why God knows everything about us. God is all life that ever was and God remembers being each and every one of us. The only other religion on the planet that so vehemently denies what should otherwise be this extremely obvious link between God and man, is the Mexican shamanistic traces of the blood thirsty Aztec religion. It is a fundamental demonic scheme to try and separate man from his divine power. Demons want man to believe that, like them, we have no part in infinity. Demons are not part of God and want to fool any soul they can into believing that they are also in the same boat with the demons. The Muslims religion then takes this deception a step further and denies the very existence of demons!!! What an obvious demonic ploy. Manofgames
as far as i know (which is about as far is as far as i know), christians believe Jesus was the son of God, and was god at the same time, if you catch my drift.
its similar to a family, in the fact they are different but they are the same as far as i know, muslims accept /hindus (i can never remember which) believe he was alive but was a prophet, but was not god. thats where we get CE, because they all accept he walked the earth chrismen
I think that we will never know why? But I do think that Jesus was God therefore he did send himself. Maybe it is easier for people to connect with Jesus than a flying white ball or whatever God looks like.
Deuc
The saddest part of this entire discussion is that even if all four Gospels had a verse that had no textual variants that was preserved in every single Bible that had ever been copied that quoted Jesus saying "I am God in the flesh." you would still find an excuse to not believe.
Nothing more needs to be said. Believing in allah or believing in Jesus as God both take faith. Some have it, some don't. yagnyavalkya
Neither was Jesus God nor was he the son of God he was just and ordinary person
Now Mohammad was just like that the Quran or the bible was written by Humans Bikerman
You sound like you think that faith is a plus (ie you either have it or you lack it). Is that necessarily the case? Could the atheist equally say that faith is a minus, not dissimilar to a virus. Some people are quite normal and unaffected by the virus, others have the virus and therefore have faith. Now, I realise that this might sound insulting to Christians. How dare I suggest that they have a virus. But I hope you can see that this is no different to what you do when you portray faith as something that you have or you lack - in other words atheists are lacking something. The implication is clearly that faith is the normal state of humans and that lack of faith is somehow not normal. Atheists might find that view as insulting as some Christians would find my version of it. liljp617
I don't know, I might be more inclined to follow a flying, unexplainable orb than a human being making outrageous claims that dozens before him had made.... Related topics
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