do you think one day , USA may collapse like late soviet empire did.
and will this produce good results for the remain of world or
and what can be the possible date for this.
At this time i read history books about rome,ottoman , aleksander,
all this empires collapsed -may be they consider themselves very strong-
No, collapse of the United States would result in a devastated world economy, and worldwide proliferation of small, medium, large and catastrophic military arms.
Perhaps you're not quite aware of just how much the US does for the world's economy AND safety. Perhaps it would be fun to see just what would happen though.
Well this question is completely ridiculous. Everyone who voted ‘YES’ needs to stop putting absinth in their morning martini.
Regardless of safety and economy, which would emphatically disappear, there is also the matter of active propagation of modern society
People think the U.S. is evil because we're the only nation who has the balls to confront conflict instead of shying away and pretending the conflict doesn't exist.
Without the U.S., well, we'll just say the world will fall with them.
Personally I don't think the US is going anywhere. Alot of people can't focus on the good things we do, they can only focus on the war. To us the (former) Soviet Union as an exaple is absurd, that was a totally differant culture and values.
Theres an old saying "When we do right, no one remembers....when we do wrong, no one forgets."
i hope it will not ,If U.S.A collapes,it is so danger for the world
I don't think the US will collapse. More a slide down the slippery slope. As world markets open up and they have to abandon their protectionist trade policies, that will make other countries (China and India in particular) much stronger. USA and the EU will have difficulty competing on the world stage. US will slowly slip down, just like Britain did after the Victorian age when she ruled the world.
i travel in pacific more than 2 years
and i met a lot of people from different countries
usa, canada , britain,germany,austria,norwey, netherland
around 200 people
some of them really was expert of economy,stock market
and 75-80 % of this people believe in 15 years usa is going to
wish is different
reality is different
Our own experts can't predict that stuff. If ANYBODY could they'd be filthy stinking rich. The people that say that are only wishing it.
Like every empire, U.S will also fall.
The outcome depends on who becomes strongest afterwards.
But I seriously doubt that it would be more devious than the U.S.
Fall or emerge.
My bet is on fall, but I could also invision a single global society without the need for 'empires'.
If we're all going to survive, we're all going to need to work as one. We can no longer live seperate and apart.
Of course No.
In general, the collapse of any nation produces always negative effects on the rest of the world. This effect is, however, proportional to the nation's size. A collapse of a nation such as the USA, will definitely produces negative effects as large as catastrophes to the rest of the world. Some examples to support my point are:
1- The collapse of the former USSR resulted in several wars, terrorism, and several social and economical problems to the whole world. The world is still suffering from the effects of that collapse.
2- The collapse of Yugoslavia caused several ethnic wars and other disturbances particularly in that region.
The world is getting more integrated together and the United States of America acts like the center of this world. Therefore, whenever the center suffers, the whole world suffers: I'm sure everybody still remembers 9/11, as the whole world is still suffering from its concequences!
Conclusion: pray and hope that no nation collapses, specially the USA.
The US will no collapse, it is a different kind of empire. Long time ago power came from weapons and brute force, the US has that as well as many other well developed fields, such as science, tech, human resources, arts, etc. Perhaps a war could make it collapse, imagine, those anti-US countries with nuclear weapons agreeing to join forces for no other reason, just to erase the US from the map. Imagine a hostile leader as crazy a G.W Bush, making coalitions with countries experts in guerrilla, terrorist attacks etc. All of them attacking the US at once. Scary, and not very likely to happen.
i was recently thinking about this very topic
one day, even if it is in thousands of years, the United States will collapse
odds are it won't be in our lifetime, but by the way some things in the current administration have been done, i wouldnt be all that sure...
when the USA falls, i am confident that there will be
1)widespread chaos, people thinking that the first modern democracy failed, their country will soon follow
2) people will suffer economically. the united states of america is a huge trading power, and exports in many many countries will fall rapidly.
3)it will be very dangerous for people everywhere. when rome fell, there was danger of being attacked by foriegn enemies. these were barbarians riding horses and wielding swords. now imagine what that would have been like had those tribesmen had, lets just say WoMD's. without there being any defence against these invaders and now the invaders being stronger than they were back in ancient times, it will not be a very happy place to live. not very happy at all.
Without the U.S. - we lose democracy, we lose freedom, we lose individual rights. We will be controlled by radical governments who strip away all personal freedom.
I disagree, Soulfire. There are many other democracies (some more democratic than the United States, where only if you are extremely rich, male, white, come from one of only two parties and are old can you lead the country) in the world. It's also doubtful if the US is even a champion of individual rights anymore, when you lock up people in Guantanamo Bay in violation of the human rights and practise stress techniques and extraordinary rendition.
A couple of years ago in Australia we had a referendum to see if we wanted to become a Republic. One of the least popular models was a US style form of president. As it turned out, the one they chose was also a dud, and so we stayed how we were.
It seems from the information (however true or not) you are not from the US, and I take great personal affront at your comments. We elected a President, for better or worse, did you? You have a Monarchy...get off your high horse, your no better off than we are. There was once a time that it was said "The Sun never set on the British Empire"...is that true???
Those who live is glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
You're all anti-USA and pro-England aren't you? Do you still carry a grudge? There isn't enough democracy in the world, but I wouldn't expect you to understand, again - you live under monarchy. Um, forgive us for locking up people who have committed crimes? Would you rather have us let them run free? Perhaps maybe some of them can fly airplanes into your Big Ben? And Guantanamo Bay is VERY humane. Why aren't you complaining about terrorists beheading people on film and sending it to people? We could be as humane as they are...
A monarchy? Hahaha the UK has an elected prime minister. Where have you been?
Actually, the first time Bush was in office, he was not elected. The judicial system put him in power. After Bush got caught cheating to win the election (by having 20,000 african americans disqualified from voting), in every possible scenerio, if there had been an official re-count, Bush would have lost.
I have nothing against americans at all, in fact I have a few american friends. But her politics suck, and she is most definatly not a champion of civil rights anymore. Try comparing the patriot act sometime to the enabling act that nazi Germany put into effect during WW2. I think you'll find some shocking similarities. Not to mention the civilian casulties that the US government has inflicted upon Iraq. A country that had nothing to do with 9/11 (Bush has even admitted that on video - refer to the documentary Why We Fight if you would like to see for yourself)
Yes, America will fall as every other great empire has, you are no exception. I think this will have a negative effect on the world, but the end of democracy and freedom? Come on, please don't be so vain as to think that your one country holds the entire fabric of freedom together.
That sounds like something Bush would say
[quote="bangala1- The collapse of the former USSR resulted in several wars, terrorism, and several social and economical problems to the whole world. The world is still suffering from the effects of that collapse.
yes , at first 10 years you are right
because of chaos, some problems occured in this countries
but now they are very happy
i visited a few old USSR country ( tajikistan , uzbekistan, kazakhistan,azerbayjan)
they are hopeful
their GNP is growing every year
and they become more domocratic every year
and i think very soon , middle asia is going to be " a power center"
i think nobody defends terrorists
they are terrorists and they do something according to their thinking of way
behading some innocent people is a big crime
and these terrorist will get their punishment may be in this world or hereafter.
BUT i strongly doubt those american soldiers who raped an innocent teenager iraqi girl and killed her and her family will get their punishment
because of this i think usa is going to collapse
"cruelty does not continue."
Nope ... People Think The US Is Evil Because Of Propaganda ... We Were Told That You Are How Do You Say ... Merciless When Killing ... Treat People Unfairly And Bla, Bla, Bla .... People Who Believe Those Things Should Have Been Told To Go To FriHost ...
You mean like the GWB administration?
I'm Australian. I have nothing against either the US or Britain, I just think that you are over-emphasising US's position in the world.
If they have committed crimes, then you should try them. Governments imprisoning people without trial is the opposite of personal freedom. That is spelled out in articles 6 through 12 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
We don't have a president, and don't want one (we had a referendum and rejected it). The most powerful person in the Australian political system is the Prime Minister, who is the freely elected leader of the largest party in the lower House of Parliament.
The Prime Minister chooses the Governor General, whose role is largely ceremonial. That means that we are free to choose someone who represents our whole country, rather than only half of it. Typically they are chosen for their outstanding contribution to charity or public life. So in Australia the effective Head of State is a uniting one, not a dividing one.
You need to realize that the US's system of government is not the only democratic one, and certainly not the best. When we were examining different models, it came in for a lot of criticism. The amount of money in US politics is something amazing. When was the last time you had a woman president? How about the last time you had a working class president?
i think there is a power in the world...
it never changes
it includes deaths/births
if usa collapses
you say world get hurt because of uncontrolled power.(nukes etc)(usa people die in this stituation)
so for example if usa doesnt collapse 100.000 non american people die
if usa collapse 100.000 american people die.
we understand this:people are going to die no one can change this but you can change who will die and who will live.
this is the thing ,usa doesnt let this "power" affect themselves so usa and israel still kills in mid east for this power not to affect them.
I would like to point out that the current US government is temporary at best. Politicians have a 4 year shelf life, unlike some countries.
Just wait and see, the next a** may not be as hellbent-for-leather as the current one. Don't write off the US just yet, we still have a pretty good handle on things....even if they may be mismanaged at the present time.
What the... Who the crap voted [YES]? Man, if the United States collapsed, the world economy would tumble over. Guess who trades with us? Almost everyone. Our allies in the world would never allow such a collapse, mainly because they depend on the United States in SOME forms of trade. The USA trades with over 200 countries, most of the trade is with Canada, China, Mexico, Japan, etc.
The United States and the United Kingdom dominate world politics. Point put: America's Fall is pretty much the break down of economy.
A Prime Minister sounds alot like a president by the looks of it. And it is actually seen as the best democratic government in the world, by countries such as the UK and others.
And we do imprison people who commit crimes, and YES WE DO GIVE TRIALS.
I was reading an article not too long ago, a list compiled by reports from major countries (Russia, UK, Australia, Canada, Etc). Each openly identified the United States as the most powerful country in the world (I think Russia didn't, can't remember). This is by Military. This is by far NOT by largest, as China has more. By combat power I've read in another srticle:
I think Israel has an impressive army, however, it's actually quite small.
Anyways, If the USA fell, then the world economy would drop at an incredible rate.
The UK is a Contitutional Monarchy. From Wikipedia:
"The United Kingdom is a political union made up of four constituent countries: England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland. The United Kingdom also has several overseas territories, including Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands. The Crown has a relationship with the dependencies of the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands; they are part of the British Isles but not part of the United Kingdom and are a possession of the Crown. A constitutional monarchy, the United Kingdom has close relationships with fifteen other Commonwealth Realms that share the same monarch — Queen Elizabeth II — as head of state."
That means, yup, the UK is not a democracy in all terms, more formally a "representative democracy" where a monarchy and a governing body makes the rules. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_monarchy#Constitutional_monarchy
America pretty much saved the UK from death in WWII. Quote me on it. Germany was winning toawrds D-Day. London was getting bombed, and then "toot toot" here comes the USA.
I highly doubt that the US will fall. As someone said before, we are not like rome and the ancient empires. We are not rome.
What the...? That's old, and it seems that people get so biased... Never mind. I give up trying to say Bush isn't that bad of a president. You want bad, all hail Hillary Duff.
Sure they call it a monarchy, but the crown doesnt have much real power anymore. It is ruled by parliment and an elected prime minister.
True, but the Crown can enact the SAS, and as a former Green Beret....that's saying something. Not to mention the fact that (aprox) one third of the national assests are held in public holding....but owned by the Windsor family.
Not at all like the GWB administration. What personal freedom have you lost? Oh what, none?
What sacrifice have you made in this war? None? Perhaps you know somebody fighting in the war, in which case I send my best wishes, but other than that scenario, it probably hasn't affected you at all.
As I said, I'm Australian. Should I say it again? I have lived in several different countries around the world, all of them democracies. I don't think arguing that Britain (or Australia) is not a democracy is going to get you very far.
For what it is worth, I think that having an administration which elected is more democratic than one which is appointed by a president. I also think it is more democratic to be able to regularly hold your administration up to probing questioning, and legally require them to give answers and factual answers (in parliament and on the record, not in scripted interviews on carefully vetted TV programs, or with hand picked audiences). That's something that I don't see much for the US president. I think accountability is important in a democracy, and responsibility for you actions is the basis of accountability. These are two things about the Westminster system which I think are much better than in the US model.
How about the expectation of privacy when you are using the internet? Or on the telephone? The patriot act enables the government to assume guilt with no evidence to back it up. What happened to 'innocent till proven guilty' ?
I would say those are personal freedom sacrifices. America doesnt have a democratic government anymore, they have Big Brother. My only question is how long does it take before GW decides to turn it into a reality tv show?
There is no such thing, nor has there ever been the "expectation of privacy" on the internet...it is essentially a huge public forum. The only thing the "expectation to privacy" law applies to is when you are conducting activities in your own home, not in a public forum, just signing on negates the law, and further it only applies to US citizens, and for your information....the big brother you mentioned IS watching. Try looking it up, ALL internet connections (worldwide) are routed through the US and monitored by CARNIVORE.
Eventually the U.S. will fall, it will more than likely be a hundred or more years from now but it will eventually fall just like every other great empire. It probably won't die but the U.S. will just lose a lot of power. Look at the great depressions though, 3 out of 4 people didn't have jobs and the U.S. survived. Then right after the great depression when the economy was starting to recover we go into WWII, but survived through it. I believe the U.S. isn't going anywhere for a while but eventually it will fall like everyone else.
If the U.S. were to die right now it would be very bad economically.
I think this topic is teetering on the edge of the following rule:
I'm not saying it's there, but I would just like to point out that this is flirting with that rule very closely.
Now, I'm not here to be a wannabe mod or anything, but honestly - be careful.
And it is my opinion that if the U.S. were to fall, virtually all trade would be destroyed and the world economy would completely collapse, causing essentially a similar situation to the "Great Depression" (in the 1930s) on a global scale, and possibly with drastic consequences.
tbh thats what the us is doing to us. they just mask it in a very pretty appealing way to the majority of the country. i mean seriously, how many people actually know what is going on anywhere? most people dont know. they believe what the media tells them. the media brainwashes the citizens of the united states, and guess who controls the media... the govt. coincidence i think not.
the only freedom we have here in america is to eat sleep defecate and breathe. u dont have a right to bear arms, you dont have a right to free speech its all censored, you may say it to yourself, or infront of a group but chances are it wont get outside that. media will censor it. police will censor it. the govt. will censor it.
we are not living in a free country, most people are living in the delusion of a free country. and we will not truly be a free country until there is an uprising; a change in the way things are done.
we have a 2 party system. w00 you got a 50.50 chance to make a difference. but really you cant, you know why, cause the people dont chose officials, there are representatives of the people who say thats what we want. i dont remember saying those people could vouch for me.
this country needs change, and it needs it fast. if not this country will fail sooner than imagined, or we will be stuck in a police state, and then even your basic bodily functions will be controlled by the govt.
and without the us, we lose a democratic republic, not a democracy, democracy is just as impossible to achieve as communism. there is always corruption no matter where you go. its human nature.
It was obvious from it's inception that it's here soley to base on Americans. Just go with it, and be happy in the knowledge that if it were the other way around, well, just go with it.
LOL, yeah. The Middle East and Middle East accessories sticky is locked for the love of Abraham.
I think all empires will collapse in some form or another because of the way by nature empires grow, as it prospers it needs to colonise other lands either physically or politically, and usually both history points out this has never been sustainable,one bad leader or one major natural disaster and its over or the beginning of the end
As to the American "empire" collapsing I am sure it will be the worst thing ever to happen to the world.....or so the media would have you believe, I think the panic the media will cause will be the dieing throws of big business ,of which the media is one of the biggest ,but not the American ppl, for the fat cats it will be the end of the world , but for the new tigers in the jungle it will be open season.....same day but a different "elite"
I think the americans will self destruct long before an outside force takes them out. They fight too much amungst themselves. They're too polarized. How they go out will depend on who is able to keep power.
Yep yep. Isn't it cool how many insults the mods allow to be thrown at K3ys, but if he protests it or throws it back, threads get locked, people get warnings, it's so funny. I think K3ys empire is almost over.
Nothing lasts forever, but I dont' see anything taking down the US in our lifetimes.
BTW-to set the record straight, I locked the Middle East stickie for 3 hours to get two users under control. Both where posting one line spam that was off topic and continued when asked to stop. If either had posted an on-topic thought in those posts, I would have let it go. Both were warned.
You can spin that how you want, but those are the facts.
Sorry, but I can’t turn this down.
Hobo is part of group of evil people that our lord Google wishes destroyed. He shows his belligerence in how he occupies innocent threads. We must fight him! Everyone, start indiscriminately and arbitrarily harming frihost members! We will be victorious!
Goo Goo, Goo Goo,
I think the USA may fall one day but I hope I'm not there to witness it.
It would probably be a bad, bad time.
And it helps other economys so it would affect the whole
I might. But if it simple divided up into, say, 2 ro 3 smaller countries, you might not even notice it world-wide.
Horse, did I see anything on topic in that last post? I bow to the power of goggleism and turn the other cheek... guess which one
True, very true Hobopelican
You make a great point but countries link China,
Russia, France, and a lot of other big countries most likely
will be affected greatly.
Someone once told me the USA resembles the Roman Empire. It is funny how so many influential people in the USA belong to the same demographics and was involved in the same secret societies namely the skulls and bones society?? I wouldnt have a clue whether what ive been reading is 100% true. Ey im not american. But i read from many sources. US calls itself a democracy- maybe. If you discount the voting errors, the vast portion of the population who abstain from polling, and the presentation of candidates to the people via only 2 choices- left of the right, or right of the right.
The founding fathers and Lincoln emphasized the importance of government being of the will of the people, with the people's interest being paramount. I believe any violation of this triggers a negative karma force which will insidiously return to haunt any government- demise is only a question of when. The US Government today has neglected not only its own citizens but also global citizens- the other stakeholders of the US who in this contemporary age of globalization- constitutes the people.
It exists,it's logical.
Have you noticed there are very few people posting who voted us collapse would be a good thing?
Cowards, I say!
I hope you didn't mean this seriously, its just absurd. )
Anyway i don't really care if US is goin down or not in near future or in any future there is. One great point brought up is that if its goin to happen it will prolly happen outside of our lifespan anyway, and that far into future its hard to predict anything it would be just speculation.
I disagree that the collapse of the US will help anyone. A collapse of US capitalist hemegmony over the world market would be good but the fall of the US as a country would have dramatic effect on the entire planet because the US has the ability to be a responsible nation without imperialistic goals that would stand to protect human rights around the world without stealing oil in the process. To me, that sounds like a better alternative than a global depression that would follow the fall of the US economy and the subsequent famine that would occur in developing countries.
I've read the first 3-4 replies of this topic, so this is not generalized:
This question is not appropriate in this forum. There are many americans here, who are tendencious in their answers. If they are right? No. When they first read the question of the poll they thought horrible things. Then some came with bull**** about global economy and even worse, SAFETY!! LOL!! So do you think that we, the 'rest' of the world are cheering you for "grabbing the ME by the throat"? I'm sorry, but this is nothing but funny. Some of you guys really entertain me. Then they (the ones who got horrible thoughts about the poll question, as words like "collapse of the US" should scare'em and make them remeber about really bad things) began picking reasons to argument the "NO". By the way, the answer is indoubtely YES because the questions does not exclude or specify anything. "Would the collapse of the US bring good results for the world?" of course it would bring good results. And bad too. Good results: Less people would die in the ME. The US sponsor local conflicts and is the man supporter of Israel. Without the US to protect Israel is nothing. The simple presence of Israel in the ME is the reason for so many deaths per hour.
And there would be less 'missionaries' teaching our indians here in Brazil. If you don't know what this means, then you think that the Amazon Forest is property of the US. Less biopiracy would be practised as well.
Bad results: it is impossible not to appreciate the contribution the US scientists and multi-area professionals give to the world.
So, perhaps that the question should be corrected.
I wouldnt want USA to fall apart or for that matter any country. There would be too much disharmony and chaos in the USA if that ever happens and trade wise, i am sure the other countries would benefit. I mean right now, USA earns a large revenue from trade with other countries, the big money earning companies are set up in the USA, and if the USA breaks, then ofcourse trade would not stop and the money would go somewhere else.
But as mentioned, i dont think the USA will collapse in our lifetime and it shouldnt. But i would rather that when people make decisions, they make such that the whole world benefits. Right now, i also do question a lot of initiatives of the US in the middle east and especially in the war agains IRAQ.
after the collapse of soviet empire ,all the scientists in this country
went to the other countries.
they started to work with local scientists in their new places.
they got an opportunity to compare their knowledge.
i think this helped to new scientific developments.
we have a saying
"from fighting of different ideas,we can get the thunder of truhth"
Man, don't take affront if you believe in freedom, as Americans are always telling us they do, then you have to believe in people's right to express their opinion even if it's different to yours.
I meant that if the US collapses, therefore it wouldn't be able to afford new talents anymore. This loss is inevitable. As for the URSS, they went on a exodus, but there wasn't a collapse, there was a break up of the union, but Russia stood with the biggest part of the territory and the legacy. Russia weakened after that, but remained as a nation.
Okay just read through the whole topic so here's my two cents (this may be an Australian idiom I'm not sure, means IMAO), I really do feel sorry for any Americans that want to live outside America these days. I like to consider myself reasonably well-travelled and have lived in a few countries and I know that Americans cop a lot of abuse overseas. I don't know if you guys realise it living inside America but the US is really not very poular in the rest of the world probably due to a long term neglect of foreign policy. One American friend of mine took to telling eveyone that she was Australian while travelling through Thailand a few years ago just to escape the dirty looks and verbal abuse that she got if she told people she was American.
What you see and what we see on the news is not the same and most other countries don't believe that America is a haven of freedom, democracy and civil rights. That said we don't all think you're evil either. You've got to look at things from the perspective of countries who've suffered recently. Aid can't be forced on people or they resent it and it looks like just another example of the US flexing its muscles. Foreign Countries really don't like being told what to do by the American superpower regardless of how often the American media tells its people that they are promoting freedom. The US needs to start putting support behind the UN again and be seen to be following its decisions not vetoing them whenever it feels the need to.
I don't wish suffering on anyone and so in that sense alone I think the collapse of America would be a tragedy but I really think that you guys need to start looking at and considering the opinions of the rest of the world.
Hope that wasn't harsh. Didn't want to add to the anti-american sentiment just trying to point out why this kind of topic is coming up.
pity for her
i think collopse of america will be sooner than expected.
Wow. This thread has certainly brought about a lot of emotional responses on many sides!
I’ll answer a few comments from the post of hades9366 first:
That is the entire point of having veto power! I know, I know. You’re right. We should behave more like the other permanent members who never use their veto power whenever they feel the need to. My mistake.
I argue that we do, even more so than we really have to. Just because we decide to go it alone or disagree with other nations doesn’t mean we don’t listen. What, the rest of the international community listens to one another and behaves in the unity of brotherly love? Yeah, I see that all the time.
I’m an American and proud of it. I’d never deny it when traveling overseas simply to save myself from some evil looks or derogatory comments. I don’t care. If someone has a problem with Americans, so be it. Besides, usually my accent or passport gives me away.
As a life-long student of history, of course the United States will cease to exist some day. All nations do. Most of the nations today that claim to be “older” than the United States are only so in name. France? Younger. Germany? Japan? China? Saudi Arabia? Heck, none of those nations have even been around a century yet.
Nations come and go. I’m not so arrogant or naïve as to think the United States is the first immortal country.
I’ve also read several comments that either imply or flat-out say that President Bush is some sort of tyrant, comparing the Patriot Act to Nazi Germany, saying he stole the election because he didn’t receive the popular vote.
First of all, the United States is a republic, not a democracy, and presidents are not elected by the popular vote but by an electoral college. I’m not going to go into details on our constitution and states rights, but suffice it to say that in order to maintain equality among the 50 independent states that make up our nation, the popular vote will never be used to elect a president. Other controversial elections:
1824: Andrew Jackson received the most popular and electoral votes, but not enough electoral votes to secure the presidency. The election was tossed to the House of Representatives, who elected John Qunicy Adams, the candidate who came in second in both counts during the general election.
1876: I won’t even go into the details of this mess that directly led to institutional racism in the South up to the Civil Rights Movement! It made the 2000 controversy look like a dispute between 5-year old girls at a pretend tea party. (BTW, Rutherford B. Hayes won without receiving the majority of the popular vote.)
1888: Although he won the popular vote President Cleveland lost his reelection bid to Benjamin Harrison.
Now, as to other evidence of Bush’s tyranny, I must laugh. (Not the least of all because he’ll be out of office in two years. Some tyrant. Yet Hugo Chavez gets ovations galore at the U.N. even as he plots to change his country’s constitution so he can remain in power for life.) I’ve even heard the name Lincoln invoked by at least one person in this thread as an example of a great president. How ironic. If any president in United States history could be compared to a tyrant, it was Lincoln.
Before I go further, I like Lincoln (even though I am a Southerner whose family dates back to 17th Century Virginia and the first settlers of Tennessee). But let’s look at his record in the 1860s and see if we can honestly say that President Bush is more of a tyrant.
Acts of Lincoln during the Civil War:
1. Suspended the Writ of Habeas Corpus – As Yale professor Joshua Kleinfeld said, “when Lincoln suspended the Writ of Habeas Corpus, he clothed himself with more power then any individual had possessed in America before, or since.” (BTW, Franklin Roosevelt used this precedent to suspend the writ and imprison Japanese-Americans during World War II.)
2. Declared Martial Law – Went so far as to arrest people for protesting the war and shutting down anti-war newspapers. And since the writ of habeas corpus had been suspended, there was nothing they could do about it.
3. Had Congressman Vallandigham of Ohio (an outspoken political opponent) taken into custody by armed soldiers in the middle of the night, thrown in a military prison, convicted by military tribunal of treason because of a speech he gave in the House of Representatives, and was promptly deported.
4. Issued an arrest warrant for Supreme Court Chief Justice Roger Taney after Taney issued an opinion that only congress could suspend habeas corpus.
President Bush hasn’t even come close to crossing those thresholds!
Sorry I ventured off topic and went on so long, but I couldn’t sit idly by and see some of these comments unchallenged.
For those of you longing to see the United States “collapse,” don’t start planning your celebration parties. You won’t live to see it. (If you do, then something horrific happened to the planet beyond anyone’s control.) Our citizens may argue with one another, but that is part of our strength. For those of you who think we’ll collapse from within, you missed that possibility by more than a century. We’ve already fought our Civil War. 620,000 Americans died and that trial made us stronger. It was the crucible without which we would not be a superpower today.
When push comes to shove, we stand together as Americans. Even Americans who disagree vehemently with President Bush stood up for him when Hugo Chavez called him names on our own soil. Don’t mistake our bickering for weakness. Our diversity is strength. Arguing is how we sharpen our skills. We strive on adversity and love challenges. Yes, we are a nation of conquerors. We conquered a continent. Have conquered empires. Conquered the challenges of flying. Conquered space. Conquered the moon. Conquered polio. Conquered the night. Etc. Etc.
Heck, my ancestors even conquered England in the 11th Century.
We look to the future, eager to see what’s over the next mountain, across the next sea, beyond the next theoretical limit. We advance because we are explorers and that heart beats within our collective souls. We’re never satisfied with what we have in knowledge, never satisfied with where we are, but always want more, always want to go further and faster. It is why we all left our respective homelands to come to America. This too is our strength and what has made us so wealthy and powerful today.
Will this nation collapse? Yes, all nations do in some way or another.
Will it be bad for the world? Who knows? What sort of world will it be at the time? Perhaps the United States will fall at the same time as all of mankind. Maybe it will be destroyed in a fiery exchange of thermonuclear warheads that thrusts humans back to a primitive existence requiring centuries to recover. Maybe some woman in Fiji will find herself to be an immortal goddess who ushers in a period of profound peace and prosperity where nations are no longer necessary to provide for the good of people as we all receive sustenance and enlightenment from magical plankton gathered off her coast.
“The question is moot.” Jesse Jackson, Saturday Night Live, October 20, 1984
This ridiculous post is still opened?
If I started a thread "The collapse of Iran" or "The collapse of the UK", it'd be closed in minutes.
Ah well, can't win em all.
Collapse of Iran? Well, yeah, because of the "no more Middle East topics" rule. But why would we close one on the UK? Go ahead and start one. Why are you guys so sensitive about criticsm of the US? You think we're perfect? We aren't. No country is. Defend the US, but accept that as a superpower, our failings can affect the whole world and the world is gonna complain.
Agreed. Our failings can affect the whole world. Heck, even when we're arguably in the right, someone's going to suffer for it! It’s the nature of international competition, uh, I mean relations.
What is good for one country is not necessarily good for another. That does not make the former wrong, it’s just the nature of existence. Animals and plants compete. Those that succeed survive. Those that do not become extinct. What is good for one period may make it an untenable adaptation for later (hence the reason we don't have T-Rexes wandering around).
Evolution depends upon competition. Nations strive or fail based upon their ability to survive in a highly competitive environment where a rapidly growing world population is competing for fewer and fewer resources and where political and religious philosophies are brought into conflict with ever increasing regularity because of the proverbially shrinking nature of the globe.
We're all competing, always have been. We form alliances of like-minded nations or just alliances of convenience because at a particular moment we have the same enemy.
My point is that such a question about any nation, whether the United States or Djibouti, is moot. There is no historical evidence of a nation-state surviving in perpetuity. So yes, at some point in future history the United States (and every other nation currently in existence) will cease to exist. Furthermore, any discussion of the impact of such a collapse, evolution into a greater entity, devolution into smaller national or sub-national entities, mass North American extinction, etc. is just supposition based upon nothing but one’s imagination and tenuous comparisons to past nations or empires (usually the Roman Empire).
Thus I conclude that any such thread about any nation is simply an excuse to bash a particular country cloaked in an extremely thin veil of academic debate. So I stand by my quote of Jesse Jackson’s skit on Saturday Night Live in 1984. “The question is moot.”
Or, it could be a chance to exercise thought and imagination. Unlikely, but don't be so fast to shut down a topic of discussion. There might be a few gems in there.
i think that if the U.S did colapse it would be a bad thing because then there would be HUGE problems. the world economy would have to collapse, the "saftey" of the world would be in danger.
i really dont think that the US will fall apart like the soviet union. it may just not be world power, thats all. maybe in the next 30 years or so but not now.
And anti-American sentiment runs high!
Here's the idea:
The United States is the most powerful, dominate, and visible nation on the earth. With that comes the responsibility to spread our ideals - democracy, justice, and liberty to everyone. I don't think it should be spread by force, but it would appear that that is how it's spreading.
And I don't think the U.S. collapse is anywhere near us, surely other nations will become more powerful, but the U.S. will still remain a power for as far down the road as I can see it, unless some natural disaster completely wipes out the nation or something.
People of the world also need to recognize that there is a difference between Americanization and Globalization.
The main justification (that I can come up with) for the reason we want complete democracy is this:
Democracies DO NOT FIGHT other democracies
Yes, I definitely have found at least one gem...
The responsibility to spread your ideals?
Just because you're
Pardon my anger, but have you lost it?
If Iraq was the most powerful, dominant and visible nation on Earth, as you put it, would you consider it their responsibility to spread their ideals of Islam, women suppression, etc?
Or unless the US loses its credibility in the international community... War in iraq unsanctioned by UNSC, Pakistan a NATO ally, even though AQ Khan proliferated the Nuke know-how, etc etc...
Off the top of my head... India and Pakistan, even though Pakistan is only a mock-democracy.