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Did you convert?





loyal
I am interested in whether people converted out of the religions that they were brought up in. How often do people convert out of atheism? Christianity seems the religion most people convert from.

Let me know if you converted from one religion/faith to another.
Soulfire
Where did you get "Christianity is what most people convert from?" I highly doubt that, as Christianity is the world's largest religion.

Just for a backup to my claim:

Source: Adherents.com (Link here)

Christianity is the only religion that exists in some form in all 238 countries of the world. Every 24 hours, there are 69,000 new Christians, which makes it the fastest growing religion on earth.

That being said, no - I was born Christian and remain Christian. For me, all the truths of life that I need are within Christianity, and I have found nothing wrong or irrelevant with it to this day.
swapnalokam
I think loyal is correct in a way.. people who covert to christiansim because of faith is very less according to people who convert according to business.. and at the same rate they get out of the relegion.. they may remain christian on their certificate but they will return to the practices of their ancestors one period or another.. true belivers are very less in christiansim comparing to many other relegion.. in the chart you said christians are 33% of the population... I bet they are not all the same.. there is ... catholics, protestants.. and a ton of other groups with diffrent ideas.. and ready to cut throats of others.. fast growing and fast splitting is what I say about christainsim.. it is not as fast growing as you think.. either.. if I say Iam christian.. are you counting me in.. I don't think so.. I can assure you that not even 1% in this world are true christians..

NO OFFENSE TO ANY CHRISTIANS.. I AM SORRY IF YOU FELT SO
Subsonic Sound
Quote:
fast growing and fast splitting is what I say about christainsim.. it is not as fast growing as you think.. either.. if I say Iam christian.. are you counting me in.. I don't think so.. I can assure you that not even 1% in this world are true christians..


I'm not sure your exact statistics are dead on... but you have a point.

In the last census, well over 50% of Britons reported being Anglican. If even half of that attended church, they'd be crammed full - yet they're often near empty.

I strongly suspect that I went down in that census as Anglican. And indeed, I was born Anglican, baptised, and confirmed as an Anglican.

When was the last time I went to church? My cousin's christening, a year ago. Before that? His father's wedding. Before that? I don't know. I'm an Atheist, personally.

Well, more or less. To be exact, 'cynical agnostic' would be more fitting. I do not believe because I have no reason to believe. I concede that it is possible that some time in the future I will see proof. Undoubtedly I'll question it up down, backwards and sideways, and search for another solution - one that fits the way I understand the world. But it is just possible I won't find one.

Is it likely? Hell no. But it's pretty stupid to deny that something *could* happen in the future.

My conversion was simple enough - from a very early age I've had quite a scientific mind. I was taught tales like Jonah and the Whale, Noah's Ark, that kind of thing... and even as a little kid I'd question them - asking questions my teachers couldn't - or wouldn't explain. Didn't take long for me to lose faith in the religion.
jipmerite
Quote:
With a total of approximately 1.4 billion adherents, Islam is the second-largest religion in the world and the world's fastest growing religion.


[Source]
Rhysige
I maintain that jedi is the largest religion and fastest growing.. to prove my point



So there the graph shows it all, its infallible.
loyal
Quote:

soulfire said:
Christianity is the only religion that exists in some form in all 238 countries of the world. Every 24 hours, there are 69,000 new Christians, which makes it the fastest growing religion on earth.

That being said, no - I was born Christian and remain Christian. For me, all the truths of life that I need are within Christianity, and I have found nothing wrong or irrelevant with it to this day.


Actually, i would disagree there. I'm not sure what religion looses the most followers, but christianity is definitly high. People are beginning to be aware of all its problems (corruption in the Bible, things that don't make sense, and so on). Christianity posses the largest amount of followers that don't actually follow it. There are lots of people who do not actually believe in Christianity despite continually calling themselves christian. Nevertheless Christianity does gain alot of converts despite loosing alot.

It does not matter if it is the biggest religion. It does not mean it is right. Islam is growing fast and will one day overtake Christianity if it continues at its pace. It's certainly growing faster than Christianity. But so is atheism.
loyal
Quote:

swapnalokam said:
I think loyal is correct in a way.. people who covert to christiansim because of faith is very less according to people who convert according to business.. and at the same rate they get out of the relegion.. they may remain christian on their certificate but they will return to the practices of their ancestors one period or another.. true belivers are very less in christiansim comparing to many other relegion.. in the chart you said christians are 33% of the population... I bet they are not all the same.. there is ... catholics, protestants.. and a ton of other groups with diffrent ideas.. and ready to cut throats of others.. fast growing and fast splitting is what I say about christainsim.. it is not as fast growing as you think.. either.. if I say Iam christian.. are you counting me in.. I don't think so.. I can assure you that not even 1% in this world are true christians..

NO OFFENSE TO ANY CHRISTIANS.. I AM SORRY IF YOU FELT SO


Well i am sure it is bigger than 1 percent but you speak truthfully. Not everyone who says he is a Christian is actually a Christian. Look at jehovah's witnesses. No offence to them, but the amount of problems they have in their religion certainly makes them a false religion. Christians would not call them Christians, but they would still count them to make their number bigger.
loyal
Quote:

Subsonic Sound said:
My conversion was simple enough - from a very early age I've had quite a scientific mind. I was taught tales like Jonah and the Whale, Noah's Ark, that kind of thing... and even as a little kid I'd question them - asking questions my teachers couldn't - or wouldn't explain. Didn't take long for me to lose faith in the religion.


Ah sad. Christianity is often weak in the areas of proof. It requires strong faith. The flood involving Noah covered a city not the world. The Bible was mistaken, as history shows.
So if you a see a religion with both proof and faith would you consider it?
loyal
Quote:

jipmerite said:
With a total of approximately 1.4 billion adherents, Islam is the second-largest religion in the world and the world's fastest growing religion.


I think it's one point five according to data sheets. But it's certainly growing fast. I checked with the numbers myself.

0.700 billion or more, Barnes & Noble Encyclopedia 1993
0.817 billion, The Universal Almanac (1996)
0.951 billion, The Cambridge Factfinder (1993)
1.100 billion, The World Almanac (1997)
1.200 billion, CAIR (Council on American-Islamic relations) (1999)

Currently 1.5 billion in 2005.
qtpie_32
I was raised catholic, but then, I became athiest. Usually converting implies you changed religions not gave one up, but I guess its sorta the same. I traded the religion I was for another one.
Soulfire
loyal wrote:
Islam is growing fast and will one day overtake Christianity if it continues at its pace. It's certainly growing faster than Christianity. But so is atheism.


Okay, you started it - so here goes.


Quote:
Introduction:

The Islamic religion has a long history of myth making. The claim they are the fastest growing religion in the world is pure myth. We have collected the latest statistics from David A. Barrett’s huge two volume, "World Christian Encyclopedia", the 2001 AD edition. In case you haven’t heard of this work, it is the world standard for religious statistics.

Muslim's claim that their growth rate is 235 percent and 47 percent for Christianity. This statistic came from the Readers Digest Almanac and Yearbook 1983, and represents 235 percent increase over 50 years. Muslims always leave off the 50 year fact to make it appear they are going 235% every year. A simple review of the readers Digest study shows that the growth rate of Islam vs. Christianity is directly linked to the birth rate in Third World countries where Islam dominates and not actual conversions to each religion. Christianity has always been larger than Islam. These statistics from Readers Digest are over 20 years old. Further, we do not consider readers digest to be an authority on such matters. Why will Muslims not quote real authoritative statistics from certified research groups who show Islam is not the fastest growing religion in 3/4’s of the worlds countries.

There are over a billion Muslims in the world today, including 3 to 5 million in the U.S., making it the second most populous religion on earth after Christianity. According to some estimates, Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the world. (The Joy of Sects, Peter Occhigrosso, 1996, p394-397)
Islam is the religion which has developed from the preaching and life of Muhammad, a citizen of the city of Mecca in Arabia, who early in the seventh century of the Christian Era appeared as a preacher of monotheism to his own people and founded a religious movement which today counts perhaps as many as 300,000,000 followers, mostly in the heat belt from Indonesia to Morocco. (Islam: Muhammad and His Religion, Arthur Jeffery, 1958, p xi-xiv)

Okay, so that's just basically setting the scene - there's not too much of the "good stuff" in the above text.

Quote:
Relative size and growth of Islam to Christianity:

From Table 1-1, there are 1.9 Billion Christians making up 31% of the world population, whereas there are only 1.2 Billion Muslims making up only 20% of the population. It seems that Allah's little trick by making Judas appear like Jesus, so Jesus could escape crucifixion and Judas was crucified in his place, kind of backfired, since 31% of the world's population never learned Allah played a trick and really believes that Jesus not only died, but was raised from the dead! This should be most troubling for Muslims to think that "Allah's deception" (Qur'an 4:156) actually became the world's largest religion!
From Table 1-1, the relative growth rates of Islam to Christianity are compiled from data that ended the very year before the great terrorist attacks of 911 against the world trade towers in 2001 and the train bomb in Spain in 2004. Statisticians are predicting that Islamic motivated terrorism will last the decade and bring Islam into great disrepute with the world population. This will have a very strong dampening effect on the long term predicted Islamic growth rates for the years 2025 and 2050.
From Table 1-1 you can see that the world growth rate of Muslims is 2.13, and for Christians it is 1.36. A closer look reveals, however that the birth rate of Muslims world wide, is literally double that of Christians. This is due to the fact that Muslims are largest in the developing world where dirt floors, thatched roofs and large families are common. When you the actual conversion rate, where men chose their religion, rather then are born into it, you can see that Christians are converting, on a percentage basis, almost twice as many as Muslims (1.7:1). This means that individual Christians are out converting Muslims almost two to one! What this means, is that as third world Muslim controlled countries gain the advantages of education and technology found in the Western world, their birth rate will drop off to match that of the West, but Christians will still continue to out convert them at a rate of 1.7:1.
Total adherents
New from conversion
Number of adherents to make one new convert:

Muslims
1,188,242,789
865,558
1,372

Christians
1,999,563,838
2,501,396
799


From Table 1-1 you can see that while Muslims claim they are the fastest growing religion in the world (2.13), the statistics say that Baha'is are growing at a faster rate (2.2Cool and faster still are Zoroastrians (2.65).
From Table 1-1 regarding world distribution, you can see that Islam is only in 204 of the worlds 238 countries. Christianity, on the other hand is in all 238 countries of the world. Christianity has a 100% penetration rate world wide!
From Table 1-2, you can see that presently every 24 hours, the world population of Christians increases by 69,000, whereas there are only 68,000 Muslims. The only reason Muslims are anywhere near Christians is because of higher birth rates in the parts of the world where Muslims are largest. The vast majority of the 69,000 Christians will be educated, whereas the majority of the 68,000 Muslims will be illiterate peasants without clean drinking water.
From Table 1-4, you can see the relative growth rates of Christianity vs. Islam broken down into 6 continents. In each of the 6 continents, Christianity enjoys a wider distribution of countries.
From Table 1-4 the continent "Africa" we observe that Christianity slightly larger but is growing at a much faster rate than Islam. Although the birth rates are about identical, individual Christians are making twice as many converts as Muslims. In the African continent, Christians are both the largest and fastest growing in relation to Islam.
From Table 1-4 the continent "Asia" we observe that although Islam is 25% and Christianity is only 10% of the population, again Christianity is growing at a must fast rate. Even the Jews are growing at a faster rate (2.99) than the Muslims in Asia! While birth rates for Muslims are higher than Christians, individual Christians are 13 times more effective at making new converts than Muslims. In the Asian continent, Christians are growing faster than Muslims.
From Table 1-4 the continent "Europe" we observe that while Muslims are growing faster than Christians, Buddhists claim the prize for the fastest growing religion at a rate of 1.39. Muslims make up only 5% of the population in Europe and most of the Muslim growth in Europe is from immigration. Although 77% of Europeans are Christians, Buddhists, not Muslims, are the fastest growing religion in the continent of Europe.
From Table 1-4 the continent "Latin America" that we observe that while Muslims (1.99) are growing faster than Christians (1.63), they make up only 1/3 of 1% (.3%) of the population, whereas Christians are 92 % of the population. The down trend in Christianity conversion is mainly defects from Catholics to non-religious. It must be troubling for Muslims to know that although they are growing faster than Christians, Baha’is are growing much faster than Muslims at a rate of 2.87! In the Latin American continent, Christians make up 93% of the population. Although tiny Islam is fastest growing faster than Christianity, it is the Baha’is, who take the prize for fastest growing the Latin America.
From Table 1-4 the continent "North America" we observe that while Muslims are growing faster than Christians, they make up only 4% of the population, whereas 84% are Christians. Most of the Muslim growth in North America is from immigration. Canada alone immigrates more Muslims apart from the USA, to account for almost all the growth in all of North America every year! It sure must be a hollow boast for Muslims to claim they are the fastest growing religion in North America, when it is because of the kindness and generosity of Christians who let them immigrate, often fleeing the persecution between hostile Muslim sects. There are still 50% more Jews in North America than Muslims in 2004. Muslims lie when they tell you they are the fastest growing (1.56) religion in North America. From Table 1-4, we can see that they are no better than 5th place in growth behind: Atheists (3.51), Hindus (3.13), Sikhs (2.81), Buddhists (2.75), Baha’is (2.25). We tire of the lies and myth making of Islamic spin doctors.
Muslims claim they are the fastest growing religion in Canada, based upon the National Census: 1971: 33,000; 1981: 98,000; 1991: 253,000. But from Table 1-4 shows that there were less than 11,000 Muslims in Canada in 1900! Sure on a purely statistical basis, dividing the small initial numbers by those added by immigration, they come out on top, but that’s because of the kindness of the Christians who let them into their country! It is a myth that Muslims are converting any measurable numbers of non-Muslims. The most common reason somone converts to Islam is through marriage. These same individuals would have converted to be Jews or Christians, if that was their new spouses religion.
From Table 1-4 the continent "Oceania" we observe that Christians represent 83% of the population and Muslims are a miniscule 1%.Yet the facts are that in Oceania, Muslims are indeed growing at a fast rate than Christians at 3.04. But the fastest growing religion is "new-religionists" at a staggering rate of 9.02, followed by Buddhists at 5.19, then Sikhs at 3.55, then Zoroastrians at 3.18. Muslims are no better than the 5th fastest growing religion in Oceania!


In conclusion:
1) There are more Christians added to the world each day than any other religion. The fact is that today, Christianity is the fastest growing religion. That's not to say it couldn't change, but for now, Christianity takes that prize of fastest growing.
2) Islam is not the fastest growing religion on any of the 6 inhabited continents.
3) Islam isn't the fastest growing religion, and only appears to be on the surface with deceptive facts.

I'm not denying that Islam is a large world-religion, I mean, the quotes above make it clear that Islam is the world's second largest religion, but the same arguments can be made back and forth. If you say that "well, those people say they are Christian, but don't really follow it" that argument can simply be changed to "well, those people say that they are Muslims, but don't really follow Islam."

http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-myths-fastest-growing.htm (Source of Quotes and reworded conclusion)
Subsonic Sound
Quote:
The Islamic religion has a long history of myth making. The claim they are the fastest growing religion in the world is pure myth. We have collected the latest statistics from David A. Barrett’s huge two volume, "World Christian Encyclopedia"


Does anyone else find this paragraph deeply funny?
jipmerite
Quote:
The Islamic religion has a long history of myth making.


This can be debated to both sides but in this particular issue, it isn't Islamic sources that are brandishing this idea. It's being quoted in places like Wikipedia. So whether you can sleep with this idea or not, Islam IS the fastest growing religion at the moment.

Quote:
It seems that Allah's little trick by making Judas appear like Jesus, so Jesus could escape crucifixion and Judas was crucified in his place, kind of backfired, since 31% of the world's population never learned Allah played a trick and really believes that Jesus not only died, but was raised from the dead! This should be most troubling for Muslims to think that "Allah's deception" (Qur'an 4:156) actually became the world's largest religion!


It is the Christians who do not believe in Allah's trick. If you read the bible you will know that after the cruci-fiction Jesus came among his followes and when they were afraid, saying it was a ghost, Jesus told them to feel his flesh and see that he is not a Spirit. Christians now stubbornly refuse to acknowlege the teaching and history of Jesus in order to uphold the fictional concept of the Trinity.

Trying to prove that Islam is growing faster because "Muslims are largest in the developing world where dirt floors, thatched roofs and large families" is really lame because whether Islam is growing due to converts or due to a growth of population inside the Islamic community, scientifically followers of Islam is still growing and apparantly, faster than Christianity.

But obviously Chrsiatianity has reason to be a faster growing religion, given it's large Missionary movement. Islam does not have a huge network of people going to unheard of remote places and converting them from their traditional beliefs. It is funny that despite these missionaries going as far as to go to Arab countries, wearing Hijab and acting like Muslims and slowing trying to mislead the people, in the world Islam is still growing faster.
loyal
Soulfire, i have actually looked and researched Muslims' growth. I am aware of some of the tricks some Muslims used, and the truth that others use.

Quote:

Introduction:

The Islamic religion has a long history of myth making. The claim they are the fastest growing religion in the world is pure myth. We have collected the latest statistics from David A. Barrett’s huge two volume, "World Christian Encyclopedia", the 2001 AD edition. In case you haven’t heard of this work, it is the world standard for religious statistics.

Muslim's claim that their growth rate is 235 percent and 47 percent for Christianity. This statistic came from the Readers Digest Almanac and Yearbook 1983, and represents 235 percent increase over 50 years. Muslims always leave off the 50 year fact to make it appear they are going 235% every year. A simple review of the readers Digest study shows that the growth rate of Islam vs. Christianity is directly linked to the birth rate in Third World countries where Islam dominates and not actual conversions to each religion. Christianity has always been larger than Islam. These statistics from Readers Digest are over 20 years old. Further, we do not consider readers digest to be an authority on such matters. Why will Muslims not quote real authoritative statistics from certified research groups who show Islam is not the fastest growing religion in 3/4’s of the worlds countries.

There are over a billion Muslims in the world today, including 3 to 5 million in the U.S., making it the second most populous religion on earth after Christianity. According to some estimates, Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the world. (The Joy of Sects, Peter Occhigrosso, 1996, p394-397)


From Table 1-1, the relative growth rates of Islam to Christianity are compiled from data that ended the very year before the great terrorist attacks of 911 against the world trade towers in 2001 and the train bomb in Spain in 2004. Statisticians are predicting that Islamic motivated terrorism will last the decade and bring Islam into great disrepute with the world population. This will have a very strong dampening effect on the long term predicted Islamic growth rates for the years 2025 and 2050.
From Table 1-1 you can see that the world growth rate of Muslims is 2.13, and for Christians it is 1.36. A closer look reveals, however that the birth rate of Muslims world wide, is literally double that of Christians. This is due to the fact that Muslims are largest in the developing world where dirt floors, thatched roofs and large families are common. When you the actual conversion rate, where men chose their religion, rather then are born into it, you can see that Christians are converting, on a percentage basis, almost twice as many as Muslims (1.7:1). This means that individual Christians are out converting Muslims almost two to one! What this means, is that as third world Muslim controlled countries gain the advantages of education and technology found in the Western world, their birth rate will drop off to match that of the West, but Christians will still continue to out convert them at a rate of 1.7:1.
Total adherents
New from conversion
Number of adherents to make one new convert:

Muslims
1,188,242,789
865,558
1,372

Christians
1,999,563,838
2,501,396
799


From Table 1-1 you can see that while Muslims claim they are the fastest growing religion in the world (2.13), the statistics say that Baha'is are growing at a faster rate (2.2Cool and faster still are Zoroastrians (2.65).
From Table 1-1 regarding world distribution, you can see that Islam is only in 204 of the worlds 238 countries. Christianity, on the other hand is in all 238 countries of the world. Christianity has a 100% penetration rate world wide!
From Table 1-2, you can see that presently every 24 hours, the world population of Christians increases by 69,000, whereas there are only 68,000 Muslims. The only reason Muslims are anywhere near Christians is because of higher birth rates in the parts of the world where Muslims are largest. The vast majority of the 69,000 Christians will be educated, whereas the majority of the 68,000 Muslims will be illiterate peasants without clean drinking water.
From Table 1-4, you can see the relative growth rates of Christianity vs. Islam broken down into 6 continents. In each of the 6 continents, Christianity enjoys a wider distribution of countries.
From Table 1-4 the continent "Africa" we observe that Christianity slightly larger but is growing at a much faster rate than Islam. Although the birth rates are about identical, individual Christians are making twice as many converts as Muslims. In the African continent, Christians are both the largest and fastest growing in relation to Islam.
From Table 1-4 the continent "Asia" we observe that although Islam is 25% and Christianity is only 10% of the population, again Christianity is growing at a must fast rate. Even the Jews are growing at a faster rate (2.99) than the Muslims in Asia! While birth rates for Muslims are higher than Christians, individual Christians are 13 times more effective at making new converts than Muslims. In the Asian continent, Christians are growing faster than Muslims.
From Table 1-4 the continent "Europe" we observe that while Muslims are growing faster than Christians, Buddhists claim the prize for the fastest growing religion at a rate of 1.39. Muslims make up only 5% of the population in Europe and most of the Muslim growth in Europe is from immigration. Although 77% of Europeans are Christians, Buddhists, not Muslims, are the fastest growing religion in the continent of Europe.
From Table 1-4 the continent "Latin America" that we observe that while Muslims (1.99) are growing faster than Christians (1.63), they make up only 1/3 of 1% (.3%) of the population, whereas Christians are 92 % of the population. The down trend in Christianity conversion is mainly defects from Catholics to non-religious. It must be troubling for Muslims to know that although they are growing faster than Christians, Baha’is are growing much faster than Muslims at a rate of 2.87! In the Latin American continent, Christians make up 93% of the population. Although tiny Islam is fastest growing faster than Christianity, it is the Baha’is, who take the prize for fastest growing the Latin America.
From Table 1-4 the continent "North America" we observe that while Muslims are growing faster than Christians, they make up only 4% of the population, whereas 84% are Christians. Most of the Muslim growth in North America is from immigration. Canada alone immigrates more Muslims apart from the USA, to account for almost all the growth in all of North America every year! It sure must be a hollow boast for Muslims to claim they are the fastest growing religion in North America, when it is because of the kindness and generosity of Christians who let them immigrate, often fleeing the persecution between hostile Muslim sects. There are still 50% more Jews in North America than Muslims in 2004. Muslims lie when they tell you they are the fastest growing (1.56) religion in North America. From Table 1-4, we can see that they are no better than 5th place in growth behind: Atheists (3.51), Hindus (3.13), Sikhs (2.81), Buddhists (2.75), Baha’is (2.25). We tire of the lies and myth making of Islamic spin doctors.
Muslims claim they are the fastest growing religion in Canada, based upon the National Census: 1971: 33,000; 1981: 98,000; 1991: 253,000. But from Table 1-4 shows that there were less than 11,000 Muslims in Canada in 1900! Sure on a purely statistical basis, dividing the small initial numbers by those added by immigration, they come out on top, but that’s because of the kindness of the Christians who let them into their country! It is a myth that Muslims are converting any measurable numbers of non-Muslims. The most common reason somone converts to Islam is through marriage. These same individuals would have converted to be Jews or Christians, if that was their new spouses religion.
From Table 1-4 the continent "Oceania" we observe that Christians represent 83% of the population and Muslims are a miniscule 1%.Yet the facts are that in Oceania, Muslims are indeed growing at a fast rate than Christians at 3.04. But the fastest growing religion is "new-religionists" at a staggering rate of 9.02, followed by Buddhists at 5.19, then Sikhs at 3.55, then Zoroastrians at 3.18. Muslims are no better than the 5th fastest growing religion in Oceania!


In conclusion:
1) There are more Christians added to the world each day than any other religion. The fact is that today, Christianity is the fastest growing religion. That's not to say it couldn't change, but for now, Christianity takes that prize of fastest growing.
2) Islam is not the fastest growing religion on any of the 6 inhabited continents.
3) Islam isn't the fastest growing religion, and only appears to be on the surface with deceptive facts.

I'm not denying that Islam is a large world-religion, I mean, the quotes above make it clear that Islam is the world's second largest religion, but the same arguments can be made back and forth. If you say that "well, those people say they are Christian, but don't really follow it" that argument can simply be changed to "well, those people say that they are Muslims, but don't really follow Islam."

From Table 1-1, there are 1.9 Billion Christians making up 31% of the world population, whereas there are only 1.2 Billion Muslims making up only 20% of the population. It seems that Allah's little trick by making Judas appear like Jesus, so Jesus could escape crucifixion and Judas was crucified in his place, kind of backfired, since 31% of the world's population never learned Allah played a trick and really believes that Jesus not only died, but was raised from the dead! This should be most troubling for Muslims to think that "Allah's deception" (Qur'an 4:156) actually became the world's largest religion!

http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-myths-fastest-growing.htm (Source of Quotes and reworded conclusion)


No offense soulfire, but that was complete rubbish. You should not trust bible.ca, they know nothing about Islam.

Okay let's start off. Islam does not have a long history of mythmaking. I have only been on one Muslim website hiding the 235 percent increase was done in fifty years.

Also i found absurd statements in the article such as:

"and faster still are Zoroastrians (2.65)."
"Even the Jews are growing at a faster rate (2.99) than the Muslims in Asia"

Those two statments are completely wrong. Obviously the writer of this article is a liar. Or completely stupid.

Iran, formely known as Persia, completely converted from Zoroastrian to Islam. It was literally almost everyone over a few decades converted to Islam. Zoroastrian is a dead religion. There are a few practicers left in Iran and indian places. That's it. It does not increase at all!

Second, Judiaism is also loosing many many many Jews to religions such as Christianity. To claim they are growing is really wrong.
Jewish encloypedia says:
"This would give an average of only 2,000 per annum throughout the century, but the number has largely increased of recent years. A rough estimate made ten years ago placed the number of conversions at about 3,000 per annum—1,000 in Austria-Hungary, 1,000 in Russia, 500 in Germany, and the remainder in the Anglo-Saxon world. A slight reduction, about 500 a year, must be made in the figures regarding the total losses, because of the converts to Judaism, such conversions resulting mainly through the marriage of Christian women to Jews."

So if the article made two mistakes which i find near impossible to make, then i doubt i am going to trust the rest of it.

Next we come onto the article claiming that Muslims have a very small growth rate. Then it says the only reason it grows so fast is because of birth rate! lol. Contradiction.

Let me show you my numbers for Islam being fast then i will compare that along side the percentage of birth rate.


209,020,000 1935 World Almanac and Book of Facts
700,000,000 1983 Readers Digest Almanac and Yearbook
235 percent increase in fifty years. Christianity increase 47 percent in fifty years.

2000:1,188,242,789: 1.1 Billion Muslims
2006: ?

http://www.islamicpopulation.com/: "We also wanted to show that, by even taking data from General Sources, like CIA Fact Sheet, we can easily establish that fact that total Muslim Population in 2006 is 1.6 billion which is far greater than currently estimated 1.2 or 1.3 billion. Under general source section, we have taken all the datas from popular sources such as CIA Fact Sheet, HOLT,RINEHART & WINSTON etc."

http://www.factbook.net/muslim_pop.php: 1,480,083,062 (date:unknown)

0.700 billion or more, Barnes & Noble Encyclopedia 1993
0.817 billion, The Universal Almanac (1996)
0.951 billion, The Cambridge Factfinder (1993)
1.100 billion, The World Almanac (1997)
1.200 billion, CAIR (Council on American-Islamic relations) (1999)

2000:1,188,242,789: 1.1 Billion Muslims
2006: 1,400,000,000: (0s replace unknown number) 1.4 Billion Muslims*

*=Muslims say 1.5/1.6, others say 1.2/1.3 so 1.4

http://www.newsengin.com/neFreeTools...c?SaveDocumenthttp://www.newsengin.com/neFreeTools.nsf/a72f95a9c87b2eac862565af0057ad66/c5cdd119c8cff64f85256c00004be58c?SaveDocument
Works out percentage change:

Website: "that's a 17.8 percent increase".

So in the last six years 17.8 percent.* Divide by 6 =2.96
That is much higher than 0.5 percent the article claims!

*=Note: averages used.

So per year, Muslims grow 2.96!

Let us renew the table now:

209,020,000 1935 World Almanac and Book of Facts
700,000,000 1983 Readers Digest Almanac and Yearbook
0.700 billion or more, Barnes & Noble Encyclopedia 1993
0.817 billion, The Universal Almanac (1996)
0.951 billion, The Cambridge Factfinder (1993)
1.100 billion, The World Almanac (1997)
1.200 billion, CAIR (Council on American-Islamic relations) (1999)
1,188,242,789: 1.1 Billion Muslims (2000)
1,400,000,000: 1.4 Billion Muslims (2006)*

*note: these figures are randomly taken. At no point did Islam start loosing converts more than it gained. It's a difference of statistics. If i claim 1.3 Muslims in the world and you claim 1.2 next year, it does not mean they decreased.

As you can see, unlike bible.ca which only showed one source, you have a variety of sources there. And Islam is definitly growing fast. Anyone can see that.
Now that is the claim of Islam not growing fast disproven.

Onto birthrates. This is so simple. Wikipedia: "The UN estimated in 2000 that the world's population was then growing at the rate of 1.14% (or about 75 million people) per year [1]. This growth rate has been generally decreasing from its peak at 2.19% in 1963." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_population)

So even at its peak of 2.19 percent in 1963, Islam still beats the birthrate of the ENTIRE WORLD! So there is no way Islamic countries can produce more babies then are being born.

So there is that article completely disproven.

Quote:

In conclusion:
1) There are more Christians added to the world each day than any other religion. The fact is that today, Christianity is the fastest growing religion. That's not to say it couldn't change, but for now, Christianity takes that prize of fastest growing.
2) Islam is not the fastest growing religion on any of the 6 inhabited continents.
3) Islam isn't the fastest growing religion, and only appears to be on the surface with deceptive facts.


In conclusion:

1) Islam is a fast growing religion. I did not prove it was the fastest. But i think i could have. Christianity is most likely lower.
2) Islam does not decieve anyone.
3) Bible.ca should learn things about Muslims before saying any old rubbish to insult them. Lol their worst article is calling Allah a moon god. Now that has to be the stupidest thing they've done.

May God bless you.
loyal
"Does anyone else find this paragraph deeply funny?"

LOL yep i do too. Christians have always hated Islam. No idea why.
loyal
Quote:

It is the Christians who do not believe in Allah's trick. If you read the bible you will know that after the cruci-fiction Jesus came among his followes and when they were afraid, saying it was a ghost, Jesus told them to feel his flesh and see that he is not a Spirit. Christians now stubbornly refuse to acknowlege the teaching and history of Jesus in order to uphold the fictional concept of the Trinity.


Oh great thanks! I will add that to my list.

Quote:

Trying to prove that Islam is growing faster because "Muslims are largest in the developing world where dirt floors, thatched roofs and large families" is really lame because whether Islam is growing due to converts or due to a growth of population inside the Islamic community, scientifically followers of Islam is still growing and apparantly, faster than Christianity.

But obviously Chrsiatianity has reason to be a faster growing religion, given it's large Missionary movement. Islam does not have a huge network of people going to unheard of remote places and converting them from their traditional beliefs. It is funny that despite these missionaries going as far as to go to Arab countries, wearing Hijab and acting like Muslims and slowing trying to mislead the people, in the world Islam is still growing faster.


Lol good point.

Also Christianity missionaries are rubbish. Do you know why Christianity grows fast? Because people come to Christianity. Not many people convert when missionaries knock on your doorstep or come to claiming to bring the religion of truth, when they do not know a thing about yours.
palavra
http://www.interfaithdialog.org/
Soulfire
loyal wrote:
"Does anyone else find this paragraph deeply funny?"

LOL yep i do too. Christians have always hated Islam. No idea why.

I don't hate Islam, I'm just sick of people saying that it's the fastest growing religion when in reality, it's not.

Perhaps the people, the terrorists, who "follow" Islam have (unfortunately) made a name for Islam - and a bad name at that.

Let's look at it like this:
Imagine if people who claimed to follow Christianity flew the airplanes into the twin towers on September 11, 2001. Don't you think peoples' view of Christianity would be distorted?
loyal
Quote:

I don't hate Islam, I'm just sick of people saying that it's the fastest growing religion when in reality, it's not.


Soulfire, i'm sorry if you have a problem believing in the truth. I have proved with several statistics including world birth rate, and records from the cia that Islam is definitly growing faster than the world population.

If you can't accept that, i don't understand how you can believe God exists. I proved it. So believe it.

Whether Islam is the fastest i'm not sure.

Quote:

Perhaps the people, the terrorists, who "follow" Islam have (unfortunately) made a name for Islam - and a bad name at that.

Let's look at it like this:
Imagine if people who claimed to follow Christianity flew the airplanes into the twin towers on September 11, 2001.


Let's look at it like this:
Imagine if people who claimed to follow Islam started making crusades against the Christian west. Or imagine if people who claimed to follow Islam made a spanish inquistion!

Lol. Most religions have a dark history of followers unrightfully shedding blood. Even christianity has this history.
hyhy
I would say that percent of christians converted to atheists is much more than atheists converted to christians.
loyal
Does anyone have some statistics that i can work with to figure out the growth rate of Christianity?

I need at least two recent statistics between 2000 and 2006.
The statistics need to be the total population of people claiming to be Christian. I need two of these.
swapnalokam
damn... people are trying to prove which one grows much larger... this seems actually funny for me.. hey any hindus here... should we get in... we are one sixth of the whole population anybody know that.. since hinduism is the way of life... every single body in indian sub continent is defined as a hindu.. including pakistan, bangladesh, nepal, parts of tibet and srilanka.. hey... since we are one sixth of the world can we get in this argument... Wink Wink .. just kiddin.. you guys go ahead.. Iam listening..

but one personal opinion though.. I do not belive in bible completely.. as you said.. noah flood was a city not the entire world.. I heard one time the logical explanation of the 10 plagues by moses.. I do not remember it completely.. but I can give what remains in my brain.. (I forgot the river name..) the river flooded into nile.. causing the level of (a kind of) bacterias to rise.. turning the water to red and killing fishes.. which caused frogs to escape to land.. attracting some kind of flies.. ( belive it is the order) infection causing all animals to die.. since.. most of eldest son where on the field (they are incharge) they died of infection too.. (it was exageration that all first born died).. apparently... the stone showering.. was a result of some volcanic eruption..

ok guys.. this is all I got.. damn.. I wish I was good at argument.. why do I keep forgetting stuff... but I know for damn sure.. there are misinterpretations, and exagerations a lot.. like.. the mis translation of "yam suph" the word " Yam suph" the point where mosess crossed the water.. "Yam suph" means "sea reads" which was mis translated as Red Sea by greeks.. and stuff like that.. there is a lot of them in bible... No offense guys.. but that is the truth... so I hope somebody is gonna comment me hard on this... thanks..
cbf-cma
I converted from Salami to Pastrami last week. It was a tough choice but the guys at Subway told me it was worth it. Frankly, I think pastrami has a more old style wholesome taste while salami is a bit fattier. Like I said it was a tough choice because I love them both but you know -- you can't have both of two things, it has to be one or the other. That's just how religion is. You have to completely be one way or not at all, there's no moderation in belief. So goodnight and God bless this Pastrami. It's friggen delicious! I love you all!
jipmerite
Extremists,
barbarians,
fundamentalits,
terrorists,

Just few of the first words that come to mind when one hears of Islam, Muslims, Arabs, Middle East.

The questions is not whether Islam is the fastest growing religion. The real question, the one not many want to ask, is WHY are so many Christians opting to leave their religion of Grace, forgiveness, sophistication, moderation, tolerance and change over to this 'backward' belief that is Islam.

This despite the huge Anti-Islamic propaganda of misinformation against Islam.

WHY?
loyal
Quote:

damn... people are trying to prove which one grows much larger... this seems actually funny for me.. hey any hindus here... should we get in... we are one sixth of the whole population anybody know that.. since hinduism is the way of life... every single body in indian sub continent is defined as a hindu.. including pakistan, bangladesh, nepal, parts of tibet and srilanka.. hey... since we are one sixth of the world can we get in this argument... Wink Wink .. just kiddin.. you guys go ahead.. Iam listening..


Lol. Funny guy. Hindus might be growing fast too.

Quote:

but one personal opinion though.. I do not belive in bible completely.. as you said.. noah flood was a city not the entire world.. I heard one time the logical explanation of the 10 plagues by moses.. I do not remember it completely.. but I can give what remains in my brain.. (I forgot the river name..) the river flooded into nile.. causing the level of (a kind of) bacterias to rise.. turning the water to red and killing fishes.. which caused frogs to escape to land.. attracting some kind of flies.. ( belive it is the order) infection causing all animals to die.. since.. most of eldest son where on the field (they are incharge) they died of infection too.. (it was exageration that all first born died).. apparently... the stone showering.. was a result of some volcanic eruption..


Yeah, some miracles can be explained. The Bible is corrupt. But noone can explain the miracle of the bread with Jesus/Elisha?

Quote:

ok guys.. this is all I got.. damn.. I wish I was good at argument.. why do I keep forgetting stuff... but I know for damn sure.. there are misinterpretations, and exagerations a lot.. like.. the mis translation of "yam suph" the word " Yam suph" the point where mosess crossed the water.. "Yam suph" means "sea reads" which was mis translated as Red Sea by greeks.. and stuff like that.. there is a lot of them in bible... No offense guys.. but that is the truth... so I hope somebody is gonna comment me hard on this... thanks..


I really don't know much about translation. But my latin teacher says the translation is the reed sea or the red sea. They are not sure which.
loyal
Quote:

Extremists,
barbarians,
fundamentalits,
terrorists,

Just few of the first words that come to mind when one hears of Islam, Muslims, Arabs, Middle East.

The questions is not whether Islam is the fastest growing religion. The real question, the one not many want to ask, is WHY are so many Christians opting to leave their religion of Grace, forgiveness, sophistication, moderation, tolerance and change over to this 'backward' belief that is Islam.

This despite the huge Anti-Islamic propaganda of misinformation against Islam.

WHY?


Maybe the converts need machine guns. I've got a couple of AK47s spare if anyone wants to convert Wink Lol i am kidding.
swapnalokam
well.. it is kind of true.. since hinduism is not a relegion.. and since we do not force people to convert or even try to convert other to hinduism.. we do not grow as fast as other people... you know how we grow.. the population... second largest population... we are still climbing... Wink so Iam sure we will not go back.. you can't convert from hindusim.. unless.. you move out to other european countires.. you can't live like romans in india.. right? so you can't convert to another idea and still live in India.. when we migrate to other countries we are trying not to go out of hinduism.. "no matter what relegion you are.. you can be a good hindu in india.." Cool
mgumn
Quote:
Introduction:

We have collected the latest statistics from David A. Barrett’s huge two volume, "World Christian Encyclopedia", the 2001 AD edition.



this source is biased and therefore unusable as proof...
...this is a typical christian trick, use a biased source and present it as fact, its the same chesnut that the intelligent design/creationists use and it is frankly cheap.
mgumn
Anyway back to the actual TOPIC of the thread...

I was brought up in a basically Christian Family but only went to church twice a year for midnight mass and christingle. Both my parents taught me the value of choice, and reason, and religion seemed to exclude both.

When I started studying biology at a higher level I made the decision that the love of my life (biology) and religion were irreconcilable, so I chose to lead my life by reason. Being at university has strengthened my belief that religion has nothing to offer me personally.

I suppose I am an atheist, but I don’t really like atheist vitriolating, because if you are trying to convert people to atheism you are as bad as any other Christian/Muslim/any other religious preacher pretending the are morally more important that you.

I am however a staunch defender of evolution as FACT, and I am sick of having to argue with barking terriers of ignorance indoctrinated by idiocy.
loyal
Quote:

When I started studying biology at a higher level I made the decision that the love of my life (biology) and religion were irreconcilable, so I chose to lead my life by reason. Being at university has strengthened my belief that religion has nothing to offer me personally.


Well, i am not trying to convert you now, but religion does offer you spirituality. Nothing can offer that except religion. Besides you are basically saying religion and science are imcompatible. Yet i doubt you have considered that one of the Holy Books of God may have a lot of science in. E.g. Holy Qur'an of the Muslims has stuff like the water cycle, big bang, layers on the earth and so on.

Quote:

I suppose I am an atheist, but I don’t really like atheist vitriolating, because if you are trying to convert people to atheism you are as bad as any other Christian/Muslim/any other religious preacher pretending the are morally more important that you.


I do not understand why it is bad to try and convert someone. Surely if someone tries to convert you until you say "stop", they are doing what they think is right? They are trying to guide you to truth.

Quote:

I am however a staunch defender of evolution as FACT, and I am sick of having to argue with barking terriers of ignorance indoctrinated by idiocy.


I'm sorry to destroy this belief of yours, but evolution is partly false because of that lier darwin.

Try reading all the articles on http://allaahuakbar.net/ATHEIST/evolution/index.htm

Quote:

Trilobites, one of the oldest living species, appeared 530 million years ago. Their eyes represent the first visual system in the world. These eyes, with their extremely sophisticated and flawless design, deal a fatal blow to the claim of the theory of evolution that "Life evolved from primitive to advanced forms".
mgumn
irreducible design is NOT and argument against evolution. i amnot even going to be drawn into a debate with someone of faith, i cannot argue with you.

foe example on your site that purports to contain truth i find this statement

Quote:
he eyes of humans and other living beings, however, are much more complex and perfect than the most advanced camera in the world


um probably not. In the eyes of mammals the rods and cones (the cells that detect light) are back to front, with the nervous connections on the front. i checked in my eos 300d and the connections to the cmos sensor to not run infront of the field of vision.

see

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_the_eye
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye

To your last comment

Quote:
I'm sorry to destroy this belief of yours, but evolution is partly false because of that lier darwin.


why is Darwin a liar? have you ever read any of his works. If you had you may have noticed that very rarely does darwin make any claims of proof, far from it, it is actually quite a self doubting work. It is basically like this "i noticed this... which could be explained like this......but if this was ever found it would disprove it completely" it isnt a very exciting book to be honest, skip it completely. If you would like to read up on evolution and make your own decision, instead of just listening to what you have been could try:

the selfish gene: Richard Dawkins
The Blind Watchmaker: Richard Dawkins
The Pandas Thumb and Other essays: Stephen Gould

in exchange i will read the Quoran (Q'oran? i'm sorry if i have got that wrong) i will have to read an english translation, which i have heard is not as beautiful as the origonal.
jipmerite
If Athiesm is a belief that there is no God, can it be called a religion at all? Isn't athiesm a complete lack of religion? And if so, can someone be converted into a religion that is a complete lack of religion?!

Confusing.... Confused
mgumn
i think that the questions you are asking whilst valid, probably dont matter outside a philosophy class. You can convert to atheism in as much as you take an active effort to think like an atheist, although there is no official welcome ceremony Laughing
loyal
Quote:

irreducible design is NOT and argument against evolution. i amnot even going to be drawn into a debate with someone of faith, i cannot argue with you.


I'm not most people. I can be argued with. I'm not blind by faith.

There were many arguments against evolution. You haven't argued against all of them i notice.

Quote:

foe example on your site that purports to contain truth i find this statement

Quote:
he eyes of humans and other living beings, however, are much more complex and perfect than the most advanced camera in the world


um probably not. In the eyes of mammals the rods and cones (the cells that detect light) are back to front, with the nervous connections on the front. i checked in my eos 300d and the connections to the cmos sensor to not run infront of the field of vision.


It said COMPLEX.

Quote:

Quote:
I'm sorry to destroy this belief of yours, but evolution is partly false because of that lier darwin.


why is Darwin a liar? have you ever read any of his works. If you had you may have noticed that very rarely does darwin make any claims of proof, far from it, it is actually quite a self doubting work. It is basically like this "i noticed this... which could be explained like this......but if this was ever found it would disprove it completely" it isnt a very exciting book to be honest, skip it completely. If you would like to read up on evolution and make your own decision, instead of just listening to what you have been could try:

the selfish gene: Richard Dawkins
The Blind Watchmaker: Richard Dawkins
The Pandas Thumb and Other essays: Stephen Gould


Paul the apostale is self doubting someitmes. He's still a liar like darwin.

Quote:

in exchange i will read the Quoran (Q'oran? i'm sorry if i have got that wrong) i will have to read an english translation, which i have heard is not as beautiful as the origonal.


Correct. None of the beauty is transformed into the english.

I'll PM you...
loyal
Quote:

If Athiesm is a belief that there is no God, can it be called a religion at all? Isn't athiesm a complete lack of religion? And if so, can someone be converted into a religion that is a complete lack of religion?!

Confusing....


No idea lol. But lots of atheists are similar. That's why people tend to group them. The two main types of atheists as far as religious people are concerned are the type that does not want to look at what religion has to offer and the type that does not know what religion has to offer.
Kaneda
loyal wrote:
Quote:

If Athiesm is a belief that there is no God, can it be called a religion at all? Isn't athiesm a complete lack of religion? And if so, can someone be converted into a religion that is a complete lack of religion?!

Confusing....


No idea lol. But lots of atheists are similar. That's why people tend to group them. The two main types of atheists as far as religious people are concerned are the type that does not want to look at what religion has to offer and the type that does not know what religion has to offer.


To answer jipmerite's question, no, as has been explained and discussed plenty of times in just about every thread that even mentions atheism on this forum, atheism is not a religion by any definition. Smile But go ahead and call it that if you want to, as long as you don't base an argument on it Wink

As for your second statement, I'm glad you made the qualification that this is "as far as religious people are concerned", because it's a gross misrepresentation. Actually, speaking for all religious people makes it a misrepresentation too.

Most people who'd actually call themselves atheists know very well what religion has to offer. In many cases they know more about religion, each religion's teachings, and the purpose of belief, than most religious people. Most of them have already looked at what it has to offer, and they've come to one of several conclusions, the only common point being that they decide to not believe in a god or gods. People who haven't given it any thought at all rarely call themselves atheist.

What the statement really amounts to is that "as far as religious people are concerned", their view is the only valid one - and that this is objective fact. If someone doesn't agree with them, it's either because they don't know any better, or they try to repress the "truth", knowing full well that they're "missing out".

That's simply close-minded. And I know plenty of religious people who don't think that way.

As for converting, and the subtopic of Christianity/Islam/whatever being the fastest growing religion... In any census, I'll be counted as a Christian - an Evangelical Lutheran Protestant. Simply because I've been a member of that church (the national Danish church) since I was less than a year old. I was born, baptised and confirmed an "ELP". I pay taxes to support the church. I've been educated in bible matters at school since I was 6 or 7.

But I've never "converted" to atheism - I've always been an atheist, because, somewhat like Subsonic Sound, I don't have a reason to believe. Not because of science or lack of proof, but simply because I don't have a reason. If someone else does, fine, I'm not going to try and convince them otherwise. Smile

I'm only Christian by name. All it takes for me to end that is to write the local church council and tell them I want to end my "subscription". I don't, because I don't mind paying (through taxes) to support an important part of Danish culture, whether I get anything directly out of it or not. But it does mean one more person is counted as Christian who really isn't. And I know there are many many more of those.

One thing as a sidenote:

EDIT: Oops, added something to the wrong post.
loyal
Quote:

As for your second statement, I'm glad you made the qualification that this is "as far as religious people are concerned", because it's a gross misrepresentation. Actually, speaking for all religious people makes it a misrepresentation too.

Most people who'd actually call themselves atheists know very well what religion has to offer.


Wrong. It's the opposite. Most people who'd call themselves atheists know very little what religion has to offer.

Quote:

In many cases they know more about religion, each religion's teachings, and the purpose of belief, than most religious people.


Yeah right! Most people know very little. Most Christians, and i mean most, know nothing about Islam. The same applies to atheists.

Quote:

Most of them have already looked at what it has to offer, and they've come to one of several conclusions, the only common point being that they decide to not believe in a god or gods. People who haven't given it any thought at all rarely call themselves atheist.


Yes they do. All the time. And they call themselves Christian too.

Quote:

But I've never "converted" to atheism - I've always been an atheist, because, somewhat like Subsonic Sound, I don't have a reason to believe. Not because of science or lack of proof, but simply because I don't have a reason. If someone else does, fine, I'm not going to try and convince them otherwise.


I think i could give you a reason to believe...PM me if interested.
Kaneda
loyal wrote:
Wrong. It's the opposite. Most people who'd call themselves atheists know very little what religion has to offer.


Quote:
Yeah right! Most people know very little. Most Christians, and i mean most, know nothing about Islam. The same applies to atheists.


Yes, so you said. This discussion isn't going to develop by way of Monty Pythonesque arguments.

Quote:
Quote:
People who haven't given it any thought at all rarely call themselves atheist.

Yes they do. All the time. And they call themselves Christian too.


If you wish to think so, feel free. Most religious people do find it comforting to think they're the only people who've thought things through. That way, it's harder for others (and themselves) to question their belief structure.

Quote:
I think i could give you a reason to believe...PM me if interested.


You can PM me if you think it's worth it. After 28 years, I doubt you have any reason that I haven't heard about 20 times before. When I say "I have no reason to believe", what I mean is, believing would add no value to my life. I have my cosmology settled; I have a well-developed sense of wonder at nature, people and the world in general; my morality works fine; and my life has meaning. Those aspects are, in a nutshell, what religion offers. And I have them. Believe it or not Wink

loyal wrote:
Glorious Qur'an [4:82]: Why do they not study the Quran carefully? If it were from other than GOD, they would have found in it numerous contradictions.


Of course, the general idea is, they did find in it numerous contradictions. That's why Islam has the wonderful concept of naskh Wink
mgumn
loyal wrote:
Yeah right! Most people know very little. Most Christians, and i mean most, know nothing about Islam..


i would have to agree, at least in as far as what i am aware as to the situation is in the UK.

i am the only person i know who studied islam whilst at school, not become a muslim, but look at its features, this is because i had an extremely enlightened RE teacher, who obviously realised that understanding is acceptance, and acceptance is peace. I expect the situation is worse in the US did you see the first "thirty days" when the guy had to go live in a muslim household, he just had no idea at all...

my point its this, at a time when we need to understand each other (i mean as individual human beings) we seem to be drifting into defensive, extremist groups, look at the world today...
mgumn
loyal wrote:
the type that does not want to look at what religion has to offer and the type that does not know what religion has to offer.


i find this shows a complete lack of understanding for what i personally stand for. I have found myself many times, probably more than some normal people, at the low of the low, during my fight with depression. At these time i have asked myself, am i missing faith in my life is this why i feel like this, but then i find religion so incompatable with my beliefs i find it has little to give to my life and i have little to give back.

Alot of christians i know do loads and loads of charity work, and i think i would be correct that as a muslim you are expected to give some of your earnings to charity if your can afford to do so. But i would rather do a good deed because i can, because i believe in the brilliance of the human spirit alone.
loyal
Quote:

Of course, the general idea is, they did find in it numerous contradictions. That's why Islam has the wonderful concept of naskh


Lol. Take it from me, who's look at 60 'contradictions' from the christians. It's flawless. Naskh is a incorrect invention and not supported by the Qur'an. It's like the hadiths. Not supported, but upto to the Muslim to accept them or not. The difference is Naskh is directly said to be false in the Qur'an.

If you find ANY contradictions, please PM me.

Quote:

You can PM me if you think it's worth it. After 28 years, I doubt you have any reason that I haven't heard about 20 times before. When I say "I have no reason to believe", what I mean is, believing would add no value to my life. I have my cosmology settled; I have a well-developed sense of wonder at nature, people and the world in general; my morality works fine; and my life has meaning. Those aspects are, in a nutshell, what religion offers. And I have them. Believe it or not


I'm not sure if i should PM you. It depends on a) whether you are closeminded or not b) whether you do NOT WANT to believe.

It's only if YOU WANT. I'm not most people. You're worth my time.

It's upto you.

May God bless you.
loyal
Quote:

At these time i have asked myself, am i missing faith in my life is this why i feel like this, but then i find religion so incompatable with my beliefs i find it has little to give to my life and i have little to give back.


Religion incompatable? Are you making Christianity 'all religions'? Sikhism, Islam, hinduism are religions i bet you do not know about.

Quote:

Alot of christians i know do loads and loads of charity work, and i think i would be correct that as a muslim you are expected to give some of your earnings to charity if your can afford to do so. But i would rather do a good deed because i can, because i believe in the brilliance of the human spirit alone.


2.5 percent to be exact.
But giving to charity is voluntary in the way that if you do not give, noone's going to make you give.

Brillance of the human spirit? Most people are no way brillant. Although we do get the odd brillant person.
The odd person who is brillant is rare.
mgumn
Quote:
The odd person who is brillant is rare.


you sure? you probably need to just open your eyes. I find even the rudest least civil person is amazing, i need to know why they are the way they are

Quote:
Religion incompatable? Are you making Christianity 'all religions'? Sikhism, Islam, hinduism are religions i bet you do not know about.


i have a reasonable knowledge of christianity, and a basic understanding of islam and buddhism, as well as experience in aikido which is a faith system as much as in is a marshall art.
loyal
Quote:

you sure? you probably need to just open your eyes. I find even the rudest least civil person is amazing, i need to know why they are the way they are


That does not mean they are amazing. You just want to find out what makes them tick. You should be a phycologist.

What's your job?

Quote:

i have a reasonable knowledge of christianity, and a basic understanding of islam and buddhism, as well as experience in aikido which is a faith system as much as in is a marshall art.


Hmmm...that's okay then.
mgumn
i'm studying Biology at the University of Bristol UK, i stack shelves at the local supermarket to make money during the holidays
knullasvensk
I love the fact that someone hyphenated crucifixion.



Allah, God, Yaweh ALL THE SAME PEOPLE.



I was raised with a Christian Reformed father and a Jewish mother.


Iknow alot about both.
Soulfire
jipmerite wrote:
If Athiesm is a belief that there is no God, can it be called a religion at all? Isn't athiesm a complete lack of religion? And if so, can someone be converted into a religion that is a complete lack of religion?!

Confusing.... Confused

Depends on what your definition of religion is. If religion to you is a set of beliefs, then I think atheism falls under religion, it's just religion with no god.
Kaneda
loyal wrote:
Quote:
You can PM me if you think it's worth it. After 28 years, I doubt you have any reason that I haven't heard about 20 times before. When I say "I have no reason to believe", what I mean is, believing would add no value to my life. I have my cosmology settled; I have a well-developed sense of wonder at nature, people and the world in general; my morality works fine; and my life has meaning. Those aspects are, in a nutshell, what religion offers. And I have them. Believe it or not


I'm not sure if i should PM you. It depends on a) whether you are closeminded or not b) whether you do NOT WANT to believe.

It's only if YOU WANT. I'm not most people. You're worth my time.

It's upto you.

May God bless you.


Sorry for the slow reply Smile

a) Close-minded, depends on your definition. To many a religious person, close-minded means not being willing to take over their belief, when the "facts" are "right there". In that case, yes, I'm close-minded. That's called scepticism. I don't replace my world view because some "authority" (real or imagined) thinks I should. To me, close-minded means two things:

1. Not being able to understand the views of others, if they're not the same as your own - even if understanding doesn't mean you have to view things the same way.

2. Actively avoiding to change your world view when you're clearly wrong. In matters of religion, however, the only person who knows if you're "clearly wrong" is yourself. An example...

A Christian may tell me that the Bible "predicted" that the Earth was round. I'll then tell him that to begin with, the hebrew word used in the verse of Isaiah, which he so loves to show to all the "heathens", is Chet-Vav-Gimel (ChVG). ChVG means... circle, not sphere. There are more steps to that discusssion (for example, I'd argue that a lot of people, when having to make a qualified guess, would submit that the earth is indeed round - it's not like there aren't clues), but that will lead us off topic.

The point is, just because the religious person thinks this is indisputable evidence, doesn't mean I do. And does me not thinking so make me close-minded? No, I have very well founded reasons not to think so. I'd say the religious person's argument doesn't hold up. He'd say mine doesn't. It once again ends as a matter of belief. This goes for every single "fact" in the bible. Even its value as historical document is disputed.

On a side note, as indicated earlier, I don't see the point in trying to prove the Bible or Qu'ran by means of science. I wouldn't need religion to be proven as fact in order to believe. I'd just need to have a reason to adopt such a mindset. Which I don't.

Which leads us to b)...

Do I want to believe? Nope. Do I want to NOT believe? Not really. Could be cynical and say "I don't care". Again, I see no reason, because it's a complication of life with no "gain" - for me. This is another matter of belief, because the majority of religious people will simply not accept this. I must be missing something, because they know they'd be missing something without religion (Now who's close-minded? Wink)

Would I like to hear your reasons, though? Certainly. Because one very important part of my life is understanding others. That's really why I'm on these forums - I don't use the webspace Wink

So by all means, since you have some interesting input to these forums - some of which I agree with, many of which I don't - I'd always be interested in hearing what you have to say Smile

(I think this has at least something to do with "Did you convert?")
jipmerite
Does anyone know a website made for testemonials by people who converted from other religions to Islam?

I think it'll be a good idea to make such a site. I myself do not have the resources to pull it off.
swapnalokam
hi jipmerit.. I will make the whole site for you... or other wise.. I will setup some way people can put testimonies for their conversions.. but if you are ready to publish it and make it popular.. then yes.. I will do it... just PM me.. I will be happy to help you in any way..
loyal
Peace be upon youall.

jipmerite,

Hmmm...converts? Well i know a few websites myself.

http://www.convertstoislam.com/
http://www.convertstoislam.org/
http://www.islamonline.net/English/Discover_Islam/MyJourneytoIslam/index.shtml
http://www.islamfortoday.com/converts.htm
http://www.salaam.co.uk/themeofthemonth/june02_index.php?l=6 (fameous converts)
http://www.jews-for-allah.org/Jewish-Converts-to-Islam/

If you make a website, please PM me the hyperlink.0

may God bless you.
tyrant
I'd never convert, simply because i was born into hinduism which is not a religion but a way of life, just like buddhism. I don't believe in religion. No 1 has the right to tell you how to live your life, nor to set rules in which everyone must follow (ironically most of us have relinquished our religious half) , every religion claims that there is only god, not a universal 1, but 1 and only 1 that came from their religion.

You guys argue over christianity and islam, in which being the fastest growing religion , which having the highest penetration rate, and regardless of the statistics, fact is, this two religions are almost identical so much so that each calls the other a copy of the the 1 true religion. -_-, Most of the religious wars of catastrophic damages, were between the 2 of these religions.

No offence, but i find it pathetic that people have become so dependant on religion , so many pointless wars, deaths, losses all in the name of man-made religions. By the way i am no atheist, i believe in god as a higher power, but i'm not 1 who believes that he controls all our destinies, that all our fates have been written on the day we were born and so on and forth...

ahh sorry i have this habit of digressing to much -_-, it doesn't matter which religion your born into, or which you convert to, in your mother's womb as a foetus were we aware of religion?, when we die , what are the chances are that our last thought was about our religion, we come into this world naked, and we leave this place the same way.
S3nd K3ys
Subsonic Sound wrote:
Quote:
The Islamic religion has a long history of myth making. The claim they are the fastest growing religion in the world is pure myth. We have collected the latest statistics from David A. Barrett’s huge two volume, "World Christian Encyclopedia"


Does anyone else find this paragraph deeply funny?


I find it very accurate. Islam has constantly 'skewed' or completely re-written historical facts. Even in modern day, (radical) Islam lies to gain popularity.

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=worldNews&storyid=2006-09-02T174900Z_01_L02687203_RTRUKOC_0_US-SECURTIY-QAEDA-TAPE.xml&src=rss&rpc=22

Quote:
Qaeda urges non-Muslims to convert to Islam: video
Sat Sep 2, 2006 1:49pm ET138
Email This Article | Print This Article | Reprints
[-] Text [+]

DUBAI (Reuters) - Al Qaeda called on non-Muslims especially in the United States to convert to Islam and abandon their 'misguided' ways or else suffer, according to a video tape posted on a Web site on Saturday.

The speaker was identified as Azzam the American, also known as Adam Yahiye Gadahn -- an Islamic convert from California wanted for questioning by the FBI and who U.S. authorities believe to be involved in an information campaign for al Qaeda.

"To Americans and the rest of Christendom we say, either repent (your) misguided ways and enter into the light of truth or keep your poison to yourself and suffer the consequences in this world and the next," Gadahn said in English.

He appeared in the video dressed in a white turban and seated in front of a computer and books.

Al Qaeda's second-in-command Ayman al-Zawhari made a brief statement at the beginning of the tape -- dated September 2006 -- urging viewers to listen carefully to the message, entitled: "An Invitation to Islam".
loyal
S3nd K3ys wrote:

I find it very accurate. Islam has constantly 'skewed' or completely re-written historical facts. Even in modern day, (radical) Islam lies to gain popularity.


Wrong. All real historians agree that the Islamic period was golden.

It must be actually strange to you how Islam is growing so fast, yet you think it lies about everything.

Quote:
Qaeda urges non-Muslims to convert to Islam: video
Sat Sep 2, 2006 1:49pm ET138
Email This Article | Print This Article | Reprints
[-] Text [+]

DUBAI (Reuters) - Al Qaeda called on non-Muslims especially in the United States to convert to Islam and abandon their 'misguided' ways or else suffer, according to a video tape posted on a Web site on Saturday.

The speaker was identified as Azzam the American, also known as Adam Yahiye Gadahn -- an Islamic convert from California wanted for questioning by the FBI and who U.S. authorities believe to be involved in an information campaign for al Qaeda.

"To Americans and the rest of Christendom we say, either repent (your) misguided ways and enter into the light of truth or keep your poison to yourself and suffer the consequences in this world and the next," Gadahn said in English.

He appeared in the video dressed in a white turban and seated in front of a computer and books.

Al Qaeda's second-in-command Ayman al-Zawhari made a brief statement at the beginning of the tape -- dated September 2006 -- urging viewers to listen carefully to the message, entitled: "An Invitation to Islam".


Obviously noone would convert to Islam because of this message. get real. no Muslim even pays attention to osma bin laden and his gang of hypocrites.
Soulfire
Quote:
Wrong. All real historians agree that the Islamic period was golden.

It must be actually strange to you how Islam is growing so fast, yet you think it lies about everything.

And you can just 100% conclude that all historians agree. I don't believe that, and you can't say that. What exactly is this Islamic period you speak of?

The only reason Islam is growing is because of uncontrollable and rediculously high birth rates in Islamic countries, not because of peoples' choice (although some do choose).

Quote:
Obviously noone would convert to Islam because of this message. get real. no Muslim even pays attention to osma bin laden and his gang of hypocrites.

That explains why time and time again there are terrorists or "freedom fighters" that are killing the innocent all in the name of this Allah, all in the name of this religion we know as Islam...

I'm not saying whether or not it's true Islam, but I am saying that the people who claim that the only way to Heaven is to kill the non-Muslims is distorting the picture for everyone.
loyal
Soulfire wrote:

And you can just 100% conclude that all historians agree. I don't believe that, and you can't say that. What exactly is this Islamic period you speak of?


It's true because it happened. Historians agree.

There was a period in the history of Muslims where they became extremely powerful, and advanced. This is called the 'Golden age of Islam'. It lasted from the 9th century to the 17th century. Here's what i compiled a while ago:

"
Islam had a golden age:
The great age of Islam made the base that the West stands on. It invented the decimal positioning numbering, banks. Ceramics, glass, metalwork, textiles, illuminated manuscripts, and woodwork flourished. Lustered glass became the greatest Islamic contribution to ceramics. Manuscript illumination became an important and greatly respected art, and portrait miniature painting flourished in Persia. Persian scientist Ibn Sina and Ibn Rushd played a major role in saving the works of Aristotle, whose ideas came to dominate the non-religious thought of the Christian and Muslim worlds. They would also absorb ideas from China, and India, adding to them tremendous knowledge from their own studies. The difference in attitudes of Byzantine scientists and their medieval Muslim peers was firm. Byzantium added little to no new knowledge of science of medicine to the Greco-Roman scientific tradition, stagnating in awe of their classical predecessors. Most notable Islamic scientists lived and practiced during the Islamic Golden Age. Among the achievements of Muslim scholars during this period were the invention of spherical trigonometry, advances in optics and advances in astronomy.
Medicine was a central part of medieval Islamic culture. Responding to circumstances of time and place, Islamic physicians and scholars developed a large and complex medical literature exploring and synthesizing the theory and practice of medicine. Islamic medicine was built on tradition, chiefly the theoretical and practical knowledge developed in Greece, Rome, and Persia. For Islamic scholars, Galen and Hippocrates were pre-eminent authorities, followed by Hellenic scholars in Alexandria. Islamic scholars translated their voluminous writings from Greek into Arabic and then produced new medical knowledge based on those texts. In order to make the Greek tradition more accessible, understandable, and teachable, Islamic scholars ordered and made more systematic the vast and sometimes inconsistent Greco-Roman medical knowledge by writing encyclopedias and summaries. (from the National Library of Medicine digital archives)

It was through Arabic translations that the West learned of Hellenic medicine, including the works of Galen and Hippocrates. Of equal if not of greater influence in Western Europe were systematic and comprehensive works such as Avicenna's The Canon of Medicine, which were translated into Latin and then disseminated in manuscript and printed form throughout Europe. During the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries alone, The Canon of Medicine was published more than thirty-five times. (from the National Library of Medicine digital archives)

In the medieval Islamic world, hospitals were built in all major cities; in Cairo for example, the Qalawun Hospital could care for 8,000 patients, and a staff that included physicians, pharmacists, and nurses. One could also access a dispensary, and research facility that led to advances in understanding contagious diseases, and research into optics and the mechanisms of the eye. Indeed, Muslim doctors were removing cataracts with hollow needles over 1000 years before Westerners dared attempt such a task.
Technology and Industry of Islamic civilization was highly developed. Distillation techniques supported a flourishing perfume industry, while chemical ceramic glazes were developed constantly to compete with ceramics imported from China. A scientific approach to metallurgy made it easier to adopt and improve steel technologies from India and China. Primary exports included manufactured luxuries, such as wood carving, metal and glass, textiles, and ceramics.
Business partnerships would be made for many commercial ventures, and bonds of kinship enabled trade networks to form over huge distances. Networks developed during this time enabled a world in which money could be promised by a bank in Baghdad and cashed in Spain, creating the check system of today.
Muslim sailors were also responsible for reintroducing large three masted merchant vessels to the Mediterranean. The caravels used by Italian explorer Christopher Columbus were in fact, based on designs by earlier Muslim Andalusian vessels. An artificial canal linking the Nile with the Gulf of Suez was constructed, conversely linking the Red Sea with the Mediterranean although it silted up several times.
"

Quote:

The only reason Islam is growing is because of uncontrollable and rediculously high birth rates in Islamic countries, not because of peoples' choice (although some do choose).


You must be very blind. I have proved to you using numbers that the growth rate of Islam is higher than the growth rate of the world population! This means that it cannot be because of birth rates.

It's actually funny how you brought an article that says Islam grows very slowly at 0.5 then it claims the only reason it grows fast is because of birth rate.

Extract from what i wrote earlier in this thread:

"
2.96 is the growth rate of Islam
That is much higher than 0.5 percent the article claims!

*=Note: averages used.

So per year, Muslims grow 2.96!

Let us renew the table now:

209,020,000 1935 World Almanac and Book of Facts
700,000,000 1983 Readers Digest Almanac and Yearbook
0.700 billion or more, Barnes & Noble Encyclopedia 1993
0.817 billion, The Universal Almanac (1996)
0.951 billion, The Cambridge Factfinder (1993)
1.100 billion, The World Almanac (1997)
1.200 billion, CAIR (Council on American-Islamic relations) (1999)
1,188,242,789: 1.1 Billion Muslims (2000)
1,400,000,000: 1.4 Billion Muslims (2006)*

*note: these figures are randomly taken. At no point did Islam start loosing converts more than it gained. It's a difference of statistics. If i claim 1.3 Muslims in the world and you claim 1.2 next year, it does not mean they decreased.

As you can see, unlike bible.ca which only showed one source, you have a variety of sources there. And Islam is definitly growing fast. Anyone can see that.
Now that is the claim of Islam not growing fast disproven.

Onto birthrates. This is so simple. Wikipedia: "The UN estimated in 2000 that the world's population was then growing at the rate of 1.14% (or about 75 million people) per year [1]. This growth rate has been generally decreasing from its peak at 2.19% in 1963." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_population)

So even at its peak of 2.19 percent in 1963, Islam still beats the birthrate of the ENTIRE WORLD! So there is no way Islamic countries can produce more babies then are being born.

So there is that article completely disproven.
"

As you can see, Islam has a growth rate of 2.96% while the world population has a growth rate of 1.14% (in 2000). Islam still beats the world population growth rate's peak which is 2.19% (in 1963).

Quote:

That explains why time and time again there are terrorists or "freedom fighters" that are killing the innocent all in the name of this Allah, all in the name of this religion we know as Islam...


'this Allah' is your God too. The word Allah comes from the Hebrew Eloah (also spelt Eloh, Eloih, Alah). When Eloah is plural, it becames Elohim. Elohim is used for God many times in the Bible.
Recently Father Pecerillo, a famous Franciscan Archaeologist, found more than twenty churches in Madaba at the south of Jordan. From the Forth Century we found houses in Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Palestine with this inscription in Arabic :"Bismi Allah al-Rahman al-Raheem" which shows that even people before Islam used this Holy name, "Allah", for GOD Almighty, which proves that the name of GOD Almighty in the Noble Quran, "Allah", is the correct one. There are still missing pieces in it that disprove trinity.

Further discoveries from an Arabic Roman Catholic website at http://www.al-bushra.org/arbhrtg/arbxtn04.htm

Quote:

I'm not saying whether or not it's true Islam, but I am saying that the people who claim that the only way to Heaven is to kill the non-Muslims is distorting the picture for everyone.


Yep. You can be a non-Muslim and still get to Heaven, according to Islam.

May God bless you.
randy
Quote:
Onto birthrates. This is so simple. Wikipedia: "The UN estimated in 2000 that the world's population was then growing at the rate of 1.14% (or about 75 million people) per year [1]. This growth rate has been generally decreasing from its peak at 2.19% in 1963." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_population)

So even at its peak of 2.19 percent in 1963, Islam still beats the birthrate of the ENTIRE WORLD! So there is no way Islamic countries can produce more babies then are being born.

So there is that article completely disproven.


Thank you for treating percentages as total values. We are all stupider for having heard that. If the percentage birth rate in Islam is higher than the percentage birth rate for the entire world, this does not mean that more Muslims are being born than total humans. The percentage for Muslims would have to be over triple the total percent birth rate for the world before they would be doing the impossible.
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