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Windows XP vs Mac OS X





Xeniczone
Here I want to discuss FACTUAL problems with both Windows XP and Mac OS X.

I'm going to start with Mac.

Mac OS X: based of Mac OS X 10.2.8

Problems I have faced with Mac OS X are;

1. Dock menu: The dock menu is a great thing in my opition but this isn't about opitions. The problem with that dock menu as I see are 2.

The first problem with the dock menu is opening an application. I can click it and it will open, but if I like to open another I must go to the top and click file/new or file/open new window. Which can really get annoying when I want to login and open 3 internets because I want to look up 3 things.

The second problem is when I have more then 1 windows open at a time. I can't scroll through that 3 seperate windows. Using Command+tab or the dock menu, because it groups it as one application. Though I can minimize the windows and surf through all the windows I have open it just doesn't work with all the windows maximized or such.

2. Hardware: This only becomes a issue when upgrading PCI cards mainly graphic cards. Cards that invole graphics usallying tend to not be supported by the Apple hardware. I have a ATI radion 9200se and a ATI TV wonder VE and both are unsupported by Apple's hardware. Though this single choice hardware does help support aganst 3rd party items that may cause the system to crash it doesn't allow as much room for upgrades as hardware that is produced mainly for windows.

Windows XP: based on Windows XP SP2 Windows in my experiance hasn't been well. It has worked but my experiance isn't everybodies.

1. Viruses/Hackers/Spyware: When your dealing with Windows downfalls this will always turn up. Being the most popular operating system it is bound to happen. This was a problem with Apple back in the day when Windows was still starting up and Apple was the system of choice. These really hurt windows in proformance and how often you reinstall. Some anti-virus software doesn't help either. They just help slow your computer down when doing stuff like searching the web because they block the port and don't allow anything through without being checked first, and most the time this still doesn't stop some virus from being downloaded because it warns you after it has been installed.

2. Hardware: You think "woh!" why are you bring this up Windows has a lot of hardware developers. If you are then your right Windows does have a lot of hardware developers. You ask me Too Many and that is where this problem start. 3rd Party developers. Some may say I have never had a problem with the blue screen of death, but those are also the people that buy a computer and never change the hardware in it. When you add or remove hardware that is 3rd party (aka everything since technically their isn't a hardware microsoft PC developer) You may cause corruption without calling. This later down the road or instantly causes a blue screen of death. Though if you know what your doing you can avoid this. Knowing stuff like You can't mix these 2 hardware companies ETC...
This isn't the only reason for the blue screen of death.

3. Hidden files: Who, Why, How and What are these files. This files are hidden even from the user of the operating system and as I know are really hard to uncover. Even if you go into your browser and say show hidden files these will not appear.

Who: Who is microsoft trying to keep out? REALLY!

Why: Why has microsoft making these so hidden?

How: How are they suppost to help us?

What: What are these files?

To answer I really don't know. I just know they are their. I really don't know what they are either. You can find then yourself through a tutorial on Microsuck.com

You ask me I really think it is just random data. From programs and internet exporer that doesn't get the deleted and just piles up their. To tell the truth I couldn't say if it was accually made or a flaw in the OS.

4. Registry: The registry is a great thing. Not really! Setting 1 program to run the computer how it likes and allowing other programs without users permission to access the registry. WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU GUYS AT MICROSOFT THINKING. Anything programs, users, and viruses can edit this application and can distory or make the computer run different. This is just a target for viruses and a easy way to make a virus for the windows operating system no hacking involed. Just change a varible to piss someone off by making the computer run slower or allowing Internet to run pop ups is just asking for trouble.

5. End Now: When windows suffers a fatal flaw in a application it will usally tell you by saying "Not Responding". So what do you do when your computer turns to this. Well we use the classic "Ctrl" "Alt" and "Del". Then select the unfunctioning Applications. Then Click "End Now". When I think of the word Now I think of it as this instint to time wasted next to no time used. Oviously Microsoft has a different definition then me just like they usally do. "End Now" doesn't accually mean END NOW!. It is accually miss labelled and should be labeled as "End sometime today". As for the fact when you click it you will be waiting up to 5mins for your application to close and I have tested this on 5 computers all of them do it. The fastest being a pentium 4 at 2.2ghz slowest being a 475mhz amd k-6 2. When I go into make and have a application that doesn't respond I push "Command" "Option"(Alt) "Esc" up comes the little windows that asks me Force quit on everything, and this is on a 350mhz mac. It will end it in less them 10 seconds. Never had any other problems. Just click and ends. It even has an option to restart the Finder. So if their is an error their or my system is running slow it will fix it. Most of the time it does it automaticly.



Overall: The only thing I could find wrong with Mac OS X is a Visual Problem in the dock menu that makes using multible windows a little hard. Most of the problems with windows rely in its source. If these could just be fixed I really see windows being the perfect OS. Though this will not happen.

Opitionated Ratings:
Mac OS X-
Overall: 9/10 (28/30)
-Proformance: 10/10
-Looks: 10/10
-Userablity: 8/10

Windows XP-
Overall: 8/10 (26/30)
-Proformace: 7/10
-Looks: 10/10
-Userablity: 9/10

If you would like to add more or you own opitions on these feel free. If you are going to add more please use the format I have used and relate it to the operating system not just the Application and Use the same format I used so it is clear.
Saber
Ok just my comments about your points,
-OS X-
-1-
Quote:
The first problem with the dock menu is opening an application. I can click it and it will open, but if I like to open another I must go to the top and click file/new or file/open new window. Which can really get annoying when I want to login and open 3 internets because I want to look up 3 things.


Use a tabbed browser, allmost all are, other than IE, and you really shouldnt be using IE in OS X.

-2- Its true that apple systems tend not to be all that upgrade friendly, but after having a g4, and g5 I havent had that many problems, just look up what works before you buy(I know its a pain and I wish this would change also.)

-XP-
-1- ah, yes, well if theres no internet then you wouldnt have any problems ^^;(not a solution -_-)

-2- yes, microsoft has way to many people working on the same thing.. but as far as I know they dont make any hardware(other than keyboards and mice). It's true that some hardware clash and will cause problems but again, before peopel buy they should read(I know this doesnt work with newer stuff, but with most things you can read what other people have had problems wih and such, make the right choice off their problems(its no fun to be the latter)

-3- Hidden files are so people that dont know what they are doing(or sometimes those who do) have a hard time finding and then messing with them.
I remember back in the day you could move system files around and then it would make your computer not be able to find them(the location was stored in index file, and wouldnt update it when you moved them) thus a not working computer.

Most hidden files are someway linked to the system OS

-4- I also dont liek the registry, they could do some work on it and get it to be more useable, but I dont see that happening sometime soon.

-5- haha... yah.. Iv had this happen to me, then you try ending now more than a few times.. then those crash. I understand why this could happen, but as a user Its really not my choice to wiat... not to mention it normally makes your cpu go to 100%, causing everything else to slow down or also not respond.

I mostly agree with your ratings, now Im wondering what will happen with project (something, forgot the name). Apple had/has boot camp but they are investing into some software that will run windows and OS X nativly, and that makes me happy due to one of the only reasons why I use a PC is for games.

Saber
{name here}
==Mac OS==
1. It's just shortcuts to applications. It isn't about controlling one.
2. Isn't ATI supposed to be crap anyway?
==XP==
1. Windows is all about "virus limbo".

3. Microsoft abandoned those little "hidden files" at Windows 9x. XP from my experience doesn't have these hidden files anymore.

5. There is an easier way to do this. Kill its process in the processes tab rather than the application in the applications tab. This will draw the program to an immediate halt unless it is a virus scanner, in which you will have no permissions to kill it even in administrator mode.
gh0stface
{name here} wrote:

2. Isn't ATI supposed to be crap anyway?

You need to update your info on ATI information. ATI has gotten a lot better and from what I'm hearing, nVidia may have the best graphics card out right now, but their drivers are suffering.

Saber wrote:

-3- Hidden files are so people that dont know what they are doing(or sometimes those who do) have a hard time finding and then messing with them.
I remember back in the day you could move system files around and then it would make your computer not be able to find them(the location was stored in index file, and wouldnt update it when you moved them) thus a not working computer.

Most hidden files are someway linked to the system OS

Exactly. You have to remember that the majority of the computer users are pretty much novices come to computers. Most people only know how to open a word document, surf the internet, check their e-mail and play whatever games that comes with the installed OS.
Xeniczone
Thanks for all the replys Very Happy glad so far everyone has some agreement with it.

Quote:
-5- haha... yah.. Iv had this happen to me, then you try ending now more than a few times.. then those crash. I understand why this could happen, but as a user Its really not my choice to wiat... not to mention it normally makes your cpu go to 100%, causing everything else to slow down or also not respond.


I forgot to mention that it does that. Take the cpu and move it up to 100% so if you are running other apps they would crash and not responde. Though I'm not sure if this is fact for some faster computers. I have never used a real top end "windows" based machine.

Another think that would have smoked both of these systems is Linux.

The taskbar is profected. Using both Windows and Mac OS features. Like all the apps with big icons. Then next to is is the desktop select(i find this kind of useless) Then you have your running app list no grouping. then you have your background running programs then lastly the time. Even better is you can make it disappear and reappear as you like not automatic like on mac or windows so when your mouse goes near the bottom is pops up to piss you off Razz
{name here}
gh0stface wrote:
{name here} wrote:

2. Isn't ATI supposed to be crap anyway?

You need to update your info on ATI information. ATI has gotten a lot better and from what I'm hearing, nVidia may have the best graphics card out right now, but their drivers are suffering.
...

From what I've been hearing they're still crap.
Reyntjensw
i'm working with a mac (a powerbook g4) i notice a big difference in speed, if i compare it to an xp pro sp2, the programs just run faster and a mac.
a mac can last for 5 years or more.

thats all i want to say:p, if you have a question, just ask:p
Xeniczone
Yeh, I still have the powermac from 1998. G3 Powermac. very useful but still just about any computer can last a while and still be useful.

I really enjoy using Mac over windows but that is basly opition and "it seems" to run faster. have to run accual speed test.
jeffsolodky
1. Windows XP sucks.

2. OS X doesn't
kerouac
If you are running a Mac OSX less than 10.2 now is a good time to think about upgrading to at least Panther 10.3. There isnt really that much difference between Mac OSX 10.4 and Mac OSX 10.3.9 -- the interface is almost the same, maybe the tools are slightly different though.

As regards the dock, if you launch an app such as Apple Works and then click on the icon in the dock, you get a popup and the option to select "keep in dock" so next time you run the app you don't need to look for it.
Saber
Quote:
If you are running a Mac OSX less than 10.2 now is a good time to think about upgrading to at least Panther 10.3. There isnt really that much difference between Mac OSX 10.4 and Mac OSX 10.3.9 -- the interface is almost the same, maybe the tools are slightly different though.


You might also want to wait untill I think the 17th when they release the next version.
Mitcal
I have a new MacBook, I am a switcher from PC. I find Mac is just so much better. Everything just works like it should. Unlike Windsows, where everything works like it shouldn't...

If Apple manage to have all Windows apps work natives in Mac OS. Then I think it would totally take over Microsoft and their crappy OS's!
Xeniczone
I wouldn't call microsofts os "fully crap" it's design is nice. It's programmers aren't so well off.
Ed Kirkland
Which would be faster?
iMac Core Duo 2.0GHz or my Shuttle SN25P with AMD Athlon 64 3200+
Both with 1 gig ram and 250 gig HD’s @ 7200???


Note: I am a CorelDraw User, I have CS2 @ work, but I use Corel & Macromedia Suits mostly on a Slow P4 Dell PC. I also use a PowerPC with G3 to test our web sites.

The reason for speed test is I may want to come back to a Mac. After re-loading XP Pro a few times the Mac TV Commercials don’t help much when you are doing the feeding CD's to your PC....

My Mac Days were with a Mac IIsi & System 7. Those were the Days when a Mac was better than a PC! Now it's kinda gray here and there… But Macs with System 7 did have more up time than a PC with Windows 3.11 & 95. Now with OS X I don’t know if the same is still holds true?


\\x//
//0\\
Shuttle SN25P, nVidia nForce4 Chipset
AMD Athlon 64 3200+ (Winchester Core)
Corsair PC3200 2x512MB CL2.5 & mWave Aluminum Heat Spreaders
ATI All-In-Wonder X600 Pro 256mb PCI Express
NEC ND-3520A, 16x/16 DVD DDL & Sony 1.44 Floppy Drive
Seagate 250GB SATA, 8MB Cache, 7200rpm HDD
Zippy Large Size Slim Keyboard W/2 USB Ports
Logitech Marble Mouse Trackball
Reyntjensw
take a imac, its much faster now with the intel chip.
but you have to wait for the cs 3 if you want to use it on full speed

you can otherwise choose for a powerpc like a g5.


grtz
Ed Kirkland
I am havening trouble with finding iMac Video Editing Hardware…

I need the iMac Duo to edit Home Video from the VCR then burn a DVD or back to Tape.

I also want to watch Live TV on the iMac like I can with my Shuttle XPC & X600 Pro AIW.

(One little problem I have with AIW is Sound Quality, it is not as good as the original, but the Video is OK.) Question

The Hardware/Software does not need to be professional level…

I am still looking very hard @ switching back to a Mac...
Xeniczone
Apple has fully switched to Intel hardware. All their macintoshes now use intel hardware. I'm looking at buying the powermac. This is suppost to help with hardware support, but it really won't do much for the driver thing.

I'm having the same problem when I had a PC I had a ATI Radion 9200se and a ATI TV wonder VE Both did work in my macintosh Sad
{name here}
Xeniczone wrote:
Apple has fully switched to Intel hardware. All their macintoshes now use intel hardware. I'm looking at buying the powermac. This is suppost to help with hardware support, but it really won't do much for the driver thing.

I'm having the same problem when I had a PC I had a ATI Radion 9200se and a ATI TV wonder VE Both did work in my macintosh Sad

Why don't you wait for the Mac Pro? That way you can double the power capabilities.
Zage
I personally perfer windows xp over mac os x.

Windows XP is easier to use. Supports a lot more games than Mac OS X. Infact OS X supports very little. If you have Windows XP Pro you can use ISS to make an ASP server (good for webmasters)

Windows XP is more customizable. You can change the apperance in several ways. OS X there are only minor apperance changes like only grafite and normal.

Windows XP has a wider selection of software.

Microsoft site >> Apple site

Windows XP overall pwns
Reyntjensw
its actually very simpel
mac=> no virusses, no spam no stupid .exe files
windows=> is a virus

xp hasnt got a wider selection of software! of games, ok but windows isnt heaven, no its kinda hell, try osx before you say that its bad!
{name here}
Reyntjensw wrote:
its actually very simpel
mac=> no virusses, no spam no stupid .exe files
windows=> is a virus

xp hasnt got a wider selection of software! of games, ok but windows isnt heaven, no its kinda hell, try osx before you say that its bad!

It does have a wider selection. You have the several applications that Microsoft hasn't ported to OS X, FreeBASIC(only supporting Linux and Windows and 32-bit DOS), Bloodshed Software products, Borland Products, Stardock Products, and many more software companies such as IBM(though their software line isn't exactly the best).
ammonkc
I converted from XP to Mac OSX a few years ago and I will never go back. I just got too fedup with all the problems that come with Windows. Apple makes fun of microsoft in its ads and things like that, but it all totally true. XP was such a headache to just keep it running decently. That really should be microsoft's job. so much effort is required on the user's part to protect and maintain a windows machine, that it cuts into productivity. A pc should just do its job and run smooth consistently. All the user should worry about is the work that he needs to get done.

The fundamental unstableness of xp causes it to perform so slow. even with slower hardware mac osx still feels faster and smoother.
ammonkc
Zage wrote:
Windows XP is easier to use. Supports a lot more games than Mac OS X. Infact OS X supports very little. If you have Windows XP Pro you can use ISS to make an ASP server (good for webmasters)

IIS has got to be the worst server technology out there. I don't know why anyone would choose to run IIS over apache. In my data center we have about 50 Linux server and 1 IIS server. We only have the IIS server because there is one little site that is in asp and haven't gotten around to rewriting it in php yet. This IIS server is constantly getting hacked.
OSX and OSX server both ship with Apache installed and configured.
Dustylunchbox
[quote="Xeniczone"]Here I want to discuss FACTUAL problems with both Windows XP and Mac OS X.

1. Dock menu: The dock menu is a great thing in my opition but this isn't about opitions. The problem with that dock menu as I see are 2.

The first problem with the dock menu is opening an application. I can click it and it will open, but if I like to open another I must go to the top and click file/new or file/open new window. Which can really get annoying when I want to login and open 3 internets because I want to look up 3 things.

The second problem is when I have more then 1 windows open at a time. I can't scroll through that 3 seperate windows. Using Command+tab or the dock menu, because it groups it as one application. Though I can minimize the windows and surf through all the windows I have open it just doesn't work with all the windows maximized or such.

1st :

ok for open more than one window just push apple+N or in web browsers apple+tab both very easy to use because i also when search the web am looking at like 10 different things at once so problem one isnt a problem at all.

2nd for scrolling or looking through several windows it is again easyier to use tabs but if u want seperate windows use expose' its very easy to use possibly one of my favourite things about mac so much easyier than going to the toolbar like in pc
Xeniczone
Apple tab does the same thing as the dock it only lets you change apps not different windows so if I have 10 windows open and itune if I push apple (command) tab it only lets you select itunes or firefox. It doesn't let me select each page.

Command n only lets you create new windows. I guess this could help but still... It doesn't solve the issue with the dock because though their are ways around it, it still doesn't solve the dock issue. I know what your getting at though.
VidE
As primarily a pc user I've had my problems with xp but overall like it. I edit video and got, a few years ago, s slow G4 tower with FCP. I liked the mac and FCP but not so much that I felt like it made my windows system look bad.

We get power surges thanks to power lines running in tree branches. After a few years of hits with the pc's, including one loaded with a Matrox RT2000 video editing card the pc's ran fine. But after the first one that the mac went through, it fried something in the computer that caused the 1394 port to later on fry a camcorder and a professional dv deck. It took some time to figure it out, originally it hadn't occured to me that it was a computer issue at all. Searching on the internet to find the cause, I stumbled across a number of people, some in teaching facilities, that had macs. (early G4's I believe), fry their dv gear. Apple, of course, denied this..

I realize that's not an OS issue, though with macs you can't seperate the OS from the hardware any too much. I still like macs, still like pc's. They have their plusses and minuses. As to the people that say pc's suck, usually mac owners, I say get a grip...
wetumka_ok
All I Can Say iMac G3 333 Bondi Blue, 30GB Harddrive, 256mb Ram
OS X 10.3.9 Panther, I can run Firefox, Adobe CS, Macromedia Suite, iTunes.
This PC was Manufactured in 1999, try running Windows XP and all the above suites in a Windows machine Manufactured in 1999!

if anyone needs a good imac email me wetumka_ok@yahoo.com
I purchased 36 through school auctions, and I have replacement Parts and Upgrades! also a quite a few older systems and parts available, I have Allinone g3's (405)452-3967
Bernard
I used Mac at home since a long time and for home I look to buy a Mac again (please check to topic about Intel Mac to see if you can help me).

Here my own comparison :
1 - System Crash
Since Windows 2000 the progress in system crash for Windows OS is just amazing, it's not true anymore that Mac System crash less.

Windows XP decrease a little bit this but very few system crash, I got roughly as much OS Crash with both Systems, XP and OSX 10.3 upgrade to OSX 10.5 was followed relatively fast by big Hard disk problems so I can't say for this version.

Result : Roughly equal.

2 - Application Crash
For application crash, I get a bit more in XP but still got some in OSX.

Result : Minor adventadge for OSX but in XP it's the price to pay for diversity.

3 - Setup problems and plug&play
For setup problems and plug&play, both systems are strong but XP extreme details plus diversity plus an interface not always that easy so XP is a bit less good in this area. But objectively the task isn't the same because of much more hardware and software in XP.

Result : Minor adventadge for OSX but in XP it's the price to pay for diversity.

4 - Ease of use
For ease of use, both have positive and negative and for both some utilities help you tune it to your tastes. Where OSX is strong is how Apple is good to make thing clear and simple, quite amazing for a Unix system.

Result : Adventadge for OSX BUT any user already used to XP and who never used OSX for a REAL usage will disagree.

5 - Unix System
Unix System, if you are a tech guy in no way XP can be compared to any Unix System, there it's more Linux vs OSX. But then it's really for tech guy because Linux is far to be a match to OSX for general ease of use.

Result : Equal but I'm not the best guy to judge that.

6 - Games
No comparison, in general many blockbuster of the best quality has been ported to Max and now OSX but well not all and if you are a real gamer OSX won't fit your need.

For non gamer or casual gamer, there's stuff to fit the need, not sure for present and future. It's even an adventadge to be a little out of the hype and not be on the pression to play the last game out.

Result : Strong adventadge for XP, for gamers.

7 - Applications
Again no comparison except that very few people really use the extreme adventadge for XP in this area. You have all the base at great quality level for Mac and OSX even improved this for free stuff.

But in very specialized domains you'll find your stuff in XP and not OSX.

Result : For most users it's a minor adventadge in practice. For few with special needs, strong adventadge to XP.

8 - Hardware
It's not fully system related but need to be look at. In many area there's a strong support to Mac, mouses, printers, Hard Drive, Scanners, and so on. The much higher diversity available in XP will rarely be very usefull.

There's one area where Hardware support for XP is much better and significant, games, again.

And finally video card, good support anyway for OSX but delayed, again not very important but for gamers.

Result : Adventadge for XP and strong for gamers.

9 - Conclusion
For hardcore gamers Mac+OSX aren't a match, no debate possible.

For general usage OXS and Mac continue to collect a minor series of adventadge in term of ease of use. This is reinforced by Mac users that are used to be more demanding in this area. Ease of use can definitely be a reason to still choose OSX. Price to pay for this choice will be :
- To be out of the game hype
- Start price a bit higher but in long run you'll keep it longuer more easily so overall price probably the same. But people have hard time to think on a long run.
- A last special price to pay is for very special needs usually professional not satisfied as it could on XP.

For tech guys, I'm not sure.
ammonkc
I'd say thats a pretty good break down. For me, security and stability are priceless. Thats why I'm willing to pay for a mac. The headaches that came with an XP system just were not worth it. I had to spend more time fixing it then anything. On pc hardware I would much prefer Linux over windows. but I still take OSX because I'm most productive on it.
Bernard
Yes similar for me, I don't care that much for games and found better be out of hype. I am a dam lazy user who just need his base need satisfied well and no problems, despite all XP user think OSX has an edge here.

One example of nasty thing I got on XP: I had crypted some files/folder then I upgrade to SP2 and since then I never succedd access them anymore. It's sort of joke that won't happen on OSX.

That said if nobody help collect information about Intel Mac adventadges/disaventadges I'll perhaps not switch back to Mac until a long time (I am using my work computer as home computer).
Xeniczone
You mentioned plug&play:

For some reason on windows xp you plug it in. Wait 10 mins. While this time it is showing at the bottom a bunch of BS I really don't care about seeing. Then it will make that annoying sound. Before you can use the device.

Mac OS X: you plug the device in give it a sec and it works. With no annoying yet useless info or sound. It really defines Plug&Play.


Gamers:

Gamers advantage is not really a issue anymore. Special thanks to a company called Transgaming.com They are the developers of the Linux version and now with a Intel x68 Macintosh you can run just about any game. It has proven to work very well on Linux with no noticable proformace flaws. This allows you to play games like Battlefeild 2 and Need For Speed for Mac. Though I would recommend for games like Halo or Doom 3 just to buy the mac version no matter how good an emulation is it still can't compare to the native platform.

Applications:

Problem is people will argue about XP having more applications but you also have to think.

How much of this is junk made by people just because they can?

How much of this is Anti-Virus Software?

How much of this is only avlible because it was ported from a Mac or Linux which was already avalible for Freeware for these native systems?

Problem and Advantage with XP is all the Developers support makes it easy for even the beginning programmer to produce for Windows with little or no Money. With that comes more developers and more junk software.

Hardware: USB and other devices like you said will work fine even game controllors. Though most of the Game controllers drivers are third party such as the Xbox 360 game controller drivers.

The area that become a issue is Video cards and Capture cards have very small support I have contacted 2 companies in the last week because my macintosh is a little dated and needs a new CPU and Gfx cards. I got we don't offer support of Macintosh, and Our cards will not run in your system. So... I'm having problems. First I bought a PCI card for it ATI radion 9200se that didn't work then I had a ATI TV Wonder capture card so I though I would pop it in and see what the hell. No luck. Na Da. That is 4 different grx/capture cards and none of them work. That is a pritty bad percent.

Gamers: Stick to high quality hardware that supports macs. Support Transgaming when they release their Mac version and Send angery Emails to stupid hardware developers that don't make Mac support. (No Treats of course) (except the american past time of sueing) (only if you can make a case)
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