Hello everyone.
While searching the internet and reading the Bible i have come across some questions, which i hope you Christians can answer:
1) God killed Jesus in the crucifications when He could have easily used His All-Powerfulness to forgive sins, and did not answer his prayers despite him praying all night long.
Matthew 26:39, Mark 14:36, and Luke 22:42.
Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
Matthew 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Why did God not answer Jesus' prayers not to die?
2) When Abraham was told by God to sacrifice his son, his son did not object or question him, if Jesus was sent to be sacrificed for our sins, why would he question God?
"Eloih, Eloih, why have you forsaken me?"
Could this not come from someone other than Jesus? Even a Non Prophet would smile at agony as he knew that his death would win him the title of martyr.
3) Why did Jesus rise up on the wrong day?
Jesus was asked for a miracle. Instead of saying "look at that dead man who rose", he said something like "three days and three nights i will be like Jonus". Except for this: he rose in the morning. That means he rose a night earlier. How could this happen?
4) How can Jesus be god, if he was given all authority and power?
-Luke 7:8
For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and that one, 'Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it."
The soldier is saying he is like Jesus.
-Matthew 28:18
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Given to him? Jesus cannot be god. God is not given anything.
So before Jesus was given authority, what was he? If Jesus is co equal with the Father then who gave the Father this authority? Plus why would Jesus need the Father to give him the authority? Couldn't the godly nature of Jesus given it to his man nature?
5) Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
This verse has always been brought up to prove that Jesus himself is not God since he is not all-knowing. Christians have countered this argument by claiming that Jesus as man did not know the hour, but in his divine state he did know the hour.
However so, what about the Holy Spirit? Jesus claims that no one but the Father knows the last hour, this means the Holy Spirit does not know the last hour neither! Hence the Holy Spirit is not God because it is not all-knowing. The Holy Spirit was not a God-man like Jesus, the Holy Spirit never limited himself like Jesus, so what possible explanation could the Christian give? Why isnt the Holy Spirit all-knowing? Why didnt Jesus say the only one who knows the last hour is the Holy Spirit and the Father only?
Note what Jesus said:
Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only
Jesus says that ONLY THE FATHER knows, this means that not even the divine Jesus knows! If you say that ONLY this person knows something, then it excludes everyone else. So hence the fact that Jesus said ONLY my Father means that even the divine Jesus doesnt know the last hour, if the divine Jesus knows the last hour then Jesus was wrong when he said that ONLY the Father knows.
6) What was the point of the crucification? Jesus never wiped the sins off mankind because the women even nowadays suffer pains during labor and the man eats the fruits of his labor/ toil. It was an important indication for the redemption of the sins, that at least the Christian women should not suffer pain during labor and Christian men should not have to work hard to earn their bread.
The pains and the sufferings are still there. So the punishment of the original sin of Adam and Eve is still very much there.
Thanks.
For ur first point......., u obviously or so it sounds NOT read the bible but merely selected confusing bits of it for argument, but remmember the Penilty for sin is Death by the law of God, Jesus vollenteerd to die insted of us sinners, so we might be forgiven.
for the second, u must remmber Jesus altho the Son of God in human form is still a MAN, possably fear made him question God, but he still having all the power of God u speak of, choose to give it all up and Die anyway.
for the third, wrong day........, i dont remmber anything about 3 days AND 3 NIGHTS, i notice u dident quote the scripture to base that fact on.
fourth, why not? Having power isent the same as showing off power.
now remember Jesus is a human, he wasent borning knowing he was God, because he is not God, he is the Son of God... therefore God gave him all power and authority,
number 5...., interesting idea i havent encounted nefore...., supposedly Jesus will return to earth in the end....so im assuimng he will know the time...., but really dose it matter if jesus knows or not?
6th..., ah now Forgivness is NOT the same as removing sin from the world..., its there and God wont remove it untill the end.... by removing sin for the world it would cross God "freewill" policy lol, as for anly christians, why should we get special treatment, we are still as able to sin as anyone else..., satan is still battling God on earth and elsewhere....., so sin or evil is still very much here.
as i sed earlyer, "The wages of Sin is Death", Jesus stepped in and died insted of us, for the entire world...., Dieing and Going to hell for the time he was dead...., 
Wow. That's a really long post with extremely tough questions. Heh. But it's great you're asking questions. 
I don't know everything, but I'll try to answer some as best as I can.
1) Why did God not answer Jesus' prayer not to die?
Sometimes when we pray, we don't get the desired result. But that does not mean God is not listening or God does not answer our prayers. Sometimes it just means "no". Christians live by faith that whatever God allows to happen is for the better. And whatever God disallows is for the better as well. I always tell God, "Let Thy Will be done." Christians are placed here to do God's Will. We're His instruments on earth. We're supposed to bring God to other people by being Christ-like ourselves.
So, when God allowed Jesus to die (not like He enjoyed seeing His only Son die), he did it because it had to happen. God had to show something. If Jesus did not die, I'm not sure if His teachings would live till now. Many people know Jesus by the fact that He was the Son of God who was crucified. People remember things that way.
2) Abraham has been known as the man of great faith because of this incident. And all Christians are called to be like him - to put all our trust in God that all things are possible with Him around and that He would make everything beautiful. Everyone is capable of such faith, even people (non-prophets) today.
3) I don't know how to answer this. :X
4/5) Jesus is the Son of God and He co-exists with God even today. All three persons in the Holy Trinity are equal, but they have different tasks at hand. Jesus is our link to God the Father, since he became man and lived amongst us. The Holy Spirit is our link to be like Jesus, Christ-like. That's how I see it.
6) Jesus died to deliver us from sin, so that we could enter heaven and enjoy eternal life with God. But God did not say after Jesus died, suffering would stop. He simply promised eternal life, not end of suffering. God allows sufferings, not because He is a sadist, but because sufferings are essential. Imagine life a bed of roses. Then who needs faith? No one. Only through suffering, do we grow and mature. Only through suffering, do we learn from our mistakes. Only through suffering, do we finally understand what happiness is.
God created each and every one of us in His own image. In times of sufferings, if we can still see God in our neighbours, we have attained that level of spiritual maturity.
-- All these are just my own opinions. I may be wrong. But I hope this helps you at least a little. [quote=We r the SYC]
For ur first point......., u obviously or so it sounds NOT read the bible but merely selected confusing bits of it for argument, but remmember the Penilty for sin is Death by the law of God, Jesus vollenteerd to die insted of us sinners, so we might be forgiven.
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Yes the penalty for sin is death. But God invented something called forgiveness where he gives you another chance. What is the point of Jesus? Especially if people will still go to hell?
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for the second, u must remmber Jesus altho the Son of God in human form is still a MAN, possably fear made him question God, but he still having all the power of God u speak of, choose to give it all up and Die anyway.
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Abraham's son was human too. Pure human. He and Abraham went to sacrifice, without hesitation. How come Jesus with being partly/wholly divine, be scared?
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for the third, wrong day........, i dont remmber anything about 3 days AND 3 NIGHTS, i notice u dident quote the scripture to base that fact on.
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It is in the Bible:
Matthew 12:38 Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, "Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you."
39He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Notice it says "none" shall be given "EXCEPT" the sign of Jonah. So if this fails, then Jesus could never convince the Jews with his one sign.
"so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights"
So Jesus would stay dead for three days and three nights? Nope, he rose a night early.
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fourth, why not? Having power isent the same as showing off power.
now remember Jesus is a human, he wasent borning knowing he was God, because he is not God, he is the Son of God... therefore God gave him all power and authority,
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But Christians say Jesus is god? How can god give himself power?
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number 5...., interesting idea i havent encounted nefore...., supposedly Jesus will return to earth in the end....so im assuimng he will know the time...., but really dose it matter if jesus knows or not?
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No it does not matter if Jesus knows. It matters if the holy spirit knows. Obviously from the verse he does not, and thus the trinity is not co-equal.
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6th..., ah now Forgivness is NOT the same as removing sin from the world..., its there and God wont remove it untill the end.... by removing sin for the world it would cross God "freewill" policy lol, as for anly christians, why should we get special treatment, we are still as able to sin as anyone else..., satan is still battling God on earth and elsewhere....., so sin or evil is still very much here.as i sed earlyer, "The wages of Sin is Death", Jesus stepped in and died insted of us, for the entire world...., Dieing and Going to hell for the time he was dead....
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I do not agree. Jesus died for our sins, Christians say. All our sins were removed. So why are the punishments for the sins there? The original sin has been removed. Why are the symptons for it still there? When you remove most illnesses you do not stay ill.
You did not answer my questions... | Quote: |
wow. That's a really long post with extremely tough questions. Heh. But it's great you're asking questions. Smile
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Thanks. Cool name. I like ranciel.
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I don't know everything, but I'll try to answer some as best as I can.
1) Why did God not answer Jesus' prayer not to die?
Sometimes when we pray, we don't get the desired result. But that does not mean God is not listening or God does not answer our prayers. Sometimes it just means "no". Christians live by faith that whatever God allows to happen is for the better. And whatever God disallows is for the better as well. I always tell God, "Let Thy Will be done." Christians are placed here to do God's Will. We're His instruments on earth. We're supposed to bring God to other people by being Christ-like ourselves.
So, when God allowed Jesus to die (not like He enjoyed seeing His only Son die), he did it because it had to happen. God had to show something. If Jesus did not die, I'm not sure if His teachings would live till now. Many people know Jesus by the fact that He was the Son of God who was crucified. People remember things that way.
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So the answer is no? Well i suppose that can happen. But what about these verses?
Matthew 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:03 pm Post subject: questions for Christians
Hello everyone.
While searching the internet and reading the Bible i have come across some questions, which i hope you Christians can answer:
1) God killed Jesus in the crucifications when He could have easily used His All-Powerfulness to forgive sins, and did not answer his prayers despite him praying all night long.
Matthew 26:39, Mark 14:36, and Luke 22:42.
Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
Matthew 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
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2) Abraham has been known as the man of great faith because of this incident. And all Christians are called to be like him - to put all our trust in God that all things are possible with Him around and that He would make everything beautiful. Everyone is capable of such faith, even people (non-prophets) today.
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I do not understand how a man could be better than Jesus who is supposed to be god as well as man put together.
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3) I don't know how to answer this. :X
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That's okay.
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4/5) Jesus is the Son of God and He co-exists with God even today. All three persons in the Holy Trinity are equal, but they have different tasks at hand. Jesus is our link to God the Father, since he became man and lived amongst us. The Holy Spirit is our link to be like Jesus, Christ-like. That's how I see it.
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Hmmm i understand your explanation for four, but for five, how can the trinity be equal if the holy spirit does not know the Last Hour? Surely their knowledge is equal?
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6) Jesus died to deliver us from sin, so that we could enter heaven and enjoy eternal life with God. But God did not say after Jesus died, suffering would stop. He simply promised eternal life, not end of suffering. God allows sufferings, not because He is a sadist, but because sufferings are essential. Imagine life a bed of roses. Then who needs faith? No one. Only through suffering, do we grow and mature. Only through suffering, do we learn from our mistakes. Only through suffering, do we finally understand what happiness is.
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But i thought the reason why the suffering was there was for the original sin, which was abolished with Jesus. So surely the suffering should disappear because the cause of the illness has gone? But i suppose suffering is a good way to mature. It sort of increases your faith in God by making you more desperate for Him, doesn't it?
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God created each and every one of us in His own image. In times of sufferings, if we can still see God in our neighbours, we have attained that level of spiritual maturity.
-- All these are just my own opinions. I may be wrong. But I hope this helps you at least a little.
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It helps a bit thanks.OK, Here are my thoughts on these questions..
1) Why did God not answer Jesus' prayer not to die?
Jesus' main purpose in coming to earth was to come as a perfect sacrifice for our sins. This ties back to the old testament- people in the old testament offered animal sacrifices for their sins; the animals had to be perfect and without blemish.
In the same way, Jesus came as the ultimate sacrifice, lived a perfect, sinless life and was killed as atonement for our sins.
Back to the answering prayer issue, Jesus's prayer was not that he wouldn't be crucified, it was that he wouldn't be crucified IF it was God's will.
Matthew 26:39
39Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will." (The other 2 verses are similar)
And it obviously wasn't God's for Jesus not to die will since he did-- God loves people and wanted to give his son so that we can be forgiven. In conclusion, God did answer his prayer by carrying out His plan for Jesus to be crucified for our sins.
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2) When Abraham was told by God to sacrifice his son, his son did not object or question him, if Jesus was sent to be sacrificed for our sins, why would he question God?
"Eloih, Eloih, why have you forsaken me?"
Could this not come from someone other than Jesus? Even a Non Prophet would smile at agony as he knew that his death would win him the title of martyr. |
I don't really understand the second part of your question, but I will address the first part..
Abraham was definitely a great man of faith, but God was with him. When Jesus was on the cross he had to bear the the punishment for sin, which is separation from God. So when he was up on the cross dying he was separated from God, God had abandoned him so that he would not have to abondon us because of our sin. Because of this and the fact that Jesus was human, is why he questioned God.Question 3 I think has been well addressed already by We r the SYC
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4) How can Jesus be god, if he was given all authority and power?
-Luke 7:8
For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and that one, 'Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it."
The soldier is saying he is like Jesus. |
The centurion is just making a statement of faith.. I believe you can control demons and sickness, etc like I can control my soldiers and servants. I don't see what this has to do with the question..
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-Matthew 28:18
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Given to him? Jesus cannot be god. God is not given anything.
So before Jesus was given authority, what was he? If Jesus is co equal with the Father then who gave the Father this authority? Plus why would Jesus need the Father to give him the authority? Couldn't the godly nature of Jesus given it to his man nature? |
This is related to the issue of the trinity which I'm not going to attempt to debate.. I think the verse is referring to God giving Jesus authority while he's on earth, or it could be Jesus' godly nature giving him the authority. The verse doesn't explicitly say (that I see) who or what gave him the authority. | Quote: |
5) Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
This verse has always been brought up to prove that Jesus himself is not God since he is not all-knowing. Christians have countered this argument by claiming that Jesus as man did not know the hour, but in his divine state he did know the hour.
However so, what about the Holy Spirit? Jesus claims that no one but the Father knows the last hour, this means the Holy Spirit does not know the last hour neither! Hence the Holy Spirit is not God because it is not all-knowing. The Holy Spirit was not a God-man like Jesus, the Holy Spirit never limited himself like Jesus, so what possible explanation could the Christian give? Why isnt the Holy Spirit all-knowing? Why didnt Jesus say the only one who knows the last hour is the Holy Spirit and the Father only?
Note what Jesus said:
Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only
Jesus says that ONLY THE FATHER knows, this means that not even the divine Jesus knows! If you say that ONLY this person knows something, then it excludes everyone else. So hence the fact that Jesus said ONLY my Father means that even the divine Jesus doesnt know the last hour, if the divine Jesus knows the last hour then Jesus was wrong when he said that ONLY the Father knows.
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I think this question is missing the point of the verse, but anyway- my Bible has a footnote that some manuscripts do not include the "not the son" part. Without that you could interpret Father to be all three if you wanted.. However, I don't think it matters for the overall meaning of the verses. There are many other verses stating the divinity of father, son and holy spirit (which I will find if you want ) to clarify the point.
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6) What was the point of the crucification? Jesus never wiped the sins off mankind because the women even nowadays suffer pains during labor and the man eats the fruits of his labor/ toil. It was an important indication for the redemption of the sins, that at least the Christian women should not suffer pain during labor and Christian men should not have to work hard to earn their bread.
The pains and the sufferings are still there. So the punishment of the original sin of Adam and Eve is still very much there.
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The point of the crucifixtion was not to wipe out all sin but to bear the punishment for the sin. God new that would sin and he didn't want us to bear the ultimate punishment (death/separation from God) so he sent Jesus. We still sin so the consequences are still there- which creates a lot of the suffering in the world. As for childbearing and labor/toil, I think those were meant as permenent things.. and very easy compared with what God could have done.quite simply, God is Holy and that means God HAS to punish sin, because God is HOLY, He HATES sin.
God would not be right to JUST forgive everyone, ---
it is like if someone hurt you and they don't even say sorry
do you just forgive them? sure you could, but God's standard is perfection and none of us can live life perfectly.
so God has to punish us for our purposefully sinning against Him and hurting Him and not meeting His standard of perfection.
hope that helps.
I am Atheist and proud of it. Why do you people waste yere time going to church, praying and following a religion. In my if god(over hyped David Blaine) was real he wouldn'y be leaving 100s of innocent people in 3rd world countries be dying everyday and stop all this terrorism.
Could someone please tell me why you believe something that was written thousands of years ago by somebody. If its all real why don't people rise from the dead now adays and do impossible stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???
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I am Atheist and proud of it. Why do you people waste yere time going to church, praying and following a religion. In my if god(over hyped David Blaine) was real he wouldn'y be leaving 100s of innocent people in 3rd world countries be dying everyday and stop all this terrorism.
Could someone please tell me why you believe something that was written thousands of years ago by somebody. If its all real why don't people rise from the dead now adays and do impossible stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??? |
Because it's real. It was written by God. And they do impossible stuff - you think my 16 year old friend who was diagnosed with cancer healed completely on his own - in half of the projected time? Nope. That's God working. Even though you refuse to believe, he works in you as well.
God exists whether you believe in Him or not.
You can look at fire, and believe with your whole heart that it is cold... but in the end, it's still hot.
1) Jesus died because He was TOTALLY submitted to God's will. When you submit yourself to God's will, you do as your told, and as a Son, it's your responsibility to obey your Father. And you know what? Jesus didn't pray to not die. Jesus prayed that this was the right thing to do. Jesus prayed that being crucified was part of the plan.
And we don't know why God didn't use his all-powerfulness to relieve sin. Perhaps it's because he wanted someone (Jesus) to show the proper way to follow him, and because he wanted the people who refused to believe in him be punished.
I may answer the others later, but the answers are varying because of personal interpretation of the Bible. Therefore, I can't really say what is right and not.You have some wonderful questions and I hope I can give you some answers that make sense.
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| 1) God killed Jesus in the crucifications when He could have easily used His All-Powerfulness to forgive sins, and did not answer his prayers despite him praying all night long. |
God did not kill Jesus, Jesus gave himself.
John 10
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Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again
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No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
Matthew 26:39
And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
Mark 14:36
And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
Luke 22:42
Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
While Jesus did ask if this could be stopped, he always stated not my will, but yours (talking about God's will). And God did answer his prayer, God said no, this cup could not be taken from him.
I realize it's easy to say that God doesn't answer our prayers when nothing happens when we pray, but sometimes God says wait or no and we don't understand.
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2) When Abraham was told by God to sacrifice his son, his son did not object or question him, if Jesus was sent to be sacrificed for our sins, why would he question God?
"Eloih, Eloih, why have you forsaken me?"
Could this not come from someone other than Jesus? Even a Non Prophet would smile at agony as he knew that his death would win him the title of martyr. |
Jesus never really questioned God, all he did was ask that he not be crucified if it was God's will. It is our nature to not want to die, Jesus was God and man. The man part didn't want to die either. Knowing that you would have to go through what he did, would you have done it without at least asking that it not happen if it didn't need to.
Plus you have to look at the fact that God cannot look at sin. When Jesus was dying, he had taken our sin on him so God could not look at him.
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3) Why did Jesus rise up on the wrong day?
Jesus was asked for a miracle. Instead of saying "look at that dead man who rose", he said something like "three days and three nights i will be like Jonus". Except for this: he rose in the morning. That means he rose a night earlier. How could this happen? |
The verse you are referring to is:
Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Mark 15:25
And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.
The third hour was 9am. Their day started at 6:00 in the morning.
Going by this, he did stay three days and three nights.
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| 4) How can Jesus be god, if he was given all authority and power? |
As a man, Jesus had to be given all authority and power. You are also referring to a time after the crusifiction. Jesus was no longer part man, that part had been cricified. Man cannot have authority and power of that king.
The part about the centurian was answered by kcw1304, so I won't go into that.
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| 5) Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. |
As to why Jesus didn't know at that time when, I honestly can say. My opinion is that He didn't need to know at that time.
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6) What was the point of the crucification? Jesus never wiped the sins off mankind because the women even nowadays suffer pains during labor and the man eats the fruits of his labor/ toil. It was an important indication for the redemption of the sins, that at least the Christian women should not suffer pain during labor and Christian men should not have to work hard to earn their bread.
The pains and the sufferings are still there. So the punishment of the original sin of Adam and Eve is still very much there. |
Before Jesus was crucified, the only way to have sin rolled forward was by the blood of cows and goats. God knew that wasn't good enough, plus it didn't allow any Gentiles the ability to know God. This was for the Jews only. Since Jesus gave his life for us as our sacrifice, he paved the way for Jew and Gentile to know him. It has nothing to do with our sins never being punished, but by the fact that through the blood of Jesus, our sins are forgiven if we pray for forgiveness. Man is born into sin, so of course the punishment for sin is still there. Each man or woman has to go to Jesus to ask for forgiveness, it's not given just because of. It has to asked for.
As far as the pain and suffering during child birth, it's worth it. I have two children and the pleasure I receive with my children is worth any amount of pain that comes with it. Also, I don't see where that will ever change. I don't care what you do, trying to squeeze something the size of a watermelon out of a hole the size of a grape will hurt. | Quote: |
kcw1304 said: OK, Here are my thoughts on these questions..
1) Why did God not answer Jesus' prayer not to die?
Jesus' main purpose in coming to earth was to come as a perfect sacrifice for our sins. This ties back to the old testament- people in the old testament offered animal sacrifices for their sins; the animals had to be perfect and without blemish.
In the same way, Jesus came as the ultimate sacrifice, lived a perfect, sinless life and was killed as atonement for our sins.
Back to the answering prayer issue, Jesus's prayer was not that he wouldn't be crucified, it was that he wouldn't be crucified IF it was God's will.
Matthew 26:39
39Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will." (The other 2 verses are similar)
And it obviously wasn't God's for Jesus not to die will since he did-- God loves people and wanted to give his son so that we can be forgiven. In conclusion, God did answer his prayer by carrying out His plan for Jesus to be crucified for our sins.
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But why did God let Jesus be tortured? If He is all powerful surely He would save the world by clicking His fingers?
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I don't really understand the second part of your question, but I will address the first part..
Abraham was definitely a great man of faith, but God was with him. When Jesus was on the cross he had to bear the the punishment for sin, which is separation from God. So when he was up on the cross dying he was separated from God, God had abandoned him so that he would not have to abondon us because of our sin. Because of this and the fact that Jesus was human, is why he questioned God.
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What? But i thought the punishment was for the original was labour, man works for fruits and so on. Where did you get this idea of seperation from God? Where is it in the Bible? Also if Jesus took the sins, doesn't that mean he died with sins? Also the question meant that the guy who was crucified could not have been Jesus, because Abraham a pure human was ready to sacrifice his son, but Jesus pure human and pure god as Christians say, said "why have you forsaken me?"
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Question 3 I think has been well addressed already by We r the SYC
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No it has not. See my response.
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The centurion is just making a statement of faith.. I believe you can control demons and sickness, etc like I can control my soldiers and servants. I don't see what this has to do with the question..
This is related to the issue of the trinity which I'm not going to attempt to debate.. I think the verse is referring to God giving Jesus authority while he's on earth, or it could be Jesus' godly nature giving him the authority. The verse doesn't explicitly say (that I see) who or what gave him the authority.
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Hmmm...but Jesus' godly nature (the Christians say) is a part of Jesus. So something that gave him authority is not allowed to be Jesus. This means God must have given him authority. But this means that God gave authority to the divine part of Jesus (which i do not believe in).
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I think this question is missing the point of the verse, but anyway- my Bible has a footnote that some manuscripts do not include the "not the son" part. Without that you could interpret Father to be all three if you wanted.. However, I don't think it matters for the overall meaning of the verses. There are many other verses stating the divinity of father, son and holy spirit (which I will find if you want Smile ) to clarify the point.
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But that does not affect it. Only the father knows. So the son and spirit do not know. How can it mean the father son spirit if it says ONLY the father? This means they are not coequal.
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The point of the crucifixtion was not to wipe out all sin but to bear the punishment for the sin. God new that would sin and he didn't want us to bear the ultimate punishment (death/separation from God) so he sent Jesus. We still sin so the consequences are still there- which creates a lot of the suffering in the world. As for childbearing and labor/toil, I think those were meant as permenent things.. and very easy compared with what God could have done.
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Oh okay thanks. | Quote: |
quite simply, God is Holy and that means God HAS to punish sin, because God is HOLY, He HATES sin.
God would not be right to JUST forgive everyone, ---
it is like if someone hurt you and they don't even say sorry
do you just forgive them? sure you could, but God's standard is perfection and none of us can live life perfectly.
so God has to punish us for our purposefully sinning against Him and hurting Him and not meeting His standard of perfection.
hope that helps.
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But some of us repent. So surely the repenters should be forgiven with no punishment? | Quote: |
I am Atheist and proud of it. Why do you people waste yere time going to church, praying and following a religion. In my if god(over hyped David Blaine) was real he wouldn'y be leaving 100s of innocent people in 3rd world countries be dying everyday and stop all this terrorism.
Could someone please tell me why you believe something that was written thousands of years ago by somebody. If its all real why don't people rise from the dead now adays and do impossible stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???
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The time of miracles is over, my friend. Now all we can do is find miracles in our lives. However in Islam, there are miracles in the Qur'an. So for Muslims, we always have something to believe in. God has to allow suffering because it is our fault. This whole life is test to see how loyal we are to Him. They are dying because of us. We could go and fix the problem, but the authorities are not bothering. Britian and america could leave iraq alone and send troops to darthfur where genocide is happening. But they will not. | Quote: |
1) Jesus died because He was TOTALLY submitted to God's will. When you submit yourself to God's will, you do as your told, and as a Son, it's your responsibility to obey your Father. And you know what? Jesus didn't pray to not die. Jesus prayed that this was the right thing to do. Jesus prayed that being crucified was part of the plan.
And we don't know why God didn't use his all-powerfulness to relieve sin. Perhaps it's because he wanted someone (Jesus) to show the proper way to follow him, and because he wanted the people who refused to believe in him be punished.
I may answer the others later, but the answers are varying because of personal interpretation of the Bible. Therefore, I can't really say what is right and not.
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"And we don't know why God didn't use his all-powerfulness to relieve sin. Perhaps it's because he wanted someone (Jesus) to show the proper way to follow him, and because he wanted the people who refused to believe in him be punished."
but that's my question! Why would God let a human being suffer, instead of using His Power? | Quote: |
You have some wonderful questions and I hope I can give you some answers that make sense.
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Thanks.
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God did not kill Jesus, Jesus gave himself.....While Jesus did ask if this could be stopped, he always stated not my will, but yours (talking about God's will). And God did answer his prayer, God said no, this cup could not be taken from him.
I realize it's easy to say that God doesn't answer our prayers when nothing happens when we pray, but sometimes God says wait or no and we don't understand.
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You answered part 1 of the questions, but what about pain? Why God let a human being suffer so much, instead of using His power to forgive?
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Jesus never really questioned God, all he did was ask that he not be crucified if it was God's will. It is our nature to not want to die, Jesus was God and man. The man part didn't want to die either. Knowing that you would have to go through what he did, would you have done it without at least asking that it not happen if it didn't need to.
Plus you have to look at the fact that God cannot look at sin. When Jesus was dying, he had taken our sin on him so God could not look at him.
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But that means all the humans upto Jesus could not be looked on. Because we all had sin. So why was Jesus repeating the obvious, that they all felt seperated from God?
Also "Eloih, Eloih, why have you forsaken me?" sounds alot like "God why did you leave me to die on the cross?". How come Jesus is asking a question that he should know the answer to?
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The verse you are referring to is:
Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Mark 15:25
And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.
The third hour was 9am. Their day started at 6:00 in the morning.
Going by this, he did stay three days and three nights.
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thursday day
thursday night........day 0
friday day : Jesus crucified
friday night............day 1
saturday morning
saturday night........day 2
sunday morning : Jesus rose
sunday night..........day 3
monday morning
monday night.........day 4
Well he still rose the wrong time. According to my timetable above Jesus was dead for 2 days, 2 nights. How come Jesus rose early?
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5) Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
As to why Jesus didn't know at that time when, I honestly can say. My opinion is that He didn't need to know at that time.
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My question was not asking about Jesus, but the holy spirit. Why did the holy spirit which had not reduced itself to a man, not know the time? "the father ONLY".
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Before Jesus was crucified, the only way to have sin rolled forward was by the blood of cows and goats. God knew that wasn't good enough, plus it didn't allow any Gentiles the ability to know God. This was for the Jews only. Since Jesus gave his life for us as our sacrifice, he paved the way for Jew and Gentile to know him. It has nothing to do with our sins never being punished, but by the fact that through the blood of Jesus, our sins are forgiven if we pray for forgiveness. Man is born into sin, so of course the punishment for sin is still there. Each man or woman has to go to Jesus to ask for forgiveness, it's not given just because of. It has to asked for.
As far as the pain and suffering during child birth, it's worth it. I have two children and the pleasure I receive with my children is worth any amount of pain that comes with it. Also, I don't see where that will ever change. I don't care what you do, trying to squeeze something the size of a watermelon out of a hole the size of a grape will hurt.
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Oh okay thanks. Children are great | Quote: |
| You answered part 1 of the questions, but what about pain? Why God let a human being suffer so much, instead of using His power to forgive? |
Please know that these are my opinions only.
As Christians, we look as God as being our Father, You do understand that, correct? That being the case, let's look at the way a good father treats his children and how children may or not react.
If you give your children everything they ask for, are you really doing them a favor? Will not the child become spoilt, believing that they don't have to anything on their own to get something. After all, why should they when their father will give it to them if they ask? They will never learn to stand on their own two feet, never learn to stand up for themself. God does want to do for us, but he understands that some lessons we have to learn for ourself, just like we understand that our children have to learn some lessons for themselves. We can tell them why not to do something or why they should, but until they live it, they will never understand. As a father with a baby, do you walk for him, or instead try to help him stand and learn to walk on his own? Do you try to keep him from the sharp edges that he's heading toward, do you comfort him when he makes a mistake or is hurt? That is what God does for us. He wants us to learn to walk on our own. He'll try and guide us away from the sharp edges but somethings we have to learn on our own.
As far as the pain, how do we appreciate the good times unless we have some bad. how do we become stronger unless we're tried and tempted. To make metal strong, you have to put it in the fire and get rid of all the impurities. The same is true for us.
As to why Jesus had to suffer, He took on every characteristic of mankind, he also took mocking, envy, ridicule, scorn, yet still he forgave. He suffered so we could be healed. The verse "by His strips we are healed" and I've seen people healed of things that no doctor can heal. He done it because He loved us.
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But that means all the humans upto Jesus could not be looked on. Because we all had sin. So why was Jesus repeating the obvious, that they all felt seperated from God?
Also "Eloih, Eloih, why have you forsaken me?" sounds alot like "God why did you leave me to die on the cross?". How come Jesus is asking a question that he should know the answer to? |
You are correct to a point. The Gentiles were not looked upon by God because they had no way to come to know him unless they joined the Tribe of Israel. Through the sacrifice of bulls and goats, the Jews were able to roll their sins forward until the next year, when they would have to go through it again. Also, the only ones that could actually talk to God were the High Priests. The average man had no way to talk to God and have a personal relationship with him. When Jesus gave his life for us, he tore the veil in two and became our high priest. Now we can have the one on one relationship with God that was denied before.
As far as why Jesus said "Why have you forsaken me?" Jesus was covered with the sin of all men, past, present and future. And as I already stated, God cannot look upon sin. God had literally turned his back on Jesus. That is why He made that comment, but it was only while Jesus was carriing the sins for us.
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thursday day
thursday night........day 0
friday day : Jesus crucified
friday night............day 1
saturday morning
saturday night........day 2
sunday morning : Jesus rose
sunday night..........day 3
monday morning
monday night.........day 4
Well he still rose the wrong time. According to my timetable above Jesus was dead for 2 days, 2 nights. How come Jesus rose early? |
Let's look at it this way:
Thursday morning to Friday morning - day 1
Friday morning to Saturday morning - day 2
Saturday morning to Sunday morning - day 3
At least that is how we look upon it. He didn't die that evening, He died i the morning. It didn't take that long for Jesus to die on the cross.
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My question was not asking about Jesus, but the holy spirit. Why did the holy spirit which had not reduced itself to a man, not know the time? "the father ONLY".
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Sorry for the typo, I meant "I can't say". And whose to say that the Holy Spirit doesn't know, since it's God's presense in us, and just isn't saying? If you knew when a thief would be coming to your house, wouldn't you be prepared for that time only?
The over all thing is it's God's plan. His plan, His creation, His timeline. Man is on a need to know basis, so He won't tell us. He said that we should live each day as if it's our last because we don't know, and if we live that way, one day we'll be correct.
God doesn't want us to worry about that, yet it seems that is all man wants to worry about. God will come when He comes. We will die when it's our time. Why worry about something that we have no control over?
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| Oh okay thanks. Children are great |
Thanks, I agree completely. Children are a true blessing.
Anyway, I hope that helps. If not, let me know and I'll try to do better. | Quote: |
Mark 15:25
And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.
The third hour was 9am. Their day started at 6:00 in the morning.
Going by this, he did stay three days and three nights. |
At the beginning a few words about the ancient Hebrew's ways of counting time [IMHO it's not as important as the questions you asked but I don't have enough time to explain all of them right now]. In their culture, a new day started at the moment of sunset. They celebrated all of their holidays on the Eve the day before, that also explains the behaviour of Jews in this passage: | John 19:31 wrote: |
| Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. |
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And counting of hours started as you wrote, from 6am, that is from the sunrise. In the 15th chapter of the Gospel if Mark, there's also written that Jesus died about the 9th hour, that is 3 pm. They hurried to bury His body before the sunset as it was forbidden to do any work in the day of Sabbath [and it started at 6 pm]. So Jesus was laid to the tomb still on Friday, He was laying there the whole Sabbath = Saturday, and during the night from Saturday to Sunday [in the Hebrew way of counting, on Sunday] he rose.
So he has been in the tomb during some hours on Friday, Saturday and Sunday = 3 days. I know this is a bit complicated, it took me some time to understand . I even remember that when I was a little child I got a bad mark when I wrote on a test that Jesus was in the tomb a bit less than two days, and later proved it mathematically 
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I'd love to write a few lines on other questions... but it would be too much for once, and I wouldn't feel like reading this all myself Another time I will for sure. 
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Please know that these are my opinions only.
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That's okay
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As Christians, we look as God as being our Father, You do understand that, correct? That being the case, let's look at the way a good father treats his children and how children may or not react.
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I understand it well, but i am not a Christian.
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If you give your children everything they ask for, are you really doing them a favor? Will not the child become spoilt, believing that they don't have to anything on their own to get something. After all, why should they when their father will give it to them if they ask? They will never learn to stand on their own two feet, never learn to stand up for themself. God does want to do for us, but he understands that some lessons we have to learn for ourself, just like we understand that our children have to learn some lessons for themselves. We can tell them why not to do something or why they should, but until they live it, they will never understand. As a father with a baby, do you walk for him, or instead try to help him stand and learn to walk on his own? Do you try to keep him from the sharp edges that he's heading toward, do you comfort him when he makes a mistake or is hurt? That is what God does for us. He wants us to learn to walk on our own. He'll try and guide us away from the sharp edges but somethings we have to learn on our own.
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Well for Jesus, we all know he's a special guy. I mean he is supposed to be sinless, so it's not like he is going to sin. So i do not understand how Jesus would become spoilt? Unless you actually mean, that Jesus can sin, and God was protecting him?
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As far as the pain, how do we appreciate the good times unless we have some bad. how do we become stronger unless we're tried and tempted. To make metal strong, you have to put it in the fire and get rid of all the impurities. The same is true for us.
As to why Jesus had to suffer, He took on every characteristic of mankind, he also took mocking, envy, ridicule, scorn, yet still he forgave. He suffered so we could be healed. The verse "by His strips we are healed" and I've seen people healed of things that no doctor can heal. He done it because He loved us.
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But Jesus is supposed to be perfect? How can he appreciate the good times when surely he was probaly teaching the disciples to appreciate the good times. Jesus would have always forgiven the people who mocked him. What is the point of the crucification if proving the obvious?
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You are correct to a point. The Gentiles were not looked upon by God because they had no way to come to know him unless they joined the Tribe of Israel.
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I disagree there. All people on earth are under the blessings of God, unless they reject it when they reach adulthood/maturity. Otherwise it just would not be fair.
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Through the sacrifice of bulls and goats, the Jews were able to roll their sins forward until the next year, when they would have to go through it again. Also, the only ones that could actually talk to God were the High Priests. The average man had no way to talk to God and have a personal relationship with him. When Jesus gave his life for us, he tore the veil in two and became our high priest. Now we can have the one on one relationship
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But surely they could have relationships. I mean an average poor Jew just has to believe in God, and really love Him, and submit to have a relationship surely? What maks the high priest so special? nothing except he got to the position.
If Jesus took the sins upon himself, did he die in sin?
Thanks God bless you.When I referred to getting spoilt and having to go through pain, I was talking about man, not Jesus. Sorry if I didn't explain it correctly.
As far as could Jesus sin? Truthfully, yes, he could have. He was part flesh after all. His mother was human like us. His father was God. He just choose not to sin.
Also, I realize that you aren't a Christian, it just seemed to be the easiest way to express it where you can understand how Christians look at this, and I hope I accomplished that.
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| I disagree there. All people on earth are under the blessings of God, unless they reject it when they reach adulthood/maturity. Otherwise it just would not be fair. |
Yes, all people now can have a relationship with God, but it wasn't always like that. But to understand the New Testament, you have to understand the Old Testament. They are both part of the Bible and both are important in our walk with God. And if I state things you already know, please understand I mean no insult, I'm just trying to help you understand where I'm coming from.
The Old Testament is the history of how the world was created as well as the history of the Jews and their walk with God. From the time God set up his covenant with Abraham and his children, you will not read anywhere where God spoke to someone that was not from the seed of Abraham, at least not until you start getting into the New Testament. Gentiles, during this time frame were considered lower that pond scum. They were nothing. Jews were to have nothing to do with them. A Gentile could join the Jews, but there where things he/she had to do to be adopted into the tribe, and most were not nice at all. As far as being fair, I agree, but that's the way God set it up. He set aside Abraham and his children to be his chosen people, the rest of the people on Earth, from that time until Peter went to Cornelius (New Testament), God had nothing to do with.
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| But surely they could have relationships. I mean an average poor Jew just has to believe in God, and really love Him, and submit to have a relationship surely? What maks the high priest so special? nothing except he got to the position. |
Not really, the average Jew could not have a one on one relationship with God, at least not once the Tabernacle was set up. And you have to remember, we're talking about the Old Testament time, before the time of Jesus' death. There were 3 sections to the Tabernacle: the courtyard, where most offerings were made; the in sanctuary, where the several items were; then you had the Holy of Holy. This is where the Ark of the Covenant sat, and where God lived. God resided in the Holy of Holys and the only person allowed in there was the high priest. There was also a certain order things had to be done in the sactuary, if it was not done correctly, the high priest would die right then and there. And the high priest could only be from the tribe of Levi. This was a harsh time to live. There were certain rules you had to follow, if you broke these rules, most of the time the punishment was death. (There's no other way to say this except it was a very, very barbaric time.)
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| If Jesus took the sins upon himself, did he die in sin? |
Yes, He actually did, but He overcame death, hell and the grave when he was resurrected. Jesus was without sin until he took our on himself. He never committed a sin, so he became the perfect sacrifice for us.
Please don't take this wrong, but I wish you were here so we could talk in person and you could talk to my father-in-law. He can explain things so much easier than me. Jesus willingly took on our sins so all man could have a chance to come to God. Now, because of him, we can have a one on one relationship with God. This ability is open to anyone whose willing to do it. It doesn't matter what nationality or background a person has, they are welcome. | Quote: |
As far as why Jesus said "Why have you forsaken me?" Jesus was covered with the sin of all men, past, present and future. And as I already stated, God cannot look upon sin. God had literally turned his back on Jesus. That is why He made that comment, but it was only while Jesus was carriing the sins for us.
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But that leads to question 2. Abraham covered by sin. He was ready to sacrifice his own son. Ishmael/Isaac was prepared to die for God. Even a man would be happy when he died because he would be a martyr. Yet Jesus who is supposed to have a divine side as well, he knows about all this stuff. But why would he say such a sentence?
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thursday day
thursday night........day 0
friday day : Jesus crucified
friday night............day 1
saturday morning
saturday night........day 2
sunday morning : Jesus rose
sunday night..........day 3
monday morning
monday night.........day 4
Well he still rose the wrong time. According to my timetable above Jesus was dead for 2 days, 2 nights. How come Jesus rose early?
Let's look at it this way:
Thursday morning to Friday morning - day 1
Friday morning to Saturday morning - day 2
Saturday morning to Sunday morning - day 3
At least that is how we look upon it. He didn't die that evening, He died i the morning. It didn't take that long for Jesus to die on the cross.
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Jesus was crucified on friday morning. So day one in your timetable does not exist.
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Sorry for the typo, I meant "I can't say". And whose to say that the Holy Spirit doesn't know, since it's God's presense in us, and just isn't saying? If you knew when a thief would be coming to your house, wouldn't you be prepared for that time only?
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I do not understand the relevance between the thief and the holy spirit. The holy spirit does not know. The verse said only the father knows. And some manuscripts included the son not knowing. Now we are referring to the parts of the trinity. So only the father parts knows. Only. That is why the holy spirit does not know.
So why does the holy spirit not know? The trinity is supposed to be co-equal?
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The over all thing is it's God's plan. His plan, His creation, His timeline. Man is on a need to know basis, so He won't tell us. He said that we should live each day as if it's our last because we don't know, and if we live that way, one day we'll be correct.
God doesn't want us to worry about that, yet it seems that is all man wants to worry about. God will come when He comes. We will die when it's our time. Why worry about something that we have no control over?
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Wise words.
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When I referred to getting spoilt and having to go through pain, I was talking about man, not Jesus. Sorry if I didn't explain it correctly.
As far as could Jesus sin? Truthfully, yes, he could have. He was part flesh after all. His mother was human like us. His father was God. He just choose not to sin.
Also, I realize that you aren't a Christian, it just seemed to be the easiest way to express it where you can understand how Christians look at this, and I hope I accomplished that.
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Oh. Well then why did Jesus had to suffer instead of God using His Power?
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Yes, all people now can have a relationship with God, but it wasn't always like that. But to understand the New Testament, you have to understand the Old Testament. They are both part of the Bible and both are important in our walk with God. And if I state things you already know, please understand I mean no insult, I'm just trying to help you understand where I'm coming from.
The Old Testament is the history of how the world was created as well as the history of the Jews and their walk with God. From the time God set up his covenant with Abraham and his children, you will not read anywhere where God spoke to someone that was not from the seed of Abraham, at least not until you start getting into the New Testament.
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I disagree with you there. An intensive study of the Bible shows the Old Testament was made from four different sources including the E and so on sources. Each tribe was from Judaism but each had its opinions. For example one of the sources made Aaron did all the work and Moses was just a prophet who was terible. But another make it look at though they were a team.
Thus, because the Old Testament was written by the Jews, we have no idea if God spoke to a non-Jew or not.
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Gentiles, during this time frame were considered lower that pond scum. They were nothing. Jews were to have nothing to do with them. A Gentile could join the Jews, but there where things he/she had to do to be adopted into the tribe, and most were not nice at all. As far as being fair, I agree, but that's the way God set it up. He set aside Abraham and his children to be his chosen people, the rest of the people on Earth, from that time until Peter went to Cornelius (New Testament), God had nothing to do with.
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But that means God is unjust and unfair. He choose one group over another.
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Not really, the average Jew could not have a one on one relationship with God, at least not once the Tabernacle was set up. And you have to remember, we're talking about the Old Testament time, before the time of Jesus' death. There were 3 sections to the Tabernacle: the courtyard, where most offerings were made; the in sanctuary, where the several items were; then you had the Holy of Holy. This is where the Ark of the Covenant sat, and where God lived. God resided in the Holy of Holys and the only person allowed in there was the high priest. There was also a certain order things had to be done in the sactuary, if it was not done correctly, the high priest would die right then and there. And the high priest could only be from the tribe of Levi. This was a harsh time to live. There were certain rules you had to follow, if you broke these rules, most of the time the punishment was death. (There's no other way to say this except it was a very, very barbaric time.)
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I would not call it barbaric. I completely disagree. The arab tribes before Islam was founded, were always avenging death. The Torah gives Laws to stone sometimes. You cannot call something from God, barbaric. Those laws fit in with the culture, and so on. If we applied cutting off the hand for stealing, i think america would loose most of its crimes connected with stealing lol.
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Yes, He actually did, but He overcame death, hell and the grave when he was resurrected. Jesus was without sin until he took our on himself. He never committed a sin, so he became the perfect sacrifice for us.
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But doesn't mean he will go to hell on the Final Day?
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Please don't take this wrong, but I wish you were here so we could talk in person and you could talk to my father-in-law.
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So do i. Who is he? A priest or a preacher or something?
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He can explain things so much easier than me. Jesus willingly took on our sins so all man could have a chance to come to God. Now, because of him, we can have a one on one relationship with God. This ability is open to anyone whose willing to do it. It doesn't matter what nationality or background a person has, they are welcome.
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And that is how it is meant to be | Quote: |
At the beginning a few words about the ancient Hebrew's ways of counting time it's not as important as the questions you asked but I don't have enough time to explain all of them right now]. In their culture, a new day started at the moment of sunset. They celebrated all of their holidays on the Eve the day before, that also explains the behaviour of Jews in this passage:
John 19:31 wrote:
Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
.
And counting of hours started as you wrote, from 6am, that is from the sunrise. In the 15th chapter of the Gospel if Mark, there's also written that Jesus died about the 9th hour, that is 3 pm. They hurried to bury His body before the sunset as it was forbidden to do any work in the day of Sabbath [and it started at 6 pm]. So Jesus was laid to the tomb still on Friday, He was laying there the whole Sabbath = Saturday, and during the night from Saturday to Sunday [in the Hebrew way of counting, on Sunday] he rose.
So he has been in the tomb during some hours on Friday, Saturday and Sunday = 3 days. I know this is a bit complicated, it took me some time to understand Smile. I even remember that when I was a little child I got a bad mark when I wrote on a test that Jesus was in the tomb a bit less than two days, and later proved it mathematically Laughing.
I'd love to write a few lines on other questions... but it would be too much for once, and I wouldn't feel like reading this all myself Smile Another time I will for sure.
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Thanks. But isn't my table still right? I already knew about the Jewish counting.
thursday day
thursday night........day begins
friday day : Jesus crucified day 0
friday night............day begins
saturday day day 1
saturday night........day begins
sunday day : Jesus rose day 2
sunday night..........day begins
Well he still rose the wrong time. According to my timetable above Jesus was dead for 2 days, 2 nights. How come Jesus rose early? | loyal wrote: |
| Oh. Well then why did Jesus had to suffer instead of God using His Power? |
One thought is the idea of right handed vs left handed power, sorry I forget who it originated with. In Rome we have this picture of extreme power, they pretty much run the world with a do something against us and you die, with plenty of reminders along the roads in the form of dead bodies hanging on a cross, and pictures and reminders of the emperor all over. Think Saddom Heussein and you've got the idea of right handed power. A power based in fear. Its what the world considers power.
On the other hand (sorry couldn't resist), we see a picture of left handed power in Jesus. The power of a "suffering servant" as he beautifully put it. Its a power based in love. Its one that turns the other check and exposes the injustice in the world without joining in that injustice. The beautiful thing was everyone thought that the right-handed power had won with the cruicifixion, since death is the ultimate end of right handed power. But in the resurrection Jesus showed that love ultimately wins over all. To take a page from Rob Bell of the Grand Rapids Mars Hill Bible Church, Love Wins.
| loyal wrote: |
| But that means God is unjust and unfair. He choose one group over another. |
People tend to miss out on the inclusive nature of God's choosing of people. God's choice of a person/people/nations for inclusion doesn't mean the exclusion of all others in the long run. God choose Abraham to be the begining of His nation, but a quick search with BibleGateway will show he was blessed to be a blessing, and that all people will be blessed through him. (Genesis 12, with refrences to that in Genesis 18,22,26 Pslam 72, Galatians 3 to name a quick few). The very begining of what it meant to be a person of God meant we use God's blessing to bless others.
We see this played out again with Jacob and Easu. God choose Jacob even though the birth-right should have gone to Easu. Later on in the story, after the two have seperated they meet up again and the two are reconcilied to each other and God, to the point of Easu appearing like God to Jacob (if I recall the text correctly).
And ultimately we see all of this come to a full head with Jesus, and the gospel going to those that were previously excluded, or maybe a better semantic word would be temporatily un-included, the Gentiles. God is fulfilling the original promise to Abraham to bless the world through him.
Its the wonderful inclusive nature of God's choosing.First of all, Jesus asked God that he would not have to crusified, but stated "Yet not my will, but Thy will!" There is no other solution for sins forgivness but to offer a blameless one to wipe out the sins of man! Jesus knew that we are not able to fulfill the law so He did it for us!
I will answer your first question:
| Quote: |
| Why did God not answer Jesus' prayers not to die? |
Jesus wanted to die. (in a sense)
He knew that he had to die to open heaven for everybody else, so he freely submitted himself to the cruel evil of the people who crucified him. | loyal wrote: |
1) God killed Jesus in the crucifications when He could have easily used His All-Powerfulness to forgive sins, and did not answer his prayers despite him praying all night long.
Matthew 26:39, Mark 14:36, and Luke 22:42. |
God did not kill Jesus. Jesus said:"The Father loves me because I lay down my life in order to take it up again. No one takes it from me; I lay it down of my own freewill." (John 10:17)
| loyal wrote: |
2) When Abraham was told by God to sacrifice his son, his son did not object or question him, if Jesus was sent to be sacrificed for our sins, why would he question God?
"Eloih, Eloih, why have you forsaken me?"
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The quote is from Psalm 22 and is the Jew's evening prayer. It actually ends with a great shout of thanksgiving to Yahweh (see vv. 22-31) Jesus was not questioning him. He was just beginning to pray a song of thanksgiving.
| loyal wrote: |
3) Why did Jesus rise up on the wrong day?
Jesus was asked for a miracle. Instead of saying "look at that dead man who rose", he said something like "three days and three nights i will be like Jonus". Except for this: he rose in the morning. That means he rose a night earlier. How could this happen? |
They didn't count a day as 24 hours. Sunrise to sunset is one day.
| loyal wrote: |
4) How can Jesus be god, if he was given all authority and power?
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Read the whole of John 1:1-18. Besides in several instances in John, Jesus says that he is "I Am". "I Am" is God's name in Exodus 3.
| loyal wrote: |
5) Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
This verse has always been brought up to prove that Jesus himself is not God since he is not all-knowing. |
Though he was in the form of God, St. Paul writes, Jesus did not deem equality with God something to be grasped at. Rather, he emptied himself, being born in the likeness of man
Jesus "emptied" himself and was like any human being.
| loyal wrote: |
6) What was the point of the crucification? Jesus never wiped the sins off mankind because the women even nowadays suffer pains during labor and the man eats the fruits of his labor/ toil. It was an important indication for the redemption of the sins, that at least the Christian women should not suffer pain during labor and Christian men should not have to work hard to earn their bread.
The pains and the sufferings are still there. So the punishment of the original sin of Adam and Eve is still very much there.
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The issue is not about pains being wiped away. The issue is about DEATH. And by the resurrection of Jesus, Death has lost its grasp on humanity. Or as St. Paul would put it, mankind has been saved from the wrath of God. | Quote: |
Oh. Well then why did Jesus had to suffer instead of God using His Power?
One thought is the idea of right handed vs left handed power, sorry I forget who it originated with. In Rome we have this picture of extreme power, they pretty much run the world with a do something against us and you die, with plenty of reminders along the roads in the form of dead bodies hanging on a cross, and pictures and reminders of the emperor all over. Think Saddom Heussein and you've got the idea of right handed power. A power based in fear. Its what the world considers power.
On the other hand (sorry couldn't resist), we see a picture of left handed power in Jesus. The power of a "suffering servant" as he beautifully put it. Its a power based in love. Its one that turns the other check and exposes the injustice in the world without joining in that injustice. The beautiful thing was everyone thought that the right-handed power had won with the cruicifixion, since death is the ultimate end of right handed power. But in the resurrection Jesus showed that love ultimately wins over all. To take a page from Rob Bell of the Grand Rapids Mars Hill Bible Church, Love Wins.
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I don't understand what you mean. When God wants to show off power, he sents a flood. And then sends a rainbow as mercy. Why did God not use His All-Knowingness to find an alternative to torturing Jesus? God knows everything and therefore knows an alternative. He also knows how to carry out this plan because of Wisedom.
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People tend to miss out on the inclusive nature of God's choosing of people. God's choice of a person/people/nations for inclusion doesn't mean the exclusion of all others in the long run. God choose Abraham to be the begining of His nation, but a quick search with BibleGateway will show he was blessed to be a blessing, and that all people will be blessed through him. (Genesis 12, with refrences to that in Genesis 18,22,26 Pslam 72, Galatians 3 to name a quick few). The very begining of what it meant to be a person of God meant we use God's blessing to bless others.
We see this played out again with Jacob and Easu. God choose Jacob even though the birth-right should have gone to Easu. Later on in the story, after the two have seperated they meet up again and the two are reconcilied to each other and God, to the point of Easu appearing like God to Jacob (if I recall the text correctly).
And ultimately we see all of this come to a full head with Jesus, and the gospel going to those that were previously excluded, or maybe a better semantic word would be temporatily un-included, the Gentiles. God is fulfilling the original promise to Abraham to bless the world through him.
Its the wonderful inclusive nature of God's choosing.
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Oh okay cool | Quote: |
First of all, Jesus asked God that he would not have to crusified, but stated "Yet not my will, but Thy will!" There is no other solution for sins forgivness but to offer a blameless one to wipe out the sins of man! Jesus knew that we are not able to fulfill the law so He did it for us!
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There is no other solution? Yes there is. God could have thought of one. If you say He could not, you deny God's knowledge and power.
Jesus prayed not to die. He did not want to die. "Take this cup away". | Quote: |
I will answer your first question:
Quote:
Why did God not answer Jesus' prayers not to die?
Jesus wanted to die. (in a sense)
He knew that he had to die to open heaven for everybody else, so he freely submitted himself to the cruel evil of the people who crucified him.
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Jesus prayed not to die three times. "Take this cup away". | Quote: |
loyal wrote:
1) God killed Jesus in the crucifications when He could have easily used His All-Powerfulness to forgive sins, and did not answer his prayers despite him praying all night long.
Matthew 26:39, Mark 14:36, and Luke 22:42.
God did not kill Jesus. Jesus said:"The Father loves me because I lay down my life in order to take it up again. No one takes it from me; I lay it down of my own freewill." (John 10:17)
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Yet strangely Jesus prays THREE times, and begs not to die.
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loyal wrote:
2) When Abraham was told by God to sacrifice his son, his son did not object or question him, if Jesus was sent to be sacrificed for our sins, why would he question God?
"Eloih, Eloih, why have you forsaken me?"
The quote is from Psalm 22 and is the Jew's evening prayer. It actually ends with a great shout of thanksgiving to Yahweh (see vv. 22-31) Jesus was not questioning him. He was just beginning to pray a song of thanksgiving.
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Lol. I doubt that very much. I'm not sure about you, but i doubt Jesus would burst into song, inspired by the pain, and almost dead.
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loyal wrote:
3) Why did Jesus rise up on the wrong day?
Jesus was asked for a miracle. Instead of saying "look at that dead man who rose", he said something like "three days and three nights i will be like Jonus". Except for this: he rose in the morning. That means he rose a night earlier. How could this happen?
They didn't count a day as 24 hours. Sunrise to sunset is one day.
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I know. And he still rose up wrong.
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loyal wrote:
4) How can Jesus be god, if he was given all authority and power?
Read the whole of John 1:1-18. Besides in several instances in John, Jesus says that he is "I Am". "I Am" is God's name in Exodus 3.
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You avoided the question.
As for 'i am'.
The claim in John 8:56-59 "before Abraham was born, I am" is not the same as "worship me!" The fact that Jesus was present before Abraham is not the same as him saying "worship me!" What then would we say about Solomon Proverbs 8:22-31) and Melchizedec (Hebrews 7:3), who were supposedly present not only before Abraham, but also before all of creation? What about the many others who were either anointed, consecrated or made holy, before their births. (see Ps.89:20, Is. 45:1, 61:1, 1 Sam. 24:6, and Jer.1:5)?
With regard to your comparison of "I am" in the verse of Exodus 3:14 with that of John 8:59, please note that in John 9:9, a beggar who was healed by prophet Jesus used these exact same words used by Jesus ("I am") to refer to himself. We read
"Some said, This is he (the beggar): others [said], He is like him: [but] he said, I am [he]."
John 9:9.
Here we have a very clear statement from the beggar that he was "implying" that he too was God Almighty. Is this not how the "translators" have chosen to translate and "interpret" such verses?. Please note that the word "he" was not uttered by this beggar. What he actually said was "I am." He used the exact same words that Jesus used. Word for word. Does this now make this beggar too the "incarnation" of God? Also notice that when the Jews asked this beggar about the identity of the one who healed him (Jesus) he replied
"And he said, 'He is a prophet.'"
John 9:17
Further, please notice how the "translators" chose to add the word "he" after the beggar's statement, but they did not chose to do so when Jesus said the exact same words.
Just because the English translation of these verses is performed such that they become the same English words does not mean that the original words are the same. The first is the GREEK word eimi {i-mee'}, while the second is the HEBREW word hayah {haw-yaw}. While both can be translated into English to mean the same thing, they are in actuality two distinctly different words.
The exact same Greek word (eimi {i-mee'}) is translated as "I" in Matthew 26:22:
"And they [the disciples] were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?"
However, if we want to translate this word as "I am" when Jesus says it then we need to be honest and consistent and translate it the exact same way when the disciples say it too. In such a case, Matthew 26:22 would be translated as follows:
"And they [the disciples] were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I am?"
So, if we were to follow these translator's chosen "translation" techniques, shall we now claim that the disciples of Jesus too are God? Here we have them saying so very clearly. We have them asking Jesus in black and white "Are we God?." Is this not what they were "implying?." Should the inspiration of God be reduced to our "implications"?
When the translators have not allowed their preconceived doctrines to color their translation the result has been such faithful translations of John 8:58 as the following:
"'Truly, truly I tell you,' said Jesus, 'I have existed before Abraham was born'"
The Holy Bible Containing the Old and New Testaments, Dr. James Moffatt, John 8:58
and "Jesus said to them, 'I tell you, I existed before Abraham was born'"
The Complete Bible, an American Translation, by Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, John 8:58
In Exodus 3:4, we read that prophet Moses used this exact same term to refer to himself, however, now strangely enough, no one has ever tried to claim that Moses is God or that he was mimicking the words of God found ten verses later in the same book of Exodus. We read:
"And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here I am."
Exodus 3:4
Notice how people are driven in a chosen direction of faith through selective translation? Also remember that Jesus (pbuh) did not speak GREEK. If only the church had not felt it necessary to burn all of the original Hebrew manuscripts of the Bible.
Is it so hard to bring us one clear verse like the above verse of Isaiah 66:23 wherein Jesus (pbuh) also says "worship me!"? Why must we infer? If Jesus is God or the Son of God then this is his right. The Bible should be overflowing with verses where Jesus explicitly commands his followers to worship him, where God explicitly commands mankind to worship his son, where God explicitly threatens those who do not worship His son with brimstone and hellfire, and so forth. The Bible is overflowing with verses like this from God about Himself, and from Jesus (pbuh) about God, but there are none from Jesus (pbuh) about himself. Why is it necessary:
1. For God Almighty to explicitly command us to worship Him, and
2. for Jesus to explicitly command us to worship "the Father."
while it is not necessary:
1. For Jesus (pbuh) to explicitly command us to worship him, or
2. for God to explicitly command us to worship "the Son"?
Is this not a fair request?
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loyal wrote:
5) Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
This verse has always been brought up to prove that Jesus himself is not God since he is not all-knowing.
Though he was in the form of God, St. Paul writes, Jesus did not deem equality with God something to be grasped at. Rather, he emptied himself, being born in the likeness of man
Jesus "emptied" himself and was like any human being.
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You never answered my question. You quoted half of it. The question was, if ONLY the father knows, then the holy spirit which has not reduced itself, also does not know. So the trinity is no co-equal.
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loyal wrote:
6) What was the point of the crucification? Jesus never wiped the sins off mankind because the women even nowadays suffer pains during labor and the man eats the fruits of his labor/ toil. It was an important indication for the redemption of the sins, that at least the Christian women should not suffer pain during labor and Christian men should not have to work hard to earn their bread.
The pains and the sufferings are still there. So the punishment of the original sin of Adam and Eve is still very much there.
The issue is not about pains being wiped away. The issue is about DEATH. And by the resurrection of Jesus, Death has lost its grasp on humanity. Or as St. Paul would put it, mankind has been saved from the wrath of God.
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So nothing happened from the crucifixtion? People still die.Why are there four bibles?
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As far as why Jesus said "Why have you forsaken me?" Jesus was covered with the sin of all men, past, present and future. And as I already stated, God cannot look upon sin. God had literally turned his back on Jesus. That is why He made that comment, but it was only while Jesus was carriing the sins for us.
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But that leads to question 2. Abraham covered by sin. He was ready to sacrifice his own son. Ishmael/Isaac was prepared to die for God. Even a man would be happy when he died because he would be a martyr. Yet Jesus who is supposed to have a divine side as well, he knows about all this stuff. But why would he say such a sentence? |
Was he actually willing to die? The Bible doesn't say. All it shows is that he trusted his father, the same way Abraham trusted God.
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thursday day
thursday night........day 0
friday day : Jesus crucified
friday night............day 1
saturday morning
saturday night........day 2
sunday morning : Jesus rose
sunday night..........day 3
monday morning
monday night.........day 4
Well he still rose the wrong time. According to my timetable above Jesus was dead for 2 days, 2 nights. How come Jesus rose early?
Let's look at it this way:
Thursday morning to Friday morning - day 1
Friday morning to Saturday morning - day 2
Saturday morning to Sunday morning - day 3
At least that is how we look upon it. He didn't die that evening, He died i the morning. It didn't take that long for Jesus to die on the cross.
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Jesus was crucified on friday morning. So day one in your timetable does not exist. |
You're correct, and I apologize, I was thinking about something else. Glad I never stated that I was an expert on this. lol Let me get with someone who can explain it better than I, then I'll get back with you on tihs one.
[/quote] | Quote: |
Sorry for the typo, I meant "I can't say". And whose to say that the Holy Spirit doesn't know, since it's God's presense in us, and just isn't saying? If you knew when a thief would be coming to your house, wouldn't you be prepared for that time only?
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I do not understand the relevance between the thief and the holy spirit. The holy spirit does not know. The verse said only the father knows. And some manuscripts included the son not knowing. Now we are referring to the parts of the trinity. So only the father parts knows. Only. That is why the holy spirit does not know.
So why does the holy spirit not know? The trinity is supposed to be co-equal? | Quote: |
For one thing, I don't believe that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are three different beings. I believe that they are all part of the same being.
Let's look at it this way, and I hope it helps. Our body is made up of different sections, parts if you will. Each part has a specific function and only knows what it's supposed to do. For the sake of argument, let's pretend that each part of our body has understanding and can think on it's own. Each part would think different because it has a different function. The eyes can smell like our nose can, neither can our nose smell, so it would only make sense that they would think differently. They would not have the same understanding of how things work or what is going on. If you lost the ability to see with your eyes, you're nose wouldn't automatically take over that ability.
The same applies to Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Even though it's all part of one being, they have different responsibilites so have different understandings of how things work.
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The over all thing is it's God's plan. His plan, His creation, His timeline. Man is on a need to know basis, so He won't tell us. He said that we should live each day as if it's our last because we don't know, and if we live that way, one day we'll be correct.
God doesn't want us to worry about that, yet it seems that is all man wants to worry about. God will come when He comes. We will die when it's our time. Why worry about something that we have no control over?
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Wise words. |
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Thank you, but it's honestly how I feel. Am I afraid to die, not really because I understand that one day I will. Do I want to? No. I want to grow old and see my children become adults. I want to play with my grandchildren when I have some. I want to watch my love for my husband grow stronger as we grow older together.
Anyway, off the subject here. Sorry.
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When I referred to getting spoilt and having to go through pain, I was talking about man, not Jesus. Sorry if I didn't explain it correctly.
As far as could Jesus sin? Truthfully, yes, he could have. He was part flesh after all. His mother was human like us. His father was God. He just choose not to sin.
Also, I realize that you aren't a Christian, it just seemed to be the easiest way to express it where you can understand how Christians look at this, and I hope I accomplished that.
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Oh. Well then why did Jesus had to suffer instead of God using His Power? |
My opinion? Someone had to teach the new ways and that person would naturally been unwelcome. What Jesus was teaching was heresy, blasphemas(?), can't always spell correctly. The high preist liked the way things were. They had the Jews right where they wanted. They were living the life they wanted. They had money and power and didn't want it to change. Then along came Jesus teaching a way that would eliminate the role of the High Preist as the Jews knew it. Plus people, then as well as now, demand proof. Jesus was that proof. He showed that He was the Son of God by overcoming death. If God had just snapped His fingers and changed the whole stucture, I feel He would have been breaking His own rules. He wants us to come to Him because we want to, not because we have to. By changing it that way, that is what it would be like.
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Yes, all people now can have a relationship with God, but it wasn't always like that. But to understand the New Testament, you have to understand the Old Testament. They are both part of the Bible and both are important in our walk with God. And if I state things you already know, please understand I mean no insult, I'm just trying to help you understand where I'm coming from.
The Old Testament is the history of how the world was created as well as the history of the Jews and their walk with God. From the time God set up his covenant with Abraham and his children, you will not read anywhere where God spoke to someone that was not from the seed of Abraham, at least not until you start getting into the New Testament.
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I disagree with you there. An intensive study of the Bible shows the Old Testament was made from four different sources including the E and so on sources. Each tribe was from Judaism but each had its opinions. For example one of the sources made Aaron did all the work and Moses was just a prophet who was terible. But another make it look at though they were a team.
Thus, because the Old Testament was written by the Jews, we have no idea if God spoke to a non-Jew or not. |
You have a valid point as far as the Old Testament being written by the Jews, but since that's what I'm using as my referrence, all I can do is explain what I understand about it.
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Gentiles, during this time frame were considered lower that pond scum. They were nothing. Jews were to have nothing to do with them. A Gentile could join the Jews, but there where things he/she had to do to be adopted into the tribe, and most were not nice at all. As far as being fair, I agree, but that's the way God set it up. He set aside Abraham and his children to be his chosen people, the rest of the people on Earth, from that time until Peter went to Cornelius (New Testament), God had nothing to do with.
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But that means God is unjust and unfair. He choose one group over another. |
Was He actually being unfair or was He getting things ready for later?
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Not really, the average Jew could not have a one on one relationship with God, at least not once the Tabernacle was set up. And you have to remember, we're talking about the Old Testament time, before the time of Jesus' death. There were 3 sections to the Tabernacle: the courtyard, where most offerings were made; the in sanctuary, where the several items were; then you had the Holy of Holy. This is where the Ark of the Covenant sat, and where God lived. God resided in the Holy of Holys and the only person allowed in there was the high priest. There was also a certain order things had to be done in the sactuary, if it was not done correctly, the high priest would die right then and there. And the high priest could only be from the tribe of Levi. This was a harsh time to live. There were certain rules you had to follow, if you broke these rules, most of the time the punishment was death. (There's no other way to say this except it was a very, very barbaric time.)
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I would not call it barbaric. I completely disagree. The arab tribes before Islam was founded, were always avenging death. The Torah gives Laws to stone sometimes. You cannot call something from God, barbaric. Those laws fit in with the culture, and so on. If we applied cutting off the hand for stealing, i think america would loose most of its crimes connected with stealing lol. |
Good point about the stealing. Wonder if we could get our politicians to go for it. lol
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Yes, He actually did, but He overcame death, hell and the grave when he was resurrected. Jesus was without sin until he took our on himself. He never committed a sin, so he became the perfect sacrifice for us.
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But doesn't mean he will go to hell on the Final Day? |
No, not really. He has already been there. While He was dead, He went to hell. That's why the Christians say He overcame death, hell and the grave. These things did not have the power to hold him.
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Please don't take this wrong, but I wish you were here so we could talk in person and you could talk to my father-in-law.
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So do i. Who is he? A priest or a preacher or something? |
Actually, he's my pastor.
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He can explain things so much easier than me. Jesus willingly took on our sins so all man could have a chance to come to God. Now, because of him, we can have a one on one relationship with God. This ability is open to anyone whose willing to do it. It doesn't matter what nationality or background a person has, they are welcome.
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And that is how it is meant to be [/quote]
I just wish more people were willing to look at it this way. Maybe our planet would be a nicer place to live.
Last edited by livilou on Thu Aug 10, 2006 6:27 pm; edited 1 time in total | livilou wrote: |
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thursday day
thursday night........day 0
friday day : Jesus crucified
friday night............day 1
saturday morning
saturday night........day 2
sunday morning : Jesus rose
sunday night..........day 3
monday morning
monday night.........day 4
Well he still rose the wrong time. According to my timetable above Jesus was dead for 2 days, 2 nights. How come Jesus rose early?
Let's look at it this way:
Thursday morning to Friday morning - day 1
Friday morning to Saturday morning - day 2
Saturday morning to Sunday morning - day 3
At least that is how we look upon it. He didn't die that evening, He died i the morning. It didn't take that long for Jesus to die on the cross.
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Jesus was crucified on friday morning. So day one in your timetable does not exist. |
You're correct, and I apologize, I was thinking about something else. Glad I never stated that I was an expert on this. lol Let me get with someone who can explain it better than I, then I'll get back with you on tihs one.
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wasn't it said that he would rise on the third day, not after three days. | Jaiye wrote: |
| livilou wrote: |
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thursday day
thursday night........day 0
friday day : Jesus crucified
friday night............day 1
saturday morning
saturday night........day 2
sunday morning : Jesus rose
sunday night..........day 3
monday morning
monday night.........day 4
Well he still rose the wrong time. According to my timetable above Jesus was dead for 2 days, 2 nights. How come Jesus rose early?
Let's look at it this way:
Thursday morning to Friday morning - day 1
Friday morning to Saturday morning - day 2
Saturday morning to Sunday morning - day 3
At least that is how we look upon it. He didn't die that evening, He died i the morning. It didn't take that long for Jesus to die on the cross.
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Jesus was crucified on friday morning. So day one in your timetable does not exist. |
You're correct, and I apologize, I was thinking about something else. Glad I never stated that I was an expert on this. lol Let me get with someone who can explain it better than I, then I'll get back with you on tihs one.
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wasn't it said that he would rise on the third day, not after three days. |
This goes to show that someone is thinking.
Mt 16:21
From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
Mt 17:23
And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.
Mt 20:19
And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.
Mr 9:31
For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.
Mr 10:34
And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.
Lu 9:22
Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.
Lu 18:33
And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
and the list goes on.
Thanks. | Quote: |
Was he actually willing to die? The Bible doesn't say. All it shows is that he trusted his father, the same way Abraham trusted God.
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Actually he was both unwilling, and willing. When he was going to die. The night before he prayed and begged three times. But when the soldiers came for him, he was calm and did not allow himself to be rescued.
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My opinion? Someone had to teach the new ways and that person would naturally been unwelcome. What Jesus was teaching was heresy, blasphemas(?), can't always spell correctly. The high preist liked the way things were. They had the Jews right where they wanted. They were living the life they wanted. They had money and power and didn't want it to change. Then along came Jesus teaching a way that would eliminate the role of the High Preist as the Jews knew it. Plus people, then as well as now, demand proof. Jesus was that proof. He showed that He was the Son of God by overcoming death. If God had just snapped His fingers and changed the whole stucture, I feel He would have been breaking His own rules. He wants us to come to Him because we want to, not because we have to. By changing it that way, that is what it would be like.
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Yes but sending a prophet does exactly the same thing to a nation. All you need is to send a prophet who tells them they are all hypocrites, and they better follow this new scripture he got from God, and does a few miracles, and the whole thing is sorted. As for the original sin, the Bible says that each person shall die for their own sins. Noone for another person. What is the justice in putting an innocent man to death for the guilty?
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No, not really. He has already been there. While He was dead, He went to hell. That's why the Christians say He overcame death, hell and the grave. These things did not have the power to hold him.
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I do not understand. If Jesus is dead, then we are talking about the divine full power Jesus (according to Christians). Thus he is supposed to be the creator. Thus how can you torture the creator? One of the main points of hell is it is the absence of God. How can god go to hell and experience being cut off from himself? Also why did god go to hell?
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Actually, he's my pastor.
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Coool.
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This goes to show that someone is thinking.
Mt 16:21
From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
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I know some verses say he would rise on the third day. But this verse says he will rise AFTER three days and three nights. The fourth day.
Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
May GOD bless you.Why god should answer for all the prayers, without our prayer also god is giving all the thinks god should know what every given to whom at what time, but we should be patient, when christ is praying to god at that time if christ is not died and he is relevied the bible is not a true one because all the verses are informing as that Chirst will die and came out after 3 days.. so he awake away...........
so when we are praying we should be in patience untill god give to us. because that is the way. we should not put all our angry to god. he will make our life . so that only we are living..
| tamilparks wrote: |
Why god should answer for all the prayers, without our prayer also god is giving all the thinks god should know what every given to whom at what time, but we should be patient, when christ is praying to god at that time if christ is not died and he is relevied the bible is not a true one because all the verses are informing as that Chirst will die and came out after 3 days.. so he awake away...........
so when we are praying we should be in patience untill god give to us. because that is the way. we should not put all our angry to god. he will make our life . so that only we are living.. |
I agree that we should be patient and wait! But I don't agree with you when you said that the bible is not a true one, The Bible is 100% true! There is noting false in it! The Bible is a book of the history of Israel and the book in which all scripture is God breath, which means it has come from God and is true! 
hey whong... you said bible is 100% true.. let me ask you one thing.. don't you think there is not even a single translation mistake in the bible.. If what I heard is correct.. Bible was not written as Bible itself.. all the chapters in the present bible where.. letters, seperate books, or parts of books which existed in different time period.. So.. don't tell me that God put it all together... ofcourse human did.. why did humans selected some letters, and chapters only.. there where other books and even gospels which are excluded from being in the Bible.. WHY.. from which I can understand.. is People put together.. what they like to see together.. and they disregarded what they didn't like... right..? so in conclusion.. you can't say BIble is 100% true... because... what you like is not always the truth.. why catholic bible is different.. if everything in bible is true.. why does there is so much group of christians out there.. pointing towards the same bible..
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Why god should answer for all the prayers, without our prayer also god is giving all the thinks god should know what every given to whom at what time, but we should be patient, when christ is praying to god at that time if christ is not died and he is relevied the bible is not a true one because all the verses are informing as that Chirst will die and came out after 3 days.. so he awake away...........
so when we are praying we should be in patience untill god give to us. because that is the way. we should not put all our angry to god. he will make our life . so that only we are living..
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True, we have to be patience.
But there is also mercy.
Not all the verses say Jesus died.
Here's what i am writing as part of my book:
After Jesus made the above mentioned prayer ("let this cup pass from me"), he was answered by God according to Hebrews 5:7:
7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Analysis:
1-The fact that Jesus feared, means he is not the Creator of the universe. God created the universe and can destroy it. He has nothing to be scared of. If a Christian argues that this is Jesus' human side of him, then he will also be saying that Jesus was not sent to die. This is because if Jesus feared and prayed not to die, he was obviously not sent to die. What sort of person goes on a mission, and then prays he will not go through with the mission. The fact that Jesus is supposed to be a prophet too, means he should never be scared of his mission. Abraham and his son had to go to the sacrifice, and neither of them hesitated. Yet Jesus the prophet, and supposed to be god as well, feared?!
2-These words clearly show when Jesus was praying strongly to God, God granted him his request. The words "heard in that he feared" (Hebrews 5:7) mean that God granted him what he requested. So the above verse shows when Jesus asked of God to "let this cup pass from" (Matthew 26:39) him, God responded to his prayer and saved him from death or crucifixion.
3-In Hebrews 5:8, "yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered ", it does not at all suggest that Jesus died on the cross. Verse 7 clearly says that GOD Almighty heard Jesus' cries. This means that Jesus was maybe put on the cross, but he was never killed on the cross. GOD Almighty heard Jesus' cries, before and during Jesus was getting badly beaten, and before he was put to the cross, GOD Almighty saved him. This would fit in with verse 7, which says Jesus was saved.
Other verses saying Jesus did not die include:
Luke 24
36 While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you."
37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost.
38 He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds?
39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."
40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet.
41And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, "Do you have anything here to eat?"
As you can see, here Jesus greets them (strangely in the Muslim fashion), and then when they think he is dead and a ghost (when you die, you become a ghost/spirit), he said he was not and proved it. Thus he never died. (Note: This in Jesus' own words doubling the proof)
John 20
17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "
Here, you will notice that Jesus says he has not returned to his father. When someone dies, they go to the Creator. Jesus has not returned to God. Thus Jesus never died.
Also interestingly, Jesus says he has not returned to 'my God' which means Jesus has a God. Thus Jesus worships the Lord Almighty! Another statement of monotheism not trinitarian. (Note: This in Jesus' own words doubling the proof)
And Luke 20
34 Jesus replied, "The people of this age marry and are given in marriage.
35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in that age and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage,
36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection.
If Jesus cannot die, how can he be crucified?
If you still believe that he died on the cross, then he was a false prophet and accursed of God according to these passages:
Deuteronomy 13:5: "And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death...";
Deuteronomy 21:22-23: "And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree: His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance."
To believe in his death on the cross is to discredit his prophet-hood. The Jews claimed that they killed Jesus on the cross in order to portray him as a false prophet. Christians believe in the crucifixion, for it is necessary for their doctrine of redemption of sin and, consequently, have to accept the accursedness of Jesus, too. This Christian belief opposes the Bible's teaching in Hosea 6:6:
"For I desired mercy and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings."
It also opposes Jesus' own teaching in Matthew 9:13
"But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice ..."
Again Jesus said in Matthew 12:7:
"But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless."
It was Paul who taught the resurrection: Acts 17:18:
"... And some [Jews] said: 'What will this babbler say?' To others, He [Paul] seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods, because he preached unto them Jesus and the resurrection."
Paul, who never saw Jesus, also admitted that the resurrection was his gospel (II Timothy 2:
:
"Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel."
He was also the first one to declare Jesus the Son of God: Acts 9:20:
"And straightway he [Paul] preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God."
So Christianity (the religion about Jesus) is not a teaching of Jesus but of Paul.
To say he was sacrificed for us, opposes the Bible's teachings:
Hosea6:6
For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.
Matthew 9:13
But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
Matthew 12:7
If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent.
Notice those three verses say that sacrifice is not mercy. 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice'. Thus Jesus dying on the cross as a sacrifice is not merciful at all!Whong said:
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I agree that we should be patient and wait! But I don't agree with you when you said that the bible is not a true one, The Bible is 100% true! There is noting false in it! The Bible is a book of the history of Israel and the book in which all scripture is God breath, which means it has come from God and is true!
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The Bible is corrupt. I can show you by PMs if you want.
E.g. -2 Samuel 10:18
But they fled before Israel, and David killed seven hundred of their charioteers and forty thousand of their foot soldiers. He also struck down Shobach the commander of their army, and he died there.
-1 Chronicles 19:18
But they fled before Israel, and David killed seven thousand of their charioteers and forty thousand of their foot soldiers. He also killed Shophach the commander of their army.
Ezra 2:5 talks about an exile Arah having 775 sons.
Nehemiah 7:10 talks about the same exile Arah having 652 sons. I have not told like that u have mis understand it i told that if Jesus Christ is not come back after 3 days when he died (the bible is false) but now its true................... so that only god will wait..........and he will do his own thing...
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I have not told like that u have mis understand it i told that if Jesus Christ is not come back after 3 days when he died (the bible is false) but now its true................... so that only god will wait..........and he will do his own thing...
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The Bible is false then according to you. Because Jesus rose BEFORE the amount of time set.
Jesus was crucified on friday day.
He rose on sunday day. So that means he was dead friday night, saturday day, saturday night.
He was dead two days, two nights.
This contradicts both verses which also contradict each other:
Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Matthew 16:21
From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
Matthew 12:40 says Jesus will rise after three days and three nights.
Matthew 16:21 says Jesus will rise on the third day.
They contradict each other and when Jesus actually was supposed to have risen.
Jesus rose after two days, two nights.[quote="loyal"]
Yet strangely Jesus prays THREE times, and begs not to die.
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He did not beg to die THREE times. He said "Let this cup pass away from me, but let YOUR will be done, not mine."
[quote="loyal"]Lol. I doubt that very much. I'm not sure about you, but i doubt Jesus would burst into song, inspired by the pain, and almost dead.
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Did I say he burst into song? I said he was praying the psalm that Jews prayed at that hour. And it was a psalm that began with "My God, My God why have you forsaken me" but ends with a declaraction that the one who prays has been vindicated by God.
[quote="loyal"]
I know. And he still rose up wrong.
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Why should you impose your way of calculating the days and the hours? The gospel writers were proclaiming something that was more important: he rose from the dead. You say he rose early. So what? He rose from the dead.
[quote="loyal"]
You avoided the question.
As for 'i am'.
The claim in John 8:56-59 "before Abraham was born, I am" is not the same as "worship me!" The fact that Jesus was present before Abraham is not the same as him saying "worship me!" What then would we say about Solomon Proverbs 8:22-31) and Melchizedec (Hebrews 7:3), who were supposedly present not only before Abraham, but also before all of creation? What about the many others who were either anointed, consecrated or made holy, before their births. (see Ps.89:20, Is. 45:1, 61:1, 1 Sam. 24:6, and Jer.1:5)?
With regard to your comparison of "I am" in the verse of Exodus 3:14 with that of John 8:59, please note that in John 9:9, a beggar who was healed by prophet Jesus used these exact same words used by Jesus ("I am") to refer to himself. We read
"Some said, This is he (the beggar): others [said], He is like him: [but] he said, I am [he]."
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I don't know about you, but if Jesus were God is it necessary that he command anyone to worship Him?
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You never answered my question. You quoted half of it. The question was, if ONLY the father knows, then the holy spirit which has not reduced itself, also does not know. So the trinity is no co-equal.
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I did answer the question, you are just changing questions now. The Trinity is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For Christians, God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
| loyal wrote: |
So nothing happened from the crucifixtion? People still die. |
Jesus says they don't die. They "sleep." | Quote: |
He did not beg to die THREE times. He said "Let this cup pass away from me, but let YOUR will be done, not mine."
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He did pray and beg not to do thrice. Let's review the verses:
Matthew 26:36-44
36. Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, "Sit here while I go over there and pray."
37. He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled.
38. Then he said to them, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me."
39. Going a little farther, he FELL WITH HIS FACE TO THE GROUND AND PRAYED, "My Father, if it is possible, MAY THIS CUP be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."
40. Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. "Could you men not keep watch with me for one hour?" he asked Peter.
41. "Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak."
42. He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."
43. When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy.
44. So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, SAYING THE SAME THING.
Thus he prayed three times. But the important thing is WHAT Jesus prayed.
He said:
"My Father, if it is possible, MAY THIS CUP be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."
Let's analyse this:
"My Father,"
he's addressing God.
"if it is possible"
Jesus is saying if God can...wait a second, God can do ANYTHING. So the prayer will be fulfilled.
"MAY THIS CUP be taken from me"
Jesus wants the cup of death removed. This destroys the idea of Jesus being sent to die.
"Yet not as I will, but as you will".
Not as i want to die, but as you want me to die. That's what he is saying. God wants him to die.
The fact that Jesus begged God not to die because he feared death proves Jesus is not god.
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Did I say he burst into song? I said he was praying the psalm that Jews prayed at that hour. And it was a psalm that began with "My God, My God why have you forsaken me" but ends with a declaraction that the one who prays has been vindicated by God.
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It really does not matter. You know why? Because there is a contradiction.
Here is one gospel:
Matthew 27:
45From the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land. 46About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi,[c] lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"[d]
47When some of those standing there heard this, they said, "He's calling Elijah."
48Immediately one of them ran and got a sponge. He filled it with wine vinegar, put it on a stick, and offered it to Jesus to drink. 49The rest said, "Now leave him alone. Let's see if Elijah comes to save him."
50And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.
Here is another gospel:
John 19:28 Later, knowing that all was now completed, and so that the Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, "I am thirsty."
29A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus' lips.
30When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
Now here is a big contradiction. What happened? Did Jesus cry "why have you forsaken me?" or did he say "it is finished"? A contradiction!
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Why should you impose your way of calculating the days and the hours? The gospel writers were proclaiming something that was more important: he rose from the dead. You say he rose early. So what? He rose from the dead.
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Because it means Jesus lied. He's a liar. That means he is not god. It also means that Jesus rose the wrong day which means he is not god.
Thus because of him rising early, Jesus has proved to us (again), that he is not god. Mark 12:29 also proves this.
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I don't know about you, but if Jesus were God is it necessary that he command anyone to worship Him?
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Yes! What did God say in the Old Testament? Worship God! What does God say in the Qur'an? Worship God!
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I did answer the question, you are just changing questions now. The Trinity is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. For Christians, God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
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No you never answered the question. The question is, why does the holy spirit not know the last hour? Okay even if i am just changing questions, which i am not, answer that. Why does the holy spirit not know? It says the FATHER ONLY! Thus they are not equal. And thus the holy spirit is not god. Because God is All-Knowing.
if you want me to, i can prove to you that the trinity does not exist, by PM.
May God bless you.Sorry my english is not got so only this problems sorry
| livilou wrote: |
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God did not kill Jesus, Jesus gave himself.
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actually all the problem in here
when is the power of God starts and ends.
when is the power of Jesus starts and ends.
if you give deity to 2 or 3 different objects
you can not solve the problem
deity requires to be unique | Quote: |
actually all the problem in here
when is the power of God starts and ends.
when is the power of Jesus starts and ends.
if you give deity to 2 or 3 different objects
you can not solve the problem
deity requires to be unique |
There is no division between the two. Jesus and God are the same. The only difference is that Jesus was God's Spirit in human form. Just like when you have children it takes on some of your genes, so to did Jesus. His mother was Mary, His Father was God. It's God's Spirit that does all the healing and miracles, Jesus' body is just the housing of that Spirit. When I worship, I do not see 2 or 3 different objects, I see only one, Jesus (God made flesh), the Holy Ghost (God's Spirit in us), and God. It is not 3 separate beings but one in different forms.If there is no division, how come Jesus sits at the right hand of God?
The term at the right hand of God points to his exalted position he now is active in. The phrase right hand is a figurative expression of a literal event. God exercises his authority by his right hand. It is not the literal right hand, it represents power and authority.
To help you, I have found some references to show what I mean.
http://www.keytotheendtimerevival.com/therighthandofgod.html
http://www.biblemeanings.info/Words/Body/Right_hand.htm
http://www.altupc.com/articles/rh.htm Actually my point still stands. Jesus is not god because he sits at the right hand of God's throne. If they are in two different positions then they are not the same being. The Bible talks about seats, not power.
Even if it was about authority, the Bible clearly says all authority was GIVEN to Jesus, yet another reason why Jesus is not god.
I realize many have answered your questions but I will answer myself as well. The first question you had is a easy answer. Jesus asked him if ti was possible to take the cup from him, however the part I think you missed is that Jesus also said that if this be Gods will then let it be. Jesus was saying that He prefer that if there is another way to do it that way but if this is what must be done that He would do it. God did not ignore his prayer it was simply that this is what must be done.
For your second question Jesus is speaking of the fact that God has let his presence be with Jesus all His life. Until this point when God took his presence from Jesus so that He could take on the sins of the world. Jesus was asking why God left his presence. I beleive it was he was not really asking a question but expressing the abandonment of God and how the sins of the world bore down on Him.
I do not have a answer for your third question because I do not have a scripture to go by nor do I recall someone named jonus perhaps you mean mean jonah who was in the whale for 3 days and 3 nights. But for your fourth question. If you take a egg and crack it you have 3 parts the shell the yoke and the yellow. Three very diff parts but together it is a egg. What you must consider is that the trinity is part of a timeline. This of course is only my theory and is not based off scripture. In the beginning you had God. He talked to people thru burning bushes and what not. If you take todays tech advances that sort of thing would be out of place. So in todays time we have the Holy Spirit. God decided to have Christ do what he did at a certain time so that the transition would go correctly.
For your last question I want to try to explain in another way. So bear with me please. My answer may not seem to pertain to your question at first but it will in the end.
Imagine you are God and you are going to make the human race. Now you decide that these humans will be perfect. Which comes along with freewill. I know alot of people turn and run at that word but please continue to read. If we did not have freewill then we would simply be robots. Which always makes me laugh when people say God only created us so we could serve Him. If that were true we would have no freewill.
So here is Gods problem. How does he make this perfect utopia with these perfect humans if they have freewill. With freewill comes the fact that we are capable of sin without knowing what sin is. That was proven with the tree of good and evil. He told them not to eat from it and they did creating the first sin.
So if we are capable of sin with knowing it then the world could not be perfect. Also considering the tree of life, how long would it take for someone to get the idea to take control of it. So frankly there is no way to create a perfect race within a perfect world. So what is Gods plan now.
He offers it to us in Heaven with a very simple way to get there. But the answer to your question is that we will reap the benefits of Christ when we get to heaven. not while we are still in this pretrial earth.
Loyal, how are you buddy? You have some doozy questions here my man. Let’s see if I can cast a little light.
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| 1) God killed Jesus in the crucifications when He could have easily used His All-Powerfulness to forgive sins, and did not answer his prayers despite him praying all night long. |
Jesus never asked His Father to save Him from the death on the cross. He asked if there was any other way He could complete His mission. Matt 26;29 "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will." Matt 26;42 "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."
The cup is a metaphor for His mission. Let’s have a closer look at the mission. Why does the Father need someone to be tortured to death if He could just snap His fingers and fix things. You must have heard that YAHWE is a just God, right. Being just means that you live by the same laws that you put into the universe in order to govern it right? That means that if He bent the rules He would be sinning.
OK. So here comes Adam and causes the fall of man, that’s a whole different story. But the point is that he was a man (human being). Here comes Jesus (at the appointed time) also a human being according to all the rules, but He lives a life without sin, (the virgin birth indicates that He cannot even inherit His father’s sin {technically Joseph}). Now someone needs to be punished for Adam’s sin that essentially has the same status as Adam right? This original sin needs to be put right in order to fix the ‘fall of man’ problem and the only one qualified is Jesus. Jesus knows what is going on Matt 26; 31Then Jesus told them, "This very night you will all fall away on account of me, for it is written:
" 'I will strike the shepherd,
and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.” He obviously wasn’t looking forward to being tortured that’s why he asked if there wasn’t another way the ‘cup’ could be dealt with.
By dying, Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the law that make it possible for humans to have the relationship with YAHWE that He intended to have with us from the beginning.
Does that answer it for you brother? I’ll come and tackle these other questions when I’ve regained a little energy. | loyal wrote: |
Actually my point still stands. Jesus is not god because he sits at the right hand of God's throne. If they are in two different positions then they are not the same being. The Bible talks about seats, not power.
Even if it was about authority, the Bible clearly says all authority was GIVEN to Jesus, yet another reason why Jesus is not god. |
HI guys.. Im new here.. my first language is not English, so sorry for the mistakes....
Im a Christian...
About this topic:
There are some things that can not understand completely with our human minds.. specially things from Heaven...
The Bible says that God is: The Father, the Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit, they are three and ONE at the same time... "Three and one at the same time" is something that doesn´t fit in our little human minds, the understanding that we have as human beings is too little, and GOD is not limited by our understanding. And many thing we have to accept by FAITH, that the key of our relationship with GOD.
Why muslims believe in allah and muhamed if you have never seen them???
If we read a bit of history, we can see that muhamed was just a simple man, involved in some business, and that after getting married he wanted to create his own religion, thinking that he received some visions and messages from a god...
So, the whole koran begins there, how can people believe in something that just a person started...
The bible has many connections in the time, God used many people that didn´t know each other, and that was not in contact with each other for giving us the Bible. | molinas wrote: |
There are some things that can not understand completely with our human minds.. specially things from Heaven...
The Bible says that God is: The Father, the Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit, they are three and ONE at the same time... "Three and one at the same time" is something that doesn´t fit in our little human minds, the understanding that we have as human beings is too little, and GOD is not limited by our understanding. And many thing we have to accept by FAITH, that the key of our relationship with GOD.
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Hey molinas I get totally what you’re saying about the mysteries of the Bible, but about the trinity, here’s a way you might want to look at it. Think about a tungsten light bulb, the Father is the wire, the Holy Spirit is the electricity and the Son is the light. A bit simplistic but yet effective no? | DavidkChase wrote: |
| I realize many have answered your questions but I will answer myself as well. The first question you had is a easy answer. Jesus asked him if ti was possible to take the cup from him, however the part I think you missed is that Jesus also said that if this be Gods will then let it be. Jesus was saying that He prefer that if there is another way to do it that way but if this is what must be done that He would do it. God did not ignore his prayer it was simply that this is what must be done. |
Jesus was asking for another way. But he agreed to do what God willed.
You did not answer my question.
God killed Jesus in the crucifications when He could have easily used His All-Powerfulness to forgive sins, and did not answer his prayers despite him praying all night long.
Why didn't God use another painless way?
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For your second question Jesus is speaking of the fact that God has let his presence be with Jesus all His life. Until this point when God took his presence from Jesus so that He could take on the sins of the world. Jesus was asking why God left his presence. I beleive it was he was not really asking a question but expressing the abandonment of God and how the sins of the world bore down on Him.
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If Jesus was truly sent to die, he would have no questions. Plus even Abraham, who sinned and therfore did not feel God's prescence, did not hesistate.
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But for your fourth question. If you take a egg and crack it you have 3 parts the shell the yoke and the yellow. Three very diff parts but together it is a egg. What you must consider is that the trinity is part of a timeline. This of course is only my theory and is not based off scripture. In the beginning you had God. He talked to people thru burning bushes and what not. If you take todays tech advances that sort of thing would be out of place. So in todays time we have the Holy Spirit. God decided to have Christ do what he did at a certain time so that the transition would go correctly.
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the trinity does not fit with the egg. This is because Jesus is supposed to be a 100percent god (and human). Therefore if Jesus is the shell, then the shell is the egg. This is wrong.
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For your last question I want to try to explain in another way. So bear with me please. My answer may not seem to pertain to your question at first but it will in the end.
Imagine you are God and you are going to make the human race. Now you decide that these humans will be perfect. Which comes along with freewill. I know alot of people turn and run at that word but please continue to read. If we did not have freewill then we would simply be robots. Which always makes me laugh when people say God only created us so we could serve Him. If that were true we would have no freewill.
So here is Gods problem. How does he make this perfect utopia with these perfect humans if they have freewill. With freewill comes the fact that we are capable of sin without knowing what sin is. That was proven with the tree of good and evil. He told them not to eat from it and they did creating the first sin.
So if we are capable of sin with knowing it then the world could not be perfect. Also considering the tree of life, how long would it take for
someone to get the idea to take control of it. So frankly there is no way to create a perfect race within a perfect world. So what is Gods plan now.
He offers it to us in Heaven with a very simple way to get there. But the answer to your question is that we will reap the benefits of Christ when we get to heaven. not while we are still in this pretrial earth.
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That is not what i asked. I asked why has God not removed the punishments of the first sin?
may God bless you. | Rico wrote: |
| molinas wrote: |
There are some things that can not understand completely with our human minds.. specially things from Heaven...
The Bible says that God is: The Father, the Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit, they are three and ONE at the same time... "Three and one at the same time" is something that doesn´t fit in our little human minds, the understanding that we have as human beings is too little, and GOD is not limited by our understanding. And many thing we have to accept by FAITH, that the key of our relationship with GOD.
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Hey molinas I get totally what you’re saying about the mysteries of the Bible, but about the trinity, here’s a way you might want to look at it. Think about a tungsten light bulb, the Father is the wire, the Holy Spirit is the electricity and the Son is the light. A bit simplistic but yet effective no? |
WE are the wire. we must be the conductors of the Holy Spirit ourselves. Jesus was in-tune with the Holy Spirit. He was a conductor. He was a wire.
The end result is light. We must know the God and the Holy Spirit. They are the electricity. Jesus was our lead conducting wire. Now we must try to conduct this electricity of the Holy Spirit by knowing God so that we can beam light from our bulb... planet Earth.I mean no disrespect in this statement, but it seems that no matter what we say, you won't agree. I've seen it explained in as simple terms as possible and you just won't see it.
God did not kill Jesus.
Yes, God could have just spoken the words and changed everything, but that is not how He wanted it done.
Let's look at the titles Jesus was given while he was here.
The Son of God
John 1:49 (King James Version)
Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
The Lamb of God
John 1:29 (King James Version)
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
The Light of the World
John 8:12 (King James Version)
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
The Bread of God
John 6:32-33 (King James Version)
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
The True Light
John 1:8-9 (King James Version)
That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
The True Vine
John 15:1 (King James Version)
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
The Word
John 1:14 (King James Version)
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
The Way, The Truth, and The Life
John 14:6 (King James Version)
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
I would keep on, but I already know that you'll have some reason that I'm wrong in how I see this. Which is fine.
I hope you have a great day and God bless.
Well, youre not christian arent you...dont look for answers upon the interent, its good to ask fellow people who are christians those questions, err, well i think. but anyways just look real hard and you wont need an answer. FAITH!
Personaly, I have a hard time beliving that an all loving God would command that adulterers be stoned (see the Old Testament, probably Leviticus) then go and Get Another Man's Wife Pregnant!
If he needed a son, he sould have found His own wife to knock up.
Also, if the Bible was written by God (one point of view) then why are there three Different versions of this one sentence:
"Take this cup from me, if it be thy will." (see earlier post with the quotes from Mathew, Mark, and Luke).
Archaeological evedence shows that all of the books of the New Testiment were written at least two generations after Christ's death. Supposedly one of them was written by a woman. (I'll look for the refernce and try to post it tomorrow if I can find it.)
Then, there is the Magdaline. She was supposedly as much a part of J.'s following as any of the Males in his entourage, why isn't she considered an Apostle?
The Bible was changed by a council of men (Wyrms, Nicea, don't recall at the moment). Men decided what books to include, and which to call heresy. If it was all Holy Writ from the hand of God, how did these men have the authority to decide what would stay and what would go?
What about the Gospel of Judas? If Judas was best loved among the Apostles, and his actions were part of the plan of God (I mean, how would the crusifiction have happened if Someone hadn't pointed out J. to the Romans? God apparently needed it to happen, so why is Judas vilified when he was so importaint to the Plan?) Why was that Gospel excluded from all the rest?
Why would a Loving god allow there to be ANY imbiguity in his word. If you, as a loving parent, want your child to grow up to be a good person, are you going to give them a bunch of rules that are open to interpretation, or are you going to be certain that they understand your meaning?
| Rico wrote: |
Loyal, how are you buddy? You have some doozy questions here my man. Let’s see if I can cast a little light.
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i'm fine buddy. you?
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Jesus never asked His Father to save Him from the death on the cross. He asked if there was any other way He could complete His mission. Matt 26;29 "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will." Matt 26;42 "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."
The cup is a metaphor for His mission. Let’s have a closer look at the mission. Why does the Father need someone to be tortured to death if He could just snap His fingers and fix things. You must have heard that YAHWE is a just God, right. Being just means that you live by the same laws that you put into the universe in order to govern it right? That means that if He bent the rules He would be sinning.
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You deny what i said, then confirm it...
Listen the cup is a metaphor for death. The cup of death. The 'torture' as you call it. The crucifixation is the cup.
Jesus asks for this cup to be taken away. So this means he does not want to be crucified.
God is All-Knowing. He can find a way around the Laws.
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OK. So here comes Adam and causes the fall of man, that’s a whole different story. But the point is that he was a man (human being). Here comes Jesus (at the appointed time) also a human being according to all the rules, but He lives a life without sin, (the virgin birth indicates that He cannot even inherit His father’s sin {technically Joseph}).
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Not true. Jesus is still dirty.
4-Job 25:4-6
4 How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?
5 Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight.
6 How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?
Man born from a woman and Son of man are nothing but despicable and worthless "worm" (Job 25:4-6 above)! Yet, Jesus was born from a woman, was a man, and was also called "son of man":
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Now someone needs to be punished for Adam’s sin that essentially has the same status as Adam right?
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Wrong. Each person is punished for their own sins.
Deuteronomy 24:16 "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their fathers; a person shall be put to death for his own sin."
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. Ezekiel 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Clearly the soul that sins shall die. Clearly, no one shall bear the iniquity (sins) of others. So Jesus cannot bear the sins of others either. If one is righteous then it shall be upon him, and if one commits a sin then it shall be upon him, and not on Jesus. Thus there is no original sin from Adam and Eve. Each soul shall bear its punishment.
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This original sin needs to be put right in order to fix the ‘fall of man’ problem and the only one qualified is Jesus. Jesus knows what is going on Matt 26; 31Then Jesus told them, "This very night you will all fall away on account of me, for it is written:
" 'I will strike the shepherd,
and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.” He obviously wasn’t looking forward to being tortured that’s why he asked if there wasn’t another way the ‘cup’ could be dealt with.
By dying, Jesus fulfilled the requirements of the law that make it possible for humans to have the relationship with YAHWE that He intended to have with us from the beginning.
Does that answer it for you brother? I’ll come and tackle these other questions when I’ve regained a little energy. |
Sorry it doesn't answer it for me.
may God bless you., | molinas wrote: |
HI guys.. Im new here.. my first language is not English, so sorry for the mistakes....
Im a Christian...
About this topic:
There are some things that can not understand completely with our human minds.. specially things from Heaven...
The Bible says that God is: The Father, the Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit, they are three and ONE at the same time...
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No it does not. It has never said that.
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"Three and one at the same time" is something that doesn´t fit in our little human minds, the understanding that we have as human beings is too little, and GOD is not limited by our understanding. And many thing we have to accept by FAITH, that the key of our relationship with GOD.
Why muslims believe in allah and muhamed if you have never seen them???
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Because of proof. Unlike Christianity, Islam holds strong over the attacks it recieves. The Qur'an has no contradictions. The history is clear and simple.
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If we read a bit of history, we can see that muhamed was just a simple man, involved in some business, and that after getting married he wanted to create his own religion, thinking that he received some visions and messages from a god...
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Not true. He did not want to create his own religion. Infact if you read the history he was at first very scared. Then he later viewed himself as the latest in line as a prophet to the people of Mecca. Then later he viewed himself as the last prophet and the prophet to the arabs.
And by the way this 'a god' is YHWH. Allah is YHWH. The links are there. Just do the research.
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So, the whole koran begins there, how can people believe in something that just a person started...
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The same can be argued against Paul. He was just some random guy who halluncinated and told people to do what he said.
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The bible has many connections in the time, God used many people that didn´t know each other, and that was not in contact with each other for giving us the Bible. |
Which makes the Bible even more hugely flawed. Which commandment do you follow? The one in this book or that book?
may God bless you.Hi there! Interesting qustions in a time when just a few christians dig deep into their bibles in order to consider these things. Thanks 'loyal'!
(English is not my mother tonge, so please be patient)
I have read some of the posts and here is some thougts (i hope)...
1) Jesus could have turned away from the way up to Calvary, but he wanted to follow his mission fully. The wages of sin is death, but Jesus had no sin in his life, not even one trace of an evil thougt. A false prophet had to be killed, and in fact many real prophets had been stoned in the OT times, but Israel did not recognize them as prophets, neither did they receive Christ as Messiah. False prophets they did recieve gladly.
Every man has sinned and are at the same level in front of God. Breaking one commandmend you have broken the whole law. Therefore our world is sinful because of us, and we have much pain, meaninglessness, loneliness, sickness and so on. The famous problem of suffering is in fact no problem, becuase we have caused the problems. God has the solution but we are blind, unless Christ takes the scales away from our eyes. The final destination of a sinner is a prison in a dark place because God can't live where there is sin. Still he cares about a proud sinner, becasue he loves filthy rags who has nothing to hide or defend. Now we will get into the blood.
Heb. 9:22 "And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission."
It's simple. Blood is necessary for forgiveness. Without blood there can be no forgiveness. Christ gave his life for our redemption. Hebrews puts it plainly (chapter 9):
"11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood."
Might be you don't understand the meaning of all these things, because it's nothing else than foolishness for the world, just bullshit in plain language. But for believers it is a power unto salvation and eternal life. If God reveals you sins, pray that he will forgive you and you will inherit eternal life. Then you will meet Him, talk to Him and He will talk to you - a relationship? Yes, indeed. You don't any longer pray to a dead god that seems to be angry at you when you do a tiny mistake or missed the morning prayer. That's the difference between religion and being a disciple of Jesus. Religion is based upon good deeds, but God wants us just as we are (I am a looser and an hmm.. ****** in my self, there is nothing good with me). But God planted his faith in my heart and Christ begun to live inside me. Therefore the old ****** is dead whith Jesus on the cross and Christ is resurrected in me. Therefore no longer I live, but Christ in me. He is without sin, righteous, pleasing God in all. I am without condemnation because I am a dead man! My new identity is Jesus Christ and therefore I can live with God, without sin. And I will be with my Creator for ever!
Please meditate upon John 3:16 and ask God what He meant by that verse. Then read the whole chapter of Isaiah 53 and you might have a bit more to think about.
The other questions I might try to answer later.
| loyal wrote: |
i'm fine buddy. you?
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Jesus never asked His Father to save Him from the death on the cross. He asked if there was any other way He could complete His mission. Matt 26;29 "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will." Matt 26;42 "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."
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You deny what i said, then confirm it...
Listen the cup is a metaphor for death. The cup of death. The 'torture' as you call it. The crucifixation is the cup.
Jesus asks for this cup to be taken away. So this means he does not want to be crucified.
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I'm very well thanks.
Your entire argument is based on only a portion of the statement. It’s like interpreting “can we do this differently, obviously not” as “we have to do this differently”.
You make it sound like he was asking for a loaf of bread and the Father denied him, it was his purpose to die, it was the plan all along, the salvation plan. He dies and then He’s resurrected, we make him our savior and his punishment, death and resurrection become our punishment, death and resurrection. That is what salvation means, we know were sinners but in Jesus out spirit has already been judged, put to death and raised from the dead. It’s the pivotal difference between Christianity and all other faiths; it has a legitimate mechanism through which salvation can be activated. There would be absolutely no purpose for Jesus to become a man otherwise.
Listen to the words more carefully, He doesn’t say “I don’t want to die”, he’s saying this is going to be nasty and he doesn’t look forward to it, is there no other way? But he already knows the answer to the question and in the same breath he says “Your will be done” (“this is what I was sent for, lets get it on”).
I honestly think you choose to misinterpret these scriptures they are not that difficult to understand.NOBODY CAN BEAR THE PUNISHMENTS FOR OTHER PEOPLE'S SINS. EITHER YOU GET YOUR SINS FORGIVEN BY THE SUPREME SOUL OR YOU DON'T... THERE IS NO BUSINESS OF SHARING OR ME TAKING YOUR PUNISHMENT FOR YOUR SINS.. EVEN WHEN GOD TAKES THE FORM OF HUMAN AND COME TO SAVE US.. HE/SHE FORGIVE OUR SINS HE DOESN'T TAKE IT FOR US..
