FRIHOST • FORUMS • FAQ • TOS • BLOGS • DIRECTORY
You are invited to Log in or Register a Frihost Account!

questions for Christians

   Frihost Forum Index -> Lifestyle and News -> Philosophy and Religion
 


loyal
Hello everyone.

While searching the internet and reading the Bible i have come across some questions, which i hope you Christians can answer:

1) God killed Jesus in the crucifications when He could have easily used His All-Powerfulness to forgive sins, and did not answer his prayers despite him praying all night long.
Matthew 26:39, Mark 14:36, and Luke 22:42.

Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Matthew 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Why did God not answer Jesus' prayers not to die?

2) When Abraham was told by God to sacrifice his son, his son did not object or question him, if Jesus was sent to be sacrificed for our sins, why would he question God?

"Eloih, Eloih, why have you forsaken me?"

Could this not come from someone other than Jesus? Even a Non Prophet would smile at agony as he knew that his death would win him the title of martyr.

3) Why did Jesus rise up on the wrong day?
Jesus was asked for a miracle. Instead of saying "look at that dead man who rose", he said something like "three days and three nights i will be like Jonus". Except for this: he rose in the morning. That means he rose a night earlier. How could this happen?

4) How can Jesus be god, if he was given all authority and power?

-Luke 7:8
For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and that one, 'Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it."
The soldier is saying he is like Jesus.

-Matthew 28:18
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Given to him? Jesus cannot be god. God is not given anything.
So before Jesus was given authority, what was he? If Jesus is co equal with the Father then who gave the Father this authority? Plus why would Jesus need the Father to give him the authority? Couldn't the godly nature of Jesus given it to his man nature?

5) Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

This verse has always been brought up to prove that Jesus himself is not God since he is not all-knowing. Christians have countered this argument by claiming that Jesus as man did not know the hour, but in his divine state he did know the hour.

However so, what about the Holy Spirit? Jesus claims that no one but the Father knows the last hour, this means the Holy Spirit does not know the last hour neither! Hence the Holy Spirit is not God because it is not all-knowing. The Holy Spirit was not a God-man like Jesus, the Holy Spirit never limited himself like Jesus, so what possible explanation could the Christian give? Why isnt the Holy Spirit all-knowing? Why didnt Jesus say the only one who knows the last hour is the Holy Spirit and the Father only?

Note what Jesus said:

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only

Jesus says that ONLY THE FATHER knows, this means that not even the divine Jesus knows! If you say that ONLY this person knows something, then it excludes everyone else. So hence the fact that Jesus said ONLY my Father means that even the divine Jesus doesnt know the last hour, if the divine Jesus knows the last hour then Jesus was wrong when he said that ONLY the Father knows.

6) What was the point of the crucification? Jesus never wiped the sins off mankind because the women even nowadays suffer pains during labor and the man eats the fruits of his labor/ toil. It was an important indication for the redemption of the sins, that at least the Christian women should not suffer pain during labor and Christian men should not have to work hard to earn their bread.
The pains and the sufferings are still there. So the punishment of the original sin of Adam and Eve is still very much there.

Thanks.
We r the SYC
For ur first point......., u obviously or so it sounds NOT read the bible but merely selected confusing bits of it for argument, but remmember the Penilty for sin is Death by the law of God, Jesus vollenteerd to die insted of us sinners, so we might be forgiven.

for the second, u must remmber Jesus altho the Son of God in human form is still a MAN, possably fear made him question God, but he still having all the power of God u speak of, choose to give it all up and Die anyway.

for the third, wrong day........, i dont remmber anything about 3 days AND 3 NIGHTS, i notice u dident quote the scripture to base that fact on.

fourth, why not? Having power isent the same as showing off power.
now remember Jesus is a human, he wasent borning knowing he was God, because he is not God, he is the Son of God... therefore God gave him all power and authority,

number 5...., interesting idea i havent encounted nefore...., supposedly Jesus will return to earth in the end....so im assuimng he will know the time...., but really dose it matter if jesus knows or not?

6th..., ah now Forgivness is NOT the same as removing sin from the world..., its there and God wont remove it untill the end.... by removing sin for the world it would cross God "freewill" policy lol, as for anly christians, why should we get special treatment, we are still as able to sin as anyone else..., satan is still battling God on earth and elsewhere....., so sin or evil is still very much here.

as i sed earlyer, "The wages of Sin is Death", Jesus stepped in and died insted of us, for the entire world...., Dieing and Going to hell for the time he was dead...., Wink
ranciel
Wow. That's a really long post with extremely tough questions. Heh. But it's great you're asking questions. Smile

I don't know everything, but I'll try to answer some as best as I can.

1) Why did God not answer Jesus' prayer not to die?

Sometimes when we pray, we don't get the desired result. But that does not mean God is not listening or God does not answer our prayers. Sometimes it just means "no". Christians live by faith that whatever God allows to happen is for the better. And whatever God disallows is for the better as well. I always tell God, "Let Thy Will be done." Christians are placed here to do God's Will. We're His instruments on earth. We're supposed to bring God to other people by being Christ-like ourselves.

So, when God allowed Jesus to die (not like He enjoyed seeing His only Son die), he did it because it had to happen. God had to show something. If Jesus did not die, I'm not sure if His teachings would live till now. Many people know Jesus by the fact that He was the Son of God who was crucified. People remember things that way.

2) Abraham has been known as the man of great faith because of this incident. And all Christians are called to be like him - to put all our trust in God that all things are possible with Him around and that He would make everything beautiful. Everyone is capable of such faith, even people (non-prophets) today.

3) I don't know how to answer this. :X

4/5) Jesus is the Son of God and He co-exists with God even today. All three persons in the Holy Trinity are equal, but they have different tasks at hand. Jesus is our link to God the Father, since he became man and lived amongst us. The Holy Spirit is our link to be like Jesus, Christ-like. That's how I see it.

6) Jesus died to deliver us from sin, so that we could enter heaven and enjoy eternal life with God. But God did not say after Jesus died, suffering would stop. He simply promised eternal life, not end of suffering. God allows sufferings, not because He is a sadist, but because sufferings are essential. Imagine life a bed of roses. Then who needs faith? No one. Only through suffering, do we grow and mature. Only through suffering, do we learn from our mistakes. Only through suffering, do we finally understand what happiness is.

God created each and every one of us in His own image. In times of sufferings, if we can still see God in our neighbours, we have attained that level of spiritual maturity.

-- All these are just my own opinions. I may be wrong. But I hope this helps you at least a little. Wink
loyal
[quote=We r the SYC]
For ur first point......., u obviously or so it sounds NOT read the bible but merely selected confusing bits of it for argument, but remmember the Penilty for sin is Death by the law of God, Jesus vollenteerd to die insted of us sinners, so we might be forgiven.
[/quote]

Yes the penalty for sin is death. But God invented something called forgiveness where he gives you another chance. What is the point of Jesus? Especially if people will still go to hell?

Quote:

for the second, u must remmber Jesus altho the Son of God in human form is still a MAN, possably fear made him question God, but he still having all the power of God u speak of, choose to give it all up and Die anyway.


Abraham's son was human too. Pure human. He and Abraham went to sacrifice, without hesitation. How come Jesus with being partly/wholly divine, be scared?

Quote:

for the third, wrong day........, i dont remmber anything about 3 days AND 3 NIGHTS, i notice u dident quote the scripture to base that fact on.


It is in the Bible:
Matthew 12:38 Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, "Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you."

39He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Notice it says "none" shall be given "EXCEPT" the sign of Jonah. So if this fails, then Jesus could never convince the Jews with his one sign.

"so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights"

So Jesus would stay dead for three days and three nights? Nope, he rose a night early.

Quote:

fourth, why not? Having power isent the same as showing off power.
now remember Jesus is a human, he wasent borning knowing he was God, because he is not God, he is the Son of God... therefore God gave him all power and authority,


But Christians say Jesus is god? How can god give himself power?

Quote:

number 5...., interesting idea i havent encounted nefore...., supposedly Jesus will return to earth in the end....so im assuimng he will know the time...., but really dose it matter if jesus knows or not?


No it does not matter if Jesus knows. It matters if the holy spirit knows. Obviously from the verse he does not, and thus the trinity is not co-equal.

Quote:

6th..., ah now Forgivness is NOT the same as removing sin from the world..., its there and God wont remove it untill the end.... by removing sin for the world it would cross God "freewill" policy lol, as for anly christians, why should we get special treatment, we are still as able to sin as anyone else..., satan is still battling God on earth and elsewhere....., so sin or evil is still very much here.as i sed earlyer, "The wages of Sin is Death", Jesus stepped in and died insted of us, for the entire world...., Dieing and Going to hell for the time he was dead....


I do not agree. Jesus died for our sins, Christians say. All our sins were removed. So why are the punishments for the sins there? The original sin has been removed. Why are the symptons for it still there? When you remove most illnesses you do not stay ill.

You did not answer my questions...
loyal
Quote:

wow. That's a really long post with extremely tough questions. Heh. But it's great you're asking questions. Smile


Thanks. Cool name. I like ranciel.

Quote:

I don't know everything, but I'll try to answer some as best as I can.

1) Why did God not answer Jesus' prayer not to die?

Sometimes when we pray, we don't get the desired result. But that does not mean God is not listening or God does not answer our prayers. Sometimes it just means "no". Christians live by faith that whatever God allows to happen is for the better. And whatever God disallows is for the better as well. I always tell God, "Let Thy Will be done." Christians are placed here to do God's Will. We're His instruments on earth. We're supposed to bring God to other people by being Christ-like ourselves.

So, when God allowed Jesus to die (not like He enjoyed seeing His only Son die), he did it because it had to happen. God had to show something. If Jesus did not die, I'm not sure if His teachings would live till now. Many people know Jesus by the fact that He was the Son of God who was crucified. People remember things that way.


So the answer is no? Well i suppose that can happen. But what about these verses?

Matthew 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:03 pm Post subject: questions for Christians
Hello everyone.

While searching the internet and reading the Bible i have come across some questions, which i hope you Christians can answer:

1) God killed Jesus in the crucifications when He could have easily used His All-Powerfulness to forgive sins, and did not answer his prayers despite him praying all night long.
Matthew 26:39, Mark 14:36, and Luke 22:42.

Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Matthew 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

Quote:

2) Abraham has been known as the man of great faith because of this incident. And all Christians are called to be like him - to put all our trust in God that all things are possible with Him around and that He would make everything beautiful. Everyone is capable of such faith, even people (non-prophets) today.


I do not understand how a man could be better than Jesus who is supposed to be god as well as man put together.

Quote:

3) I don't know how to answer this. :X


That's okay.

Quote:

4/5) Jesus is the Son of God and He co-exists with God even today. All three persons in the Holy Trinity are equal, but they have different tasks at hand. Jesus is our link to God the Father, since he became man and lived amongst us. The Holy Spirit is our link to be like Jesus, Christ-like. That's how I see it.


Hmmm i understand your explanation for four, but for five, how can the trinity be equal if the holy spirit does not know the Last Hour? Surely their knowledge is equal?

Quote:

6) Jesus died to deliver us from sin, so that we could enter heaven and enjoy eternal life with God. But God did not say after Jesus died, suffering would stop. He simply promised eternal life, not end of suffering. God allows sufferings, not because He is a sadist, but because sufferings are essential. Imagine life a bed of roses. Then who needs faith? No one. Only through suffering, do we grow and mature. Only through suffering, do we learn from our mistakes. Only through suffering, do we finally understand what happiness is.


But i thought the reason why the suffering was there was for the original sin, which was abolished with Jesus. So surely the suffering should disappear because the cause of the illness has gone? But i suppose suffering is a good way to mature. It sort of increases your faith in God by making you more desperate for Him, doesn't it?

Quote:

God created each and every one of us in His own image. In times of sufferings, if we can still see God in our neighbours, we have attained that level of spiritual maturity.

-- All these are just my own opinions. I may be wrong. But I hope this helps you at least a little.


It helps a bit thanks.
kcw1304
OK, Here are my thoughts on these questions..

1) Why did God not answer Jesus' prayer not to die?

Jesus' main purpose in coming to earth was to come as a perfect sacrifice for our sins. This ties back to the old testament- people in the old testament offered animal sacrifices for their sins; the animals had to be perfect and without blemish.

In the same way, Jesus came as the ultimate sacrifice, lived a perfect, sinless life and was killed as atonement for our sins.

Back to the answering prayer issue, Jesus's prayer was not that he wouldn't be crucified, it was that he wouldn't be crucified IF it was God's will.
Matthew 26:39

39Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will." (The other 2 verses are similar)

And it obviously wasn't God's for Jesus not to die will since he did-- God loves people and wanted to give his son so that we can be forgiven. In conclusion, God did answer his prayer by carrying out His plan for Jesus to be crucified for our sins.
kcw1304
Quote:
2) When Abraham was told by God to sacrifice his son, his son did not object or question him, if Jesus was sent to be sacrificed for our sins, why would he question God?

"Eloih, Eloih, why have you forsaken me?"

Could this not come from someone other than Jesus? Even a Non Prophet would smile at agony as he knew that his death would win him the title of martyr.


I don't really understand the second part of your question, but I will address the first part..

Abraham was definitely a great man of faith, but God was with him. When Jesus was on the cross he had to bear the the punishment for sin, which is separation from God. So when he was up on the cross dying he was separated from God, God had abandoned him so that he would not have to abondon us because of our sin. Because of this and the fact that Jesus was human, is why he questioned God.
kcw1304
Question 3 I think has been well addressed already by We r the SYC

Quote:
4) How can Jesus be god, if he was given all authority and power?

-Luke 7:8
For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and that one, 'Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it."
The soldier is saying he is like Jesus.

The centurion is just making a statement of faith.. I believe you can control demons and sickness, etc like I can control my soldiers and servants. I don't see what this has to do with the question..

Quote:
-Matthew 28:18
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Given to him? Jesus cannot be god. God is not given anything.
So before Jesus was given authority, what was he? If Jesus is co equal with the Father then who gave the Father this authority? Plus why would Jesus need the Father to give him the authority? Couldn't the godly nature of Jesus given it to his man nature?


This is related to the issue of the trinity which I'm not going to attempt to debate.. I think the verse is referring to God giving Jesus authority while he's on earth, or it could be Jesus' godly nature giving him the authority. The verse doesn't explicitly say (that I see) who or what gave him the authority.
kcw1304
Quote:
5) Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

This verse has always been brought up to prove that Jesus himself is not God since he is not all-knowing. Christians have countered this argument by claiming that Jesus as man did not know the hour, but in his divine state he did know the hour.

However so, what about the Holy Spirit? Jesus claims that no one but the Father knows the last hour, this means the Holy Spirit does not know the last hour neither! Hence the Holy Spirit is not God because it is not all-knowing. The Holy Spirit was not a God-man like Jesus, the Holy Spirit never limited himself like Jesus, so what possible explanation could the Christian give? Why isnt the Holy Spirit all-knowing? Why didnt Jesus say the only one who knows the last hour is the Holy Spirit and the Father only?

Note what Jesus said:

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only

Jesus says that ONLY THE FATHER knows, this means that not even the divine Jesus knows! If you say that ONLY this person knows something, then it excludes everyone else. So hence the fact that Jesus said ONLY my Father means that even the divine Jesus doesnt know the last hour, if the divine Jesus knows the last hour then Jesus was wrong when he said that ONLY the Father knows.


I think this question is missing the point of the verse, but anyway- my Bible has a footnote that some manuscripts do not include the "not the son" part. Without that you could interpret Father to be all three if you wanted.. However, I don't think it matters for the overall meaning of the verses. There are many other verses stating the divinity of father, son and holy spirit (which I will find if you want Smile ) to clarify the point.

Quote:
6) What was the point of the crucification? Jesus never wiped the sins off mankind because the women even nowadays suffer pains during labor and the man eats the fruits of his labor/ toil. It was an important indication for the redemption of the sins, that at least the Christian women should not suffer pain during labor and Christian men should not have to work hard to earn their bread.
The pains and the sufferings are still there. So the punishment of the original sin of Adam and Eve is still very much there.


The point of the crucifixtion was not to wipe out all sin but to bear the punishment for the sin. God new that would sin and he didn't want us to bear the ultimate punishment (death/separation from God) so he sent Jesus. We still sin so the consequences are still there- which creates a lot of the suffering in the world. As for childbearing and labor/toil, I think those were meant as permenent things.. and very easy compared with what God could have done.
mikewould
quite simply, God is Holy and that means God HAS to punish sin, because God is HOLY, He HATES sin.

God would not be right to JUST forgive everyone, ---

it is like if someone hurt you and they don't even say sorry
do you just forgive them? sure you could, but God's standard is perfection and none of us can live life perfectly.

so God has to punish us for our purposefully sinning against Him and hurting Him and not meeting His standard of perfection.

hope that helps.
ncwdavid
I am Atheist and proud of it. Why do you people waste yere time going to church, praying and following a religion. In my if god(over hyped David Blaine) was real he wouldn'y be leaving 100s of innocent people in 3rd world countries be dying everyday and stop all this terrorism.

Could someone please tell me why you believe something that was written thousands of years ago by somebody. If its all real why don't people rise from the dead now adays and do impossible stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???
Soulfire
ncwdavid wrote:
I am Atheist and proud of it. Why do you people waste yere time going to church, praying and following a religion. In my if god(over hyped David Blaine) was real he wouldn'y be leaving 100s of innocent people in 3rd world countries be dying everyday and stop all this terrorism.

Could someone please tell me why you believe something that was written thousands of years ago by somebody. If its all real why don't people rise from the dead now adays and do impossible stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???

Because it's real. It was written by God. And they do impossible stuff - you think my 16 year old friend who was diagnosed with cancer healed completely on his own - in half of the projected time? Nope. That's God working. Even though you refuse to believe, he works in you as well.

God exists whether you believe in Him or not.

You can look at fire, and believe with your whole heart that it is cold... but in the end, it's still hot.

1) Jesus died because He was TOTALLY submitted to God's will. When you submit yourself to God's will, you do as your told, and as a Son, it's your responsibility to obey your Father. And you know what? Jesus didn't pray to not die. Jesus prayed that this was the right thing to do. Jesus prayed that being crucified was part of the plan.

And we don't know why God didn't use his all-powerfulness to relieve sin. Perhaps it's because he wanted someone (Jesus) to show the proper way to follow him, and because he wanted the people who refused to believe in him be punished.

I may answer the others later, but the answers are varying because of personal interpretation of the Bible. Therefore, I can't really say what is right and not.
livilou
You have some wonderful questions and I hope I can give you some answers that make sense.

Quote:
1) God killed Jesus in the crucifications when He could have easily used His All-Powerfulness to forgive sins, and did not answer his prayers despite him praying all night long.


God did not kill Jesus, Jesus gave himself.

John 10
17
Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again
18
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Matthew 26:39
And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Mark 14:36
And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

Luke 22:42
Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

While Jesus did ask if this could be stopped, he always stated not my will, but yours (talking about God's will). And God did answer his prayer, God said no, this cup could not be taken from him.

I realize it's easy to say that God doesn't answer our prayers when nothing happens when we pray, but sometimes God says wait or no and we don't understand.

Quote:
2) When Abraham was told by God to sacrifice his son, his son did not object or question him, if Jesus was sent to be sacrificed for our sins, why would he question God?

"Eloih, Eloih, why have you forsaken me?"

Could this not come from someone other than Jesus? Even a Non Prophet would smile at agony as he knew that his death would win him the title of martyr.


Jesus never really questioned God, all he did was ask that he not be crucified if it was God's will. It is our nature to not want to die, Jesus was God and man. The man part didn't want to die either. Knowing that you would have to go through what he did, would you have done it without at least asking that it not happen if it didn't need to.

Plus you have to look at the fact that God cannot look at sin. When Jesus was dying, he had taken our sin on him so God could not look at him.

Quote:
3) Why did Jesus rise up on the wrong day?
Jesus was asked for a miracle. Instead of saying "look at that dead man who rose", he said something like "three days and three nights i will be like Jonus". Except for this: he rose in the morning. That means he rose a night earlier. How could this happen?


The verse you are referring to is:
Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Mark 15:25
And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.

The third hour was 9am. Their day started at 6:00 in the morning.

Going by this, he did stay three days and three nights.

Quote:
4) How can Jesus be god, if he was given all authority and power?


As a man, Jesus had to be given all authority and power. You are also referring to a time after the crusifiction. Jesus was no longer part man, that part had been cricified. Man cannot have authority and power of that king.

The part about the centurian was answered by kcw1304, so I won't go into that.

Quote:
5) Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


As to why Jesus didn't know at that time when, I honestly can say. My opinion is that He didn't need to know at that time.

Quote:
6) What was the point of the crucification? Jesus never wiped the sins off mankind because the women even nowadays suffer pains during labor and the man eats the fruits of his labor/ toil. It was an important indication for the redemption of the sins, that at least the Christian women should not suffer pain during labor and Christian men should not have to work hard to earn their bread.
The pains and the sufferings are still there. So the punishment of the original sin of Adam and Eve is still very much there.


Before Jesus was crucified, the only way to have sin rolled forward was by the blood of cows and goats. God knew that wasn't good enough, plus it didn't allow any Gentiles the ability to know God. This was for the Jews only. Since Jesus gave his life for us as our sacrifice, he paved the way for Jew and Gentile to know him. It has nothing to do with our sins never being punished, but by the fact that through the blood of Jesus, our sins are forgiven if we pray for forgiveness. Man is born into sin, so of course the punishment for sin is still there. Each man or woman has to go to Jesus to ask for forgiveness, it's not given just because of. It has to asked for.

As far as the pain and suffering during child birth, it's worth it. I have two children and the pleasure I receive with my children is worth any amount of pain that comes with it. Also, I don't see where that will ever change. I don't care what you do, trying to squeeze something the size of a watermelon out of a hole the size of a grape will hurt.
loyal
Quote:

kcw1304 said: OK, Here are my thoughts on these questions..

1) Why did God not answer Jesus' prayer not to die?

Jesus' main purpose in coming to earth was to come as a perfect sacrifice for our sins. This ties back to the old testament- people in the old testament offered animal sacrifices for their sins; the animals had to be perfect and without blemish.

In the same way, Jesus came as the ultimate sacrifice, lived a perfect, sinless life and was killed as atonement for our sins.

Back to the answering prayer issue, Jesus's prayer was not that he wouldn't be crucified, it was that he wouldn't be crucified IF it was God's will.
Matthew 26:39

39Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will." (The other 2 verses are similar)

And it obviously wasn't God's for Jesus not to die will since he did-- God loves people and wanted to give his son so that we can be forgiven. In conclusion, God did answer his prayer by carrying out His plan for Jesus to be crucified for our sins.


But why did God let Jesus be tortured? If He is all powerful surely He would save the world by clicking His fingers?

Quote:

I don't really understand the second part of your question, but I will address the first part..

Abraham was definitely a great man of faith, but God was with him. When Jesus was on the cross he had to bear the the punishment for sin, which is separation from God. So when he was up on the cross dying he was separated from God, God had abandoned him so that he would not have to abondon us because of our sin. Because of this and the fact that Jesus was human, is why he questioned God.


What? But i thought the punishment was for the original was labour, man works for fruits and so on. Where did you get this idea of seperation from God? Where is it in the Bible? Also if Jesus took the sins, doesn't that mean he died with sins? Also the question meant that the guy who was crucified could not have been Jesus, because Abraham a pure human was ready to sacrifice his son, but Jesus pure human and pure god as Christians say, said "why have you forsaken me?"

Quote:

Question 3 I think has been well addressed already by We r the SYC


No it has not. See my response.

Quote:

The centurion is just making a statement of faith.. I believe you can control demons and sickness, etc like I can control my soldiers and servants. I don't see what this has to do with the question..

This is related to the issue of the trinity which I'm not going to attempt to debate.. I think the verse is referring to God giving Jesus authority while he's on earth, or it could be Jesus' godly nature giving him the authority. The verse doesn't explicitly say (that I see) who or what gave him the authority.


Hmmm...but Jesus' godly nature (the Christians say) is a part of Jesus. So something that gave him authority is not allowed to be Jesus. This means God must have given him authority. But this means that God gave authority to the divine part of Jesus (which i do not believe in).

Quote:

I think this question is missing the point of the verse, but anyway- my Bible has a footnote that some manuscripts do not include the "not the son" part. Without that you could interpret Father to be all three if you wanted.. However, I don't think it matters for the overall meaning of the verses. There are many other verses stating the divinity of father, son and holy spirit (which I will find if you want Smile ) to clarify the point.


But that does not affect it. Only the father knows. So the son and spirit do not know. How can it mean the father son spirit if it says ONLY the father? This means they are not coequal.

Quote:

The point of the crucifixtion was not to wipe out all sin but to bear the punishment for the sin. God new that would sin and he didn't want us to bear the ultimate punishment (death/separation from God) so he sent Jesus. We still sin so the consequences are still there- which creates a lot of the suffering in the world. As for childbearing and labor/toil, I think those were meant as permenent things.. and very easy compared with what God could have done.


Oh okay thanks.
loyal
Quote:

quite simply, God is Holy and that means God HAS to punish sin, because God is HOLY, He HATES sin.

God would not be right to JUST forgive everyone, ---

it is like if someone hurt you and they don't even say sorry
do you just forgive them? sure you could, but God's standard is perfection and none of us can live life perfectly.

so God has to punish us for our purposefully sinning against Him and hurting Him and not meeting His standard of perfection.

hope that helps.


But some of us repent. So surely the repenters should be forgiven with no punishment?
loyal
Quote:

I am Atheist and proud of it. Why do you people waste yere time going to church, praying and following a religion. In my if god(over hyped David Blaine) was real he wouldn'y be leaving 100s of innocent people in 3rd world countries be dying everyday and stop all this terrorism.

Could someone please tell me why you believe something that was written thousands of years ago by somebody. If its all real why don't people rise from the dead now adays and do impossible stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???


The time of miracles is over, my friend. Now all we can do is find miracles in our lives. However in Islam, there are miracles in the Qur'an. So for Muslims, we always have something to believe in. God has to allow suffering because it is our fault. This whole life is test to see how loyal we are to Him. They are dying because of us. We could go and fix the problem, but the authorities are not bothering. Britian and america could leave iraq alone and send troops to darthfur where genocide is happening. But they will not.
loyal
Quote:

1) Jesus died because He was TOTALLY submitted to God's will. When you submit yourself to God's will, you do as your told, and as a Son, it's your responsibility to obey your Father. And you know what? Jesus didn't pray to not die. Jesus prayed that this was the right thing to do. Jesus prayed that being crucified was part of the plan.

And we don't know why God didn't use his all-powerfulness to relieve sin. Perhaps it's because he wanted someone (Jesus) to show the proper way to follow him, and because he wanted the people who refused to believe in him be punished.

I may answer the others later, but the answers are varying because of personal interpretation of the Bible. Therefore, I can't really say what is right and not.


"And we don't know why God didn't use his all-powerfulness to relieve sin. Perhaps it's because he wanted someone (Jesus) to show the proper way to follow him, and because he wanted the people who refused to believe in him be punished."

but that's my question! Why would God let a human being suffer, instead of using His Power?
loyal
Quote:

You have some wonderful questions and I hope I can give you some answers that make sense.


Thanks.

Quote:

God did not kill Jesus, Jesus gave himself.....While Jesus did ask if this could be stopped, he always stated not my will, but yours (talking about God's will). And God did answer his prayer, God said no, this cup could not be taken from him.

I realize it's easy to say that God doesn't answer our prayers when nothing happens when we pray, but sometimes God says wait or no and we don't understand.


You answered part 1 of the questions, but what about pain? Why God let a human being suffer so much, instead of using His power to forgive?

Quote:

Jesus never really questioned God, all he did was ask that he not be crucified if it was God's will. It is our nature to not want to die, Jesus was God and man. The man part didn't want to die either. Knowing that you would have to go through what he did, would you have done it without at least asking that it not happen if it didn't need to.

Plus you have to look at the fact that God cannot look at sin. When Jesus was dying, he had taken our sin on him so God could not look at him.


But that means all the humans upto Jesus could not be looked on. Because we all had sin. So why was Jesus repeating the obvious, that they all felt seperated from God?

Also "Eloih, Eloih, why have you forsaken me?" sounds alot like "God why did you leave me to die on the cross?". How come Jesus is asking a question that he should know the answer to?

Quote:

The verse you are referring to is:
Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Mark 15:25
And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.

The third hour was 9am. Their day started at 6:00 in the morning.

Going by this, he did stay three days and three nights.


thursday day
thursday night........day 0
friday day : Jesus crucified
friday night............day 1
saturday morning
saturday night........day 2
sunday morning : Jesus rose
sunday night..........day 3
monday morning
monday night.........day 4

Well he still rose the wrong time. According to my timetable above Jesus was dead for 2 days, 2 nights. How come Jesus rose early?

Quote:

5) Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


As to why Jesus didn't know at that time when, I honestly can say. My opinion is that He didn't need to know at that time.


My question was not asking about Jesus, but the holy spirit. Why did the holy spirit which had not reduced itself to a man, not know the time? "the father ONLY".

Quote:

Before Jesus was crucified, the only way to have sin rolled forward was by the blood of cows and goats. God knew that wasn't good enough, plus it didn't allow any Gentiles the ability to know God. This was for the Jews only. Since Jesus gave his life for us as our sacrifice, he paved the way for Jew and Gentile to know him. It has nothing to do with our sins never being punished, but by the fact that through the blood of Jesus, our sins are forgiven if we pray for forgiveness. Man is born into sin, so of course the punishment for sin is still there. Each man or woman has to go to Jesus to ask for forgiveness, it's not given just because of. It has to asked for.

As far as the pain and suffering during child birth, it's worth it. I have two children and the pleasure I receive with my children is worth any amount of pain that comes with it. Also, I don't see where that will ever change. I don't care what you do, trying to squeeze something the size of a watermelon out of a hole the size of a grape will hurt.


Oh okay thanks. Children are great Smile
livilou
Quote:
You answered part 1 of the questions, but what about pain? Why God let a human being suffer so much, instead of using His power to forgive?


Please know that these are my opinions only.

As Christians, we look as God as being our Father, You do understand that, correct? That being the case, let's look at the way a good father treats his children and how children may or not react.

If you give your children everything they ask for, are you really doing them a favor? Will not the child become spoilt, believing that they don't have to anything on their own to get something. After all, why should they when their father will give it to them if they ask? They will never learn to stand on their own two feet, never learn to stand up for themself. God does want to do for us, but he understands that some lessons we have to learn for ourself, just like we understand that our children have to learn some lessons for themselves. We can tell them why not to do something or why they should, but until they live it, they will never understand. As a father with a baby, do you walk for him, or instead try to help him stand and learn to walk on his own? Do you try to keep him from the sharp edges that he's heading toward, do you comfort him when he makes a mistake or is hurt? That is what God does for us. He wants us to learn to walk on our own. He'll try and guide us away from the sharp edges but somethings we have to learn on our own.

As far as the pain, how do we appreciate the good times unless we have some bad. how do we become stronger unless we're tried and tempted. To make metal strong, you have to put it in the fire and get rid of all the impurities. The same is true for us.

As to why Jesus had to suffer, He took on every characteristic of mankind, he also took mocking, envy, ridicule, scorn, yet still he forgave. He suffered so we could be healed. The verse "by His strips we are healed" and I've seen people healed of things that no doctor can heal. He done it because He loved us.

Quote:
But that means all the humans upto Jesus could not be looked on. Because we all had sin. So why was Jesus repeating the obvious, that they all felt seperated from God?

Also "Eloih, Eloih, why have you forsaken me?" sounds alot like "God why did you leave me to die on the cross?". How come Jesus is asking a question that he should know the answer to?


You are correct to a point. The Gentiles were not looked upon by God because they had no way to come to know him unless they joined the Tribe of Israel. Through the sacrifice of bulls and goats, the Jews were able to roll their sins forward until the next year, when they would have to go through it again. Also, the only ones that could actually talk to God were the High Priests. The average man had no way to talk to God and have a personal relationship with him. When Jesus gave his life for us, he tore the veil in two and became our high priest. Now we can have the one on one relationship with God that was denied before.

As far as why Jesus said "Why have you forsaken me?" Jesus was covered with the sin of all men, past, present and future. And as I already stated, God cannot look upon sin. God had literally turned his back on Jesus. That is why He made that comment, but it was only while Jesus was carriing the sins for us.

Quote:
thursday day
thursday night........day 0
friday day : Jesus crucified
friday night............day 1
saturday morning
saturday night........day 2
sunday morning : Jesus rose
sunday night..........day 3
monday morning
monday night.........day 4

Well he still rose the wrong time. According to my timetable above Jesus was dead for 2 days, 2 nights. How come Jesus rose early?


Let's look at it this way:

Thursday morning to Friday morning - day 1
Friday morning to Saturday morning - day 2
Saturday morning to Sunday morning - day 3

At least that is how we look upon it. He didn't die that evening, He died i the morning. It didn't take that long for Jesus to die on the cross.

Quote:
My question was not asking about Jesus, but the holy spirit. Why did the holy spirit which had not reduced itself to a man, not know the time? "the father ONLY".


Sorry for the typo, I meant "I can't say". And whose to say that the Holy Spirit doesn't know, since it's God's presense in us, and just isn't saying? If you knew when a thief would be coming to your house, wouldn't you be prepared for that time only?

The over all thing is it's God's plan. His plan, His creation, His timeline. Man is on a need to know basis, so He won't tell us. He said that we should live each day as if it's our last because we don't know, and if we live that way, one day we'll be correct.

God doesn't want us to worry about that, yet it seems that is all man wants to worry about. God will come when He comes. We will die when it's our time. Why worry about something that we have no control over?

Quote:
Oh okay thanks. Children are great


Thanks, I agree completely. Children are a true blessing.

Anyway, I hope that helps. If not, let me know and I'll try to do better.
the_mariska
Quote:
Mark 15:25
And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.

The third hour was 9am. Their day started at 6:00 in the morning.

Going by this, he did stay three days and three nights.


At the beginning a few words about the ancient Hebrew's ways of counting time [IMHO it's not as important as the questions you asked but I don't have enough time to explain all of them right now]. In their culture, a new day started at the moment of sunset. They celebrated all of their holidays on the Eve the day before, that also explains the behaviour of Jews in this passage:
John 19:31 wrote:
Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
.

And counting of hours started as you wrote, from 6am, that is from the sunrise. In the 15th chapter of the Gospel if Mark, there's also written that Jesus died about the 9th hour, that is 3 pm. They hurried to bury His body before the sunset as it was forbidden to do any work in the day of Sabbath [and it started at 6 pm]. So Jesus was laid to the tomb still on Friday, He was laying there the whole Sabbath = Saturday, and during the night from Saturday to Sunday [in the Hebrew way of counting, on Sunday] he rose.

So he has been in the tomb during some hours on Friday, Saturday and Sunday = 3 days. I know this is a bit complicated, it took me some time to understand Smile. I even remember that when I was a little child I got a bad mark when I wrote on a test that Jesus was in the tomb a bit less than two days, and later proved it mathematically Laughing.

I'd love to write a few lines on other questions... but it would be too much for once, and I wouldn't feel like reading this all myself Smile Another time I will for sure. Very Happy
loyal
Quote:

Please know that these are my opinions only.


That's okay Smile

Quote:

As Christians, we look as God as being our Father, You do understand that, correct? That being the case, let's look at the way a good father treats his children and how children may or not react.


I understand it well, but i am not a Christian.

Quote:

If you give your children everything they ask for, are you really doing them a favor? Will not the child become spoilt, believing that they don't have to anything on their own to get something. After all, why should they when their father will give it to them if they ask? They will never learn to stand on their own two feet, never learn to stand up for themself. God does want to do for us, but he understands that some lessons we have to learn for ourself, just like we understand that our children have to learn some lessons for themselves. We can tell them why not to do something or why they should, but until they live it, they will never understand. As a father with a baby, do you walk for him, or instead try to help him stand and learn to walk on his own? Do you try to keep him from the sharp edges that he's heading toward, do you comfort him when he makes a mistake or is hurt? That is what God does for us. He wants us to learn to walk on our own. He'll try and guide us away from the sharp edges but somethings we have to learn on our own.


Well for Jesus, we all know he's a special guy. I mean he is supposed to be sinless, so it's not like he is going to sin. So i do not understand how Jesus would become spoilt? Unless you actually mean, that Jesus can sin, and God was protecting him?

Quote:

As far as the pain, how do we appreciate the good times unless we have some bad. how do we become stronger unless we're tried and tempted. To make metal strong, you have to put it in the fire and get rid of all the impurities. The same is true for us.

As to why Jesus had to suffer, He took on every characteristic of mankind, he also took mocking, envy, ridicule, scorn, yet still he forgave. He suffered so we could be healed. The verse "by His strips we are healed" and I've seen people healed of things that no doctor can heal. He done it because He loved us.


But Jesus is supposed to be perfect? How can he appreciate the good times when surely he was probaly teaching the disciples to appreciate the good times. Jesus would have always forgiven the people who mocked him. What is the point of the crucification if proving the obvious?

Quote:

You are correct to a point. The Gentiles were not looked upon by God because they had no way to come to know him unless they joined the Tribe of Israel.


I disagree there. All people on earth are under the blessings of God, unless they reject it when they reach adulthood/maturity. Otherwise it just would not be fair.

Quote:

Through the sacrifice of bulls and goats, the Jews were able to roll their sins forward until the next year, when they would have to go through it again. Also, the only ones that could actually talk to God were the High Priests. The average man had no way to talk to God and have a personal relationship with him. When Jesus gave his life for us, he tore the veil in two and became our high priest. Now we can have the one on one relationship


But surely they could have relationships. I mean an average poor Jew just has to believe in God, and really love Him, and submit to have a relationship surely? What maks the high priest so special? nothing except he got to the position.

If Jesus took the sins upon himself, did he die in sin?

Thanks God bless you.
livilou
When I referred to getting spoilt and having to go through pain, I was talking about man, not Jesus. Sorry if I didn't explain it correctly.

As far as could Jesus sin? Truthfully, yes, he could have. He was part flesh after all. His mother was human like us. His father was God. He just choose not to sin.

Also, I realize that you aren't a Christian, it just seemed to be the easiest way to express it where you can understand how Christians look at this, and I hope I accomplished that.

Quote:
I disagree there. All people on earth are under the blessings of God, unless they reject it when they reach adulthood/maturity. Otherwise it just would not be fair.


Yes, all people now can have a relationship with God, but it wasn't always like that. But to understand the New Testament, you have to understand the Old Testament. They are both part of the Bible and both are important in our walk with God. And if I state things you already know, please understand I mean no insult, I'm just trying to help you understand where I'm coming from.

The Old Testament is the history of how the world was created as well as the history of the Jews and their walk with God. From the time God set up his covenant with Abraham and his children, you will not read anywhere where God spoke to someone that was not from the seed of Abraham, at least not until you start getting into the New Testament. Gentiles, during this time frame were considered lower that pond scum. They were nothing. Jews were to have nothing to do with them. A Gentile could join the Jews, but there where things he/she had to do to be adopted into the tribe, and most were not nice at all. As far as being fair, I agree, but that's the way God set it up. He set aside Abraham and his children to be his chosen people, the rest of the people on Earth, from that time until Peter went to Cornelius (New Testament), God had nothing to do with.

Quote:
But surely they could have relationships. I mean an average poor Jew just has to believe in God, and really love Him, and submit to have a relationship surely? What maks the high priest so special? nothing except he got to the position.


Not really, the average Jew could not have a one on one relationship with God, at least not once the Tabernacle was set up. And you have to remember, we're talking about the Old Testament time, before the time of Jesus' death. There were 3 sections to the Tabernacle: the courtyard, where most offerings were made; the in sanctuary, where the several items were; then you had the Holy of Holy. This is where the Ark of the Covenant sat, and where God lived. God resided in the Holy of Holys and the only person allowed in there was the high priest. There was also a certain order things had to be done in the sactuary, if it was not done correctly, the high priest would die right then and there. And the high priest could only be from the tribe of Levi. This was a harsh time to live. There were certain rules you had to follow, if you broke these rules, most of the time the punishment was death. (There's no other way to say this except it was a very, very barbaric time.)

Quote:
If Jesus took the sins upon himself, did he die in sin?


Yes, He actually did, but He overcame death, hell and the grave when he was resurrected. Jesus was without sin until he took our on himself. He never committed a sin, so he became the perfect sacrifice for us.

Please don't take this wrong, but I wish you were here so we could talk in person and you could talk to my father-in-law. He can explain things so much easier than me. Jesus willingly took on our sins so all man could have a chance to come to God. Now, because of him, we can have a one on one relationship with God. This ability is open to anyone whose willing to do it. It doesn't matter what nationality or background a person has, they are welcome.
loyal
Quote:

As far as why Jesus said "Why have you forsaken me?" Jesus was covered with the sin of all men, past, present and future. And as I already stated, God cannot look upon sin. God had literally turned his back on Jesus. That is why He made that comment, but it was only while Jesus was carriing the sins for us.


But that leads to question 2. Abraham covered by sin. He was ready to sacrifice his own son. Ishmael/Isaac was prepared to die for God. Even a man would be happy when he died because he would be a martyr. Yet Jesus who is supposed to have a divine side as well, he knows about all this stuff. But why would he say such a sentence?

Quote:

thursday day
thursday night........day 0
friday day : Jesus crucified
friday night............day 1
saturday morning
saturday night........day 2
sunday morning : Jesus rose
sunday night..........day 3
monday morning
monday night.........day 4

Well he still rose the wrong time. According to my timetable above Jesus was dead for 2 days, 2 nights. How come Jesus rose early?


Let's look at it this way:

Thursday morning to Friday morning - day 1
Friday morning to Saturday morning - day 2
Saturday morning to Sunday morning - day 3

At least that is how we look upon it. He didn't die that evening, He died i the morning. It didn't take that long for Jesus to die on the cross.


Jesus was crucified on friday morning. So day one in your timetable does not exist.

Quote:

Sorry for the typo, I meant "I can't say". And whose to say that the Holy Spirit doesn't know, since it's God's presense in us, and just isn't saying? If you knew when a thief would be coming to your house, wouldn't you be prepared for that time only?


I do not understand the relevance between the thief and the holy spirit. The holy spirit does not know. The verse said only the father knows. And some manuscripts included the son not knowing. Now we are referring to the parts of the trinity. So only the father parts knows. Only. That is why the holy spirit does not know.
So why does the holy spirit not know? The trinity is supposed to be co-equal?

Quote:

The over all thing is it's God's plan. His plan, His creation, His timeline. Man is on a need to know basis, so He won't tell us. He said that we should live each day as if it's our last because we don't know, and if we live that way, one day we'll be correct.

God doesn't want us to worry about that, yet it seems that is all man wants to worry about. God will come when He comes. We will die when it's our time. Why worry about something that we have no control over?


Wise words.

Quote:

When I referred to getting spoilt and having to go through pain, I was talking about man, not Jesus. Sorry if I didn't explain it correctly.

As far as could Jesus sin? Truthfully, yes, he could have. He was part flesh after all. His mother was human like us. His father was God. He just choose not to sin.

Also, I realize that you aren't a Christian, it just seemed to be the easiest way to express it where you can understand how Christians look at this, and I hope I accomplished that.


Oh. Well then why did Jesus had to suffer instead of God using His Power?

Quote:

Yes, all people now can have a relationship with God, but it wasn't always like that. But to understand the New Testament, you have to understand the Old Testament. They are both part of the Bible and both are important in our walk with God. And if I state things you already know, please understand I mean no insult, I'm just trying to help you understand where I'm coming from.

The Old Testament is the history of how the world was created as well as the history of the Jews and their walk with God. From the time God set up his covenant with Abraham and his children, you will not read anywhere where God spoke to someone that was not from the seed of Abraham, at least not until you start getting into the New Testament.


I disagree with you there. An intensive study of the Bible shows the Old Testament was made from four different sources including the E and so on sources. Each tribe was from Judaism but each had its opinions. For example one of the sources made Aaron did all the work and Moses was just a prophet who was terible. But another make it look at though they were a team.

Thus, because the Old Testament was written by the Jews, we have no idea if God spoke to a non-Jew or not.

Quote:

Gentiles, during this time frame were considered lower that pond scum. They were nothing. Jews were to have nothing to do with them. A Gentile could join the Jews, but there where things he/she had to do to be adopted into the tribe, and most were not nice at all. As far as being fair, I agree, but that's the way God set it up. He set aside Abraham and his children to be his chosen people, the rest of the people on Earth, from that time until Peter went to Cornelius (New Testament), God had nothing to do with.


But that means God is unjust and unfair. He choose one group over another.

Quote:

Not really, the average Jew could not have a one on one relationship with God, at least not once the Tabernacle was set up. And you have to remember, we're talking about the Old Testament time, before the time of Jesus' death. There were 3 sections to the Tabernacle: the courtyard, where most offerings were made; the in sanctuary, where the several items were; then you had the Holy of Holy. This is where the Ark of the Covenant sat, and where God lived. God resided in the Holy of Holys and the only person allowed in there was the high priest. There was also a certain order things had to be done in the sactuary, if it was not done correctly, the high priest would die right then and there. And the high priest could only be from the tribe of Levi. This was a harsh time to live. There were certain rules you had to follow, if you broke these rules, most of the time the punishment was death. (There's no other way to say this except it was a very, very barbaric time.)


I would not call it barbaric. I completely disagree. The arab tribes before Islam was founded, were always avenging death. The Torah gives Laws to stone sometimes. You cannot call something from God, barbaric. Those laws fit in with the culture, and so on. If we applied cutting off the hand for stealing, i think america would loose most of its crimes connected with stealing lol.

Quote:

Yes, He actually did, but He overcame death, hell and the grave when he was resurrected. Jesus was without sin until he took our on himself. He never committed a sin, so he became the perfect sacrifice for us.


But doesn't mean he will go to hell on the Final Day?

Quote:

Please don't take this wrong, but I wish you were here so we could talk in person and you could talk to my father-in-law.


So do i. Who is he? A priest or a preacher or something?

Quote:

He can explain things so much easier than me. Jesus willingly took on our sins so all man could have a chance to come to God. Now, because of him, we can have a one on one relationship with God. This ability is open to anyone whose willing to do it. It doesn't matter what nationality or background a person has, they are welcome.


And that is how it is meant to be Smile
loyal
Quote:

At the beginning a few words about the ancient Hebrew's ways of counting time it's not as important as the questions you asked but I don't have enough time to explain all of them right now]. In their culture, a new day started at the moment of sunset. They celebrated all of their holidays on the Eve the day before, that also explains the behaviour of Jews in this passage:
John 19:31 wrote:
Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
.

And counting of hours started as you wrote, from 6am, that is from the sunrise. In the 15th chapter of the Gospel if Mark, there's also written that Jesus died about the 9th hour, that is 3 pm. They hurried to bury His body before the sunset as it was forbidden to do any work in the day of Sabbath [and it started at 6 pm]. So Jesus was laid to the tomb still on Friday, He was laying there the whole Sabbath = Saturday, and during the night from Saturday to Sunday [in the Hebrew way of counting, on Sunday] he rose.

So he has been in the tomb during some hours on Friday, Saturday and Sunday = 3 days. I know this is a bit complicated, it took me some time to understand Smile. I even remember that when I was a little child I got a bad mark when I wrote on a test that Jesus was in the tomb a bit less than two days, and later proved it mathematically Laughing.

I'd love to write a few lines on other questions... but it would be too much for once, and I wouldn't feel like reading this all myself Smile Another time I will for sure.


Thanks. But isn't my table still right? I already knew about the Jewish counting.

thursday day
thursday night........day begins
friday day : Jesus crucified day 0
friday night............day begins
saturday day day 1
saturday night........day begins
sunday day : Jesus rose day 2
sunday night..........day begins

Well he still rose the wrong time. According to my timetable above Jesus was dead for 2 days, 2 nights. How come Jesus rose early?
a_dubDesign
loyal wrote:
Oh. Well then why did Jesus had to suffer instead of God using His Power?

One thought is the idea of right handed vs left handed power, sorry I forget who it originated with. In Rome we have this picture of extreme power, they pretty much run the world with a do something against us and you die, with plenty of reminders along the roads in the form of dead bodies hanging on a cross, and pictures and reminders of the emperor all over. Think Saddom Heussein and you've got the idea of right handed power. A power based in fear. Its what the world considers power.

On the other hand (sorry couldn't resist), we see a picture of left handed power in Jesus. The power of a "suffering servant" as he beautifully put it. Its a power based in love. Its one that turns the other check and exposes the injustice in the world without joining in that injustice. The beautiful thing was everyone thought that the right-handed power had won with the cruicifixion, since death is the ultimate end of right handed power. But in the resurrection Jesus showed that love ultimately wins over all. To take a page from Rob Bell of the Grand Rapids Mars Hill Bible Church, Love Wins.

loyal wrote:
But that means God is unjust and unfair. He choose one group over another.

People tend to miss out on the inclusive nature of God's choosing of people. God's choice of a person/people/nations for inclusion doesn't mean the exclusion of all others in the long run. God choose Abraham to be the begining of His nation, but a quick search with BibleGateway will show he was blessed to be a blessing, and that all people will be blessed through him. (Genesis 12, with refrences to that in Genesis 18,22,26 Pslam 72, Galatians 3 to name a quick few). The very begining of what it meant to be a person of God meant we use God's blessing to bless others.

We see this played out again with Jacob and Easu. God choose Jacob even though the birth-right should have gone to Easu. Later on in the story, after the two have seperated they meet up again and the two are reconcilied to each other and God, to the point of Easu appearing like God to Jacob (if I recall the text correctly).

And ultimately we see all of this come to a full head with Jesus, and the gospel going to those that were previously excluded, or maybe a better semantic word would be temporatily un-included, the Gentiles. God is fulfilling the original promise to Abraham to bless the world through him.
Its the wonderful inclusive nature of God's choosing.
Whong
First of all, Jesus asked God that he would not have to crusified, but stated "Yet not my will, but Thy will!" There is no other solution for sins forgivness but to offer a blameless one to wipe out the sins of man! Jesus knew that we are not able to fulfill the law so He did it for us!
irsmart
I will answer your first question:

Quote:
Why did God not answer Jesus' prayers not to die?


Jesus wanted to die. (in a sense)

He knew that he had to die to open heaven for everybody else, so he freely submitted himself to the cruel evil of the people who crucified him.
parokya
loyal wrote:

1) God killed Jesus in the crucifications when He could have easily used His All-Powerfulness to forgive sins, and did not answer his prayers despite him praying all night long.
Matthew 26:39, Mark 14:36, and Luke 22:42.


God did not kill Jesus. Jesus said:"The Father loves me because I lay down my life in order to take it up again. No one takes it from me; I lay it down of my own freewill." (John 10:17)



loyal wrote:

2) When Abraham was told by God to sacrifice his son, his son did not object or question him, if Jesus was sent to be sacrificed for our sins, why would he question God?

"Eloih, Eloih, why have you forsaken me?"


The quote is from Psalm 22 and is the Jew's evening prayer. It actually ends with a great shout of thanksgiving to Yahweh (see vv. 22-31) Jesus was not questioning him. He was just beginning to pray a song of thanksgiving.

loyal wrote:

3) Why did Jesus rise up on the wrong day?
Jesus was asked for a miracle. Instead of saying "look at that dead man who rose", he said something like "three days and three nights i will be like Jonus". Except for this: he rose in the morning. That means he rose a night earlier. How could this happen?


They didn't count a day as 24 hours. Sunrise to sunset is one day.

loyal wrote:

4) How can Jesus be god, if he was given all authority and power?


Read the whole of John 1:1-18. Besides in several instances in John, Jesus says that he is "I Am". "I Am" is God's name in Exodus 3.

loyal wrote:

5) Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

This verse has always been brought up to prove that Jesus himself is not God since he is not all-knowing.


Though he was in the form of God, St. Paul writes, Jesus did not deem equality with God something to be grasped at. Rather, he emptied himself, being born in the likeness of man

Jesus "emptied" himself and was like any human being.

loyal wrote:

6) What was the point of the crucification? Jesus never wiped the sins off mankind because the women even nowadays suffer pains during labor and the man eats the fruits of his labor/ toil. It was an important indication for the redemption of the sins, that at least the Christian women should not suffer pain during labor and Christian men should not have to work hard to earn their bread.
The pains and the sufferings are still there. So the punishment of the original sin of Adam and Eve is still very much there.


The issue is not about pains being wiped away. The issue is about DEATH. And by the resurrection of Jesus, Death has lost its grasp on humanity. Or as St. Paul would put it, mankind has been saved from the wrath of God.
loyal
Quote:

Oh. Well then why did Jesus had to suffer instead of God using His Power?
One thought is the idea of right handed vs left handed power, sorry I forget who it originated with. In Rome we have this picture of extreme power, they pretty much run the world with a do something against us and you die, with plenty of reminders along the roads in the form of dead bodies hanging on a cross, and pictures and reminders of the emperor all over. Think Saddom Heussein and you've got the idea of right handed power. A power based in fear. Its what the world considers power.

On the other hand (sorry couldn't resist), we see a picture of left handed power in Jesus. The power of a "suffering servant" as he beautifully put it. Its a power based in love. Its one that turns the other check and exposes the injustice in the world without joining in that injustice. The beautiful thing was everyone thought that the right-handed power had won with the cruicifixion, since death is the ultimate end of right handed power. But in the resurrection Jesus showed that love ultimately wins over all. To take a page from Rob Bell of the Grand Rapids Mars Hill Bible Church, Love Wins.


I don't understand what you mean. When God wants to show off power, he sents a flood. And then sends a rainbow as mercy. Why did God not use His All-Knowingness to find an alternative to torturing Jesus? God knows everything and therefore knows an alternative. He also knows how to carry out this plan because of Wisedom.

Quote:

People tend to miss out on the inclusive nature of God's choosing of people. God's choice of a person/people/nations for inclusion doesn't mean the exclusion of all others in the long run. God choose Abraham to be the begining of His nation, but a quick search with BibleGateway will show he was blessed to be a blessing, and that all people will be blessed through him. (Genesis 12, with refrences to that in Genesis 18,22,26 Pslam 72, Galatians 3 to name a quick few). The very begining of what it meant to be a person of God meant we use God's blessing to bless others.

We see this played out again with Jacob and Easu. God choose Jacob even though the birth-right should have gone to Easu. Later on in the story, after the two have seperated they meet up again and the two are reconcilied to each other and God, to the point of Easu appearing like God to Jacob (if I recall the text correctly).

And ultimately we see all of this come to a full head with Jesus, and the gospel going to those that were previously excluded, or maybe a better semantic word would be temporatily un-included, the Gentiles. God is fulfilling the original promise to Abraham to bless the world through him.
Its the wonderful inclusive nature of God's choosing.


Oh okay cool
loyal
Quote:

First of all, Jesus asked God that he would not have to crusified, but stated "Yet not my will, but Thy will!" There is no other solution for sins forgivness but to offer a blameless one to wipe out the sins of man! Jesus knew that we are not able to fulfill the law so He did it for us!


There is no other solution? Yes there is. God could have thought of one. If you say He could not, you deny God's knowledge and power.
Jesus prayed not to die. He did not want to die. "Take this cup away".
loyal
Quote:

I will answer your first question:

Quote:
Why did God not answer Jesus' prayers not to die?


Jesus wanted to die. (in a sense)

He knew that he had to die to open heaven for everybody else, so he freely submitted himself to the cruel evil of the people who crucified him.


Jesus prayed not to die three times. "Take this cup away".
loyal
Quote:

loyal wrote:

1) God killed Jesus in the crucifications when He could have easily used His All-Powerfulness to forgive sins, and did not answer his prayers despite him praying all night long.
Matthew 26:39, Mark 14:36, and Luke 22:42.


God did not kill Jesus. Jesus said:"The Father loves me because I lay down my life in order to take it up again. No one takes it from me; I lay it down of my own freewill." (John 10:17)


Yet strangely Jesus prays THREE times, and begs not to die.

Quote:

loyal wrote:

2) When Abraham was told by God to sacrifice his son, his son did not object or question him, if Jesus was sent to be sacrificed for our sins, why would he question God?

"Eloih, Eloih, why have you forsaken me?"


The quote is from Psalm 22 and is the Jew's evening prayer. It actually ends with a great shout of thanksgiving to Yahweh (see vv. 22-31) Jesus was not questioning him. He was just beginning to pray a song of thanksgiving.


Lol. I doubt that very much. I'm not sure about you, but i doubt Jesus would burst into song, inspired by the pain, and almost dead.

Quote:

loyal wrote:

3) Why did Jesus rise up on the wrong day?
Jesus was asked for a miracle. Instead of saying "look at that dead man who rose", he said something like "three days and three nights i will be like Jonus". Except for this: he rose in the morning. That means he rose a night earlier. How could this happen?


They didn't count a day as 24 hours. Sunrise to sunset is one day.


I know. And he still rose up wrong.

Quote:

loyal wrote:

4) How can Jesus be god, if he was given all authority and power?


Read the whole of John 1:1-18. Besides in several instances in John, Jesus says that he is "I Am". "I Am" is God's name in Exodus 3.


You avoided the question.
As for 'i am'.

The claim in John 8:56-59 "before Abraham was born, I am" is not the same as "worship me!" The fact that Jesus was present before Abraham is not the same as him saying "worship me!" What then would we say about Solomon Proverbs 8:22-31) and Melchizedec (Hebrews 7:3), who were supposedly present not only before Abraham, but also before all of creation? What about the many others who were either anointed, consecrated or made holy, before their births. (see Ps.89:20, Is. 45:1, 61:1, 1 Sam. 24:6, and Jer.1:5)?

With regard to your comparison of "I am" in the verse of Exodus 3:14 with that of John 8:59, please note that in John 9:9, a beggar who was healed by prophet Jesus used these exact same words used by Jesus ("I am") to refer to himself. We read

"Some said, This is he (the beggar): others [said], He is like him: [but] he said, I am [he]."

John 9:9.

Here we have a very clear statement from the beggar that he was "implying" that he too was God Almighty. Is this not how the "translators" have chosen to translate and "interpret" such verses?. Please note that the word "he" was not uttered by this beggar. What he actually said was "I am." He used the exact same words that Jesus used. Word for word. Does this now make this beggar too the "incarnation" of God? Also notice that when the Jews asked this beggar about the identity of the one who healed him (Jesus) he replied

"And he said, 'He is a prophet.'"

John 9:17

Further, please notice how the "translators" chose to add the word "he" after the beggar's statement, but they did not chose to do so when Jesus said the exact same words.

Just because the English translation of these verses is performed such that they become the same English words does not mean that the original words are the same. The first is the GREEK word eimi {i-mee'}, while the second is the HEBREW word hayah {haw-yaw}. While both can be translated into English to mean the same thing, they are in actuality two distinctly different words.

The exact same Greek word (eimi {i-mee'}) is translated as "I" in Matthew 26:22:

"And they [the disciples] were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?"

However, if we want to translate this word as "I am" when Jesus says it then we need to be honest and consistent and translate it the exact same way when the disciples say it too. In such a case, Matthew 26:22 would be translated as follows:

"And they [the disciples] were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I am?"

So, if we were to follow these translator's chosen "translation" techniques, shall we now claim that the disciples of Jesus too are God? Here we have them saying so very clearly. We have them asking Jesus in black and white "Are we God?." Is this not what they were "implying?." Should the inspiration of God be reduced to our "implications"?

When the translators have not allowed their preconceived doctrines to color their translation the result has been such faithful translations of John 8:58 as the following:

"'Truly, truly I tell you,' said Jesus, 'I have existed before Abraham was born'"

The Holy Bible Containing the Old and New Testaments, Dr. James Moffatt, John 8:58

and "Jesus said to them, 'I tell you, I existed before Abraham was born'"

The Complete Bible, an American Translation, by Edgar Goodspeed and J. M. Powis Smith, John 8:58

In Exodus 3:4, we read that prophet Moses used this exact same term to refer to himself, however, now strangely enough, no one has ever tried to claim that Moses is God or that he was mimicking the words of God found ten verses later in the same book of Exodus. We read:

"And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here I am."

Exodus 3:4

Notice how people are driven in a chosen direction of faith through selective translation? Also remember that Jesus (pbuh) did not speak GREEK. If only the church had not felt it necessary to burn all of the original Hebrew manuscripts of the Bible.

Is it so hard to bring us one clear verse like the above verse of Isaiah 66:23 wherein Jesus (pbuh) also says "worship me!"? Why must we infer? If Jesus is God or the Son of God then this is his right. The Bible should be overflowing with verses where Jesus explicitly commands his followers to worship him, where God explicitly commands mankind to worship his son, where God explicitly threatens those who do not worship His son with brimstone and hellfire, and so forth. The Bible is overflowing with verses like this from God about Himself, and from Jesus (pbuh) about God, but there are none from Jesus (pbuh) about himself. Why is it necessary:

1. For God Almighty to explicitly command us to worship Him, and
2. for Jesus to explicitly command us to worship "the Father."

while it is not necessary:

1. For Jesus (pbuh) to explicitly command us to worship him, or
2. for God to explicitly command us to worship "the Son"?

Is this not a fair request?

Quote:

loyal wrote:

5) Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

This verse has always been brought up to prove that Jesus himself is not God since he is not all-knowing.


Though he was in the form of God, St. Paul writes, Jesus did not deem equality with God something to be grasped at. Rather, he emptied himself, being born in the likeness of man

Jesus "emptied" himself and was like any human being.


You never answered my question. You quoted half of it. The question was, if ONLY the father knows, then the holy spirit which has not reduced itself, also does not know. So the trinity is no co-equal.

Quote:

loyal wrote:

6) What was the point of the crucification? Jesus never wiped the sins off mankind because the women even nowadays suffer pains during labor and the man eats the fruits of his labor/ toil. It was an important indication for the redemption of the sins, that at least the Christian women should not suffer pain during labor and Christian men should not have to work hard to earn their bread.
The pains and the sufferings are still there. So the punishment of the original sin of Adam and Eve is still very much there.


The issue is not about pains being wiped away. The issue is about DEATH. And by the resurrection of Jesus, Death has lost its grasp on humanity. Or as St. Paul would put it, mankind has been saved from the wrath of God.


So nothing happened from the crucifixtion? People still die.
felisleo
Why are there four bibles?
livilou
Quote:
Quote:

As far as why Jesus said "Why have you forsaken me?" Jesus was covered with the sin of all men, past, present and future. And as I already stated, God cannot look upon sin. God had literally turned his back on Jesus. That is why He made that comment, but it was only while Jesus was carriing the sins for us.


But that leads to question 2. Abraham covered by sin. He was ready to sacrifice his own son. Ishmael/Isaac was prepared to die for God. Even a man would be happy when he died because he would be a martyr. Yet Jesus who is supposed to have a divine side as well, he knows about all this stuff. But why would he say such a sentence?


Was he actually willing to die? The Bible doesn't say. All it shows is that he trusted his father, the same way Abraham trusted God.

Quote:
Quote:

thursday day
thursday night........day 0
friday day : Jesus crucified
friday night............day 1
saturday morning
saturday night........day 2
sunday morning : Jesus rose
sunday night..........day 3
monday morning
monday night.........day 4

Well he still rose the wrong time. According to my timetable above Jesus was dead for 2 days, 2 nights. How come Jesus rose early?


Let's look at it this way:

Thursday morning to Friday morning - day 1
Friday morning to Saturday morning - day 2
Saturday morning to Sunday morning - day 3

At least that is how we look upon it. He didn't die that evening, He died i the morning. It didn't take that long for Jesus to die on the cross.


Jesus was crucified on friday morning. So day one in your timetable does not exist.


You're correct, and I apologize, I was thinking about something else. Glad I never stated that I was an expert on this. lol Let me get with someone who can explain it better than I, then I'll get back with you on tihs one.

[/quote]
Quote:

Sorry for the typo, I meant "I can't say". And whose to say that the Holy Spirit doesn't know, since it's God's presense in us, and just isn't saying? If you knew when a thief would be coming to your house, wouldn't you be prepared for that time only?


I do not understand the relevance between the thief and the holy spirit. The holy spirit does not know. The verse said only the father knows. And some manuscripts included the son not knowing. Now we are referring to the parts of the trinity. So only the father parts knows. Only. That is why the holy spirit does not know.
So why does the holy spirit not know? The trinity is supposed to be co-equal?
Quote:


For one thing, I don't believe that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are three different beings. I believe that they are all part of the same being.

Let's look at it this way, and I hope it helps. Our body is made up of different sections, parts if you will. Each part has a specific function and only knows what it's supposed to do. For the sake of argument, let's pretend that each part of our body has understanding and can think on it's own. Each part would think different because it has a different function. The eyes can smell like our nose can, neither can our nose smell, so it would only make sense that they would think differently. They would not have the same understanding of how things work or what is going on. If you lost the ability to see with your eyes, you're nose wouldn't automatically take over that ability.

The same applies to Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Even though it's all part of one being, they have different responsibilites so have different understandings of how things work.

Quote:
Quote:

The over all thing is it's God's plan. His plan, His creation, His timeline. Man is on a need to know basis, so He won't tell us. He said that we should live each day as if it's our last because we don't know, and if we live that way, one day we'll be correct.

God doesn't want us to worry about that, yet it seems that is all man wants to worry about. God will come when He comes. We will die when it's our time. Why worry about something that we have no control over?


Wise words.