The right to form a legal union between two people is a financial civil right, no matter what you want to call it. Part of the purpose of marriage is to confer financial and civil rights to the partners that include:
- power of attorney in the event one is incapacitated
- the right to make decisions about medical care for each other when needed
- a clear right to inheritance in the absence of a will
- in some states, the right to cohabit
- insurance coverage on the same policy
- filing taxes together
- social security survivors' benefits
and so many more. This is not an argument about whether two people who love each other should be allowed to stand up and declare themselves a couple, but about whether two people who choose to share their lives should have the same rights, no matter what the gender makeup of the couple is.
Everyone has a right to love and to be loved. No matter what gender you are as long as you are aware of the consequences.
Not sure exactly what the question is. Your last line makes me wonder if you are talking about 2 people, of either sex, who decide to live together but arent in love, for example, good friends. If you are simply talking about gay marriage, then absolutely, I think they should be allowed the same rights and responsilities as any hetrosexual marriage.
If you are talking about friends living together and forming a legal unit, I would think maybe a corporation would be more appropriate.
ill answer to to thread title:
i dont think gay marriage is right but go ahead, its not my life.
also, there are homosexual marriage laws but no divorce laws as of yet.
Anyone in a loving, commited relationship should be allowed the same benefits no matter what kind of relationship it is. Why should they be penalized for loving someone of the same sex?
I don't have a problem with gay marriage.
Gay is not a new phenomenon... it was there since human kind appeared.
I think that it's not fair to not give the right to gays to get married!
PS: I'm not gay 
It's their choice. If a gay couple wants to get married, no one should try to stop them.
| CyanEyed wrote: |
ill answer to to thread title:
i dont think gay marriage is right but go ahead, its not my life.
also, there are homosexual marriage laws but no divorce laws as of yet. |
Now that's an interesting comment. Let's face itl even same sex couples might want to divorce for some reason. Some marriages just don't work out. It is not exclusive to heterosexual marriages.
So what does happen when a gay couple wants to divorce? What about Alimony? Who pays who; since both are males/Females? In a traditional marriage, the Male pays alimony to the female. So what about in this case?
The only way for a gay couple to have children is to adopt. It is now possible for same sex couples to adopt children. But in a traditional marriage that breaks up, the mother almost always gets the custody of the children, unless for some big reasons. So what about in the case of same sex marriage? Which one get's the children?It completely slanders and desecrates the institution of marriage, and is disgusting. And it's not that I don't like homosexuals or anything, because as much as I am against it, I know that people deserve rights as well.
I think that homosexual couples should be granted the legal rights of marriage, but it should not be marriage.
And that's very liberal of me. Suprising. And disturbing.
| lors wrote: |
| Anyone in a loving, commited relationship should be allowed the same benefits no matter what kind of relationship it is. Why should they be penalized for loving someone of the same sex? |
My thoughts exactly. I believe people should be free to live their life as they choose.
"and it harm non. do as thou will"First let me say, I do not and never will I have anything against homosexuality.....why a very close girl-friend of mine, told me first that she's gay about 2 days ago.
To my point, I don't see any reason why any gay couple can't marry in the eyes of the law and enjoy the benefits of any married couple, however I do not believe they should be fighting to marry in a church...this is the way I see it....I see the church as an organisation, if you feel you want to be married in their eyes, I believe by old "church law"..your meant to understand the commitment and the live as the bible has thought...however this is not the case primarily these days....but I still feel they have the right to decide who takes the service they offer. For example an insurance car company can decide they only want to supply insurance to women drivers, due to the greater risk posed by Men. I feel the church is offering a service, but they do and I feel should always reserve the right to keep that service to people going for traditional marriage the one that the chuch itself stands for. But I don't see anything wrong with marrying in the eyes of the law however.
Last edited by darrenpaul on Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:52 am; edited 1 time in total
I have nothing againts gay marriages. Although it sounds weird, but I still respect them. 
Ridiculous!!
I am really feel sorry about such thing and also would not understand what they are trying to do.
You know, they always proclaim people should have their freedom and freed from the customaries...and social ethics put too much criteria on them...And I would ask, why do they need marriage? What marriage brings them? what's their view on marriage? Marriage is the practice (custom) of a witness of the starting relationships of a man and a woman.
Marriage is an ethical issue. It should not be ruined by unethical activities.
I know nowadays, gay/ les are all around and common. But I believe, social ethics should be sticked to something right, rather than something common.
| Quote: |
| And I would ask, why do they need marriage? What marriage brings them? what's their view on marriage? |
The first poster outlined many financial and other benefits of marriage. It seems much more unethical to me to deny homosexuals these benefits than to let them be married. You don't just choose to be gay, you can't just love a certain sex if you want to. What if all of a sudden someone told you you weren't allowed to marry the opposite sex and you could never legally be with the one you love? Wouldn't that upset you?
I'm not gay but I'm a huge supporter of gay marriage.Which aspect of marriage, in your opinion, is the defining essence of it? Reading the replies in this thread, I see some for whom the defining essence is spiritual, and the pragmatic benefits secondary.
Here is Smokey's original list of the benefits of marriage
- power of attorney in the event one is incapacitated
- the right to make decisions about medical care for each other when needed
- a clear right to inheritance in the absence of a will
- in some states, the right to cohabit
- insurance coverage on the same policy
- filing taxes together
- social security survivors' benefits
There is nothing wrong with this list, but the benefits are pragmatic. What would this list look like, for those who espouse a more biblical definition? It might include expressions of love, both eros and other forms, it might include biological procreation, spiritual union by God and church, etc.
Which of these views of marriage is the defining essence in your own mind, and which is secondary to it? In other words, I might be a person who supports the right of two men to declare and to celebrate their love, but not to force insurance companies to pay for spousal benefits if a non-covered partner gets sick or injured. Or I might not want my social security money going to the bank account of a man whose boyfriend has died. So there are as many perspectives as there are people.
Most of the pragmatic benefits of marriage can be secured by two non-married people; for example, a will settles any confusion over who should receive the estate of a deceased person. And it has just as much force and effect regardless of marital status. But some of these benefits must be paid for (read: insurance) and those of us who would stop short of forcing insurance companies, their customers, and employers, to pay this money are often painted as hating homosexuals.
Personally, I am less saddened by the broadening of the definition of marriage than I am by the shift in definition from the spiritual to the pragmatic.
| darrenpaul wrote: |
First let me say, I do not and never will I have anything against homosexuality.....why a very close girl-friend of mine, told me first that she's gay about 2 days ago.
To my point, I don't see any reason why any gay couple can't marry in the eyes of the law and enjoy the benefits of any married couple, however I do not believe they should be fighting to marry in a church...this is the way I see it....I see the church as an organisation, if you feel you want to be married in their eyes, I believe by old "church law"..your meant to understand the commitment and the live as the bible has thought...however this is not the case primarily these days....but I still feel they have the right to decide who takes the service they offer. For example an insurance car company can decide they only want to supply insurance to women drivers, due to the greater risk posed by Men. I feel the church is offering a service, but they do and I feel should always reserve the right to keep that service to people going for traditional marriage the one that the chuch itself stands for. But I don't see anything wrong with marrying in the eyes of the law however. |
That's a very good point of view. But you have to realise that any company that tries to give a service to women only will be sued for being sexist. Because of the many laws these days that protect and serve the consumers, most companies do not have the authority to run their business as they wish.
It is the same case here with the Church and gay marriage. The Church stands for what the Bible preeches. They do not want to entertain gay marriage. But the public demands it and the Church is under immense pressure to adopt this and give up their age old traditions.
The Law does not protect the right of the Church to deny a service. The Law demands that the Church give the services demanded by the followers of the Church.I am not against it but in my religion, you can get killed doing that.
I am not against it and why would i be? its not like i will suddenly see only gay marriages happen.
My thoughts are this:
I feel that anyone that wants to go through a ceremony to show that they want to live and share their life together with someone for the rest of their life is fine whether they are gay or straight. I feel that marriage is a ceremony showing this.
Now should a church or religion that does not agree with gay marriage be forced to perform this ceremony in their chuch then I say no. That is their religion and they should not have to do this. I do feel though that people should accept and not be prejudiced of gay couples/people so on and so forth.
I think that government should get out of the business of marriage and make everything a "legal union" or whatever you want to call it.
Those are my thoughts.
I don't care :\
Why should it bother me anyway?
They want to get married? God bless them.
I think it's stupid that people can't get married in some states because they are the same sex. They have freedom of religion, and it's obviously not against their relegion to be gay so why do people care so much!!! My cousin got kicked out of her home because her parents (my aunt and uncle) are anti-gay. It pisses me off so much, they should be able to act the way they want!!!
Marriage has already been desecrated and graded enough by uncommitted heterosexual couples, so why the hell not?
Let me put things this way:
Gay marriage will be legalised soon - starting in industrialised nations, and eventually more conservative nations. Whether we want it or not, it's going to happen. They just blocked Civil Unions for gays in Australia, but I bet it'll be less than 2 years before gay unions will be legally recognised in such a manner.
And I will just clarify a couple of things as a Christian. Acting as a homosexual is a sin, just like stealing or adultery. Being a homosexual, I don't believe is a natural thing as much as a thing influenced by your social life and family life. It is psychological - there are of course, other cases where it is a 'natural' thing like schitzophrenia or psychosis. In which case, you can consider it a mental illness to be gay. Bipolar Syndrome (depression with extreme mood swings), for example, is a mental illness, whereas you can also experience a psychological depression caused by external events - not a mental illness.
I also do not believe there are bisexual people. They have already proven that bisexual men do not exist but I believe this carries over to women as well although in a different sense.
I know I've probably stirred up a bit of a hornet's nest but isn't that what these topics are all about? .
Anyway, it is no more sinful for a homosexual to have anal sex than it is for me to steal post-it notes from work. The only difference (I don't steal post-its btw) is that while to God each sin is equal, we as men set a sin 'scale' and judge each sin by how 'bad' we perceive it to be.
So what my point is, Christians do not have the right to criticise gay people for being sinners as we are all sinners. Marriage, on the other hand is a union which was created by God, but the thing is that in the end times the whole world is going to fall into an absolute orgy of sin and legal homosexual marriages is going to be one of the least of our concerns. To anybody who objects to gay marriages, my immediate response it 'WHY NOT?'. A legal marriage between a man and a woman - and all the financial benefits and affects that come with them - can be an important and great thing. If two men or two women share the same feelings, the same situation and the same desire... why the heck shouldn't they be able to share the same benefits of marriage?
To discriminate because of sexual orientation or the gender of two lovers is no different than discriminating because of race. It is something that, for all intents and purposes, is uncontrollable by the individual.
| David_Pardy wrote: |
I also do not believe there are bisexual people. They have already proven that bisexual men do not exist ...
Anyway, it is no more sinful for a homosexual to have anal sex than it is for me to steal post-it notes from work. The only difference (I don't steal post-its btw) is that while to God each sin is equal, we as men set a sin 'scale' and judge each sin by how 'bad' we perceive it to be.
Marriage, on the other hand is a union which was created by God, but the thing is that in the end times the whole world is going to fall into an absolute orgy of sin and legal homosexual marriages is going to be one of the least of our concerns. |
Uh, I dont even know where to begin with this one 
Could you post a reference proving there are no bisexual men? That sounds completely absurd to me. I'd like to see the prove, if you will.
All sins the same to God? Did I misunderstand venial and mortal sins?
In your last paragraph, are you saying that athiests who claim there is no god can get married, but a gay couple that does believe shouldn't?Whatever floats your boat! Makes no diff to me either way...as long as people are happy and free to make that choice if they wish.
~ To love deeply in one direction makes us more loving in all others. - Anne-Sophie Swetchine ~
I don't understand why it would bother anybody. If you're against it, then don't marry someone of your sex. End of story.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/08/30/health/webmd/main805081.shtml
As far as mortal and venial sins are concerned, I really couldn't be bothered going through that at the moment, I'm too tired 
| HoboPelican wrote: |
| David_Pardy wrote: |
I also do not believe there are bisexual people. They have already proven that bisexual men do not exist ...
Anyway, it is no more sinful for a homosexual to have anal sex than it is for me to steal post-it notes from work. The only difference (I don't steal post-its btw) is that while to God each sin is equal, we as men set a sin 'scale' and judge each sin by how 'bad' we perceive it to be.
Marriage, on the other hand is a union which was created by God, but the thing is that in the end times the whole world is going to fall into an absolute orgy of sin and legal homosexual marriages is going to be one of the least of our concerns. |
Uh, I dont even know where to begin with this one
Could you post a reference proving there are no bisexual men? That sounds completely absurd to me. I'd like to see the prove, if you will.
All sins the same to God? Did I misunderstand venial and mortal sins?
In your last paragraph, are you saying that athiests who claim there is no god can get married, but a gay couple that does believe shouldn't? |
There was some supposedly scientific study in which 100 men who claimed to be totally bisexual were placed into rooms and shown, basically, erotica. Some of it was homosexual, and some of it was heterosexual - and of those 100 men, most identified more with one or the either, but never both. I can't give a source, and the results are disputed. It may just be a rumor, but that's where the statement most likely came from.
Sins are still bad, regardless of whether it is venial or mortal. | Soulfire wrote: |
There was some supposedly scientific study in which 100 men who claimed to be totally bisexual were placed into rooms and shown, basically, erotica. Some of it was homosexual, and some of it was heterosexual - and of those 100 men, most identified more with one or the either, but never both. I can't give a source, and the results are disputed. It may just be a rumor, but that's where the statement most likely came from.
Sins are still bad, regardless of whether it is venial or mortal. |
Thanks, I still would be interested in seeing the study, if David could find it.
Since sin has been brought up, I gotta ask this again. Why is it so common that some christians rant on something being sinful? If the "sinner" is a christian, all his sins are forgiven, and it would seem to be his issue to deal with. If the "sinner" isn't a christian, then it doesn't matter whether they sin or not, eternal salvation is denied anyway. It has always seemed odd to me when christians accuse non-believers of sinful behavior instead of converting them first and THEN pointing out the sin. What am I missing?I posted the link to an article on it in the post just prior to Soulfire's post, you both missed it :p
I have learned a lot in recent months about being a Christian at my church, and it basically boils down to we're supposed to spread the gospel, not tell people they're sinners (because we are all sinners too) and to simply do our best to let God's influence on our life shine through.
If people have questions about sin, then most of us will be happy to provide an answer. Unfortunately, 99% of people who claim to be Christians rarely take note of the most important things about being a Christian. It's like conflicts between denominations - we're all different people, God doesn't expect us to believe exactly the same things. It all comes down to what He has planned for you as an individual, which is different to His plan for me.
Mmm... tangent...
I think religion has destroyed us all, and has kept us in a little glass box for thousands of years. Who cares what people do or if they're gay. If it wasn't for religion, more people would be open minded, unfortunately that isn't the case. I'm glad they're fighting for gay rights.
*throws up in the face of close minded people*
If it wasn't for religion, mankind would have wiped itself out by now.
| David_Pardy wrote: |
I posted the link to an article on it in the post just prior to Soulfire's post, you both missed it :p
I have learned a lot in recent months about being a Christian at my church, and it basically boils down to we're supposed to spread the gospel, not tell people they're sinners (because we are all sinners too) and to simply do our best to let God's influence on our life shine through.
If people have questions about sin, then most of us will be happy to provide an answer. Unfortunately, 99% of people who claim to be Christians rarely take note of the most important things about being a Christian. It's like conflicts between denominations - we're all different people, God doesn't expect us to believe exactly the same things. It all comes down to what He has planned for you as an individual, which is different to His plan for me.
Mmm... tangent... |
Yep, I missed that link completly 
Thanks.
Just for the record, I found it on my own also. What I saw was a sample of 101 men, roughly 1/3 straight, 1/3 gay, 1/3 bi. So the number of bisexuals was only about 30. The report said about 1/3 of each group did not respond in any way to the any of the erotica shown... So, and I'm pretty tired here myself, it would seem they based their results on about 20 guys. I don't think I'd use this study to "prove" bi-sexual men don't really exist. | David_Pardy wrote: |
| If it wasn't for religion, mankind would have wiped itself out by now. |
You're right, but some religions allow themselves to kill. So either way we are wiping ourselves out. *sigh* I couldn't rant for hours, instead I'll just stay away from this topic and let the world fall apart.Mankind won't exist on this planet for much longer in its current state.
If you study Revelation and the books of Isaiah and Ezekiel you will see just how much current events are falling into line with what has been prophesied. The legalisation of gay marriage is just another prophecy fulfilled from the book of Revelation.
It's interesting. As a Christian, I've been told I was close minded. Nobody heard my views, nobody even talked to me, they just said that merely because I am Christian - I am close-minded. To me, they are being more close-minded than any religion is.
So, even without religion people are close-minded. And it's not just religion that is the source of an anti-homosexual sentiment. Homosexuality is (regardless of whether you support it or not) abnormal and unnatural. It is not normal to be homosexual. It is against nature to be homosexual. I'm not saying it's good or bad, I'm just saying what it is. And it's that abnormality that most people who do not support gays look at. Religion has nothing to do with it in many cases. In some it does.
| David_Pardy wrote: |
Mankind won't exist on this planet for much longer in its current state.
If you study Revelation and the books of Isaiah and Ezekiel you will see just how much current events are falling into line with what has been prophesied. The legalisation of gay marriage is just another prophecy fulfilled from the book of Revelation. |
I seem to remember reading that people have been interpreting those books as pointing to the imminent end of the world for almost as long as the church has been around...Time will tell, eh? | Soulfire wrote: |
It's interesting. As a Christian, I've been told I was close minded. Nobody heard my views, nobody even talked to me, they just said that merely because I am Christian - I am close-minded. To me, they are being more close-minded than any religion is.
So, even without religion people are close-minded. And it's not just religion that is the source of an anti-homosexual sentiment. Homosexuality is (regardless of whether you support it or not) abnormal and unnatural. It is not normal to be homosexual. It is against nature to be homosexual. I'm not saying it's good or bad, I'm just saying what it is. And it's that abnormality that most people who do not support gays look at. Religion has nothing to do with it in many cases. In some it does. |
No, christians don't own the market on close-mindedness . It is universal, I think.
That said, I have to dispute your statement of it's being unnatural. Wrong place to argue this, as it's been beaten around in another thread, but that statement can't stand as a fact unless you really qualify what you mean by "unnatural". Discussion on homosexuality being unnatural | HoboPelican wrote: |
I seem to remember reading that people have been interpreting those books as pointing to the imminent end of the world for almost as long as the church has been around...Time will tell, eh? |
That's correct, but there is much more evidence to support these events in modern times than there was back then. For example, it also says in Revelation of when the Antichrist kills the two prophets that "The whole world will see it". How is this possible? Television. Not possible in earlier times.
But anyway, this is a completely different discussion.
Homosexuality is not inherited genetically - either through a defect or otherwise - which can certainly lead us to believe that it is a mental condition, either medical or externally influenced.
I mean that in the nicest way possible of course. | David_Pardy wrote: |
...
Homosexuality is not inherited genetically - either through a defect or otherwise - which can certainly lead us to believe that it is a mental condition, either medical or externally influenced.
I mean that in the nicest way possible of course. |
Of course! I guess I don't see it that way though. I tend to see it, maybe incorrectly, as a preference. I have a non-genetic preference for non blondes. Can't help it, it is just part of me. I don't see sexual orientation as very different.we should let all people live how they want as long as it dose not cause harm to any one else. that being said i do aprove of gay sexual activities. that still dose not stop me of seeing the as a fellow human. what 2 concenting adults do in the privacy of there on home is there bussniss.
I think that if they want to married i don't see problem while don't affect my community, myfriends, mi family and don't kissing public....
The gays and lesbian should be have a place for life, commerce, shows, restaurants, beach and all necesary, but very far away and that no have any contact with us the normal people...
| jaime wrote: |
I think that if they want to married i don't see problem while don't affect my community, myfriends, mi family and don't kissing public....
The gays and lesbian should be have a place for life, commerce, shows, restaurants, beach and all necesary, but very far away and that no have any contact with us the normal people... |
Us normal people want nothing to do with you, son | jaime wrote: |
I think that if they want to married i don't see problem while don't affect my community, myfriends, mi family and don't kissing public....
The gays and lesbian should be have a place for life, commerce, shows, restaurants, beach and all necesary, but very far away and that no have any contact with us the normal people... |
How will them kissing in public affect your "community", please enlighten me. Not that some of us would turn hetero or vice versa, don't tell me you believe in that.
I think you are the one that should be very far away as u put it, or is any public place yours, so you can actually order people around? Don't even get me started on "public places are for normal people" 
Me seeing two men or women kiss is like seeing someone take a dump in the middle of the street and then eat it. I find it visually disturbing on a level completely different to things like a car crash, blood, etc.
I know not everyone shares the same view, but there are many straight people who are disgusted by two people of the same sex swapping saliva and don't want to see it - whether they have anything against gays or not.
| jaime wrote: |
I think that if they want to married i don't see problem while don't affect my community, myfriends, mi family and don't kissing public....
The gays and lesbian should be have a place for life, commerce, shows, restaurants, beach and all necesary, but very far away and that no have any contact with us the normal people... |
I smell discrimination and segregation.
I don't think a sexual orientation cause a threat to society. Perverts are more of a threat! If we are going to segregate anyone, we should put perverts, rapists, and child molesters in a different island where they can have fun all day. Was not serious... But there is a potential danger when one is obsessed with something.I'm not racist...
I don't have nothing againsts the gays or lesbian...can live as better it seems to them. I don't discriminate a gay for his sexual identify... I can pass alongside and i don't see problem...
The problem radic in... In my society a gay is a pervert that try to induce have sex with boys between 11 and 14 years... I listened cases of lesbian that search girls.....
Many people have seen gays kissing in front of a boys with the intention on induce to his sexual practices...
Where i don't see problem, if a gay have a parthner and have a normal life avoiding this things...
And many gays are perverts... obvious not alll...
| jaime wrote: |
The problem radic in... In my society a gay is a pervert that try to induce have sex with boys between 11 and 14 years... I listened cases of lesbian that search girls.....
Many people have seen gays kissing in front of a boys with the intention on induce to his sexual practices...
And many gays are perverts... obvious not alll... |
Sorry, man, but all those are completely wrong stereotypes created by homophobics. The vast majority of gays do not prey on underage kids or try to entice them into an evil live style. I'm sure some do, but straight people do it to, and probably in similar percentages. Think about it, when you were a kid , if you saw two guys kissing, would that make YOU want to do it?
Would it be out of line for me to ask you where your society is? | HoboPelican wrote: |
| jaime wrote: |
The problem radic in... In my society a gay is a pervert that try to induce have sex with boys between 11 and 14 years... I listened cases of lesbian that search girls.....
Many people have seen gays kissing in front of a boys with the intention on induce to his sexual practices...
And many gays are perverts... obvious not alll... |
Sorry, man, but all those are completely wrong stereotypes created by homophobics. The vast majority of gays do not prey on underage kids or try to entice them into an evil live style. I'm sure some do, but straight people do it to, and probably in similar percentages. Think about it, when you were a kid , if you saw two guys kissing, would that make YOU want to do it?
Would it be out of line for me to ask you where your society is? |
I don't have nothing againsts the gays but i hate the perverts and the perverts can be gays or not...
Zorry, but you are wrong. Depend of the society can see cases... In latinoamerica there are many cases where this is common, Probably in Europe not...well I think marriage is fine, I really dont care if people marry their dogs, just keep it off my lawn
In my personal Opinion, I hate this Concept....
Like charges should repell
and
OFC,
Unlike CHarges should attract !!!!!!!!!
Hope you all understand, what i said....
Keep smiling 
) | indianinworld wrote: |
...
Like charges should repell
and
OFC,
Unlike CHarges should attract !!!!!!!!!
Hope you all understand, what i said....
Keep smiling ) |
God lord, now we are equating human interactions with physics principles?
Are we next going to hold up the nucleus of the atom to support bisexual orgies? i think this is a moral question like a moral issue.
as a Christian, i believe in 'Adam and Eve' - not 'Adam and Steve.'
besides sex, i think that kind of a lifestlye is gross and immoral and un-natural. someone told me even animals are not gay. {what do you think?}
well, speaking of sex, they may have pleasure but they would have to adopt to have kids, so troublesome. hahaha.
anyhow, personally i don't agree with it, and we can agree to disagree, we don't have to fight this or debate. this is where i stand. this is where i will stay. thanks.
I accept the natural (men and woman) but the 'respect' to the moral. Everyone do with your body that better it seems to him. While don't affect to us, no problem.
| mikewould wrote: |
i think this is a moral question like a moral issue.
as a Christian, i believe in 'Adam and Eve' - not 'Adam and Steve.'
besides sex, i think that kind of a lifestlye is gross and immoral and un-natural. someone told me even animals are not gay. {what do you think?}
|
FYI - it is well documented in other animal species. Check out the thread "is homosexuality biologically natural" HereHow about we don't bring religion into every single subject around here...
On the topic itself, same-sex marriages should be allowed. If two men or two women love each other and want to make it official by getting married, why should they be stopped? Would it bother you to see 'em getting married?
C'mon people... It's not like they'll be making out in your living room if they get married...
Yeah, I have never understood this obsessive need to eradicate anything different from what we believe or want. You hear how allowing gay marriages will destroy "family values" or the "institue of marriage", but no one has every made it clear to me how the two are related. Can someone explain this to me?
HoboPelican...
A question with all respect...
Are you gay?
Nope, straight as you can get. Currently married for about 15 years. Of course, I am often seen carrying a purse, but that is just part of shopping with the wife
Does it seem odd to you that a straight guy would be vocally in favor of gay rights? I also am a strongly against racial prejudice and for women's rights even though I'm a white guy in America. I just think people are all pretty much the same once you get to know them. I don't really care for it, i'm not homophobic but I just dont care for it. If two people are in love they marry but when it comes to gay men makes no difference except for the fact that they're gay.
People has different tastes or thoughts and minds about the world, we should respect that and let them be, gay marriage isn't any different from regular marriages.
What you do is your business, no one has the right to take that away. Separation of religion and state....the government has no right whatsoever to tell you oh you can't marry because you're the same sex. I DO NOT CARE i fyou're a dude and a dude, or a girl and a girl, you have the same rights as everyone else. Have a nice day.
Well I don't agree with it. So far for what everybody thinks, it seems that everybody can do whatever they want, and/ they don't care about what everybody else is doing. Isn't there a principle to follow? Isn't there a law higher than us that we all humans should follow? I believe you HAVE TO care. I believe that you CANNOT do whatever you want. I believe gays cannot marry because it's not meant to be. It's not because the Church says so, or because the government says so, but because of something higher. Somethings are meant to be and some are not.
| Zug Zug wrote: |
| What you do is your business, no one has the right to take that away. Separation of religion and state....the government has no right whatsoever to tell you oh you can't marry because you're the same sex. I DO NOT CARE i fyou're a dude and a dude, or a girl and a girl, you have the same rights as everyone else. Have a nice day. |
Corrects,
But what does this have to do with ‘gay marriage’? | Mrs Lycos wrote: |
| Well I don't agree with it. ....I believe that you CANNOT do whatever you want. I believe gays cannot marry because it's not meant to be. It's not because the Church says so, or because the government says so, but because of something higher. Somethings are meant to be and some are not. |
And this higher power that speaks to you directly is more correct than the higher power that speaks to others saying that gay marriage is good and approprate?Yes it is. Because that "power" that you say considers gay marriage "good and appropriate" also considers that nobody should care about nobody's lives except if that affects "them", and that idea that is the most selfish thought ever. "Freedom for all as long as they don't disturb me" is an easy position and the most common nowadays.
Freedom is not doing whatever you want, but doing what you must- because that's the only thing that's "good and appropriate".
Excellent point Mrs Lycos.
| horseatingweeds wrote: |
| Excellent point Mrs Lycos. |
Whats so excellent about it? All these "we don't have real arguments so we start talking about higher power" arguments are weak and pointless. Live and and let live there is all to it. | horseatingweeds wrote: |
| Excellent point Mrs Lycos. |
Bordering on spam here. Maybe you could amplify on why you agree?
@ Mrs. Lycos - I think you are making a huge assuption that those who think gay marriage is not an issue are thinking only of themselves. In my experience, those who support issues like this are some very fine, caring people. They aren't selfish, self-centered people who only care about thier own lives. They are involved in the community (when close minded people don't make that impossible) and are very compassoinate.
Am I wrong to assume the Higher power that speaks to you is the Christian God? If so, why is it that some christians don't see it as being an issue. Are they wrong and you right?
No disresect meant, I just think that we spend to much time finding fault in others lives instead of trying to live in peace with those around us.Im not sure if my opinion on this matter has been shared at some point before this post or not. Its a little much to read through to find out. My point is simple enough though.
I assume were talking about marriage on a legal scale primarily here yes?
If so then I think that its the place of the government to serve ALL of its citizens. If its citizens show a need for this kind of union becoming common place then its there job to make it safe and accessible to the public. Now this is taking into account that the government in question is not a specifically religious one. It would have to be a government with a separation of church and state.
Now the question of marriage does bring up "religious" questions. I think marriage is a particularly religious tradition. At-least in its earliest manifestations. Granted its a rite shared by many different groups its something of a spiritual experience. A union before some divine force or something?
On the subject of religions involvement on the subject. I do not believe that its the place of the government to tell any religious body what they can and can not do in that respect. Its the right of said group to make there own decision on that. If there doctrine says one thing or the other its there doctrine and there decision.
Strictly speaking on a legal level though "SERVE YOUR CITIZENS" Thats what we pay you for!
pretty cut and dry for me! don't understand the need for so much debate : )
If the majority of people on here have no problem with gay marriage. Let's scale down the popularity of the world to firhost members, then probability would say that the same percent of people wouldnt have a problem wiv gay marrage either.
So why is it still illegal in such places as the UK?
Not that i mind, seen as i dnt plan on getting married to a bloke. But i have gay friends.
Hammy.
I just don't see what the big deal is with it. One day gay people will have enough power to have the right to marry.
I'm all for it. They have the same right as the rest of to live life miserably. Plus it would help greatly with overpopulation. I've been a bit blunt but all in all just live life.
| jipmerite wrote: |
So what does happen when a gay couple wants to divorce? What about Alimony? Who pays who; since both are males/Females? In a traditional marriage, the Male pays alimony to the female. So what about in this case?
The only way for a gay couple to have children is to adopt. It is now possible for same sex couples to adopt children. But in a traditional marriage that breaks up, the mother almost always gets the custody of the children, unless for some big reasons. So what about in the case of same sex marriage? Which one get's the children? |
I believe that in Mass. and Canada, there ways to dissolve a gay marriage.
In regards to alimony, courts no longer view the female as any more deserving of alimony than the male, so it's a moot point. Whether a divorced spouse gets alimony is based on several things, but gender isn't one of them.
Adopting a child is NOT the only way for a gay couple to become parents. Donor insemination and surrogacy are highly popular methods for lesbian and gay men who want to become parents. Furthermore, there are sometimes children from prior marriages, so there are many blended gay families just like in the straight world.
Gender of the parent is also not used as a factor in deciding child custody anymore. Rather, who has been the primary caregiver is often considered...yes, usually this is the mother, but it is sometimes the father.
Basically, gender shouldn't have anything at all to do with the questions you raised. So...the answers aren't any different for a gay couple than for a heterosexual one. | David_Pardy wrote: |
And I will just clarify a couple of things as a Christian. Acting as a homosexual is a sin, just like stealing or adultery. Being a homosexual, I don't believe is a natural thing as much as a thing influenced by your social life and family life. It is psychological - there are of course, other cases where it is a 'natural' thing like schitzophrenia or psychosis. In which case, you can consider it a mental illness to be gay. Bipolar Syndrome (depression with extreme mood swings), for
Anyway, it is no more sinful for a homosexual to have anal sex than it is for me to steal post-it notes from work. The only difference (I don't steal post-its btw) is that while to God each sin is equal, we as men set a sin 'scale' and judge each sin by how 'bad' we perceive it to be.
So what my point is, Christians do not have the right to criticise gay people for being sinners as we are all sinners. Marriage, on the other hand is a union which was created by God, but the thing is that in the end times the whole world is going to fall into an absolute orgy of sin and legal homosexual marriages is going to be one of the least of our concerns. |
Hmm... well, I am gay and a Christian. No, they're not exclusive of each other, believe it or not 
So I will clarify a couple things of my own.
Being gay is not a sin. I will even go so far as to add "in my opinion" to that statement, though you didn't do the same. I'm sure you believe whole-heartedly that your truth is the REAL truth, but let's face it - most people think their own beliefs are the only right ones, especially when it comes to religion.
Many people will agree with you. Many people will agree with me. Sure, we could go back and forth debating the issue, but is it really going to change anyone's mind? Religious prejudice is a deeply engrained thing. Most people are too afraid to really consider an opposing argument because it would force them to change their world view in some small way...and that's a very uncomfortable process.
Being gay is also not a mental illness. The APA stopped classifying it as a mental disorder in 1973 - for good reason. I could be extremely insulted that somebody in this day and age still spreads that sort of misinformation, but what good would that do? None at all. So I guess I wrote all that just to say:
I respectfully disagree to me, gay is okay if they do not affect my life, as i am not gay. So, for agay marriage, it's only a further step after two people get involved, just like normal man and woman couple. i don't see any problems in it. But it's only of 2 people. If they wanna adopt a child and form a so-called complete family, i am against. Because it's not good to that child. It's not a normal family with father and mother, but 2 fathers. How would the child think ??? and s/he maybe discriminated by his/her classmates and surrounding mates.
Well I'm pro gay marriage. But you know official marriage not a marriage in a church, I don't why it would be so disgusting against the wedding law. Few years ago it was disgusting for a White to marry a Black, it was against the "sacred law of marriage", now it's normal. So why is there such a problem about gay marriage?
My cousin is gay and I would love to see him married | windrei wrote: |
| to me, gay is okay if they do not affect my life, as i am not gay. So, for agay marriage, it's only a further step after two people get involved, just like normal man and woman couple. i don't see any problems in it. But it's only of 2 people. If they wanna adopt a child and form a so-called complete family, i am against. Because it's not good to that child. It's not a normal family with father and mother, but 2 fathers. How would the child think ??? and s/he maybe discriminated by his/her classmates and surrounding mates. |
(I may have mentioned this prior, sorry)
My old neighbors were gay (females, neither wore the pants, or was the 'butch' as my other gay friend puts it) had a BOY. For one of HIS birthdays they bought HIM a cookstove. 
The BOY rarely dressed like a BOY, and I can onlyl imagine how HE is going to grow up. He's probably 18 by now. I'd like to see him and how he turned out.@HoboPelican: The higher power I'm talking about is not the "christian God" as is, it's the Natural Order of things. There's a reason why there are two genders, they complement each other - and that's the topic of another thread. The thing here is that If there's a Natural Law, Legal Law cannot interfere with that, no matter how loving and caring people who make the laws are. If they're are wrong, they're wrong.
| Mrs Lycos wrote: |
| @HoboPelican: The higher power I'm talking about is not the "christian God" as is, it's the Natural Order of things. There's a reason why there are two genders, they complement each other - and that's the topic of another thread. The thing here is that If there's a Natural Law, Legal Law cannot interfere with that, no matter how loving and caring people who make the laws are. If they're are wrong, they're wrong. |
Homosexuality isn't something humankind come with, its part of the nature as well, and so its part of the Natural Order of things you are talking about. :/Well i think its wrong for gay marriage like its just not right, not natural why do you think god made adam and eve a boy and a girl a perfect match if he made a boy and a boy together or opposite a girl or a girl but he didnt so i dont think gay marrage is right.
Ok i think this is like throwing sand against a wall, this is hopefully my last post in this topic as i am really getting bored to be drawn in by the same arguments again and again.
Let me ask you lunatic07 if God thinks that gay marriage isn't right why there is such thing as homosexuality in the first place? Isn't he allmighty?
Anyway i will end this with a quote (yea as i always do, don't stone me ) Its from "The L Word" serie
| Quote: |
Dad: Don't you ever think about the day you gonna stand in the judgement before god? What you donna say to him when he opens the book of life and reads your sins?
Bette: I will say: "I am your creation and i am proud." |
That's a very good quote.
A lot of people have expressed the thought that the Govt should not meddle in a religious affair such as marriage. That is largely true.
But the problem is that what is not accepted in Christianity is so popular in the upper ranks of the Christian church. So much homosexuality and now even some gay marriages by priests and still they call themselves Christians. WHen the Pope is condemning the whole gay movement.
If a person who is a priest cannot suppress his sexuality in the name of the Church, and he feels he has to engage in sexual acts or marriage, then he has a right to do so...but outside the Church eh? If what he wants to practice is aganst an institution, he can go and do it legally elsewhere... Don't have to stay a priest of an institution when he is going againstt it's teachings
The whole point of marriage is to make a public and legal declaration that two people have chosen to spend their lives together in a romantic/sexual relationship. In my mind gays should have that right if they so wish.
| S3nd K3ys wrote: |
My old neighbors were gay (females, neither wore the pants, or was the 'butch' as my other gay friend puts it) had a BOY. For one of HIS birthdays they bought HIM a cookstove.
The BOY rarely dressed like a BOY, and I can onlyl imagine how HE is going to grow up. He's probably 18 by now. I'd like to see him and how he turned out. |
That is pretty sad 
Regardless of the gender makeup of the parents, both sons and daughters deserve male AND female rolemodels.
Most gay couples are really good about making sure their kids have same-sex rolemodels in their lives. If that is something they can't provide themselves, they have relatives, godparents, etc. to provide it by building a special relationship with the child.
Of course, this is just as important for single mothers as for gay couples. My best friend is divorced with two daughters. Their father has nothing to do with them. I can imagine they will suffer from lack of a male rolemodel, too.
Thankfully, studies show that children who grow up with gay parents turn out pretty much the same as kids with straight, married parents. The one difference most noted is that the children seem to be more tolerant of other people's differences than most of their peers. I would also be willing to bet that more of them have two-parent families than their counterparts. Most of the grown children I personally know who grew up with two gay parents are kind, confident, well-rounded adults...and, yes, all 6 of the ones I know turned out to be heterosexual.
One of the differences between straight parenting and gay parenting is that gay parents had to PLAN to have a child...usually for years before actually going through with it, whether it's through adoption, donor insemination, or surrogacy. They are almost always financially and emotionally more than ready by the time the child actually arrives.
I don't see anything wrong with giving a young boy a toy cookstove as a present. My own son loved to play with those at his preschool when he was younger. Now it's legos and gi joes and all those boy things they eventually grow into. But hey...most famous chefs are males. There's nothing wrong with a boy liking to cook (or pretending to). Sometimes, making them feel bad for wanting something "girly" does more harm than simply letting them play with what they want.
However, it sounds like your old neighbors really went to the extreme and didn't give him any proper male rolemodels at all. As I said...that's sad. I hope he turned out alright. | Sappho wrote: |
| Mrs Lycos wrote: | | @HoboPelican: The higher power I'm talking about is not the "christian God" as is, it's the Natural Order of things. There's a reason why there are two genders, they complement each other - and that's the topic of another thread. The thing here is that If there's a Natural Law, Legal Law cannot interfere with that, no matter how loving and caring people who make the laws are. If they're are wrong, they're wrong. |
Homosexuality isn't something humankind come with, its part of the nature as well, and so its part of the Natural Order of things you are talking about. :/ |
Exactly What I find the most interesting is that: the smarter the species, the higher the incidence of homosexuality in that species. Chimps and dolphins, for example...the two most intelligent species other than humans...have a much higher percentage of homosexuality than others. | jipmerite wrote: |
| If a person who is a priest cannot suppress his sexuality in the name of the Church, and he feels he has to engage in sexual acts or marriage, then he has a right to do so...but outside the Church eh? If what he wants to practice is aganst an institution, he can go and do it legally elsewhere... Don't have to stay a priest of an institution when he is going againstt it's teachings |
I agree, although I understand from personal experience how difficult it is to turn from the church denomination you grow up with.
I'm not Catholic. I was raised Southern Baptist...parochial school, church 3 times a week, the whole shebang.
But I'm certainly not going to stay with a church that teaches things so fundamentally against my beliefs about God.
I'm still with a Baptist (but not Southern Baptist) denomination. But my home church now is very accepting of ALL God's creatures. When we renew our vows, it will be in church standing in front of our pastor.
I don't believe any denominations should be forced to accept openly gay couples. There are too many churches now that DO welcome us for us to want to stay at ones that consider our families second class to the heterosexual ones.what do they want from the relationship? just sex? no child? let say there is a country call ASU or whatever.. can u imagine, if every person in this country, all of them marry wth same sex, what happen to the country after 50 years?
come on, even cow know how to search for partners. we as human should be better.
| radd wrote: |
what do they want from the relationship? just sex? no child? let say there is a country call ASU or whatever.. can u imagine, if every person in this country, all of them marry wth same sex, what happen to the country after 50 years?
come on, even cow know how to search for partners. we as human should be better. |
Did you not read Tylergram's posts? Of course, some gay couples want kids. Wanting to raise a child is also a natural thing. But these, days you don't need to have m/f sex to have one. Adoption and artificial insemination do the job quite nicely. I am still amazed that people are so offended by this? Why are we so worried about something that doesn't really affect us? | Quote: |
| come on, even cow know how to search for partners |
Cows are mostly artificially inseminated. Although you probably wouldn't describe cows as being gay, they get sexual gratification among themselves. it makes sense when you think about it. In modern farming methods the cows and bull are either kept seperate most of the time, or never even meet, so they get their enjoyment amogst themselves.
In most natural herds of animals only the alpha pair mate so the rest of the herd, if they want it, have to have same sex 'enjoyment'In my opinion people have their own rights and should be treated as equals. I have a few gay friends who are normal, so I think it should be their decision to get married.
I think that if someone wants to..then let them.
That's basically how it goes. I know we were built on christian principles and it may go against christian principles...but how many christians are hypocrites?
I have complete respect for each and every person regardless of sexual preferences. My only concern is if they wish for children - we all know how cruel kids can be - it would surely add to the complications of growing up i think.
It's interesting how there was so much initial repulsion and opposition to the gay movement few decades ago. Homosexuals simply did not dare come public. The Christian church killed and burnt at the stake thousands of them during the crusades.
But now the majority of people are indifferent. They simply don't worry about it. It's a part of life, like traffic jams. Public opinion has really changed.
Also there is this thing about being politically correct. Better to say, sure go ahead and be happy with your same sex friend than call him/her a freak and then find out she's in charge of giving you a job or something...
