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The Middle East Conflict





S3nd K3ys
[James007]
Because of the growing number of topics on the conflict in the Middle East, the moderation team made the decision to make a topic for everything concerning this matter to centralize information.

UPDATE nov '06: Any new topics on the Middle East Conflict will be reviewed and closed if the moderating team thinks it is going to contain the same discussion as a previous topic or if it devolves into flaming.
[/James007]
[Rvec]
UPDATE jan '09
This is not a sticky any more. New topics can be made about this, just don't make new topics about exactly the same thing.
[/Rvec]

-------------------

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5119732.stm

Cliffnotes:

Hammas has Israel solider.
Israel has a bunch of tanks and crap on the border ready to bomb the **** out of them.

The way Hamas has been acting over this, I think Israel will clobber the dog**** out of them regardless.

Israel will NOT be seen to be weak, and that's how Hamas has been playing this.

Should be interesting.
Biodiesel
yeah, so how will it all end?
S3nd K3ys
Biodiesel wrote:
yeah, so how will it all end?


According to my Magic Eight Ball: "My sources say 'yes'".

Who knows how it will end. But I've got a good idea how it's going to start. Shocked
Farhad
BBC reports that Isreal planes have engaged a Gaza bridge, increasing the current situation.

I think that whole area should be nuked. Because it will never, ever get resolved.
The Conspirator
Israel attacks, Palestinians retaliate, Israelis restate for the retaliation.
There are only two plausible endings.
1. Nuclear war.
2. One side says "Thats it, were not fighting any more. We don't care what you do to us. We are not fighting and were not leaving!"
Seeing as Israel is the only one that can do that and it never will, that place is going to end up a nuclear wast land.
tolgaozbek
Farhad wrote:
BBC reports that Isreal planes have engaged a Gaza bridge, increasing the current situation.

I think that whole area should be nuked. Because it will never, ever get resolved.


what a peaceful solution that you propose!!
XSTG
I don't know if it is a valuable reason to destroy three bridges and a power plant for a prisoneer...

Israel's wrong, at my opinion.
selim06
XSTG wrote:
I don't know if it is a valuable reason to destroy three bridges and a power plant for a prisoneer...

Israel's wrong, at my opinion.

I fully agree with you and I think Israel wants to destroy Palestinians and searching for new reasons...I've got bored with it and still Israel says that they are peaceful! Israel ready to kill 2000 Palestinian people for 1 prisoner. Oh man every day 100 Palestinian are killed by Israel and they say that they are peaceful forget that!
FunFunkyFritz
I'm a bit confused about the terminology used in the news broadcasts. It says that the hamas "kidnapped" the Israeli soldier. This is while Israel has more than 10 000 civilian (even children) Palestinians imprisoned. Those civilians are simply referred to as prisoners in the news.

I'd say that Israel has kidnapped those civilians. So the kidnapping score is 10000-1, hardly a just motivation to start an invasion.
S3nd K3ys
So let me get this straight...Israel was attacked by Arabs in 1948, 1956, 1967, 1968 and 1973. These attacks essentially had nothing to do with Palestinians. If the conflict there really were a Palestinian-Israeli conflict, wouldn't it be reletively easy today to stop the terror campaign the Palestinians have been waging against Israel? Wouldn't Israel just obliterate the Palestinian terrorists and kick their supporters the ****** out and send them back to Lebanon or Syria?

The only reason the conflict over there continues is because it's not just an Israeli-Palestinian conflict, it's an Arab-Israeli conflict. That's a much taller order to handle. (Just ask Dubya. Shocked ) And when you look at the whole picture, it's not just about land, it's about modern civilization vs mid-evil barbarians. You might call it an Islamic Jihad agains the Israelites.
S3nd K3ys
Oh, my...

Quote:
Home Fly-By Sends Message to Syrian Leader
Jun 28 1:56 PM US/Eastern


By JOSEF FEDERMAN
Associated Press Writer

JERUSALEM

Israeli warplanes buzzed the summer residence of Syrian President Bashar Assad early Wednesday, military officials said, in a message aimed at pressuring the Syrian leader to win the release of a captured Israeli soldier.

...


http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/06/28/D8IHC64G0.html
The Conspirator
S3nd K3ys wrote:
So let me get this straight...Israel was attacked by Arabs in 1948, 1956, 1967, 1968 and 1973. These attacks essentially had nothing to do with Palestinians. If the conflict there really were a Palestinian-Israeli conflict, wouldn't it be reletively easy today to stop the terror campaign the Palestinians have been waging against Israel? Wouldn't Israel just obliterate the Palestinian terrorists and kick their supporters the **** out and send them back to Lebanon or Syria?

The only reason the conflict over there continues is because it's not just an Israeli-Palestinian conflict, it's an Arab-Israeli conflict. That's a much taller order to handle. (Just ask Dubya. Shocked ) And when you look at the whole picture, it's not just about land, it's about modern civilization vs mid-evil barbarians. You might call it an Islamic Jihad agains the Israelites.

Arabs had every right to attack Israel, The land the makes up Israel was once rules by Arab nations and the land it self was owned by Palestinian Arabs up until the formation of Israel by foreigner for foreigners who then kicked all the Palestinian who owned out of the new Israel. So the Arab attack on Israel was legitimate unlike the formation of Israel which was not.
S3nd K3ys
The Conspirator wrote:

Arabs had every right to attack Israel, The land the makes up Israel was once rules by Arab nations and the land it self was owned by Palestinian Arabs up until the formation of Israel by foreigner for foreigners who then kicked all the Palestinian who owned out of the new Israel. So the Arab attack on Israel was legitimate unlike the formation of Israel which was not.



Oh...

wiki wrote:
For over 3,000 years, Jews have regarded the Land of Israel as their homeland, both as a Holy Land and as a Promised land. The land of Israel holds a special place in Jewish religious obligations, encompassing Judaism's most important sites — including the remains of the First and Second Temples, as well as the rites concerning those temples. [5] Starting around 1200 BCE, a series of Jewish kingdoms and states existed intermittently in the region for more than a millennium.



... I see Wink
FunFunkyFritz
Sometimes i wonder if religion really is something humanity benefit from in the long run, or if we would have been better off alltogether...

This rather silly conflict would not exist if it weren't for fanatical religous people (on both sides)
The Conspirator
S3nd K3ys wrote:
The Conspirator wrote:

Arabs had every right to attack Israel, The land the makes up Israel was once rules by Arab nations and the land it self was owned by Palestinian Arabs up until the formation of Israel by foreigner for foreigners who then kicked all the Palestinian who owned out of the new Israel. So the Arab attack on Israel was legitimate unlike the formation of Israel which was not.



Oh...

wiki wrote:
For over 3,000 years, Jews have regarded the Land of Israel as their homeland, both as a Holy Land and as a Promised land. The land of Israel holds a special place in Jewish religious obligations, encompassing Judaism's most important sites — including the remains of the First and Second Temples, as well as the rites concerning those temples. [5] Starting around 1200 BCE, a series of Jewish kingdoms and states existed intermittently in the region for more than a millennium.



... I see Wink

Ethnicity's don't own land, people and governments do. People do not have certain rights to certain land just because they are of a certain ethnicity. Jewish people do not have any more rights to that land than Christens, Muslims or any one else of any religion or philosophy.
The people who owned that land and where kicked off by the foreigner who made Israel have the rights to that land, not the foreigner who invaded and stole it and them being Jewish dose not justify steeling the land of others.
S3nd K3ys
The Conspirator wrote:

Ethnicity's don't own land, people and governments do. People do not have certain rights to certain land just because they are of a certain ethnicity. Jewish people do not have any more rights to that land than Christens, Muslims or any one else of any religion or philosophy.
The people who owned that land and where kicked off by the foreigner who made Israel have the rights to that land, not the foreigner who invaded and stole it and them being Jewish dose not justify steeling the land of others.


Um...

Huh? Confused

Who kicked the jews off 3,000 years ago?
alkady
Interesting story, They are holding the soldier for a ransom. Isnt this considered kidnapping???
The Conspirator
S3nd K3ys wrote:
The Conspirator wrote:

Ethnicity's don't own land, people and governments do. People do not have certain rights to certain land just because they are of a certain ethnicity. Jewish people do not have any more rights to that land than Christens, Muslims or any one else of any religion or philosophy.
The people who owned that land and where kicked off by the foreigner who made Israel have the rights to that land, not the foreigner who invaded and stole it and them being Jewish dose not justify steeling the land of others.


Um...

Huh? Confused

Who kicked the jews off 3,000 years ago?


Um, you do remimber that they where let back in to Jeudea?
spoon1985
The Conspirator wrote:

Arabs had every right to attack Israel, The land the makes up Israel was once rules by Arab nations and the land it self was owned by Palestinian Arabs up until the formation of Israel by foreigner for foreigners who then kicked all the Palestinian who owned out of the new Israel. So the Arab attack on Israel was legitimate unlike the formation of Israel which was not.


Forgive me if I'm wrong, as my knowledge of this particular part of history isn't great, but I was under the impression that rather than the Israelis 'kicking all the Palestinians out', the Palestinians were told to leave by the other Arab states (in 1948) in preparation for them 'driving Israel into the sea'. These Arab states then kept the Palestinians in refugee camps rather than assimilating them, the same way the Palestinian government keeps many of its own in refugee camps today. It suits the Arab nations to continue to have a 'Palestine problem'.

I'm not saying Israel are blameless either but I think we ought to keep a balanced argument!
HoboPelican
spoon1985 wrote:

I'm not saying Israel are blameless either but I think we ought to keep a balanced argument!


I love a dreamer! Hey, no one responded to the dude who was pointing out that they are asking a ransom for the soldier. Was that a point for the Israelis?
spoon1985
Is 'a point for the Israelis' a tongue-in-cheek comment?
It's hard to tell on these forums!

In all seriousness, if by the ransom he meant the release of the prisoners then yes, it is kidnapping. But then one man's kidnapper is another man's freedom fighter.

Sigh.

Israel can't release the women and under-18s now (whether or not they should) as this would be seen as successful kidnapping and would open the floodgates for many more.

I don't see any way out for the poor 19 year old in the middle of this. According to the BBC, there are over a million people in the Gaza strip, meaning that it's probably far too difficult even for the Israeli special forces.
HoboPelican
spoon1985 wrote:
Is 'a point for the Israelis' a tongue-in-cheek comment?
It's hard to tell on these forums!


Yeah, it was tongue in cheek. Maybe inappropriate since this is such a serious topic, but it was meant to lighten things up a bit. Pointless, I know. But the point was brought up and then ignored.

It would do me a world of good to see discussions where people were willing to listen and not just rant. It is the rare situation that is as simple as people make it seem. Usually blame can be shared pretty equally.
spoon1985
Good to hear - I thought it was!

Yup, there's always blame on both sides (or every side, even). Personally, I can't see there ever being peace in this region. We can hope and pray for it, and try our best to keep it as peaceful as possible. But Jerusalem is so important to both the Israelis and the Palestinians/other Arab nations.

Incidentally, I think people often confuse religion with culture. Like conflicts everywhere else, I think the problems in this region have absolutely nothing to do with religion and everything to do with differences of culture. Perhaps I'm overstating that but what I'm trying to say is that I think religion is just another aspect of the different cultures, it's just a very easy culprit to blame these days.
HoboPelican
spoon1985 wrote:

Incidentally, I think people often confuse religion with culture. Like conflicts everywhere else, I think the problems in this region have absolutely nothing to do with religion and everything to do with differences of culture. Perhaps I'm overstating that but what I'm trying to say is that I think religion is just another aspect of the different cultures, it's just a very easy culprit to blame these days.


You maybe overstating, but I think there is much truth there. Argue culture controlling religion or the other way around. Quesiton is if that is true, does that help us find a solution?
spoon1985
Awkward question: does it help us find a solution?

Erm, probably not!
Actually, I don't know. Perhaps we can stop using religion as an excuse (religions are pretty irreconcilable) and focus on the different aspects of culture - things we can respect, that sort of thing.

Perhaps we in the West could, instead of dismissing other people as Muslim fanatics, think about why these hardline Muslims are attracting young, (previously-) moderate followers of Islam. Perhaps our decadent, greedy society is also to blame.
HoboPelican
spoon1985 wrote:
Awkward question: does it help us find a solution?

Erm, probably not!
...(religions are pretty irreconcilable)


Quoting movies can trivialize an issue (heck any qoute does that) But I can't resist.

Quote:
Rufus: He still digs humanity, but it bothers Him to see the shit that gets carried out in His name - wars, bigotry, but especially the factioning of all the religions. He said humanity took a good idea and, like always, built a belief structure on it.
Bethany: Having beliefs isn't good?
Rufus: I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier. Life should malleable and progressive; working from idea to idea permits that. Beliefs anchor you to certain points and limit growth; new ideas can't generate. Life becomes stagnant.
Soulfire
The Conspirator wrote:
Israel attacks, Palestinians retaliate, Israelis restate for the retaliation.
There are only two plausible endings.
1. Nuclear war.
2. One side says "Thats it, were not fighting any more. We don't care what you do to us. We are not fighting and were not leaving!"
Seeing as Israel is the only one that can do that and it never will, that place is going to end up a nuclear wast land.

And people said I was crazy when I said nuclear war would solve everything. I think I pretty much agree with you. It's going to be a back-and-forth retaliation after retaliation, battle after battle, exhausting time. There's not much point there anymore.

You know, the U.N. could probably create the state of Palestine just as they did Israel, but I have a strong feeling that that would solve nothing. People would still fight - because that's how they've been raised, and that's what they know.

*Sighs* Troubling times ahead. I feel turbulent waters.
The Conspirator
Quote:
And people said I was crazy when I said nuclear war would solve everything.

I said that is how it would end, with the Israelis and Palestinians nuking each other. I didn't advocate nucking them.
eva789
anyone interested see this site where Ive found some factual answers to questions Ive been asking
http://www.palestineremembered.com/ZionistFAQ.html
S3nd K3ys
spoon1985 wrote:
think about why these hardline Muslims are attracting young, (previously-) moderate followers of Islam. Perhaps our decadent, greedy society is also to blame.


Because they're impressionable and immiture. Why do you think so many youths are being attracted to any other cult-like activity?

eva789 wrote:
anyone interested in some answers ps see this
http://www.palestineremembered.com/ZionistFAQ.html


There's a nice unbiased source for 'answers'... Rolling Eyes

Quote:
PalestineRemembered.com The Home Of All Ethnically Cleansed Palestinians


"Can I have a big helping of BIAS with a shit load of RACISIM on the side please?"

How bout some answers from http://www.israelremembered.com ?
spoon1985
Impressionable and immature? Yes, probably.

However, it can't help that we give these people the ammunition with which to shoot us. I'm talking figuratively here, not about where terrorist weapons actually come from.

What I'm trying to say is that:
I think a contributing factor (along with the poison spread by fundamentalists) in normal, moderate Muslims turning to more extreme forms is our society and its ills.

Is it much of a surprise when all you see (in Britain at least) is broken families, no respect, thugs/yobs, young girls wearing next to nothing and jumping into bed with men they don't know?!

I know I'm painting a bleak picture and it's not all like that but it's not hard to see how it gets twisted.
S3nd K3ys
spoon1985 wrote:
Impressionable and immature? Yes, probably.

However, it can't help that we give these people the ammunition with which to shoot us. I'm talking figuratively here, not about where terrorist weapons actually come from..


Actually, we do it both ways. We fund thier terror every time we fill up our tanks with thier oil or do their drugs.
The Conspirator
S3nd K3ys wrote:
spoon1985 wrote:
think about why these hardline Muslims are attracting young, (previously-) moderate followers of Islam. Perhaps our decadent, greedy society is also to blame.


Because they're impressionable and immiture. Why do you think so many youths are being attracted to any other cult-like activity?

eva789 wrote:
anyone interested in some answers ps see this
http://www.palestineremembered.com/ZionistFAQ.html


There's a nice unbiased source for 'answers'... Rolling Eyes

Quote:
PalestineRemembered.com The Home Of All Ethnically Cleansed Palestinians


"Can I have a big helping of BIAS with a **** load of RACISIM on the side please?"

How bout some answers from http://www.israelremembered.com ?


Don't beleve that, try this.
The people who rightfully owned that are not the not the people who live there.
S3nd K3ys
The Conspirator wrote:

Don't beleve that, try this.
The people who rightfully owned that are not the not the people who live there.


Um, this is from YOUR OWN LINK....

Quote:
the territories which came under Israeli control after the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.


So now every piece of land that was ever taken from anybody in any war any time in history belongs to the people that were there originally?

Hardly ****ing likely, friend. I think you've been hittin' that hooka pipe a little heavily.
eva789
dear mr frihoster freak Im sorry to have angered you but if yove seen it Id like to know what you find biased there( other than the heading) and you might have noticed that it was written by a jew not a 'mid-evil barbarian' as you call it.
S3nd K3ys
eva789 wrote:
dear mr frihost freak Im so sorry to have angered you but if youve read it Id like to know what you find biased about it( other than the heading) By the way you must have noticed that it was written by a jew not a 'mid-evil barbarian' as you call it.


Um, excuse me, mr New Member... but the very first sentance states:

Quote:
The Zionist FAQ section has been specifically built to counter the prevalent Israeli Zionist propaganda,


That, in and of itself, touts it's adjenda and validates my claim of it's utter bias.

If you're done wasting my time now, please stay on the porch like a good little doggy, mkthks.
The Conspirator
S3nd K3ys wrote:
The Conspirator wrote:

Don't beleve that, try this.
The people who rightfully owned that are not the not the people who live there.


Um, this is from YOUR OWN LINK....

Quote:
the territories which came under Israeli control after the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.


So now every piece of land that was ever taken from anybody in any war any time in history belongs to the people that were there originally?

Hardly ****ing likely, friend. I think you've been hittin' that hooka pipe a little heavily.


if some on put a gun to your head and threatened to kill you is you didn't give them every thing you have and you gave it to them, that means they have every right to keep it?
No one has any right to take something that belongs to some one else. war is no excuse for steeling peoples land.
S3nd K3ys
The Conspirator wrote:
S3nd K3ys wrote:
The Conspirator wrote:

Don't beleve that, try this.
The people who rightfully owned that are not the not the people who live there.


Um, this is from YOUR OWN LINK....

Quote:
the territories which came under Israeli control after the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.


So now every piece of land that was ever taken from anybody in any war any time in history belongs to the people that were there originally?

Hardly ****ing likely, friend. I think you've been hittin' that hooka pipe a little heavily.


if some on put a gun to your head and threatened to kill you is you didn't give them every thing you have and you gave it to them, that means they have every right to keep it?
No one has any right to take something that belongs to some one else. war is no excuse for steeling peoples land.


Blah blah ef'n blah. Perhaps you have missed the last 3,000 or 5,000 years, but during that time, wars have been fought because of land and religion. Typically, the country that wins the war makes the rules. If you have a problem with that, get your ass out there and do something about it instead of saying it's 'wrong' and Isreal shouldn't be there.

What a lame excuse. Rolling Eyes
HoboPelican
S3nd K3ys wrote:

Blah blah ef'n blah. Perhaps you have missed the last 3,000 or 5,000 years, but during that time, wars have been fought because of land and religion. Typically, the country that wins the war makes the rules. If you have a problem with that, get your *** out there and do something about it instead of saying it's 'wrong' and Isreal shouldn't be there.

What a lame excuse. Rolling Eyes


@conspirator
S3 is not very diplomatic, but there is a point there. How far back is it rational to believe that a territory belongs to a group? Should Australia be given back to the Aboriginals? The US to the native americans? These are obvious examples, but almost every land has been taken from someone else? I think you have to belief that after a given length of time, the current occupants "own" it, dont you?
S3nd K3ys
HoboPelican wrote:


@conspirator
S3 is not very diplomatic,


Oops. You're right. Sorry conspirator.

Some times I forget I need to be civil and polite, even to ignorance that runs so deep it borderlines denial.
The Conspirator
HoboPelican wrote:
S3nd K3ys wrote:

Blah blah ef'n blah. Perhaps you have missed the last 3,000 or 5,000 years, but during that time, wars have been fought because of land and religion. Typically, the country that wins the war makes the rules. If you have a problem with that, get your *** out there and do something about it instead of saying it's 'wrong' and Isreal shouldn't be there.

What a lame excuse. Rolling Eyes


@conspirator
S3 is not very diplomatic, but there is a point there. How far back is it rational to believe that a territory belongs to a group? Should Australia be given back to the Aboriginals? The US to the native americans? These are obvious examples, but almost every land has been taken from someone else? I think you have to belief that after a given length of time, the current occupants "own" it, dont you?


Sometimes the best thing to do is not the right thing. Sometimes the consequence of the right thing is too grate.
But that doesn't mean some restitution shouldn't be made. And wrong action is still a wrong action and to forget it or worse, justifie it is far worse.
S3nd K3ys wrote:
Oops. You're right. Sorry conspirator.

Its ok, we've all done it.
FunFunkyFritz
S3nd K3ys wrote:

....Perhaps you have missed the last 3,000 or 5,000 years, but during that time, wars have been fought because of land and religion. Typically, the country that wins the war makes the rules. ....

That's the reason why we nowadays have the human rights, Geneva convention and other international laws. The military strong agressor can no longer get away with doing whatever it pleases as it could 3000 or 5000 years ago. Did you miss all that?
S3nd K3ys
FunFunkyFritz wrote:
S3nd K3ys wrote:

....Perhaps you have missed the last 3,000 or 5,000 years, but during that time, wars have been fought because of land and religion. Typically, the country that wins the war makes the rules. ....

That's the reason why we nowadays have the human rights, Geneva convention and other international laws. The military strong agressor can no longer get away with doing whatever it pleases as it could 3000 or 5000 years ago. Did you miss all that?


Um, considering what this topic is about, and what the Geneva Convention is for, I have to ask you ONE question...



Is there a GAS LEAK in your house? Shocked Shocked



No, really. You're not mentally capable of a legitimate argument here, are you? We're talking about how Israel owns (or doesn't according to some 'scholars' here) the land because they took it in a WAR.

We're NOT talking about POWs/civilians and thier treatment, as controlled by the GC. The GC has NOTHING to do with the land being 'taken'. Rolling Eyes

Another fine product of the American Education System, I presume...?
The Conspirator
Quote:
No, really. You're not mentally capable of a legitimate argument here, are you? We're talking about how Israel owns (or doesn't according to some 'scholars' here) the land because they took it in a WAR.

War is no excuse for steeling, weather taken in war or not, thats not there land and they have no rights to it.

Stop flaming people! If your not capable of having a civilised conversation, don't post.
S3nd K3ys
The Conspirator wrote:

War is no excuse for steeling, weather taken in war or not, thats not there land and they have no rights to it.
.




BUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!

"War is no excuse for steeling"???



Sorry, I'm done laughing now. That was seriously funny shit, though, I may have to put that in my sig.

Ok, BOT now...

That IS their land, they've got EVERY right to it. If you don't think they do, then by all means, you go take it from them. Just like they took it from someone. That's what wars are for... taking land and spreading religion. It's been like that for ever.

In fact, give back the land YOU'RE on, because chances are, it was 'taken' in a war or feud some time in the past and you have no right to it!! Laughing

LoL, war is no excuse for steeling, lol Laughing

BTW, my posts lose civility based entirely on the level of ignorance of the person I'm replying to. Sorry, it's the only way to get your, err, I mean, their, attention... Wink
The Conspirator
Quote:
BTW, my posts lose civility based entirely on the level of ignorance of the person I'm replying to. Sorry, it's the only way to get your, err, I mean, their, attention...

I'm ignorant? Your the one saying people have the right to steel from others.

Ok, your saying if some one put a gun to your head and and threatened to kill you if you didn't give him you're house, you give him your house so won't kill you. Thats not wrong and it belongs to him now?

Do you even have morels?
S3nd K3ys
The Conspirator wrote:
Quote:
BTW, my posts lose civility based entirely on the level of ignorance of the person I'm replying to. Sorry, it's the only way to get your, err, I mean, their, attention...

I'm ignorant? Your the one saying people have the right to steel from others.

Ok, your saying if some one put a gun to your head and and threatened to kill you if you didn't give him you're house, you give him your house so won't kill you. Thats not wrong and it belongs to him now?

Do you even have morels?


Yes.

YOU ARE IGNORANT.

Can I make it any more clear for you? Trying to compare street level robbery with full scale war is, well, IGNORANT! Rolling Eyes The land belongs to Israel until such time as some other country comes along and takes it from them, or they GIVE it away.

Get over it already. Your ignorant little posts here at Frihost are NOT going to change the rules of War. Ok?

And don't put words into my mouth, (or in my posts for that matter). I never said anything about someone trying to steel my house. Though I doubt any robber coming to my house will have a fair shot, considering he'll be largly out-gunned. Wink

:edit:

O/T If you're going to try to make quotes, please run them thru a spell checker and then a grammer checker so the rest of us can see what you're trying to say...

Quote:
"Understanding dose not come from a cingle book, acingle person or a cingle idea. It comes from many sources and many places. "
-Me


it's S-I-N-G-L-E

Wink
The Czar
My Country Doesn't Have any diplomatic ties with Israel and I just read about that soldier in the Newspaper. Those Hamas and crap are actually tearing Islam apart. I actually think that they're crap I am A Muslim and They Are But That Doesn't Make Me Want To Fight and s***. I do think that there is a conspiracy to tear Islam apart ... and look at how unjust the US is (No Offence) They've Nukes And Iran Can't Have Them Uranium Enrichment Plants For Civilian Purposes. (Offtopic I Think)
S3nd K3ys
The Czar wrote:
My Country Doesn't Have any diplomatic ties with Israel and I just read about that soldier in the Newspaper. Those Hamas and crap are actually tearing Islam apart. I actually think that they're crap I am A Muslim and They Are But That Doesn't Make Me Want To Fight and s***. I do think that there is a conspiracy to tear Islam apart ... and look at how unjust the US is (No Offence) They've Nukes And Iran Can't Have Them Uranium Enrichment Plants For Civilian Purposes. (Offtopic I Think)


I hope it DOES tear Islam apart, because then we'll be able to tell who is Islamic and who is RADICAL Islam.

I'd love to see Muslims EVERYWHERE denounce the methods the terrorists are using in their name.
The Conspirator
S3nd K3ys: There is only one excuse for steeling and that is survival. No other, not war not anything! If I raised an army and concurred where ever the hell it is that you live, would you think that is ok? If I took your home and what everything you have would that be ok? If I took you and your family as slaves, would that be ok? If I raped and murdered you mother and sister(s), murdered your father and brother(s) and chained you to my basement wall and tortured you for the rest of your life would that ok? Would all those be ok cause I did them in war?
All those things happen in war, they have been happening since the beginning of civilisation and all those who have done them have justified them in some way. But you don't know what there not right, there wrong! I have no right, weather it be in war or not to take your home, enslave you and your family, rape and murder your family, torture you! I have no right to do those and no one else dose ether. Steeling, rape, murder, slavery, torture. All of those are wrong no matter if they are done in war or not!
S3nd K3ys
The Conspirator wrote:
S3nd K3ys: There is only one excuse for steeling and that is survival. No other, not war not anything! If I raised an army and concurred where ever the hell it is that you live, would you think that is ok? If I took your home and what everything you have would that be ok? If I took you and your family as slaves, would that be ok? If I raped and murdered you mother and sister(s), murdered your father and brother(s) and chained you to my basement wall and tortured you for the rest of your life would that ok? Would all those be ok cause I did them in war?
All those things happen in war, they have been happening since the beginning of civilisation and all those who have done them have justified them in some way. But you don't know what there not right, there wrong! I have no right, weather it be in war or not to take your home, enslave you and your family, rape and murder your family, torture you! I have no right to do those and no one else dose ether. Steeling, rape, murder, slavery, torture. All of those are wrong no matter if they are done in war or not!


Oh, I'm sorry, perhaps I wrote it and didn't realize it, so could you show me exactally WHERE I said it was OK for them to take the land?

I didn't. I said that's how the game of War is played. I NEVER said I thought it was OK.

OK??? Rolling Eyes

And again, please STOP putting words in my posts. And stop trying to get the goderators to ban me because I'm ****ing right and you can't make a valid argument to save your life except to say "SHUT UP" or "YOU SHOULD BE BANNED".
The Conspirator
You know exatly what I mean. You can not justefy something just cause it happend in war! Steeling, slavry, rape, murder, torture, war dose not justefy these. War dose not elavate you from morality!

And you need to be banned for flaming!
S3nd K3ys
The Conspirator wrote:
You know exatly what I mean. You can not justefy something just cause it happend in war! Steeling, slavry, rape, murder, torture, war dose not justefy these. War dose not elavate you from morality!

And you need to be banned for flaming!


No, I DON'T know what you mean. You see, unlike YOU, I don't pretent to know what you're thinking, or how, or even IF you're thinking. Again, I am not justifying ANY****INGTHING. I'm simply saying that the land BELONGS TO ISRAEL and there's NOTHING you or I can do about it.

And you need to be banned for being IGNORANT! Rolling Eyes
Bondings
S3nd K3ys and The Conspirator, at this point you both made it very clear to all of us that you don't like each other.

Arrow Now could you please get back on topic and handle your discussion privately?
S3nd K3ys
Bondings wrote:


Arrow Now could you please get back on topic and handle your discussion privately?


Will do, boss. Sorry. Wink

Bottom line is this:

Israel got that territory after a war. Arabs want it back. Arabs will have to kick Israel's ass in order to get it, and we all know that's not gonna happen any time soon. I would venture to guess that Israel is more powerful than all of the rest of the ME combined. That WITHOUT the help of the murdering, terroristic Americans sticking their noses in where it doesn't belong. How DARE they!
FunFunkyFritz
S3nd K3ys wrote:
FunFunkyFritz wrote:
S3nd K3ys wrote:

....Perhaps you have missed the last 3,000 or 5,000 years, but during that time, wars have been fought because of land and religion. Typically, the country that wins the war makes the rules. ....

That's the reason why we nowadays have the human rights, Geneva convention and other international laws. The military strong agressor can no longer get away with doing whatever it pleases as it could 3000 or 5000 years ago. Did you miss all that?


Um, considering what this topic is about, and what the Geneva Convention is for, I have to ask you ONE question...


Is there a GAS LEAK in your house? Shocked Shocked


No, really. You're not mentally capable of a legitimate argument here, are you? We're talking about how Israel owns (or doesn't according to some 'scholars' here) the land because they took it in a WAR.

We're NOT talking about POWs/civilians and thier treatment, as controlled by the GC. The GC has NOTHING to do with the land being 'taken'. Rolling Eyes


Ok, maybe i should not have put the GC as the first example. But we ARE discussing the same thing. There are nowadays international laws, even for war. GC is just one of them.
My point was that those laws did not exists 3000 or 5000 years ago.

The Israel-Palestine border is not yet officially defined, don't you think Israel would have drawn the line already if they could? They would have, but there are international laws even Israel have to abey.

As for the rest of your rant i think you should cool down and read before posting.
S3nd K3ys
FunFunkyFritz wrote:

My point was that those laws did not exists 3000 or 5000 years ago.


Those laws didn't exist hardly 100 years ago. They've only been taken to the level they're at now in the last few decades, and the evil, terroristic murdering Americans worked hard to make it happen, even at the cost of having it be applied to real terrorists that refuse to abide by it, and in fact, use it to their advantage because they know how 'soft hearted' the evil, terroristtic murdering Americans are.

So as time progresses along, and humans become more civilized, shown clearly in their application of laws to war, time seems to stand still for radical Islam, who are, IMNSHO, nothing more than barbaronous savages sawing off heads in a public forum and paraiding dead, mutilated bodies of their enemies around the town square.

Again, those laws say NOTHING about the spoils of war.
Soulfire
So, not to dwell... but I found the "War is not an excuse to steal" thing quite comical.

How do you think our nation was formed? How do you think any nation was formed? There was war, and there was land stolen. We declared war on England, and stole land from England... Why aren't you guys ranting about us?
S3nd K3ys
Soulfire wrote:
So, not to dwell... but I found the "War is not an excuse to steal" thing quite comical.

How do you think our nation was formed? How do you think any nation was formed? There was war, and there was land stolen. We declared war on England, and stole land from England... Why aren't you guys ranting about us?


As I said, in denial lies a strong urge to proliferate justification of that denial. Even to the point of public humility.

That is a large reason why I quit the Democratic Party years ago; they cut off their nose to spite their face. It didn't matter what the facts were, if they could get somebody, anybody, to believe them, they would stop at nothing to do it. And by nothing I mean not even the well-being of this country.

So now we are faced with blind dis-allegiance and profound hatred mulling in the minds of these 'followers' who would happily make themselves heard by attempting to spew more blatent and obvious lies to publically solidify thier falsely justified assertions and perceptions of reality. No matter the cost. No matter how obvious.
HoboPelican
Soulfire wrote:
So, not to dwell... but I found the "War is not an excuse to steal" thing quite comical.

How do you think our nation was formed? How do you think any nation was formed? There was war, and there was land stolen. We declared war on England, and stole land from England... Why aren't you guys ranting about us?


Can't remember my history very well, but I think we also stole from France and Spain.... who all stole it from the native americans. Seems that very few people can say they come by their homeland honestly.

I tend to accept that the US owns this country legally even though we stole it over the years. Something to think about is if we accept that, can we condemn others for trying to "steal" land today? When is it right and when wrong?
S3nd K3ys
HoboPelican wrote:
Soulfire wrote:
So, not to dwell... but I found the "War is not an excuse to steal" thing quite comical.

How do you think our nation was formed? How do you think any nation was formed? There was war, and there was land stolen. We declared war on England, and stole land from England... Why aren't you guys ranting about us?


Can't remember my history very well, but I think we also stole from France and Spain.... who all stole it from the native americans. Seems that very few people can say they come by their homeland honestly.

I tend to accept that the US owns this country legally even though we stole it over the years. Something to think about is if we accept that, can we condemn others for trying to "steal" land today? When is it right and when wrong?


Actually, a good portion of the land was purchased. Albeit often for beeds and guns, but purchased none the less.
HoboPelican
S3nd K3ys wrote:

Actually, a good portion of the land was purchased. Albeit often for beeds and guns, but purchased none the less.


Ive got some good buds of a native persuasion who'd disagree. They claim that many of the treaties were misrepresented, coerced or arranged with people who had no right to bargain. That amounts to fraud and stealing, not a business transaction. Wink

But the point I was making is

Quote:

Something to think about is if we accept that, can we condemn others for trying to "steal" land today? When is it right and when wrong?
The Conspirator
S3nd K3ys: War dose not give you an excuse or any right to rape, pillage, enslave or steel. All of which has been done in war since the beginning of time. War dose not negate morality.

Bondings: I didn't have a problem until he started flaming me

On topic: Israel wonted Palestinian elections and they elected Hammas. This isn't about a solder, they just won't to get rid of them cause there Hammas. The solder is just a convenient excuse.
HoboPelican
The Conspirator wrote:
S3nd K3ys: War dose not give you an excuse or any right to rape, pillage, enslave or steel. All of which has been done in war since the beginning of time. War dose not negate morality.

Bondings: I didn't have a problem until he started flaming me

On topic: Israel wonted Palestinian elections and they elected Hammas. This isn't about a solder, they just won't to get rid of them cause there Hammas. The solder is just a convenient excuse.


I think I agree with Conspirator on the first point. War does not negate morality, but war is hell. I think the more you focus on morality during a war, the less you have to answer for afterwards.

But, Conspirator, tell me, do you think Israel wants Hamas gone for no good reason? Is there a history of and continuing examples of bombing attacks that might be sort of annoying to the Israelis? Not supporting anybody, just trying to say that no one in the ME is without blame.
Soulfire
Neither side is innocent, Israel and the Palestinians. Israel moves towards peace, then some Palestinian blows themself up on a bus full of Israelis, then Israel retaliates, and the cycle repeats.

As far as I know, Israel has been the one pushing for peace moreso than the Palestinians.
The Conspirator
They wonted Palestinians elections, the Palestinians had those elections. Its hypocritical for them to won;t to get rid of Hammas now.
They go what they asked for and now they don't like it, well shouldn't have wonted elections if they did;t won;t to risk the Palestinians voting for some one they didn't like.
Soulfire
Yeah, [sarcasm]It's so stupid that Israel is mad because a terrorist government was elected. Shame on Israel[/sarcasm].

I think they're more disappointed than anything. They let the Palestinians vote, and what do the Palestinians vote for? A terrorist government that will only perpetuate the problems with Israel instead of making steps toward peace.
HoboPelican
The Conspirator wrote:
They wonted Palestinians elections, the Palestinians had those elections. Its hypocritical for them to won;t to get rid of Hammas now.


Maybe you missed this in my post. I am interested in your reply to this.

Quote:
But, Conspirator, tell me, do you think Israel wants Hamas gone for no good reason? Is there a history of and continuing examples of bombing attacks that might be sort of annoying to the Israelis? Not supporting anybody, just trying to say that no one in the ME is without blame.
The Conspirator
Yes they have a good reason but Hammas is now the ruling party cause of an election that Israel wonted so to go after them now is hypocritical. They now need to deal with hamas on different terms, not as a terrorist group but a ruling party.

Like the old saying says, be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.
Soulfire
And this is just another example of how Israel is being fair to Palestine, and that the Palestinians screwed up a bit.

The Palestinians wanted elections, right? Israel so graciously grants them, even though there is no nation of Palestine. What do they do? They elect terrorists to their government. If, and only if Palestine is willing to cease terror attacks in Israel should Israel listen.

Actions speak louder than words, and CLEARLY the Palestinians aren't ready for peace.
The Conspirator
Israel fair to the Palestinians? Why do you think theres bin a downward spyierul since the 50's? The Israels do not treat the Palestinians fairly, far from it. In fact there treatment of the Palestinians has cause terrorist attacks by angering the Palestinians, who then attack the Israels, which then causes Israel to retaliate, which causes retaliations from the Palestinians. A vicious cycle. The only end is for one side to stop retaliating and Israel is the only side that can do that since the Palestinians are not organised enough to do that. But they don't.

And you forget, the preveus party (I forget its name, Arafats party) had allot of curoption and that was main reasin the Palisteins voted for Hammas.

If the Israel government wonts to stop the attacks against them than they need to go back to the original territory Israel took in there formation and stay there, not move, not retaliate and take it for a while. The Palestinians will loose interest in destroying Israel, the attacks will slow then eventually stop. That is the only way it could end peacefully.
itarlo
Unfortunatly I believe these animals who call themeselves "people" alresdy killed the poor soldier probably in the most in-humane way posible.

This crisis could be a breaking point in the Israeli Palestinian relationship if only the soldier came back home earlier. i think the israeli people would prone to make peace with Hammas after an act of generousity = saving the soldier.

The moment has passed and now its the time of guns to play the music.
The Conspirator
Did you forget that Israel stole there land, oppress there people, assassinate and murder Palestinians? Don;t forget, Israel started it and only Israel can stop it but instead they continue to oppress and offend Palestinians which pushes more Palestinians into groups like hammas.
people have the right to defined them selves from those who would steel, oppress and kill them.
HoboPelican
The Conspirator wrote:
...people have the right to defined them selves from those who would steel, oppress and kill them.


And this thought is probably being used by Israelis right now to justify their attacks. Cant you see that there is blame on both sides?

Hamas has not been without fault. Please explain to me how Hamas keeping this solider hostage and demanding a ransom is not a provacation.
Soulfire
Quote:
The Palestinians will loose interest in destroying Israel, the attacks will slow then eventually stop. That is the only way it could end peacefully.

So, that's just it? You're naive enough to think that if Israel stops, Palestine will. My thoughts are no, especially considering the Palestinian government. This will just make it look like the Palestinians are winning, then they will want more, and attack more.

You expect Israel to just lay over dead and let the Palestinians walk all over them? I doubt they will do that.

Again I say, neither side is innocent.
turbohead
They both are wrong.
For Palestine, they should not abduct the Israel Soldier.
For Israel, they should not complicate the situation.
For both of them, they shuould being restrained.
The Conspirator
The problem is, the conflict has been a cycle of retaliation for decades. The only way to end such a cycle is for one side to stop retaliating. The Palestinians are not organised enough to do so. Israel is, but it won't, the Israel government dose not won't it to end, even at the expanse of its own people.
Soulfire
You keep claiming that Israel must stop retaliation. It's not a sure thing. It just gives the Palestinians incentive to press harder, because they realize that they're winning.

More soldiers will be kidnapped, more terrorist attacks will occur, and I assure you... Israel rolling over and playing dead will not make things better. If anything, it could make the situation more unstable.

Perhaps peace is not meant for the middle east.
The Conspirator
Soulfire wrote:
More soldiers will be kidnapped, more terrorist attacks will occur, and I assure you... Israel rolling over and playing dead will not make things better. If anything, it could make the situation more unstable..

In the beginning yes but you have to think long term, but with out the Israel retaliations, the reasoning behind the attacks on Israel will weaken, then the Israels could use propaganda to weaken it even further. In time, it will stop.
bangala
I Hate Hamas, Islamists, and all violent and radical groups in the region. However, destroying bridges, roads, water and power plants will do nothing except increasing terror and empowering the islamists. If you really think that Islamists are not good for the region and the entire world, then PLEASE don't suppoet Israel in its war against innocent Palestenians. Let's all react in a more civilized and rational way so that Hamas and Jehad dissapear forever.
Soulfire
bangala wrote:
I Hate Hamas, Islamists, and all violent and radical groups in the region. However, destroying bridges, roads, water and power plants will do nothing except increasing terror and empowering the islamists. If you really think that Islamists are not good for the region and the entire world, then PLEASE don't suppoet Israel in its war against innocent Palestenians. Let's all react in a more civilized and rational way so that Hamas and Jehad dissapear forever.

Hamas and Jihad, civilized, rational?!?! Rolling Eyes Shocked

Something will give though, it's a matter of time. They're fighting a war for no reason.
The Conspirator
Quote:
They're fighting a war for no reason.

They are fighting a war against the Israel who stoled there land and oppressed there people.
S3nd K3ys
The Conspirator wrote:
S3nd K3ys: War dose not give you an excuse or any right to rape, pillage, enslave or steel. All of which has been done in war since the beginning of time. War dose not negate morality.

Bondings: I didn't have a problem until he started flaming me

On topic: Israel wonted Palestinian elections and they elected Hammas. This isn't about a solder, they just won't to get rid of them cause there Hammas. The solder is just a convenient excuse.


Lets stay on topic, Con. Why do you keep trying to tell me it's imoral? I could give two ****s if it's moral. FACTS are FACTS. The land was taken by Israel in a WAR. It NOW BELONGS TO ISRAEL until such time as it is "taken back" or given away.

End Of Story.

I don't care if it's moral.

Honestly.

I just don't ****ing care.

That's the way it is.

If you don't like it, run for ****ing President and change it!

Rolling Eyes

The Conspirator wrote:
They wonted Palestinians elections, the Palestinians had those elections. Its hypocritical for them to won;t to get rid of Hammas now.
They go what they asked for and now they don't like it, well shouldn't have wonted elections if they did;t won;t to risk the Palestinians voting for some one they didn't like.


It's not hypocritical. It would be hypocritical if they had wanted to now do away with elections. Elections are GOOD. The results of them often aren't.
Helios
"They are fighting a war against the Israel who stoled there land and oppressed there people."
How the hell did we steal it?
We bought the land from arabs not so long ago. :\
It was their decision to sell it.
After that we even fought them in several wars, if I remember correctly.
They want it back? They should buy it back or conquer it. That's the way people gained land from other people since the beginning of time.

About the soldier, we just want our soldier back.
Looking at the situation, I don't think there will be a good solution to the problem Sad

Let's just wait and hope for the best.
bangala
Soulfire wrote:
bangala wrote:
I Hate Hamas, Islamists, and all violent and radical groups in the region. However, destroying bridges, roads, water and power plants will do nothing except increasing terror and empowering the islamists. If you really think that Islamists are not good for the region and the entire world, then PLEASE don't suppoet Israel in its war against innocent Palestenians. Let's all react in a more civilized and rational way so that Hamas and Jehad dissapear forever.

Hamas and Jihad, civilized, rational?!?! Rolling Eyes Shocked

Something will give though, it's a matter of time. They're fighting a war for no reason.


Soulfire, I think you've missed the point I was trying to say.
The Conspirator
Helios wrote:
"They are fighting a war against the Israel who stoled there land and oppressed there people."
How the hell did we steal it?
We bought the land from arabs not so long ago. :\
It was their decision to sell it.
After that we even fought them in several wars, if I remember correctly.
They want it back? They should buy it back or conquer it. That's the way people gained land from other people since the beginning of time.

About the soldier, we just want our soldier back.
Looking at the situation, I don't think there will be a good solution to the problem Sad

Let's just wait and hope for the best.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Exodus
Quote:
During the war of 1948, many fled or were expelled from their homes in the part of the land that would become the State of Israel to other parts of the land or to neighbouring countries.

The UN estimates their number at 711,000 [1] while the Israeli estimate of the refugees is 520,000 and the Palestinian estimate is 900,000. The degree to which the flight of the refugees was voluntary or involuntary is hotly debated. Some cases of expulsion are well-documented, such as in Lydda and Ramle. So is the attempt by some Jewish leaders in Haifa to stem the flight [2], and that some Arab leaders called for evacuation of civilian Arabs from the war zone. How much each factor has contributed is disputed.

At the Lausanne Conference, 1949, Israel and the Arab states discussed the issue of refugees but no agreement was reached.

The exodus, and the resulting Palestinian refugee problem remain a central and controversial topic in the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians.


as for the nutrality dispute
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Palestinian_exodus
Quote:
Neutrality of this article is disputed

Some editors consider this article to be biased towards the Arab point of view because:
The fact that many Jews fled Arab countries during establishment of Israel is not mentioned.
Proposed compensation for the Palestinian refugees is not mentioned.
Israel's own argumentation for not allowing refugees to return is not mentioned.
Opinions (as opposed to facts) of pro-Arab historians and politicians such as Hanan Ashrawi are given undue weight, while persons with pro-Israeli views such as David Ben Gurion are presented unfairly.

A majority of people contributing to this article consider it to be neutral, and oppose changing the article.
Helios
We've bought many parts of it, fought wars for it and now we have control over it.
Again, if the Arabs want this land for themselves, they will have to conquer it back. That's what I think. There's just no other option.

Anyway, the problem is in the present and this generation of both Arabs and Israelis must contribute it's part for solving the puzzle.
The problem is today, and it has to be dealt with today.

Now, let's get back to the subject.
diverden
From the Library of Congress (http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?frd/cstdy:@field(DOCID+il0029)

In October 1945 the combined Jewish resistance movement organized illegal immigration and kidnapping of British officials in Palestine and sabotaged the British infrastructure in Palestine. The most spectacular of which was the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem in July 1946.

In mid-March 1946, the military prospects changed dramatically after receiving the first clandestine shipment of heavy arms from Czechoslovakia. In April 1948, the Palestinian Arab community panicked after Begin's Irgun killed 250 Arab civilians at the village of Dayr Yasin near Jerusalem. The news of Dayr Yasin precipitated a flight of the Arab population from areas with large Jewish populations.

On May 14, 1948, Ben-Gurion and his associates proclaimed the establishment of the State of Israel. On the following day Britain relinquished the Mandate at 6:00 P.M. and the United States announced de facto recognition of Israel.

The issues are religious, cultural, political, economic, etc... that involves more than two sides and not a black/white or good/bad issue.

Israel was born as a result of world guilt and their fight for statehood was not without many losses on all sides. If the solution is to Nuke them all as some have indicated, then we would be a central part of the defense of Israel since we have a treaty to protect them, ie, that an attack on Israel is an attack on the US since they are an ally. Do we want to go back to the appropriately named MAD policy ( mutually assured destruction) as we had with the Sovie Union for so many years or can the US take a more active role in the settlement?
S3nd K3ys
The Conspirator wrote:
Quote:
They're fighting a war for no reason.

They are fighting a war against the Israel who stoled there land and oppressed there people.


I just realized something... didn't Israel take (buy) that land from Jordan? I don't even think Palestine was a country at that point.
The Conspirator
Israel stole the land (and no one say bought, the only land that was bough was a little bit of land that was bought long before the war to create Israel started) belonged to the Palestinians, the Palestinians owned that land. Palestinians individuals owned , land farms, houses until Israel came along and said "No Palestinians can't live on this land any more cause its Israel now. I don;t care how long this farm has been in your family got off or die!"
S3nd K3ys
The Conspirator wrote:
Israel stole the land
...belonged to the Palestinians, the Palestinians owned that land. Palestinians




BUAHAHAHAHA!

BUT BUT BUT.

THEY STOLE IT!

BUT!

Laughing Laughing Laughing

Really, are you going to go and change the entire world? Laughing Laughing Laughing
Billy Hill
The Conspirator wrote:
Israel stole the land


Israel was created by the United Nations.

They didn't 'stole' it from anybody. I thought EVERYONE learned thta in 3rd grade history class.
The Conspirator
Billy Hill wrote:
The Conspirator wrote:
Israel stole the land


Israel was created by the United Nations.

They didn't 'stole' it from anybody. I thought EVERYONE learned thta in 3rd grade history class.

Read
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel#Background
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-Palestinian_conflict
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Exodus Neutrality disputed!
Reasons
  • The fact that many Jews fled Arab countries during establishment of Israel is not mentioned.
  • Proposed compensation for the Palestinian refugees is not mentioned.
  • Israel's own argumentation for not allowing refugees to return is not mentioned.
  • Opinions (as opposed to facts) of pro-Arab historians and politicians such as Hanan Ashrawi are given undue weight, while persons with pro-Israeli views such as David Ben Gurion are presented unfairly.
S3nd K3ys
The Conspirator wrote:
Billy Hill wrote:
The Conspirator wrote:
Israel stole the land


Israel was created by the United Nations.

They didn't 'stole' it from anybody. I thought EVERYONE learned thta in 3rd grade history class.

Read
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel#Background
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-Palestinian_conflict
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Exodus Neutrality disputed!
Reasons
  • The fact that many Jews fled Arab countries during establishment of Israel is not mentioned.
  • Proposed compensation for the Palestinian refugees is not mentioned.
  • Israel's own argumentation for not allowing refugees to return is not mentioned.
  • Opinions (as opposed to facts) of pro-Arab historians and politicians such as Hanan Ashrawi are given undue weight, while persons with pro-Israeli views such as David Ben Gurion are presented unfairly.


Really, are you going to go and change the entire world? Laughing Laughing Laughing
rafifaisal
It isn't about changing the world mate.
You should judge everyone on a same basis.
Right now Israel are in a same category as Al Qaeda in my eyes and lots of others.
They are bombing entire cities just because they are annoyed by the fact that a commando of 6 guys guys could come and attack a bataljon AND capture some of their "ellite" soldiers.
Really how far will these bombings go ? ? ?
Already the Israeli population wants to halt these bombings.

And what I find strange is that America isn't even reacting Question Question
Uhmmmm Israel is a nuclear power AND attacking another country.
isn't that worrying. Worst of all they are provocing Iran (also a nuclear power)
Oh man !!!!!!1
horseatingweeds
rafifaisal wrote:
You should judge everyone on a same basis.
Right now Israel are in a same category as Al Qaeda in my eyes and lots of others.


How is this? If you’re judging people the same you would see the difference is that Al Qaeda targets civilians and Israel only kills them accidentally when they get in the way.

rafifaisal wrote:
And what I find strange is that America isn't even reacting


This is what Americans hear,

“People killing each other in the middle-east some more, people killing each other in the middle-east some more, people killing each other in the middle-east some more, people killing each other in the middle-east some more.”
S3nd K3ys
rafifaisal wrote:
I
They are bombing entire cities


No. They're not. They're bombing communications, airports, fuel depots, and transportation.

Not to mentino they're WARNING THE CITIZENS BEFORE THEY ATTACK.

The terrorists are the ones just lobbing bombs into the Israeli cities with ABSOLUTELY NO REGARD FOR CIVILIAN CASUALTIES.

Quote:
And what I find strange is that America isn't even reacting Question Question
Uhmmmm Israel is a nuclear power AND attacking another country.
isn't that worrying. Worst of all they are provocing Iran (also a nuclear power)
Oh man !!!!!!1


We should NOT stop Israel. This has been coming for a long time. The terrorists over in the ME have gone far enough.

It's time to stop them.

As I said, this WILL NOT stop in Lebanon. It will continue to Iran and Syria and possibly beyone.
rafifaisal
horseatingweeds wrote:
Israel only kills them accidentally when they get in the way.


What ? ? ?
Accidentally ? ? ?
Oh man that is the worst excuse heard in a war.
How can you "accidenally" kill civilians when you are bombing an airport ?
Please tell me that.
It's is like killing "Accidentally" children when shooting into a candyshop

Please stop these kinds of excuses.
Israel AND the Al qaeda are terrorists and are killing innocent people.
S3nd K3ys
rafifaisal wrote:
horseatingweeds wrote:
Israel only kills them accidentally when they get in the way.


What ? ? ?
Accidentally ? ? ?
Oh man that is the worst excuse heard in a war.
How can you "accidenally" kill civilians when you are bombing an airport ?
Please tell me that.
It's is like killing "Accidentally" children when shooting into a candyshop

Please stop these kinds of excuses.
Israel AND the Al qaeda are terrorists and are killing innocent people.


Pay attention!

Israel is targeting STRATEGIC LOCATIONS.

Israel is WARNING THE CIVILIANS BEFORE AN ATTACK TO GET OUT OF THE WAY.

Israel is NOT TARGETING CIVILIANS. Even in the FEW cases where a non military target was hit, it was purposefully at a time when NO CIVILIANS WERE THERE, and typically resulted in NO CASUALTIES.

Please stop lying.
nopaniers
So that's why they have targetted residential buildings...
S3nd K3ys
nopaniers wrote:
So that's why they have targetted residential buildings...


Which ones? The leader's homes? Where NOBODY DIED except for the home?

Laughing Laughing Laughing

Nice try. Wink
rafifaisal
Where nobody died ? ?
If you read following article on the BBC site
BBC Article
you will read that the Foreign Ministry building of the Palistinian government was bombarded.
These buildings, by my modest knowledge are situated in residential areas. So how can you think that no person will be killed.
as you can read more than a dozen people where wounded, even critically wounded and will maybe die of their sustained injuries.
And this building has NOTHING to do with the Hezbollah or Libanon or terrorists.
horseatingweeds
rafifaisal wrote:
horseatingweeds wrote:
Israel only kills them accidentally when they get in the way.


What ? ? ?
Accidentally ? ? ?
Oh man that is the worst excuse heard in a war.
How can you "accidenally" kill civilians when you are bombing an airport ?
Please tell me that.
It's is like killing "Accidentally" children when shooting into a candyshop

Please stop these kinds of excuses.
Israel AND the Al qaeda are terrorists and are killing innocent people.


Good analogy.

I would say it like this though.

“That’s like accidentally killing children by cornering a mad gunman who was just killing some children in a candy store, warning the children in the candy store to get out, waiting for the kids to run out, then blowing the bastard away while in the process hitting some children that were inside protecting him”.
rafifaisal
In both cases the poor kid died.
You could have waited for a better moment to take out the bad guy and minimalise the chance of collateral damage
horseatingweeds
That’s what they did and are doing. Are you saying there would have been a better time to try taking them out?
rafifaisal
horseatingweeds wrote:
That’s what they did and are doing. Are you saying there would have been a better time to try taking them out?


Oh yes my man. Right now they are being pulled slowly into a swamp called FIBUA ( Fighting in Built up Area) or urban warfare. That is the least the Israeli want and I dont think the terrorists will be finished this way.
Look at Al qaeda and Bin Laden. He is still alive with his group and they are even more organised than before.
So noooo this is not the way.
You can't make up for you mistakes made in more than 30 years in just a short period by bombing them out.

I don't know what your military background is, if any, but it is clear to see that this is an impossible win for Israel.
The Conspirator
Exactly. And all this is doing is infuriating the Palestinians and pushing more Palestinians toward becoming militants.
Like throwing gasoline on a fire.
horseatingweeds
rafifaisal wrote:
this is an impossible win for Israel.


Indeed, but I don't think Israel is too concerned about ‘winning’. They have learned over many thousands of years of well kept history that ‘winning’ is simply surviving.

Israel has few options in this scenario. Regardless of what land they do give up they are hated by their neighbors to the fullest extent. Their tactic is to put pressure on the people and leaders with force to do something about the terrorist hiding in their homes. It has been said over and over, “this will only make things worse”. But will it? Can the Palestinians hate Israel MORE? Do the terrorist recruiters simply need more Palestinians to die in able to increase their ranks?

On this path it is true that they will eventually be engaged in an urban combat scenario. It is also true Israeli troop are well trained in this area. I would venture to call them the best.

If it starts it will never end, that is for sure. I guess they can just sit on their little beach and take their daily casualties until a second generation of peaceful Palestinians appear. Doubtful though. Rocket tend to piss people off.
rafifaisal
This hate between Israeli and Palestinians is much deeper and is not likely to be solved this way.
You can't leave a country or fall in a country whenever you want (i.e Lebanon)
And when you have decided to build a wall to keep out the Palestinians in general, you have to keep inside it too.
I don't know where this all is about to end, and frankly i don't want to know it because it will be a horrendeous end.
SainT
K3ys, there is no point in talking to these people.
Racism will always exist.

Hey, all of you anti-Israeli guys and terror supporters.
Come here to the north part of Israel for few days.
I bet you'll change your point of view in under 5 minutes.

Don't you get it?
Hizbullah is a worm that sitting in Arab guts for a long time.
They are a terror organization that's after Israel and Jews because they are simply hate us. That's it.
They hide behind your children and women to hit their religious enemy - us - the Jews. That's what it is about.
You want peace? Hizbullah and other terror organizations has to be destroyed. That's the only way.

WE are not terrorist. We want peace from all these attacks more than you because we are the ones who suffer the most.
Those Hizbullah morons don't understand diplomatic ways. We tried diplomatic ways, but more Israelis died as a result.
Those Hizbullah morons understand only force, and that's what they'll get.

All of those who complain about civilians dying:
Look, if Israel wouldn't bomb these strategic points in Lebanon, Hizbullah will stay there and MORE people will die.
It's better to kill the snake now before it bites more people.
I agree, this should have been done 30 years ago, but the past is the past and we live in the present. Hizbullah has to be stopped NOW.

And NO! We're not after Lebanon. We will follow Hizbullah even if they exit Lebanon. We will keep trying to destroy Hizbullah until that terror organization is down or until it's very very far from us.

I bet you would do and say the same if your country was bombed by more than 750 rockets in less than a week.

PS the reason why Israel started this chase after Hizbullah wasn't only because of the kidnapped soldiers, but mostly because Hizbullah bombed and was responsible for thousands rocket launches in the past several years and hundreds of terror attacks in Israel.


I think that discussing who is right or wrong is pointless.
We're only fighting with each other about a subject that we can do nothing about. We can't change the situation by talking on this forum. So it's better not to talk in order to keep the peace at leat here, on FriHost.
In any way, people are dying and it's not good.

Me? I just hope this will end soon Sad
rafifaisal
Oh yes you are.
Today an Israeli general of chief of staff said that Israel want to punish the Lebanese government for allowing the hezbollah to opperate from their teritory.
Sorry mate you are miss informed there.
Because Israel will not hesitate to punish the Lebanese citizens too.
S3nd K3ys
rafifaisal wrote:
In both cases the poor kid died.


That "poor" kid was one of the kids trying to help the guy kill the other kids.

Pay attention. Rolling Eyes
S3nd K3ys
rafifaisal wrote:
Oh yes you are.
Today an Israeli general of chief of staff said that Israel want to punish the Lebanese government for allowing the hezbollah to opperate from their teritory.


I want to punish them too. They could stop it if they wanted. They are aiding and abbeding the enemy. That's a nono in my book.
SainT
Plus, Israel won't "punish" Lebanon by brutally murdering it's citizen Razz
The hardest thing Israel can do is to damage some Lebanese official building, without hurting Lebanese people, of course.
haak_heu
There are tree opion to end this

1. israel is destroyed
2. Palaestain is destroyed
3. israel do some damage and than america come and say sease fire
S3nd K3ys
haak_heu wrote:
There are tree opion to end this

1. israel is destroyed
2. Palaestain is destroyed
3. israel do some damage and than america come and say sease fire


No. There is ONE option for this...

1)Terrorism eradicated from the face of the earth.

There's NO way these militant islamic freaks will agree to live peacefully with modern civilaztion. That has been proven again and again and again. Isreal has tried over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and keep getting attacked.

Terrorists need to be eradicated.
horseatingweeds
SainT,

What we are all REALLY worried about is the upcoming Zionist empire. All true followers of god must stop this.
Wink

rafifaisal and The Conspirator,

So it looks like we have a silly Israelite here, nice hearing from you SainT, its your chance to notify Israel of YOUR bright ideas in dealing with the terror attacks. Here is mine.

1. Start wearing missile-proof clothing.
2. All new construction should be missile proof.
3. Add a mote behind the wall, then another wall.
The Conspirator
S3nd K3ysL Do you get that the actions of the Israelis are making more thus are not helping but hindering? And that if you won;t to stop terrorism you don't help make more terrorists?
S3nd K3ys
The Conspirator wrote:
S3nd K3ysL Do you get that the actions of the Israelis are making more thus are not helping but hindering? And that if you won;t to stop terrorism you don't help make more terrorists?


No. I DONT get it.

Do you know WHY?

Because since the terror attack against Israel on 01/06/2001 in Tel Aviv that killed Jan Bloom, Pvt. Diez Normanov, Katherine Kastaniyada-Talkir, Sergei Pancheskov, and Yevgenia Dorfman, there have been 259 other terror attacks against Israel.

Israel has constantly looked for peace and been lied to by the terrorsts. Giving in or negotiating with terrorists does not and has never worked. It is viewed as a sign of weakness and only strengthens them.

Well guess what, no more of that shit. Israel will pummel them until they are incapable of attacking again, just as they should do. And I sincerely hope the rest of the civilized world follows suit and removes terrorists from the face of the earth.

Seriously, some of you need to do some homework on the LONG history of Israel and the Arabs and who wants to remove whom.
itarlo
I'm from Israel. Please help us!!! We are going to die here. We've taken 750 missiles during the last 48 hours from the north and more than 800 missiles from Gaza during the last 5 years. We have no where to run. Our lives are in seriouse danger. The terrorists are closing on us from every where. The hollocaust is going to happen again more if somebody dosn't help us soon.

Still alive
Igal
bangala
Guys I hate to sound like backing Islamists, but here is what's going on:
Israel has done the correct thing when they ended their occupation to south Lebanon in May 2000. Within few monthes, the Lebanese parties which are backed by Syria lost power and oppostion parties took power instead. Syria ended its military and political presence after huge popular protests following the assasination of Mr. Hareeri. After a free election in Lebanon backed by the USA and the west, a new government backed by USA was formed recently with the agenda of:
- Liberalizing the country
- Ending any influence of Syria in Lebanon
- removing the whippons of Hizballah party.
- rsetoring normal relationship with neighbours including Israel
Hizballa was under huge pressure to disarm specially after the departure of the syrian military forces until Israel has reacted to Hizballa by punishing the whole Lebanese people including the US backed government. Now, the Lebanese government is weakening and Hizballa is back powerfull, thanks to Israel.
Mr. Bush himself urged Israel not to weakened the newly formed Lebansese government. Unfortunately, Israel listens only to the sound of guns.
The result: The US backed Lebanese government is weaker, Hizballa is more powerful, lebanese and Israeli civilians are the victims!
SainT
אל תדאג
לא הכול אבוד...

I'm not sure about war, but this fighting has to stop now. This is becoming very serious.
The Conspirator
Which then creates more terrorist who attack Israel which makes the problem worse!
You don't salve a problem by making it worse
bangala
The Conspirator wrote:
Which then creates more terrorist who attack Israel which makes the problem worse!
You don't salve a problem by making it worse

Exctly! Israel has done a big mistake: Iran, syria, Hizballa are back in the playground of Lebanon, thanks to the new inexperienced Israeli P.M Ulmert. If Sharon was alive and in power, he wouldn't make such stupid mistake.
rafifaisal
Finally some people with common sense.
I agree completely with both bangala and the Conpirator.
The Conspirator
S3nd K3ys wrote:
The Conspirator wrote:
S3nd K3ysL Do you get that the actions of the Israelis are making more thus are not helping but hindering? And that if you won;t to stop terrorism you don't help make more terrorists?


No. I DONT get it.

Do you know WHY?

Because since the terror attack against Israel on 01/06/2001 in Tel Aviv that killed Jan Bloom, Pvt. Diez Normanov, Katherine Kastaniyada-Talkir, Sergei Pancheskov, and Yevgenia Dorfman, there have been 259 other terror attacks against Israel.

Israel has constantly looked for peace and been lied to by the terrorsts. Giving in or negotiating with terrorists does not and has never worked. It is viewed as a sign of weakness and only strengthens them.

Well guess what, no more of that ****. Israel will pummel them until they are incapable of attacking again, just as they should do. And I sincerely hope the rest of the civilized world follows suit and removes terrorists from the face of the earth.

Seriously, some of you need to do some homework on the LONG history of Israel and the Arabs and who wants to remove whom.


And there is only one gaunted out come of this, more terrorist will be made and attack Israel so instead of Israel being safer, it will be worse off.
The Conspirator
And the Israeli government dose not care, all it wont's is more violence even at the expanse of its own people.
nopaniers
Exactly bangala and Conspirator. I couldn't agree more. Lebanon has a democratically elected government, and for the first time in decades was free from occupation by either Syria or Israel. All was looking rosy, with Hezbollah even in discussion with the government about what to do about its militia. Now there's no chance of that. I feel sorry for the many Lebanese who have nothing to do with any of this.
schudder
Yeah, gotta love those religion based countries. Always fighting.
Let's just remember which country seriously overreacted to the whole situation...

Even though in the end no one will remember, they'll just remember who came out on top.... just like with most wars... Winners are right and losers are wrong...

But who's right when 90% of casualties are innocent civilians?
bangala
It's so tragic, peace was so close!
I blame Hizballa for what they did, but I blame the Israeli government even more for targeting the whole country of Lebanon. Hizballa has targetted 2 soldiers, a military target, and Israel retailiated by targeting Briges, power stations, airport, houses, etc. as if they are inviting Hizballa to target their civilians: NON-SENSE!
bangala
nopaniers: I was hoping that the US president Mr. Bush was more courgeous than other US presidents to stand against Israeli and say this time NO: I don't want you to demolish what the US has built in Lebanon, Iraq, and the region. There was a great progress there. I'm hoping now that Israelis will wake up and stop their P.M from going further and igniting a huge war in the region.
nopaniers
I agree bangala. It is one of the most infuriating things for me. A little bit of pressure from the US and Israel would have to stop, and maybe stop a war from happening and avoid a lot of needless deaths... I hope that all the G8 members (Mr Blair for example) give Mr Bush a piece of their minds.
rafifaisal
Israel are getting themselves in the same mes as America in Iraq and Afghanistan.
You tell me... did the terrorists stop in Iraq or Afghanistan ? ?? ? ?
Nope it even got wors
Evil or Very Mad

And now this inexperienced israeli PM is making the same mistake.
LostOverThere
War is horrible and wrong.
Wars solves nothing at all, it just leaves more people dead.
In my heart and many other people, the winner of would is the country who runs away.
itarlo
Runs away where? I live in Israel and i have no where to run. We are being massivly attacked right now from north and south. People don't go to work and stay in safe rooms all day. Should I run to the sea? Should I live under water??
Soulfire
Well, peace isn't unachievable, but it seems only a vision now to most. Israel can't just do nothing, then the terrorists will think that they are winning, and demand more. I believe this is a policy of appeasement... giving in to the terrorists. It's how the world tried to deal with Hitler, and well, we all know how well that turned out...

I think pointing fingers and trying to blame people will do nothing for anyone.
The Conspirator
Soulfire wrote:
Well, peace isn't unachievable, but it seems only a vision now to most. Israel can't just do nothing, then the terrorists will think that they are winning, and demand more. I believe this is a policy of appeasement... giving in to the terrorists. It's how the world tried to deal with Hitler, and well, we all know how well that turned out...

I think pointing fingers and trying to blame people will do nothing for anyone.


The problems Israels actions are creating more militants.
What most people don't get is that there are many ways to fight and the are not all literately fighting. Just look at Mahatma Gandhi, he and his followers fought the British with out using violence and won.
When fighting loosely organised militant groups the best tactics are tactics that make you look like the good guy and demonise your enemy, even too your enemy.
Israels tactics are doing the opposite, too many Israels tactics have demonise Israel and thus made those who are fighting Israel look like hero's thus leading more to join those militant groups and fight Israel.
diverden
My momma always said it takes two to make a fight but in this case it is way more than two sides. If the US had the political capital it could get all of the sides in a room and knock some heads together. We are the biggest gorilla in the world, but the president/Congress have spent its influence and pissed off or pissed on most of the world so it is hard to exert our influence. Instead we beg China to help us with N. Korea and throw hollow threats at Iran and Syria while we evacuate US civilians.
nopaniers
You're right. That is what it needs. Someone to get everyone sitting in the same room and sorting this out. It's not going to happen though... calls for a ceasefire have fallen on deaf ears and I don't think that either Hezbollah or Israel really want to listen... and for that matter I don't think the US administration cares. If they pull Israel in they will annoy the US religious right, and lose votes in the upcoming polls. Meanwhile more people are dying.
Timmay
I am deeply concerned about the conflict right now in the middle east. The conflict between Isreal and Lebanon is a shame. What really concerns me is that non of the Western Media is reporting with any specifivity what occurred that caused the Isreali soldiers to be kidnapped in the first place. They merely say it was a Hezbollah "raid." However what were they raiding, why? What is being hidden from us?

Please don't get me wrong I am as patriotic as the next American, however I do not think that we are hearing the whole story, and there are certain important aspects of this being kept from us. Israel is bombing the infrastructure of Lebanon and then saying it is going after Hezbollah, if that were the case, then Hezbollah targets would be the only targets being bombed, but they are not. They are bombing airports, roads, bridges and other valuable infrastructure necessary for daily life by law abiding lebanonese citizens.

I am deeply concerned that Israel sparked this war as a war of opportunity rather than necessacity.
HoboPelican
It is really a horrible situation with no easy answer. At this point, both sides have abandoned any claim to the moral high ground and I only have have sadness for the civilians involved.

If anyone cares to read how both sides stack up on the legalities in regards to international law, try this link. http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/HRW/95cf815886b30b0097b1aed72d24d864.htm

This is the sort of situation where a strong UN could step in and force a cease-fire, but I don't see that happening.
CCFCExile
This whole conflict didn't start with Israely soldiers being kidnapped, that was an excuse used by Israel to kick off. This conflict has been raging for years. If the world governments (pre 1940's) stuck to the agreed protocal of giving the Jews Madagascar instead of the British handing over Israel to the Jews then this never would have happend.

An agreement between Britain, France, Germany, USA and others was met and France was going to hand over Madagascar to give the Jews a place to live, since pre world war 2 not one single country's people actually liked the Jews and wanted them out. Everyone backed out at the last minute except Germany who had started interning them into concentration camps and then realised there was nowhere to put them... So the were killed by the Germans instead.

This is a a researched conclusion and I'm not slating Jews at all, just giving an opinion.

Can you blame the Arabs for being a bit miffed by having their country stolen from them then being bullied by the thieves! This is infact, a global problem and caused by such.

So, What is the answere. This generation of Jews only know Israel as home and that is what it is and the Arabs see it as stolen land which, also, is what it is?

Debate Open!
mephisto73
The present situation is the direct result of the Israeli occupation of Gaza since the Palestinian elections earlier this year when the palestinians had the audicity to elect Hamas with 30% in a democratic election. This resulted in an effective siege by Israel of Gaza and an effective genocide of the people living there. This of course is not reported in western media at all, where the israelis are portrayed to be innocent victims of random violence from islamic groups.

For those interested in more complete reporting you can look here:
http://www.zmag.org/weluser.htm
nopaniers
HoboPelican, looks like you got your wish. The UN is stepping up. If the world community (notably the US) back them there's a possible end to this horrible chapter. Israel would have no excuse.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5186474.stm
HoboPelican
mephisto73 wrote:

For those interested in more complete reporting you can look here:
http://www.zmag.org/weluser.htm

Why is it people think news that is slanted to their way of thinking is "more complete"? Sorry, Meph, but with article titles like "Israel's latest bureaucratic obscenity" and Chomsky as a contributor, I don't think that site can be considered objective.

nonpaniers wrote:
HoboPelican, looks like you got your wish. The UN is stepping up. If the world community (notably the US) back them there's a possible end to this horrible chapter. Israel would have no excuse.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5186474.stm

I hope they don't wait too long. If they DO act, I hope they put mostly French troops in Lebanon instead of U.S. With the U.S. support of Israel, our troops would not be viewed kindly and would likely be targets for more violence.

BTW-My REAL wish is that a lasting solution could be found. I'm such a dreamer.
The Conspirator
I wouldn't worry about that, between Iraq and Afghanistan we don't have the tropes to spare.
bangala
nopaniers wrote:
HoboPelican, looks like you got your wish. The UN is stepping up. If the world community (notably the US) back them there's a possible end to this horrible chapter. Israel would have no excuse.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5186474.stm


nopaniers: From the same source you're quoting, Israel rejected the UN offer:
Quote:

Israeli spokeswoman Miri Eisin told the BBC it was too early to consider the deployment of a new force.

Israel insists on punishing the whole country of Lebanon.
So far, more than 150 civilians were killed and hundreds wounded from Lebanon and only ONE Hizballa fighter was killed. Israel is targeting mainly civilian targets.
S3nd K3ys
bangala wrote:

Israel is targeting mainly civilian targets.


Laughing Laughing Laughing

Disinformation owns you.

bangala
S3nd K3ys wrote:
bangala wrote:

Israel is targeting mainly civilian targets.


Laughing Laughing Laughing

Disinformation owns you.



I'm quite well informed S3, Hizballa has lost almost nothing, today it's announced that a 2nd fighter may be killed. On the other hand, Israel casualties so far are:
12 soldiers confirmed killed
4 soldiers lost
2 soldires captured
1 military ship hit and damaged.
You can count civilians on both sides and read about targets of Israeli raids and figure out yourself.
Presently, around 1/4 of Israelis are living in shelters and all tourists were evacuated. Thousands of Isralies are demonistrating against their PM and it's just the FIRST week of war. This is a real war S3, not a video game.
S3nd K3ys
bangala wrote:
S3nd K3ys wrote:
bangala wrote:

Israel is targeting mainly civilian targets.


Laughing Laughing Laughing

Disinformation owns you.



I'm quite well informed S3, Hizballa has lost almost nothing,


Sure you are, kid, sure you are...

Bridges, seaports, military coastal radars and Hezbollah offices all attacked, fuel storage tanks destroyed, cutting the main highway to Syria, communications etc etc etc...

Lebenon = getting cut off from the rest of the world.


Laughing Laughing

Say g'nite, Hesbollah. Wink

SainT
S3nd K3ys wrote:
bangala wrote:

Israel is targeting mainly civilian targets.


Laughing Laughing Laughing

Disinformation owns you.



I'll second that...

btw, bangala, you should try and live in Israel for a year or two, then you'll change your point of view about your idolized Hizbullah.

Hezbullah is almost dead by now.
All of their offices are destroyed.
Now, Israel is targeting weapon supplies and rocket launch stations.
Beirut is damaged BECAUSE OF your idolized Hizbullah, and not because Israel wanted to.
S3nd K3ys
SainT wrote:

Beirut is damaged BECAUSE OF your idolized Hizbullah, and not because Israel wanted to.


Correct. hesbollah hides in the civilian population, just like any good terrorist faction does.

Israel typically warns before an attack on terrorists hiding amungst civilians.

Laughing Laughing
HoboPelican
S3nd K3ys
HoboPelican wrote:


You are so full of crap Sendkeys.


Riiighhht.

Laughing I watch Al Jazera, I know what's really going on... Wink

Quote:
Both sides are deeply at fault here and the civilians are paying the price. And Sendkeys, by his own statements, only is trying to stir up dispute with his one-sided, inaccurate posts. Nice, Sendkeys. Getting your jollies off of the pain of others.


I can agree that both sides are at fault. The terrorists are at fault for lying and hiding amungst civilians, and Israel is at fault for wanting to exist.

Quote:

Maybe when you're done here you can go torture the neighbor's pets.


With the intellegence I've seen here, this is the only way I can stay sane. Besides, the neighbor's pets died. Why do you think I'm here? I'm here to spread the truth and watch the wiggling. Wink
bangala
SainT wrote:
S3nd K3ys wrote:
bangala wrote:

Israel is targeting mainly civilian targets.


Laughing Laughing Laughing

Disinformation owns you.



I'll second that...

btw, bangala, you should try and live in Israel for a year or two, then you'll change your point of view about your idolized Hizbullah.

Hezbullah is almost dead by now.
All of their offices are destroyed.
Now, Israel is targeting weapon supplies and rocket launch stations.
Beirut is damaged BECAUSE OF your idolized Hizbullah, and not because Israel wanted to.

SainT: I'm not fond of Hizballa. Actually I'm against Hizballa. Please remember that Hizballa is not Lebanon, and Lebanon is not Hizballa.
I live nearby Israel and I have visited most of its neighbours but unfortunately I cannot visit Israel now, may be if peace prevail in the future.
S3:
Hizballa WAS almost DEAD, Now Its back ALIVE, thanks to the " genious" Ehode Ulmert.
Israel has turned all the success that has been done by G W Bush in Lebanon and Iraq into failures.
Remember guys that Israel has stayed in Lebanon 20 years and Hizballa was just getting stronger. Israel left Lebanon in year 2000 while Hizballa was in its PEAK.
S3nd K3ys
bangala wrote:

Remember guys that Israel has stayed in Lebanon 20 years and Hizballa was just getting stronger. Israel left Lebanon in year 2000 while Hizballa was in its PEAK.


They stayed to prevent the very same shit that's going on now. That's why they're not going to stop until hesbollah is incapable of doing it any more.

They pulled out in 2000 to try to make peace. See how well that worked out? With over 500 terrorist attacks against Israel since then by hesbollah, I don't blame Israel for wanting to exterminate hesbollah.

Israel is not alone, either. Wink
SainT
I won't talk about who's wrong or right. Maybe Israel is wrong, maybe Hizbullah is wrong. I don't care atm. There's a war now...

Ulmert said today that the attacks won't stop until ANY threat against Israel is eliminated.

/me going to buy some preserves Razz

I bet that within a week or two Iran will be bombing too.
When that'll happen, US will bomb and then... you know.. the double W.

This is just horrible...
bangala
S3nd K3ys wrote:
bangala wrote:

Remember guys that Israel has stayed in Lebanon 20 years and Hizballa was just getting stronger. Israel left Lebanon in year 2000 while Hizballa was in its PEAK.


They stayed to prevent the very same **** that's going on now. That's why they're not going to stop until hesbollah is incapable of doing it any more.

They pulled out in 2000 to try to make peace. See how well that worked out? With over 500 terrorist attacks against Israel since then by hesbollah, I don't blame Israel for wanting to exterminate hesbollah.

Israel is not alone, either. Wink

S3: May be I was not clear, let me clarify:
they stayed in Lebanon for 20 years and yet they failed to get rid of Hizballa. Actually Hizballa was created because of Israel invasion.
Hizballa was created within less than a year after Lebanon invasion by Israel.
The power curve for Hizballa was increasing during the invasion of Lebanon.
If Israel couldn't kill Hizballa while it was occuping Lebanon for 20 years and their army was fully deployed there, how did they succeed now in making it " almost dead" in less than a week??
Hizballa is not a bridge or a building!
S3nd K3ys
SainT wrote:
I won't talk about who's wrong or right. Maybe Israel is wrong, maybe Hizbullah is wrong. I don't care atm. There's a war now...

Ulmert said today that the attacks won't stop until ANY threat against Israel is eliminated.

/me going to buy some preserves Razz

I bet that within a week or two Iran will be bombing too.
When that'll happen, US will bomb and then... you know.. the double W.

This is just horrible...


Many would think we've been in WWIII for a while now.

One thing is for sure; Israel needs to make a stand. She will take out hesbollah quickly, but will she stop, and will Iran/Syria let Israel defeat hesbollah?

There is very little that will stop it at this point. Very little. I would warn anyone to start making preperations for a long, cold night.
HoboPelican
S3nd K3ys wrote:

Laughing I watch Al Jazera, I know what's really going on... Wink

...

With the intellegence I've seen here, this is the only way I can stay sane. Besides, the neighbor's pets died. Why do you think I'm here? I'm here to spread the truth and watch the wiggling. Wink



You are being flippant again about a very serious subject, Sendkeys.
If you've got something intelligent to say, I wish you'd say it, instead of trolling for arguments.

Again, I addressed your one sided statements about Israel's "warnings" and choice of targets and you ignore your errors. What is your problem? Your answer using a mocking ref to Al Jazera is infantile, but the ironic thing is that the refs YOU put forth are just as one-sided and slanted as Al Jazera. YOU are the only one here who seems to be revelling in your own inability to see both sides.

Do the math, bro.
Sendkeys=Troll
SainT
According to Ulmert, IDF will stop it's attacks only after ANY threat against Israel will be eliminated.

If Iran and Syria would like to make peace (like Jordan and Egypt), then it won't be bombed.
Now Iran is not posing a threat, actaully.
So the only target is Hamas' militants (south, hiding in Gaza) and Hizbullah(north, hiding in Lebanon).
S3nd K3ys
SainT wrote:
According to Ulmert, IDF will stop it's attacks only after ANY threat against Israel will be eliminated.

If Iran and Syria would like to make peace (like Jordan and Egypt), then it won't be bombed.
Now Iran is not posing a threat, actaully.
So the only target is Hamas' militants (south, hiding in Gaza) and Hizbullah(north, hiding in Lebanon).


hesbollah is pretty much run by iran and syria. defeating hesbollah means defeating iran via proxy.

LoL, poor hobo is so mad and in denial he doesn't even read my posts and and his head explodes.

That's rent free right there. Laughing Laughing
HoboPelican
S3nd K3ys wrote:

LoL, poor hobo is so mad and in denial he doesn't even read my posts and and his head explodes.


Not sure what you think I missed, Sendkeys. All I see is that you ignore any facts that refute your one-sided thoughts, and I use the term very loosely.

You continue to make light of people dying. That in itself says a lot about who you are. A pathetic troll. No head explosions. Just want to see you respond to facts in an intelligent manner....still waiting.
James007
Gentlemen, please... keep things on topic. We don't need those side notes.
The Conspirator
S3nd K3ys: All this war is doing is demonizing Israel in the eyes of Arabs across the middle east which then make those fighting Israel look like hero's to them thus causing more people to join Hesbala and other militant groups fighting Israel thus making Israel less safe, less secure and fans the flames of radical militancy in the middle east.
This war is only going to cause more trouble for every one especially Israel.
S3nd K3ys
The Conspirator wrote:
S3nd K3ys: All this war is doing is demonizing Israel in the eyes of Arabs across the middle east


No. This war is going to draw a line. There is already some arab discontent with the hesbollah (Iran) and other hard line islamics.

Quote:
This war is only going to cause more trouble for every one especially Israel.


Again, this war will be the next great battle of civilizations. (or, in the terrorists case, UN-civilization)

The BIG difference here is tolerance.

Israel will tolerate muslims. (i.e. Israel allows multiple religions including islam, much like the US and most other civilized nations)

islamics will not tolerate Israel. (i.e. if the hesbollah succeed in securing the ME, the ONLY religion allowed will be islam)

"Convert or die." I keep hearing a few so-called peacefull muslims denouncing those three words, but I have yet to hear them denounce the factions that are pushing those three words in the name of their "peaceful" religion.
SainT
I agree with your point, Conspirator.

But there was no other choice...
HoboPelican
James007 wrote:
Gentlemen, please... keep things on topic. We don't need those side notes.


Sorry, James007, It's just that I'm trying to get Sendkeys to repsond to the link I posted that seems to dispute his claims about Israel only attcking military targets. This link from Reuters gives, I think, a balanced tally of what targets are illegal for either side.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/HRW/95cf815886b30b0097b1aed72d24d864.htm

I don't mean to be going sideways here, but my thought is that if you make incendiary claims, as Sendkeys has, you should be ready to defend them or retract them.
S3nd K3ys
HoboPelican wrote:
James007 wrote:
Gentlemen, please... keep things on topic. We don't need those side notes.


Sorry, James007, It's just that I'm trying to get Sendkeys to repsond to the link I posted that seems to dispute his claims about Israel only attcking military targets. This link from Reuters gives, I think, a balanced tally of what targets are illegal for either side.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/HRW/95cf815886b30b0097b1aed72d24d864.htm

I don't mean to be going sideways here, but my thought is that if you make incendiary claims, as Sendkeys has, you should be ready to defend them or retract them.


From YOUR link:

Quote:
Hezbollah leader Hassan Nassrallah has stated that the captured soldiers will be used to negotiate the release of Palestinian


That = kidnapping, not capturing. Also, don't forget that hesbollah went across international lines, killed 8, kidnapped 2, and simultaniously launched dozens of missles to act as a distraction. Hence Israel = defending herself.

Also from YOUR link:

Quote:
Is Israel entitled to target Lebanese infrastructure such as roads, bridges, and power stations?

Like airports, roads and bridges may be dual-use targets if actually used for military purposes.


When hesbollah hides there, they are fair game.

This has been stated MANY TIMES, Israel is targeting hesbollah, and hesbollah is hiding in civilian areas. Israel is notifying civilians that it plans to attack when possible.

** MOD EDIT **
SIDE NOTE HAS BEEN REMOVED. DO NOT EDIT THIS MESSAGE AGAIN.
** MOD EDIT **
HoboPelican
S3nd K3ys wrote:

From YOUR link:

.....


Yes, Sendkeys, there is info supporting Israel on that link. It also shows where they are attacking illegally. That is what you get with balanced views. Did you see the sections about power stations? The sections about predominately military vs civilian? Why do you only look at the facts that support the side YOU agree with?

Why is it so hard for people to accept that the world is not black and white. As I've said all along, there is plenty of blame to go around. This forum is a great example of how disputes are solved when people stay polarized and refuse to see that they MIGHT be partially wrong.

Both governments are part of the problem and the people are paying the price. They are dying on both sides. This is not a subject for clever jabs and smirks.
CCFCExile
Muslims and Jews are all as bad as each other when it comes to the middle east. The worst thing is that when Syria and Iran get involved so do the West and if our respected countries (USA UK) attack Syria and Iran Russia may well attack us. Then China will just join in for the hell of it with North Korea beating up South Korea and then someone will drop the bomb and it will be all over!
SainT
I actually agree that some of IDF's attacks are a too harsh, but not ALL attacks. Let's not get to details here, because we can't analyze the situation from that point.

But in general view, Israel is doing now what any civilized country would do.
HoboPelican
I usually am a big supporter of Israel, but on this issue I think they have a few things to answer for (but they are truly not alone in blame).

What do you all think about UN involvement? Good? Bad? Ineffectual?
I personally think it may be the only way out of this situation.
The Conspirator
S3nd K3ys wrote:
No. This war is going to draw a line. There is already some arab discontent with the hesbollah (Iran) and other hard line islamics.

Yes and that discontent would have grown but but they don
t care about that now helbalas fighting Israel and Israel just made it self look allot worse and they are joining hesbala.

Quote:
Israel will tolerate muslims. (i.e. Israel allows multiple religions including islam, much like the US and most other civilized nations)

islamics will not tolerate Israel. (i.e. if the hesbollah succeed in securing the ME, the ONLY religion allowed will be islam)

You must be from a parallel dimension cause the Israel here has been oppressing Palestinians and non Jewish Arabs.

SainT wrote:
But there was no other choice...

Wrong! Very, very wrong! Instead of demonizing itself it could use tactic that make it look like the good guy in the eyes of Arabs thus causing those who fight Israel to look like the bad guys.
HoboPelican
The Conspirator wrote:

SainT wrote:
But there was no other choice...

Wrong! Very, very wrong! Instead of demonizing itself it could use tactic that make it look like the good guy in the eyes of Arabs thus causing those who fight Israel to look like the bad guys.


Yes! That would have been excellent. Also if the Palestinian government did more to denounce terrorism, that would have helped also.
SainT
Maybe they couldn't build such a tactic?

But I agree. Israeli responded quite roughly.
Then again, there was no time for thinking about advanced and complicated tactics/plans.
Revvion
I think we should just leave Israel and this war alone, its not our problem if they want to start a war let them its not like we can tell them what to do. Also i dont think that this war will help them in the end. it will cost live resources and reputation.
sketteksalfa
Before Hariri was killed, Lebanon is quiet and developing. But after his asassination, the Hezbollah ruins the peaceful Lebanon. I say Hezbollah is a terrorist and a warfreak organization. Who just displays their guns out in the streets but hides among the civilian populace. They just sacrifice their own countrymen from their moron principles.
Revvion
Quote:
I say Hezbollah is a terrorist and a warfreak organization. Who just displays their guns out in the streets but hides among the civilian populace. They just sacrifice their own countrymen from their moron principles.


O and we are any better? we stick our noses everywhere we can, hoping to either gain some money or see some people get killed so we have something to talk about.
SainT
Agree with both posters above.

IMO only people who live in the war zone should talk in this thread about details.

@2: Hizbullah are the source of all trouble. Israel is attacking because of Hizbullah's actions.
HoboPelican
SainT wrote:

IMO only people who live in the war zone should talk in this thread about details.


Well, I agree that those there should be heard. On the other hand, do you think those living there can be objective to the other sides views? So far the people living there have not done such a great job. Please don't take offense, I just think that those living there need to be heard, but it might take an outside force (UN backed) to stop this current disaster. Once things have settled down, I'm all in favor of the people there forming there own way to get along without unasked for interference.
coolclay
Peace in the middle east will never happen, don't you read the bible? We can try all we want but it is futile.

As the saying goes it takes 2 to tango, But the question is who started to tango first? Laughing
HoboPelican
coolclay wrote:
Peace in the middle east will never happen, don't you read the bible? We can try all we want but it is futile.

As the saying goes it takes 2 to tango, But the question is who started to tango first? Laughing


Yeah, I hear ya. But a better question might be who will be the first to sit down!
fribee
Hey CCFCExile! Can you plz put a link to the multinationale agreement on the Madagaskar issue? All that I Knew, is that Hitler wanted the Jews deported to Mad as well.
And why did everybody back out? Do you have sources as well?

Would be very interesting for me, thx in advance!

Fact is, that they are sitting on stolen land, and nobody ever wanted them. Fact is, that they are strong with their internal ties and owning the whole world anyway via banks and media - remember Rothschild - and that they have a real high intelligence and conspiracy power. And of course, the nuclear power now.

Fact is, that you could blame all the terrorist attacks in the past 20 years on them, or better their secret service, and won't be wrong.

Fact is, that they give a d*** on their own people, if it serves higher interests.

Thats all for today

Fribee
Revvion
can somebody please tell me what the crisis is? because i still dont see it. its war, humans always go to war we like it if not love it. and ofcourse the un wants to intervene, because the love it too. so again i say let them fight it out its not our problem besides they dont want us to intervene anyway it would just be anoying for them.
jipmerite
S3nd K3ys wrote:
The Conspirator wrote:
S3nd K3ys: All this war is doing is demonizing Israel in the eyes of Arabs across the middle east


No. This war is going to draw a line. There is already some arab discontent with the hesbollah (Iran) and other hard line islamics.

Quote:
This war is only going to cause more trouble for every one especially Israel.


Again, this war will be the next great battle of civilizations. (or, in the terrorists case, UN-civilization)

The BIG difference here is tolerance.

Israel will tolerate muslims. (i.e. Israel allows multiple religions including islam, much like the US and most other civilized nations)

islamics will not tolerate Israel. (i.e. if the hesbollah succeed in securing the ME, the ONLY religion allowed will be islam)

"Convert or die." I keep hearing a few so-called peacefull muslims denouncing those three words, but I have yet to hear them denounce the factions that are pushing those three words in the name of their "peaceful" religion.


You know, I don't think this war is about being able to practice a particular religion. It's about land. And the Palestenians want their land back. ANd the Hezbollag also want Palestine to have their land back. Can you show me a single news artice where Hezbollah, Iran, Syria or Hamas is calling for all jews to convert to Islam?

They don't care if Jews worship cows or donkeys They just want them out of the Palestine land.

Quote:
Bridges, seaports, military coastal radars and Hezbollah offices all attacked, fuel storage tanks destroyed, cutting the main highway to Syria, communications etc etc etc...


That was from a previous pos in this topict. Now most of these attacks are against international treaties such as the Geneva Convention. Is Israel going to be held accountable for breaking those treaties? SO far the US, UN and the rest of the world are turning a blind eye.

US has said to Israel, 'Defend yourself, but be careful of the consequences'...if a country is in fact 'defending' itself, why should it be vary of consequences? I see a contradiction in this whole statement.

Israel has been commiting atrocities in Palestine for years now. And Palestine is fighting them against it. So going by the same notion, why should Palestine have consequences for their actions either?
SainT
So what now?

All jews who live in Israel should shout "We're sorry in the name of our fathers!", leave Israel and drown in sea so the poor Palestinians will live happily without those Jewish pests?

Oh, c'mon.. that's not a solution.

First of all, we can't do shit about the situation.
The discussions in this forum are a waste of time.
Better waste that time on making money to buy more preserves Laughing

Now, if we actaully want to waste time, we have to discuss about a solution that is possible and realistic.

Until now, we just counted how many kids died and what Israel and it's enemy did wrong in the past and present...
haak_heu
The Conspirator wrote:
Soulfire wrote:
Well, peace isn't unachievable, but it seems only a vision now to most. Israel can't just do nothing, then the terrorists will think that they are winning, and demand more. I believe this is a policy of appeasement... giving in to the terrorists. It's how the world tried to deal with Hitler, and well, we all know how well that turned out...

I think pointing fingers and trying to blame people will do nothing for anyone.


The problems Israels actions are creating more militants.
What most people don't get is that there are many ways to fight and the are not all literately fighting. Just look at Mahatma Gandhi, he and his followers fought the British with out using violence and won.
When fighting loosely organised militant groups the best tactics are tactics that make you look like the good guy and demonise your enemy, even too your enemy.
Israels tactics are doing the opposite, too many Israels tactics have demonise Israel and thus made those who are fighting Israel look like hero's thus leading more to join those militant groups and fight Israel.


killing more and more inocent will strengthen hisbullah , hamas and other militant groups and if israel did not took action and stoped war there will be difficulty for israelis as lebnani and palestanian are killed now to syria ..than iran this will lead to involve more personals and war is not only your best weapons and support of america and closed eyes of world it is on will of people as you saw in afgnistan and rassia and vietnam ....you never never when unless you have will to ......
The Conspirator
SainT, jipmerite: Stop using the word "Jew", this is about Israel not Judaism. The Jews are a very large and very diverse group and are not represented by Israel.
SainT
I ment Jews who are living in Israel.
HoboPelican
SainT wrote:

Now, if we actaully want to waste time, we have to discuss about a solution that is possible and realistic.


Now there's a idea. If you are going to find a solution, I suppose you need to define the problem. The first step would seem to be how to stop the fighting quickly. To that end I'd propose UN intervention, with the US staying out of it except in a support role. Anyone have a better idea?
S3nd K3ys
HoboPelican wrote:
Anyone have a better idea?


Yeah.

Stay out of it and let them fight. This needs to be settled once and for all. The US needs to prevent Iran and Syria from aiding hesbollah and let them fight.

Disproportionate Retaliation?

My ass!

Israel is using a fraction of their capability. Not even including their nuclear capabilitites. They are going to great pains to avoid targeting civilians. They have three requests before they will stop:

Return kidnapped soldiers
Stop attacking Israel
Lebanese Government to remove Hesbollah from the border area and disarm them (Israel (I believe) offered to help Lebanon)

That's all it will take. If that's too much, then by all means, let the fighting continue.
fribee
Yes Saint, you are right. Of course its not a solution
to stampede out the israelis. And Madagaskar also
is not an option anymore.

I think, the Israels should stay were they are, but
accept a Palaestinean government, after their own
had been "wiped off the earth".

This would be the most simple and peaceful solution.
Only it will never happen because of the
US-warhawks of israel origin.

Fribee
nopaniers
I think UN intervention is the only realistic idea. It's going to be difficult to get anybody to trust them because of the chequered past, and US's perceived domination of the UN. I do think it's the best option though.

The forces would have to be chosen from a country which the Lebanese would accept. That rules out the US (not that they often send UN peacekeeping troops anyway) and Britain for similar reasons and obviously Syria and Iran are out. I'd say France are out too because they are the former colonial rulers of Lebanon. Maybe someone completely not involved... Any suggestions?

Of course the other option is for Mr Bush to tell the Israelis to stop or he will withdraw aid. Somehow, I don't see it happening.
S3nd K3ys
nopaniers wrote:
I think UN intervention is the only realistic idea.


Yeah, they've been so succesful in the past. Rolling Eyes The UN is as worthliss as tits on a boar hog. They use the US for their muscle and their wallet and then turn around and blame US when things go bad or they get caught with their dobbers in the dirt.

Quote:
Of course the other option is for Mr Bush to tell the Israelis to stop or he will withdraw aid. Somehow, I don't see it happening.


Bush already asked them to use restraint. And they are. A LOT of restraint. Israel is doing the right thing, why would we want to stop them?
S3nd K3ys
Some may find this interesting. We are discussing this on another board. Iskandar is someone I correspond with who lives in Israel. This reply is to a question asking who Israel and in fact the rest of modern western civilization are fighting.

Iskandar, an e-friend of mine in Israel wrote:
It is that simple .
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Quote:
I don't think it is that simple. Who are "they"? And is the battleground really being chosen? or created?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
They never hide their goals .
They like to burn our flags together with yours .
They Have plenty of arms and money and young idiots ready for action .
Just do not make our mistakes .
We have bin sitting 6 years on border looking on Hizbolla stock of rockets and long range missiles doing nothing .
eNDLESS PROVOCATIONS ,CLASHES AND SHOOTING .
Now this happened .
We were need to do it 5 years ago ,
And no rocket would fall on Haifa ,Afula and Tiberia .
Just do not make fools of yourself thinking this thing not related to you .
No matter where you live USA ,Australia or Canada you need to be more decisive .
Now about right and left .
When right wing parties were in power in Israel ,
left opposition paralized actions of right .
If Nataniahu will be instead of Olmert ,they would be active opposition paralizing his efforts .
Now left is in power and got the full support of right parties .
This was the main mistake of Nasralla -he has not left the way out for Olmert ,only to be the tough guy .
All the wars in Israel started the left goverments (and one national unity gov ) in similar situations .
In Israel right are realists and left are dreamers .
Dreamers are good only in poetry .


PS .when you sleep under cannonade ,hear sirens or
Katyusha rockets fall close to you ,you turn to be right ,at least temporally .
I doubt the North of Israel would support for the next election any left party .


Iskandar and I disagree on many subjects, but not this one. Israel wants to exist. Israel has every right to exist. Israel has to fight to exists because those around her want her gone. Not just quiet, GONE.
Revvion
Quote:
Of course the other option is for Mr Bush to tell the Israelis to stop or he will withdraw aid. Somehow, I don't see it happening.


Well basicly israel is using the same reason as the US did for afganistan, they where attacked by terrist (act of war) so they simply strike back
smalls
Wow, I agree with S3end K3ys. The UN has historically been impotent when it comes to stopping violence. They were impotent in Rowanda, they were impotent in the Democratic Republic of Congo, they were impotent in Srebrenica, they were impotent in Somalia. And of course, even though Iraq broke 17 UN Security Council Resolutions, they failed to support action against Iraq. What makes you think the UN could have any effect on a war that has essitially been going on since at least 1948, and fundamentally for more than a thousand years?
bangala
Revvion wrote:
Quote:
Of course the other option is for Mr Bush to tell the Israelis to stop or he will withdraw aid. Somehow, I don't see it happening.


Well basicly israel is using the same reason as the US did for afganistan, they where attacked by terrist (act of war) so they simply strike back

Let's see:
case 1:
3000 + innoncent civilians were killed for no reason while they are at work and the explosives used in this attack was civilian aeroplanes.
The US response to this attack was restricted to terrorists only and the Americans started building Afghanistan immediately.
case2:
An Israeli soldier was captured by a group of fighters who are under military occupation and they are demanding the release of prisoners (childrens and women only) in return. Israel's response was to destroy everything.

Americans (real Americans) should be angry to hear about such comprison!
S3nd K3ys
bangala wrote:
Revvion wrote:
Quote:
Of course the other option is for Mr Bush to tell the Israelis to stop or he will withdraw aid. Somehow, I don't see it happening.


Well basicly israel is using the same reason as the US did for afganistan, they where attacked by terrist (act of war) so they simply strike back

Let's see:
case 1:
3000 + innoncent civilians were killed for no reason while they are at work and the explosives used in this attack was civilian aeroplanes.
The US response to this attack was restricted to terrorists only and the Americans started building Afghanistan immediately.
case2:
An Israeli soldier was captured by a group of fighters who are under military occupation and they are demanding the release of prisoners (childrens and women only) in return. Israel's response was to destroy everything.

Americans (real Americans) should be angry to hear about such comprison!


You (conveniently) left out the parts where hesbollah launched rockets on the day of the kidnapping, and the hundreds of attacks that Israel has endured for the last several years.

You should change your name to WhatTruth?
nopaniers
S3nd K3ys wrote:
Yeah, they've been so succesful in the past.

Yes. The UN has history of over 50 successful peacekeeping missions, including most recently in East Timor and Afghanistan.

Quote:
They use the US for their muscle

UN troops are typically drawn from middle powers, such as Canada and Australia. The US rarely contributes peacekeeping forces.

Quote:
and their wallet

Every country in the world contributes to the UN.

Quote:
Israel is doing the right thing

And there we see the reason that the US are impotent. Their policians are prevented by the religious right of doing the right thing, reigning in Israel and stopping the killing of innocent civilians.
HoboPelican
smalls wrote:
Wow, I agree with S3end K3ys. The UN has historically been impotent when it comes to stopping violence.


So you completely agree with Sendkeys and believe that the world should not even try to help? Just let the whole situation run it's course and to h*ll with it?
S3nd K3ys
nopaniers wrote:

]
And there we see the reason that the US are impotent. Their policians are prevented by the religious right of doing the right thing, reigning in Israel and stopping the killing of innocent civilians.



Impotent. Yes. If you say so.

As I've stated, the US IS telling Israel to use restraint. And they are.

Why do you and the rest of your mis-informed ilk inisist on ignoring this very simple FACT? Oh, that's right, because the US thinks it's right, it must be wrong. Wink
S3nd K3ys
HoboPelican wrote:
smalls wrote:
Wow, I agree with S3end K3ys. The UN has historically been impotent when it comes to stopping violence.


So you completely agree with Sendkeys and believe that the world should not even try to help? Just let the whole situation run it's course and to h*ll with it?


Oh, my. Putting words in my mouth again. I really do hate that.

I think the entire would SHOULD help. It's going to take a concerted effort to eliminate terrorism. Israel can't do it alone. Rolling Eyes
nopaniers
smalls wrote:
What makes you think the UN could have any effect on a war that has essitially been going on since at least 1948, and fundamentally for more than a thousand years?


And your suggestion is .... ? Isn't it fun to critisize people who have been trying to prevent in the most difficult conflicts in the world for the past 50 years. With such a difficult job it doesn't always work, but to attempting to stop the bloodshed is much better than doing nothing. Instead critisizing and doing nothing, the UN has negotiated the end to 150 different conflicts around the world. They helped bring about the end of apartheid in South Africa, which has been going on much longer than just 1948, and fundamentally more than a thousand years.

If you're going to critisize, why not suggest a better solution?
S3nd K3ys
nopaniers wrote:
smalls wrote:
What makes you think the UN could have any effect on a war that has essitially been going on since at least 1948, and fundamentally for more than a thousand years?


And your suggestion is .... ? Isn't it fun to critisize people who have been trying to prevent in the most difficult conflicts in the world for the past 50 years. With such a difficult job it doesn't always work, but to attempting to stop the bloodshed is much better than doing nothing. Instead critisizing and doing nothing, the UN has negotiated the end to 150 different conflicts around the world. They helped bring about the end of apartheid in South Africa, which has been going on much longer than just 1948, and fundamentally more than a thousand years.

If you're going to critisize, why not suggest a better solution?


Um, I hate to say it, but if it hasn't worked in the last 50 years, I think it's about time for a different strategy. Diplomacy isn't working. Restraint isn't working.

Time to let them go at it toe to toe.
bangala
S3nd K3ys wrote:
bangala wrote:
Revvion wrote:
Quote:
Of course the other option is for Mr Bush to tell the Israelis to stop or he will withdraw aid. Somehow, I don't see it happening.


Well basicly israel is using the same reason as the US did for afganistan, they where attacked by terrist (act of war) so they simply strike back

Let's see:
case 1:
3000 + innoncent civilians were killed for no reason while they are at work and the explosives used in this attack was civilian aeroplanes.
The US response to this attack was restricted to terrorists only and the Americans started building Afghanistan immediately.
case2:
An Israeli soldier was captured by a group of fighters who are under military occupation and they are demanding the release of prisoners (childrens and women only) in return. Israel's response was to destroy everything.

Americans (real Americans) should be angry to hear about such comprison!


You (conveniently) left out the parts where hesbollah launched rockets on the day of the kidnapping, and the hundreds of attacks that Israel has endured for the last several years.

You should change your name to WhatTruth?

We are talking about THIS war and the REASON for starting it, not what happened later!! Please Go back to Revvion's post, whom I was replying to, and read before typing.
HoboPelican
S3nd K3ys wrote:
Quote:

So you completely agree with Sendkeys and believe that the world should not even try to help? Just let the whole situation run it's course and to h*ll with it?


Oh, my. Putting words in my mouth again. I really do hate that.

your words, sendkeys.

Quote:
...Yeah.
Stay out of it and let them fight. This needs to be settled once and for all. ...


That is exactly what you said.

And you keep spouting your "fact" that Israel is using restraint. Unfortunatly, it isnt a fact. That is a personal opinion. The civilians dying no doubt would disagree, right?



So, Sendkeys, maybe you should post a little less? That way you could remember what you wrote Wink
nopaniers
S3nd K3ys wrote:
Um, I hate to say it, but if it hasn't worked in the last 50 years, I think it's about time for a different strategy. Diplomacy isn't working. Restraint isn't working.

Time to let them go at it toe to toe.


[sarcasm]So... maybe Israel should invade Lebanon. That hasn't been tried before has it? It worked wonders.[/sarcasm]
bangala
HoboPelican wrote:
S3nd K3ys wrote:
Quote:

So you completely agree with Sendkeys and believe that the world should not even try to help? Just let the whole situation run it's course and to h*ll with it?


Oh, my. Putting words in my mouth again. I really do hate that.

your words, sendkeys.

Quote:
...Yeah.
Stay out of it and let them fight. This needs to be settled once and for all. ...


That is exactly what you said.

And you keep spouting your "fact" that Israel is using restraint. Unfortunatly, it isnt a fact. That is a personal opinion. The civilians dying no doubt would disagree, right?



So, Sendkeys, maybe you should post a little less? That way you could remember what you wrote Wink

we keep saying this to him HoboPelican but he insists on favoring quantity over quality! Let's hope this time Pray
HoboPelican
BTW - Sendkeys, why are you so insistent that the UN has no value here?
If you really believe that, itemize your repsonses to their list of actions below. All of them, of course, since you seem to be saying there isn't a chance that they might be effective.

I think these are cases were the UN DID have an effect. If you still disagree, show us why. Or backdown. Or run away.


Quote:
UN interventions have been in particular demand in the Middle East, both as regards observer groups and military forces. The UN first took on the task of sending observers to monitor the armistice between Israel and the Arab states in 1948. Observer group activity was resumed after the wars of 1956, 1967, and 1973. After the 1956 war, the first armed UN force was established to create a buffer between Israeli and Egyptian forces in the Sinai. Ten nations contributed soldiers. Another force was established after the war between Egypt and Israel in 1967 to monitor the armistice agreement between the parties. This took place during a period of extremely high tension both locally and between the great powers. In 1974, a smaller UN force was set up on the Golan Heights to maintain the boundary line between Syrian and Israeli forces. The most extensive UN operation in the Middle East is represented by the formation of UNIFIL, subsequent upon the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1978. Its tasks included watching over the Israeli withdrawal, maintaining conditions of peace and security, and helping the Lebanese government re-establish its authority. Such tasks have taxed the capabilities of UNIFIL to the utmost, but the UN forces have made an important contribution by reducing the level of conflict in the area. However, this achievement has not come without significant cost. UN casualities now amount to more than 200.
Revvion
bangala wrote:
S3nd K3ys wrote:
bangala wrote:
Revvion wrote:
Quote:
Of course the other option is for Mr Bush to tell the Israelis to stop or he will withdraw aid. Somehow, I don't see it happening.


Well basicly israel is using the same reason as the US did for afganistan, they where attacked by terrist (act of war) so they simply strike back

Let's see:
case 1:
3000 + innoncent civilians were killed for no reason while they are at work and the explosives used in this attack was civilian aeroplanes.
The US response to this attack was restricted to terrorists only and the Americans started building Afghanistan immediately.
case2:
An Israeli soldier was captured by a group of fighters who are under military occupation and they are demanding the release of prisoners (childrens and women only) in return. Israel's response was to destroy everything.

Americans (real Americans) should be angry to hear about such comprison!


You (conveniently) left out the parts where hesbollah launched rockets on the day of the kidnapping, and the hundreds of attacks that Israel has endured for the last several years.

You should change your name to WhatTruth?

We are talking about THIS war and the REASON for starting it, not what happened later!! Please Go back to Revvion's post, whom I was replying to, and read before typing.



i am not reffering to the death count but to the fact that israel sees the hostage taking as an act of war. its just a different act of terrorism
bangala
Revvion wrote:

i am not reffering to the death count but to the fact that israel sees the hostage taking as an act of war. its just a different act of terrorism

It's not just the death count, the 2 cases are completely different.
BTW: If taking one hostage is an act of war, what about keeping 10,000 hostages in your prisons for 10s of years even after 15 years of negotiations? An act of peace??
SainT
I want all Hizbullah supporters here to tell me: what should Israel do?

Just want to hear your opinion.

What would YOU do if you were PM Ulmert now.
nopaniers
I am not a Hezbollah supporter, but I will give you a suggestion what Ulmert should do.

He should stop the killing right now, followed by an apology to the Lebanese people.
SainT
Alright.

Let's assume that ALL IDF actions will stop against Hizbullah RIGHT NOW.

Hizbullah WILL continue their missile attacks just like they did before IDF attacked Hizbullah.
Hamas WILL continue their missile attacks in the south just like they did for the past 5 years.
Suicide terrorist from both Hamas and Hizbullah WILL continue to blow up in the streets of Israeli cities, and also kidnapping more soldiers and Israeli citizen.


So, is it a good solution to stop all IDF actions at this moment?
Maybe for those who hate Israeli people on a racial basis, but in general, it's not a good solution.

Lebanese people are dying, true. So do Israeli people, and Indian people, and Americans and British people.. etc etc etc etc etc etc
Why? Terror organizations LIKE Hizbullah and Hamas are the source.

They have to be stopped in order to stop the killing.
The only way to stop those low-IQ monkeys with their crazed ideology is to spank them really hard, that's the only way they understand, but people will die.
Though MORE people will die if they aren't stopped now.
Talking to them is useless! We've been talking with them for years and the situation always was tense.
Rocket here, explosion there... <- no normal life for the past years.


Any other ideas?
HoboPelican
SainT wrote:
Alright.
Hizbullah WILL continue his missile attacks just like he did before IDF attacked Hizbullah.
Hamas WILL continue their missile attacks in the south just like they did for the past 5 years.
Suicide terrorist from both Hamas and Hizbullah WILL continue to blow up in the streets of Israeli cities, and also kidnapping more soldiers and Israeli citizen.


So, is it a good solution to stop all IDF actions at this moment?
Maybe for those who hate Israeli people on a racial basis, but in general, it's not a good solution.

Any other ideas?


Well, you are making assumptions to shut off a good line of thought. How about a 48 hour cease-fire with the requirement that all soldiers are returned and some assurance from the Palastinians that they would work to stop the missile attacks.

If that is not enough, what would YOU need to see to justify a cease-fire.
SainT
Maybe cease fire isn't a good solution?
Maybe we actually should wipe those Hizbullah bastards for good?

Because of we'll back off now, Hizbullah will re-arm and launch even deadlier missiles.

Now, Israel is working to wipe Hizbullah from the face of the earth.
Why? So in the future, more people will live in peace.

48 hours of peace is nice, but I prefer to live the rest of my life in peace, rather than 48 hours.

Any other ideas? Maybe 49.3 hours of cease fire?
nopaniers
It is a question of basic morality. You do not kill innocent civilians. By continuing attacks, Israel is guaranteeing enemies in the future. If they show a human face, then they will not be hated. After all, the Lebanese people as a whole did nothing to Israel. If they have their homes destroyed, their cities bombed then the pain will continue into the future.

As it was, Lebanon was negotiating with Hezbollah to bring their forces under central government control. That would have seen the eventual end of the fighters who drove Israel out of Lebanon in the first place. Israel should have been working to strengthen the Lebanese government, not to destroy it. Now, the central government is weakened and Hezbollah's hand is strengthened. Israel's bombing is creating a new generation of supporters. The more bombing, the more Israel is hated and the more bloodshed for Israel in the future.

Continuing the immoral actions of killing innocent people is not simply wrong it creates hatred. It's not morally right to kill people who have done nothing. It's not morally right to destroy their livelihoods. But from Israel's point of view, it is creating deep hurts which hurt it into the future. It's immoral and it's counterproductive.
HoboPelican
SainT wrote:
Maybe cease fire isn't a good solution?
Maybe we actually should wipe those Hizbullah bastards for good?


Sorry, but with that statement you've expressed that you have no desire for a solution except through extermination. Since Israel can't kill the terrorist directly, you have to wipe out any innocents in the vicinity. And do you really think you can wipe them out? You'll just create more hatred. And from that will spring more terrorists. You aren't going to solve it with guns.
SainT
That's the problem... Hizbullah is really like ink in a glass of water. :\

I think that we should hunt for the head, Nasrallah, rather than focusing on general bombing.
This way, a diversion of "cease fire" will come in handy. It'll draw Nasrallah out so we can blow his brains out in public. One sniper or a very accurate missile should do the job...
horseatingweeds
hmmmm, Yup.
fribee
Bangala,

plz tell me:

In which world are you living in?

You still believe in the Afghanistan story
set up by the media?

Hey, I can sell you the Eiffel-tower in Paris!
Special price for you only $ 10.000 !!

Fribee
The Conspirator
SainT wrote:
Maybe cease fire isn't a good solution?
Maybe we actually should wipe those Hizbullah bastards for good?

The problem is, Hesbulla is a loosely organised militant group, you can not destroy those with military action. The worse you can do is shatter it creating a bunch of smaller militant groups thus making it harder to stop them.
The only way to stop them is to destroy there motivation and right now Israel is making them look like hero's to many in the middle east and around the world making more people join them making them bigger stronger and bringing more and more death.

Quote:
Now, Israel is working to wipe Hizbullah from the face of the earth.
Why? So in the future, more people will live in peace.

Israel dose not won't peace. If Israel wonted peace they wouldn't be making more militants.
SainT
Israel wants peace. Live with that.

I say we should wait and see what will happen next.
We can't predict the future.
SainT
Why they want us to be dead?

Racism. It all comes down to Racism.
Stolen land? Jews ruling the world? All those are just expressions of racism towards our people. Why? I have no idea.

The only way to have peace is killing those people who want us dead, or they killing us.
The Conspirator
Really? Than why is Israel using tactics that have not only proven have them selves ineffective against militants but actually makes more militants?
If Israel wonted peace it would change its tactic to something that doesn't throw fuel on the fire.
SainT
You should ask Ulmert, not me.
Why are they using such tactics? Why have they bombed this house and not that one? Why are they bombing anyway? I have no idea because I'm not a military official.

One thing for sure, the last thing Israel needs now is a big war on it's shoulders.
So logically, the govt. wants peace Razz People? We want peace even more than the govt.
The Conspirator
SainT wrote:
The only way to have peace is killing those people who want us dead, or they killing us.

Do you not get that by killing them your making more of them?
nopaniers
Yes, you would think that Israel would want peace, which is why the way that Israel is acting makes no sense.
Helios
We surely know less than our goverments, if you ask me.
SainT
True. Then we will kill even more of them. Until they will get that it's pointless to fight us.
Or until we all die...

Us or them. A cease-fire stand will always be temporary.
In the end it's us or them.
The Conspirator
Thats never going to happon, its just going to keep spirling out of conmtroll till both side are detryed.
The only way it can stop is for Isreal to stop doing things that make millitints and for Isreal to actuly try and make peace.
SainT
Oh man... that's not as easy as it sounds Sad

Those extremists want way too much.

Even if Israel will move it's whole population to some other place,
those extremists will want even more. I can bet with you on that.
lyndonray
I have said this before and i will say it again: JUST NUKE THEM ALL. The whole friggin region, Israel, Palestine, Lebanon, i don't give a flying ef! JUST NUKE EM. I don't care who does the nuking, just get it done. A bit extreme you think? Hell Yeah. But these people have no intention of living in peace with each other. Each one blames the other for everything terrible on earth. And I am just plain sick of it. So you know what NUKE EM. Flatten the damn place and lets start all over again. Because it's not like there is a world of mineral riches there? It mostly a stupid desert with a truck-load of history (mostly ancient and therefore bearly believable) that does more harm than good. So again, NUKE EM. Of course there will be international outrage, people crying and protesting and crying some more all sorts stuff like that. But it will send a very powerful message: GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER AND LEARN TO LIVE WITH EACH OTHER OR YOU WILL GET NUKED. Same thing with these conflicts in Africa. Just look for a group of rebels fighting with some corrupt government and NUKE EM. That will force people to wake the ef up.

There is no point in taking sides in this latest crisis in the Middle-friggin-East. All the parties involved are stupid, stubborn, self-centered morons who need to have some sense bombed into them! Whether its the Israelies, Palestinians, Hezbollah, Hamas and god-knows what else they have over there, they are all bird-brains in my book. coz anyone who can spend generation after generation after generation fighting the same stupid war is a bird-brain as far as I am concerned. And what do we do with bird-brains: we NUKE EM!

The Palestinians could realise that Israel isn't just going disappear one sunny afternoon. Isrealis should also realise that the Palestinians got screwed out of their land. So why not understand this reality and work at a compromise like the smart and intelligent (as well as beautiful) people we all know they are? NOOOOOOO. They figure decades of endless incursions, occupations and intefadas is the way to go. Well I say NUKE EM! And after the dust settles build a small Bushman colony there. I am sure they will make better use of the land (or whats left of it)
The Conspirator
SainT wrote:
Oh man... that's not as easy as it sounds Sad

Those extremists want way too much.

Even if Israel will move it's whole population to some other place,
those extremists will want even more. I can bet with you on that.

I said Isreal needs to demonizing it self and start trying find peacfull solution.
Who knows it just might work, Isreal hasn't tried it in the past.
S3nd K3ys
HoboPelican wrote:
S3nd K3ys wrote:
Quote:

So you completely agree with Sendkeys and believe that the world should not even try to help? Just let the whole situation run it's course and to h*ll with it?


Oh, my. Putting words in my mouth again. I really do hate that.

your words, sendkeys.

Quote:
...Yeah.
Stay out of it and let them fight. This needs to be settled once and for all. ...


That is exactly what you said.

And you keep spouting your "fact" that Israel is using restraint. Unfortunatly, it isnt a fact. That is a personal opinion. The civilians dying no doubt would disagree, right?



So, Sendkeys, maybe you should post a little less? That way you could remember what you wrote Wink


Error 404: Sarcasm Not Found

Quote:
It's going to take a concerted effort to eliminate terrorism. Israel can't do it alone.


Rolling Eyes

Yes, hobo, restraint. Are you even slightly aware of the military capability of Israel??? I didn't think so. They could wipe out the ENTIRE middle east if they wanted to.

Anyway... now that I've completely confused hobo, (not a difficult task, just be a little sarcastic and his chest puffs out and his finger starts waving while he's scorning me and telling me how little I seemingly know....) lets get back on topic;

The US is doing exactally what I said they should do; let them fight. hesbollah will burn in fire before Israel gets done with them. Very Happy

And for the ignorant hard headed crowd who can only see things from the terrorists point of view, let me assure you that, in the REAL world, Israel wants peace, wants to be left alone, and to (most importantly) exist.

The terrorsts want Israel destroyed. They've said it over and over. This is where we draw the line.

How ignorant are those people that want to see an entire race eliminated?
S3nd K3ys
SainT wrote:
True. Then we will kill even more of them. Until they will get that it's pointless to fight us.
Or until we all die...

Us or them. A cease-fire stand will always be temporary.
In the end it's us or them.



Perfectly stated, SainT. Unfortunately, 50+ years recently and thousands of years of the same shit still does not matter to some of the most blinded people I think I've ever had the privilage of conversing with... Rolling Eyes


The Conspirator wrote:
Isreal needs to demonizing it self and start trying find peacfull solution.
Who knows it just might work, Isreal hasn't tried it in the past.


That's the single most ignorant thing I think I've heard on this entire forum in a year! I used to give you at least a small amount of credibility, even though you're usually way off base, but to say something as completely assinine and un-factual as that is just incredible.

Is there peace with Egypt? How about Jordan? Is Israel attacking them? No? Why? Because they're not attacking Israel.

Leave Israel alone and you will be left alone.

****** with Israel, and you're ****ed.

It's pretty simple.
SainT
The Conspirator, while I said: "that's not as easy as it sounds".
Everyone knows that a peaceful solution has to be found! Not only a peaceful solution, but a peaceful solution that'll last forever.
Now just go and find it... (read the first line again)

The best solution for those monkeys now is to stop attacking.
If they really want peace in those parts of land like Lebanon, they should STOP ATTACKING. Not temporarily, though. They must stop FOR GOOD. Or we'll stop them, and it'll be VERY - VERY painful.

Oh wait, they don't stop, right? - Means they care about you Lebanese people as much as they care about washing themselves!

They knew that Israel will hit 'em hard and they knew Israel will damage, maybe accidentally, but still damage civilans. Did they care? Nope, no they didn't.


Btw, lyndonray, why only middle east? The whole world!
"No people - No problems", right? moron..
S3nd K3ys
SainT wrote:
The Conspirator, while I said: "that's not as easy as it sounds".
Everyone knows that a peaceful solution has to be found! Not only a peaceful solution, but a peaceful solution that'll last forever.
Now just go and find it... (read the first line again)

The best solution for those monkeys now is to stop attacking.
If they really want peace in those parts of land like Lebanon, they should STOP ATTACKING. Not temporarily, though. They must stop FOR GOOD. Or we'll stop them, and it'll be VERY - VERY painful.

Oh wait, they don't stop, right? - Means they care about you Lebanese people as much as they care about washing themselves!


Btw, lyndonray, why only middle east? The whole world!
"No people - No problems", right?


SainT, arguing with Conspirator is useless. He will never acknowledge the truth, nor even admit there might be another side to this.

I'm glad 86% of Israel is behind the current solution.
SainT
BTW, Added more to the post above.


Yes. Right now, Israel is doing the right thing. I'm sorry for the great loses, but there will be more loses for both sides (and later for the whole world) if Hizbullah isn't stopped RIGHT ****** NOW.

Not only Hizbullah, but every terrorist out there.
(ie Hamas, Al Quida etc... )
HoboPelican
Sendkeys,when are you ever going to admit you are wrong? So sad, for you.
S3nd K3ys wrote:
Yes, hobo, restraint. Are you even slightly aware of the military capability of Israel??? I didn't think so. They could wipe out the ENTIRE middle east if they wanted to.

If you bump into a man on the street and he turns and knocks you out and beat the s**t out of you, is he showing restraint by not killing you? Israel is NOT showing restraint.

sendkeys, You talk about ignorant people who only see the terrorist's point of view, but your ignorance is just as monumental in your blindness to the other side also.

I just find it sad that you guys would accept innocent people being killed instead of trying to find a solution.


BTW sendkeys, I notice that you again tried to avoid my post about the UN. Remember, you claimed they've been ineffectual and I posted a list of actions that seemed to prove you wrong. But you ran again. So sad you only want to rant and can't put your mind in gear.
fribee
Yes, I think some people are right here:

Israel wants peace!

Peace in the whole middle-east under the governing
of Israel of course!

Hundreds of thousands have to flee now only because
of two or three kidnapped Israeli soldiers!
Nobody talks about the tens of thousands Palaestineans
in the Israeli prisons, or the kidnapped gaza government!

Good start for a peace, non? Sitting on stolen land, killing
and detaining everybody around, no matter who!

I don't know, whether their arrogance will guide them
into distinguish, they don't realize yet.

Fribee
SFMeatwad
I was at summer camp when this crap happened. Saturday, I heard they were all bombing the heck out of Iraq. ( I think that's the country )

They had captured like a couple of their soldiers or something. Wow, Israel was really looking for a fight just because some of their soldiers got captured. They don't play around... God rules..
S3nd K3ys
HoboPelican wrote:

If you bump into a man on the street and he turns and knocks you out and beat the s**t out of you, is he showing restraint by not killing you? Israel is NOT showing restraint.

sendkeys, You talk about ignorant people who only see the terrorist's point of view, but your ignorance is just as monumental in your blindness to the other side also.

I just find it sad that you guys would accept innocent people being killed instead of trying to find a solution.


BTW sendkeys, I notice that you again tried to avoid my post about the UN. Remember, you claimed they've been ineffectual and I posted a list of actions that seemed to prove you wrong. But you ran again. So sad you only want to rant and can't put your mind in gear.


It's things like trying to relate a person bumping into you on the street with somone blowing up your 3 year old daughter in a market with a bomb strapped to thier ass that show your true level of denial.

Call it what it is, hobo: Terrorists don't want Israel to exist. Period. They've said it repeatedly, they won't rest until Israel is GONE.

No matter WHAT Israel does. There will be no peace.

There will be no peace.



But, since that misguided level of metaphoric symbolism seems to be all you understand, lets look at it that way.

Quote:
If you bump into a man on the street and he turns and knocks you out and beat the s**t out of you, is he showing restraint by not killing you?


That guy will attack you or the next guy that bumps in to you. He's unstable and a threat to peaceful citizens who simply whish to exist and go on about their life around him without the threat of violence., so he needs to be removed from society.

That guy, who is so pissed off because of your very existance, is THE TERRORIST, not the Israeli.

Israel doesn't care WHO lives next to them, so long as they're peaceful and leave Israel ALONE.

The terrorists, on the other hand, don't want Israelis even on the same planet, no matter what.

You're trying to put the blame and shame of terrorism on the Israelis, when all they want is to be left the ****** alone, and by the terrorists own admission, will NOT leave them alone until they are ALL DEAD.
SainT
Hey, terror supporters down here @ FriHost, guess what?

Yep, we have another two to add to our prisons.
We cought a suicide terrorist and his driver in Hod-Ha-Sharon.

I bet he's looking like a women and his driver looks like a child.
So yea, we have women and children ONLY in our prisons.

Wait, let's release them in the name of peace!

But why only release him?
Let's put him in town square so he'll blow himself up!

That'll probably make you all happy, right? Very Happy
SainT
SFMeatwad, are you playing ignorant or are you really one?

Go watch the news, instead of cartoons.
Oh, for God's sake, watch CNN or any other neutral news station.. thank you.
S3nd K3ys
SFMeatwad wrote:
just because some of their soldiers got captured.


That's not the only reason why, but it was the straw that broke the camel's back.
SainT
S3nd K3ys wrote:
SFMeatwad wrote:
just because some of their soldiers got captured.


That's not the only reason why, but it was the straw that broke the camel's back.


Not really, but you can say so... I guess.
We were also very worried about Hizbullah's missles that can reach Tel-Aviv and Jerusalem. We wanted (and still want) to destroy those supplies and, eventually, destroy the suppliers.
S3nd K3ys
SainT wrote:
S3nd K3ys wrote:
SFMeatwad wrote:
just because some of their soldiers got captured.


That's not the only reason why, but it was the straw that broke the camel's back.


Not really, but you can say so... I guess.
We were also very worried about Hizbullah's missles that can reach Tel-Aviv and Jerusalem. We wanted (and still want) to destroy those supplies and, eventually, destroy the suppliers.


I've studied this at length and know of many many reasons in terms of events. The bottom line is, as you say, to defeat the threat of terrorists. To stop them from doing what they've been doing for a long time. I just hope Israel is sincere in wanting to destroy the suppliers as well.

I'll say it again and again... they have ADMITTED PUBLICLY and REPEATEDLY that they will not stop until Israel is wiped out.
The Conspirator
Quote:
SainT, arguing with Conspirator is useless. He will never acknowledge the truth, nor even admit there might be another side to this.

Says the one who tries to justifies steeling other people land.

SainT: heres something you need to understand, They are militants! There is no military action that will defeat militants, There is no cease fire with militant! The only way to stop them is to stop people from joining them and the only way to do that is to defeat the reasoning behind it!
The actions of Israel has only strengthen the reasoning for Arabs across the middle east.


You won't to stop the militants? Stop all the military actions against them and start a propaganda war that demonizes the militants, using gruesome images of the victims of there attack (especially woman and children)while trying to make peace and admitting its wrong doing on that past.
S3nd K3ys
The Conspirator wrote:
Quote:
SainT, arguing with Conspirator is useless. He will never acknowledge the truth, nor even admit there might be another side to this.

Says the one who tries to justifies steeling other people land.

SainT: heres something you need to understand, They are militants! There is no military action that will defeat militants, There is no cease fire with militant! The only way to stop them is to stop people from joining them and the only way to do that is to defeat the reasoning behind it!
The actions of Israel has only strengthen the reasoning for Arabs across the middle east.


You won't to stop the militants? Stop all the military actions against them and start a propaganda war that demonizes the militants, using gruesome images of the victims of there attack (especially woman and children)while trying to make peace and admitting its wrong doing on that past.


Dude, let it go. It's Israel's land. End of story. Unless you're man enough to take it from them. Don't feel bad, it hasn't succeeded in, oh, 3,000 years...??

YOU need to understand that SainT is Israeli. I think he's got a good idea of what it's like and what's really happening over there. YOU need to understand that, as YOU said, there is no way to make the terrorists happy except for Israel to stop existing.

Luckely for the rest of us, (not you it seems), that's not an option.

Therefore, Israel should and will continue pounding the crap out of the terrorists and those who support/harbor them until they're unable to pose a threat.

Terrorists don't negotiate. They understand one thing.
The Conspirator
Justifying something that is wrong is amoral, you are amoral. war or no, steeling is wrong.
Get morality

Quote:
YOU need to understand that SainT is Israeli. I think he's got a good idea of what it's like and what's really happening over there. YOU need to understand that, as YOU said, there is no way to make the terrorists happy except for Israel to stop existing.

I didn't appease them, I said destroy there reasoning and that can not be done militarily.
HoboPelican
S3nd K3ys wrote:

...It's things like trying to relate a person bumping into you on the street with somone blowing up your 3 year old daughter in a market with a bomb strapped to thier *** that show your true level of denial.
...
Call it what it is, hobo: Terrorists don't want Israel to exist. Period. They've said it repeatedly, they won't rest until Israel is GONE.
....



Sendkeys, as usual you see only what you want to see and ignore everything that disputes your views. You are constantly proven wrong and instead of admitting it, you go off on a tangent, trying to avoid reality.

You said the UN has never been effective. I post situations were they were. You ignore it.

You say Israel is showing restraint. I demonstrate your error and you change gears to saying they'll continue attacking so over-reacting was justified.

You, Saint and Conspirator all share one common thing. You all seem to have no ability to see error in yourself. You all are so set in your beliefs that you can't hear anything else. Of course there is little chance for peace in the Middle East, but it's people like you that make that true. Con and Saint can't agree on anything, it seems, but their anger seems genuine. You make light of the whole situation and your rants and jokes smell more of an instigation than actual belief.

Quote:
You're trying to put the blame and shame of terrorism on the Israelis, when all they want is to be left the **** alone...

And now who is putting words in who's mouth? I am NOT blaming Israel for the whole thing. Never said or implied it. That is another example of your blindness. I have repeatedly made the point that BOTH sides share the blame. Grow up and get some perspective, little one. It is the rare situation where one side is blameless.

You may now reply with more rants and attempts to be clever.
smalls
HoboPelican wrote:
How about a 48 hour cease-fire with the requirement that all soldiers are returned and some assurance from the Palastinians (sic) that they would work to stop the missile attacks.

Israel has already indicated that they will cease action if they get their soldiers back. Hezbollah simply hasn't acquiesced.
HoboPelican
The Conspirator wrote:
Justifying something that is wrong is amoral, you are amoral. war or no, steeling is wrong.
Get morality

Quote:
YOU need to understand that SainT is Israeli. I think he's got a good idea of what it's like and what's really happening over there. YOU need to understand that, as YOU said, there is no way to make the terrorists happy except for Israel to stop existing.

I didn't appease them, I said destroy there reasoning and that can not be done militarily.


You can't reason with sendkeys, Con. He just wants to fight and is not interested in solutions. I think you are correct in how to handle terrorists. Excessive military force only creates more ill-will and hate which breeds more terrorists. You have to find a way to minimize the hate.
The Conspirator
I am not like the. I have looked at the situation, the past and the people and I used my brain (unlike them who support Israel as if it could do no wrong.) Israeli military action has only made things worse in the past, it fueled the militants and now Israel is still using military actions that has only ever proven to make the militants stronger.
The militants attack Israel, Israel responds with military actions, which then makes the militants bigger and stronger, then they attack Israel.
Its a vicious cycle that will end in a Palestinians holocaust and a massive war that will end in the destruction of Israel and history will blame Israel which will cause a rise in anti semitism which will cause millions of innocent Jews around to suffer.
HoboPelican
smalls wrote:
HoboPelican wrote:
How about a 48 hour cease-fire with the requirement that all soldiers are returned and some assurance from the Palastinians (sic) that they would work to stop the missile attacks.

Israel has already indicated that they will cease action if they get their soldiers back. Hezbollah simply hasn't acquiesced.


Did they say that they wouldn't give them back "before" Israel stopped? I can't find a ref for that statement, so maybe you can help me. What I was proposing (as a starting point for discussion), was Israel stopping attacks as a good faith token, giving a time limit for return of the soldiers before renewing their attacks.
SainT
What I've seen for now are angry Arabs cursing the name Hizbullah, and not joining them.

If Israel stops now, Hizbullah will declare themselves as "winners" (while there aren't any winners in a war) and grow stronger.

People join to strong parties.
Hizbullah will definitely look strong if Israel stops it's actions.
SainT
They are Islamic Extremists for god's sake!

They want us dead. That's it.

There will be no good agreement until the end of days!
It's us or them. That's ****** it!
Any agreement that may be signed nowadays will be only temporary.
It's proven by a thousands year old history!

This argument dates back to the days that scientists can't point them out accurately.
Do you really think that this will end in one agreement?
HoboPelican
SainT wrote:
They are Islamic Extremists for god's sake!

They want us dead. That's it.

There will be no good agreement until the end of days!
It's us or them. That's **** it!
Any agreement that may be signed nowadays will be only temporary.
It's proven by a thousands year old history!

This argument dates back to the days that scientists can't point them out accurately.
Do you really think that this will end in one agreement?


I don't know, but I feel it's worth the effort. Can you explain to me how it goes back 1000s of years? Not trying to be flippant at all, I was just under the impression it just went back to the creation of Israel in the ''40s.
The Conspirator
SainT wrote:
What I've seen for now are angry Arabs cursing the name Hizbullah, and not joining them.

If Israel stops now, Hizbullah will declare themselves as "winners" (while there aren't any winners in a war) and grow stronger.

People join to strong parties.
Hizbullah will definitely look strong if Israel stops it's actions.

In Lebanon, yes but were not talking about just the Lebanese, there are the Palestinians, Iranian, Jordanians, Saudi Arabians and many other country's, look at the big picture, this war is just a peace of a puzzle, you have to put all the peaces together to see the picture.
HoboPelican
SainT wrote:
What I've seen for now are angry Arabs cursing the name Hizbullah, and not joining them.

If Israel stops now, Hizbullah will declare themselves as "winners" (while there aren't any winners in a war) and grow stronger.

People join to strong parties.
Hizbullah will definitely look strong if Israel stops it's actions.


Good points. But do you think it's true that people join strong parties? I would have thought that people join people who have similar beliefs. And is it really the winner if Israel stops with the condition that they hand over the soldiers and whatever else gets tied to the cease fire? They may yell that they won, but people will know that Israel was the stronger power and was showing restraint for a short period of time.
The Conspirator
SainT wrote:
They are Islamic Extremists for god's sake!

They want us dead. That's it.

And you can defeat them by defeating there motivation. If there is no motivation to fight, them there will be no fight.
peroxide
Hezbollah needs to be wiped out. Hamas captured one Israeli soldier. Fine, Israel retaliates by moving in to Gaza and bombing targets. Then Hezbollah does what? They cross the border and capture two Israeli soldiers on Israeli soil. Then, they fire thousands of rockets from areas which are densely populated by civilians. Who have murdered those civilians then? Israel or the Hezbollah? All Israel are doing is keeping their eyes on some monitor or screen back at their control centers, and when someone starts firing rockets, they hit back with artillery fire right back at the place where the rockets originated.

Is Israel supposed to just sit back and not do anything about the launchers just because they're in a civilian zone? Following that same logic, Iran and Syria could move their entire armies into civilian zones and fire missiles and rockets all day long at Israel without getting hit back. Who are the real murderers?
The Conspirator
peroxide: you really don;t know whats going on do you?
nopaniers
Quote:
Who have murdered those civilians then? Israel or the Hezbollah?


Israel.
felisleo
why did the palestinians kidnap that israili soldier?
because they wanted the prisoners ,most of whom were arrested without realistic proof by force at palestinian land and put in jails which are no better than hell ,to be let go free in which they probably had their fathers or brothers.They knew no other way
why did hosbullah kidnap the two israili soldier?
because israil got into gazze again violated palestinian land crashed down the entire area killed many people .they have sworn to protect the palestinians .that s why they exist.
why is hisbullah is keeping to attact?
because israil is keeping to bomb lebanon destroyin their airways roads plants..israil have already killed 200 people.
how would the war stop?
if israil stops bombing lebanon lets some prisoners go or at least judge them in courts and leaves palestinia alone the war would definetly stop.
are arabs willing to wipe out the israilis?
although the extremists say they want to i don t think many of the arab community think that. at least they must have realised it is not possible.israil has every right to exist but as long as they dont give palestinia complete freedom i dont think the war will end.
Soulfire
Perhaps Israel should just blow up the entire middle east - then there would be no war for us to bicker over on Frihost. Not that this war affects us, or anything, it just gives us another thing to complain about in the world is all.
nopaniers
Perhaps if Israel would just stop killing innocent people there would be nothing for us to bicker about.
fribee
I'm not a terror supporter, Saint, but do you know
what really is terrorism?

Obviously in your sense its somebody who tries to
get rid of the illegal occupier of his land!

For me this is self-defense....

Sorry


Fribee
felisleo
felisleo wrote:
why did the palestinians kidnap that israili soldier?
because they wanted the prisoners ,most of whom were arrested without realistic proof by force at palestinian land and put in jails which are no better than hell ,to be let go free in which they probably had their fathers or brothers.They knew no other way
why did hosbullah kidnap the two israili soldier?
because israil got into gazze again violated palestinian land crashed down the entire area killed many people .they have sworn to protect the palestinians .that s why they exist.
why is hisbullah is keeping to attact?
because israil is keeping to bomb lebanon destroyin their airways roads plants..israil have already killed 200 people.
how would the war stop?

if israil stops bombing lebanon lets some prisoners go or at least judge them in courts and leaves palestinia alone the war would definetly stop.
are arabs willing to wipe out the israilis?
although the extremists say they want to i don t think many of the arab community think that. at least they must have realised it is not possible.israil has every right to exist but as long as they dont give palestinia complete freedom i dont think the war will end.


yes.. i am too lazy too rewrite..
selim06
I want to tell a different point(forgive me if that posted before).
at most there are only 8-10 Million Israeli people.But at least there are 250 Million Arabs!(see the page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabs).
Take a look to Middle East Map:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/Middle_east_graphic_2003.jpg
Israel is still too small although there is a USA Support!
So how can Israel showing a domination on Arabic Countries and still leaving?
In my opinion it depends on the history and nationalism!
After the dissolution of Ottoman Empire and the Arab Revolt, new goverments had raised!Such as Palestine, Lebanon,Jordan,Syria,Israel(after some times),Egypt etc...So except Egypt and Israel(may be not) none of them had found a "strong" government!So they wanted to growth and stay strong by nationalism(Each of them wanted to be a strong empire!)
To develop nationalism in a country,there must be a "National Enemy"(Remember Russian-American cold war:in this period in USA the nationalism raised).A country must be steady against a National Enemy!So the Arab Governments had to choose a National Enemy.There were 3 option: either Turks or Persians or Israelis(Jewish people).So they chosen Israel!Now if Israel drop down Arab Governments also drop down. They need Israel and also Israel needs Arabs...
Isn't it logical?
SainT
fribee wrote:
I'm not a terror supporter, Saint, but do you know
what really is terrorism?

Obviously in your sense its somebody who tries to
get rid of the illegal occupier of his land!

For me this is self-defense....

Sorry


Fribee


Terror for you is self-defense?
M8, God help you... You better find yourself a bunker right away.

For me, Terrorism is a strategy of using violence (ie suicide bombers) to provoke fear amongst civilans (I'm afraid to ride a bus, for example), and eventually, to help the terror organizations get their demands; whether political, religious or personal. That's what I think terrorism is all about.
SainT
The Conspirator wrote:
SainT wrote:
They are Islamic Extremists for god's sake!

They want us dead. That's it.

And you can defeat them by defeating there motivation. If there is no motivation to fight, them there will be no fight.


Dude, as long as we live, they'll have the motivation to fight us.
Eliminating their motivation = eliminating Israel.

selim06, you're talking about governments.
Israel hasn't declared a war with any of those. Israel is at a war with a TERROR ORGANIZATION called "Hizbullah" and "Hamas", and not a country.
Ok?
The Conspirator
Quote:
For me, Terrorism is a strategy of using violence (ie suicide bombers) to provoke fear amongst civilans (I'm afraid to ride a bus, for example), and eventually, to help the terror organizations get their demands; whether political, religious or personal. That's what I think terrorism is all about.

So, the allied bombings of civilian targets, the fire bombing of Dresden and Tokyo, the dropping of nukes on Hiroshima and Nagasaki during WW2 was terrorism?
Terrorism is subjective, one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. Keep that in mind.
Why do you think I've been using the word militants and not terrorists?
nopaniers
I disagree that nationalism is a good thing. The Ba'ath party is a nationalist party. The Nazi party is a nationalist party. It leads people to see their country as more important, and leads to attitudes that other people's lives are less important which is completely wrong. As the Lebanese Prime Minister said: Are Lebanese lives worth less than others?
The Conspirator
Quote:
Dude, as long as we live, they'll have the motivation to fight us.
Eliminating their motivation = eliminating Israel.

Wrong. Theses millitint grupes are fulsed by the people who join them.
Its like an immortal monster, you can't kill it with guns and bombs, but you can starve it to death.
If Israel stops demonizing it self (which makes them look like hero's) and starts demonizing them in the eyes of the Palestinians while trying to find a peaceful solution.
People don't generally won't war but against a grate evil they are will to fight and die. To the Palestinians and Arabs across the middle east Israel looks like a very big evil. Thats what Israel needs to address to defeat there motivation.
HoboPelican
SainT wrote:

Dude, as long as we live, they'll have the motivation to fight us.
Eliminating their motivation = eliminating Israel.



I think you are wrong, my man. Sure there will always be a few people who hate Israel, but the more you act like the US and throw your weight around without regard to the international community, the larger that group of Israeli haters is going to be. Conversely, if you show restraint, work with the legal government to stop the missles. then you start to cut off the hate. Less hate, less people willing to pick up arms against you.

I know you just want to wipe out your enemies, but I think you are going to find out the hard way that a strong conventional army is going have a hard time wiping out this kind of enemy.
HoboPelican
SainT wrote:


Terror for you is self-defense?
M8, God help you... You better find yourself a bunker right away.

For me, Terrorism is a strategy of using violence (ie suicide bombers) to provoke fear amongst civilans (I'm afraid to ride a bus, for example), and eventually, to help the terror organizations get their demands; whether political, religious or personal. That's what I think terrorism is all about.


Was it you, SainT, or someone else who tried to justify Israelis bombing civilians in order to force them to turn against the terrorists? That would seem to match your definition of terrorists. Violence to provoke fear for a purpose.

I am not taking sides, just trying to get you to see things from a different perspective. YOU think you are defending yourself. Others see you being as bad as the terrorists.
selim06
nopaniers wrote:
I disagree that nationalism is a good thing. The Ba'ath party is a nationalist party. The Nazi party is a nationalist party. It leads people to see their country as more important, and leads to attitudes that other people's lives are less important which is completely wrong. As the Lebanese Prime Minister said: Are Lebanese lives worth less than others?

I didn't say that Nationalism is a great thing!I said that they use nationalism..Now the nationalism causes new deaths and new wars...As Lebanese Prime Minister said:
Quote:
Are Lebanese lives worth less than others?

Quote:
selim06, you're talking about governments.
Israel hasn't declared a war with any of those. Israel is at a war with a TERROR ORGANIZATION called "Hizbullah" and "Hamas", and not a country.
Ok?

And Hizbullah and Hamas are also political parties and now they administrate the countries...
BTW:Don't say that Israel fights for alliance and peace!Israel growing and the borders are expanding..
SainT
Other see wrong.
Other's brains are washed by Hizbullah.

You tell my why those poor civilians are protecting Hizbullah, hiding Hizbullah's weapons in their houses, and when, obviously, those houses are destroyed for being "weapon vaults", those poor civilians cry to the world that the evil Israelis destroyed their little humble homes?

Well, of course I feel sorry for them!
My friend's home is also destroyed! So I quite understand them for being "homeless".
But my friend wasn't hiding weapons nor protecting a terror organization, was he?

So sure. Israel are bunch of evil terrorist and Hizbullah are freedom fighters.

Hail Hizbullah.

Anyway, this is pointless to discuss this shit.
Even if you do, somehow, change my point of view (or vice versa), that'll give nothing.

I'm wasting my time here. Sayonara.
The Conspirator
Quote:
Other's brains are washed by Hizbullah.

Or your brain has been washed by a govermint who wonts war.

You can't see the reality of whats going on by looking at one tinny persecutive, you have to look at the situation as a whole from different persecutive, even those you disagree with.
Those who know and understand there enemy's can more easily defeat there enemy's. But you don't wont to understand, you just won't to kill. And thats the problem, thats the mindset that is going to get you, your family and millions of Israelis killed and Israel destroyed. And history will blame Israel for all the whit going on there.
S3nd K3ys
con, hobo, pain, and the rest of the Frihost Denial Department, pay attention... pay close attention.

If terrorists laid down their weapons tomorrow and stopped attacking Israel, there would be peace.

If Israel laid down their weapons tomorrow and stopped attacking terrorists, Israel would be exterminated.

Get it?

terrorists don't want Israel to exist. Period.

Why won't ANY of you terrorist supporters admit or even acknowledge that? Are you really in denial that badly? Or are you doing it on purpose.

I'm starting to wonder if this really IS a cultural (religious) war. The more I read here the more I realize how utterly dysfunctional terrorists are.


Idea
S3nd K3ys
HoboPelican wrote:


You can't reason with sendkeys, Con. He just wants to fight and is not interested in solutions. I think you are correct in how to handle terrorists. Excessive military force only creates more ill-will and hate which breeds more terrorists. You have to find a way to minimize the hate.



You're partially correct, hobo, YOU can't reason. Wink

It's because YOU can't accept one simple fact.

terrorists do not want Israel to exist.

No matter what.

Just admit that! The terrorists already have! Numerous times!

But you won't, becuase you know that the instant you admit, or even acknowledge it, your arguments are null and void because at that point you will realize Israel is fighting for survival.
The Conspirator
No, on both counts. Israel dose not won't peace, Is the militant layed down there arms Israel would start killing them.

If Israel keeps this shit up, it will be destroyed. The only solution is for Israel to try and find a peaceful solution.
Helios
IMO Israel will also lay down it's weapons.

Anyway, I came here with a warning.
If you don't start talking nicely here and respect each other, I'll take the full responsibility on erasing and locking this whole forum.
S3nd K3ys
The Conspirator wrote:
No, on both counts. Israel dose not won't peace, Is the militant layed down there arms Israel would start killing them.

If Israel keeps this **** up, it will be destroyed. The only solution is for Israel to try and find a peaceful solution.


You mean if Israel bends over and concedes to the terrorists, it will be destroyed.

Have a look at what terrorists are saying about Israel.. (if you're not afraid of the truth, that is)

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,19731461-401,00.html

Quote:

'Remove' Israel, Iran calls
From: Agence France-Presse
From correspondents in Tehran

July 09, 2006


IRANIAN President Mahmoud Ahmadinejed called on Islamic countries Saturday to mobilise against Israel and "remove" the "Zionist regime".
"The basic problem in the Islamic world is the existence of the Zionist regime, and the Islamic world and the region must mobilise to remove this problem," the president said at the opening of a two-day regional conference on security in Iraq .

...

Iran does not recognise Israel and is opposed to a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.



http://www.danielpipes.org/article/113

Quote:


Arabs Still Want to Destroy Israel

by Daniel Pipes
Wall Street Journal
January 18, 2002

Last June, Palestinian television broadcast a sermon in a Gaza mosque in which the imam, Ibrahim Madi, made the following statement: "God willing, this unjust state Israel will be erased; this unjust state the United States will be erased; this unjust state Britain will be erased."

...

Osama bin Laden years ago declared a jihad against all Christians and Jews while his friend Mullah Omar, the Taliban dictator, talked publicly about "the destruction of America," which he hoped would happen "within a short period of time." That militant Islamic leaders wish the same for Israel should hardly be news. The most powerful of them all, Iran's supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, recently called for "this cancerous tumor of a state be removed from the region."





Now go back and look at the two scenarios again.

If terrorists laid down their weapons tomorrow and stopped attacking Israel, there would be peace.

If Israel laid down their weapons tomorrow and stopped attacking terrorists, Israel would be exterminated.
The Conspirator
Quote:
You mean if Israel bends over and concedes to the terrorists, it will be destroyed.

I never said that!
I said find a peacfull solution not give them everything they wont!
rafifaisal
i have one question to my collegue above.
OK Israel is fighting for it's survival and the safety of it's population and bla bla bla all your other arguements.

But please tell me. Up to today what have the bombings of Lebanon accomplished ? ?

1 Israel is getting sucked in a swamp of war called FIBUA (guerilla like fighting in cities)

2 The bombings by Hezbollah have tripled over the last week so clearly the israeli bombings are not effective or aimed at the right targets.

3 Simon Peretz (Israeli Minister of Defence) said that they are bombing key locations that are important for the Hezbollah. You tell me... how can an international airport or the north of Lebanon be a key to the operations of Hezbollah. They are firing from a small range not far from the border.

4 By their campaign the popular support for the Hezbollah has grown in Lebanon there where in the past it was mainly an Iranian tool.



Please think about the Israeli actions.
Surely their are other means to solve this.
Starting by allowing an international army force lead by the French who have been allies of Lebanon for a long time.
S3nd K3ys
The Conspirator wrote:
Quote:
You mean if Israel bends over and concedes to the terrorists, it will be destroyed.

I never said that!
I said find a peacfull solution not give them everything they wont!


Doesn't matter what YOU said. What the TERRORISTS SAID is that they don't want peace, they want israel REMOVED.

What part of REMOVED don't you understand? No matter WHAT Israel does, short of self destruction, the terrorists won't be happy and won't stop attacking.

It's really not that complicated. Or so it would seem.
HoboPelican
S3nd K3ys wrote:
HoboPelican wrote:


You can't reason with sendkeys, Con. He just wants to fight and is not interested in solutions. I think you are correct in how to handle terrorists. Excessive military force only creates more ill-will and hate which breeds more terrorists. You have to find a way to minimize the hate.



You're partially correct, hobo, YOU can't reason. Wink

It's because YOU can't accept one simple fact.

terrorists do not want Israel to exist.

No matter what.

Just admit that! The terrorists already have! Numerous times!

But you won't, becuase you know that the instant you admit, or even acknowledge it, your arguments are null and void because at that point you will realize Israel is fighting for survival.


You make it too easy, Sendkeys, you just proved you are not interested in talking solutions, just killing.

Again, Sendkeys mule-headness tries to de-rail any talk of solutions. He ignores the stated issues that working to undermine the terrorists base has a good chance of decreasing the number of terrorist, which would decrease their effectiveness. He ignores the fact that the attacks are doing little good, but gathering suppport for Hamas around the world. He ignores the fact that the UN talking war crimes. He ignores any rational conversation and only wants to spout his one line solution. Kill them all and anyone near them.

Your point about the terrorist not wanting Israel to exist is so rudimentary its not worth talking about (I never disagreed, but you'd have to read to know that). What I have been saying is that you can ease the hate in general and weaken their base. Come on, child, read and think.

Can you respond to serious issues without being flippant? I doubt, but hope springs eternal.


BTW - sendkeys, I have backed down in numerous discussions, I don't have an issue with it. YOU are the one who runs and hides when his facts are proven wrong (facts, not believes). Its a immature tactic , but one we expect from you.
S3nd K3ys
rafifaisal wrote:
i
1 Israel is getting sucked in a swamp of war called FIBUA (guerilla like fighting in cities)

2 The bombings by Hezbollah have tripled over the last week so clearly the israeli bombings are not effective or aimed at the right targets.

3 Simon Peretz (Israeli Minister of Defence) said that they are bombing key locations that are important for the Hezbollah. You tell me... how can an international airport or the north of Lebanon be a key to the operations of Hezbollah. They are firing from a small range not far from the border.

4 By their campaign the popular support for the Hezbollah has grown in Lebanon there where in the past it was mainly an Iranian tool.



1 Should Israel give up and be destroyed so there can be peace? Because that's what it will take.

2 hesbolla has over 12,000 rockets that are very easy to hide. it's going to take time.

3 Wow, That's basic warfare. Airports, fuel depots, communications, all are strategic targets to prevent hesbollah from being re-supplied or retreating.

4 Don't understand the question.

Quote:
Please think about the Israeli actions.
Surely their are other means to solve this.
Starting by allowing an international army force lead by the French who have been allies of Lebanon for a long time.


The war is not so much against Lebanon. It's against hesbollah, who are controlling Lebanon. If the Lebonese governmet would remove hesbollah, hostilities would end today. Lebanon won't even tell them to leave, they're basically supporting them. And until they stop, Israel will continue to defend herself.

Quote:

Your point about the terrorist not wanting Israel to exist is so rudimentary its not worth talking about (I never disagreed, but you'd have to read to know that). What I have been saying is that you can easy the hate in general and weaken their base. Come on, child, read and think.


Rudimentary? Not worth talking about?

Terrorists want to destroy Israel.

Israel want's to exist.

How would you handle it? Given that deplomacy has NOT worked in thousands of years? Rolling Eyes
HoboPelican
SainT wrote:
Other see wrong.
Other's brains are washed by Hizbullah.

You tell my why those poor civilians are protecting Hizbullah, hiding Hizbullah's weapons in their houses, and when, obviously, those houses are destroyed for being "weapon vaults", those poor civilians cry to the world that the evil Israelis destroyed their little humble homes?



If your really gone, SainT, sorry to see you go.

Helios, if things don't settle down into a reasonable discussion, you have my support in locking it. Unfortunately, people here are as polarized as they are in the ME. No room for differing thoughts.

I, for one, would like to see this continue, as Ive learned quite a bit.
The Conspirator
S3nd K3ys wrote:
The Conspirator wrote:
Quote:
You mean if Israel bends over and concedes to the terrorists, it will be destroyed.

I never said that!
I said find a peacfull solution not give them everything they wont!


Doesn't matter what YOU said. What the TERRORISTS SAID is that they don't want peace, they want israel REMOVED.

What part of REMOVED don't you understand? No matter WHAT Israel does, short of self destruction, the terrorists won't be happy and won't stop attacking.

It's really not that complicated. Or so it would seem.

Its not about the militants, its about the people. The people will support the militants as long as Israel is evil in there eyes.

Make peace with the Palestinians people and the monster starves.
rafifaisal
What experience do you have in warfare if I may ask ? ?
One of the basics of warfare against guerilla is to get allies.
If I may believe the Israeli authorities, this war is not against Lebanon. By no means. And Lebanon want to help the israelis in this issue.
BUT by bombing these different locations which are of vital importance for the population the israeli are loosing the only allie they may have in the region.

Do you really think that Hezbollah are getting their Iranian and Syrian made missiles over the airport Laughing
Oh man you are so naive, sorry to say. But you are believing the Israeli politicians word by word...
HoboPelican
The Conspirator wrote:

Doesn't matter what YOU said. What the TERRORISTS SAID is that they don't want peace, they want israel REMOVED.

What part of REMOVED don't you understand? No matter WHAT Israel does, short of self destruction, the terrorists won't be happy and won't stop attacking.


You are still missing the point. What Con and I are saying is that by trying to minimize the hatred, you cut the legs off the popular support and new recruits. Give a shot at addressing those issues instead of just ranting.
HoboPelican
S3nd K3ys wrote:

Quote:

Your point about the terrorist not wanting Israel to exist is so rudimentary its not worth talking about (I never disagreed, but you'd have to read to know that). What I have been saying is that you can ease the hate in general and weaken their base. Come on, child, read and think.


Rudimentary? Not worth talking about?

Terrorists want to destroy Israel.

Israel want's to exist.

How would you handle it? Given that deplomacy has NOT worked in thousands of years? Rolling Eyes


Geez, is English a second language for you? (If it is, appologies) Yes, it's rudimentay. Basic, a given, no argument. We all get that and dont dispute it. Rolling Eyes Now read the rest of the quote.
S3nd K3ys
This is like tennis. Who's serve? Laughing

HoboPelican wrote:
The Conspirator wrote:

Doesn't matter what YOU said. What the TERRORISTS SAID is that they don't want peace, they want israel REMOVED.

What part of REMOVED don't you understand? No matter WHAT Israel does, short of self destruction, the terrorists won't be happy and won't stop attacking.


You are still missing the point. What Con and I are saying is that by trying to minimize the hatred, you cut the legs off the popular support and new recruits. Give a shot at addressing those issues instead of just ranting.


No, hobo, I'm not. You have missed two points:

1), con didn't say that, I did. Wink

And

2) I'm forty one years old. I've seen this crap going on for quite a while. I've been on both sides of this argument. This and many other arguments. (You will too as you mature. I hope.)

I know what you're saying. I really do. I was saying the very same thing you're saying the last time this happened: "Why doesn't Israel just leave everyone over there alone!!!"

Let me explain.

There is no "minimizing" the hatred. It's been tried. It's been tried over and over. The only thing that will make the terrorists happy is the removal of Israel. Removal. The one thing that will make Israel happy is to be left alone.

Israel has given up so much so many times trying to appease these terrorists. So much so that now they're left clinging to this little sliver of land, saying once again on one knee with their hands clasped together: "please just leave us alone and we'll give you (insert land here, like Gaza, West Bank, Lebanon)" Israel has tried numerous times to negotiate with the terrorists, and every time they are lied to and attacked again.

In Lebanon's case, the occupation was for the very purpose of keeping hesbollah from being a threat to Israel. The UN was supposed to make sure hesbollah did not become a threat, and we all see what happened over 6 years... 13,000 rockets pointed at Israel again.

All illegal rockets pointing at Israel.

So Israel has watched this buildup. They've known it was coming. Just not when.

Hesbollah hides missles in houses and garages, dresses like citizens, and hides. Then they kill 8, and capture 2 INSIDE SOVERIEGN NATION'S BORDERS to provoke them so they can start lobbing rockets while hiding, knowing Israel will have to defend herself, and in doing so, will have to hit civilian targets. Thus making them look bad. I understand it also creates more terrorists when Israel retaliates. But we have to deal with it. More will be created and attack anyway. No matter what. Until they're gone.

Now, after 10 days, we have over 300 civilian deaths. IMNSHO, Israel has done an EXCELLENT job at protecting Lebanese citizens, including warning them of pending attacks.

Hesbollah then shows film of the damage to 'apartments' and 'homes', but doesn't show the destroyed rockets. That looks bad for Israel and they have to deal with that. And they are. Very efficiently, considering the circumstances. Israel could, if it wanted, have eliminated hesbollah on the first day of fighting. Without nukes.


Quote:
Helios, if things don't settle down into a reasonable discussion, you have my support in locking it.

It's so wonderful that you've given concent to close the thread. The moderators couldn't and wouldn't do it without you! Wink
The Conspirator
Quote:
There is no "minimizing" the hatred. It's been tried.

In what universe? It has never been tried, all Israel has ever done is add to it.
S3nd K3ys
HoboPelican wrote:
S3nd K3ys wrote:

Quote:

Your point about the terrorist not wanting Israel to exist is so rudimentary its not worth talking about (I never disagreed, but you'd have to read to know that). What I have been saying is that you can ease the hate in general and weaken their base. Come on, child, read and think.


Rudimentary? Not worth talking about?

Terrorists want to destroy Israel.

Israel want's to exist.

How would you handle it? Given that deplomacy has NOT worked in thousands of years? Rolling Eyes


Geez, is English a second language for you? (If it is, appologies) Yes, it's rudimentay. Basic, a given, no argument. We all get that and dont dispute it. Rolling Eyes Now read the rest of the quote.


Rolling Eyes

You will not ease the hate. It's been tried. Israel has been trying for thousands of years. The US for half a century. Deplomacy won't work.
The Conspirator
Quote:
You will not ease the hate. It's been tried. Israel has been trying for thousands of years.

1. Israel hasn't been around for over two thousand of years. Modern Israel is no more ancient Israel than modern, Egypt is ancient Egypt. Modern Israel, Egypt, Greece are not the same country's as there ancient counterparts, the ancient country's are long dead. The modern country only bare the same name.
2. Israel has never tried to lessen the hatred of Israel, they have done the opposite. The occupation of Gaza and other areas, the building of settlements, the pointless military action against militants, the killing of civilian's. All those have only strengthened the hatred of Israel.


Edit: A question just popped into my mind. Israels at war with Hesbala, Hamas and the other militant groups right? So doesn't that make the Israeli solder kidnapped by them POW's
S3nd K3ys
The Conspirator wrote:
Quote:
There is no "minimizing" the hatred. It's been tried.

In what universe? It has never been tried, all Israel has ever done is add to it.


Add to the hatred how?

By it's existance? By defending herself? By fighting terrorists?

If it's any of the above, sign me up, I'll add to the hatred to defend my existance any day.
The Conspirator
By occupying Gaza and other areas, (which has made Israel less safe), by building settlements, by assassination of Palestinian, missile attack in Palestinians territory, military incursions into Palestinian territory, killing civilian's (weather intentional or not), and the biggest one, kicking Palestinians off land thats rightfully theres.
Oh and waking out on middle east peace conferences cause one bastard blows himself up, which is the out come he wonted.
S3nd K3ys
The Conspirator wrote:

In what universe? It has never been tried, all Israel has ever done is add to it.


Take a deep breath, con. You're not going to like this. (Or you'll ignore it all together)

You really need to do some objective reseasrch on Israel's history and the Arabs constant battle to inject their own false history and eliminate Israel's true history.

http://www.mythbustingthemideast.com/talkingp.html#landforpeace wrote:
# In 1993, Yasser Arafat (the leader of the PLO) chose the 'peace of the brave' and the Oslo Accords were agreed upon in the famous handshake with Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin on the Whitehouse lawn. This Accord adheres to the tenet of 'Land for Peace'.

# Since the Accords, 98% of the Palestinians now live under the administration of the Palestinian Authority. In return, and instead of peace, Israel has suffered innumerable terrorist attacks resulting in a 250% increase in casualties*: over 1200 murdered since Oslo (9 September 1993 - 31 December 2003).

# Arafat, and other PA leaders, frequently refer to all agreements with Israel as Hudabaiya (temporary) agreements. On 18 December 2001, the Nobel Prize winning terrorist made a speech in Arabic to a crowd in Ramallah, inciting them to martyrdom and conquest of Christian holy sites in Jerusalem:

"The Oslo Agreement is a Trojan horse with which to get senior Palestinian leaders into Israel.... The intifada that the Palestinians began last year represents their coming out of the insides of the horse."

"This brave people will continue to protect and defend our holy land with its blood and soul, and all its property... we will sacrifice ourselves for our holy places, and we will establish our dominion over them. We are prepared to give 70 of our martyrs for every martyr of theirs in this campaign... One martyr in Jerusalem is worth 70 martyrs elsewhere..."

"Palestinian youth will wave the flag of Palestine, Allah willing, over the walls of Jerusalem, its churches and its mosques, whether someone likes it or not, and whomever does not like it can drink the water of the Dead Sea."

Following this speech, Arafat's Fatah Tanzim and Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade (part of Fatah) became responsible for the majority of attacks against Israelis.

Three days prior to this speech, Arafat had made a different speech to the English-speaking press, calling for an end to all violence against Israel. [He was real SINCERE. Can't you tell?]

# Feisal Husseini, appointed by Arafat as a Jerusalem Affairs minister, was portrayed as a moderate by the Western media. Even Husseini recognized the Palestinian intention to use the 'peace agreements' as a stepping stone to destroy Israel. In his last interview, given to Egypt's Al-Arabi newspaper, Husseini said:

"The Oslo accords were a Trojan horse; the strategic goal is the liberation of Palestine from the [Jordan] river to the [Mediterranean] sea..."

# The Oslo Accords required the Palestinian Authority to remove the parts of the Palestinian National Charter of 1968 which call for Israel's destruction through terrorism and the violent establishment of a Palestinian state over the territory of Israel AND Jordan -- the area defined as 'Palestine, the Jewish National Homeland' during the British Mandate (Article 1). The PA has never met this Oslo requirement or altered it's intention to destroy Israel.

* Article 9 of the Charter: "Armed struggle is the only way to liberate 'Palestine' (previously defined in Article 1 as Israel AND Jordan).

* Article 10: "Commando action [read: terrorism] constitutes the nucleus of the Palestinian popular liberation war."


The Palestinian National Council has never revoked these articles.

# The Phased Plan for the Destruction of Israel was adopted by the PA after the Arabs were defeated in 1973 after initiating the Yom Kippur War. This plan is referred to often by Arafat and other PA leaders. It states it's basis is the Palestinian National Charter, which defines Palestine as the territory comprising Israel AND Jordan, as per the British Mandate. The Plan calls for:

* "...armed struggle, to liberate Palestinian territory and to establish the independent COMBATANT national authority over every part of Palestinian territory." - Article 2

* "...the aim of completing the liberation of all Palestinian territory," (Israel AND Jordan) in order to further Arab unity. - Article 8


The Palestinian National Council has never renounced this Phased Plan.

# At the Camp David Summit (11-21 July 2000) Arafat was offered an independent Palestinian State in the West Bank and Gaza. According to media reports, which include statements made by both President Clinton and Prime Minister Barak, the State of Israel offered some major compromises:

* Israeli redeployment from 95% of the West Bank and 100% of Gaza

* Creation of a Palestinian state in the areas of Israeli withdrawal

* Removal of isolated settlements and transfer of the land to Palestinian control

* Other Israeli land (portions of the Halutza Dunes) exchanged for West Bank settlements close to Israel, which would be annexed to Israel

* Dividing Jerusalem, giving Palestinians control of most of East Jerusalem (not the Jewish Quarter)

* "Religious sovereignty" over the Temple Mount, replacing Israeli sovereignty in effect since 1967

* The ground-rules of the Camp David talks established that, in the absence of an agreement, these concessions negotiating positions are no longer valid and are rendered null and void.


Arafat rejected this offer WITHOUT MAKING ANY KIND OF COUNTEROFFER and WALKED OUT. Shortly thereafter he initiated the 'Al Aqsa Intifadeh', a.k.a. the 'Oslo War'.

# Contrary to popular belief, Prime Minister Sharon's 2000 visit to the Temple Mount did NOT start the Al Aqsa Intifadeh.

* PA Communications Minister, Imad Al-Faluji, visited Lebanon and on 3 March 2001 spoke at the Ein Al-Hilweh refugee camp. The Lebanese rag Al-Safir quoted Al-Faluji as stating that the Al-Aqsa Intifada was premeditated:

"Whoever thinks that the Intifada broke out because of the despised Sharon’s visit to the Al-Aqsa Mosque, is wrong... This Intifada was planned in advance, ever since President Arafat’s return from the Camp David negotiations, where he turned the table upside down on President Clinton."

He made similar statements to the PA-controlled Al-Ayyam paper on 6 December 2000.

* Arafat-appointed Fatah Central Committee member, Sakhr Habash, similarly said on 7 December 2000 in an interview with the PA-controlled Al-Hayat Al-Jadida paper:

"...[after] analyzing the political positions following the Camp David summit, and in accordance with what brother Abu Ammar [Arafat] said, it became clear to the Fatah movement that the next stage necessitates preparation for confrontation."

* BEFORE the failure of the Camp David Summit, some Palestinian groups threatened the upcoming intifadeh:

o Arafat himself on 26 June 2000, a month before the Summit, was quoted by Al-Hayat (London paper) as saying: "Whoever forgot should remember the [Palestinian victories in] the battle of Al-Karameh, [Jordan, 1968], the battle of Beirut [1982], and in the 7 years of the Intifada. We are ready to erase everything [i.e. the peace process] and resume [the struggle] from the beginning.."

o On 20 June 2000 the PA Justice Minister, Freih Abu Midein, was quoted in Al-Hayat Al-Jadida (a PA-controlled paper): "In the past we lost a 100,000 martyrs and now we are ready to sacrifice five or six thousand... No matter how many martyrs the Palestinian people sacrifice, at the end of the day the Jewish people will be the ones to pay the price."

o The day before the Summit (10 July 2000) Khaled Musmar, Deputy Head of the National Guidance Directorate, was quoted by PA-controlled Al-Hayat Al-Jadida as saying: "We are not afraid of the sounds of the weapons. As President Abu-Ammar [Arafat] said in the past, we are all seekers of shahada [martyrdom]. So it was in the past and so it will be in the future until either our people's will is realized, or we become martyrs. This is the big difference between us and [the Israelis]. THEY LOVE LIFE AS MUCH AS WE LOVE SHAHADA."


Source: MEMRI


* On the Thursday before PM Sharon's visit to the Mount, an Israeli Border Patrol soldier was murdered by a double roadside bomb inside Israel

* The morning before PM Sharon's ascent, a Palestinian policeman on joint patrol with his Israeli 'partner' opened fire on that 'partner', murdering the Israeli policeman in cold blood

* While PM Sharon was on the Mount, cameras recorded large mounds of rocks, later used by Palestinians to throw at Israeli policemen and Jewish worshippers below at the Western Wall, which had been trucked to the site in a premediated move

* The sermon given at the mosque after Sharon's visit included this statement: "We want the battle against the enemy to be orderly. We want dead amidst the enemy. We want to kill and not be killed. We must fight guerrilla warfare."

* As an Israeli citizen, PM Sharon has every right to ascend the Temple Mount, Judaism's holiest site.

* PM Sharon did not approach Muslim areas of worship while on the Mount.

*There were 477 murdered victims of terror between 1967 and the Oslo Accords.


Keep in mind that Jews lived in the Middle East and Persian Gulf region for more than 2.500 years. That's more than 1.000 years before Islam existed. The Jews won that land from the Canaanites, who no longer exist. Palestine has NO CLAIM to that land.

Israel represents one-tenth of 1 percent of the landmass in that region, yet that's too much for the Arabs.
HoboPelican
The Conspirator wrote:
Quote:
You will not ease the hate. It's been tried. Israel has been trying for thousands of years.

1. Israel hasn't been around for over two thousand of years. Modern Israel is no more ancient Israel than modern, Egypt is ancient Egypt. Modern Israel, Egypt, Greece are not the same country's as there ancient counterparts, the ancient country's are long dead. The modern country only bare the same name.
2. Israel has never tried to lessen the hatred of Israel, they have done the opposite. The occupation of Gaza and other areas, the building of settlements, the pointless military action against militants, the killing of civilian's. All those have only strengthened the hatred of Israel.


Edit: A question just popped into my mind. Israels at war with Hesbala, Hamas and the other militant groups right? So doesn't that make the Israeli solder kidnapped by them POW's


Yeah, Sendkeys, I gotta ask where you come up with this thousands of years stuff? Explain?

Well, the whole thing seems to be going down the tubes. Israel appears ready for a full scale invasion. It would be nice to see the UN proceed with the war crime charges it has spoken of in this mess.
nopaniers
You're 41?! Surprised

Quote:
I was saying the very same thing you're saying the last time this happened.


So considering that this tactic failed last time, and led to rise of Hezbollah, why do you possibly think that it will work this time?

Quote:
In Lebanon's case, the occupation was for the very purpose of keeping hesbollah from being a threat to Israel.


Yes. Which is exactly what was happening. The newly elected anti-Syrian government in Lebanon had disbanded Palestinian several militias, and had started three months of national dialogue, trying to figure out how to bring Hezbollah forces under central control.

I thought you liked free democracies? Now you're in favour of bombing those same new democracies, destroying their infastructure, killing innocent civilians and undermining democratically elected leaders.

Quote:
knowing Israel will have to defend herself, and in doing so, will have to hit civilian targets. Thus making them look bad.


Israel doesn't have to do anything, least of all kill innocent people. Hitting civilian targets is a war crime. The Geneva conventions limit targets to targets which you can demonstrate have a military purpose. Hitting civilian roads, bridges, powerstations, ports, airports, appartments, Red cross offices, the UN, fleeing civilians, foreign nationals, ambulances, a medical convoy, pretty much every significant bridge in the country and four factories is not connected to Hezbollah, and bombing them is illegal and immoral.

Please tell me what military use it is to bomb an ambulance? Or a paper tissue factory?

Quote:
Now, after 10 days, we have over 300 civilian deaths.


So, let me get this straight: Israel has killed over 300 civilians innocent civilains, and that is justified by the kidnap of two soldiers? What rubbish. The killing of innocent civilians is never justified, and certainly not by a kidnapping. If you want to save two lives, it is wrong to kill 300 people to do that... and the soldiers aren't even dead!
S3nd K3ys
HoboPelican wrote:
The Conspirator wrote:
Quote:
You will not ease the hate. It's been tried. Israel has been trying for thousands of years.

1. Israel hasn't been around for over two thousand of years. Modern Israel is no more ancient Israel than modern, Egypt is ancient Egypt. Modern Israel, Egypt, Greece are not the same country's as there ancient counterparts, the ancient country's are long dead. The modern country only bare the same name.
2. Israel has never tried to lessen the hatred of Israel, they have done the opposite. The occupation of Gaza and other areas, the building of settlements, the pointless military action against militants, the killing of civilian's. All those have only strengthened the hatred of Israel.


Edit: A question just popped into my mind. Israels at war with Hesbala, Hamas and the other militant groups right? So doesn't that make the Israeli solder kidnapped by them POW's


Yeah, Sendkeys, I gotta ask where you come up with this thousands of years stuff? Explain?



Whoa. THAT'S denial at it's finest! Shocked

I guess you haven't heard of the Bible or the Jews or Jerusalim or Jesus Christ or Nazzarith?

Perhaps you've heard that the current year is 2006, and that Jesus Christ, the Jew from Nazzarith who lived in Jerusalim 2000 years ago, died for our sins in the holy land promised to the Jews in the Bible by God?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_history#Ancient_Jewish_History_.28through_150_CE.29

Quote:
Well, the whole thing seems to be going down the tubes. Israel appears ready for a full scale invasion. It would be nice to see the UN proceed with the war crime charges it has spoken of in this mess.


That's your opinion. IMNSHO, it's finally going to start heading in the right direction. And there's many Arab countries that agree with Israel.

I agree that an invasion will create more annimosity against Israel and ultimately more terrorists.

But it will also bring out their true colors. It will force many ignorant people who have been living with their heads in the sand to wake up and make a choice. The ultimate choice. The choice to be able to make a choice.
rafifaisal
Your question about the kidnapped soldiers is interesting.
First of all strictly taken the hezbollah fighter that is being captured does NOT fall under the rules of POW because:

In principle to be entitled to prisoner of war status the captured service member must have conducted operations according to the laws and customs of war, e.g. be part of a chain of command, wear a uniform and bear arms openly. Thus, franc-tireurs, terrorists and spies may be excluded. In practice these criteria are not always interpreted strictly. Guerrillas, for example, may not wear a uniform or carry arms openly, yet are typically granted POW status if captured.---> which did not happen in Guantanamo or similar camps. Only recently. However, guerrillas or any other combatant may not be granted the status if they try to use both the civilian and the military status. Thus, the importance of uniforms — or as in the guerrilla case, a badge — to keep this important rule of warfare.

So I think these solders are POW's, BUT will they be granted this status by the Hezbollah ? ? ?
I don't think so. And all of this thanks to the Americans who kept thousands of prisoners in inhuman conditions in different camps. Not to talk about these secret flights to unknown parts of the world where the prisoners where tortured. So hey... don't get mad if these soldiers are being kept in a dark room, tortured and kept hungry, thirsty,...
Provided that they are alive ofcourse Confused which I doubt
HoboPelican
S3nd K3ys wrote:
This is like tennis. Who's serve? Laughing

HoboPelican wrote:
The Conspirator wrote:

Doesn't matter what YOU said. What the TERRORISTS SAID is that they don't want peace, they want israel REMOVED.

What part of REMOVED don't you understand? No matter WHAT Israel does, short of self destruction, the terrorists won't be happy and won't stop attacking.


You are still missing the point. What Con and I are saying is that by trying to minimize the hatred, you cut the legs off the popular support and new recruits. Give a shot at addressing those issues instead of just ranting.


No, hobo, I'm not. You have missed two points:

1), con didn't say that, I did. Wink

I know you said it, that is why I adderssed it to you. The quotes just got mixed up.
Quote:

There is no "minimizing" the hatred. It's been tried. It's been tried over and over.

41? Heck, you still got a long way to go, son.
When has it been tried? Examples would be good. Once you supply those attempts we can talk about how long they tried and any easing of tensions that happened around those periods.

Quote:
....<lots of valid points clipped to save space>


Those are the most coherent things Ive seen you say here. Much of what you say is correct. Israel has had an incredibly hard (almost impossibly so) existence. And up until recently Iwould have supported them without a second thought, but I see them, in this case, drastically over-reacting. Worse, I think that it is going to increase distrust and hatred towards Israel, not just in arab countries, but world-wide. And, as I keep harping on, this is just going to instigate more people to join the terrorist ranks
nopaniers
That doesn't answer the question. Israel was not even a Jewish state at the time of the Romans. Why do you think it was the telling argument against Jesus was that he was making himself equal to Caesar? Only the Romans had the power to put Jesus to death. It was only at the end of the 1800's that organized emmigration began with the plan of increasing the Jewish population in Israel, and at the end of WW2 the Jewish state was established.

Of course, you might be saying that Jewish people have been persecuted in exile, and you would be right. The irony is that they were often treated much better in Muslim countries than in Christian ones. For example, while Jews were being persecuted in Christian Europe they often fled to Moorish Spain. When the Christians took over they started the inquisition... But then there doesn't seem much point in blaming Palestinians for how Christian Europe treated Jews.
HoboPelican
S3nd K3ys wrote:
HoboPelican wrote:
....
Yeah, Sendkeys, I gotta ask where you come up with this thousands of years stuff? Explain?



Whoa. THAT'S denial at it's finest! Shocked

I guess you haven't heard of the Bible or the Jews or Jerusalim or Jesus Christ or Nazzarith?


Of course, we know all that, sendkeys, but we are talking about the country of Israel and its problems with arab countires, not the history of the Jews. To imply that islamic terrorists have hated and attacked Israel for thousands of years is just hyperbole, if not just downright lying.
S3nd K3ys
nopaniers wrote:


So considering that this tactic failed last time, and led to rise of Hezbollah, why do you possibly think that it will work this time?


It failed because Israel was forced to leave Lebanon by the UN and told the UN would protect them. Which they haven't. They let hesbollah re-arm, to the tune of 13,000 rockets. Illegal rockets.

This time, Israel will not stop until they finish the job. Israel got shit on last time, it won't happen again.


Quote:
So, let me get this straight: Israel has killed over 300 civilians innocent civilains, and that is justified by the kidnap of two soldiers?


Justified? Depends on your interpretation.

It is definately a valid reason, because you have to consider the nature of the attackers of Israel. Israel has gone to great lengths to spare civilian casualties. Sometimes it can't be helped, so you'll have to deal with that, even if it means more terrorists will come from it.

Honestly, though, you really do need to look beyond the civilians. There's more to it than that. The civilians are nothing but propaghanda, shields and camoflage to terrorists. They don't care about the civilians except that they're a source for political gain and leverage thru deciept.

If you're NOT going to look beyond the civilians, you need to look at who is really targeting them, who is hiding amung them, and who is using them as a shield, and who is trying hard to minimize their casualties. Again, and I've said this before, Israel could have ended this on day one. But they're concerned about civilian casualties so they are careful.
S3nd K3ys
HoboPelican wrote:
Israel has had an incredibly hard (almost impossibly so) existence.


Why was it so hard?

Quote:
And up until recently Iwould have supported them without a second thought, but I see them, in this case, drastically over-reacting.


Depending on your answer to the question above, you will likely answer my next question... should Israel continue to appease them and continue to get shit on?

Quote:
Worse, I think that it is going to increase distrust and hatred towards Israel, not just in arab countries, but world-wide. And, as I keep harping on, this is just going to instigate more people to join the terrorist ranks


Any time terrorists can use civilians as propoghanda, they will gladly sacrifice said civilians to advance their cause. In fact, that's one of terrorist's biggest and most powerful weapons; propoghanda.
nopaniers
S3nd K3ys wrote:
It failed because Israel was forced to leave Lebanon by the UN... This time, Israel will not stop until they finish the job.


Israel occupied Lebanon for 18 years, in which time violence against it increased, and it was unable to stop that violence by military means. In 18 years of military attempts Israel could not overcome Hezbollah. Forget this "finishing the job" rubbish. In 18 years they could not achieve it, in fact it led to more resistance to Israel not less. There is no reason to think they will be able to achieve it now.

Quote:
It is definately a valid reason, because you have to consider the nature of the attackers of Israel.


The nature of the "attack" on Israel was the kidnap of two soldiers. Kidnapping people does not justify killing hundreds of innocent people. It does not justify starting wars.

Quote:
Honestly, though, you really do need to look beyond the civilians.


Well you obviously have. This is bad on so many levels.

Israel is bombing a democracy, weakening a democractically elected government. The people who brought in the Cedar revolution are being crushed by Israeli forces. Nobody in the West apart from the UN is speaking out against this. This is the crushing of a new democracy, the worst possible thing that Israel could do. Who do they think will take the place of the destroyed anti-Syrian Lebanese government?
S3nd K3ys
nopaniers wrote:



The nature of the "attack" on Israel was the kidnap of two soldiers. Kidnapping people does not justify killing hundreds of innocent people. It does not justify starting wars.


The "nature" of the attack was:

1 Buildup of ILLEGAL missiles in Lebanon aimed at Israel.

2 An ACROSS the border incurssion in which 8 soldeiers were murdered.

3 An ACROSS the border incurssion in which 2 soldiers were kidnapped to be used as trading material.

4 A barage of missiles fired into Israeli cities, AT CIVILIAN TARGETS.

In other words, the power-weilding faction in Lebanon came across soveriegn borders, (tresspassed), killed 8, kidnapped 2, then started shooting missiles at civilians.
nopaniers
None of those things justify the killing of hundreds of innocent people, and it is dishonest to say that Israel's motivation for starting the war is things which happened after it started.
S3nd K3ys
nopaniers wrote:
None of those things justify the killing of hundreds of innocent people, and it is dishonest to say that Israel's motivation for starting the war is things which happened after it started.


Israel did not start this war. Israel is defending herself.

Quote:

While part of that 2000 deal for Israel to withdraw from southern Lebanon included the Lebanese army taking control of the border, Hizbollah kept control of southern Lebanon for itself. Hizbollah is safe in the knowledge that the rest of the world will forget that part of the deal.
nopaniers
Hezbollah is not a state.

And it is not defending yourself when you bomb people who are unrelated to the conflict.
S3nd K3ys
nopaniers wrote:
Hezbollah is not a state.

And it is not defending yourself when you bomb people who are unrelated to the conflict.


Hesbollah is all over Lebanon. hesbollah is the strongest military (and controller) in Lebanon. That was honestly weak and shallow on your part to deny Israel the right to defend herself.

Should Israel just let hesbollah bomb them into oblivion? Oh, that's right, you don't think Israel has a right to exist, do you?

Lebanon is related to the conflict. You're just in denial. Lebanon is the originating country of the attack on Israel, hence Israel is defending herself. No, hesbollah is not the 'recognized' government, but they ARE the power holding faction, therefore representing the country.

If Lebanon doesn't agree, then they need to denounce hesbollah and ask for Israel's help in ridding them of hesbollah. (Israel is already going to do that, and nobody will stop them, so it's just politics for Lebanon)
nopaniers
Quote:
Should Israel just let hesbollah bomb them into oblivion?


No, Israel should strengthen the democratically elected government of Lebanon. They should be supporting the national dialogue, to bring all the forces in Lebanon under central control. What they are doing is strengthening Hezbollah, weakening the national government, destroying Lebanon's economic ability to survive and killing hundreds of people.

Quote:
Oh, that's right, you don't think Israel has a right to exist, do you?


Are you sure that you are 41 and not 14?
S3nd K3ys
nopaniers wrote:

No, Israel should strengthen the democratically elected government of Lebanon.


Oh.

Really?

How's that? By removing hesbollah from Lebanon, or allowing it to stay and run the country.

Quote:
They should be supporting the national dialogue, to bring all the forces in Lebanon under central control. What they are doing is strengthening Hezbollah, weakening the national government, destroying Lebanon's economic ability to survive and killing hundreds of people.


National dialog to bring the 'all the forces' together? So you DO support hesbollah?

You DO realize that Hesobllah IS the big military force in Lebanon, don't you? Rolling Eyes

How would YOU remove hesbollah?

Would you remove hesbollah?
HoboPelican
S3nd K3ys wrote:
HoboPelican wrote:
Israel has had an incredibly hard (almost impossibly so) existence.


Why was it so hard?

The only thing hard about it was that only you didnt see that it wasnt being disputed. I have never been anti-Israel, it just seems that you see ANY statement that they are at all wrong as a denial of their right to exist. Go back through my posts and youll see that I am condemning certain acts as being illegal and immoral, not denying their struggle or right to exist.

Quote:

Quote:
Worse, I think that it is going to increase distrust and hatred towards Israel, not just in arab countries, but world-wide. And, as I keep harping on, this is just going to instigate more people to join the terrorist ranks


Any time terrorists can use civilians as propoghanda, they will gladly sacrifice said civilians to advance their cause. In fact, that's one of terrorist's biggest and most powerful weapons; propoghanda.


Again, I have never disagreed. Read my posts. Terrorists are evil, cowardly scum. If Israel used surgical, clandestine strikes to eradicate cells and heads of the terrorists groups, I probably would defend them. But instead, they started a war against an entire country. The loss of innocent, civilian lives is not justified.

There were better ways to protect itself. They choose to slaughter indiscriminately.
S3nd K3ys
HoboPelican wrote:


they started a war against an entire country.


No they did not. Israel is defending herself.
HoboPelican
S3nd K3ys wrote:
HoboPelican wrote:


they started a war against an entire country.


No they did not. Israel is defending herself.


Ah, yes they did. Whether justified or not, they are attacking a country. You can argue right and wrong, but that is a fact.
S3nd K3ys
HoboPelican wrote:
S3nd K3ys wrote:
HoboPelican wrote:


they started a war against an entire country.


No they did not. Israel is defending herself.


Ah, yes they did. Whether justified or not, they are attacking a country. You can argue right and wrong, but that is a fact.


Military factions from Lebanon CAME ACROSS THE BORDER AND MURDERED SOLDIERS AND KIDNAPPED SOLDIERS.

They were attacked.

Rolling Eyes
HoboPelican
S3nd K3ys wrote:
HoboPelican wrote:
S3nd K3ys wrote:
HoboPelican wrote:


they started a war against an entire country.


No they did not. Israel is defending herself.


Ah, yes they did. Whether justified or not, they are attacking a country. You can argue right and wrong, but that is a fact.


Military factions from Lebanon CAME ACROSS THE BORDER AND MURDERED SOLDIERS AND KIDNAPPED SOLDIERS.

They were attacked.

Rolling Eyes


So, you admit it was a faction and not the country of Lebanon.
Glad that is established. Now we can address the level of reaction. How many Israelis were killed and taken in that attack? How many innocents killed in the repraisals? How many actual terrorist were killed?
nopaniers
S3nd K3ys wrote:
How's that? By removing hesbollah from Lebanon, or allowing it to stay and run the country.


You have yet to explain how you think this will weaken Hezbollah. Israel occupied Lebanon, trying exactly the same thing as they are doing now, and it did not work. Lebanon is 39% Christian and has a 50% Christian parliament. Even they are being bombed. Israel has destroyed the power of people who were their allies, bombed their cities and pissed many of them off.

Quote:
How would you remove hesbollah?


Well, I suggest that the only way to do it is through dialogue. Here in Britain that is exactly how it worked. I can walk the streets without fear of being bombed by the IRA. It's not leaving bombs in supermarkets, the underground, and it's not shelling 10 Downing Street. Surpisingly, we didn't bomb Ireland, or kill hundreds of innocent civilians!

How did they do it? Through the democratic process. It marginalizes people who would try violent means. Here, the peace process backed the peace process in good faith. That is exactly what was happening in Lebanon too, and it was having real results as was so obvious with the Cedar revolution, and the disbanding of Palestinian militant groups ... but now... it all changed. Lebanon is being destroyed, and Israel is making herself hated. Those who wanted violence are delighted, but everyone else wonders why the their homes are being destroyed when all they were doing was going about their daily lives.
HoboPelican
nopaniers wrote:

Quote:
How would you remove hesbollah?


Well, I suggest that the only way to do it is through dialogue. Here in Britain that is exactly how it worked. I can walk the streets without fear of being bombed by the IRA. It's not leaving bombs in supermarkets, the underground, and it's not shelling 10 Downing Street. Surpisingly, we didn't bomb Ireland, or kill hundreds of innocent civilians!

How did they do it? Through the democratic process. It marginalizes people who would try violent means. Here, the peace process backed the peace process in good faith. That is exactly what was happening in Lebanon too, and it was having real results as was so obvious with the Cedar revolution, and the disbanding of Palestinian militant groups ... but now... it all changed. Lebanon is being destroyed, and Israel is making herself hated. Those who wanted violence are delighted, but everyone else wonders why the their homes are being destroyed when all they were doing was going about their daily lives.


Good example. Sendkeys, this would seem to be a good example of this tactic working. I would like to see your response to this, also.
maclui
HoboPelican wrote:
nopaniers wrote:

Quote:
How would you remove hesbollah?


Well, I suggest that the only way to do it is through dialogue. Here in Britain that is exactly how it worked. I can walk the streets without fear of being bombed by the IRA. It's not leaving bombs in supermarkets, the underground, and it's not shelling 10 Downing Street. Surpisingly, we didn't bomb Ireland, or kill hundreds of innocent civilians!

How did they do it? Through the democratic process. It marginalizes people who would try violent means. Here, the peace process backed the peace process in good faith. That is exactly what was happening in Lebanon too, and it was having real results as was so obvious with the Cedar revolution, and the disbanding of Palestinian militant groups ... but now... it all changed. Lebanon is being destroyed, and Israel is making herself hated. Those who wanted violence are delighted, but everyone else wonders why the their homes are being destroyed when all they were doing was going about their daily lives.


Good example. Sendkeys, this would seem to be a good example of this tactic working. I would like to see your response to this, also.


Dialog, that word is banned from US and Israel dictionaries. They have not used that word since...never. It is fun, Iran cannot have a civilian nuclear power plant and Israel how ever bears several A-boms for military purposes. Two sticks to measure the samething.
People around the world asks why the US, the police and righteus judge of the world has not done anything to solve this situation. The answer is that they are already doing their part, saying nothing and doing nothing, what the US is more likely to do next is send US troops, and lethal warfare to help Irael fight Lebanon, Syria, and the ones that join World War 3.
foodman
well both sides are completely wrong. the ones who get hurt or killed or lose there things are the ones that we should surrport.
The Conspirator
Ok theres been allot of posts in this thread sine I was last here the day before yesterday so I just scanned the posts.

S3nd K3ys: Ancient Greece is dead, ancient Egypt is dead and ancient Israel is dead, there modern counterparts are not the same as the ancient country's. Israel(ancient) is dead, Israel(modern) didn't exist before the late 1940's. The Palestinians have owned that land for well over a thousand years and just cause some foreigner are part of a particular religion dose not mean that they have any more rights to that land. No religious group has any right to any land cause the are part of the religious group. The Palestinians have been on that land for hundreds of generations the Israelis come from other country in Europe and the middle east and and for like 90% of them there ancestors have not been on that land for hundreds of generations and have no way of proving that there ancestors were ever from that land, there ancestors could have concerted a thousand years ago and there is no way of knowing cause it happened so long ago.

Israel has never tried to make peace, actions speak louder than words.
Military actions against the militants that has repeatedly failed miserably and only increased the hatred of Israel and made more militants, the expectation for the Palestinians authority doe do something against the militant while fully aware that if the Palestinian authority did any to try and stop the militants the Palestinian authority would be obliterated by the militants thus making the situation worse for both sides, the occupation of Gaza and other areas which has weekend Israel made the Israeli people less safe, the building of settlements which angered allot of Palestinians and made more militants.
So ether the Israeli government is full the stupidest people on earth or the Israeli government has a strategy of making things worse for an ultimate goal of giving Israel an excuse to start a big war and commit a holocaust on the Palestinian people.
nopaniers
One question I have is... How will US support for Israel go down in Iraq?
The Conspirator
nopaniers wrote:
One question I have is... How will US support for Israel go down in Iraq?

Bad, very bad.
diverden
Quote:
Incidentally, I think people often confuse religion with culture. Like conflicts everywhere else, I think the problems in this region have absolutely nothing to do with religion and everything to do with differences of culture.



Can any culture be described without including religion, since it affects the behavior, economy, politics, personal freedoms, etc... I would agree that the religion and culture are separate if you look in the dictionary, but they are tied to each other, especially in an area of the world that takes religious fervor to extremes.
horseatingweeds
The Conspirator wrote:
nopaniers wrote:
One question I have is... How will US support for Israel go down in Iraq?

Bad, very bad.


Your assumption doesn’t surprise me but I think the Iraqi people deserve more credit than this. Iraq could easily become an ally to Israel. Just because Iraq is predominantly Muslim doesn’t mean they HAVE to hate Jews.

I think the Iraqi people have earned at least the benefit of the doubt.
The Conspirator
It has nothing to do with Judaism (though there is allot of antisemitism in the middle east, predominantly caused by the existence and actions of Israel) it has to do with a hatred of Israel. No Arab nation will ever support Israel (a hatred that is growing) . At the most, they will live with it.
S3nd K3ys
Dialogue.

Yes.

Lets have talks with these cowardice terrorists. No, really. I mean, it's worked so well in the past 30 years hasn't it? Rolling Eyes













Nawww, ****** that.

And ****** the terrorists.

And ****** anyone who supports them.

I have a little advice for any civilians that think there might be terrorist rockets in their garage... get them the ****** out so you don't get bombed.

I also have some advice for countries that let terrorists embed themselves into the community... get them the ****** out so you don't get bombed.

The chicken-**** terrorists are hiding rockets and radar etc etc in homes and mosques, then dressing up like civilians and hiding amung them. They're ****ing cowards.
Helios
Chill out s3nd k3ys! Evil or Very Mad

IMO you're right, but let's keep this discussion at somewhat high level.
S3nd K3ys
Sorry, but I'll try. It's hard to 'chill out' when I see all these people in-directly supporting terrorists.

I guess I just have to remember that they're not all as adament about freedom as I am.

Sorry if I offended any terrorist supporters here. Crying or Very sad
polarBear
From the moment you are cheerleading a terrorist country, you are actually supporting terrorists DIRECTLY... which turn out to be very, very interesting.

Being favored by the US doesn't make them a country that doesn't govern its country imposing fear and death towards any possible opponent. Historically it's actually been the opposite, but that is another matter.
S3nd K3ys
polarBear wrote:
From the moment you are cheerleading a terrorist country


Laughing Laughing Laughing

Sorry, you seem to be highly confused (again) and have greatly distanced yourself from reality. Wink
polarBear
Not really, it's just I'm 72hs away from flying to Syria and +-80hs to entering Beirut. Sorry if I disappointed you, my dear troll, but, AGAIN, you're wrong.

Perhaps you should reconsider your position, it has to be tiresome to be a complete dickhead 24/7
S3nd K3ys
polarBear wrote:
Not really, it's just I'm 72hs away from flying to Syria and +-80hs to entering Beirut. Sorry if I disappointed you, my dear troll, but, AGAIN, you're wrong.

Perhaps you should reconsider your position, it has to be tiresome to be a complete dickhead 24/7


You don't dissapoint me, you bring teh funnay. It may seem rude, but your ignorance is highly amusing to me.
polarBear
http://www.google.com.ar/search?hl=es&q=define%3Aterrorist+&meta=
http://www.google.com.ar/search?hl=es&q=define%3Aterrorism&meta=
Very Happy

So, my dear terrorist lover, when do you plan to blow yourself on a bus?

Pray

Well, this has been the last time I talk to a terrorist. Have fun with the virgins in whatever you call your heaven!
S3nd K3ys
polarBear wrote:
http://www.google.com.ar/search?hl=es&q=define%3Aterrorist+&meta=

Very Happy

So, my dear terrorist lover, when do you plan to blow yourself on a bus?

Pray


Terrorism defined.







polarbear owned Wink
polarBear
You're SO funny, my dear terrorist lover, that you almost made me yawn. Oh, yes. So funny. So? Do you always do this when you don't have a point?

PS: Oh, yeah, I'm SO owned... leave the keyboard to your son, I'm quite sure he can make a better point than you. And he probably isn't a terrorist supporter like you have proven to be.
Helios
What's written in the first picture is:

רוח צה"ל = The way of IDF.

Just for the protocol...
The Conspirator
Quote:
I mean, it's worked so well in the past 30 years hasn't it?

I would have an effect is Israel would try it.
S3nd K3ys
The Conspirator wrote:
Quote:
I mean, it's worked so well in the past 30 years hasn't it?

I would have an effect is Israel would try it.


Try what? Being left alone?

Aint gonna happen 'til the terrorists are gone. Laughing Laughing Laughing
HoboPelican
S3nd K3ys wrote:
The Conspirator wrote:
Quote:
I mean, it's worked so well in the past 30 years hasn't it?

I would have an effect is Israel would try it.


Try what? Being left alone?

Aint gonna happen 'til the terrorists are gone. Laughing Laughing Laughing


Every now and then Sendkeys says something worth reading. Something that is not a rant and is not a simple cut/paste. It's been about 5 days so far.

You can point out possible solutions and if they aren't his, he'll call you a fool.

You can prove his statements wrong and he'll sulk until he thinks people have forgotten the facts and then restate his lies.

If he has no valid argument, he'll just insult, usually swearing in the process.

He'll rant about people being blind while he is totally incapable of seing anything that doesn't match his limited world view.

But every forum needs a clown for us to laugh at. Firhost Sendkeys.
The Conspirator
S3nd K3ys wrote:
The Conspirator wrote:
Quote:
I mean, it's worked so well in the past 30 years hasn't it?

I would have an effect is Israel would try it.


Try what? Being left alone?

Aint gonna happen 'til the terrorists are gone. Laughing Laughing Laughing

Diplomacy, with out waling out cause 1 man blows himself up or demanding unreasonable demands.
horseatingweeds
The Conspirator wrote:
It has nothing to do with Judaism (though there is allot of antisemitism in the middle east, predominantly caused by the existence and actions of Israel) it has to do with a hatred of Israel. No Arab nation will ever support Israel (a hatred that is growing) . At the most, they will live with it.


My point is that just because Iraq is an Arab country doesn’t mean they will be anti-Israel. I think the Iraqis have proven this and have earned a better image than you have painted.

I’ll take a wager that Iraq will eventually be allied with Israel, unless of course they stop fighting the terrorists, then there will be no Israel.
nopaniers
No. The reason I would suggest that they don't like Israel has nothing to do with them being Jewish. It is because they are blowing up innocent Shiites in Lebanon. That can't be good for US-Shiite relations in Iraq, and is sure to anger many of the Iraqi politicians who have much the same ties as Hezbollah does.
The Conspirator
Quote:
I’ll take a wager that Iraq will eventually be allied with Israel, unless of course they stop fighting the terrorists, then there will be no Israel.

If they do keep fighting, than there will be no Israel, If they make peace with the Palestinian People, than Israel can survive.
HoboPelican
horseatingweeds wrote:

I’ll take a wager that Iraq will eventually be allied with Israel, unless of course they stop fighting the terrorists, then there will be no Israel.


Interesting. Time frame? I assume you'd be putting up all your frih$. What odds and are you serious?
horseatingweeds
nopaniers, would you relax about the Jewish.

If these ties exist, perhaps Iraq could one day be helpful in convincing their Shiite brethren and the rest of Palestine and the rest on the anti-Israel world to pose some reasonable demands. Also, being angry is one thing, not supporting is another.

Iraq has proven her character. We have seen this in how the population has dealt with the Shiite / Sunni blood shed. The people of Iraq are learning, as I hope the rest of the ME will soon, that violent acts against your neighboring tribesman or infidel is not glorifying your God and making you a hero it is a crime against your society and makes you a criminal.

Conspirator,

If by ‘make peace with’ you mean ‘remove all terrorists from’ you are perhaps correct.
horseatingweeds
HoboPelican wrote:
horseatingweeds wrote:

I’ll take a wager that Iraq will eventually be allied with Israel, unless of course they stop fighting the terrorists, then there will be no Israel.


Interesting. Time frame? I assume you'd be putting up all your frih$. What odds and are you serious?


Yuper-doodls

I would say frih$100, trade agreement of some sort, five years.
HoboPelican
horseatingweeds wrote:
HoboPelican wrote:
horseatingweeds wrote:

I’ll take a wager that Iraq will eventually be allied with Israel, unless of course they stop fighting the terrorists, then there will be no Israel.


Interesting. Time frame? I assume you'd be putting up all your frih$. What odds and are you serious?


Yuper-doodls

I would say frih$100, trade agreement of some sort, five years.


Realistic time frame. To long of a time frame to make the bet here, but, honestly, in that time frame I wouldn't bet against it.
horseatingweeds
GASP!!! Why???? What’s gona happen to frihost?
HoboPelican
horseatingweeds wrote:
GASP!!! Why???? What’s gona happen to frihost?


Actually, I figure something is gonna happen to ME before that. Frihost will last forever!
horseatingweeds
I'll miss you.....

Wink
The Conspirator
horseatingweeds wrote:
If by ‘make peace with’ you mean ‘remove all terrorists from’ you are perhaps correct.

I mean make peace with the Palestinian people, you can not remove the militants, you can not destroy them, yo u can not make peace with them, you can only make peace with the Palestinian people and then the militant groups would begin to die out.
S3nd K3ys
nopaniers wrote:
they are blowing up innocent Shiites in Lebanon.


No.

They are targeting legetimate militant targets.

Please stick with FACTS and leave the un-educated speculation at home.

If you feel bad for the folks who are stashing rockets in their garages and their community mosques, get over it. That tactic is old and busted.
HoboPelican
S3nd K3ys wrote:
nopaniers wrote:
they are blowing up innocent Shiites in Lebanon.


No.

They are targeting legetimate militant targets.

Please stick with FACTS and leave the un-educated speculation at home.


Facts? What do you know about facts? If they are legitimate targets why is the UN talking war crimes? And I know you are just going to vomit on the UN since they feel differently thant you do, so notice nopaniers said they are blowing up innocents, not "targeting" them.

Typical Sendkeys, trying to make an end run around the facts. Don't you get tired of being shown wrong all the time?

Kids. Sheesh Rolling Eyes
S3nd K3ys
HoboPelican wrote:
S3nd K3ys wrote:
nopaniers wrote:
they are blowing up innocent Shiites in Lebanon.


No.

They are targeting legetimate militant targets.

Please stick with FACTS and leave the un-educated speculation at home.


Facts? What do you know about facts? If they are legitimate targets why is the UN talking war crimes? And I know you are just going to vomit on the UN since they feel differently thant you do, so notice nopaniers said they are blowing up innocents, not "targeting" them.

Typical Sendkeys, trying to make an end run around the facts. Don't you get tired of being shown wrong all the time?

Kids. Sheesh Rolling Eyes


Ohh nooosss... the UN talking "war crimes" Laughing Laughing Laughing

You're funny. Delusional, but funny.

If the UN had done it's job for the last 6 years we wouldn't be in this position. So in essance, the UN should be happy with the fact that it's the real cause of this whole mess. Laughing Laughing Laughing

(Oh, and BTW, war = people dying. Just a little reminder for the ignorant folk)
HoboPelican
S3nd K3ys wrote:
HoboPelican wrote:
S3nd K3ys wrote:
nopaniers wrote:
they are blowing up innocent Shiites in Lebanon.


No.

They are targeting legetimate militant targets.

Please stick with FACTS and leave the un-educated speculation at home.


Facts? What do you know about facts? If they are legitimate targets why is the UN talking war crimes? And I know you are just going to vomit on the UN since they feel differently thant you do, so notice nopaniers said they are blowing up innocents, not "targeting" them.

Typical Sendkeys, trying to make an end run around the facts. Don't you get tired of being shown wrong all the time?

Kids. Sheesh Rolling Eyes


Ohh nooosss... the UN talking "war crimes" Laughing Laughing Laughing

You're funny. Delusional, but funny.

If the UN had done it's job for the last 6 years we wouldn't be in this position. So in essance, the UN should be happy with the fact that it's the real cause of this whole mess. Laughing Laughing Laughing

(Oh, and BTW, war = people dying. Just a little reminder for the ignorant folk)

It's sad really, the way sendkey's incapable of admitting he's wrong. What was it, last week he claimed the UN was ineffectual and then totally ignored posts indicating he was wrong. The guy is like an ostrich with his head stuck in the sand whenever something threatens his world view.

Misdirection and lies. He should be a politician. Trying to substitute "Targeting" for "blowing up" is such a classic way to try and make a valid statement seem false. Too bad he is so transparent.

It would be interesting if he'd post something thoughtful, instead of just blithering.
The Conspirator
Israel says that they are not targeting civilian's but why believe them? There past actions clearly shows them to be an aggressor. And Israel has knowingly done things that has made the situation worse.
At this point anything they say should be taken with allot of scepticism.
HoboPelican
The Conspirator wrote:
Israel says that they are not targeting civilian's but why believe them? There past actions clearly shows them to be an aggressor. And Israel has knowingly done things that has made the situation worse.
At this point anything they say should be taken with allot of scepticism.

I agree that you need to use skepticism in listening to them, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt for now. Doesn't excuse their attack or their unwillingness to try to avoid civilian injuries, though.

Sendkeys, try to use some thought before responding. Bet you can't do it.
S3nd K3ys
The Conspirator wrote:
Israel says that they are not targeting civilian's but why believe them? There past actions clearly shows them to be an aggressor. And Israel has knowingly done things that has made the situation worse.
At this point anything they say should be taken with allot of scepticism.


Why believe them? Simple... this could have been over on day one. DAY ONE. But Israel has been being very careful to spare innocent lives.

They have not been that aggressive. Most of their 'action' in the last half century has been 're-action' to events spawned by terrorists. But if you only listen to the BBC, you wouldn't know that. There's a couple of *cough*news agencies*cough* that are telling both sides.

I've seen the allocations of hesbollah about the civilian targets, but they don't mention that they had rockets spewn throughout those apartment complexes. I've seen the arrogance of hesbollah, damming the entirworld because they think Damaskus and Tehran will be able to save them once the fury is truly unleashed and the fertilizer hits the ventilator.

At this point, much of what you say is irrelevant. Israel has been given the green light to remove hesbollah. Just be thankful they're doing it as civily as possible, considering the hesbollah.
The Conspirator
Quote:
Why believe them? Simple... this could have been over on day one. DAY ONE. But Israel has been being very careful to spare innocent lives.

Yeah, you should keep up with the news you don;t like as well as the news you like.

Quote:
They have not been that aggressive. Most of their 'action' in the last half century has been 're-action' to events spawned by terrorists.

Reaction that Israel knows would only make thing worse, thus Israel is an aggressor.
S3nd K3ys
The Conspirator wrote:
Quote:
Why believe them? Simple... this could have been over on day one. DAY ONE. But Israel has been being very careful to spare innocent lives.

Yeah, you should keep up with the news you don;t like as well as the news you like.

Quote:
They have not been that aggressive. Most of their 'action' in the last half century has been 're-action' to events spawned by terrorists.

Reaction that Israel knows would only make thing worse, thus Israel is an aggressor.


LoL, the people who started it are the aggressor. Please do keep up. Israel is taking that re-action because nothing else has worked in the past.

The terrorists won't stop until Israel is pushed into the Med and removed completely.

Sorry, but that's just NOT an option. Israel knows that. I know that. Do YOU know that? No? You will. Wink

I'm thinking it will be roughly a week or two more before hesbollah realizes that. (Yes, this is an open invitation to bets on how much longer it will take Israel to crush the terrorists in Lebanon. I say 14 more days before rocket attacks on Israel drop to 10% of what they were when the terrorists first started attacking Israel a couple weeks ago.)
The Conspirator
S3nd K3ys Think. If a tactic has not only failed in the past but actually there your enemy's stronger. Why are they still doing it?
When you react in a way that you know will make the situation worse, than you are an aggressor.

Perspective rules all. If you only see a situation from one perspective you will not see whats really going on. look at it from the Palestinian perspective, the Arap perspective. Look at the whole situation from the beginning from there perspectives. They steel there land, occupy there territory, build settlement in there territory, oppress there people, invade other country's. Israel is an evil to them, supported by western imperialist who won't to kill Muslims. That is who they see Israel, that is why the join the militants. That is why they fight Israel the only why they know how, by "terrorism" but they don't see it as terrorism.

Israel form the beginning has done nothing but fuel the fire now its a inferno and Israel is throwing gasoline on it. The Israeli government knows that these action do not help.
If Israel wonted peace it would never have started the war. It would be in the borders established in 1948, it wouldn't be occupying any territory, oppressing any one or invading any one. Israel is the only side that can bring peace. And guess what, there would be peace by now. The Palestinian authority can't do anything about the militants, it would be suicide, they would be killed by the militants and they would then take over, the militants are not going to quit, there militants. Israel is the only side that can help the situation but instead it demonizes itself, make them look like hero's in the eyes of the Palestinians and make them bigger and stronger.

You won't peace, change the minds of the Palestinian people, make peace with them. When they stop thinking Israel is evil then people will stop joining the militant and the militant group will die out. Cause thats the only way it will end. The militants are not going to be defeated, there not going to stop there not going to negotiate, there not going to serenader. The only way to stop them is to make peace with the Palestinian people.
S3nd K3ys
YOU think, con... the tactics in the past always included Israel having a cease fire, giving away land, prisoner trades etc etc etc, and look what it gets them... ATTACKED AGAIN.

The tactic this time is to attack until the job is finished, and NOT to depend on the worthless UN to do their job, which they OBVIOUSLY can't (or won't) do.

Rolling Eyes

And you should know by now, I have seen both sides of this fight. I used to be in your camp. I used to think Israel was just fueling the fire. But no matter WHAT Israel did to try to get peace, it was NEVER enough. The terrorists ALWAYS WANTED MORE AND WERE NEVER SATISFIED.

The terrorists will not stop until Israel is destroyed.

They admit that.

Why won't YOU accept it for face value?
The Conspirator
Will you read my posts?
Israel dose not won't peace, the evidence is in its action, occupation, oppression, settlement building, trying to get the Palestinian authority to commit suicide and war.
The militants can't be destroyed, all this war is doing is making them stronger and if Israel keeps it up Israel will be the one destroyed, not the militants.
The only way for peace to come is for Israel to make peace with the Palestinian people, instead it demonizes it self making its enemy's stronger.
Israel knows there is no cease fire with the militants, its known for decades. Even if the leader of what ever militant group legitimately agrees to a cease fire, he would be killed and the cease fire would be over. Israel knows this, yet Israel keeps knowingly asking the imposable. Why? Israel dose not wont peace.

At this point the only hope of peace and a future for Israel is for the Israeli people to rise up and over throw its war mongering government. But thats not going to happen so Israel is ******.
S3nd K3ys
The Conspirator wrote:
Will you read my posts?



I have. They all say the same old tired BS. It's old and tiring. It's also inaccurate and highly subjective.

Israel is finally doing the only thing that can be done to bring peace to the ME.
horseatingweeds
Conspirator,

I am having some trouble with your assumption as well.

1. Making peace with Palestine is not possible. They want what Israel won’t give. Israel to disappear.
2. If peace was made some how it would not lead the terrorists and militants to disband. It would more likely cause Palestine to be viewed as a traitor.

Also, Israel is doing the right thing here. The way to stop the militants is to end their support. Blowing up someone’s family doesn’t make them turn into a terrorist. It is when a group comes along with support behind it and convinces someone that all their trouble is caused by ‘those’ so let’s honor our God by going to this place where we can safely train then go to this place where we are free to move about and indiscriminately kill, to make our point about this or that.

There will always be people to convince we can’t help that. We can however remove support. Israel is trying to destroy Hesbollah not by removing each of his people but by making it to expensive to support him.

This tactic has not been used before nor will it make them stronger.

With regard to striking civilian targets, Israel has a responsibility to do this. The terrorists are using this as a tactic. First, is you hide people and weapons in homes and churches maybe they won’t be attacked. If they are not attacked this tactic will continue so we MUST attack them. Second, the terrorists use the subsequent damage and death to convince the people, not unlike yourself, that Israel is the aggressor…..
The Conspirator
Nether of you have read my posts or have any idea hoe people work.
My posts are not subjective, its the facts. If the Israel makes peace with the Palestinian people, if Israel could change there minds, he militants will die out.
If Israel keep it up, it will only end with genocide, the destruction of Israel and millions of Israelis and Palestinians dead.

Look at the facts. This war demonizes Israel which make the militants look like hero's in the eyes or the Palestinians which makes more people join the militants which makes them stronger which make the problems worse. That what the facts say, you would see that if you didn't support Israel blindly.
S3nd K3ys
The Conspirator wrote:
Nether of you have read my posts or have any idea hoe people work.
My posts are not subjective, its the facts. If the Israel makes peace with the Palestinian people, if Israel could change there minds, he militants will die out.
If Israel keep it up, it will only end with genocide, the destruction of Israel and millions of Israelis and Palestinians dead.

Look at the facts. This war demonizes Israel which make the militants look like hero's in the eyes or the Palestinians which makes more people join the militants which makes them stronger which make the problems worse. That what the facts say, you would see that if you didn't support Israel blindly.


*sigh*

Palestine peace, eh?

Peace with Palestines that openly state they don't want peace, eh?

Do you have some kind of chemical imbalance that prevents you from seeing obvious elements of certain situations?

Oh, and if the war keeps up, I seriously doubt it will be Israel which is defeated. Rolling Eyes
horseatingweeds
I have read you post.
Perhaps you have not read mine.

1. You can’t make peace with Palestine.
2. If you did they would be seen as Israel by the militants.

If Israel keeps it up they will remove support for the militants.

The fact is war is because Israel is demonized. There are those who want Israel gone so they convince others that it is evil and should be destroyed.
HoboPelican
horseatingweeds wrote:
Conspirator,
1. Making peace with Palestine is not possible. They want what Israel won’t give. Israel to disappear.
2. If peace was made some how it would not lead the terrorists and militants to disband. ..

Item1: I'm not sure if that is true. Hezbollah. sure, but I don't think that you can say the same about Palestine as a whole.

Item 2: I don't think anyone said it would cause it to disband. It is being suggested that it will reduce the base of future recruits. A along term solution.

Quote:

Also, Israel is doing the right thing here. The way to stop the militants is to end their support. Blowing up someone’s family doesn’t make them turn into a terrorist. ...

Here is where we disagree most. I believe it is exactly by blowing up someones family that you create an individual who wants revenge. It's human nature, I think.

Quote:
With regard to striking civilian targets, Israel has a responsibility to do this. ....

Sorry, no offense, but I find this absurd. They have a responsibility to break international law? A responsibility to lower themselves to the level of the terrorists? <sigh> We will never agree on this. I agree something had to be done about the attacks against Israel, but I think the route they chose was the worst possible.
S3nd K3ys
Lets try something new...

Con, HOW, EXACTALLY, shall Israel attain peace with it's neighbors?

(Hint: they've already tried 'talking' and all other sorts of 'dialog', so don't try using that)

Be specific, and be short and to the point.
S3nd K3ys
HoboPelican wrote:

They have a responsibility to break international law? A responsibility to lower themselves to the level of the terrorists? <sigh> We will never agree on this. I agree something had to be done about the attacks against Israel, but I think the route they chose was the worst possible.


Lower themselves to the level of terrorists?

OMG.,,

Terrorists TARGET CIVILIANS.

Israel is TARGETING TERRORISTS.

Israel is GOING TO GREAT LENGTHS TO NOT HURT CIVILIANS!

How is THAT lowering themselves to terrorists levels? If they carpet bombed Lebanon without warning, without precision, without regard for civilians, THEN they would be down to that level.

They're NOT DOING THAT. You just hate jews don't you?

Rolling Eyes
horseatingweeds
Quote:
With regard to striking civilian targets, Israel has a responsibility to do this. ....

Sorry, no offense, but I find this absurd. They have a responsibility to break international law? A responsibility to lower themselves to the level of the terrorists? <sigh> We will never agree on this. I agree something had to be done about the attacks against Israel, but I think the route they chose was the worst possible.[/quote]

The responsibility is to end the method the only way the method can be ended. We must not allow terrorist to use innocent people as weapons. What you propose hands countless numbers of unknowing people in danger, any times more than will be harmed if we stop the method now.

HoboPelican wrote:
Here is where we disagree most. I believe it is exactly by blowing up someones family that you create an individual who wants revenge. It's human nature, I think.


Like I said, there will never be a shortage of people at the disposal of the terrorist recruiters, their recruits don’t need to want revenge. Regardless, the terrorist aren’t after revenge.
The Conspirator
You can make peace with the Palestinian people, you can make peace with any one. Israel hasn't tried it.
Doy you think they wont war? No, but Israel has demonized it self so much that the only end they see is its destruction. They see an evil nation of evil people who would like to see them dead

Look at the present. Look at the past. Look at the reality. And stop supporting Israel, don't support any one. Look at it as if you were an alien, coming from another planet, who doesn't really care, who looks at human society like we look at chimpanzee society. What would it say about the situation? The same thing I am. Cause I don't blondly support Isreal or any one else, I look at reality and the only reason you can't see it is cause you blindly support Israel and what ever action they take.
HoboPelican
horseatingweeds wrote:

The responsibility is to end the method the only way the method can be ended. We must not allow terrorist to use innocent people as weapons. What you propose hands countless numbers of unknowing people in danger, any times more than will be harmed if we stop the method now.


Is it the only way? No other way to stop the attacks? I disagree. (And Sendkeys, I am not ignoring your request, but a long term solution is a bigger issue than this.)

Since the the Palestinian forces were unable to stop the attacks, did Israel offer military assisstance to help patrol? I know it sounds absurd, but they might have gone for it, given the alternative.

Did Israel ask any of the other Arab countries in the area to help stop the attacks?

Flat out occupation (which they eventually did anyway) would have done less collateral damge.

Smart bombs would have minimized collateral damage.

And balancing casualities is tricky. You are convinced that this will end the attacks. I'm not. I firmly believe that this is only going to cause more in the long run.
HoboPelican
The Conspirator wrote:
....Cause I don't blondly support Isreal or any one else,


This is not a funny subject in any way, but I had to laugh at that line. Sorry, Con. I know you meant "Blindly", but it was just to perfect.
horseatingweeds
HoboPelican wrote:

Is it the only way? No other way to stop the attacks? I disagree. (And Sendkeys, I am not ignoring your request, but a long term solution is a bigger issue than this.)


I didn't say it would stop attacks. I said attacking targets regardless of if it is civilian or not will end the method of using civilians to protect targets.

My conclusion with regard to stopping attacks is we need to remove the support for the attacker. This includes supporting those being attacked (Israel).

Making peace with the Palestinian people sounds nice. But like I said, the Palestinian people want more that Israel can give. Regardless, if peace was made, if everyone in all of Israel suddenly found a way to live together, these terror groups would not miss a beat. There are plenty of other things to fixate on and motivate vulnerable hurting people.
HoboPelican
horseatingweeds wrote:

I didn't say it would stop attacks. I said attacking targets regardless of if it is civilian or not will end the method of using civilians to protect targets.

Sorry I misunderstood. But I don't think that is true either. As long as there are terrorists, immoral tactics will be used. This war will not change that.

Quote:

My conclusion with regard to stopping attacks is we need to remove the support for the attacker. This includes supporting those being attacked (Israel).

We both agree on this. We simply disagree on how that is best accomplished.

Quote:

Making peace with the Palestinian people sounds nice. But like I said, the Palestinian people want more that Israel can give...

What do you think that is? What do you think the average palestinian wants that Israel cannot give? And I don't think that the average Palestinian wants Israel to cease to exist. So what do they want? Israeli settlements and intervention in Gaza to go away? Is that possible? I don't know. Thoughts?
horseatingweeds
For peace the Palestinian people must proactively not support terrorist in their midst.
HoboPelican
horseatingweeds wrote:
For peace the Palestinian people must proactively not support terrorist in their midst.

No argument. That was part of the Road Map. The Palestine governmet has to denounce any sort of terrorism. That's step one. Then they have to have security force capable of doing it and they'll need suport in that. But I'm still curious about your line:"But like I said, the Palestinian people want more that Israel can give. "

What is it that you think they want from Israel, that Israel can't give?
nopaniers
Today 4 UN observers were killed by the Israelis. They were shelled 14 times before they were killed.

Quote:
The UN in Lebanon says the Israeli air force destroyed the observer post, in which four military observers were sheltering.

It said the four, from Austria, Canada, China and Finland, had taken shelter in a bunker under the post after it was earlier shelled 14 times by Israeli artillery.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5215366.stm

And Saudi Arabia has promised Lebanon $1.5 billion.

Quote:
The king has coupled his aid promises with unusually forthright comments about the crisis.

"Saudi Arabia warns everybody that if the peace option fails because of Israeli arrogance, there will be no other option but war," he was quoted as saying by state media.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5214354.stm
polarBear
I may have said this a number of times before, but it's all that fits this situation:


LET THEM BURN. LET THEM ALL BURN. If there's no land to fight for, there's no fight.
Gundamxxg
To be honest, I don't think that this will all end well. Just from recent news and topics brought up in other forums and boards. I personally am not feeling to sure about how the govt. is handling the situation, it seems as though it is starting to turn into a holy war on all sides.

In my honest opinion if a war does break out that draws the US farther into the conflict, I see a civil war or something along those lines heading our way.
Helios
This "war" is already ended, if you ask me.

Now a diplomatic solution needs to be found...
S3nd K3ys
nopaniers wrote:
Today 4 UN observers were killed by the Israelis. They were shelled 14 times before they were killed.

Quote:
The UN in Lebanon says the Israeli air force destroyed the observer post, in which four military observers were sheltering.

It said the four, from Austria, Canada, China and Finland, had taken shelter in a bunker under the post after it was earlier shelled 14 times by Israeli artillery.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5215366.stm

And Saudi Arabia has promised Lebanon $1.5 billion.

Quote:
The king has coupled his aid promises with unusually forthright comments about the crisis.

"Saudi Arabia warns everybody that if the peace option fails because of Israeli arrogance, there will be no other option but war," he was quoted as saying by state media.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5214354.stm


Aint war a bitch? Shocked

I couldn't help but laugh when they said on the news they couldn't get 'volunteers' to do the peace patrols.
S3nd K3ys
HoboPelican wrote:
The Palestine governmet has to denounce any sort of terrorism.


Won't happen.

Quote:
What is it that you think they want from Israel, that Israel can't give?


Their EXISTENCE.

Again, in case you missed it the first 50 or 60 times it's been stated here;

The terrorists do not want Israel to exist. Period!

The terrorists do not want Israel to exist. Period!

The terrorists do not want Israel to exist. Period!

The terrorists do not want Israel to exist. Period!

The terrorists do not want Israel to exist. Period!

Can you hear me now?

As a side note... a couple of peaceniks here keep calling for dialog, discussions, deplomacy, a cease-fire, etc etc in the interests of peace.

Do you know how many 'cease-fire's' have taken place in the ME? Many more than any place else on the planet.

If something like that (peace talks, deplomacy, cease-fires etc) actually worked by, you know... promoting peace, then by all rights the ME should be the most stable, non-warring area on the planet.

But it's not.

It's the most violent.
horseatingweeds
HoboPelican wrote:
horseatingweeds wrote:
For peace the Palestinian people must proactively not support terrorist in their midst.

No argument. That was part of the Road Map. The Palestine governmet has to denounce any sort of terrorism. That's step one. Then they have to have security force capable of doing it and they'll need suport in that. But I'm still curious about your line:"But like I said, the Palestinian people want more that Israel can give. "

What is it that you think they want from Israel, that Israel can't give?


Anything and everything, land, reduced occupation, tanks on the front lawn, until the Palestinians are no longer harboring killers, I don’t see this happening though until there is a large shift in the ME and Muslim world condemning terrorists.
tadssa
how about reading this one http://www.frihost.com/forums/vt-45277.html
Lied
S3nd K3ys wrote:
HoboPelican wrote:
The Palestine governmet has to denounce any sort of terrorism.


Won't happen.

Quote:
What is it that you think they want from Israel, that Israel can't give?


Their EXISTENCE.

Again, in case you missed it the first 50 or 60 times it's been stated here;

The terrorists do not want Israel to exist. Period!

The terrorists do not want Israel to exist. Period!

The terrorists do not want Israel to exist. Period!

The terrorists do not want Israel to exist. Period!

The terrorists do not want Israel to exist. Period!

Can you hear me now?

As a side note... a couple of peaceniks here keep calling for dialog, discussions, deplomacy, a cease-fire, etc etc in the interests of peace.

Do you know how many 'cease-fire's' have taken place in the ME? Many more than any place else on the planet.

If something like that (peace talks, deplomacy, cease-fires etc) actually worked by, you know... promoting peace, then by all rights the ME should be the most stable, non-warring area on the planet.

But it's not.

It's the most violent.


Ye, and after Israel waging war on civilians neither do I. So i belive many others...
nopaniers
Israel has now destroyed 5,000 civilian homes, 3 airports, 3 ports, a lighthouse, a sewerage treatment plant, 3 dams, 62 bridges, 22 fuel stations, 600km of road, 4 radar installations, 1 military baracks (of the government), a tissue factory, a milk factory, a bottle factory, TV stations, and mobile phones, and two power plants. They've killed almost 400 civilians, and 4 UN peacekeepers.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/629/629/5218106.stm
S3nd K3ys
nopaniers wrote:
Israel has now destroyed 5,000 civilian homes, 3 airports, 3 ports, a lighthouse, a sewerage treatment plant, 3 dams, 62 bridges, 22 fuel stations, 600km of road, 4 radar installations, 1 military baracks (of the government), a tissue factory, a milk factory, a bottle factory, TV stations, and mobile phones, and two power plants. They've killed almost 400 civilians, and 4 UN peacekeepers.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/629/629/5218106.stm


And they're just getting started. They're doing a great job, aren't they? Wink

Looks like they need to step up the pace though, if they're going to achieve their goals within the allotted 2 weeks. Laughing Laughing Laughing
The Conspirator
nopaniers wrote:
Israel has now destroyed 5,000 civilian homes, 3 airports, 3 ports, a lighthouse, a sewerage treatment plant, 3 dams, 62 bridges, 22 fuel stations, 600km of road, 4 radar installations, 1 military baracks (of the government), a tissue factory, a milk factory, a bottle factory, TV stations, and mobile phones, and two power plants. They've killed almost 400 civilians, and 4 UN peacekeepers.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/629/629/5218106.stm

Yet people still say there not targeting cevilions.
Quote:
Looks like they need to step up the pace though, if they're going to achieve their goals within the allotted 2 weeks.

What? The eradication of Lebanon and the eradication of all non Israeli in the region?
S3nd K3ys
The Conspirator wrote:
nopaniers wrote:
Israel has now destroyed 5,000 civilian homes, 3 airports, 3 ports, a lighthouse, a sewerage treatment plant, 3 dams, 62 bridges, 22 fuel stations, 600km of road, 4 radar installations, 1 military baracks (of the government), a tissue factory, a milk factory, a bottle factory, TV stations, and mobile phones, and two power plants. They've killed almost 400 civilians, and 4 UN peacekeepers.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/629/629/5218106.stm

Yet people still say there not targeting cevilions.
Quote:
Looks like they need to step up the pace though, if they're going to achieve their goals within the allotted 2 weeks.

What? The eradication of Lebanon and the eradication of all non Israeli in the region?


Ok, you obviously didn't read my reply in the poll did you? Laughing

Of the 5,000 homes, only 300ish civilians killed? Damn! That's good shooting! And you said the Israeli's warning civilians wasn't working. It's working just fine. I bet they got at least 3,000 rockets in those 5,000 houses. Wink

As for the rest of the targets,

Quote:
a sewerage treatment plant, a tissue factory, a milk factory, a bottle factory,


May or may not have been what you claim they were. Terrorists are good at hiding weapons in civilian places. Shocked

All the other targets were legit.

Quote:
They've killed almost 400 civilians, and 4 UN peacekeepers.


War happens. I guarentee if the terrorists had the ability, they'd have killed thousands of civilians on the first day. From what I've heard, in Islam there is no such thing as a 'civilian'.

Like I said, I hope they can finish the great job they're doing within the allotted time.

BTW, I'll wait patiently for the list of targets by hesbollah against Israel. Rolling Eyes

Quote:
What? The eradication of Lebanon and the eradication of all non Israeli in the region?


No. Just the terrorists. How many times will you have to be slapped upside the head with reality before you start seeing them? Wink
4ndY
warmonger Evil or Very Mad
The Conspirator
Quote:
No. Just the terrorists. How many times will you have to be slapped upside the head with reality before you start seeing them?

I'm in reality, You the one ignoring the fast that th majority of the targets have little to do with with Hesbola and everything to do with the people. There cutting of the people way out and there ways of getting food to survive on. And 400 people is a very large number for them not to be targeting civilian's.

Look at the facts. Israel wont sits people and the western world to believe certain things to make it look like the good guy but when you look at the facts its clearly not only a bad guy but it is the big bad guy. Hesbolla, Hamas and the rest of the militants are bad guys but Israel is a bad guy as well.
Stop supporting Israel and start looking at situation objectively.
S3nd K3ys
The Conspirator wrote:

I'm in reality,


Ahh, yes... He who thinks denial of the holocaust was 'stupid' and that 'nobody' would possibly think it didn't happen is some how 'in reality'

Uhhh, no.

The fact that some folks DO believe the holocaust NEVER HAPPENED was (and still is) something widely known and accepted. (hint: Iran)

Quote:
Look at the facts. Israel wont sits people and the western world to believe certain things to make it look like the good guy but when you look at the facts its clearly not only a bad guy but it is the big bad guy. Hesbolla, Hamas and the rest of the militants are bad guys but Israel is a bad guy as well.


Gawd your posts are hard to read... Anyway... "wants it's people to believe blah blah blah" ???

There's a million ****ing reporters over there and cameras EVERYWHERE. Just because YOU refuse to look at BOTH SIDES doesn't mean there is no 'other side of the story'. As was proven by your uncanny ability to fall flat on your face when faced with facts (holocaust poll) you are quite in-capable of debating on a cogent and intelligent level.

Quote:
Stop supporting Israel


No. Israel was attacked. You stop supporting terrorists. Rolling Eyes
THE11thROCK™
Quote:
Israel has now destroyed 5,000 civilian homes, 3 airports, 3 ports, a lighthouse, a sewerage treatment plant, 3 dams, 62 bridges, 22 fuel stations, 600km of road, 4 radar installations, 1 military baracks (of the government), a tissue factory, a milk factory, a bottle factory, TV stations, and mobile phones, and two power plants. They've killed almost 400 civilians, and 4 UN peacekeepers.


Answer: Hezbollah terrorists are civilians in crossfire. Lol. And Hezbollah is not firing a single rocket to Israel territory.

Solution: Lebanon attacks Hezbollah and free the 2 Israeli Soldiers.

Result: No more casualties.

Lebanon's Mistake: They harbored Terrorists and made insane demands.

Result: UN and World Powers give green light to Israeli siege.

Israel Evil?: Lol, and Hezbolla and Palestenian Militants are angels?

Last resort: Let Lebanon surrender Hezbollah, and not be a hardnosed chicken.

Result: Longtime peace between Israel and Lebanon.
The Conspirator
Quote:
No. Israel was attacked. You stop supporting terrorists.

I don't support the "terrorists", I don't support any side over there.

I look at the situation objectively, I ask "what will be the effects of this war?", "How will the Palestinian people see this war?", "why do people join the militants?" and others and it is the answers to those question that my opinion is braced.

Look at the targets there attacking, factory's that have little do do with the militants. Airports, bridges, rodes, ports, TV stations, damns and other targets that box in the civilian's, cut them off from the out side world and cut off there food supply. Why? Theres no strategic reason for it.

You need to look at the situation objectively. You don't, you would support Israel no matter what it did. If Israel nuked Lebanon you would support it, if Israel sent out death squads to kill all non Israelis in the occupied by Israel, you would support it.
FunFunkyFritz
The Conspirator wrote:
...
Look at the targets there attacking, factory's that have little do do with the militants. Airports, bridges, rodes, ports, TV stations, damns and other targets that box in the civilian's, cut them off from the out side world and cut off there food supply. Why? Theres no strategic reason for it.

I think there is, they want to bring stoneage to Lebanon, just like they have already done to Gaza. Starving people are usually easier to subdue..
S3nd K3ys
The Conspirator wrote:

I look at the situation objectively, I ask "what will be the effects of this war?", "How will the Palestinian people see this war?", "why do people join the militants?" and others and it is the answers to those question that my opinion is braced.

Look at the targets there attacking, factory's that have little do do with the militants. Airports, bridges, rodes, ports, TV stations, damns and other targets that box in the civilian's, cut them off from the out side world and cut off there food supply. Why? Theres no strategic reason for it.

You need to look at the situation objectively. You don't, you would support Israel no matter what it did. If Israel nuked Lebanon you would support it, if Israel sent out death squads to kill all non Israelis in the occupied by Israel, you would support it.


There's a difference between being 'objective' and being ignorant. Let me explain.
1) Ask how the Israeli's will see this war, and why people (Arabs included) are massing against the terrorists. You only see things in favor of palestine. It's a two sided event and you refuse to accept that.
2) The targets are 98% valid military targets. Comms, Fuel, Resuppply etc. The targets the terrorists use are CIVILIAN. ALL OF THEM.
3)I used to NOT support Israel. Late in life I started looking around. Guess what I saw? Islamic ****-heads trying to kill me because I'm not a ****ing muslim. THEY admit it. Why won't you?
4) Do some research on your own. You obviously only see things from one side; the palestine side. I read Al Jazeera all the time and even THEY are less biased (ignorant?) about this two sided affair than YOU are.

Oh, wait...

Aren't you one of the freaks who thinks 9/11 was an 'inside job' ???

LoLoLoL! I'm LoL sorry. LoL I forgot. LoL That explains LoL a LoL lot about LoL you LoLoLoL!



Quote:
I think there is, they want to bring stoneage to Lebanon, just like they have already done to Gaza. Starving people are usually easier to subdue..


Yeah, LoL, that's why Israel is allowing humanitarian aid eh? That's why israel is warning people to get out of town eh? Laughing Laughing Laughing

Ahhh, sweet ignorance. *cough*denial*cough*
The Conspirator
I've looked at the whole thing from the beginning, I looked at it all objectively, you haven't. You have given excuses fro every thing Israel has done.
You support Israel cause of 9/11? You judge all Muslims cause of a few fundamentalist militants? Come on, thats ridiculous. Your not looking at it objectively. You just won't to see Muslims dead.
And I've never said 9/11 was an inside job. You would have to be crazy to say it was.
James007
People... stop the side notes.
S3nd K3ys
The Conspirator wrote:
I've looked at the whole thing from the beginning, I looked at it all objectively, you haven't. You have given excuses fro every thing Israel has done.
You support Israel cause of 9/11? You judge all Muslims cause of a few fundamentalist militants? Come on, thats ridiculous. Your not looking at it objectively. You just won't to see Muslims dead.
And I've never said 9/11 was an inside job. You would have to be crazy to say it was.


I support Israel because they're defending themselves against the same enemy I defend myself against. Terrorists.

Yes, I judge Muslims who will not denounce terrorism. I judge ANYONE who will not denounce terrorism.

Quote:
"It is a Jihad for the sake of God and will last until (our) religion prevails ... from Spain to Iraq," al-Zawahiri said. "We will attack everywhere."


Quote:
"My fellow Muslims, it is obvious that Arab and Islamic governments are not only impotent but also complicit ... and you are alone on the battlefield. Rely on God and fight your enemies ... make yourselves martyrs."


Quote:
Al Qaeda now views "all the world as a battlefield open in front of us."


Quote:
Al-Zawahiri said Muslims everywhere must rise up to attack "crusaders and Zionists" and support jihad (holy war)


Pay EXTRA CLOSE attention here, con, this is where you seem to get easily confused.

Quote:
"The war with Israel does not depend on cease-fires. ... It is a jihad (holy war) for the sake of God and will last until (our) religion prevails ... from Spain to Iraq," al-Zawahiri said. "We will attack everywhere."


Well allow me to retort...

Quote:


"We received yesterday at the Rome conference permission from the world ... to continue the operation, this war, until Hezbollah won't be located in Lebanon and until it is disarmed," he told Israel Army Radio. "Everyone understands that a victory for Hezbollah is a victory for world terror."


Oh, yeah. Did you get that 100$ donation I sent you so you could buy a subscription to Clue Magazine? Wink
tadssa
do u belive that israel will win this war ??? , lol ,
you know more than 50 years fighting the poor Palestinian , and there still resistance shooting israel bombing her , how long do u think will take this new war she started ? eh?
i hate when people speak about things they don't know !!!
but i'm sure that once israel revange from arabic children women and old people ( cause she can't touch hizbullah )she will accept international intervention , lol to save her from the "100" freedom wild fighter ,
but no !! always worng planing !! i wonder if the israeli army (or chickens)with all this weapons aircrafts ...that the israeli army have can have this fighters , lol everything will finish in 2 days !! this war will never end , or at least, husbullah are not waiting for israel army to kill them but they come to die honorly but after killing maximum chickens possible ,
lol
S3nd K3ys
tadssa wrote:
do u belive that israel will win this war ??? , lol ,
you know more than 50 years fighting the poor Palestinian , and there still resistance shooting israel bombing her , how long do u think will take this new war she started ? eh?
i hate when people speak about things they don't know !!!
but i'm sure that once israel revange from arabic children women and old people ( cause she can't touch hizbullah )she will accept international intervention , lol to save her from the "100" freedom wild fighter ,
but no !! always worng planing !! i wonder if the israeli army (or chickens)with all this weapons aircrafts ...that the israeli army have can have this fighters , lol everything will finish in 2 days !! this war will never end , or at least, husbullah are not waiting for israel army to kill them but they come to die honorly but after killing maximum chickens possible ,
lol


Yes, Israel WILL win.

You must have missed that time when like 5 countries all attacked Israel and she beat the ****** out of them without the advantage of artillary, planes or big numbers of troops? Laughing

Israel could wipe the entire ME out if she wanted. Lucky for you she doesn't want that.
The Conspirator
S3nd K3ys wrote:
The Conspirator wrote:
I've looked at the whole thing from the beginning, I looked at it all objectively, you haven't. You have given excuses fro every thing Israel has done.
You support Israel cause of 9/11? You judge all Muslims cause of a few fundamentalist militants? Come on, thats ridiculous. Your not looking at it objectively. You just won't to see Muslims dead.
And I've never said 9/11 was an inside job. You would have to be crazy to say it was.


I support Israel because they're defending themselves against the same enemy I defend myself against. Terrorists.

Yes, I judge Muslims who will not denounce terrorism. I judge ANYONE who will not denounce terrorism.

Quote:
"It is a Jihad for the sake of God and will last until (our) religion prevails ... from Spain to Iraq," al-Zawahiri said. "We will attack everywhere."


Quote:
"My fellow Muslims, it is obvious that Arab and Islamic governments are not only impotent but also complicit ... and you are alone on the battlefield. Rely on God and fight your enemies ... make yourselves martyrs."


Quote:
Al Qaeda now views "all the world as a battlefield open in front of us."


Quote:
Al-Zawahiri said Muslims everywhere must rise up to attack "crusaders and Zionists" and support jihad (holy war)


Pay EXTRA CLOSE attention here, con, this is where you seem to get easily confused.

Quote:
"The war with Israel does not depend on cease-fires. ... It is a jihad (holy war) for the sake of God and will last until (our) religion prevails ... from Spain to Iraq," al-Zawahiri said. "We will attack everywhere."


Well allow me to retort...

Quote:


"We received yesterday at the Rome conference permission from the world ... to continue the operation, this war, until Hezbollah won't be located in Lebanon and until it is disarmed," he told Israel Army Radio. "Everyone understands that a victory for Hezbollah is a victory for world terror."


Oh, yeah. Did you get that 100$ donation I sent you so you could buy a subscription to Clue Magazine? Wink

Terrorism is subjective and abstract. One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter, one mans terrorist is another mans hero. would you call the dropping of atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki terrorist attacks? They could be perceived that way. Cause of terrorisms subjective and abstract nature, I don't call any act terrorist.
Have you forgotten? One of the prime reasons they hate us is is the US's support for Israel and Israel is the courses of the militant groups fighting it, the militant groups were created as a result of there actions and more will join then cause of this stupid war.
Don't judge the whole by the action of the few, to do that is the height of ignorants.
This war is not going to weaken Hebola, its only going to make it stronger, it make all those militant groups stronger and it makes Israel weaker.
tadssa
all what some peeps have , is what they heard in TV , or what they just mean you to know , you just admit it as it is 100 % true , where is thier brains ? they should remove thier blinders !! this is Scenario , use your brains to find out the truth !!
why do you all call huzbullah terrorist ? and not israeli army ? what do huzbullah do which israeli army don't? lol "Terrorist" is a word used so often and so loosely that it has lost a clear meaning !
be aware from using words so that discutions are more usefull !
Idea Shocked Shocked Shocked
horseatingweeds
You’re wrong Mr. Objective.

‘Terrorism’ is not subjective.

A freedom fighter fights for freedom. A terrorist fights for the opposite of freedom.

Terrorist tactics include malicious methods in order to terrorize a population by a non-military group. The glaring difference is as follows.

1. Terrorist can not be negotiated with. There is no structure or interface suitable. Your example of the US bombing Japan is erroneous. Japan refused to surrender; the US needed to take it before Russia got there, after the bombings Japan surrendered and the US rebuild Japan. Negotiation is just another weapon to terrorists.
2. Terror acts are meant to cause political change through fear. Spain is a good example. Out of fear Spain withdrew from Iraq. Also, when Israel blows up a house it is in order to neutralize an open threat, such as a missile promised to be launched at Israel.
3. Terrorist’s motivation is only to harm. They are not protecting anyone. Hezbullah’s excuse for firing rockets and kidnapping is for a bit a disputed soil? Now to protect themselves Israel is destroying Lebanon, as little as possible, to stop him. If he sincerely cared for Lebanon he would kill himself.
4. Terrorist never take mercy or use with strained methods, their actions are only limited by their imagination, money and number of recruits. Israel for example is warning people before they strike in order NOT to harm them whilst Hezzy purposely causes Lebanese to be killed by putting his people and equipment among them.

Now, to qualify to be a terrorist you must pass all four. Certainly, many people like to through the term around but that is just stupidity.
The Conspirator
It is subjective. If a man is fighting to bring freedom to his country but uses tactics that are considered terrorist, dose that make him a terrorist? If 1 country invades conjures another and people in that country use tactics that are considered terrorist, dose that make him a terrorist?
What you see as terrorist to another may not be. What you sited as being terrorist other will disagree with. For instance according to Wikipedea terrorism is "Terrorism refers to a strategy of using violence, or threat of violence targeted against non-combatants to generate fear, cause disruption, and ultimately, to bring about compliance with specific political, religious, ideological, and personal demands." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism but thats nit the only dicription. The Oxford English Dictionary defines terrorism as "a policy intended to strike with terror those against whom it is adopted; the employment of methods of intimidation; the fact of terrorising or condition of being terrorised." Webster's New International Dictionary defines terrorism as the "act of terrorizing, or state of being terrorized; specif.: a The system of the Reign of Terror. b A mode of governing, or of opposing government, by intimidation. c Any policy of intimidation. The American Heritage Dictionary defines terrorism as "The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definition_of_terrorism and theres more than that (read the Article).
Terrorism is indeed subjective. You have your opinion on what is terrorism and I have mine (the use of terror or fear to achieve a goal which would includes anything from school yard bullying to Hesbolla, Hamas and even Israel).
horseatingweeds
You certainly like crippling language with your specific-definition / rationalization routine. Look at things objectively The Conspirator. There is a stark difference.

Quote:
It is subjective. If a man is fighting to bring freedom to his country but uses tactics that are considered terrorist, dose that make him a terrorist?


No, this makes him a freedom fighter, he is fighting for freedom.

Quote:
If 1 country invades conjures another and people in that country use tactics that are considered terrorist, dose that make him a terrorist?


No, this makes them a resistance movement. They are resisting an overwhelming force.

My definition of a terrorist is the commonly held one outside of media hype and propaganda. It is a productive term used to describe a certain type of violence that needs to be dealt with a certain way.

Here you go Con, “that is a pile of Excrement”. Now take you dictionary and explain to me how subjective the word ‘Excrement’ is and that it can be used according to perspective, and that this fact has anything to do with a productive discussion on the matter.
The Conspirator
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definition_of_terrorism

Dictionarys, nations, governments and agency's can't even agree on what terrorism is, people can't agree on what terrorism is. that makes it subjective.
To you a man fighting for freedom who uses terrorist tactics is a freedom fighter, to another he is a terrorist. If there was a singular definition of terrorism that all (or most) dictionary's, nations, governments, agency's and people could agree on, than it would not be.
Shit is a relative term, not subjective.
nopaniers
I agree with Conspirator that who is terrorist is subjective. A Lebanese person who saw their country occupied by a foreign power may well not agree that Hezbollah are terrorists. On the other hand, an Israeli or an American would, since they see it from Israel's point of view. Regardless of the rights and wrongs, different people see it in different ways, so I would say that it's subjective.

I think a much better thing to say is: It is plain wrong to kill civilians. Israel is wrong when they target Lebanese cities and infastructure, and Hezbollah is wrong when they fire rockets at Israeli cities.
tadssa
S3nd K3ys wrote:
tadssa wrote:
do u belive that israel will win this war ??? , lol ,
you know more than 50 years fighting the poor Palestinian , and there still resistance shooting israel bombing her , how long do u think will take this new war she started ? eh?
i hate when people speak about things they don't know !!!
but i'm sure that once israel revange from arabic children women and old people ( cause she can't touch hizbullah )she will accept international intervention , lol to save her from the "100" freedom wild fighter ,
but no !! always worng planing !! i wonder if the israeli army (or chickens)with all this weapons aircrafts ...that the israeli army have can have this fighters , lol everything will finish in 2 days !! this war will never end , or at least, husbullah are not waiting for israel army to kill them but they come to die honorly but after killing maximum chickens possible ,
lol


Yes, Israel WILL win.

You must have missed that time when like 5 countries all attacked Israel and she beat the **** out of them without the advantage of artillary, planes or big numbers of troops? Laughing

Israel could wipe the entire ME out if she wanted. Lucky for you she doesn't want that.



they told you lies bro not true !! she want but she can't !! she can't either fight 100 one from huzbullah !! more than 50 years of war with palestinian and there still resictance shooting bombing her, when is she going to win?? eh?? lol , neva !! NEVA !!





S3nd K3ys wrote:
The Conspirator wrote:

Ethnicity's don't own land, people and governments do. People do not have certain rights to certain land just because they are of a certain ethnicity. Jewish people do not have any more rights to that land than Christens, Muslims or any one else of any religion or philosophy.
The people who owned that land and where kicked off by the foreigner who made Israel have the rights to that land, not the foreigner who invaded and stole it and them being Jewish dose not justify steeling the land of others.


Um...

Huh? Confused

Who kicked the jews off 3,000 years ago?



i can't get you ? how can you say that ????? wonderful !!
and look what are you doing : http://www.fromisraeltolebanon.info/ after 3,000 years !!!
i said b4 the 2 israelian chickens in huzbullah jail wasn't the cause of this war but hatered, and this land your talking about (you think it was yours ) not borded yet i think souria and iran Algerie Morocco also was your land ? what about Paris , roma , NY .....No?
horseatingweeds
no & Con

That noise you heard buzzing over your head was my point.

Yeah, and maybe I would disagree that someone who grows wheat is not a farmer but then I might agree that someone that raises fish is a farmer. “Farmer” is a subjective term. That’s productive!

Let me try one more time. Let’s take a word like ooooohhhhh ‘terrorist’. It is derogatory. It is descriptive. And like EVERY other word CAN be used SUBJECTIVELY. Now how should we use it? How is it used?

You propose that we use it as a literary and expletive term, having little or no meaning except for in the contents of an effort to conveying a single person’s perspective and emotion. That’s fine if we are jerking each other off with a bit of poetry. The trouble is we are discussing world news. So when you step out of a discussion and scoop up a pile of dictionary definitions in an effort to make your conclusion look more valid you are doing us all a disservice. Keep your eye on the whole discussion!

Again, incase you didn’t absorb it this time.

Bringing up definitions does not support your argument that a ‘terrorist’ is not a VERY specific and unique entity.

I’ll reword for good measure:

There is a very particular type of world threat that performs a very particular type of violence that is called a ‘terrorist, you can call it an egg if you want.

You seem to like this sort of thing so I’ll do a poem.

A terrorist is a terrorist.
A freedom fighter is a freedom fighter.
A rose is a rose.
A rock is a rock.
The Conspirator
You missed my point. What makes a terrorist a terrorist is subjective. Where one man, government or agency see a terrorist another will not. Until the majority of people agree on a single definition, terrorism will remain subjective.
You say a freedom fighter is a freedom fighter and not a terrorist but due to the subjective nature of the term "terrorism" that is subjective, there are many people and governments who would see a person that uses terrorist tactics as a terrorist no matter if he is fighting for freedom or something else. You have you're definition of what a terrorist is but like good, evil and art, its not a universal definition just as mine isn't.
horseatingweeds
Holly Sh*t Conspirator, are you just being annoying on purpose?????

I got your point way back when I reiterated it!

horseatingweeds wrote:
You propose that we use it as a literary and expletive term, having little or no meaning except for in the contents of an effort to conveying a single person’s perspective and emotion.


I understand. Your BIG point that is”” benefiting”” this discussion is that there are a lot of people that use the word ‘terrorist’ for all kinds of thing. Yeah the US president is a terrorist because he ‘terrorizes’ freedom fighters for trying to make the world free of infidels.

Now here is a challenge for you. WHAT WAS MY POINT?????

You still really don’t get it do you? I’ll try one more time then I swear I will never discus anything with you again unless you can reiterate it properly.

ANY word including TERRORIST is subjective. Meaning, it can be used subjectively. (Why does this conversation seem so familiar?)

“That dog is the mac with the hoes” = That man is very talented in courting the ladies

NOT that dog is associated with an Irish lineage and a gardening tool. (this is what your dic. would say)

There is an entity. Lets call it entity-X. Entity-X is a very unique entity in that is performs above activities 1, 2, 3, &4. Entities that perform 1, 2, 3, &4 require a unique counter.

Logic:

That which is entity-X performs 1, 2, 3, &4.
That which does not perform 1, 2, 3, &4 is not entity-X
Entity-X = terrorist
That which is terrorists performs 1, 2, 3, &4.
That which performs 1, 2, 3, &4 is terrorist
Terrorist require a unique counter

So, pertinent to THIS DISCUSION there is this entity that is unique that requires unique action. I call it terrorist. Call it monkey-spank if you want! Just propose it to the members so we don’t think you got lost.

tadsaa wrote:
they told you lies bro not true !! she want but she can't !! she can't either fight 100 one from huzbullah !! more than 50 years of war with palestinian and there still resictance shooting bombing her, when is she going to win?? eh?? lol , neva !! NEVA !!


I think S3 is referring to the 6 day war where Israel kicked the crap out of Egypt Syria Iran Iraq and who ever else really bad with few men and the same crappy 50’s armor their enemy had. Definitely not chickens, inspiring to any oppressed people.
The Conspirator
Quote:
You propose that we use it as a literary and expletive term, having little or no meaning except for in the contents of an effort to conveying a single person’s perspective and emotion.

I did not say that. I said terrorism is subjective. Your sayings its not but your wrong. For something not to be subjective is has to have a single definition that is excepted by the majority of people.
For an act to be considered terrorist it has to fit the definition of terrorism. The problem is there is no single definition of terrorism, there is no singular "1, 2, 3, and 4" thus terrorism is subjective.
horseatingweeds
Conspirator, OK you don’t understand. Perhaps you don’t want to. Perhaps you are unable. I don’t care anymore. If you are at all interested in how ignorant you are seeming, go back and read through again.

Until you figure things out I will consider your posts silly ramble.

Good by.
tadssa
S3nd K3ys said :
Yes, I judge Muslims who will not denounce terrorism. I judge ANYONE who will not denounce terrorism.

who told you that muslims don't denounce terrorism we are all against al qaaida any other terrorist org ,the problem is not between religions jwish or muslims or... , i'm muslim i live next door to jwish we have the same passport we share denouncing terrorism and many other relations we respect each point of view
we all hope this war in ME finish soon !



horseatingweeds wrote:

I think S3 is referring to the 6 day war where Israel kicked the crap out of Egypt Syria Iran Iraq and who ever else really bad with few men and the same crappy 50’s armor their enemy had. Definitely not chickens, inspiring to any oppressed people.



i think your problem is that you , S3 and many others are still living in the history , judging people now days about what happend in 3,000 years ago , referring to the past (or to some days in the past cause all your past wasn't that good )....
you're in 2006 where the hole world (CIA +FBI +KJB + idonnou who else......) couldn't find either 1 man (ben laden ) ,they say in afghanistan , sure you heard this Scénario b4!!
the history has teached us it's always too early to guess who will win in this war , be sure bro !!



horseatingweeds wrote:
Conspirator, OK you don’t understand. Perhaps you don’t want to. Perhaps you are unable. I don’t care anymore. If you are at all interested in how ignorant you are seeming, go back and read through again.

Until you figure things out I will consider your posts silly ramble.

Good by.



i think you we should ask Oxford, Wikimedia, Webster's New International Dictionary and The American Heritage Dictionary, to remove thier definitions and put there the 4 point you said must pass to qualify to be a terrorist , lol that's what will make you happy .
you shouldn't either try to explain to other cause you 1st need to understand !
The Conspirator
horseatingweeds wrote:
Conspirator, OK you don’t understand. Perhaps you don’t want to. Perhaps you are unable. I don’t care anymore. If you are at all interested in how ignorant you are seeming, go back and read through again.

Until you figure things out I will consider your posts silly ramble.

Good by.

I understand perfectly, you don't understand that there is no consensus on what parameters equal terrorism. You say 1, 2, 3, 4 equals terrorism but some one else could say 1, 3, 5, 7 equals terrorism another could say just 1 equals terrorism. That makes terrorism subjective and until there is a consigns terrorism will remain subjective.
You see terrorists as people who can't be negotiated with, who try to get political change through violence, who do nothing but harm and have no mercy but that is not a commonly excepted parameters of what makes a terrorist. That is your subjective opinion just as my opinion on what makes a terrorist a subjective opinion.
felisleo
israil is killing more and more.what do plants or schools have to do with hisbullah.israil is burning down the entire country and is willing to end hisbullah?? anyone who actually believes that is stupid.they are giving more people reason to join hisbullah sides.the blood of the innocent is on israili and usa hands.

you can t wipe out the whole middle east.you can t wipe out nations of middle east.sooner or later the rapist crusader will be kicked out and palestinia will be free from israil.

israil and america proove exactly why iran should have nuclear weapons.they both have soldiers on lands that do not belong to them.they both are killing people whose only fault is to live.they both are threatening poor countries.after all self defence is irans right too. Rolling Eyes

if usa didn t mess with middle east there would never be al-queida.if israil
let palestinia be free there would never be hisbullah.the world would be a more peaceful place...


also the arab countries being silent on the issue makes me sick..yeah arabs continue to be american slaves..
nopaniers
There's an excellent article on the BBC website which comparing (among other things) this conflict to 1982.

BBC wrote:
When Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982, the initial pretext - reflected in the codename given to the operation, Peace for Galilee - was to push PLO guns about 40km (25 miles) back from the border, beyond range of northern Israel. ...

But its increasing resentment against the continuing Israeli occupation provided fertile ground for Iran and Syria to encourage the formation of a vehicle that was to prove both deadly and effective in driving the Israelis out: Hezbollah, which did not exist before the invasion. ...

The MNF, led by the US and including French, Italian and British contingents, pulled out in 1983 when they found themselves embroiled in a militia war and taking casualties for no clear purpose. It took 17 bloody years and hundreds of casualties for the Israelis, who had fallen back on a broad border security zone, run by their local proxies the South Lebanon Army (SLA), to draw the same conclusion.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5222154.stm
tadssa
felisleo wrote:
israil is killing more and more.what do plants or schools have to do with hisbullah.israil is burning down the entire country and is willing to end hisbullah?? anyone who actually believes that is stupid.they are giving more people reason to join hisbullah sides.the blood of the innocent is on israili and usa hands.

you can t wipe out the whole middle east.you can t wipe out nations of middle east.sooner or later the rapist crusader will be kicked out and palestinia will be free from israil.

israil and america proove exactly why iran should have nuclear weapons.they both have soldiers on lands that do not belong to them.they both are killing people whose only fault is to live.they both are threatening poor countries.after all self defence is irans right too. Rolling Eyes

if usa didn t mess with middle east there would never be al-queida.if israil
let palestinia be free there would never be hisbullah.the world would be a more peaceful place...



thank you !!
it's 100 % true !! i agree with you i also can see that this war is leading ME to death ,
sure iran should have the nuclear arm ,she is conserned !! America say the new big ME !! iran already have brave fighters there still nuclear arm 2 more day all will end !! lol .
i don't know where these israeli and American leaders are leading the world ???
have you seen the Democratic iraq usa did build ? where is all her fake slegan ?? lol .
for real sadam is 1000 time better than today !! they don't either know what baghdad and beurut mean to all arabic people !!

America + israel always bad planings bad calculs , they tell lies to thier poor folks ! giving them green pictures about the black futur ! i feel sorry about them,all what they can see is the green TV scenario media mean them to see, i understand thier feeling ! just blind poor people
i'm sorry about every missil falls in israel and every one falls in lebanon !



felisleo wrote:

also the arab countries being silent on the issue makes me sick..yeah arabs continue to be american slaves..


i agree with you, but the arab leaders know what kind of people they are leading !! they are in bad situation !! they are just waiting !!
i hope they can act soon , and not waiting thier folks to do !
S3nd K3ys
felisleo wrote:
i
[b]if usa didn t mess with middle east
.


The USA has only been around for less than 400 years. Muslims have been doing this crap for thousands of years.

Quit blaming it on the USA, the USA stands for FREEDOM. Freedom to CHOOSE your religion. The USA stands for CIVIL RIGHTS.

At least your not as ignorant as our (now ignored because the level of ignornace passed way beyond ignorant and landed squarely in stupid) friend Mr. Conspirator.

Quote:
also the arab countries being silent on the issue makes me sick..yeah arabs continue to be american slaves.


This is what I'm saying, we all need to make our stand and choose sides. This isn't jsut about the Muslims and the Jews. It's about civilization.

Terrorists don't want civilization, they want to be able to rule by force and not be held accountable. They're barbarians with no respect for anyone who doesn't believe in their God and they'll strap bombs to their babies until the end of time to win.

We are told that there is a difference between extremist Islam and peaceloving normal Islam.
Judging by their behavior, Muslims are anti-West, anti-Democracy, anti-Christian, anti-Jewish, anti-Buddhist, and anti-Hindu. Muslims are involved in 25 of some 30 conflicts going on in the world: in Afghanistan, Algeria, Bangladesh, Bosnia, Congo, Cote d'Ivoire, Cyprus, East Timor, India, Indonesia (2 provinces), Kashmir, Kazakastan, Kosovo, Kurdistan, Macedonia, the Middle East, Nigeria, Pakistan, Philippines, Sudan, Russia-Chechnya, Tajikistan, Thailand, Uganda and Uzbekistan.
Doesn't this mean that extremist Islam is the norm and normal Islam is extremely rare?
tadssa
S3nd K3ys wrote:
felisleo wrote:
i
[b]if usa didn t mess with middle east
.


The USA has only been around for less than 400 years. Muslims have been doing this crap for thousands of years.

Quit blaming it on the USA, the USA stands for FREEDOM. Freedom to CHOOSE your religion. The USA stands for CIVIL RIGHTS.



sorry i ll continue blaming usa ! you're speaking about history once again
we all know the the history of usa , (wild west + violance +.....) she's caming in our days with the most extremist leader that aim to controle petrole in the world whatever was the price , and pretinding she stand for the peace she is missing it !!!!


S3nd K3ys wrote:

Quote:
also the arab countries being silent on the issue makes me sick..yeah arabs continue to be american slaves.


This is what I'm saying, we all need to make our stand and choose sides. This isn't jsut about the Muslims and the Jews. It's about civilization.

Terrorists don't want civilization, they want to be able to rule by force and not be held accountable. They're barbarians with no respect for anyone who doesn't believe in their God and they'll strap bombs to their babies until the end of time to win.

We are told that there is a difference between extremist Islam and peaceloving normal Islam.
Judging by their behavior, Muslims are anti-West, anti-Democracy, anti-Christian, anti-Jewish, anti-Buddhist, and anti-Hindu. Muslims are involved in 25 of some 30 conflicts going on in the world: in Afghanistan, Algeria, Bangladesh, Bosnia, Congo, Cote d'Ivoire, Cyprus, East Timor, India, Indonesia (2 provinces), Kashmir, Kazakastan, Kosovo, Kurdistan, Macedonia, the Middle East, Nigeria, Pakistan, Philippines, Sudan, Russia-Chechnya, Tajikistan, Thailand, Uganda and Uzbekistan.
Doesn't this mean that extremist Islam is the norm and normal Islam is extremely rare?


well i see , i said b4 , history prove that usa never go on war unless she push others to fight till they are all tired from war ! clear ! you have to know that in Afghanistan, Algeria, Bangladesh, Bosnia, Congo, Cote d'Ivoire, Cyprus, East Timor, India, Indonesia (2 provinces), Kashmir, Kazakastan, Kosovo, Kurdistan, Macedonia, the Middle East, Nigeria, Pakistan, Philippines, Sudan, Russia-Chechnya, Tajikistan, Thailand, Uganda and Uzbekistan , usa support one side she doesn't want peace !!
she want wares she want slave countries , she cause this conflicts as always !! as today she is pushing israel to wipe lebanon ....
do u know that taliban was supported by usa to terrorize Russia ? at that time benladen was free there with the talibane militia !! soon after that she wip taliban and folow benladen and al qaaida !! fanny ! she think to be very clever , but only in lebanon they undestand the game all sides support huzbullah , only few sides accepted the usa support ,but usa has understand that these sides can do any thing against huzbullah , after she has push israel to fight they have been planing for this war over years ,
the 2 military kidnapped by huzbullah wasn't the cause of war
this is the r8 reading of the reality !!! i always say don't belive TV 100% , make your brains work try to understand it's very clear
tadssa
nopaniers wrote:
There's an excellent article on the BBC website which comparing (among other things) this conflict to 1982.

BBC wrote:
When Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982, the initial pretext - reflected in the codename given to the operation, Peace for Galilee - was to push PLO guns about 40km (25 miles) back from the border, beyond range of northern Israel. ...

But its increasing resentment against the continuing Israeli occupation provided fertile ground for Iran and Syria to encourage the formation of a vehicle that was to prove both deadly and effective in driving the Israelis out: Hezbollah, which did not exist before the invasion. ...

The MNF, led by the US and including French, Italian and British contingents, pulled out in 1983 when they found themselves embroiled in a militia war and taking casualties for no clear purpose. It took 17 bloody years and hundreds of casualties for the Israelis, who had fallen back on a broad border security zone, run by their local proxies the South Lebanon Army (SLA), to draw the same conclusion.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5222154.stm




is good one at least !!
S3nd K3ys
tadssa wrote:
usa never go on war unless she push others to fight till they are all tired from war


Sounds like a pretty good war plan to me. Seems to have been effective, too, considering the US is the single strongest, richest country in the world right now. Wink

Quote:
as today she is pushing israel to wipe lebanon ....


Wrong. It's not Lebanon. We helped create a democracy in Lebanon, we don't want to see it destroyed. We are fighting (albeit via proxy) against terrorism. In this case, it's against hesbollah. Hesbollah has deep roots in Lebanon, and Lebanese gov't refuses to remove them (or cant), and Lebanese civilians are letting hesbollah use them as a shield and a cloak.

It's simple, don't support terrorists and you won't be in danger.

Quote:
do u know that taliban was supported by usa to terrorize Russia ? at that time benladen was free there with the talibane militia


Yes. I'm very well aware of the history of terrorists and the US and how the US often replaces very bad dictators with marginally bad ones. It's a "lesser of two evils" thing.
S3nd K3ys
tadssa wrote:
nopaniers wrote:
There's an excellent article on the BBC website which comparing (among other things) this conflict to 1982.

BBC wrote:
When Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982, the initial pretext - reflected in the codename given to the operation, Peace for Galilee - was to push PLO guns about 40km (25 miles) back from the border, beyond range of northern Israel. ...

But its increasing resentment against the continuing Israeli occupation provided fertile ground for Iran and Syria to encourage the formation of a vehicle that was to prove both deadly and effective in driving the Israelis out: Hezbollah, which did not exist before the invasion. ...

The MNF, led by the US and including French, Italian and British contingents, pulled out in 1983 when they found themselves embroiled in a militia war and taking casualties for no clear purpose. It took 17 bloody years and hundreds of casualties for the Israelis, who had fallen back on a broad border security zone, run by their local proxies the South Lebanon Army (SLA), to draw the same conclusion.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5222154.stm




is good one at least !!


Yeah, right. A good one. It was a response to the assassination attempt against Israel's ambassador to the United Kingdom, Shlomo Argov by Fatah - Revolutionary Council, and to artillery attacks launched by the Palestine Liberation Organization against populated areas in northern Israel.

Again you attempt to twist the truth and subject Israel to lies to promote your hate of Jews and hate of the freedom of religion and civil rights.

Tell the entire story. Stop lying.

For nearly every "action" taken by Israel, there is a reason. That reason is mostly self-defense.
FunFunkyFritz
S3nd K3ys wrote:
FunFunkyFritz wrote:
The Conspirator wrote:
...
Look at the targets there attacking, factory's that have little do do with the militants. Airports, bridges, rodes, ports, TV stations, damns and other targets that box in the civilian's, cut them off from the out side world and cut off there food supply. Why? Theres no strategic reason for it.

I think there is, they want to bring stoneage to Lebanon, just like they have already done to Gaza. Starving people are usually easier to subdue..
Yeah, LoL, that's why Israel is allowing humanitarian aid eh? That's why israel is warning people to get out of town eh? Laughing Laughing Laughing

Ahhh, sweet ignorance. *cough*denial*cough*

Ok, i deserved that. I should have known better than to post a one-liner with a chance of misinterpretation when Send is around. This is what i should have posted:

I think there is, they want to bring stone age to Lebanon by depriving people their lively hood, just like they have already done to Gaza.
Starving people who depend on humanitarian aid are probably less likely to actively support Hizbolla.
And if that does not work there is a chance the Israeli actions makes people move permanently from the border areas, thus making a buffer zone on the Lebanon side of the border.
S3nd K3ys
A picture is worth a thousand words. Wink

S3nd K3ys
FunFunkyFritz wrote:

I think there is, they want to bring stone age to Lebanon by depriving people their lively hood, just like they have already done to Gaza.
Starving people who depend on humanitarian aid are probably less likely to actively support Hizbolla.
And if that does not work there is a chance the Israeli actions makes people move permanently from the border areas, thus making a buffer zone on the Lebanon side of the border.[/b]


No, they're trying to remove terrorists from So Lebanon because the Lebanese government can't or wont, and the terrorists are there illegally, meaning the UN won't do it either.
The Conspirator
Quote:
The USA has only been around for less than 400 years. Muslims have been doing this crap for thousands of years.

Read a history book,while Europe was in the dark ages the Muslim would was the center of knowledge and intelligence, while christens force every one in any land they concurred to convert of die, many Muslim empires didn't force Christens and Jews to convert. When the crusaders when to the middle east, they raped and pillaged there way through, even committing cannibalism, when they tool Jerusalem's they killed every Muslim man woman and child they could find, when the Muslims, they let the crusaders they capered go.

Quote:
Quit blaming it on the USA

The US supports Israel, the US was one of the first nations to support Israel, all the shit going on in that region right now traces back to Israel.

Quote:
the USA stands for FREEDOM. Freedom to CHOOSE your religion. The USA stands for CIVIL RIGHTS.

Bullshit. Read a history book, slavery, segregation , racism. This country has one of the worse history's of civil rights. And despite all the progress we've made, this country is still not equal.
And if you haven't noticed, our freedoms are being eaten away little by little, all in the name of security. In 10 years, we may not even have freedom of speech.
freakinlame
Honestly, as a normal citizen, I have little knowledge on the Israel-Lebanon conflict. But, I do think that peace is better than war. Love better than hate. Prevent better than cure. But don't try to input any ideology if you do not know what is actually happening there. Unless you are ther of course all the rest that you hear from are from the media..So, think about it, would you prefer if a nation is condemned because of the leaders? would you like to see many hands involved in the matter?Or would you like to live in peace and harmony regardless of your religion, race, beliefs and skin colour? A human can only do as much, nothing more than that..what happens next?
tadssa
S3nd K3ys wrote:
tadssa wrote:
usa never go on war unless she push others to fight till they are all tired from war


Sounds like a pretty good war plan to me. Seems to have been effective, too, considering the US is the single strongest, richest country in the world right now. Wink


true i a gree , but this is not fair ,
1st - American folks are not that rich!! but the gov yes she is !!
2nd - we can't kill others to be rich
3rd - American folks don't want to that thier gov kill others just to still thier petrol
4th - that's increase resistance against usa politic5th -

S3nd K3ys wrote:

Quote:
as today she is pushing israel to wipe lebanon ....


Wrong. It's not Lebanon. We helped create a democracy in Lebanon, we don't want to see it destroyed.


no at all you're fraid from hizbollah , and you're not the us not you besiness to help , you're destroying lebanon (here i don't n
mean usa but the us )

S3nd K3ys wrote:


We are fighting (albeit via proxy) against terrorism. In this case, it's against hesbollah. Hesbollah has deep roots in Lebanon, and Lebanese gov't refuses to remove them (or cant), and Lebanese civilians are letting hesbollah use them as a shield and a cloak.


you're fighting against what you call terorrist !! and what we call freedom fighter !!
S3nd K3ys wrote:

It's simple, don't support terrorists and you won't be in danger.


well , ok be sure we don't support israel !! are we in danger ?? do best hide under yard you're in danger !!
S3nd K3ys wrote:

Quote:
do u know that taliban was supported by usa to terrorize Russia ? at that time benladen was free there with the talibane militia


Yes. I'm very well aware of the history of terrorists and the US and how the US often replaces very bad dictators with marginally bad ones. It's a "lesser of two evils" thing.


well bravo !!
i think one day will be your turn , lol


i respect any point of view but pleaaase !!!!
tadssa
freakinlame wrote:
Honestly, as a normal citizen, I have little knowledge on the Israel-Lebanon conflict. But, I do think that peace is better than war. Love better than hate. Prevent better than cure. But don't try to input any ideology if you do not know what is actually happening there. Unless you are ther of course all the rest that you hear from are from the media..So, think about it, would you prefer if a nation is condemned because of the leaders? would you like to see many hands involved in the matter?Or would you like to live in peace and harmony regardless of your religion, race, beliefs and skin colour? A human can only do as much, nothing more than that..what happens next?



thank you , i like you
S3nd K3ys
tadssa wrote:


1st - American folks are not that rich!! but the gov yes she is !!
2nd - we can't kill others to be rich
3rd - American folks don't want to that thier gov kill others just to still thier petrol
4th - that's increase resistance against usa politic5th -

1) I never said "american folks" I said "country". Do try to keep up.
2) We can, but that doesn't make it right. But "To the victor go the spoils"
3) In the highly unlikely event we did go there to take the oil, I would like to see the fruits of that action. But considering gas prices continue to climb, that's not the case. But if you want to beleive that, go right ahead if it makes you feel better about yourself and your 'cause'.
4) That's Ok. We're strong and we'll get thru this. Just like we got thru it in the past.

Quote:

you're fighting against what you call terorrist !! and what we call freedom fighter !!


If your version of a 'freedom fighter' routinely straps bombs to himself (and/or his children) and blows himself up inside a shopping center, school, church or other area with absolutely NO MILITARY VALUE and continually targets civilians, especially women and children, then by all means, call them freedom fighters. But be careful of the 'freedom' they're fighting for. It's not YOUR freedom they're worried about. It's YOUR freedom they're going to take.



BTW, when will Islam wake up and join the 21st century? Terrorism went out with the Crusades. Rolling Eyes
horseatingweeds
The Conspirator wrote:
Quote:
The USA has only been around for less than 400 years. Muslims have been doing this crap for thousands of years.

Read a history book,while Europe was in the dark ages the Muslim would was the center of knowledge and intelligence, while christens force every one in any land they concurred to convert of die, many Muslim empires didn't force Christens and Jews to convert. When the crusaders when to the middle east, they raped and pillaged there way through, even committing cannibalism, when they tool Jerusalem's they killed every Muslim man woman and child they could find, when the Muslims, they let the crusaders they capered go.

Quote:
Quit blaming it on the USA

The US supports Israel, the US was one of the first nations to support Israel, all the **** going on in that region right now traces back to Israel.

Quote:
the USA stands for FREEDOM. Freedom to CHOOSE your religion. The USA stands for CIVIL RIGHTS.

Bullshit. Read a history book, slavery, segregation , racism. This country has one of the worse history's of civil rights. And despite all the progress we've made, this country is still not equal.
And if you haven't noticed, our freedoms are being eaten away little by little, all in the name of security. In 10 years, we may not even have freedom of speech.


You read a history book you blithering child and stop quoting the latest movie. All of what you just said makes me want to explain its happening but your simply not worth it. I know you’ll just come back with, “slavery is a subjective term”, or ‘wiki: civil, wiki: rights.

Don’t participate if your just going to through up chaff and clog our forum!
S3nd K3ys
I only saw this because horse quoted it. (I stopped reading Con's drivel. He's way too ignorant and in-coherant.)

The Conspirator wrote:

Read a history book,while Europe was in the dark ages the Muslim would was the center of knowledge and intelligence


It would also seem that the Muslims got stuck in the dark ages. They seem to think it's still ok to murder civilians in the name of religion.
felisleo
S3nd K3ys wrote:
felisleo wrote:
i
[b]if usa didn t mess with middle east
.


The USA has only been around for less than 400 years. Muslims have been doing this crap for thousands of years.


What thousands of years...islam exists for 1.5 thousand years which doesn t make a thousand even plural.
muslims do not consist of one nation .every nation has its own conflicts.so stop saying muslims did this muslims did that crap.give names.with this logic christians killed a lot more.you killed 2 mil jews for starters.you killed algerians bosnians vietnamese japanese arabs africans chinese russians etc etc...

S3nd K3ys wrote:

Quit blaming it on the USA, the USA stands for FREEDOM. Freedom to CHOOSE your religion. The USA stands for CIVIL RIGHTS.


yeah ...in lebanon it is free to choose your religion.so it is in iran ,egypt,
algeria ,etc..stop lying
USA stands for itself only..when it wants something from a country and if it is relatively strong one it tries to divide it first.does aids to one politic aim and watches it to fall apart..if that fails it tries to pressure it with so called worldwide organisations.if that fails it pays another country to attack it.(like it did in iran -iraq war.gave saddam missiles, money and so on..)if the country is out of power it than uses its soldiers...


S3nd K3ys wrote:

We are told that there is a difference between extremist Islam and peaceloving normal Islam.
Judging by their behavior, Muslims are anti-West, anti-Democracy, anti-Christian, anti-Jewish, anti-Buddhist, and anti-Hindu. Muslims are involved in 25 of some 30 conflicts going on in the world: in Afghanistan, Algeria, Bangladesh, Bosnia, Congo, Cote d'Ivoire, Cyprus, East Timor, India, Indonesia (2 provinces), Kashmir, Kazakastan, Kosovo, Kurdistan, Macedonia, the Middle East, Nigeria, Pakistan, Philippines, Sudan, Russia-Chechnya, Tajikistan, Thailand, Uganda and Uzbekistan.
Doesn't this mean that extremist Islam is the norm and normal Islam is extremely rare?



lets see...as much as i know ..again with your stupid logic;
afghanistan: us supported talibans against russia.they gained freedom but
russians (christians) didn t leave a single working thing in the country.the poor afghans had nothing except rocks and sand.so taliban took over the country ..and years later they got bombed by americans (christians)

algeria: the civilized french (christians civilized ones) took over the the country used all its natual resources and when algerians wanted freedom it killed one and half million algerians..

bosnia: serbians (christians) tried to genocide bosnians.did alot of massacres..raped children..cut peoples heads off....

cyprus:the greeks(christian) tried to genocide the turks.turkish army prevented them from killing...

india:british invased the country.(christians)before gaining freedom they killed alot..

kosova: serbians (christians again)

congo:it was a colony of belgium(christian).the belgians killed the ones that wanted freedom..

middle east:americans get out ..you are wanted there..israil..let palestinia be free..and stay inside your borders..

nigeria:the army was supported by cia(christian intellince).army killed alot of people.the militans wanted to take over the country..same old african story..

russia-chechenya:chechens are fighting for freedom over a hundred years with russians (christians )

as for the rest the countries i don t much about.but it is fact that in many of them russians , americans ,british are in some way involved..

israil has right to exist there but not on the blood of arab children...
S3nd K3ys
You wanna talk about who's killing who?? Ok, lets. You might want to have a seat, though...

More people are killed by Islamists each year than in all 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition combined. (http://www.crisismagazine.com/october2003/madden.htm)

Islamic terrorists murder more people every day than the Ku Klux Klan has in the last 50 years. (http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/shipp/lynchingyear.html)

More civilians were killed by Muslim extremists in two hours on September 11th than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland. (http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/violence/death95w.htm)

19 Muslim hijackers killed more innocents in two hours on September 11th than the number of American criminals put to death in the last 65 years. (http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/ESPYdate.pdf)

And as for history, perhaps you should take a closer look at just how far back islamic terrorism goes...

Islam-Watch.org wrote:
7th Century

After Prophet Muhammad’s emigration from Mecca to Medina in 622, the exiling and extermination of 3 major Jewish tribes of Medina by 628, has been described above. In 630, Muhammad marched into Mecca, mercilessly captured, destroyed the most sacred pagan temple of Ka’ba and established the Islamic rule there. The pagan inhabitants were given a choice between death and Islam. To save lives, the pagans had no choice but to accept Islam. On the same day, Khalid ibn Walid’s massacre of the entire Jezima tribe for not accepting Islam has already been discussed. Khalid ibn Walid, upon command of Caliph Abu Bakr, launched the blood-letting wars of the apostasy (Ridda) to submit those, who deserted Islam immediately after Muhammad’s death, back to the faith. The utter barbarity of Khalid Ibn Walid against the defeated the Zoroastrian Persians at the Battle of Olayis in Southern Iraq in May 633, whereby he created what is famously called the River of Death has been discussed before.

After completing extermination/exiling the Jews of Medina in 628, Muhammad launched a campaign against the wealthy and prosperous Jewish community of Khaybar. He ordered his charges to destroy all the Jewish temples as they came across. Having defeated the community, he tortured the chief of tribe Kinana by setting fire on his chest to find out the whereabouts of his treasures. After extracting the location of the ensconced treasure, Kinana was beheaded, the treasures were looted, and Kinana’s wife Safiyah rendered as his share of the captive to be reduced to his sex-slave. He married and took her to bed on the same night her husband’s dead body awaited burial on the next day. Incidentally, Safiyah’s father belonged to the Banu Quraiza tribe of Medina whom Muhammad had beheaded earlier.

In the Muslim campaign of 634, the entire region between Gaza and Caesarea was devastated and four thousand peasants, comprising of Christians, Jews and Samaritans, who were simply defending their lands, were massacred. In 637, the Victorian Muslim army’s march into Jerusalem, with Caliph Omar at the lead, and the accompanying destruction of the synagogues and burning of the churches, desecration of the Crosses and setting in the Dhimmi laws of submission to the Jews and Christians of the Holy Land has already been mentioned. In the expeditions against Mesopotamia between 635 and 643, monasteries were sacked, the monks slaughtered and Monophysite Arabs executed or forced to convert. In Elam, all the people were put to the sword and at Susa all the dignitaries suffered the same fate.

Details of conquest of Egypt starting with the capture of Alexandria by Amr Ibn Al-As in 641 comes from the “Chronicle of John” – the Bishop of Nikiu, written between 693 and 700 CE. As Amr advanced into Egypt, he captured the city of Behnesa near Fayum, and exterminated the inhabitants. Nobody was spared: surrendered or captured, Old or Young or Women. Fayum and Aboit suffered the same fate. At Nikiu, the entire population was put to the sword. The Arabs took the inhabitants to captivity. In Armenia, the entire population of Euchaita was wiped out. Seventh century Armenian chronicles recount how the Arabs decimated the population of Assyria and forced a number of inhabitants to accept Islam and then wrought havoc in the districts of Daron, southwest of Lake Van. In 642, it was the turn to town Dvin to suffer. In 643, the Arabs came back with “extermination, ruin and slavery”.

It was the same ghastly spectacle in North Africa, Tripoli was pillaged in 643; Carthrage was razed to the ground and most of its inhabitants were slaughtered. Michael, the Syrian describes how the first Omayyad Caliph Muawiya, who took power in 661, sacked and pillaged Cyprus and then established his domination by a “great massacre”. In the capture of Istakhar (Persia), 40,000 Iranians were slaughtered. Indeed, Anatolia, Mesopotamia, Syria, Iraq, Iran and wherever Muslims have marched, were presented with the same spectacle.

8th Century

In 712, Governor of Iraq, Hajjaj, ordered the conquest of Sind under the commandership of his nephew, Muhammad bin Kasim. He was instructed to “bring destruction on the unbelievers… [and] to invite and induce the infidels to accept the true creed, and belief in the unity of God… and whoever does not submit to Islam, treat him harshly, and cause injury to him till he submits.” According to Al-Biladuri, after the capturing the port of Debal, the Muslim army slaughtered the inhabitants over three days and the priests of the temples were massacred.

After the initial surge of cruelty, Kasim became more tolerant and allowed the infidels to continue their profession and religious practice. Learning about this sympathetic treatment, a furious Hajjaj sent letter condemning Kasim’s method of pardoning the infidels. It read, “… The great god says in the Koran [47:7]: “O True believers, when you encounter the unbelievers, strike off their heads.” The above command of the Great God is a great command and must be respected…. Henceforth, grant pardon to no one of the enemy and spare none of them..” Kasim quickly obliged to the divinely ordained command and on his capture of Brahmanabad, he invited the infidel idol-worshipers to accept Islam. On latter’s refusal, he ordered all adult males be beheaded with swords and their women and the children were captured as slaves. Eight thousands, some say 26,000, men were put to the sword. One-fifth of the captured slaves (women and children), which amounted to 20,000, amongst whom, were the daughters of Sind Chiefs along with King Dahir’s severed head, were sent to Hajjaj as the share of the states and the remainder were distributed amongst the soldiers. [Chachanama, Muhammad al-Kufi, trs Kalichbeg, I, 155; Shashi R Sharma, Caliphs and Sultans, p. 95]. The stream of captured slaves continued to flow from India to Baghdad ever since Kassim captured Sind and Hajjaj alone is said to have forwarded 60,000 slaves from India (~1/5 of total) to the caliph Walid I (705-715 CE). [Chachnama, I, 154]

In 704-705, Caliph Walid I gathered together the nobles of Armenia in the Church of St. Gregory and in the Church of Xram on the Araxis and burned them alive. The rest were crucified and their women and children were captured as slaves. The worse happened to the Armenians between 852 and 855. Over in Egypt, in 722, the surveyor Usama b. Zaid, attacked convents and churches but Caliph Hisham later asked him to leave the Christians alone. Caliph Marwan (ruled 744-750) looted and destroyed many monasteries in Egypt while fleeing the Abbasid army. In the sacking of Euphesus in 781, 7,000 Greeks were taken captives were deported en masse.

9th century

In 853, Abbassid Caliph Mutawakil ordered all new churches to be destroyed. In 884, the convent of Kalilshu in Baghdad was destroyed. Caliph al-Mutasim, known as the Islamic hero, was a great wager of holy wars against the Christians and heretics. After the capture and pillage of Amorium in 838, there were so many captive slaves that Caliph al-Mutasim ordered them to be auctioned in batches of five and ten. During the rule of caliph al-Mamun – considered the most just Muslim ruler and harbinger of the so-called “golden age of Islam” – the pagans of Harran had to choose between Islam and death.

Ruined by the burden of imposition of Jizyah tax, the Coptic Christians of Lower Egypt revolted in 832. This revolt was ruthlessly suppressed by the Muslim rulers in which Christian villages, vineyards, gardens and Churches were burned. There were mass slaughter and those spared were deported.

10th century

In 924, the Church and convent of Mary in Damascus was plundered and burned and other churches destroyed. Further destruction occurred in Ramleh, Ascalon, Tinnis, and Egypt during the invasion of Asad ud Din Shirkuh. In the capture and sacking of Thessalonica in 903 CE, 22,000 Christian captives were divided amongst the Arab chieftains or sold into slavery. [Ibn Warraq,

There were massacres of the Spanish Christians in and around Seville. Al-Hakim biamr Illah gave orders that the Churches of his dominions should be destroyed. A Muslim historian records that over 30,000 churches built by the Greeks in Egypt, Syria and elsewhere were destroyed, their contents seized and sold in the markets and lands confiscated. [Tritton AS, The Caliphs and their non-Muslim Subjects. London, 1970, p. 54].

In Iran, the Zoroastrians faced frequent forced conversion, pressure to do so and persecution which lead to riots in Shiraz in 979. To escape persecution, they immigrated to India and live there even today as a respected community.

11th century

Six thousand Jews were massacred in Fez of Morocco in 1033. Hundreds of Jews were killed between 1010 and 1013 near Cordoba and other parts of Muslim Spain and an entire Jewish community of 4000 in Grenada was annihilated in 1066. Fatimid caliph Hakim’s jealous persecution of non-Muslims and Church demolition resulted in the destruction of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem in 1009. He also banned the pilgrimage to the Holy Land. Both events acted as the major causes that ignited the Crusades.

In Kairoun (Tunisia), the Jews were persecuted and sent to exile in 1016, who later returned, only to be expelled again. In Tunis, they were forced to convert or leave. During subsequent decades, there were fierce anti-Jewish persecutions throughout Tunisia.

In 1064, the Seljuk Sultan, Alp Arslan, devastated Georgia and Armenia. Those, whom he did not take captive, were executed. [Ibn Warraq, pp. 218-238]

Eleventh century also saw the barbaric assault of Sultan Mahmud of Ghazni on Hindustan starting in 1000 CE. He launched 17 plundering, looting and slave-taking expeditions to India. Abu Nasr Muhammad Utbi, Sultan Mahmud’s secretary, gloats in his official chronicle that after attacking Waihind in November 1001 CE, Mahmud’s army slaughtered 15,000 fighting men in “splendid action” before capturing 500,000 men and women as slaves. In Mahmud’s attack of Ninduna and Panjab in 1014, “slaves were so plentiful that they became very cheap and the men of respectability in their native land were degraded by becoming slaves of ordinary shop-keepers (in Ghazni)”. The extent of barbarity of Sultan Mahmud was vividly described by contemporary Muslim historians. In the attack on Thanesar, “the blood of the infidels flowed so copiously the stream was discolored and the people were unable to drink it”. Similarly in the slaughter of Sirsawa near Saharanpur, “the Musalmans paid no regard to the booty till they had satiated themselves with the slaughter of infidels.” [Utbi, Tehrik-i-Yamini, ED, Vol II, pp 41-42, 49-50]. When Mahmud learned that the famous Hindu temple at Somnath housed a monolith brought of the temple of Ka’ba that was destroyed by the Prophet of Islam in 630 CE, out of jealous piety, he rushed to destroy the Somnath temple. Hindus in great numbered assembled to protect their sacred temple and offered Mahmud great booty, which he ignored and according to Ibn Asir [Kamil-ut-Tawarikh], he massacred 50,000 Hindus guarding temple and destroyed it.

12th Century

In the 12th century, the Almohads of North Africa spread terror wherever they went. The Jews in Yemen were given choice of death or conversion to Islam in 1165. Similar choice was given to the Jews of Aden in 1198. According to Stillman [The Jews of Arab Lands], there were forced conversions of Jews under the Almohad caliphs, al-Mumin (d 1165), Abu Yakub (d 1184) and al-Mansur (d 1199). The Christians of Grenada were deported to Morocco by the Almoravids rulers in 1126.

In the Indian front, after the scourge of Mahmud Ghazni, there was a relative calm until Turk Ghaurid Sultan Muhammad Ghauri started his attacks beginning in 1175. When he became successful in 1192 to defeat Prithviraj Chauhan, he launched a scourge of conquest of Sirsuti, Samana, Khuhram and Hansi with ruthless slaughter and a general destruction of temples and their replacement with mosques. Similar events followed in Ajmer and Delhi later on [KS Lal, Theory and Practice of Muslim State in India, p. 21].

Muhammad Ghauri’s lieutenant Qutbuddin Aibak, succeeded him to become the first Muslim Sultan in India. He dispatched Ikhtiyaruddin Bakhtiyar Khalji to the East and himself concentrated in Hindustan proper. He captured Kol (modern Aligarh) in 1194. There “those of the garrison who were wise and cute were converted to Islam, but those who stood by their ancient faith were slain with the sword.” [Hasan Nizami, Taj-ul-Maasir, E.D., H, 222]

In 1195 when Raja Bhim was attacked by Aibak, he captured 20,000 slaves.

13th Century

In Aibak’s attack of Kalinjar in 1202, 50,000 slaves were captured. “The temples were converted into mosques,” writes Hasan Nizami, “and the voices of the summoners to prayer ascended to the highest heavens, and the very name of idolatry was annihilated.” Muhammad Farishtah specifically mentions that during the capture of Kalinjar “fifty thousand kaniz va ghulam, having suffered slavery, were rewarded with the honor of Islam” – which meant that enslaved captives were forced into conversion to Islam and conversion accelerated the growth of Muslim population in India.

During Aibak’s rule of 20 Lunar years, he captured Hansi, Meerut, Delhi, Ranthambhor and Kol, which accompanied similar massacres, destruction and slave-taking. When Sultan Muizzuddin personally mounted a campaign against Hindustan, Aibak proceeded as far as Peshawar to meet him, and the two together attacked the Khokhar (Hindu) stronghold in the Koh-i-Jud or the Salt Range. The Hindus (Khokhars) fled to the highest in the mountains. They were pursued. Those that escaped the sword fled to the dense depth of the jungle; others were massacred or taken captive. The result was a great plunder and many captives sold as slaves. According to Farishtah 300 to 400 hundred thousand Khokhars were converted to Islam by Muizzuddin.

Under Aibak most of Hindustan from Delhi to Gujarat, Lakhnauti to Lahore and Bihar to Bengal were brought under the sway of the Turks. In every attack great many people were killed and large number of women and children were captured as slaves. In 1202 CE, Ikhtiyaruddin Bakhtiyar Khalji marched into Bihar and attacked the University centers at Nalanda, Vikramshila and Uddandpur. The Buddhist monks and Brahmans, identified by shaved head, taken as idolaters, were massacred and the common people were captured and enslaved. Ibn Asir says that Qutbuddin Aibak made ‘war against the provinces of Hind. He killed many, and returned with prisoners and booty.” In Banaras, according to the same author, “the slaughter of the Hindus was immense; none was spared except women and children”. Fakhr-i-Mudabbir informs us that as a result of the Turkish achievements under Muizzuddin and Aibak, even poor (Muslim) householder became owner of numerous slaves.”

Following Aibak, Sultan Iltutmish, (rule 1210-1236), he continued with his war against the infidels and revolting territories including Ranthambhor (1226), Mandor (near Jodhpur), Gwalior and Ujjan (1234-35). According to contemporary chroniclers Minhaj Shiraj and Muhammad Farishtah, every campaign lead to general massacres of those who resisted and the women and children were taken captives and assets of the infidels were looted.

Minhaj Siraj writes that Ulugh Khan Balban’s “taking of captives and his capture of the dependents of the great Ranas cannot be recounted”. Talking of his war in Avadh against Trailokyavarman of the Chandela dynasty (Dalaki va Malaki of Minhaj), the chronicler says that “All the infidels’ wives, sons and dependents… and children… fell into the hands of the victors.” In 1253, in his campaign against Ranthambhor also, Balban enslaved many people. In 1259, in an attack on Haryana, many women and children were enslaved. Twice Balban led expeditions against Kampil, Patiali, and Bhojpur, and in the process enslaved a large number of women and children. In Katehar he ordered a general massacre of the male population of over eight years of age and carried away women and children. In 1260 CE, Ulugh Khan Balban marched with a large force on a campaign in the region of Ranthambhor, Mewat and Siwalik. He made a proclamation that a soldier who brought a live captive would be rewarded with two silver tankahs and one who brought the head of a dead one would get one silver tankah. Soon 300-400 living and dead were brought to his presence everyday.

Like Balban, other commanders of Iltutmish, or the “Shamsia Maliks of Hind” were marching up and down the Hindustan, raiding towns and villages and enslaving people. This was the situation prevailing from Lakhnauti to Lahore and from Ajmer to Ujjain. The Hindus used to reclaim their lands after the Muslim invaders had passed through them with fire and sword, and Turkish armies used to repeat their attacks to regain control of the cities so lost. But the captives once taken became slaves and then Musalmans for ever. The exact figures of such slaves have not been mentioned and therefore cannot be computed. All that is known is that they were captured in droves.

After the Iltutmish Sultans, war against the Hindu infidels and slave-taking received further momentum under the Khaljis. Sultan Jalaluddin Khalji (1290-1296) launched ruthless attacks against Hindus in Katehar, Ranthambhor, Malwa, and Gwalior. According to Amir Khasrau [Miftah-ul-Fatuh], he sacked temples, took booty and captured slaves making a “Hell of Paradise”.

Next Sultan Alauddin Khalji, a great war maker, sent a large army to Gujarat in 1299 in which all the major towns were sacked, temples destroyed, wealth looted and large number of slaves of both sexes captured [Khwaja AM Isami, Futu-us-Salatin, p. 243 ; Ziauddin Barani, Tarikh-i-Firoz Shahi, pp. 251-52].

Away from the Indian front, the Christians of Damascus were killed or sold into slavery and their Churches were burned down. Sir Steven Runciman records Sultan Baibars promised the safety of the garrison of Safed if they surrendered to the Muslims. When they surrendered, the Muslims fell upon the population and massacred them. At the capture of Antioch by the Muslims, “Even the Muslim Chroniclers were shocked by the carnage that followed”, says Runciman. The Jews of Marrakesh were massacred in 1232. Following this, the Jews of Morocco were persecuted, forced to convert or leave. The Jews of Tabriz were obliged to convert in 1291 CE [Ibn Warraq; p. 227]

14th Century

The riots of 1321 in Cairo, in which several churches were destroyed, which in turn, set on destruction of churches throughout Egypt resulting in desecration of more than 50 churches. The Jews of Tabriz were again made to convert to Islam in 1318 CE and those of Baghdad in 1333 and 1344.

Late 14th and the early 15th centuries witnessed the horrible barbarity of Amir Tamur (aka, Tamurlane). Information about Timur comes mainly from “Zafer Nama” written during early 15th century and his own diary, Mulfuzat-i-Timuri, which are full of Koranic references in justification of his invasions, wars and mass murdered and destructions. He set out on his campaign in 1399 against India solely because the Muslim rulers were too lenient towards the idolater Hindu subjects. By the time, he reached Delhi; he had gathered around 100,000 pagan captives. A few thousands artisans and clever mechanics, including builders and stone masons, were taken back to Samarkhand while the rest were massacred in a single day [Mulfuzat-i-Timuri, trs ED, III, 447]. He built victory pillars with the severed heads of the infidels. On his way out of India, he pillaged Miraj, pulled down the monuments and flayed the Hindu inhabitants alive. [Why I am Not a Muslim, ibn Warraq, p. 234-235].

In the Indian front, Sultan Allauddin Khaliji (1296-1316) continued his terrorizing massacre, slave-taking and looting mission in the early 14th century, which made him the greatest rulers of the so-called Sultanate period (c 1200-1500 CE). In the sack of reconstituted Somnath temple a second, Wassaf recounts that the Muslim army captured 20,000 women and children as salves. [Wassaf, Bk IV, p. 448]. In 1301 Ranthambhor was attacked and in 1303, Chittor. In the Chittor attack 30,000 people were massacred in cold blood [Khazain, Habib trs p 49], and women and children were taken captives. Similar things happened in the attack of Malwa, Sevana and Jalor (1305-1311). According to Shams Shiraj Afif in the days of the Khaljis, “the Turks, whenever they please, can sieze, buy or sell any Hindu.” [Nuh Sephr, trs, in ED III, 561]. No wonder that 50,000 slave boys were engaged in his personal services and 70,000 slaves worked continuously in his buildings. Ziauddin Barani describes the continuous arrival of batches of slaves in the markets of Delhi and elsewhere.

Following the Khaljis, the Tughlaqs ascended to the Sultanate and they outstripped the notorious Khaljis in making wars against the Hindus and enslaving them. Shihabuddin Ahmed Abbas writes of Muhammad Tughtaq, “The Sultan never ceases to show the greatest zeal in making war upon the infidels… Everyday, thousands of slaves are sold at a very slow price, so great is the number of prisoners”. [Masalik-ul-Absar, E.D. III, 580]. He subjugated as far as Dwarsamudra, Malabar, Kampil, Warangal, Lakhnauti, Stagaon, Sonargaon, Nagarkat and Sambhal amongst the prominent places. [Qaraunab Turks, 96, 126, 129-30, 173]. He also ruthlessly put down 16 major rebellions. In each campaign, after defeat and massacre of the opponent, slaves were captured with gusto. The famous Muslim traveler Ibn Battutah testifies that in the defeat of Halajun rebellion (of Lahore), the capture of the women of the rebels were sent to the far-off Gwalior fort whom Battutah had seen there. [Battutah, p. 123]. The Tughlaqs would capture the Hindu slaves round the years, convert them to Muslims and on the two Eid-days, he will marry them off according to the Islamic tradition. [Battutah, p. 63].

Firoz Tughlaq, who ascended to the throne in 1351, outstripped his father and grandfather so much so that by all kind of methods and means, he acquired 180,000 of them. Contemporary Shams Shiraj Afif further testifies that during Firoz Tughlaq “Slaves became too numerous” and that the institution took root in every centre of the country. [Afif, pp. 267-273]. Firoz Tughloq was known to be relatively kind-hearted of the Sultans and yet according to Afif he killed 180,000 Bengalis in his expedition in Bengal and had erected a Tower of skulls [Lal, p. 73].

15th Century

Amir Timur’s barbarism continued in the 15th century. In 1400, Timur devastated the country in and around Tifflis. In 1403, he returned to Tifflis to devastate the country again and destroyed the 700 large villages and minor towns, massacred the inhabitant and razed the Churches to the ground. Amir Timur thoroughly and systematically destroyed the Christians and as a result, the Nestorians and Jacobites of Mesopotamia have never recovered. At Sivas, 4,000 Christians were buried alive; at Tus, there were 10,000 victims. Historians estimate the number of dead at Saray to be 100,000; at Baghdad 90,000 and at Isfahan 70,000 [Why I am Not a Muslim, Ibn Warraq, pp. 234-235].

Over in Constantinople, Sultan Mehemet unleashed utter barbarism. When Constantinople fell to the Muslim army, the Sultan allowed his soldiers to massacre the population for three days. They poured into the city and slew every men, women and children they met in the streets [Ruchimen, The Fall of Constantinople, 1453, p. 145].

16th Century:

The Muslim Sultanate of India became divided into a few largely independent territories under different Muslim rulers during much of the 15th century, although the condition of the Hindus never changed. War against the Hindu community continued along with capture of slaves for selling. Then came Zahiruddin Muhammad Babur, a descendent of the barbaric Amir Timur, who defeated the fanatic Sikandar Lodi in 1526 and instituted the Mogul rule (1525 – 1707) in India. Babur, an orthodox Muslim, continued the Jihadi wars against the Hindu dominated regions of India. He continued with the destruction of the Hindu temples, the prominent example is the much controversial Babri Mosque in Ayodhya. Babur’s determination to exterminate the vestiges of Hindu idolatry was explicitly narrated in his own diary before battle against Rana Sanga. Babur wrote in Jihadi zeal, “I made public the resolution to abstain from wine. My servants… dashed upon the earth, the flagons and the cups. They dashed them into pieces as God willing, soon will be dashed, the Gods of the idolaters” [Babur Nama, Vol II, p. 554-5]. Babur and his soldiers destroyed Hindu temples in many parts of the country. [Babur Nama, Vol II, p. 340]. After winning the War against Rana Sangha, Babur ordered the set-up of a Tower of slaughtered pagan heads as a trophy for the victory. Similar tower of dead pagan heads was created after the victory at Chanderi against Medini Rai [Baburnama, pp. 483-84, 596]

However, the misery and persecution of Hindu and other non-Muslims eased up a little bit after emperor Akbar came to the throne in 1656, who abolished discrimination, including Jizya, against the Hindus despite severe displeasure and protests from the Ulema and Muslims in general. However, persecution against the Hindus continued in various forms, especially his extreme eagerness and success in capturing the lands under the non-Muslim control. In the attack of Rana Pratap Singh in Rajastan, when the news of defeat of the Rajputs reached the palace, a few hundred noble women set fire on themselves to commit Jauher, in order to avoid being captured at the hands of Akbar’s lustful soldiers. Akbar accumulated a mind-boggling 5,000 women in his harem through various means.

17th Century

The Jews of Yemen were forced to choose between death and conversion in 1678. In 1617 and 1622, the Jews of Persia were declared apostates and suffered a wave of forced conversion and persecution. During the reign of Shah Abbas II (1642-1666), all the Jews of Persia were forced to convert, between 1653 and 1666. Taverniar, the 17th century French traveler, records as to how in Anatolia, “Everyday there were numerous Greeks who are forced to become Turks”.

Over in Persia, the persecution of the Zoroastrians got worse in the 17th century. Persecutions included levying extra hefty taxes, frequent looting of their homes and properties, forcing them to wear distinctive clothing, prohibiting building new houses or repairing old ones.

In Indian front, following Akbar’s death, the semblance of equality that was instituted, started a reversal by his own son Jahanghir, which further worsened under Shahjahan. Jahangir writes that 500-600 thousand people were killed during the rule of Akbar and Jahangir. However, it was all undone when Akbar’s great grandson Aurangzeb ascended throne in 1658. He instituted Islamic Sharia as the ruling principle, reintroduced Jizya and launched a Jihadi campaign of forced conversion of the non-Muslims and destruction of non-Muslim religious institution. When Sikh Guru went to Aurangzeb’s palace to inquire about forced conversion of the Hindus of Kashmir, he was tortured and executed in 1675. Aurangzeb’s rule saw destruction of nearly 10,000 Hindu, Jain and Buddhist temples. In the campaign of 1679-1680, 123 temples were destroyed in Udaipur, 63 in Chittor, 66 in Jaipur [Ibn Warraq, p. 224]. After defeating and taking Maratha king Sambhuraj and his minister Kavikalash prisoner, their eyes were extracted, tongue were cut off and after a fortnight’s torture, their limbs were hacked one by one and thrown to the dogs (1689). [Lal, p. 75]

18th Century

Persecution of the Zoroastrians continued in the 18th century so much so that their numbers “declined disastrously due to combined effects of massacres, forced conversions, and emigration” [Encyclopedia of Islam, Ed II].

The Jews of Jedda were expelled between 1770 and 1786, who flew to Yemen. In 1790, Jews were massacred in Tetuan (Morocco).

Aurangzeb’s policy of persecution and destruction of temples continued in the early 18th century until he died in 1707.

19th Century

In Persia there was forced conversion of Jews in 1839. According the Bernard Lewis, there was also forced conversion of Persian Jews in the 1840s.

In 1828, Jews of Baghdad were massacred. In 1834, a cycle of violence and pillage began against the Jews and their properties in Safed. In 1839, massacre of Jews occurred in Meshed (Iran). The survivors had to suffer forced conversion. A massacre of the Jews took place in Barfurush in 1867. In 1840, the Jews of Damascus were suffered the first in a series of blood libels in many cities. Other outbreaks of violence, murder and pillage of the Jews and their properties occurred in Morocco, Tunisia, Libya and the Arab countries.

Starting in the 7th century, the Armenian Christians suffered terribly in the 19th century. The Turks massacred about 250,000 Armenian Christians in 1894-1896 in a planned and methodical design. General pillage was unleashed. Villages were burned and hundreds of Churches were plundered.

The Zoroastrians faced increased persecution too, such that they were living in complete insecurity and poverty in the 19th century.

20th Century

Massacre of the Armenians continued in the early 20th century. In 1904 and in 1909 CE, about 30,000 Armenians were slaughtered in Adana. The most horrible mass murder of Armenians occurred in 1915, which can be rightly described the first genocide of the 20th century. More than 1,000,000 (one million) Armenians were systematically massacred – thousands were shot to death, drowned (included Children), thrown over the cliffs and the survivors were deported or reduced to slavery – which served as the model for Hitler’s massacre of the Jews in the WW-II.

There is clear evidence of slavery persisting in Saudi Arabia and the Yemen even in the 1950s. A report in a French Magazine in the 1990s gave an estimate of 45,000 Blacks are being kidnapped by the Muslims to be sold in slavery in the Gulf states and the middle east [L Vie, no.2562, Oct 6, 1994].
The Conspirator
S3nd K3ys wrote:
I only saw this because horse quoted it. (I stopped reading Con's drivel. He's way too ignorant and in-coherant.)

The Conspirator wrote:

Read a history book,while Europe was in the dark ages the Muslim would was the center of knowledge and intelligence


It would also seem that the Muslims got stuck in the dark ages. They seem to think it's still ok to murder civilians in the name of religion.

You are so stupid. You call me ignorant while you blindly support an evil nation braced on a word so abstract and subjective that it shouldn't be discussed out side of philosophy.
Did it ever accrue to you to look at the situation, look at how the situation evolved over the century's to find out why. Did t ever accrue to you to look at the the complex reasons why things are happening. Did it ever accrue to you that the situation is far more complex than "we are the good guys and they are the evil terrorists"?
Well it is far more complex than that. I don't assume things are that simple, i look at the complexity's of the situation, I look underlying causes, I look at the history that lead to the currant situation's.
You won't to to find an answer to how to end it? Than you have to understand it. You have to look at the whole situation from the beginning with out think good, evil or terrorist, you add those labels latter but until then there is no good guy, no bad guy, there is no one to support, no one not to support.
I understand the situation, the hole situation far better than you.
So next time you won't to call me ignorant, ask your self, what would you do if you were a Palestinian, look at everything from there persecutive and ask who would you support? The people who stole land from your people, occupy your territory, oppress your people and wage wars that kill hundreds of civilian's or those fighting the people who stole the land from your people, those fighting those who occupier your territory, those fighting those who oppress you, those fighting those that wage wars that kill hundreds of innocent people?
tadssa
thank you Felisleo !!
those peeps are blaming musilman nowdays about the 3000 year ago !! b4 the either the existance of islam !! and sure they are planing to fight Germaney for what Adolf Hitler has done ! then , japanese and .... i wonder what they have in head ?
then "S3nd K3ys" list the pages from a book he says this is holy thing we must all follow ?? i think this peeps are not qualified to Discuss this things
not for been jews , no !! no but becoz they have extemist ideas!! they aim to wip the world after the ME moving the the rest of the world !! dreaming dreaming dreaming dreaming dreaming , in 50 year palestinian are still shooting you , when do u plan to win this war on huzbullah ?? 70000 year ?? , they just lie on you you do better hide under yard they will shoot once again !!
S3nd K3ys
tad,

How can you denounce terrorism yet say Iran deserves to have nukes? Do you think Iran would be responsible? Have you seen what Iran has said recently?

Also, you repeatedly claim the US lives in the past, yet the US has none. You say we blame Muslims and their barbaric history for everything. No, we blame their CURRENT barbaric ambitions and actions to 'rid the world of the infidel'.

The history keeps coming up because Islam is so bad at it. They've reconstructed it so many times they lose track and we have to keep reminding them what really happened. You don't live in the middle ages. Please stop acting like it.

I really don't understand why Islam can't let other religions do thier own thing. Do you know how many muslims practice their choice of religion in the US? Me either, but it's a lot. Wink

So the way us infidels see it, we have a choice; submit to Islam or die or fight those who would kill us for not submitting to Islam.

If you want to see peace, if you want to be left alone, then you, as a Muslim, need to stand up against terrorists like hesbollah, Iran, Syria and the likes. You'll be a lot happier if you leave US alone, I guarentee it.

Quote:

We are told that there is a difference between extremist Islam and peaceloving normal Islam.
Judging by their behavior, Muslims are anti-West, anti-Democracy, anti-Christian, anti-Jewish, anti-Buddhist, and anti-Hindu. Muslims are involved in 25 of some 30 conflicts going on in the world: in Afghanistan, Algeria, Bangladesh, Bosnia, Congo, Cote d'Ivoire, Cyprus, East Timor, India, Indonesia (2 provinces), Kashmir, Kazakastan, Kosovo, Kurdistan, Macedonia, the Middle East, Nigeria, Pakistan, Philippines, Sudan, Russia-Chechnya, Tajikistan, Thailand, Uganda and Uzbekistan.
Doesn't this mean that extremist Islam is the norm and normal Islam is extremely rare?


:edit: What a fitting avatar you have. Is that a representation of the Islamic cause and effect? Shocked
felisleo
[quote="S3nd K3ys"]
Islam-Watch.org wrote:



7th Century

After Prophet Muhammad’s emigration from Mecca to Medina in 622, the exiling and extermination of 3 major Jewish tribes of Medina by 628, has been described above. In 630, Muhammad marched into Mecca, mercilessly captured, destroyed the most sacred pagan temple of Ka’ba and established the Islamic rule there. The pagan inhabitants were given a choice between death and Islam. To save lives, the pagans had no choice but to accept Islam. On the same day, Khalid ibn Walid’s massacre of the entire Jezima tribe for not accepting Islam has already been discussed. Khalid ibn Walid, upon command of Caliph Abu Bakr, launched the blood-letting wars of the apostasy (Ridda) to submit those, who deserted Islam immediately after Muhammad’s death, back to the faith. The utter barbarity of Khalid Ibn Walid against the defeated the Zoroastrian Persians at the Battle of Olayis in Southern Iraq in May 633, whereby he created what is famously called the River of Death has been discussed before


LIE...CRAP..
Quote:

It has already been mentioned that the envoy sent to the Ghassanid prince of Busra had been killed en route at the hands of Shurahbil, a feudatory of the Byzantine emperor. In order to exact reparations, the Prophet, on his return to Medina after the pilgrimage, sent a force of 3,000 men with an order to go to the place where the envoy (Harith ibn 'Umayr al-Azdi) had been killed.

The Holy Prophet gave to Zaid ibn Harithah the command of the army, saying, "If Zaid is killed, then JaTar ibn Abi Talib will be the commander, and if he, too, is killed, then 'Abdullah ibn Rawahah will command the army. And if he is killed, then the Muslims should select someone as their commander."


Hearing it, a Jew said: "If he is a true Prophet, none of these three will remain alive." Before dispatching this expedition, he instructed them as follows:

Many servants of God will be busy worshipping Him in their places of worship (churches). Do not touch them.
Do not lift your hand against any woman (to strike her).
Do not kill any child or minor boy.
Do not kill any old person.

Do not destroy any green tree.




Quote:

15th Century
Over in Constantinople, Sultan Mehemet unleashed utter barbarism. When Constantinople fell to the Muslim army, the Sultan allowed his soldiers to massacre the population for three days. They poured into the city and slew every men, women and children they met in the streets [Ruchimen, The Fall of Constantinople, 1453, p. 145].


LIE..When sultan mehmed entered the city istanbul the first thing he did was to tell the soldiers not to harm anyone and anything.the christian population lived there for centuries.the one thousand year old churches are still there...The christian population lived in the city for centuries..


Quote:

20th Century

Massacre of the Armenians continued in the early 20th century. In 1904 and in 1909 CE, about 30,000 Armenians were slaughtered in Adana. The most horrible mass murder of Armenians occurred in 1915, which can be rightly described the first genocide of the 20th century. More than 1,000,000 (one million) Armenians were systematically massacred – thousands were shot to death, drowned (included Children), thrown over the cliffs and the survivors were deported or reduced to slavery – which served as the model for Hitler’s massacre of the Jews in the WW-II.



LIE...armenians did live in anatolia in peace for centuries.when WW1 started they tried the exterminate the local muslims on east (turks , kurds)but the salvation army forces achieved to stop them.they were defeated and yes some were killed (alot less than what they say) but instead of accepting it with honour they began crying in front of evry west country.

The site you took this article is one-sided wrong and racist just like you...
this history written there is a comlete he said she said thing and mostly inaccurate on purpose.we never saw those but we lived algeria ,we lived bosnia , auschwitz , kosova , africa , india, indians , me ...if it is about civilization aztecs and incas had it.why did you kill them?(get it now? Wink )

you didn t get a single point in my early post and i won t bother to rewrite.after all you see what you want to.
but i ll give you a hint it wasn t about who kills who.

islam lets other people of different religion to live.many muslim cities are full of churches and sinagogs.but do you see one single mosque in spain?arabs had a big civilization there...
israil is not wanted because it is torturing the palestinians and its neighbours.i wrote down the solution to this conflict..you wanna hear it again?here you go..

GET OUT OF ME.TAKE YOUR BLOODY OIL FROM CANADA.
ISRAEL LET PALESTINIANS BE FREE.STAY INSIDE YOUR BORDERS.
haak_heu
israel is killing innocent people in lebnan , childers , women and unarmed personals ...why ???

they say that hezbullah kill innocent people ...yes but why ??? because they dont have guided missiles nor so much knowledge about area becaue they dont have informer or planes like israel have ..but
israel has guided missiles they are very proffesional and have advance technology but they are bomarding mostly innocent persons ...why ????

what the hail america eurapaen countries and united nation is doing ?

what the people belonging to these countries are doing ?

If this will continue to go ,muslim will start thinking that hamas , islamic jihad , alqaeda are right , they will go to them ..what you thging if your family is killed by israels and all were inocent what will you do ?
definantly you will start fighting for one of those jihadi groups and will want to get revange ...

this all must be stoped and world should not take one side ...
If alqaeda is terrorist than israel and america is more terroris that any other country or group .. if they continue to doing this ..war .. war and war all they want is war ..
nopaniers
SendKeys, you didn't mention, after cutting and pasting from bornacatholic's rant of hatred, that he posted a swastika, and that in a related post he indicates that he daydreams of machine gunning people.
nopaniers
In real news, as opposed to racial villification, today Israel rejected a call for a three day ceasefire so that humanitarian assistance could be supplied to Lebanon.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5226076.stm
jipmerite
I'd just like to say that I totally agree with felisleo's post above. That article is so way off the truth that I cannot express the sadness I feel to see S3nd K3ys actually be fool enough to Quote it.

Man, please get your facts right before making a public statement. Have some shame.
S3nd K3ys
Everyone crying "Lies" and "Biased" and yet nobody can provide proof.

LoL. So Funny. It's odd how violently you all react when the shoe's on the other foot and history is changed so it's NOT in favor of Muslims, isn't it? Laughing Laughing

Anyway I see I made my point loud and clear. And if you dispute any of what I posted, and want to carry even a small amount of cridibility, (something I find very little of from the principals here who are supporting terrorism) then by all means, prove this site wrong. Laughing

nopaniers wrote:
In real news, as opposed to racial villification, today Israel rejected a call for a three day ceasefire so that humanitarian assistance could be supplied to Lebanon.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5226076.stm


There are already plenty of corridores for humanitarian aid. And hesbollah are blocking them. Your beloved hesbollah are blocking the routs set for humanitarian aid to cause a humanitarian crisis.

Does it suprise you that these terrorists would harm civilians? Or do you still refuse to see that?

Laughing Laughing Laughing

You =
S3nd K3ys
Mohammad taught Muslims to kill Jews.

Quote:
Sahih Bukhari Hadith Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176: Narrated by 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.'" Sahih Bukhari Hadith Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177: Narrated by Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."
S3nd K3ys
No media bias here.

Quote:
CNN, in order to provide 'perspective', had a 'Middle East expert' give the alleged historical perspective on the current conflict. I couldn't believe my eyes and ears.

In about two minutes, he said that Israel was founded in 1948, then in 1967 Israel 'attacked their neighboring states' and took over 'all this territory'. (Map shown)

Then this unprincipled ass summed up the entire rest of the last 39 years as 'And they have been fighting over that land ever since'.

Here is a quick correction of this 'expert's' summary.

In about two minutes, he said that Israel was founded in 1948, after which it was immediately, massively, attacked by the surrounding Arab states, at which time, while hideously outnumbered and out gunned, Israel kicked their asses back to their starting points and beyond, while losing Old Jerusalem to Jordan (where all Jewish property and synagogues were immediately sacked and destroyed) , then in 1967 Israel 'attacked their neighboring states' failing to mention the massive armies of Egypt and Jordan and Syria that were massed on their borders waiting to attack, and the absolutely critical Arab naval blockade of the Strait of Tiran, Israel's only source of oil, as well as most of it's trade, which, if allowed to continue would have strangled the country and crippled Israel's ability to defend itself and took over 'all this territory' including the Lebanese territory which they gave back, the Sinai which they gave back, The Gaza strip which they gave back and the other territories, which Israel gave back with the only exception being the Golan Heights (A favored spot by the Arabs for raining mortars and rockets on Israel for 20 years) and the West Bank. By the way, Mr. expert assh-le, they did regain Old Jerusalem. which they didn't give back, yet still allowed Muslim access to any and all religious sites in the Old City, which were undamaged by Israel.

'And they have been fighting over that land ever since'. Yeah, with Israel suffering countless terrorist attacks, mortars, rockets, and brutal murders of it's citizens, while continually making concessions and 'peace agreements', the only party of which has kept it's end of the bargain being Israel.

This is where the majority of Americans learn their history.

Next time I run across a CNN 'journalist', I am going to be hard pressed to restrain my urge to spit. Unprincipled, decietful, sick bastards. Now, not all journalists are necessarily complicit in the airing of this deceitful, biased 'history', BUT, how many who do know the true history and are aware of this whitewash of Arab duplicity and treachery will step forward, speak out, write articles, give interviews to correct the record? None, that's how many. All the while touting how 'brave' they are.

I am going to try to capture the segment if I see it aired again, and send it to one of the 'Acccuracy in Media' (what an oxymoron!) sites.
S3nd K3ys
Quote:
Given that Islam’s founder was a military leader who personally conducted terror attacks on caravans, led offensive battles against communities in order to steal and subjugate, who took slaves, broke truces, supervised the execution of captives, advocated the murder of Jews, and even advised his warriors on how best to rape women captured in battle, it is a wonder that there isn’t more violence than we see today.


It's no wonder Islam is so ****** up

Here's some more history for you...

americanthinker.com wrote:
The Timeline

630 Two years before Muhammad’s death of a fever, he launches the Tabuk Crusades, in which he led 30,000 jihadists against the Byzantine Christians. He had heard a report that a huge army had amassed to attack Arabia, but the report turned out to be a false rumor. The Byzantine army never materialized. He turned around and went home, but not before extracting “agreements” from northern tribes. They could enjoy the “privilege” of living under Islamic “protection” (read: not be attacked by Islam), if they paid a tax (jizya).

This tax sets the stage for Muhammad’s and the later Caliphs’ policies. If the attacked city or region did not want to convert to Islam, then they paid a jizya tax. If they converted, then they paid a zakat tax. Either way, money flowed back to the Islamic treasury in Arabia or to the local Muslim governor.

632-634 Under the Caliphate of Abu Bakr the Muslim Crusaders reconquer and sometimes conquer for the first time the polytheists of Arabia. These Arab polytheists had to convert to Islam or die. They did not have the choice of remaining in their faith and paying a tax. Islam does not allow for religious freedom.

633 The Muslim Crusaders, led by Khalid al-Walid, a superior but bloodthirsty military commander, whom Muhammad nicknamed the Sword of Allah for his ferocity in battle (Tabari, 8:158 / 1616-17), conquer the city of Ullays along the Euphrates River (in today’s Iraq). Khalid captures and beheads so many that a nearby canal, into which the blood flowed, was called Blood Canal (Tabari 11:24 / 2034-35).

634 At the Battle of Yarmuk in Syria the Muslim Crusaders defeat the Byzantines. Today Osama bin Laden draws inspiration from the defeat, and especially from an anecdote about Khalid al-Walid. An unnamed Muslim remarks: “The Romans are so numerous and the Muslims so few.” To this Khalid retorts: “How few are the Romans, and how many the Muslims! Armies become numerous only with victory and few only with defeat, not by the number of men. By God, I would love it . . . if the enemy were twice as many” (Tabari, 11:94 / 2095). Osama bin Ladin quotes Khalid and says that his fighters love death more than we in the West love life. This philosophy of death probably comes from a verse like Sura 2:96. Muhammad assesses the Jews: “[Prophet], you are sure to find them [the Jews] clinging to life more eagerly than any other people, even polytheists” (MAS Abdel Haleem, The Qur’an, Oxford UP, 2004; first insertion in brackets is Haleem’s; the second mine).

634-644 The Caliphate of Umar ibn al-Khattab, who is regarded as particularly brutal.

635 Muslim Crusaders besiege and conquer of Damascus

636 Muslim Crusaders defeat Byzantines decisively at Battle of Yarmuk.

637 Muslim Crusaders conquer Iraq at the Battle of al-Qadisiyyah (some date it in 635 or 636)

638 Muslim Crusaders conquer and annex Jerusalem, taking it from the Byzantines.

638-650 Muslim Crusaders conquer Iran, except along Caspian Sea.

639-642 Muslim Crusaders conquer Egypt.

641 Muslim Crusaders control Syria and Palestine.

643-707 Muslim Crusaders conquer North Africa.

644 Caliph Umar is assassinated by a Persian prisoner of war; Uthman ibn Affan is elected third Caliph, who is regarded by many Muslims as gentler than Umar.

644-650 Muslim Crusaders conquer Cyprus, Tripoli in North Africa, and establish Islamic rule in Iran, Afghanistan, and Sind.

656 Caliph Uthman is assassinated by disgruntled Muslim soldiers; Ali ibn Abi Talib, son-in-law and cousin to Muhammad, who married the prophet’s daughter Fatima through his first wife Khadija, is set up as Caliph.

656 Battle of the Camel, in which Aisha, Muhammad’s wife, leads a rebellion against Ali for not avenging Uthman’s assassination. Ali’s partisans win.

657 Battle of Siffin between Ali and Muslim governor of Jerusalem, arbitration goes against Ali

661 Murder of Ali by an extremist; Ali’s supporters acclaim his son Hasan as next Caliph, but he comes to an agreement with Muawiyyah I and retires to Medina.

661-680 the Caliphate of Muawiyyah I. He founds Umayyid dynasty and moves capital from Medina to Damascus

673-678 Arabs besiege Constantinople, capital of Byzantine Empire

680 Massacre of Hussein (Muhammad’s grandson), his family, and his supporters in Karbala, Iraq.

691 Dome of the Rock is completed in Jerusalem, only six decades after Muhammad’s death.

705 Abd al-Malik restores Umayyad rule.

710-713 Muslim Crusaders conquer the lower Indus Valley.

711-713 Muslim Crusaders conquer Spain and impose the kingdom of Andalus. This article recounts how Muslims today still grieve over their expulsion 700 years later. They seem to believe that the land belonged to them in the first place.

719 Cordova, Spain, becomes seat of Arab governor

732 The Muslim Crusaders stopped at the Battle of Poitiers; that is, Franks (France) halt Arab advance

749 The Abbasids conquer Kufah and overthrow Umayyids

756 Foundation of Umayyid amirate in Cordova, Spain, setting up an independent kingdom from Abbasids

762 Foundation of Baghdad

785 Foundation of the Great Mosque of Cordova

789 Rise of Idrisid amirs (Muslim Crusaders) in Morocco; foundation of Fez; Christoforos, a Muslim who converted to Christianity, is executed.

800 Autonomous Aghlabid dynasty (Muslim Crusaders) in Tunisia

807 Caliph Harun al-Rashid orders the destruction of non-Muslim prayer houses and of the church of Mary Magdalene in Jerusalem

809 Aghlabids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Sardinia, Italy

813 Christians in Palestine are attacked; many flee the country

831 Muslim Crusaders capture Palermo, Italy; raids in Southern Italy

850 Caliph al-Matawakkil orders the destruction of non-Muslim houses of prayer

855 Revolt of the Christians of Hims (Syria)

837-901 Aghlabids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Sicily, raid Corsica, Italy, France

869-883 Revolt of black slaves in Iraq

909 Rise of the Fatimid Caliphate in Tunisia; these Muslim Crusaders occupy Sicily, Sardinia

928-969 Byzantine military revival, they retake old territories, such as Cyprus (964) and Tarsus (969)

937 The Ikhshid, a particularly harsh Muslim ruler, writes to Emperor Romanus, boasting of his control over the holy places

937 The Church of the Resurrection (known as Church of Holy Sepulcher in Latin West) is burned down by Muslims; more churches in Jerusalem are attacked

960 Conversion of Qarakhanid Turks to Islam

966 Anti-Christian riots in Jerusalem

969 Fatimids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Egypt and found Cairo

c. 970 Seljuks enter conquered Islamic territories from the East

973 Israel and southern Syria are again conquered by the Fatimids

1003 First persecutions by al-Hakim; the Church of St. Mark in Fustat, Egypt, is destroyed

1009 Destruction of the Church of the Resurrection by al-Hakim (see 937)

1012 Beginning of al-Hakim’s oppressive decrees against Jews and Christians

1015 Earthquake in Palestine; the dome of the Dome of the Rock collapses

1031 Collapse of Umayyid Caliphate and establishment of 15 minor independent dynasties throughout Muslim Andalus

1048 Reconstruction of the Church of the Resurrection completed

1050 Creation of Almoravid (Muslim Crusaders) movement in Mauretania; Almoravids (aka Murabitun) are coalition of western Saharan Berbers; followers of Islam, focusing on the Quran, the hadith, and Maliki law.

1055 Seljuk Prince Tughrul enters Baghdad, consolidation of the Seljuk Sultanate

1055 Confiscation of property of Church of the Resurrection

1071 Battle of Manzikert, Seljuk Turks (Muslim Crusaders) defeat Byzantines and occupy much of Anatolia

1071 Turks (Muslim Crusaders) invade Palestine

1073 Conquest of Jerusalem by Turks (Muslim Crusaders)

1075 Seljuks (Muslim Crusaders) capture Nicea (Iznik) and make it their capital in Anatolia

1076 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) (see 1050) conquer western Ghana

1085 Toledo is taken back by Christian armies

1086 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) (see 1050) send help to Andalus, Battle of Zallaca

1090-1091 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) occupy all of Andalus except Saragossa and Balearic Islands

1094 Byzantine emperor Alexius Comnenus I asks western Christendom for help against Seljuk invasions of his territory; Seljuks are Muslim Turkish family of eastern origins; see 970

1095 Pope Urban II preaches first Crusade; they capture Jerusalem in 1099

So it is only after all of the Islamic aggressive invasions that Western Christendom launches its first Crusades.
felisleo
S3nd K3ys wrote:
Mohammad taught Muslims to kill Jews.


of course.mohammed told adolf to kill all the jews in his dream too.no wait in fact hitler was a muslim agent.. Laughing

wiki wrote:

Official persecution and massacres (1300-1391)
In the beginning of the fourteenth century the position of Jews became precarious throughout Spain as anti-semitism increased many Jews emigrated from Castile and from Aragon. It was not until the reigns of Alfonso IV and Pedro IV of Aragon, and of the young and active Alfonso XI of Castile (1325), that an improvement set in. Pedro I, the son and successor of Alfonso XI, was favorably disposed toward the Jews, who under him reached the zenith of their influence. For this reason the king was called "the heretic"; he was often called "the cruel." Pedro, whose education had been neglected, was not quite sixteen years of age when he ascended the throne (1350). From the commencement of his reign he so surrounded himself with Jews that his enemies in derision spoke of his court as "a Jewish court." Soon, however a civil war erupted, as Henry de Trastamara and his brother, at the head of a rapacious mob, invaded (Sabbath, May 7, 1355) that part of the Juderia of Toledo called the Alcana; they plundered the ware-houses and murdered about 12,000 persons, without distinction of age or sex. The mob did not, however, succeed in overrunning the Juderia proper, where the Jews, reinforced by a number of Toledan noblemen, defended themselves bravely.

The more friendly Pedro showed himself toward the Jews, and the more he protected them, the more antagonistic became the attitude of his illegitimate half-brother, who, when he invaded Castile in 1360, murdered all the Jews living in Najera and exposed those of Miranda de Ebro to robbery and butchery.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Spain#Massacres_of_1366

no way...the spanish were muslim influenced too..ohh mein got!! Laughing

wiki wrote:

Number of the exiles

Algiers (muslim)10,000
America 5,000
Egypt and Tripoli (muslim)2,000
France 3,000
Holland, England, Scandinavia and Hamburg 25,000
Italy 9,000
Morocco (muslim)20,000
Ottoman Empire/Turkey (muslim)90,000
Elsewhere 1,000
_________
Total emigrated 165,000
Baptized 50,000
Died on the journey 20,000


the biggest amounts are accepted by muslims and turks.wow they must have been converted or something...
buhahhaha Laughing sandkeys your ignorance and stupidity is funny sometimes.but the thing is even a racist ignorant must be able to see that nothing is black and white.why aren t you?

you are not answering any of the posts by the way you are just quoting (lies) or making racist accusations.start reading posts and give up the us
stands for world peace crap..
bangala
Israelies: We are in big trouble!
Israelis are pulling out of south Lebanon!

Nobody is dreaming any longer of destroying Hezbollah!
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/743764.html

A new poll in an Israeli Newspaper: We are losing the battle!
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/rosnerMain.jhtml
tadssa
S3nd K3ys did you neant to go off-topic once again? you're super smart !! you know what even we have not the same point of view , bravo !! , why did you bring this history book to our discussion ? we are Discussing World News , and should every one bring his books i have 1000's , you just read them for yourself !!
today we heard the hero talking via the greaaaaaaat TV station al manar once again !! was great he talked to fighters telling them :"i'm pround pround that i was accepted amidst you , you're the leaders not me !! go ahead !! "
Arnie
No, I haven't read all of this discussion. But even without that I have a good idea where it's probably going. You're probably enjoying yourself with sarcastic comments against the prejudice of side A, while side B is just as/even more prejudiced but they're allowed to because it's the common opinion.

It's easy to say Israel does this and does that, and not mention what Hizbollah does at all. Then you're just an inch away from actually siding with them. That's what I see going on all around. You'll probably even find some more extreme people claiming that Hizbollah is right. It's a bit the Microsoft/Google situation: Google does a lot of stuff wrong too, but because everyone hates Microsoft and because Google is attacking them, Google's good.

I'm not saying Israel is doing it all OK, because I don't know.
Billy Hill
First and Foremost; Israel needs to finish dismantling the terrorist organization which has embedded itself into Lebanon. If Lebanon doesn't want to do it, and the UN doesn't want to do it, then Israel MUST do it. The terrorist organization is there illegally according to the UN, yet the UN refuses to remove them.

Israel has again proven thier compassion for human life by warning civilians of pending attacks on many many occasions, some times even including TELEPHONE CALLS INTO LEBANON to warn citizens of attacks. While the terrorist organization continually reigns rockets down on cities with no regard for innocent lives.

All those on this board who are supporting the terrorist organization are doing so in the name of hatred and cowardice. The terrorist organization in Lebanon is firing rockets into cities for no reason except to terrorize. They attacked Israel unprovoked and will deserve what they are getting.

The Jews are the true and rightful owners and occupiers of the Holy Land known as Israel. They were promised that land by God. God will protect them from any and all who would try to take it from her.

wiki wrote:
Zionism is a political movement and ideology that supports a homeland for the Jewish people in the Land of Israel, where the Jewish nation originated over 3,200 years ago and where Jewish kingdoms and self-governing states existed up to the 2nd century. While Zionism is based in part upon religious tradition linking the Jewish people to the Land of Israel, the modern movement was originally secular, beginning largely as a response to rampant antisemitism in Europe and in many parts of the Muslim world during the 19th Century. After a number of advances and setbacks, and after the Holocaust had destroyed much of the existing Jewish society in Europe, the Zionist movement culminated in the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948.


Interesting story.

Irish Worker Finds Ancient Book of Psalms

Think it's a coincidence?

Read the contents of Psalm 83:
Quote:

(Psa 83:1) A Song. A Psalm of Asaph. O God, do not keep silence; do not hold your peace or be still, O God!

(Psa 83:2) For behold, your enemies make an uproar; those who hate you have raised their heads.

(Psa 83:3) They lay crafty plans against your people; they consult together against your treasured ones.

(Psa 83:4) They say, "Come, let us wipe them out as a nation; let the name of Israel be remembered no more!"

(Psa 83:5) For they conspire with one accord; against you they make a covenant--

(Psa 83:6) the tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites, Moab and the Hagrites,

(Psa 83:7) Gebal and Ammon and Amalek, Philistia with the inhabitants of Tyre;

(Psa 83:8) Asshur also has joined them; they are the strong arm of the children of Lot. Selah.

(Psa 83:9) Do to them as you did to Midian, as to Sisera and Jabin at the river Kishon,

(Psa 83:10) who were destroyed at En-dor, who became dung for the ground.

(Psa 83:11) Make their nobles like Oreb and Zeeb, all their princes like Zebah and Zalmunna,

(Psa 83:12) who said, "Let us take possession for ourselves of the pastures of God."

(Psa 83:13) O my God, make them like whirling dust, like chaff before the wind.

(Psa 83:14) As fire consumes the forest, as the flame sets the mountains ablaze,

(Psa 83:15) so may you pursue them with your tempest and terrify them with your hurricane!

(Psa 83:16) Fill their faces with shame, that they may seek your name, O LORD.

(Psa 83:17) Let them be put to shame and dismayed forever; let them perish in disgrace,

(Psa 83:18) that they may know that you alone, whose name is the LORD, are the Most High over all the earth.
Think it's a coincidence? We'll have to see the outcome to know for sure.
horseatingweeds
Billy Hill wrote:
While the terrorist organization continually reigns rockets down on cities with no regard for innocent lives.


No, WITH regard to innocent lives. Their efforts are to kill as many innocent people as possible including Lebanese.
nopaniers
It seems to me that this isn't an issue between Jews and Muslims. This is between those who want killing/war and ordinary people who don't.

SendKeys is posting the most inflamatory things. Does it help anything? No. What it does is spread hatred. It is so easy to point out how biased he is. Take as one example: The fall of Constantinople. If you try to look up the reference, you'll find that it doesn't exist, which pretty much means that he blindly cut and paste without even bothering to check if what he was saying was true. So what of the truth? Well it seems that Constantinople was sacked by the Chritian crusaders for three days in 1203:
Wikipedia wrote:
The crusaders inflicted a horrible and savage sacking on Constantinople for three days, during which many ancient and medieval Roman and Greek works were stolen or destroyed. Despite their oaths and the threat of excommunication, the Crusaders ruthlessly and systematically violated the city's holy sanctuaries, destroying, defiling, or stealing all they could lay hands on; according to Choniates a prostitute was even set up on the Patriarchal throne.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Crusade
But of course, he wants to pretend that it is only muslims who have done things like this. So what does it say about the muslims?
Quote:
After the initial assault, the Ottoman army fanned out along the main throughfare of the city, the Mese, past the great forums, and past the mammoth church of the Holy Apostles, which Mehmet purposely spared to provide a seat for his new patriach which would tend his Christian flock. Mehmet had sent an advance guard to protect key buildings such as the Holy Apostles, as he had absolutely no intention of inheriting a thoroughly devastated city. ... Although Mehmet II allowed the rape, pillage and looting of the city, as was the custom of all armies during that age, he changed his mind after seeing the great structures of the city being destroyed and stopped the activities after 24 hours.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_constantinople
And so it seems that the muslim leader was actually much less barbaric than the Christians. They only looted for a single day, not the customary three days like the Christians, and posted guards to important buildings making sure they were protected.

This is a battle between extremism and normal people. Extremists want to push the world towards extremes and violence. They want to villify other people, and will justify even killing innocent people based on half truths. From Lebanon to the cartoons, it's all just one big excuse for these people to push their hatred on us. I have no quarrel with Muslim people, even if I don't agree that their religion is the right one. I do have a quarrel with people who tell me that I should hate other people.

Jesus in Matthew 5 wrote:
You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?
felisleo
nopaniers wrote:
It seems to me that this isn't an issue between Jews and Muslims.


no it is not.it is about justice .it is about taking the side of the weak.
FunFunkyFritz
Billy Hill wrote:
The Jews are the true and rightful owners and occupiers of the Holy Land known as Israel. They were promised that land by God. God will protect them from any and all who would try to take it from her.

I don't think even the people in Israel believes in that. Why do they need an army and why do they need illegal nuclear WMD if they think "God" will protect Israel?

The land was given by UN, i.e. people - not "God".

Let's keep this discussion free from superstitious mumbo jumbo.
redace
Nobody really knows what is happening there. So much noise for two soldiers. Today 30 civilists died for two soldiers and many lives was taken before. USA want to see Iran on the knees an Iran is the main hand behind Hizballah. Maybe someone want to start a silent conflict because it is very dangerous for him to be the one who strart it. I don't but everyting leads to it.
diverden
Quote:
TYRE, Lebanon (CNN) -- Israel said it mistakenly destroyed a four-story building near a Hezbollah rocket-launching site in Qana, Lebanon, on Sunday where the Red Cross and Lebanese internal security sources at the scene said 54 people died, including 19 children.


Yes I know what collateral damage is, easy to say if it isn't someone you know and yes, the rockets from Hezbollah also kill innocent civilians. Does anyone else seem to think that it is extremely ironic that we are giving bombs to one side and bandages to the other, sort of a perpetual cycle. Maybe it is a good time to buy stock in munitions, laser guided bombs and health related goods so that we cover all of the bases.
The Conspirator
horseatingweeds: Terrorism is subjective. Your idea f what terrorism is is not universe accepted and there is no unevenly excepted definition. Would you say evil is not subjective? Would you say art is not subjective? They are. If the majority of people can not agree on what something is than it is subjective, if the majority can, than it is not.

S3: I apologise for calling you stupid, that is no reason to intentionally insult some one in serous debate.
Stop trying to spread hatred and bigotry, Islam is the same as Christianity and Judaism, in fact its better. Your problem is you judge all Muslims by a small minority (relatively speaking). Don't judge the whole, Judge each person deviously no matter if they are Christan, Jewish, Muslim, Atheist, Buddhist, Satanist or anything else.

To every one. Goggle is shit! Stop pulling random site out of google that support your beliefs. None of them are objective, none of them are accurate. To find an objective accurate site on google you would have to go through thousands of sites.
horseatingweeds
Dam it con, go back and read our posts. I’m not going to waste time repeating myself. You obviously lack the motivation to understand.
James007
People please... calm down.
FunFunkyFritz
The Conspirator wrote:
horseatingweeds: Terrorism is subjective. Your idea f what terrorism is is not universe accepted and there is no unevenly excepted definition. Would you say evil is not subjective? Would you say art is not subjective? They are. If the majority of people can not agree on what something is than it is subjective, if the majority can, than it is not.

Two guys in Sweden was put up on the international terrorist list. They got all their money confiscated by the EU because of this.
They both had dealings with a bank where a man had a bank account. This man had a nephew who did know a guy who once talked to a real terrorist (ok, i don't exactly remember their relation with the real terrorist, i heard this on the radio, but the paper-trail was VERY far-fetched).

Anyhow, there two men were after some years about to be free of ALL charges, they just had to sign a paper where they promised not to sue anybody in the US or EU because they had been wrongfully accused of terrorism.

One of the men signed the agreement, and he was set free from all charges. The other man did not sign and he is, to my knowledge, still treated as a terrorist. Constant surveillance and he's not allowed to earn/poses any money.

So if you are a terrorist just because you want to sue for wrongful accusations, then i feel the term "terrorist" is VERY subjective.
horseatingweeds
FunFunkyFritz, maybe you and Conspirator can car pool back up the thread. Wink

Yes 'terrorist' is a subjective term. Yes 'terrorist' is a subjective term. Yes 'terrorist' is a subjective term. Yes 'terrorist' is a subjective term. Yes 'terrorist' is a subjective term. Yes 'terrorist' is a subjective term. Yes 'terrorist' is a subjective term. Yes 'terrorist' is a subjective term. JUST LIKE ALL TERMS.

The point Con refuses to absorb is that there is an entity, call it terrorist, entity-X, a chicken’s egg or what ever, that commits 1, 2, 3, &4 and requires being dealt with in a particular way.

ALSO, my point well behind that one before Con started shoveling definitions on my front lawn was that using the term ‘terrorist’ for all kinds of thing based on your subjective point of view is dangerous. For example calling Israel a terrorist or the situation that you have described, for the reasons you have implied.
HoboPelican
I've been away from this for awhile and I almost hesitate to get back into this, but is terrorism really that subjective?

Definition from Freedicitonary.com
Quote:
The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.


Is that subjective? The definition does not use freedom fighters or countries or any other group. Depending on the tactics used, ANY group can be considered terrorists. It doesn't matter if you are fighting for freedom, defending yourself or just doing it because you are a nut case. If you are illegally using force to intimidate society, you are a terrorist.
The Conspirator
horseatingweeds: I see. I was wrong.


HoboPelican wrote:
I've been away from this for awhile and I almost hesitate to get back into this, but is terrorism really that subjective?

Definition from Freedicitonary.com
Quote:
The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.


Is that subjective? The definition does not use freedom fighters or countries or any other group. Depending on the tactics used, ANY group can be considered terrorists. It doesn't matter if you are fighting for freedom, defending yourself or just doing it because you are a nut case. If you are illegally using force to intimidate society, you are a terrorist.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definition_of_terrorism
Oxford English Dictionary says terrorism is one thing, Webster's Dictionary says its another, American Heritage Dictionary says its another, The United Nations hasn't ageeed on what it is yet, European Union says its another, US DOD says its another, the USA PATRIOT Act says its another and blaw, blaw, blaw.
Basicaly there is no unaversly or widly exsepted defantion of what terrorism is thus its subjectiv.
tadssa
Quote:
If you are illegally using force to intimidate society, you are a terrorist.



bravo HoboPelican !!
HoboPelican
Quote:
The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.


The Conspirator wrote:

Oxford English Dictionary says terrorism is one thing, Webster's Dictionary says its another, American Heritage Dictionary says its another, The United Nations hasn't ageeed on what it is yet, European Union says its another, US DOD says its another, the USA PATRIOT Act says its another and blaw, blaw, blaw.
Basicaly there is no unaversly or widly exsepted defantion of what terrorism is thus its subjectiv.


Ok, forget any government definitions. Using those is a sure way to confuse the issue. Are there any dictionary definitions that differ appreciably from the one above? The dictionaries I have at home here are virtually identical.

If you have a legit definition that differs, that's fine, I'd like to see it.
But lacking that, I think we have a pretty good definition of what terrorism
is.
horseatingweeds
Regardless of comfy definition, there is an entity, YES? This entity we must realize. Us as small people, without government and agenda ‘definition’ that there is a type of useless hatred that threatens society hither and yon? We must all, regardless of faith, indoctrination, patriotism, loyalty, virtue or love pitch against?

YES

Stop them now!
FunFunkyFritz
horseatingweeds wrote:
Regardless of comfy definition, there is an entity, YES? This entity we must realize. Us as small people, without government and agenda ‘definition’ that there is a type of useless hatred that threatens society hither and yon? We must all, regardless of faith, indoctrination, patriotism, loyalty, virtue or love pitch against?

YES

Stop them now!

I agree with you on that, there is an entity that needs to be dealt with.
BUT... i don't think nations should have a "get ouf of jail card", they too should be labeled as terrorists when they commit the same crimes as "real" terrorists does.

For example. **IF** Noam Chomsky has all the facts correct in his book/lectures "Distorted Morality". Then US is a state terrorist, and it should be recoginised as one.
nopaniers
Thank goodness the bombing has stopped for two days. It is a pity that 50 people, including more than 30 children had to die for this to happen.
The Conspirator
HoboPelican wrote:
Quote:
The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.


The Conspirator wrote:

Oxford English Dictionary says terrorism is one thing, Webster's Dictionary says its another, American Heritage Dictionary says its another, The United Nations hasn't ageeed on what it is yet, European Union says its another, US DOD says its another, the USA PATRIOT Act says its another and blaw, blaw, blaw.
Basicaly there is no unaversly or widly exsepted defantion of what terrorism is thus its subjectiv.


Ok, forget any government definitions. Using those is a sure way to confuse the issue. Are there any dictionary definitions that differ appreciably from the one above? The dictionaries I have at home here are virtually identical.

If you have a legit definition that differs, that's fine, I'd like to see it.
But lacking that, I think we have a pretty good definition of what terrorism
is.


Its like evil, you look in any dictionary, evil will have similar definitions but no one can agree on what evil is. One man says its this, another says its that and so on.
whiteshadow
the land that you called it "Israel"
it's not for the Zionists
In fact is the Palestinian people
And has been strongly taken injustice British in 1948, where the plight of Palestine. and the Jews has lied a large lie and still lie
where they say that the land of Palestine for them


AND
Where is the subject I have written in this forum I have written 3 subjects and now I can not find any of them


ÃáÇ áÚäÉ Çááå Úáì ÇáßÇÝÑíä
æ ÍÓÈäÇ Çááå æ äÚã Çáæßíá

Zionists, dream that the land of Palestine is the land of Israel and imagine what you want and lie to the peoples of the world and say to them.
But the right still right and falsifying of history and the facts will not help you. Wait, you Jew. Wait Bakhebr comes to you again...
James007
whiteshadow wrote:


AND
Where is the subject I have written in this forum I have written 3 subjects and now I can not find any of them


We asked to NOT make any more topics on the middle east conflict. You did, we removed them.
whiteshadow
why you do that ?
you must
move it
not remove it
The theme reflects the fact Zionists and Hezbollah

Fine. I want to re-write the topic again. Where is taking so as not to be dropped again
whiteshadow
i Must re-writing to can Everyone know the reality of the situation which occurs in the Middle East
Bockman
enough already whiteshadow. you've caused enough problems already.

Goodbye
James007
whiteshadow wrote:
why you do that ?
you must
move it
not remove it
The theme reflects the fact Zionists and Hezbollah

Fine. I want to re-write the topic again. Where is taking so as not to be dropped again

No you won't.
tadssa
well
i was tryin to understand but he was already baned !!
James007
tadssa wrote:
NOT FAIR

The first post of this topic clearly states that we won't tolerate any more topics on the middle east conflict. Everything should be posted within this topic. Shout as much as much as you want, but you should do it in this topic, not somewhere else. As he didn't want to listen, and was clearly planning on reposting those topics, there is only one way to cool him down.
tadssa
how long is he baned for?
i hope he can understand that we shouldn't broke forum low !!
tadssa
tadssa wrote:
well
i was tryin to understand but he was already banned !!



i changed this post : b4 it was
Quote:
NOT FAIR
tadssa
b4 to post that one i just set and wonder ,
when will this war finish ?
how will that happen ?
have you ever asked your self when ?
will it spread to all the world?
then how many countries are getting ready now ?
are you ready for nuclear war ?
how many victims will fall?
am i going to be one of them ?
are you ready to lose all your family member,or at least one of them ?
if that happen how will be your re-act ?
no one can answer this questions , and many others have never asked themselves!!!!!! but we can guess , the end is worst than what you think for both sides !!! if you're supporting war do best getting ready to say goodbye to your town , country , family , friends , enemies and maybe to life .


stopp supporting your death !!!
S3nd K3ys
The Conspirator wrote:

S3: I apologise for calling you stupid, that is no reason to intentionally insult some one in serous debate.
Stop trying to spread hatred and bigotry, Islam is the same as Christianity and Judaism, in fact its better. Your problem is you judge all Muslims by a small minority (relatively speaking). Don't judge the whole, Judge each person deviously no matter if they are Christan, Jewish, Muslim, Atheist, Buddhist, Satanist or anything else.

To every one. Goggle is ****! Stop pulling random site out of google that support your beliefs. None of them are objective, none of them are accurate. To find an objective accurate site on google you would have to go through thousands of sites.


1) It's impossible to have a serious debate with you, you repeatedly ignore what others are saying.

2) Islam is NOT the same as Christianity. If all religions were the same, there would not be a war in the ME right now. Rolling Eyes

3) You say Islam is "in fact better" then you go on to say "Your problem is you judge" and "Don't Judge" when you clearly JUDGED Islam vs other religions. You're a damn hypocryte.

4) Now you're trying to discredit Google? That's like discrediting the entire internet. That's retarded. Nobody is allowed to get info from google any more! Laughing Laughing Laughing
tadssa
all of you are motivated not just with an idea but by a common and deeply held religious belief, wich realy make it impossible to have a common language and conceptual framework !!
if we go on that way , we can never have serious debate !!!!
Helios
Then we must think alike, but as far as I know, we're human.
S3nd K3ys
tadssa wrote:
all of you are motivated not just with an idea but by a common and deeply held religious belief, wich realy make it impossible to have a common language and conceptual framework !!
if we go on that way , we can never have serious debate !!!!


You're absolutely wrong. I don't practice ANY religion. Laughing Laughing Laughing

It's not a matter of religion for me, it's a matter of who's hiding behind women and children to fight a war, and who's being very careful to not target said women and children.

felisleo
Billy Hill wrote:
Israel has again proven thier compassion for human life .


of course they have...israil is nothing but a big bawl of compassion...

Quote:

Bodies still buried under rubble after Qana attack
The World Today - Monday, 31 July , 2006 12:22:00
Reporter: Karen Barlow
ELEANOR HALL: The United Nations Security Council has just issued a statement deploring yesterday's bombing of the Lebanese town of Qana, in which at least 54 civilians were killed, 37 of them children.

But the UN statement, while expressing extreme shock and distress, does not condemn Israel.

The United States led the move to water down the text of the statement, with the US ambassador to the UN describing the bombing as the tragic consequence of an unavoidable accident.

Israel has announced that it is suspending its air strikes over Lebanon for the next 48 hours, and is also suggesting for the first time that it will allow a 24-hour safe passage for civilians in the south to leave.

But since the Qana bombing, Israel's Defence Minister Amir Peretz has also said that Israel plans another two weeks of military assaults in its battle with Hezbollah.

More on the diplomacy surrounding the attacks in a moment, but first to Qana itself.

(Sound of man yelling, woman yelling and crying)

JIM MUIR: "My three children," she shouts, "my three children, oh God, my three children."

(Sound of man sobbing, colleague asking "are you okay?")

JIM MUIR: That's a Red Cross worker, rescue worker, sitting here in the sunshine just sobbing, he's so overcome with emotion here.

ELEANOR HALL: The BBC's Jim Muir arriving on the scene of the Israeli air strike.

Journalist Nicholas Blanford, who's in southern Lebanon for the London Times was also in Qana a short time after the attacks, and he spoke to our reporter Karen Barlow about what he saw.

NICHOLAS BLANFORD: Qana was very heavily hit, with multiple air strikes last night, in the early hours of the morning, and one house that had two extended families numbering about 53 people who were sheltering in the basement and received a direct hit.

Eight of them survived and have been taken to hospital in Tyre, which is about 10 minutes' drive away from Qana. The remaining people in the basement were all killed, and they've been pulling out the bodies all morning.

KAREN BARLOW: What percentage of the casualties are children?

NICHOLAS BLANFORD: The vast majority were children that I saw, there were two adults that they'd just pulled out when I arrived, and then they were pulling out another body after every 10 minutes or so, and all but one were children. So I saw about eight children being pulled out.

There are still many bodies under the rubble, because the house that they were in was partially destroyed. There's a huge crater beside the house, which I think was part of the house itself, which is basically gone, and the other half of the house is leaning at a very precarious angle.

So it's been quite difficult for rescue workers to get underneath the slightly fallen structure of the building, to get into what was the basement and retrieve the dead from under this pile of dirt and rubble.

KAREN BARLOW: Is it known why a high proportion of the dead are children?

NICHOLAS BLANFORD: Well, these were extended families, and typically the Shia families in south Lebanon tend to have large numbers of children. It's quite common to find a household with as many as 15 children, you know, with the two parents, 15 kids, and this was an extended family as well, so there have been lots of cousins and uncles and aunts and nephews and nieces.

KAREN BARLOW: What sort of damage has been done to the entire village itself?

NICHOLAS BLANFORD: Well, Qana has been quite heavily hit throughout this entire operation. I've been driving through it over the past week on several occasions, and almost every time I come through there's more destruction.

Inside, the Israelis have been dropping these precision-guided missiles, very big bombs, which take out an entire house with one go. There's been a lot of shelling as well on the outskirts of the village.

So, yeah, I mean, all the villages down south the Litani River, so in the heart of south Lebanon, have been very heavily hit, but Qana particularly so.

KAREN BARLOW: Are most of the weapons fired from the air, over this particular village?

NICHOLAS BLANFORD: Yes, well the damage that's been done, the bulk of the damage is from Israeli jets dropping these massive bombs. They tend to drop them two at a time, so quite often you'll hear this "bang, bang", and that generally signals that another three of four storey building has just been blown up.

KAREN BARLOW: Is Qana a known Hezbollah hideout?

NICHOLAS BLANFORD: Not more than any other village really. Hezbollah has a high level of support throughout this area, these predominantly Shia Muslim villages.

Qana … what has happened today of course has a very strong resonance with the Lebanese, because Qana was the scene of another massacre 10 years ago, when the Israelis launched another operation indeed to try and crush Hezbollah fighters in south Lebanon, and they shelled a UN base in Qana, not far from where this house was destroyed yesterday, and there were 800 refugees sheltering inside the UN base, and over 100 of them were killed.


http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2006/s1701754.htm



This is just wrong!!!

S3nd K3ys wrote:

I repeatedly ignore what others are saying...


naaa..he didn t really say that.I just corrected him.. Wink
S3nd K3ys
felisleo wrote:
blah blah blah


I guess the 150+ rockets fired from that small villiage into civilian targets in Israel proves it was occupied by the terrorists. Why do you ignore facts? Rolling Eyes

You must have also IGNORED the many MANY apologies and regret shown by the Israelis EVERY TIME CIVILIANS ARE KILLED.

But you didn't miss the regret or apologies from hesbollah, did you? Do you know why? Because they didn't apologize. They're not sorry for the deaths of ANY civilians. In fact, they WANT civilians to die.
S3nd K3ys
tadssa wrote:

- S3 say : "How do you stop killers who hide behind old women and babies to fight?"
i say : no prove that there was fighters there ! and israel has already showed how !! she is to kill all the 3,874,050 in lebanon


Here.
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,19960056-5006301,00.html

Now it's your turn to prove they're not. Laughing Laughing Laughing
geyikkutuphanesi
Israel again killed 37 more children and all dead people's number are over 60 only for today. Total 750 civil death in 20 days. Most of them are children. What do u think? Still Measured?
Helios
K3ys, this isn't something he can prove. This is something he'll probably deny.
If you ask me...
S3nd K3ys
Helios wrote:
K3ys, this isn't something he can prove. This is something he'll probably deny.
If you ask me...


I know, helios. I know.

I just had to give him the chance to prove himself.

You see, I know there are two sides to this affair, but those condemning Israel without condemning Lebanon, hesbollah, Iran and Syria (i.e. TERRORISTS), only see one side and will never admit that the terrorists are worst than the Israelis.

I've seen tears in the eyes of Israeli soldiers when children in Lebanon are killed.

I have yet to see a tear shed for children by the terrorists. They want the children to die, it makes them look like the good guys.
Helios
To be specific, the media makes them look like good guys Razz
IMO this fight ended before it started.
Now it's just the bonus round for the press.

Anyway, won't waste my time here.
I still have some bad guys to catch Very Happy
S3nd K3ys
Helios wrote:
To be specific, the media makes them look like good guys Razz
IMO this fight ended before it started.
Now it's just the bonus round for the press.

Anyway, won't waste my time here.
I still have some bad guys to catch Very Happy


How about some headlines based on reallity for a change. I would suggest:

"Hezbolla targets women and children with rockets aimed at residential areas in Israelli cities"

or

"Qana - Staged Extremist Propaganda"

or


"How to Kill Women and Children and Blame it on Israel".
tadssa
Pleeeeaaaaase !!!!!!!!

Nohing can justify killing children !! NO THING CAN JUSTIFY KILLING CHILDREN ! what happend in qana need no comments your just talking , do u have children ?? i didn't say hizbullah or israel , but nothing justify killing children ,women , all civils!!! they have the right to live just like you me , your mother and children , do u understand ?? no?
S3nd K3ys
tadssa wrote:
nothing can justify killing children !! nothing can justify killing children nothing can justify killing children !! nothing can justify killing children
what happend in qana need no comments your just talking , do u have children ?? i didn't say hizbullah or israel , but nothing justify killing children ,women , all civils!!! they have the right to live just like you me , your mother and children , do u understand ?? no?


tadssa, you asked me for proof. There is your proof. Why do you defend those who are responsible for the killing of children? Why do you defend those who do not care about the lives of children?

Yes, I have two children. 1 and 3. It sickens me to no end seeing the pictures of dead/wounded children.

But I know who is trying to save them and who is trying to use them for a shield! Do You!?!?!?

Too bad you falsify your claim by defending those responsible for their deaths. Twisted Evil

And how do you reply to this?

S3nd K3ys wrote:
Helios wrote:
To be specific, the media makes them look like good guys Razz
IMO this fight ended before it started.
Now it's just the bonus round for the press.

Anyway, won't waste my time here.
I still have some bad guys to catch Very Happy


How about some headlines based on reallity for a change. I would suggest:

"Hezbolla targets women and children with rockets aimed at residential areas in Israelli cities"

or

"Qana - Staged Extremist Propaganda"

or


"How to Kill Women and Children and Blame it on Israel".


Will you CONTINUE to ignore facts??
tadssa
why do u call this pic proof ???? i just wonder !!!
so how can you justify all muslims ncluding qana habitant are still supporting huzbollah , if they hide between them?
we can't belive all what we get via news paper just like this post of "anticheat" : http://www.frihost.com/forums/vt-45997.html
rwojick
Isn't it amazing how the LOSERS can always find a new topic?

The big topic has been Iraq. You know, the war the US and Rumsfeld started with NO EVIDENCE!?!

Our Country was founded on the new idea that an accused man was innocent until proven guilty and then we accuse Hussein, he denies our accusation, and then we go in and bomb Bagdahd on the lie that "we will bring the evidence next week".

Middle east? Same cow crap. One Country starts bombing over the border and declaring "he did it".

Why not compare the WRITINGS of the two wars before they started. Our forefathers WROTE out a system and it begins with a WRITTEN declaration of an offense by the Plaintiff.

Our forefathers could write out the entire system with a quill pen, but now, since "women have been helping" and in the "information age" we have no as in NONE written accusations to review whiel we endure the never ending news casts of all the killing because, as every young mohter learns whenever they break up a fight-HE STARTED IT!
S3nd K3ys
You're still in denial.

Here is more proof. I will wait patiently for you to prove your point as well. Mkaythks.

http://www.int.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=3&art_id=qw1153470601151B253

Quote:
London - The leader of the world's Anglicans said on Friday that Hezbollah was using Lebanon as a human shield but questioned how successful Israel's air attacks were in defeating its enemy.


http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L21451475.htm

Quote:
LONDON, July 21 (Reuters) - The leader of the world's Anglicans said on Friday that Hizbollah was using Lebanon as a human shield but questioned how successful Israel's air attacks were in defeating its enemy.



http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,19955774-5007220,00.html
Quote:

THIS is the picture that damns Hezbollah. It is one of several, smuggled from behind Lebanon's battle lines, showing that Hezbollah is waging war amid suburbia.

The images, obtained exclusively by the Sunday Herald Sun, show Hezbollah using high-density residential areas as launch pads for rockets and heavy-calibre weapons.

Dressed in civilian clothing so they can quickly disappear, the militants carrying automatic assault rifles and ride in on trucks mounted with cannon.

The photographs, from the Christian area of Wadi Chahrour in the east of Beirut, were taken by a visiting journalist and smuggled out by a friend.



http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1153292030858&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

Quote:
IDF: 150 rockets fired from Qana at Israeli cities

Some 150 rockets were fired from the Lebanese village of Qana over the past 20 days, Air Force Chief of Staff Brig.-Gen. Amir Eshel said on Sunday evening.

Speaking to reporters, Eshel added that Hizbullah rocket launchers were hidden in civilian buildings in the village. He proceeded to show video footage of rocket launchers being driven into the village following launches.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1828153,00.html

Quote:
But last night he had harsh words for Hizbullah as well, rebuking the Shi'ite group for cravenly using civilians as human shields. "Hizbullah must stop this cowardly blending ... among women and children," Mr Egeland said.


There's more.

Lots more.

I'll be waiting for your proof. Wink
The Conspirator
S3nd K3ys wrote:
The Conspirator wrote:

S3: I apologise for calling you stupid, that is no reason to intentionally insult some one in serous debate.
Stop trying to spread hatred and bigotry, Islam is the same as Christianity and Judaism, in fact its better. Your problem is you judge all Muslims by a small minority (relatively speaking). Don't judge the whole, Judge each person deviously no matter if they are Christan, Jewish, Muslim, Atheist, Buddhist, Satanist or anything else.

To every one. Goggle is ****! Stop pulling random site out of google that support your beliefs. None of them are objective, none of them are accurate. To find an objective accurate site on google you would have to go through thousands of sites.


1) It's impossible to have a serious debate with you, you repeatedly ignore what others are saying.

2) Islam is NOT the same as Christianity. If all religions were the same, there would not be a war in the ME right now. Rolling Eyes

3) You say Islam is "in fact better" then you go on to say "Your problem is you judge" and "Don't Judge" when you clearly JUDGED Islam vs other religions. You're a damn hypocryte.

4) Now you're trying to discredit Google? That's like discrediting the entire internet. That's retarded. Nobody is allowed to get info from google any more! Laughing Laughing Laughing


1. I don't ignore what people are saying, you do. I say something reasonable and logical, you call me ignorant, I give reasonable and logical reason for by beliefs, you call me ignorant. I say "this war makes Israel look bad in the eyes of the Palestinian and Arab people thus making hebolla look like hero's for fighting Isreal thus more people join Hesbolla thus Hesbolla gets bigger and stronger thus the situation gets worse" you come back with "Israel will kill them all, you are ignorant" Are you 12? Cause thats how 12 year olds argue. You don't give a logical reasonable rebuttal, you come back with rhetoric and insults ignoring what I've said. This is a serous topic about a serous situation, something that should be debated maturely, not like a 12 year old. You notice how I don't lob insults at people and when I do, I apologise for it? Like an adult.

2. No they are not literately the same, there distinct differences but if you look at then side by side you will find that Christianity, Judaism and Islam are the same.

3. The religion, not the people. Christianity at the bottom, than Islam, Judaism and so on. (concerning all modern religions)

4. Do a Google search for anything, you will find site that support are against anything. Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Shadow government, aliens anything. You find site for and against them, 90% of which are have some braces in myths, misconceptions and even lies. (I'm not saying 90% of the site out there lie, people lie and people repeat it over and over and over again thinking its true) To fine an accurate site is like finding a needle in a haystack.
S3nd K3ys
The Conspirator wrote:
S3nd K3ys wrote:
The Conspirator wrote:

S3: I apologise for calling you stupid, that is no reason to intentionally insult some one in serous debate.
Stop trying to spread hatred and bigotry, Islam is the same as Christianity and Judaism, in fact its better. Your problem is you judge all Muslims by a small minority (relatively speaking). Don't judge the whole, Judge each person deviously no matter if they are Christan, Jewish, Muslim, Atheist, Buddhist, Satanist or anything else.

To every one. Goggle is ****! Stop pulling random site out of google that support your beliefs. None of them are objective, none of them are accurate. To find an objective accurate site on google you would have to go through thousands of sites.


1) It's impossible to have a serious debate with you, you repeatedly ignore what others are saying.

2) Islam is NOT the same as Christianity. If all religions were the same, there would not be a war in the ME right now. Rolling Eyes

3) You say Islam is "in fact better" then you go on to say "Your problem is you judge" and "Don't Judge" when you clearly JUDGED Islam vs other religions. You're a damn hypocryte.

4) Now you're trying to discredit Google? That's like discrediting the entire internet. That's retarded. Nobody is allowed to get info from google any more! Laughing Laughing Laughing


1. I don't ignore what people are saying, you do. I say something reasonable and logical, you call me ignorant, I give reasonable and logical reason for by beliefs, you call me ignorant. I say "this war makes Israel look bad in the eyes of the Palestinian and Arab people thus making hebolla look like hero's for fighting Isreal thus more people join Hesbolla thus Hesbolla gets bigger and stronger thus the situation gets worse" you come back with "Israel will kill them all, you are ignorant" Are you 12? Cause thats how 12 year olds argue. You don't give a logical reasonable rebuttal, you come back with rhetoric and insults ignoring what I've said. This is a serous topic about a serous situation, something that should be debated maturely, not like a 12 year old. You notice how I don't lob insults at people and when I do, I apologise for it? Like an adult.

2. No they are not literately the same, there distinct differences but if you look at then side by side you will find that Christianity, Judaism and Islam are the same.

3. The religion, not the people. Christianity at the bottom, than Islam, Judaism and so on. (concerning all modern religions)

4. Do a Google search for anything, you will find site that support are against anything. Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Shadow government, aliens anything. You find site for and against them, 90% of which are have some braces in myths, misconceptions and even lies. (I'm not saying 90% of the site out there lie, people lie and people repeat it over and over and over again thinking its true) To fine an accurate site is like finding a needle in a haystack.


1) No longer worth my time. Reply from you that = "reasonable and logical" not found.
2) Backpeddling, Laughing
3) Your opinion only.
4) You say you can find things both FOR and AGAINST any subject at Google, yet you say not to use it because it's bad information????

Um, you're not even reading your OWN posts... That's just sad.
horseatingweeds
S3nd K3ys wrote:

"How to Kill Women and Children and Blame it on Israel".[/b]


A step-by-step how-to guide.
S3nd K3ys
LoL!

Terrorist TV station hacked! Laughing

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3283866,00.html wrote:
Additionally, Hizbullah and al-Manar internet sites also received "special treatment" by Israeli technical specialists, and several were erased from the internet.
S3nd K3ys
The cease fire is over.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert wrote:
"Quite a few days of fighting are still before us,"

"We will stop the war when the (rocket) threat is removed..., our captive soldiers return home in peace, and you are able to live in safety and security."

"We are paying a very precious and almost unbearable price in terms of loss of life, major damage to public and private property and tranquility -- and we're not prepared to give up our right to live perfectly ordinary lives, which are not subject to terrorism and hate and fanaticism," Olmert said.


No need to allow the terrorists time to regroup. Israel will (hopefully) finish the job soon and remove this cancer from the ME.
The Conspirator
S3nd K3ys wrote:
1) No longer worth my time. Reply from you that = "reasonable and logical" not found.

Thats all you have to say? The same old shit? Could you try using you brain?

[quteo]2) Backpeddling, Laughing[/quote]
No, I'm not.

Quote:
3) Your opinion only.

Did I say it was an absolute fact?

Quote:
4) You say you can find things both FOR and AGAINST any subject at Google, yet you say not to use it because it's bad information????

Read what I said.
You'll find sites saying that Christianity if good and absolutely right. You'll find site that say Christianity is most evil religion in history and Christens are all evil.
You'll find the same thing for anything and they will always show some "evidence" for there arguments.

Quote:
Um, you're not even reading your OWN posts... That's just sad.

Read what I say!!
horseatingweeds
con wrote:
Read what I say!!


Seriously con, you need to take that advice. I would suggest reevaluating your time spent on frihost. Before you make a reply spend some more time digesting everything. Try to be a little more thorough. Everything you suggest S3 of doing you do yourself and is the reason I have lost patience with you.

Maybe even start fresh. Go back to about page 11 or 12 and give it a good rundown. I think this will clear up a lot of your questions.
nopaniers
You should try to portray things a little more honestly, SendKeys.

Quote:
London - The leader of the world's Anglicans said on Friday that Hezbollah was using Lebanon as a human shield...


Which is not a good summary of the interview. The point of Rowan William was that the US and UK are out of step with morality and should support a ceasefire.

Archbishop of Canterbury wrote:
We really have to ask whether some Western governments are catching up with the consciences of their own people... The major players in this at the moment who are not supporting a ceasefire - our own government and the United States government - maybe perhaps have to reckon with a rising level of public despair and dismay at the spiral continuing, and I hope very much that they will bring their influence to bear in moving towards a ceasefire.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/5202216.stm

Quote:
THIS is the picture that damns Hezbollah.


That is a picture of an anti-aircraft gun in Beirut. The only reason why this defensive weapon would be any use at all would be if Israel was trying to bomb the residential areas of the city (which they obviously shouldn't be).

Quote:
IDF: 150 rockets fired from Qana at Israeli cities


Oh yes, the Jerusalem post, what an unbiased source reporting almost word for word the propoganda spoon fed them by the IDF. Meanwhile the Israelis killed over 50 civilians there: women and innocent children.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1828153,00.html

Quote:
... Mr Egeland said.


Well it's good you agree with Mr Egeland. Perhaps you agree with him The situation in Lebanon is a violation of humanitarian law, or maybe that Israeli bombing is creating a "generation of hatred".
The Conspirator
horseatingweeds wrote:
con wrote:
Read what I say!!


Seriously con, you need to take that advice. I would suggest reevaluating your time spent on frihost. Before you make a reply spend some more time digesting everything. Try to be a little more thorough. Everything you suggest S3 of doing you do yourself and is the reason I have lost patience with you.

Maybe even start fresh. Go back to about page 11 or 12 and give it a good rundown. I think this will clear up a lot of your questions.


Me? Now I haven't read every post (I don't come back for 24 hour's and there 40 new posts in this topic, I'm not going to read every one of them but the one I reply to I do read) but I know what the ones I reply to say, I read those. Have you read his? Heres the basically what he says "Your wrong, they are going kill them all, your an idiot, Israels not deliberately killing those to deliberately targets to kill, terrorists, terrorists, terrorists, Israel good, Muslims bad, Israel good Muslims bad!"
Thats the basics of what he says. Read them, you'll see it.
horseatingweeds
I do read them, I come back after 24 hours and read all the new posts. I urge you to go back and read them all. I think you will be surprised.
HoboPelican
horseatingweeds wrote:
I do read them, I come back after 24 hours and read all the new posts. I urge you to go back and read them all. I think you will be surprised.


Actually, there isn't much to read in the "Israel is always right" posts recently. You can pretty much ignore all of SendKeys posts since they typically are quotes from highly biased sources or taken out of context. If he writes more than 5 lines of his own it's unusual. If he writes more than 5 lines that isn't an insult or chortling over more deaths it's a miracle.

Really, there are no surprises to be found in this thread, Horseatingweeds.
S3nd K3ys
The Conspirator wrote:
horseatingweeds wrote:
con wrote:
Read what I say!!


Seriously con, you need to take that advice. I would suggest reevaluating your time spent on frihost. Before you make a reply spend some more time digesting everything. Try to be a little more thorough. Everything you suggest S3 of doing you do yourself and is the reason I have lost patience with you.

Maybe even start fresh. Go back to about page 11 or 12 and give it a good rundown. I think this will clear up a lot of your questions.


Me? Now I haven't read every post (I don't come back for 24 hour's and there 40 new posts in this topic, I'm not going to read every one of them but the one I reply to I do read) but I know what the ones I reply to say, I read those. Have you read his? Heres the basically what he says "Your wrong, they are going kill them all, your an idiot, Israels not deliberately killing those to deliberately targets to kill, terrorists, terrorists, terrorists, Israel good, Muslims bad, Israel good Muslims bad!"
Thats the basics of what he says. Read them, you'll see it.


Whoaaa there cowboy...

I don't recall calling you an idiot. Rolling Eyes But if I did, even though it was warrented, it was wrong and I'm sorry. I should have used "ignornat".

HoboPelican wrote:
"Israel is always right"


That's not it at all. But, just like Bush, we're too busy defending them against the massive barrage of lies used to try and discredit them, that there's no time to deal with the issues they have. If you guys would be honest and see both sides, we could more easily deal with the issues that are issues.

:shrug:
S3nd K3ys
Looks like the UN better step up the pace if they want Israel out of Lebanon.

Fox News wrote:
Israeli Troops to Occupy Lebanese Territory Until Multinational Force Deployment


I'm telling you, Israel isn't going to stop until the threat of rocket attacks from Lebanon are GONE.

Attn: Lebanese people and government and anyone else interested in peace; Disarm Hesbollah Wink

Fox News wrote:
"We want to avoid a situation where we essentially put a Band-Aid on something," Burns said. "We have to a have view of a sustainable cease-fire. We have to make sure Hezbollah is not allowed to be in a position to strike again."

The fighting was triggered by Hezbollah's cross-border raid from Lebanon into Israel and the capture of two Israeli soldiers.

President Bush has said Israel has a right to defend itself and that "every nation must defend herself against terrorist attacks and the killing of innocent life."

Burns did not deviate from that position. "The United States believes, and all countries believe, that Israel has a right to self-defense. Israel was attacked two weeks ago. It was Hezbollah who started this and crossed the blue-line," he said.
S3nd K3ys
The (not so) funny thing about current warfare is the immediate news reports of events. We're being subjected to events that can be misleading without proper context. The bad part about this is the terrorists uncanny ability to use this to their advantage. The good part about this is that the truth will eventually come out.

http://www.strategypage.com/qnd/israel/articles/20060731.aspx wrote:
The Phony War
July 31, 2006: The Hizbollah tactic of firing rockets from residential areas, and forcing civilians to stick around when the rockets are fired, has paid off. One rocket launching site in a large building in southern Lebanon, for which Israel released video of rockets being launched, before bombing the building, turned out to contain over fifty women and children. The civilians know that the Israelis bomb any place where rockets are fired from, but Hizbollah gunmen will force the civilians to stay. This has caused many Lebanese, even Shia in the south, to turn against Hizbollah. Some journalists have even been able to get out of Lebanon with pictures of this, but most of the world media prefers to call Israeli response to Hizbollah attacks a war crime and leave it at that. This is going to be one of those situations where, down the road, historians are going to wonder just what the world was thinking during all this.

...

The Israelis keep civilian casualties down by having better bomb shelters, using them more effectively and evacuating many of the more exposed towns in northern Israel. Since Israel is a democracy, the government has to do all it can to minimize its civilian casualties. Hizbollah is not a democracy, but a religious dictatorship (trying to bring that form of government to Lebanon, and then the world.) Hizbollah considers itself on a mission from God, and within its rights to kill anyone, and do anything, to complete its mission. Thus the policy of getting the maximum number of Lebanese civilians killed. European and Moslem media have taken the bait, and are calling Israeli responses, to Hizbollah attacks, "war crimes."

...

Hizbollah has an edge, because most of the Moslem and European media will automatically side with them against Israel. That said, the Israeli strategy appears to be the destruction of people and material that Hizbollah will have the most difficulty replacing, and weakening Hizbollah enough so that the majority of Lebanese, and the Lebanese government, can regain control of southern Lebanon (and Hizbollah controlled Beirut neighborhoods), that Hizbollah has controlled for decades.

adredwood
While i admit i havent read more than a small portion of the posts on this topic, they seem to be predominantly concerned with Hezbollah's reaction to Israel's attack, without allowing any background commentary to enter the discussion. Surely the acts of a desparate people using their own civilians as a shield should be seen as just that - a reaction to decades of Israeli oppression.

Focusing on one part of the conflict, which has been immoral and vicious on both sides but is clearly caused by the brutality of successive Israeli governments is an extremely selective use of factual information (which abounds for any point you choose to make on the internet).

I would like to quote from a piece by Noam Chomsky on the situation, as he explains more lucidly and factually than i can; the piece is from www.zmag.org and for reasons of space i have excerpted only a fraction, so i recommend you read the whole article here - http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=107&ItemID=10663

"The latest phase began on June 24, when the Israeli army kidnapped two civilians, a doctor and his brother, from their home in Gaza. They were "detained" according to brief notes in the British press. The U.S. media mostly preferred silence. They will presumably join the 9,000 other Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails, 1,000 reportedly in prison without charges, hence kidnapped -- as were many of the rest, in that they were sentenced by Israeli courts, which are a disgrace, harshly condemned by legal commentators in Israel.

...The next day, June 25, Palestinians kidnapped an Israeli soldier just across the border from Gaza. That did happen, very definitely. Every literate reader also knows the name of corporal Gilad Shalit, and wants him released. The nameless kidnapped Gaza civilians are ignored; international law, while rightly insisting that captured soldiers be treated humanely, absolutely prohibits the extrajudicial seizure of civilians. Israel responded by "bombing and shelling, darkening and destroying, imposing a siege and kidnapping like the worst of terrorists and nobody breaks the silence to ask, what the hell for, and according to what right?" as the fine Israeli journalist Gideon Levy wrote, adding that "[a] state that takes such steps is no longer distinguishable from a terror organization." Israel also kidnapped a large part of the Palestinian government, destroyed most of the Gaza electrical and water systems, and committed numerous other crimes.

...The next act in this hideous drama opened on July 12, when Hezbollah launched a raid in which it captured two Israeli soldiers and killed several others, leading to an all-out Israeli attack, killing hundreds and destroying much of what Lebanon has painfully reconstructed from the wreckage of its civil wars and the Israeli invasions."

Andy - My apologies for such a long quote, but i hope this gives an amount of background to the issues in hand. There are those who would question the validity of this source, but consider this: the US gives billions of dollars of aid to Israel in order to maintain their proxy hold on the middle-east region, and in this they are willingly aided by a subservient US media. So who has the most to gain from spinning the events of our times - an activist MIT professor or the US government/ mainstream press?

So please, a constructive debate on foreign policy not 'i said/you said' ad infinitum, else we're all just fiddling while Beirut burns.

Andy
S3nd K3ys
Well, it seems the truth is coming out faster than I thought.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3284514,00.html#n

Quote:
Lebanese website blames Hizbullah for Qana deaths

Anti-Syrian elements in Lebanon openly point finger at Hizbullah as guilty of killing of dozens of civilians in order to curtail plans for disarming group. 'Hizbullah has placed rocket launcher on building's roof and brought invalid children inside in bid to provoke Israeli response,' they write

...


Knowing full well that Israel will not hesitate to bombard civilian targets, Hizbullah gunmen placed a rocket launcher on the roof in Qana and brought disabled children inside, in a bid to provoke a response by the Israeli Air Force. In this way, they were planning to take advantage of the death of innocents and curtail the negotiation initiative," the site stated.


So again I will ask: how do you stop killers who hide behind children?
horseatingweeds
You have to kill the children.....
S3nd K3ys
horseatingweeds wrote:
You have to kill the children.....


You don't have to kill the children. I'm sure there will be casualties, but you damn sure can't just let them go on killing. Especially when you find out that the whole thing was staged...

http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Diplomacy/8997.htm

Quote:

Hezbollywood? Evidence mounts that Qana collapse and deaths were staged
By Reuven Koret July 31, 2006

It was to be a perfect Hollywood ending for Hezbollah. Just as the Israeli bombing of the village of Qana in 1996 brought a premature end to Israel's Operation "Grapes of Wrath," so too a sequel of Qana II could change, once and for all, the direction of Israel's current summer blockbuster, "Change of Direction." Ten years ago, world condemnation of an errant Israeli shell that hit a civilian compound forced then-PM Shimon Peres to curtail the offensive against terror bases.

...


On the morning of July 30, according to the IDF, the air force came in three waves. In the first, between midnight and one in the morning, there was a strike at or near the building that eventually collapsed.

Brent Sadler of CNN reports that the Israeli ordnance did not even hit the building but landed "20 or 30 meters" from the structure.

There was a second strike at other targets far from the collapse building several hours later, and a third strike at around 7:30 in the morning. There too the nearest hit was some 460 meters away, according to the IDF. But first reports of a building collapse came only around 8 am.

Thus there was an unexplained 7 to 8 hour gap between the time of the helicopter strike and the building collapse. Brigadier General Amir Eshel, Head of the Air Force Headquarters, in a press briefing, told journalists that "the attack on the structure in the Qana village took place between midnight and one in the morning. The gap between the timing of the collapse of the building and the time of the strike on it is unclear."

Gen. Eshel appeared genuinely mystified by the gap in time. He "I'm saying this very carefully, because at this time I don't have a clue as to what the explanation could be for this gap," he added.

The army's only explanation was that somehow there was unexploded Hezbollah ordnance in the building that only detonated much later.

"It could be that inside the building, things that could eventually cause an explosion were being housed, things that we could not blow up in the attack, and maybe remained there, Brigadier General Eshel said.

...

While Hezbollah and its apologists have been claiming that civilians could not freely flee the scene due to Israeli destruction of bridges and roads, the journalists and rescue teams from nearby Tyre had no problem getting there.

...



There was little blood, CNN's Wedeman noted: all the victims, he concluded, appeared to have died while as they were sleeping -- sleeping, apparently, through thunderous Israeli air attacks. Rescue workers equipped with cameras were removing the bodies from the same opening in the collapsed structure. Journalists were not allowed near the collapsed building.
S3nd K3ys
Here's a break down of the images coming from Qana and the (supposed) casualties there.

http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/07/milking-it.html

It tells quite a different story.
nopaniers
Killing children is never justified.
horseatingweeds
nopaniers wrote:
Killing children is never justified.


Thats not the question is it?

You would think that if children where being killed by the 30’s and 60’s there would be plenty of shocking photo opportunities…..

Regardless, civilian casualties are a very important part of Hes’ main battle tactic. He knows he can’t turn Israel back with his 3k-4k men. Also, putting weapons batteries in civilian building is not just a way to protect them. He know that he has given Israel no choice but to try shooting around the innocent in order to destroy the weapons.

So how does this tactic work? First, Hes rotates his weapon through civilian areas, firing them and provoking Israel. Israel fires at the weapon, destroys it and kills civilians. Reuters take photos, the world sees and puts additional pressure on Israel to stop.

Now why the hell do these civilians put up with this? Why the hell are they not in shelters AWAY from the weapons? I have two conclusions.

1. Amongst the uneducated suburbanites Hes is seen not only as a very threatening group with whom it is never a good idea to seem not totally dedicated to his cause but also as a ‘protector’. “Let us put this missile battery in your back yard in order to protect you from the evil Israel. Stay in your home and God will protect you.”
2. “Stay here next to these weapons or be killed for you lack of faith and dedication!!!”

So what can Israel do? Not much. She is backed in a corner. We just saw what happens if she backs down. A 48 hour sees fire. How does Hes react? Fires missiles. This tells me that Hes does not have good control or communication with his people. What the tactics call for is for Hes to demonstrate his willingness to see reason until that last minute using the 48 hours to regroup and rearm, possibly organizing a decisive blow rather than wasting hi $$$ missiles in Israeli wilderness.
S3nd K3ys
horseatingweeds wrote:

Thats not the question is it?


That doesn't matter.

nopaniers wrote:
Killing children is never justified.


That's why Israel tries not to kill children, and hesbollah hides behind them and targets them.

Now if nopaniers had been paying attention, he'd have seen the other posts showing that hesbollah is likely directly responsible and definately indirectly responsible for the deaths of almost all civilians in Lebanon and Israel.

Or perhaps he WAS paying attention but chose to ignore it. Idea
bangala
S3nd K3ys wrote:
LoL!

Terrorist TV station hacked! Laughing

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3283866,00.html wrote:
Additionally, Hizbullah and al-Manar internet sites also received "special treatment" by Israeli technical specialists, and several were erased from the internet.

From the same Israeli source and after 3 weeks of bombing, "the IDF fails to stop Hizballah's Al Manar TV station" even for minutes! I wonder how would they eliminate Hizballa itself !
bangala
S3nd K3ys wrote:
LoL!

Terrorist TV station hacked! Laughing

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3283866,00.html wrote:
Additionally, Hizbullah and al-Manar internet sites also received "special treatment" by Israeli technical specialists, and several were erased from the internet.

BTW, Frrom the same Israeli source, the database of the Israeli cell phone operater, Orange, was hacked and text messages were sent to Israelis living in the north. This was done a week ago!
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3281951,00.html
S3nd K3ys
bangala wrote:
S3nd K3ys wrote:
LoL!

Terrorist TV station hacked! Laughing

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3283866,00.html wrote:
Additionally, Hizbullah and al-Manar internet sites also received "special treatment" by Israeli technical specialists, and several were erased from the internet.

From the same Israeli source and after 3 weeks of bombing, "the IDF fails to stop Hizballah's Al Manar TV station" even for minutes! I wonder how would they eliminate Hizballa itself !



You're seeing it every night on the news.





























/waits for the obligitory "yeah, k3ys, they're killing babies!" then refers them to a few posts above this one

Oh, and speaking of refusal to admit defeat... Laughing Laughing Laughing
bangala
horseatingweeds wrote:
nopaniers wrote:
Killing children is never justified.


Thats not the question is it?

You would think that if children where being killed by the 30’s and 60’s there would be plenty of shocking photo opportunities…..

Regardless, civilian casualties are a very important part of Hes’ main battle tactic.

On the contrary, civilian casualties are a very important part of Israel's main battle tactic. Why?
Because they realized that they cannot destroy Hizballah and the only way is to put pressure on it by increasing civilian casualities so that the public turns against it. Israelis have said it to Lebanese people and government in various ways: destroy Hizballah or we'll make you all suffer and pay for it. This policy, however, is backfiring, Lebanese people and their government are now all united and backing Hizballah.
horseatingweeds wrote:
Now why the hell do these civilians put up with this? Why the hell are they not in shelters AWAY from the weapons?

Let's take Qana as an example:
This building was a shelter for children and handicapped and the UN had requested Israel for a 72 hrs halt of air raids to allow for evacuating them and others, Israel had rejected the UN request and immediately attacked that shelter! That's why the whole world condemened this act. Hard to believe that such crimes could be carried out by a state in the 21st century, but that's the sad reality!
S3nd K3ys
bangala wrote:

Let's take Qana as an example:


Bad choice for an example... Laughing Laughing Laughing

Qana = old and busted hesbollywood style Wink
horseatingweeds
That is not logical. Killing civilians is not pressuring them to expel Hes. Ruining their infrastructure is. You are correct basically though. The only way to deal with Hes and his kind is to remove his support.

Why do you think the people where in that shelter? They were a missile shield. All two or three of them.....
tolgaozbek
run away.. Israel is defending itself!!

I wonder why everyone is so quiet about Israel.. Could it be because of Usa's support for their massacre? A bunch of Israeli is leading the world into the chaos or are they just "defending" themselves from poor handicapped children?

This is all about..
nopaniers
Quote:
Why do you think the people where in that shelter?

A bomb shelter of a large residential building is the natural place for civilians to go when they are being bombed.

If you are asking why civilians were still in their own town, the BBC reported:
BBC wrote:
However, with the number of civilian cars and convoys which have been bombed on the roads heading to Tyre, many residents were too scared to take the Israeli warnings or were unable to flee because they had no means of transport.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5228554.stm

And to S3ndKeys, you have completely lost it mate. Denial is only discrediting yourself.
horseatingweeds
Point being, they were likely a component in Hes’ tactics. Hes wasted no time implementing this tactic via photo.

It’s not logical for Israel to kill children and cripples. It’s not logical for Hes to protect them.

It is logical for Israel to bomb a target from which missiles were fired. It is logical for Hes to fire missiles from a position housing childress and cripples.

I’m by far no expert on the crisis. All I have is history books and the news, and oh yeah Frihost. But I can tell what is logical. Especially when it is fairly blatant.
CCFCExile
What are they doing!!!? Bombing kids, declearing a ceasefire then breaking it after an hour. Hezbollah arn't firing their rockets!

Israel are just bullies withh a big dad (USA) who stands by it's child!

Personnaly, I can't abide the horrible country.

The birth place of our Lord, the most holy of lands... Murderers!

No Justice!

Yes, Hezbollah stole two soldiers but Israel have been kidnapping civi's for years.

Do you think the Israelies will leave Lebannon when this is over? I don't think so if the Zionists get their way!
horseatingweeds
Wow CCFCExile, thanks for clogging our post and discrediting any contribution you may have otherwise attributed.
nopaniers
Quote:
It’s not logical for Israel to kill children and cripples.


True. Israel's tactics are not logical and will only bring about more hatred. Around 750 have died in attacks now, mostly civilians.

Don't complain that the results of Israeli actions are being photographed. Israel should not blame the messenger (the world's free press), but simply not bomb people in the first place.
S3nd K3ys
nopaniers wrote:
Quote:
It’s not logical for Israel to kill children and cripples.


True. Israel's tactics are not logical and will only bring about more hatred. Around 750 have died in attacks now, mostly civilians.

Don't complain that the results of Israeli actions are being photographed. Israel should not blame the messenger (the world's free press), but simply not bomb people in the first place.


So would you say that only 500 civilians have been killed in Lebanon? 600?

That's fantastic! Very Happy

Those numbers are awsome compared to what they USED to be. I remember my dad and oldest brother telling me about casualty rates in the big wars of their times, it was hundreds or thousands of civilians per target! Not LESS than one civilian per target!

I mean, Israel has hit over 1,000 hesbollah infrastructure targets including weapons storage facilities, command and control centers, vehicle repair facilities and 18 Hizballah financial centers which serve in the place of banks.

That's less than 1 civliian casualty for every target!

Man! Israel is doing a GREAT job at keeping casualty rates LOWER THAN I EVER HEARD OF. All while taking out a huge terrorist organization. Laughing Laughing Laughing

Not only that, but they're PROTECTING THEIR CIVILIANS from the thousands of rockets the terrorists are firing at the civilians in Israel!

http://commentary.threatswatch.org/2006/08/hizballah-is-on-the-ropes/

Quote:
Israel is providing a lesson on fighting the war on terror.

The mighty Hizballah, rightfully feared as the most lethally armed terrorist organization on the planet, is now on the ropes. Only their lifeline from Syria sustains them in the midst of devastating strikes from the Israeli Air Force. From the hundreds of rocket launchers in southern Lebanon to weapons depots and infrastructure all the way up the Bekaa Valley in Baalbek, Hizballah’s operational headquarters city, the IAF has exacted a heavy toll from Hizballah since the attack in Israel in which Hizballah terrorists killed eight IDF soldiers and abducted the two surviving.


And I think it's great that it's all being caught on film. Wink
sherby
i don't understand why usa supports israel all the time, they are giving them billions of dollars every year and all this modern weapons and planes,
why is that what do israel give them back , i won't be amazed if the usa support arab countries at least they've got the oil.
alkutob
After the second world war was finished the esparto ( winning countries ) decided to gratify Jewish of there assistance in the war .

They discussed the need of Jewish to have a home ( Own country ).

Canada , Oganda were the options to let Jewish people settle there ...

But Jewish people had their own territorial claims as their hostorical grasping in in Arabs land ( Palestine ).

Yes Jewish were kicked many times from the middle East countries since thousands of years because of their grasping dealing way with arabs and non arab nations , and because of their plots against the people who entertained them to live in between them .

Jewish people have a long hostorical stories in plots between nations all over the history .and because of this they were kicked and punished to leave the countries they were entertained in as a result of their deception .
Helios
sherby wrote:
i don't understand why usa supports israel all the time, they are giving them billions of dollars every year and all this modern weapons and planes,
why is that what do israel give them back , i won't be amazed if the usa support arab countries at least they've got the oil.


Israel is an important strategic point.

Won't be giving you any of my theories about US supporting Israel, because of the tense situation here at this discussion. But maybe later Wink
S3nd K3ys
Helios wrote:
sherby wrote:
i don't understand why usa supports israel all the time, they are giving them billions of dollars every year and all this modern weapons and planes,
why is that what do israel give them back , i won't be amazed if the usa support arab countries at least they've got the oil.


Israel is an important strategic point.

Won't be giving you any of my theories about US supporting Israel, because of the tense situation here at this discussion. But maybe later Wink


I'm sure there's many, but the most prominant are likely to do with strategic location, as you stated, as well as a highly significant religious aspect of the location. If I'm not mistaken, the US and Israel are the only two countries in the world based on religion. (Heard it on the radio months ago)
felisleo
adredwood wrote:
"The latest phase began on June 24, when the Israeli army kidnapped two civilians, a doctor and his brother, from their home in Gaza. They were "detained" according to brief notes in the British press. The U.S. media mostly preferred silence. They will presumably join the 9,000 other Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails, 1,000 reportedly in prison without charges, hence kidnapped -- as were many of the rest, in that they were sentenced by Israeli courts, which are a disgrace, harshly condemned by legal commentators in Israel.

...The next day, June 25, Palestinians kidnapped an Israeli soldier just across the border from Gaza. That did happen, very definitely. Every literate reader also knows the name of corporal Gilad Shalit, and wants him released. The nameless kidnapped Gaza civilians are ignored; international law, while rightly insisting that captured soldiers be treated humanely, absolutely prohibits the extrajudicial seizure of civilians. Israel responded by "bombing and shelling, darkening and destroying, imposing a siege and kidnapping like the worst of terrorists and nobody breaks the silence to ask, what the hell for, and according to what right?" as the fine Israeli journalist Gideon Levy wrote, adding that "[a] state that takes such steps is no longer distinguishable from a terror organization." Israel also kidnapped a large part of the Palestinian government, destroyed most of the Gaza electrical and water systems, and committed numerous other crimes.



So basically the war was started by israel.probably they planned the invasion long before these events.

Quote:

The Yesha Rabbinical Council announced in response to an IDF attack in Kfar Qanna that "according to Jewish law, during a time of battle and war, there is no such term as 'innocents' of the enemy."

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3283720,00.html

this is the sick thought of israil which pushed it to shoot those children.

s3.. wrote:

hesbollah is likely directly responsible and definately indirectly responsible for the deaths of almost all civilians in Lebanon and Israel.


yea..right..now you re blaming hesbollah for the death of those villagers?of course...it is hesbollah what unstabilizes me.it is hesbollah destroying lebanon ,invasing iraq ,invasin palestinia , prisoning thousands of them or kidnapping whoever they want..

by the way israel is not that brave either.they bombed the entire country and killed hundreds instead of going on land with its troops.for hunting one suspiciously existing hesbollah member they can bomb a whole city.hesbollah consists of a few hundred full-time militia power only..they don t have tanks or planes or any other heavy weapon.yet israel chose to bomb the entire country.the goal is certainly much more than hesbollah.the goal is to horass iran and syria which is a part of us pacifizing midle east plan.also hesbollah militans dont attack unless israel provokes.hesbollah exists because israel is killing the palestinians and invasing lebanon in every oppotunity they find.us supports israel massivly while it kills palestinians but iran s support for hesbollah is considered as "unacceptable" by them which is another stupid struggle.

s3.. wrote:

So would you say that only 500 civilians have been killed in Lebanon? 600?

That's fantastic!




israel is killing people ON A LAND THAT DOES NOT BELONG TO IT INCLUDING CHILDREN.
and this is your comment?

they don t have the right to kill one and they killed nearly a thousand plus destroyed the country .

Qana is accused to support hesbollah militia.


Quote:

Qana Massacre I
18 April, 1996

The Israeli Air force bombed and killed 106 Lebanese civilians (almost all either women, children or old men) who had taken refuge in a UN shelter in the village of QANA. A further 110 civilians were injured


Who were they gonna support ?israel?

PEOPLE ,TAKE YOUR BLIND GLASSES OFF
S3nd K3ys
felisleo wrote:
adredwood wrote:
"The latest phase began on June 24, when the Israeli army kidnapped two civilians, a doctor and his brother, from their home in Gaza. ...



So basically the war was started by israel.probably they planned the invasion long before these events.


No. Please pay attention.

adredwood wrote:
"The latest phase


...being the key phrase here.
Quote:

s3.. wrote:

hesbollah is likely directly responsible and definately indirectly responsible for the deaths of almost all civilians in Lebanon and Israel.


yea..right..now you re blaming hesbollah for the death of those villagers?


Absolutely! Hesbollah is mostly to blame for the deaths of EVERYONE who has been killed in the last few weeks because of this war, whcih, BTW, was most recently started when hesbollah came across internationally recognized international boundries, killed eight soldiers, kidnapped two soldiers, and started firing rockets into Israel.

Also, see my earlier posts regarding those pictures you posted. They've already been debunked, as has the entire Qana staging by hesbollah.
nopaniers
In more positive moves, it looks like there's slow progress on the diplomatic front. Perhaps this progress will last longer than Condi's which took the Israelis all of a few hours to ignore.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5240582.stm
horseatingweeds
That seems encouraging.

What do you all think of this?

It seems to me that there must be a significant breakdown of communication between Hesbullah’s people. Why would they have broken the sees fire so quickly? The best tactic for Hes would have been to use the time to regroup and organize for an actually decisive attack whilst attempting to negotiate. Offering negotiation would have brought him even more international sympathy and would have made his rag tag group of terrorists seem more credible as an organization with actual goals.
The Conspirator
horseatingweeds wrote:
That seems encouraging.

What do you all think of this?

It seems to me that there must be a significant breakdown of communication between Hesbullah’s people. Why would they have broken the sees fire so quickly? The best tactic for Hes would have been to use the time to regroup and organize for an actually decisive attack whilst attempting to negotiate. Offering negotiation would have brought him even more international sympathy and would have made his rag tag group of terrorists seem more credible as an organization with actual goals.

Cause Hebulla is a loosely organised militant group and as with any loosely organised group there is no strict power structure so if the leaders say something that doesn't mean the group will fallow.
Thats why there is no way of getting them to stop with diplomacy.
horseatingweeds
This still doesn’t explain why. The strength of a loosely organized system is redundancy. On a side note this is one of the strength the US army has displayed in the past. Regardless, the morons on the missile batteries should be following the same tactics. I wonder if they got in trouble.
The Conspirator
There are strength and weaknesses in loosely organised groups. There strength is there hard as hell to kill, even if you convince the leaders to have a cease fire, end to the fighting or to serenader, theres no guaranty the members will fallow but thats also a weakness, at any point all one of them has to do is say "No! were going to keep this up." and others will fallow. Depending on where the person is in the ranks of the organisation this could effect the whole group or a small fraction.
tadssa
After iraq ! hizbullh, iran, and syria are the last stone in usa+israel way to controle ME's lands ,oil and decisions.
the plan was to push civilians, politicians in lebanon to hate and husbullah by showing him as the main reason why israel is wiping lebanon,( just as usa has done with all the islamic organization all over the world but only in lebanon and for the 1st time she couldn't) , and this was the only way that may weak hisbullah, now husbollah has already win the fight :
- israel is not untouchable any more
- husbollah has became ideological and widely supported in all islamic world , so who know how many husbullah celluls are getting ready now ?? sure 1000's !!! milions of arabs are ready to join huzbullah they are asking thier govs to allow them to fight beside
- husbullah has, still , and will be shooting israel enen more and more - the two israeli militaire are still in kidnapped
- husbullah has showed us and all the world the real face of israel in qana .....
.............................................................................
..................................................................................
......................................................................................
The Conspirator
Something interesting I found
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/le.html
Quote:
Muslim 59.7% (Shi'a, Sunni, Druze, Isma'ilite, Alawite or Nusayri), Christian 39% (Maronite Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Melkite Catholic, Armenian Orthodox, Syrian Catholic, Armenian Catholic, Syrian Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Chaldean, Assyrian, Copt, Protestant), other 1.3%
note: 17 religious sects recognized

Its from CIA.gov so it should be fairly accurate.

Offtopic: Somethin funny.
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/kt.html
Christmas Island: only 18% Christian.
bpdwg
JERUSALEM (CNN) -- Powerful explosions shattered the early morning peace in Beirut on Thursday -- airstrikes which announced a resumption of attacks on Hezbollah strongholds in the city's southern suburbs.

The strikes began just after 2 a.m. local time. The Israel Defense Forces confirmed it was targeting Hezbollah sites in southern Beirut.

The airstrikes followed a battle late Wednesday between Israeli forces and Hezbollah guerrillas near Aita Al-Shaab in southern Lebanon.
for full story please read http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/02/mideast.main/index.html

i don't know where this war will go. it seems now they are starting against lebnan not only huzbullah.
nopaniers
I'm confused horse, what ceasefire are you talking about? As far as I know neither side agreed to one.
S3nd K3ys
tadssa wrote:

- husbullah has showed us and all the world the real face of israel in qana




hesbollah turds showed how they use babies and women as shields. Wink
S3nd K3ys
The solution to this problem is clear. Talk to them. Talk to the terrorists and hope they are compationate and 'peaceful'.

Oh, wait...

http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/story.asp?j=191028774&p=y9yxz948x

Quote:
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said today the solution to the Middle East crisis was to destroy Israel, state-media reported.


Nope, dialog won't work.

Ahh, yes, the 'cease fire'. That should give the terrorists time to regroup after the pounding they've been taking.

Quote:
“Although the main solution is for the elimination of the Zionist regime, at this stage an immediate ceasefire must be implemented,”


Ok, so they wan't to regroup, but can't right now.

Quote:
Ahmadinejad called on all Muslim states to “cut their open and secret political and economic ties with the fake and outlawed Zionist regime” in response to its attacks against Lebanon.

He also urged Muslim states to “isolate” the United States and Britain for supporting Israel’s military attacks against Lebanon.

Ahmadinejad also rejected deploying international forces on the Israeli-Lebanese border.


Another callout. Does anyone still think dialog will work with terrorists? Oh, that's right, he just called for a ceasefire. But then went on to assure us that it would only be temporary. Temporary because they need time to regroup and lick their wounds.

In other news, A Newton native, riding his bicycle in northern Israel, was struck down and killed by a Hezbollah missile yesterday in the heaviest bombing by Hezbollah in weeks. Proof that the terrorists CAN hit an inteneded target with those rockets.
geyikkutuphanesi
S3nd K3ys wrote:
The solution to this problem is clear. Talk to them. Talk to the terrorists and hope they are compationate and 'peaceful'.

Oh, wait...

http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/story.asp?j=191028774&p=y9yxz948x

Quote:
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said today the solution to the Middle East crisis was to destroy Israel, state-media reported.


Nope, dialog won't work.

Ahh, yes, the 'cease fire'. That should give the terrorists time to regroup after the pounding they've been taking.

Quote:
“Although the main solution is for the elimination of the Zionist regime, at this stage an immediate ceasefire must be implemented,”


Ok, so they wan't to regroup, but can't right now.

Quote:
Ahmadinejad called on all Muslim states to “cut their open and secret political and economic ties with the fake and outlawed Zionist regime” in response to its attacks against Lebanon.

He also urged Muslim states to “isolate” the United States and Britain for supporting Israel’s military attacks against Lebanon.

Ahmadinejad also rejected deploying international forces on the Israeli-Lebanese border.


Another callout. Does anyone still think dialog will work with terrorists? Oh, that's right, he just called for a ceasefire. But then went on to assure us that it would only be temporary. Temporary because they need time to regroup and lick their wounds.

In other news, A Newton native, riding his bicycle in northern Israel, was struck down and killed by a Hezbollah missile yesterday in the heaviest bombing by Hezbollah in weeks. Proof that the terrorists CAN hit an inteneded target with those rockets.

I wanna remind that the hizbullah was born in 1982 when israel occupied lebanon. The target of this organization was to defend lebanon people. Namely israel created the hizbullah 24 years ago. Lebanon don't have a millitary power to make war. Namely this kind of war is the only way to figth for them. Guerrilla war. I don't know how you will solve this problem you have but this method will make everything worse. Fundamentalist groups will be more fundamentalist. Terrorism will grow up. U should understand that u can't solve this problem with bombs or war. Regular militaries couldn't be successful aganist guerrillas anywhere in the world. This method just damage the civils. You can obliterate lebanon but u can't obliterate terrorism. Cos Terrorism born from there. If u support lebanese ,hizbullah will disappear but if you continue to kill lebanese,hizbullah will become strong.Don't forget! This is the world u want to be.
S3nd K3ys
geyikkutuphanesi wrote:
U should understand that u can't solve this problem with bombs or war. Regular militaries couldn't be successful aganist guerrillas anywhere in the world. This method just damage the civils. You can obliterate lebanon but u can't obliterate terrorism. Cos Terrorism born from there. If u support lebanese ,hizbullah will disappear but if you continue to kill lebanese,hizbullah will become strong.Don't forget! This is the world u want to be.


I understand we can't have dialog with terrorists. They need to be destroyed.

Can't fight terrorism with bombs? Sure we can. Wink

Take Lebanon, for example... if Israel is allowed to finish destroying hesbollah ala the Lebanese infrastructure, then hesbollah, as well as Lebanon, are pretty much gone. Terrorists are killed, and those supporting them are killed as well. Hence the problem will eventually go away, or at least have thier ability to spread terror highly reduced. If the citizens of Lebanon or any other state want to take sides with the very people that would kill them, then let them. We'll deal with them the same way.

BTW, the US and Israel both said they'd help Lebanon, but Lebanon doesn't want to be helped by those that would free her, they want to be helped by those that would use her for a shield.

Also take Iraq, for example. For 20+ years there have been three major factions killing each other in Iraq. Those three factions are now sitting at a table trying to figure out a way of living peacefully, happily, and richly. All attainable if the dictator's are kept out, and the democracies are kept alive.

I can only imagine the success a truly democratic middle east could achieve if only they'd come out of the middle ages of sawing heads off and murdering women and children in the name of "God", and quit trying to wage jihad on infidels.
geyikkutuphanesi
S3nd K3ys wrote:
geyikkutuphanesi wrote:
U should understand that u can't solve this problem with bombs or war. Regular militaries couldn't be successful aganist guerrillas anywhere in the world. This method just damage the civils. You can obliterate lebanon but u can't obliterate terrorism. Cos Terrorism born from there. If u support lebanese ,hizbullah will disappear but if you continue to kill lebanese,hizbullah will become strong.Don't forget! This is the world u want to be.


I understand we can't have dialog with terrorists. They need to be destroyed.

Can't fight terrorism with bombs? Sure we can. Wink

Take Lebanon, for example... if Israel is allowed to finish destroying hesbollah ala the Lebanese infrastructure, then hesbollah, as well as Lebanon, are pretty much gone. Terrorists are killed, and those supporting them are killed as well. Hence the problem will eventually go away, or at least have thier ability to spread terror highly reduced. If the citizens of Lebanon or any other state want to take sides with the very people that would kill them, then let them. We'll deal with them the same way.

Also take Iraq, for example. For 20+ years there have been three major factions killing each other in Iraq. Those three factions are now sitting at a table trying to figure out a way of living peacefully, happily, and richly. All attainable if the dictator's are kept out, and the democracies are kept alive.

I can only imagine the success a truly democratic middle east could achieve if only they'd come out of the middle ages of sawing heads off and murdering women and children in the name of "God", and quit trying to wage jihad on infidels.

I understand that u like war. Have you lived it? Have u seen Pianist? About u. Germans had hundreds of reason like u. I think u look everything from wrong angle.like hitler. U rigtht, dialog is imposible. You are on a blind angle. Dialog is imposible with you. I'm sorry for u.
S3nd K3ys
geyikkutuphanesi wrote:
S3nd K3ys wrote:
geyikkutuphanesi wrote:
U should understand that u can't solve this problem with bombs or war. Regular militaries couldn't be successful aganist guerrillas anywhere in the world. This method just damage the civils. You can obliterate lebanon but u can't obliterate terrorism. Cos Terrorism born from there. If u support lebanese ,hizbullah will disappear but if you continue to kill lebanese,hizbullah will become strong.Don't forget! This is the world u want to be.


I understand we can't have dialog with terrorists. They need to be destroyed.

Can't fight terrorism with bombs? Sure we can. Wink

Take Lebanon, for example... if Israel is allowed to finish destroying hesbollah ala the Lebanese infrastructure, then hesbollah, as well as Lebanon, are pretty much gone. Terrorists are killed, and those supporting them are killed as well. Hence the problem will eventually go away, or at least have thier ability to spread terror highly reduced. If the citizens of Lebanon or any other state want to take sides with the very people that would kill them, then let them. We'll deal with them the same way.

Also take Iraq, for example. For 20+ years there have been three major factions killing each other in Iraq. Those three factions are now sitting at a table trying to figure out a way of living peacefully, happily, and richly. All attainable if the dictator's are kept out, and the democracies are kept alive.

I can only imagine the success a truly democratic middle east could achieve if only they'd come out of the middle ages of sawing heads off and murdering women and children in the name of "God", and quit trying to wage jihad on infidels.

I understand that u like war. Have you lived it? Have u seen Pianist? About u. Germans had hundreds of reason like u. I think u look everything from wrong angle.like hitler. U rigtht, dialog is imposible. You are on a blind angle. Dialog is imposible with you. I'm sorry for u.


Show me ONE instance where dialog has worked with terrorists.

Just ONE.

As for me 'liking' war, you're wrong. I don't like war. But I know that NOTHING short of war will stop the terrorists from spreading hatred. We're well past the 'talking' stage with these murdering barbarians. They don't want to talk, they want to remove the Infidels. Period.

religionofpeace.com wrote:
Given that Islam’s founder was a military leader who personally conducted terror attacks on caravans, led offensive battles against communities in order to steal and subjugate, who took slaves, broke truces, supervised the execution of captives, advocated the murder of Jews, and even advised his warriors on how best to rape women captured in battle, it is a wonder that there isn’t more violence than we see today.


Quote:
"Fight and slay the Unbelievers wherever ye find them. Seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war."
Qur'an, Sura 9:5
geyikkutuphanesi
Of course u cant't dialog with terrorists. Of course dialog can't solve anything. Cos They r just dialog. If you say something but do different things dialog can't work. Also terrorism don't use dialog. This is out of its defination. This is your wrong. If u try to dialog with terrorists, u can't get anything. If you try to destroy terrorisms reasons you can be successful.
nopaniers
Quote:
I can only imagine the success a truly democratic middle east


That statement loses all meaning when you support bombing and destruction of a democracy. Let's get this clear. You are not supporting democracy, but violence.

Quote:
if Israel is allowed to finish destroying hesbollah ala the Lebanese infrastructure, then hesbollah, as well as Lebanon, are pretty much gone.


Making Lebanon "pretty much gone" is revolting.

Quote:
For 20+ years there have been three major factions killing each other in Iraq. Those three factions are now sitting at a table trying to figure out a way of living peacefully, happily, and richly.


Is that a serious comment? 100 people are dying per day, killed by the militias of same groups that you are praising. There was no terrorism in Iraq before (so it seems strange that you can defeat it by invading Iraq). The invasion of Iraq had nothing to do with terrorism. Instead the invasion spread terrorism to Iraq.

Tony Blair put it very well yesterday when he said,
Blair wrote:
My point is that this war can't be won in a conventional way. It can only be won by showing that our values are stronger, better and more just, more fair than the alternative. Doing this, however, requires us to change dramatically the focus of our policy.

Unless we re-appraise our strategy, unless we revitalise the broader global agenda on poverty, climate change, trade, and in respect of the Middle East, bend every sinew of our will to making peace between Israel and Palestine, we will not win.


If you support violence against democracy, how can you win? You can't. This has been tried before, and Israel even used the same propoganda. They massacred people in Qana before, and they occupied Lebanon before. History is repeating itself, and badly. Our values are not that violence is acceptable form of poltical expression. Violence is not the way to spread your views, but only by demonstrating your values are worthwhile to have.

If you preach one set of values and support another you just look a hypocrit. No: You are a hypcrit.
S3nd K3ys
geyikkutuphanesi wrote:
Of course u cant't dialog with terrorists. Of course dialog can't solve anything. Cos They r just dialog. If you say something but do different things dialog can't work. Also terrorism don't use dialog. This is out of its defination. This is your wrong. If u try to dialog with terrorists, u can't get anything. If you try to destroy terrorisms reasons you can be successful.


Destroy terrorism's reasons?

The terrorists reason for being terrorists is Jihad.

I, for one, do NOT plan on converting. <censored> Talking won't work, so bombs it is. Wink
nopaniers
Quote:
Show me ONE instance where dialog has worked with terrorists.


Northern Ireland.
nopaniers
Quote:
The terrorists reason for being terrorists is Jihad.


Hezbollah's reason for being is to resist the occupation of Lebanon by Israel.
geyikkutuphanesi
S3nd K3ys wrote:
"Fight and slay the Unbelievers wherever ye find them. Seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war."
Qur'an, Sura 9:5


Don't use Qur'an as a source ! Mad Cos u don't have any idea about it. U show a part of it and it doesn't have any meaning. It can be have very different meaning.

and
Quote:
The terrorists reason for being terrorists is Jihad.

I, for one, do NOT plan on converting. Islam can kiss my hairy white ***. Talking won't work, so bombs it is


ARE YOU FINE? DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOU SAY? I can also curse that you respect.You want?
S3nd K3ys
nopaniers wrote:

That statement loses all meaning when you support bombing and destruction of a democracy. Let's get this clear. You are not supporting democracy, but violence.


Ok. I'm supporting violence. Big deal. The terrorists are doing it too, and since I can't support 'dialog' or 'democracy' then violence will have to do with these barbarioness baby killing murderers who hide behind civilians.

Quote:
Making Lebanon "pretty much gone" is revolting.


You makes your bed, you sleeps in it. Laughing

Quote:
Is that a serious comment? 100 people are dying per day, killed by the militias of same groups that you are praising. There was no terrorism in Iraq before (so it seems strange that you can defeat it by invading Iraq). The invasion of Iraq had nothing to do with terrorism. Instead the invasion spread terrorism to Iraq.


Yes. It's very serious. Terrorists are murdering a hundred CIVILIANS a day. But that doesn't matter. Even though these thugs are killing kids and women ON PURPOSE. Heaven forbid if Israel ACCIDENTLY kills a civilian. That just goes to show what your moral standards are. Or are NOT in this case.

And there was no terrorism in Iraq before we went to war there? Laughing Pull your head out. You're delusional.

Quote:


CIA Analysis, January 2003: Iraqi Support for Terrorism, (p.
314 of Senate Intel Report):
"Iraq has a long history of supporting terrorism."

CIA Analysis, January 2003--Iraqi Support for Terrorism, (p. 314 of Senate Intel Report):
"Iraq continues to be a safehaven, transit point, or operational node for groups and individuals who direct violence against the United States, Israel and other allies."

Bipartisan Senate Intelligence Committee Report (p. 315):
"The CIA provided 78 reports, from multiple sources, [redacted] documenting instances in which the Iraqi regime either trained operatives for attacks or dispatched them to carry out attacks."

Bipartisan Senate Intelligence Committee Report (p. 316):
"Iraq continued to participate in terrorist attacks throughout the 1990s."

Bipartisan Senate Intelligence Committee Report (p. 316):
"From 1996 to 2003, the [Iraqi Intelligence Service] focused its terrorist activities on western interests, particularly against the U.S. and Israel."

Bipartisan Senate Intelligence Committee Report (p. 316):
"Throughout 2002, the [Iraqi Intelligence Service] was becoming increasingly aggressive in planning attacks against U.S. interests. The CIA provided eight reports to support this assessment."

Bipartisan Senate Intelligence Committee Report (p. 331):
"Twelve reports received [redacted] from sources that the CIA described as having varying reliability, cited Iraq or Iraqi national involvement in al Qaeda's [chemical, biological, nuclear] CBW efforts."

The 9/11 Commission Report (p. 66):
"In March 1998, after bin Laden's public fatwa against the United States, two al Qaeda members reportedly went to Iraq to meet with Iraq Intelligence. In July, an Iraqi delegation traveled to Afghanistan to meet first with the Taliban and then with bin Laden."



Tell us some more how terrorists are only responding to regime change in Iraq, and how if only we would obey the “insurgents” there and leave Iraq, all of this would end. Rolling Eyes


Quote:
If you support violence against democracy, how can you win? You can't. This has been tried before, and Israel even used the same propoganda. They massacred people in Qana before, and they occupied Lebanon before. History is repeating itself, and badly. Our values are not that violence is acceptable form of poltical expression. Violence is not the way to spread your views, but only by demonstrating your values are worthwhile to have.


First, do some un-biased research on the fisrt attack at Qana before you make yourself look the fool again. There's always two sides, but I don't expect you to see more than you're told to see.

Also research the REAL reason Israel was in Lebanon and are there now. It's called security. A "buffer" zone to prevent the murderers from lobbing more rockets at the civilians in Israel.

Second, supporting violence against a voilent democracy is not much different that supporting violence against a violent dictator. If that democracy is terroristic, then they need to be treated as such and removed.

geyikkutuphanesi wrote:
Don't use Qur'an as a source


Yeah, don't quote it as a source because it says too many things to make islam look like, well, terrorists.

Laughing Laughing Laughing
loserk
S3nd K3ys wrote:
<censored>


<censored>
tolgaozbek
Quote:
"Yeah, don't quote it as a source because it says too many things to make islam look like, well, terrorists. "


S3nd k3ys..

What do you mean with make islam look like?? All it says are nothing but truth. Whether you like it or not! Just keep looking at it from the same point of view and one day you will see the wrath of Allah. I have no personal
animosity against any humanbeing; but your unjust, subjective, oppressive remarks is just making me feel sick. I have a close jewish friend but we had no problem with her. because she was able to admit something that Israel does something in an undecent way.

What quran says is to admit and love ALL the prophets not just Mohammed. This is the reason why we also love jesus and moses as a prophet and as word of God prior to Mohammed. I would advise you to have the same sensitivity about out holy Quran..
The Conspirator
S3nd K3ys wrote:
geyikkutuphanesi wrote:
Of course u cant't dialog with terrorists. Of course dialog can't solve anything. Cos They r just dialog. If you say something but do different things dialog can't work. Also terrorism don't use dialog. This is out of its defination. This is your wrong. If u try to dialog with terrorists, u can't get anything. If you try to destroy terrorisms reasons you can be successful.


Destroy terrorism's reasons?

The terrorists reason for being terrorists is Jihad.

I, for one, do NOT plan on converting. <censored> Talking won't work, so bombs it is. Wink


There reasons not Jihad! Its to fight an "evil country that oppresses millions and makes meaningless war and who's ultimate goal is to wipe out the Palestinians and others"!
Thats why they fight! It has nothing to do with Islam! If they were Christan, Hindu, Buddhist or any other religion the situation would be the same! Its Israel! Israel started it, Israel stale land, occupied more land, oppressed millions, builds settlements on that land, makes war in order to take more land under the guise of "self defence" That why this is going on, thats why people keep joining them, thats why the militant groups continue to fight for the destruction of Israel!
Thats why. Its not Islam, Its Israel, they are the cause. And if Israel wonted peace, there would be peace, there wouldn't be any settlements, any occupied territory. Israel would be in the borders established in the 48 and the Palestinians would not hate Israel.
S3nd K3ys
geyikkutuphanesi wrote:

ARE YOU FINE? DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOU SAY? I can also curse that you respect.You want?


I could care less. Have at it if it will make you feel better. I won't kill someone over a cartoon, or burn down a building becasue you joke of freedom.

I will continue quoting the Q'ran because there are many many many many many many references there concerning what to do with infidels.

Like these... (please feel free to put them 'into context' if you disagree with the translations.)


Quote:
9:26 Then Allah sent His peace of reassurance down upon His messenger and upon the believers, and sent down hosts ye could not see, and punished those who disbelieved. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

9:27 Then afterward Allah will relent toward whom He will; for Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

9:28 O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.

9:29 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

9:30 And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!

9:31 They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no God save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!

9:32 Fain would they put out the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah disdaineth (aught) save that He shall perfect His light, however much the disbelievers are averse.

9:33 He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the idolaters may be averse.

9:34 O ye who believe! Lo! many of the (Jewish) rabbis and the (Christian) monks devour the wealth of mankind wantonly and debar (men) from the way of Allah. They who hoard up gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah, unto them give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom,



From the previous I would assume that:

Allah punished those who disbelieved.

Only idolaters are unclean. Keep them away from places of worship.

Fight against Christians and Jews "until they pay the tribute (the Dhimmi) readily, being brought low."

"The Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah." (Where and when did any Jew ever say that?)

Christians and Jews are perverse. Allah himself fights against them.

(9:31) "They have taken as lords ... their rabbis and their monks."
Jews and Christians consider rabbis and monks to be partners with God? How do Muslims treat Muhammad?

"That He may cause it to prevail over all religion" The "Religion of Truth" (Islam) must prevail, by force if necessary, over all other religions.

Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to the rich and greedy Christian monks and Jewish rabbis.
S3nd K3ys
loserk wrote:
S3nd K3ys wrote:
<censored>


<censored>


[Side note removed by James007.]

The goal of existence, according to the Qur’an, is a struggle for Islamic domination by any means – including deceit and terror, which were both practiced by Muhammad.

Quote:
The world must submit to Allah.


I don't <censored> think so.

But to clarify that I'm not being fanatical, many Muslims realize the discrepancy between radical Islam and traditional morality, and are seeking to bring their religion in line with the modern age – if only in their own hearts.
S3nd K3ys
You contradict yourself, con. In one post you say they are not supposed to be there, in the other you say they ARE.

Make up my mind will you? Rolling Eyes

The Conspirator wrote:

Thats why. Its not Islam, Its Israel, they are the cause. And if Israel wonted peace, there would be peace, there wouldn't be any settlements, any occupied territory. Israel would be in the borders established in the 48 and the Palestinians would not hate Israel.


NOW you're saying that if Israel would have stayed in the area from the war in 48 there would be peace???

This quote is from PAGE ONE OF THIS THREAD.

The Conspirator wrote:

Arabs had every right to attack Israel, The land the makes up Israel was once rules by Arab nations and the land it self was owned by Palestinian Arabs up until the formation of Israel by foreigner for foreigners who then kicked all the Palestinian who owned out of the new Israel. So the Arab attack on Israel was legitimate unlike the formation of Israel which was not.


[edited by James007, side notes removed]

[edited by K3ys, relevant side notes re-instated without the LoLing and NEENERing] Wink
James007
@S3nd K3ys: could you please phrase your ideas a little less "à point"? We don't need to know your hairy details. And please stop attacking "the conspirator", you can attack his idea's, but that's about it.
@loserk: Ever heard of "freedom of speach"? If you can't say anything usefull, you shut up. Deal?
S3nd K3ys
James007 wrote:
@S3nd K3ys: could you please phrase your ideas a little less "à point"? We don't need to know your hairy details.
@loserk: Ever heard of "freedom of speach"? If you can't say anything usefull, you shut up. Deal?


Yeah, that was a bit over the top, errr, bottom. Sorry. Wink

As for Con's ideas, he has none. He has made that painfully clear. I just felt a need to point out the blatent discrepencies. I'll try to refrain from now on.
geyikkutuphanesi
S3nd K3ys I just want to know? What do u think about Zionism? What is your ideas? Can u explain it? What is the real target of u?
S3nd K3ys
geyikkutuphanesi wrote:
S3nd K3ys I just want to know? What do u think about Zionism? What is your ideas? Can u explain it? What is the real target of u?


Zionism is something that Iran wants to destroy. It has to do with Israel and possibly the US.

Am I close? Good. Now lets take a look at dictionary.com's interpretation and we'll discuss it from there.

Quote:
A Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel.


Aha! So the Jews were kicked out of Palestine, and zionism is the movement to RECLAIM that land.

So Iran wants to destroy Israel because Israel wants its' land back. I see. Damn you, Israel, for wanting to exist! Shocked

Quote:
Many articles on Jerusalem correctly point out that the Muslim claim to Jerusalem certainly doesn't precede the Jewish one -- the Arabs didn't even come to the Land of Israel for thousands of years after the Jews had established sovereignty there.
geyikkutuphanesi
S3nd K3ys wrote:
geyikkutuphanesi wrote:
S3nd K3ys I just want to know? What do u think about Zionism? What is your ideas? Can u explain it? What is the real target of u?


Zionism is something that Iran wants to destroy. It has to do with Israel and possibly the US.

Am I close? Good. Now lets take a look at dictionary.com's interpretation and we'll discuss it from there.

Quote:
A Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel.


Aha! So the Jews were kicked out of Palestine, and zionism is the movement to RECLAIM that land.

So Iran wants to destroy Israel because Israel wants its' land back. I see. Damn you, Israel, for wanting to exist! Shocked

can u believe that? Can it be innocent like this?
James007
geyikkutuphanesi, this is a discussion, not a quiz. Do some talking too would you? thanks.
S3nd K3ys
geyikkutuphanesi wrote:
S3nd K3ys wrote:
geyikkutuphanesi wrote:
S3nd K3ys I just want to know? What do u think about Zionism? What is your ideas? Can u explain it? What is the real target of u?


Zionism is something that Iran wants to destroy. It has to do with Israel and possibly the US.

Am I close? Good. Now lets take a look at dictionary.com's interpretation and we'll discuss it from there.

Quote:
A Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel.


Aha! So the Jews were kicked out of Palestine, and zionism is the movement to RECLAIM that land.

So Iran wants to destroy Israel because Israel wants its' land back. I see. Damn you, Israel, for wanting to exist! Shocked

can u believe that? Can it be innocent like this?


You missed that last part I put in after the fact. About the history of Israel and Arabs in the Holy Land..

Quote:
Many articles on Jerusalem correctly point out that the Muslim claim to Jerusalem certainly doesn't precede the Jewish one -- the Arabs didn't even come to the Land of Israel for thousands of years after the Jews had established sovereignty there.


Tell me what YOU think Israel should do to achieve peace. Note that if you say anything besides
Quote:
kill themselves
, I will laugh in your face. Because anything short of destruction is not acceptable according to that freak over in Iran.
The Conspirator
S3nd K3ys: Yes they do have the right to attack Israel, that land belongs to them and I don't give a damn what happened two thousand years ago no one has rights to certain lands just because they are part of a religious group, a small one at that
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_world_religions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Major_religions_2005_pie_small.png
Now I don't agree with there methods but the liberation of Palestine from Israel is right!
Israel is a bad guy, Israel is the bad guy, bigger than Iran, the biggest bad guy in the hole middle east. Why? Israel makes more fundamentalist Islamic militants per year than any other nation of group, there action have so offended and enraged Palestinians and Arabs that it is one of the main causes (along with the support of the Shah of Iran in the 70's and our ravenous hunger for Saudi Arabian oil (have you people forgot that 9 of the 9/11 hijacker where Saudi Arabian?)) of the existence of Al Qada and the huge amount of Hatred for the US. The support for Israel is the biggest middle eastern ****** up this country has ever done and there allot!
You blindly support Israel cause there fighting "terrorists" well those "terrorists" were burn out of the actions of Israel, those "terrorists" are the product of Israels rape of the Palestinians, Lebanon and others. By supporting Israel, you support those who make the "terrorists", those who make those who hate not only Israel, but us and wont us dead.
S3nd K3ys
So what's it gonna be, con. Is Israel allowed to exist or not? Rolling Eyes

Also, when you were so feverishly attacking me claiming that Palestine had rights to that land, where was your lack of acceptance for history then?

Now that it's not working in your favor, you don't give a damn about it?

sheesh, I should have left you on ignore.

Rule 1: When you find yourself in a hole, STOP DIGGING! Laughing

Still waiting for a reply from geyikkutuphanesi
The Conspirator
S3nd K3ys wrote:
n you were so feverishly attacking me claiming that Palestine had rights to that land, where was your lack of acceptance for history then?

No. That land is Palstein!
Read, learn
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians#The_ancestry_of_the_Palestinians
S3nd K3ys
Con, I'm not talking about wiki, I'm talking about YOU. You can't keep your stories straight.

Laughing Laughing Laughing
The Conspirator
Than you havn't been reading my posts.
Bondings
Am I the only one here who thinks there is more fighting/hate in this thread than in the actual war?

I can't do anything about the real conflict. However this thread is on my precious forums, where I rule.

Now there will be peace, either because this topic and all similar will be closed or because the conversation will become way more decent and civilized. I really hope the second will be the case, but the choice is up to you.
nopaniers
S3nd K3ys wrote:
I'm supporting violence... The terrorists are doing it too


I don't take my moral standards from terrorists. If I ever found myself making statements like that I'd probably want to stop and think...

Quote:
Terrorists are murdering a hundred CIVILIANS a day. But that doesn't matter.


Which is the point, and it matters a lot. Iraq has become a haven for terrorists and violence. Far from being a model "solution" Iraq is a lesson of what not to do.

Quote:
First, do some un-biased research on the fisrt attack at Qana


This is what happenened in 1996.

Wikipedia wrote:
According to a U.N. report, on April 18, Hezbollah fighters fired two or three Katyusha rockets and between five and eight mortars at Israeli soldiers near the so-called Red Line (the northern limits of the "security zone") from positions about 220 meters southwest and 350 meters southeast of the United Nations compound. 15 minutes later an Israeli unit responded by shelling the area with M-109A2 155 mm guns.[9] According to the Israeli military, thirty eight shells were fired, two-thirds of them equipped with proximity fuses, an anti-personnel mechanism that causes the weapon to explode above the ground. The UN investigation found that 13 shells exploded within or above the compound and 4 "very close to it."[10]

As a result of the shelling, 106 civilians died, with more wounded. Most of the casualties were residents of nearby villages who had fled the conflict, while four were UN troops.


So the Israelis shelled a compound full of refugees, at the edge of the buffer zone killing 106 people. According to the UN who investigated if it was a mistake or not,

Letter from Secretrary General to the President of the Security Council wrote:

(a) The distribution of impacts at Qana shows two distinct concentrations, whose mean points of impact are about 140 metres apart. If the guns were converged, as stated by the Israeli forces, there should have been only one main point of impact.

(b) The pattern of impacts is inconsistent with a normal overshooting of the declared target (the mortar site) by a few rounds, as suggested by the Israeli forces.

(c) During the shelling, there was a perceptible shift in the weight of fire from the mortar site to the United Nations compound.

(d) The distribution of point impact detonations and air bursts makes it improbable that impact fuses and proximity fuses were employed in random order, as stated by the Israeli forces.

(e) There were no impacts in the second target area which the Israeli forces claim to have shelled.

(f) Contrary to repeated denials, two Israeli helicopters and a remotely piloted vehicle were present in the Qana area at the time of the shelling.

While the possibility cannot be ruled out completely, it is unlikely that the shelling of the United Nations compound was the result of gross technical and/or procedural errors.


And it led to more extremism,
Bin Laden wrote:
"The mention of the U.S. reminds us before everything else of those innocent children who were dismembered, their heads and arms cut off in the recent explosion that took pace in Qana," and said further that this would have consequences for American civilians: "As for what you asked regarding the American people, they are not exonerated from responsibility, because they chose this government and voted for it despite their knowledge of its crimes in Palestine, Lebanon, Iraq, and in other places, and its support of its client regimes who filled their prisons with our best children and scholars… The U.S. today, as a result of this arrogance, has set a double standard, calling whoever goes against its injustice a terrorist.


S3ndKeys wrote:
Also research the REAL reason Israel was in Lebanon and are there now. It's called security. A "buffer" zone to prevent the murderers from lobbing more rockets at the civilians in Israel.


I agree on Israel's reason, I just think it is immoral and won't work. It is exactly the same reason they gave last time, and it didn't work then... and most people were just as horrified then. Targetting civilian infastructure is a war crime for which people are currently being tried in the Hague. Bombing civilian targets in residential areas with no demostratable military value is not justified, and will inevitably lead to civilian casulaties (as it has). Telling half a country to flee is immoral. Not letting in aid is unjustified. Bombing ambulance is never justified...

S3ndKeys wrote:
Second, supporting violence against a voilent democracy is not much different that supporting violence against a violent dictator. If that democracy is terroristic, then they need to be treated as such and removed.


Mr Bush, as well as pretty much the entire free world, disagrees with you (if you can believe what Mr Bush says). In April of this year he said that Lebanon was a "model" democracy and that he "strongly supports a free and independent and sovereign Lebanon" and his view that it's new government was an example of how
Bush wrote:
people of religious difference to live side-by-side in peace; to show that it's possible for people to put aside past histories to live together in. . . .peace and hope and opportunity.

Listen to the Voice of America editorial "reflecting the views of the US government" on Lebanon:
http://www.voanews.com/uspolicy/archive/2006-04/2006-04-20-voa3.cfm
http://www.voanews.com/mediaassets/uspolicy/2006_04/Audio/mp3/12739.mp3
So, just a few short months ago they were a model country, and now you think if you change their label to "terrorist" that will justify killing of women and children.
TurkishGamer
You close all topics against what cruelties Israel is doing to the Middle East and you make a topic about how one Muslim killed a Jew. Don't you think your being a little bias.


Also this may be a little off-topic but I would just like to point out that...

-When the Germany's Christian leader Hitler, killed a lot of Jews, nobody looked at his religion with hate.
-Israeli government and army are killing innocent Muslim lives in the Middle East and nobody is calling the Jews terrorists.
-Why is it that many people and the media call Muslims terrorists when only a small group with no support from government or any country, who claims that they are Muslims, attacks the U.S.
James007
Reply removed because it ignored the moderation note.
felisleo
s3 wrote:
"Fight and slay the Unbelievers wherever ye find them. Seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war."
Qur'an, Sura 9:5


checked it..
Quote:

[9:5] Once the Sacred Months are past, (and they refuse to make peace) you may kill the idol worshipers when you encounter them, punish them, and resist every move they make. If they repent and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), you shall let them go. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

[9:6] If one of the idol worshipers sought safe passage with you, you shall grant him safe passage, so that he can hear the word of GOD, then send him back to his place of security. That is because they are people who do not know.

[9:7] How can the idol worshipers demand any pledge from GOD and from His messenger? Exempted are those who have signed a peace treaty with you at the Sacred Masjid. If they honor and uphold such a treaty, you shall uphold it as well. GOD loves the righteous.


like all religions when islam was born it fought with PAGANS who rejected the existence of GOD.these were sent to forward muslims of those days.
other than that the book always says love who doesn t love you because he s made by god , be merciful ,,be true,, be honest,,pray,,tell your religion to others.....

i wrote it before you just don t get it...here is your assumption..:

incas and aztechs were killed by spanish.indians were killed by americans.
jews were killed by germans.bosnians were massacred by serbians.algerians were killed by french.all of who did this were christians...you re a christian too. therefore you are a barbarian who wants nothing but to kill people and take whatever they have.some of these christians raped to the children they killed...therefore you are yet another child rapist..

s3... there might be two reasons why you dont get these.
1-[erased]
2-you might be blinded by hate
both reasons make you impossible to debate

s3.. wrote:

For 20+ years there have been three major factions killing each other in Iraq. Those three factions are now sitting at a table trying to figure out a way of living peacefully, happily, and richly.


this comment puts you to the first category.
s3.. wrote:

it says too many things to make islam look like, well, terrorists

while this one puts you to the second.you combine them Smile

s wrote:

Heaven forbid if Israel ACCIDENTLY kills a civilian.




only in last occupasion israel killed nearly a thousand .the number of refugees are reported to be nearly 900 hundred thousand.people have become refugees in their very own country.

s3 wrote:

BTW, the US and Israel both said they'd help Lebanon, but Lebanon doesn't want to be helped by those that BOMBING HIM AND KILLING HIS CITIZENS..

i just thought thats what you meant in your heart Smile

geyikkütüpanesi wrote:

I wanna remind that the hizbullah was born in 1982 when israel occupied lebanon. The target of this organization was to defend lebanon people.


correct..

s3 AS ALWAYS you re twisting the truth in favour of [erased].i would advice you just get over yourself before [erased]

(To Mr. Moderator :i didn t use any "bad word" this time .please warn me about what is against the rules before you erase the whole post and i will edit it Smile )
S3nd K3ys
TurkishGamer wrote:
You close all topics against what cruelties Israel is doing to the Middle East and you make a topic about how one Muslim killed a Jew. Don't you think your being a little bias.


I made that topic. Not Bondings.

I'm ashamed that the MSM would gloss over that and several others just like it, and would instead over-report day after day after day about a hollywood bigshot over some drunken anti-semetic drivel he spewed at his booking when he got arrested for DUI. I mean, it's a comment he made AT A BOOKING! Why on Earth would it end up in the MSM's hands? Rolling Eyes

Quote:
-When the Germany's Christian leader Hitler, killed a lot of Jews, nobody looked at his religion with hate.


Because Hitler didn't kill those jews in the name of Christianity. Rolling Eyes

Islam has gotten it's really bad name because of their actions over the last few decades. Or lack of action when you look at the lack of denouncement by so-called peaceful Islam. They're doing it to themselves. Similar to how the US has made a name for itself as well. But that's a different topic. Wink

Quote:
-Israeli government and army are killing innocent Muslim lives in the Middle East and nobody is calling the Jews terrorists.


Becasue the Jews are protecting themselves from an attack against terrorists. An INTERNATIONAL incursion into a soverign country by part of the government of Lebanon (look it up, hesbollah is part of the Lebanese gov't) in which 8 soldiers were killed, 2 kidnapped, and rockets launched at civilian targets in Israel.

The Jews attacked hesbollah targets, where rockets were fired, munitions were stored, and hesbollah terrorists hid...

The jews are not terrorists...
They're NOT hiding behind babies
They're NOT targeting women and children
They're NOT lobbing rockets into civilian areas with the hopes of killing civilians.

They ARE warning civlians before they attack
They ARE going to great lengths to protect civilians
They ARE targeting legit military targets

Quote:
-Why is it that many people and the media call Muslims terrorists when only a small group with no support from government or any country, who claims that they are Muslims, attacks the U.S.


How many times to we have to go over this? Rolling Eyes



If the 'peaceful' muslims would stand up against the 'radical' ones, there wouldn't be a problem. It's that simple.

But the way things are going now, the war will soon be known as the "islamic" war instead of the "terror" war. And I'm not just guessing, I'm starting to hear it on the news.

Peaceful muslims need to be heard, if they truely want to be seperated from teh radical ones. Again, what happens here will be a DIRECT RESULT OF YOUR OWN ACTION OR INACTION. It's up to you how you wish to be seen.

For the record; Lebanon IS supporting the terrorists. They (hesbollah) are part of the government for God's sake! Lebanese government is NOT trying to stop them either. That would be a good start.

If they don't, I will strongly protest the US effort to rebuild Lebanon. (Yes, big evil satan America is already making plans to rebuild it)
Soulfire
So, people complain about Israel killing innocent civilians. Well, at least Israel makes an honest effort to warn and avoid civilian casualties, whereas the terrorists aim for civilian targets with intentions of killing civilians. Why aren't people complaining about the people who blow up buses with intention to kill civilians in Israel?
S3nd K3ys
felisleo wrote:


geyikkütüpanesi wrote:

I wanna remind that the hizbullah was born in 1982 when israel occupied lebanon. The target of this organization was to defend lebanon people.


correct..


Oh, look. More attempted lies being spread by leaving out facts... Rolling Eyes

The "invasion" was a response to the assassination attempt against Israel's ambassador to the United Kingdom, Shlomo Argov by Fatah and to artillery attacks launched by the PLO against populated civilian areas in northern Israel.

Lets try to keep this in perspective and quit trying to make Israel out to be the bad guy all the time.
Quote:
(To Mr. Moderator :i didn t use any "bad word" this time .please warn me about what is against the rules before you erase the whole post and i will edit it Smile )


The rules are available for everyone to read. Wink
nopaniers
Soulfire, both are bad. It's not a case of either/or. Killing civilians is just plain wrong. So far there have been 29 Israeli civilain deaths and approximately 900 Lebanese civilian deaths. This whole thing is screwed up, and supporting it will only lead to even more hatred and death.

Quote:
Oh, look. More attempted lies being spread


There was no lie. It is absolutely true that Hezbollah was formed in response to the Israeli invasion of Lebanon.
S3nd K3ys
nopaniers wrote:
Soulfire, both are bad. It's not a case of either/or. Killing civilians is just plain wrong. So far there have been 29 Israeli civilain deaths and approximately 900 Lebanese civilian deaths. This whole thing is screwed up, and supporting it will only lead to even more hatred and death.


There's a reason... Israel provides for the PROTECTION of it's citizens, hesbollah uses the citizens to protect ITSELF. Hesbollah WANTS it's civilians to get killed because it makes Israel look bad.

Israel has had over 2,000 rockets fired at it's civilians. Every single one fired in the hopes of killing civilians.

Just like at Jenin, Israeli troops are taking casualties to avoid Arab civilian casualties - while getting no credit for their sacrifice.

Quote:
There was no lie. It is absolutely true that Hezbollah was formed in response to the Israeli invasion of Lebanon.


Lies by omission are still lies.

hesbollah was formed to replace the PLO (which Israel destroyed) because the terrorists still wanted to attack Israel and control Lebanon.
The Conspirator
Quote:
Becasue the Jews are protecting themselves from an attack against terrorists. An INTERNATIONAL incursion into a soverign country by part of the government of Lebanon (look it up, hesbollah is part of the Lebanese gov't) in which 8 soldiers were killed, 2 kidnapped, and rockets launched at civilian targets in Israel.

1. Every one who thinks this, get it through your heads. Israel dose not represent Judaism!.

2. Thats a lie, its not to protect any one, , Israel just says that to get hide the real purpose of the war. Israeli aggression, Israel won;t be satisfied until it controls the hole of the region and all non Israelis are dead or gone.
S3nd K3ys
The Conspirator wrote:
Quote:
Becasue the Jews are protecting themselves from an attack against terrorists. An INTERNATIONAL incursion into a soverign country by part of the government of Lebanon (look it up, hesbollah is part of the Lebanese gov't) in which 8 soldiers were killed, 2 kidnapped, and rockets launched at civilian targets in Israel.

1. Every one who thinks this, get it through your heads. Israel dose not represent Judaism!.

2. Thats a lie, its not to protect any one, , Israel just says that to get hide the real purpose of the war. Israeli aggression, Israel won;t be satisfied until it controls the hole of the region and all non Israelis are dead or gone.


Oh... mygod! Rolling Eyes

If Israel wanted to control the entire region, it would.

It easily could.

They want to be left alone. That's all. Nothing else. Leave them alone and there will be peace. But that's not what terrorists want. They want israel GONE.

A couple of well placed tactical nukes would solve the whole ****ing problem there. But Israel, being the responsible country it is, will not do it. But you can bet your ass if Iran had a nuke, Israel would be the first target of several, with NO regard for ANYONE.

Pathitic.
The Conspirator
Actions speak louder than words. In the 6 day war Israel occupied allot of land, that was on the 60's, if Israel wonted to be left alone, they would have long been gone from the occupied territory, the occupied territory would be Palestine by now, but not only are they still there, they built settlements for Israelis. Now If they won't to be left alone who do they continuously occupy allot of land and build settlements for Israelis on it? Answer: They wont the land for them selves. And thats the purpose of this war, take more land. The only thing keeping Israel from there finale solution yest is the international community.
nopaniers
S3ndKeys wrote:
Lies by omission are still lies.


So quoting the Koran out of context is a lie then?

Quote:
hesbollah was formed to replace the PLO (which Israel destroyed)...


PLO was not destroyed, it continued on, and Hezbollah was not formed to replace the PLO, which was a Palestinian organisation which viewed itself as the political representative of the Palestinian people. What should we call factually incorrect claims?
S3nd K3ys
The Conspirator wrote:
They wont the land for them selves. And thats the purpose of this war, take more land. The only thing keeping Israel from there finale solution yest is the international community.


Damn, dude. You're a seriously misguided individual.

Israel is GIVING UP LAND FOR PEACE. Just like they always have.

# Paris Peace Conference, 1919
# Faisal-Weizmann Agreement (1919)
# 1949 Armistice Agreements
# Camp David Accords (1978)
# Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty (1979)
# Madrid Conference of 1991
# Oslo Accords (1993)
# Israel-Jordan Treaty of Peace (1994)

Every time they've pretty much been shit on by the terrorists.

Rolling Eyes
The Conspirator
Did you goudg you eyes out or where you burn blind. Giving back a little bit of land and sitting in a few peace conferences dose not change the fact that they still occupy allot of land, oppress the Palestinian people and still have settlement and are wedging a war. put it all to gather, what do you get? Israel dose not won't peace, Israel dose not won't to be left alone, Israel won;ts the whole region and it wonts all non Israelis gone. Thats what there actions say. Remember Hitler negotiated a peace, before starting WW2 and those negotiation gave him what he needed to take Czechoslovakia in war.
horseatingweeds
History books Con, history books. If by a lot you mean barley slivers.

Use your own example of the six day war. The first morning Israel to the whole Sini.
S3nd K3ys
The Conspirator wrote:
Did you goudg you eyes out or where you burn blind. Giving back a little bit of land and sitting in a few peace conferences dose not change the fact that they still occupy allot of land, oppress the Palestinian people and still have settlement and are wedging a war. put it all to gather, what do you get? Israel dose not won't peace, Israel dose not won't to be left alone, Israel won;ts the whole region and it wonts all non Israelis gone. Thats what there actions say. Remember Hitler negotiated a peace, before starting WW2 and those negotiation gave him what he needed to take Czechoslovakia in war.


Oh My Gawd!

A LOT of land? Oh, My Gawd! It's LESS THAN 8,500 square miles!

Israel, obviously, is but a small dot in the center of a large Arabian circle, a threat to nobody who leaves her alone.

Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

They're NOT waging war, the TERRORISTS ARE. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

This is pathetic, rediculous and a complete waste of time. I will no longer acknowledge your existance because you're too damn ignorant to look at FACTS and accept them. Your posts CONSTANTLY contradict each other and you're level of knowledge on the subject is precisely SQUAT.
The Conspirator
How can you call me ignorant when you blatantly ignore the world around you braced on you irational hatred of a a religion?
Israel is an evil nation who stole land rightfully belonging to the Palestinians, occupies there territory, oppresses there people, builds settlements on there land and wages an aggressive war aging the Lebanon people all in the name of stooping the "terrorists". Heres reality for you Israel; is the bad guy, Israel is the cause and continues all the shit there. There is no peace with Israel, there is no negotiating with Israel cause Israel has shown it self to have a gaol of taking the region for it self. Its actions prove it.
If you are for Israel you are for terrorism, if you won;t to fight terrorism, you have to be against Israel.
Open you bigoted eyes an look at reality.
tadssa
S3 Posts and ideas doesn't worth my time any more! for many reasons ...
thank you james007 fro removing his dirty speach !!!
tadssa
We all should admit that there exist politicised version of Islam made in usa Designed by Religious Extremist of jews, all over the world : Afghanistan, Algeria, Bangladesh, Bosnia, Congo, Cote d'Ivoire, Cyprus, East Timor, India, Indonesia (2 provinces), Kashmir, Kazakastan, Kosovo, Kurdistan, Macedonia, Nigeria, Pakistan, Philippines, Sudan, Russia-Chechnya, Tajikistan, Thailand, Uganda Uzbekistan, palestine , now lebanon and soon syria and iran ......., they are just seeking to show Muslims as anti-West, anti-Democracy, anti-Christian, anti-Jewish, anti-Buddhist, and anti-Hindu...and to find arguments for persecution or a holy war against the real islam , this situation is related to the prolonged social, economic, and politic crisis in the islamic world .
tadssa
Who created Osama bin Laden? It was America in order to fight the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Who supported the most of the dictatorial regimes in our area? It was U.S.A; these regimes are very beneficial to implement American policy and so on. Just to remind you that everyone would refer to terrorism if it were committed by the individual. What about State terrorism? Everyone is referring to terrorism as the visible one. What about the invisible terrorism? When Im not the owner of my own decisions. Everyone is referring to terrorism as a reaction. But where is terrorism as an action which causes a reaction? Arent we all the time blaming the victims?
tadssa
but i think tolerance and inter-religious dialogue is The best solution ,
why blaming islam when All religions can be misused by extremists who are seeking to find arguments for persecution or a holy war? History has shown it again and again.

We have seen it in Christianity, in the form of the Medieval Crusades, and the persecution of non-Christian and heretics right up to our own times. I am thinking for instance of the so-called Army of God in the U.S. which condones the killing of medical personnel who are involved in abortions.

We have seen it in Judaism; the very expression zealot comes from a group of Jews who used assassination in their fight against the Romans and the Romanization of the Jews. And we see it today in the form of groups such as Khatz, and Chanitri.
S3nd K3ys
tadssa wrote:
but i think tolerance and inter-religious dialogue is The best solution ,


.


Tolerance? You mean like the STATE sponsored TOLERANCE of the Iranian leader saying he wants Israel wiped off the map? It's idiots like that that are responsible for the hundreds of civilian deaths in Lebanon.

Yea, tolerance.

Oh, and inter-religious dialog?

Israel Religions wrote:
People: Jewish (80%), Muslim (15%), Christians (1.7%) and Druze (1.3%)
Language: Hebrew, Arab & English
Religion: Jewish, Muslim, Christian


Iranian Religions wrote:
Shi'ite Muslim (89%), Sunni Muslim (10%), Zoroastrian, Jewish, Christian, Baha'i (1%)


How's that for relitious tolerance?

Quote:

why blaming islam when All religions can be misused by extremists who are seeking to find arguments for persecution or a holy war? History has shown it again and again.


Christianity (even radicals) haven't openly declared and carried out a "jihad" against Islam and/or Muslims. Only Islam is in a holy war. Rolling Eyes

And I believe Muslims are involved in 95% of all conflicts in the world right now for one religious reason or another.

Like I've said, if you want to be seen seperate from the terrorists, then you need to seperate yourself from the terrorists. Wink
TurkishGamer
Muslims are not with the terrorists so they have no ability to seperate from the terrorists.

Only Muslims are in holy war because the others have been hiding the fact that they are in holy war.Like Israel for instance. Israel made an excuse to bomb Lebanon and kill Muslims by saying that a few Israeli soldiers have been kidnapped and they needed to get them back.

Who do you think was supporting Hizbullah years ago. There was evidence that Israel was. And now, I believe that Israel is creating a war so they could continue bombing. How many Israeli civilians have you heard about that was killed by Hizbullah.Barely any.
James007
S3nd K3ys... too many ****'s in your posts now. Please use decent language, thank you.
nopaniers
Israel Religions wrote:
People: Jewish (80%), Muslim (15%), Christians (1.7%) and Druze (1.3%)
Language: Hebrew, Arab & English
Religion: Jewish, Muslim, Christian


Lebanon Religions wrote:
Religions:
Muslim 59.7% (Shi'a, Sunni, Druze, Isma'ilite, Alawite or Nusayri), Christian 39% (Maronite Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Melkite Catholic, Armenian Orthodox, Syrian Catholic, Armenian Catholic, Syrian Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Chaldean, Assyrian, Copt, Protestant), other 1.3%
note: 17 religious sects recognized
Languages: Arabic (official), French, English, Armenian


Since you seem to think that diversity is good, maybe Israel should be seeking to become a more mixed society. They could start by allowing the Palestinian refugees to return to their homes.
felisleo
s3 wrote:

And I believe Muslims are involved in 95% of all conflicts in the world right now for one religious reason or another.



felisleo wrote:


s3.. wrote:


We are told that there is a difference between extremist Islam and peaceloving normal Islam.
Judging by their behavior, Muslims are anti-West, anti-Democracy, anti-Christian, anti-Jewish, anti-Buddhist, and anti-Hindu. Muslims are involved in 25 of some 30 conflicts going on in the world: in Afghanistan, Algeria, Bangladesh, Bosnia, Congo, Cote d'Ivoire, Cyprus, East Timor, India, Indonesia (2 provinces), Kashmir, Kazakastan, Kosovo, Kurdistan, Macedonia, the Middle East, Nigeria, Pakistan, Philippines, Sudan, Russia-Chechnya, Tajikistan, Thailand, Uganda and Uzbekistan.
Doesn't this mean that extremist Islam is the norm and normal Islam is extremely rare?




lets see...as much as i know ..again with your stupid logic;
afghanistan: us supported talibans against russia.they gained freedom but
russians (christians) didn t leave a single working thing in the country.the poor afghans had nothing except rocks and sand.so taliban took over the country ..and years later they got bombed by americans (christians)

algeria: the civilized french (christians civilized ones) took over the the country used all its natual resources and when algerians wanted freedom it killed one and half million algerians..

bosnia: serbians (christians) tried to genocide bosnians.did alot of massacres..raped children..cut peoples heads off....

cyprus:the greeks(christian) tried to genocide the turks.turkish army prevented them from killing...

india:british invased the country.(christians)before gaining freedom they killed alot..

kosova: serbians (christians again)

congo:it was a colony of belgium(christian).the belgians killed the ones that wanted freedom..

middle east:americans get out ..you are wanted there..israil..let palestinia be free..and stay inside your borders..

nigeria:the army was supported by cia(christian intellince).army killed alot of people.the militans wanted to take over the country..same old african story..

russia-chechenya:chechens are fighting for freedom over a hundred years with russians (christians )

as for the rest the countries i don t much about.but it is fact that in many of them russians , americans ,british are in some way involved..


and i believe in most conflicts (in every major conflict) in poor countries
mostly us , than british, french or russian is involved.
hesbollah is not fighting israel because they are jewish..hesbollah is fighting because israel is either killing palestinians or bombing lebanon..
even christians in lebanon are supporting hesbollah..because israel is DESTROYING LEBANON IN THE NAME OF "SELF DEFENCE".if israel leaves the palestinians alone (give their freedom) and stops killing lebonese there will be peace.
tadssa
S3nd K3ys wrote:
tadssa wrote:
but i think tolerance and inter-religious dialogue is The best solution ,


.



Tolerance? You mean like the STATE sponsored TOLERANCE of the Iranian leader saying he wants Israel wiped off the map? It's idiots like that that are responsible for the hundreds of civilian deaths in Lebanon.

Yea, tolerance.


1- yes he said so , because of israels acts over more than 50 year !!because of israel there have never been peace in ME and that's what will be end both sides they continue in this way .
2 - you SHUT UP !!, i said tolerance is what must be there ! not what is already there !!
we all know what both sides are saying to each !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

S3nd K3ys wrote:

Oh, and ?

Israel Religions wrote:
People: Jewish (80%), Muslim (15%), Christians (1.7%) and Druze (1.3%)
Language: Hebrew, Arab & English
Religion: Jewish, Muslim, Christian


Iranian Religions wrote:
Shi'ite Muslim (89%), Sunni Muslim (10%), Zoroastrian, Jewish, Christian, Baha'i (1%)


How's that for relitious tolerance?

what do u mean here ? tolerance and inter-religious dialog in israel ???? stop pleeaase !!!
i'm sure 100% that you're laying!! you 100% know that there is no tolerance there , please just try to say what you belive in !!! Wink

Israel Religions wrote:




Quote:

why blaming islam when All religions can be misused by extremists who are seeking to find arguments for persecution or a holy war? History has shown it again and again.


Christianity (even radicals) haven't openly declared and carried out a "jihad" against Islam and/or Muslims. Only Islam is in a holy war. Rolling Eyes



who told you this bla bla bla ,As a Muslim I know that my religious teachings to me is always to reconcile through peaceful means ,
but don't kill thier children , mothers , friends , lands ......., then wait peace as reply !!!! they sacrifice every thing for others freedome .
we will never see huzbullah as the reason of war , as you are trying to show him , stop massacring this poor people , then go out their lands !!
i'm sure 1000% , that this people ,as all real muslims , will live freeeee or die trying !!! no wonder !!

good reply from nopaniers !!!!
Quote:


And I believe Muslims are involved in 95% of all conflicts in the world right now for one religious reason or another.

Quote:

which islam , ah made in usa ? do u call that islam ? no we call it arguments to wipe themselves ! , or somthing else !! what you mean to call islam is not islam , islam is much greater than what are you trying to show him as !!



Like I've said, if you want to be seen seperate from the terrorists, then you need to seperate yourself from the terrorists. Wink


at least we agree in 1 point !! lol but 1st you should know who is the terrorist .
S3nd K3ys
TurkishGamer wrote:
Israel made an excuse to bomb Lebanon and kill Muslims by saying that a few Israeli soldiers have been kidnapped and they needed to get them back.


Um.

No.

Israel was attacked across internationally recognized borders, 8 soldiers were killed, 2 kidnapped and rockets launched into the country at civilians.

Please keep the story straight.

And if that happend in Ca, I'd make damn sure our government made sure whoever did it would NEVER have the ability to do it again. Just as any other country would do.
nopaniers
tadssa wrote:
but i think tolerance and inter-religious dialogue is The best solution, why blaming islam when All religions can be misused by extremists who are seeking to find arguments for persecution or a holy war? History has shown it again and again.


I agree. Looking over this board it's pretty clear to see how some people are trying to use the religion to stir up hatred. I suspect it's because they want to distract from all the killing and demonize others. People, I think, are always suspicious of what they don't know or understand.
S3nd K3ys
tadssa wrote:

2 - you SHUT UP !!, i said tolerance


Yeppers! Right there's tolerance! Tolerance coupled with enragement.



Sorry, I couldn't finish reading the rest of your post, tears in my eyes from LoLing at your anxiety attack and neural melt-down.

I'll try to get back to it later. Laughing
nopaniers
I agree that most conflicts are because of poverty and inequality. But just for argument sake, let's look at how many muslims are involved in in comparison with Christians, say.

This list of current conflicts is from "The History Guy"

Afghanistan: Christians yes, Islam yes.
Algeria: Islam yes, Christians no.
Basque: Islam no, Christians yes.
Burma: Islam no, Christians no.
Burundi: Christians yes, Islam no.
Colombia: Christians yes, Islam no.
Congo: Christians yes, Islam no.
Chechnya: Christians yes, Islam yes.
Israel-Lebanon: Christians no, Islam yes.
Israel-Syria border clashes: Christian no, Islam yes.
Israel-Palestine: Christian no, Islam yes.
Ivory Coast: Christians yes, Islam yes.
Kashmir: Islam yes, Christian no.
Liberia: Christian yes, Islam no.
Nepal: no, no.
Northern Ireland: Christians only.
... and so on. Count for yourself.

The point is that there is nowhere near 95% of wars are Islamic, and those that are were often started by others. From this list around 50% of wars involve Islam, and around 50% involve Christians.

A much more accurate indication of where wars will be is to look at areas of the globe where there was a lot of imperialism. Look where the world powers tried to impose their will and compare with other areas. Burma, for example, is in a constant state of civil war whereas Japan is a comparitely well off country.
horseatingweeds
Its all America’s fault really, damn FDR. If he would have entered WWII early on and supported the British Empire all these little dictatorships would still be under colonial rule. The Brits would have India, China and Africa. The French the ME, or not. Communist Russia would have stayed on the frozen step where it belongs.

Good old isolationism!
Billy Hill
I don't want to seem completely biased, but this will help show the point(s) K3ys was trying to make before he was so rudely and promptly ignored by several people here...

From FreeRepublic

Quote:
John Cummuta: Militant Muslims are the culprits in many of world's current conflicts

A letter to the editor Dear Editor: These are the facts:

• On 9/11 we were attacked by militant Islamists.

• But before that, our Marines were attacked in Lebanon by the same Hezbollah that's in the news today, and our embassies were attacked in Africa and the USS Cole was attacked in Yemen, all by militant Muslims.

• Britain, Spain, France, Germany, the Netherlands and other European countries have recently endured Islamist attacks or threats.

• Indonesia, Bali, the Philippines, Australia, and other Asian countries periodically experience Islamist bombings, kidnappings and threats.

• India is experiencing attacks from militant Muslims.

• Russia's problems in Chechnya are mostly with militant Muslims.

• Iraq's hope for democracy is under constant attack from militant Muslims.

• The African continent is seeing one militant Muslim assault after another on non-Muslims.

• Israel is under constant attack from militant Muslims.

• The world is threatened by one of the most militant Muslim regimes (Iran) developing nuclear weapons.

Notice any pattern here? Every one of these globe-spanning outbreaks of death and destruction was initiated by militant Muslims. The non-Muslim world is under assault by Muslims who interpret the Quran to charge them with the responsibility of converting the entire globe to Taliban-like Muslim states by force. They're taking their lead from the Prophet Muhammad's way of growing Islam in the 7th century and the Ottoman Empire's spreading of Islamic domination in the 16th and 17th centuries - both by the sword - not by a peaceful triumph of their belief system over other belief systems.

They are not fighting and hating us because of Israel, or the Iraq war, or our presence in the Mideast. They are against us because we are the world's largest purveyor of freedom. They hate freedom, women's rights, choice, and especially freedom of religion. They believe in Muslim dictatorships like they had in Afghanistan and currently have in Iran.

That's what they want for the United States, and that's the only outcome that will satisfy these extremists - so how could we ever negotiate with them when the only thing they want is our total destruction as a free society and our total submission to them? Since I don't believe the majority of Americans wants to give control of our country to militant Muslims, we have no choice but to fight them. They won't stop if we bring our troops home from abroad. They won't stop until they win - or we win.

We have no choice but to fight them. The only choice we do have is where we fight them: over there - like Iraq and Afghanistan - or here in the U.S. Pick one.

John Cummuta Prairie du Chien


To continue the thought, terrorism (in it's many forms including but not limited to Al Quada, Hamas and Hezbollah) has taken place or been thwarted in Iraq, India, the Sudan, Algeria, Afghanistan, New York, Pakistan, Israel, Russia, Chechnya, the Philippines, Indonesia, Nigeria, England, Thailand, Spain, Egypt, Bangladesh, Saudi Arabia, Ingushetia, Dagestan, Turkey, Kabardino-Balkaria, Morocco, Yemen, Lebanon, France, Uzbekistan, Gaza, Tunisia, Kosovo, Bosnia, Mauritania, Kenya, Eritrea, Syria, Somalia, California, Kuwait, Virginia, Ethiopia, Iran, Jordan, United Arab Emirates, Louisiana, Texas, Tanzania, Germany, Pennsylvania, Belgium, Denmark, East Timor, Qatar, Maryland, Tajikistan, the Netherlands, Scotland, Chad and Canada.

It's like an epidemic. Just during the 7 days between 7/23 and 7/29 there have been 41 attacks made under the guise of Jihad, with over 200 casualties and nearly 500 injured critically. (I can provide you a list if you like)

Iran, clearly sponsoring terrorist groups via the state, has pushed Hezbollah to attack Israel to detract from the pending UN Resolution to stop Iran's nuke program. Iran has clearly stated it's intent to 'destroy Israel' and with such declaration there can be no cease fire like Hezbollah wants. Hezbollah will be (at the very least) disarmed in Lebanon.

So, as K3ys has said, there is no 'talking' with the real powers behind terrorism. This needs to be done for the good of the free world. The days of living in terror should have stopped with the middle ages.
bangala
The conclusions are: Hizbullah created this crisis. Israel is defending itself. The underlying problem is Arab extremism and terrorism, Right??
NO, it's WRONG!
Read this analysis from the Christian Science Monitor,
Hizbullah's attacks stem from Israeli incursions into Lebanon
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0801/p09s02-coop.html
felisleo
bangala wrote:

The conclusions are: Hizbullah created this crisis. Israel is defending itself. The underlying problem is Arab extremism and terrorism, Right??
NO, it's WRONG!
Read this analysis from the Christian Science Monitor,
Hizbullah's attacks stem from Israeli incursions into Lebanon
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0801/p09s02-coop.html


Quote:

Since its withdrawal of occupation forces from southern Lebanon in May 2000, Israel has violated the United Nations-monitored "blue line" on an almost daily basis, according to UN reports. Hizbullah's military doctrine, articulated in the early 1990s, states that it will fire Katyusha rockets into Israel only in response to Israeli attacks on Lebanese civilians or Hizbullah's leadership; this indeed has been the pattern.

In the process of its violations, Israel has terrorized the general population, destroyed private property, and killed numerous civilians. This past February, for instance, 15-year-old shepherd Yusuf Rahil was killed by unprovoked Israeli cross-border fire as he tended his flock in southern Lebanon. Israel has assassinated its enemies in the streets of Lebanese cities and continues to occupy Lebanon's Shebaa Farms area, while refusing to hand over the maps of mine fields that continue to kill and cripple civilians in southern Lebanon more than six years after the war supposedly ended. What peace did Hizbullah shatter?

Hizbullah's capture of the soldiers took place in the context of this ongoing conflict, which in turn is fundamentally shaped by realities in the Palestinian territories. To the vexation of Israel and its allies, Hizbullah - easily the most popular political movement in the Middle East - unflinchingly stands with the Palestinians.

Since June 25, when Palestinian fighters captured one Israeli soldier and demanded a prisoner exchange, Israel has killed more than 140 Palestinians. Like the Lebanese situation, that flare-up was detached from its wider context and was said to be "manufactured" by the enemies of Israel; more nonsense proffered in order to distract from the apparently unthinkable reality that it is the manner in which Israel was created, and the ideological premises that have sustained it for almost 60 years, that are the core of the entire Arab-Israeli conflict.

Once the Arabs had rejected the UN's right to give away their land and to force them to pay the price for European pogroms and the Holocaust, the creation of Israel in 1948 was made possible only by ethnic cleansing and annexation. This is historical fact and has been documented by Israeli historians, such as Benny Morris. Yet Israel continues to contend that it had nothing to do with the Palestinian exodus, and consequently has no moral duty to offer redress.

For six decades the Palestinian refugees have been refused their right to return home because they are of the wrong race. "Israel must remain a Jewish state," is an almost sacral mantra across the Western political spectrum. It means, in practice, that Israel is accorded the right to be an ethnocracy at the expense of the refugees and their descendants, now close to 5 million.



agreed..
The Conspirator
Billy Hill: Israel and Israels actions are one of the main factors that caused modern fundamentalist Islamic militantism, there are other factors but Israel is at the top of the list (or at least in the top 3) If Israel had never formed, fundamentalist Islamic militantism would not have near the power it dose. And Israels action continue to fuel the flame of fundamentalist Islamic militantism.
Plus if the US and other western powers had played there cards right fundamentalist Islamic militantim would be a tinny blip on the radar, they would be more like those racist molisha groups you here about.
bangala
Israel is headed for the greatest military humiliation in its history!
Read this interesting analysis from the Wall Street Journal by Bret Stephens:
Israel Is Losing This War
and Its leaders need to act fast.
http://www.opinionjournal.com/wsj/?id=110008733
ainieas
Does it really matter who's right or who's wrong. All I see is people who want nothing to do with war seeing their loved ones die and lose all they have. Will Israel ever win the war or will it create more refugees with nothing to lose who'll find solace only in religious extremism. And we all know where that leads to......
tadssa
Billy Hill wrote:

So, as K3ys has said, there is no 'talking' with the real powers behind terrorism. This needs to be done for the good of the free world. The days of living in terror should have stopped with the middle ages.


we all agree there is no 'talking' with the real powers behind terrorism , but read that one once again Wink :

tadssa wrote:
Who created Osama bin Laden? It was America in order to fight the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Who supported the most of the dictatorial regimes in our area? It was U.S.A; these regimes are very beneficial to implement American policy and so on. Just to remind you that everyone would refer to terrorism if it were committed by the individual. What about State terrorism? Everyone is referring to terrorism as the visible one. What about the invisible terrorism? When Im not the owner of my own decisions. Everyone is referring to terrorism as a reaction. But where is terrorism as an action which causes a reaction? Arent we all the time blaming the victims?






ainieas wrote:
Does it really matter who's right or who's wrong. All I see is people who want nothing to do with war seeing their loved ones die and lose all they have.



yes we are all sorry about them , imagine urself living there !!!
horseatingweeds
tadssa wrote:
Who created Osama bin Laden? It was America in order to fight the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Who supported the most of the dictatorial regimes in our area? It was U.S.A; these regimes are very beneficial to implement American policy and so on. Just to remind you that everyone would refer to terrorism if it were committed by the individual. What about State terrorism? Everyone is referring to terrorism as the visible one. What about the invisible terrorism? When Im not the owner of my own decisions. Everyone is referring to terrorism as a reaction. But where is terrorism as an action which causes a reaction? Arent we all the time blaming the victims?


You’re are speaking of entities back by the US in order to protect the region from Soviet invasion, if that is what you mean by American policy, an atheist Communist Soviet invasion that would scoff at the petty measures taken by Israel to ovoid civilian death. Remember Afghanistan?

The Soviets didn’t ever accidentally strike any civilian targets. The purposely killed everyone, every single person, killed all the animals, destroyed all the buildings and poisoned any water source.

Next time your murmuring about how evil the US is and such, bringing up Bin Ladin or the Moesha Hudine, remember why, and the alternatives, and be glad the US really isn’t the ‘Big Evil’.
bangala
3 weeks ago, when I was saying that Israel is destroying whatever Bush has achieved in Lebanon and Iraq and that Hizballah is going to be more powerfull and Israel will achieve nothing from its war against Lebanon, someone here had nothing to say except calling me a kid!
http://www.frihost.com/forums/vt-44442-5.html
Now Israelis themselves are saying it loudly! Our PM has caused a disaster to Israel!
The famous Israeli writer, Nehemia Shtrasler, writes about the failures of their PM:
Quote:
Olmert is disturbed by the criticism of the failure to achieve the war's goals, and he is trying by words alone to turn this reality into achievements, both for the government and for himself. But the sad truth is that our situation today is worse than it was at the start of the war, and time is not on our side.

Quote:
Nasrallah's status has been strengthened, both in Lebanon and throughout the Arab world, and there is a chance that his strength will increase following the next elections in Lebanon. That is not "restoring deterrence." It is a serious blow at Israel's deterrent capability.

Read the full article in the Israeli Newspaper Haaretz
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/746308.html
Conclusion: too much love can kill, just like the Nazis who were acting like the most patriotic German people, they did nothing to Germany except destroying it and the rest of the world!
horseatingweeds
News Flash:

US and France agree on resolution –
Israeli tanks to be shifted into reverse –
Hesbollah to give up on the destroy Israel idea –

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5620322

Are these people from the same planet as us?
tadssa
well , to reply Mr horseeatingidonnou....

i should start from this post :

horseatingweeds wrote:
damn FDR. If he would have entered WWII early on and supported the British Empire all these little dictatorships would still be under colonial rule. The Brits would have India, China and Africa. The French the ME, or not. Communist Russia would have stayed on the frozen step where it belongs.

Good old isolationism!


what does he meant here ?? usa entred the war to save us from the colonial rule ??? lol

stop your "if was that, would that, and will that...."

let's realy imagine if the usa entred WWII Some weeks later or if she supported dictators or ..or...!!!



we can guess many things , but the only thing i m sure about is that : i wasn't to hear from you !! because the men in the pic also pursued another aim - that of the elimination of Jewry, which they believed had a "biological base" and all over the world !!
so we are lucky !! at least we can hear from you and the Jewry survived !!!

BTW... quote from other Forum (will neva give his adress in public)
Quote:
if European-Americans ("whites") has found arabics instead of Native Americans ("Indians").......


realy funny post !!
another "if was that, would that, and will that...." lol !!
tadssa
replay 2 to Mr horseatingweed :

wrote:
tadssa wrote:
Who created Osama bin Laden? It was America in order to fight the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Who supported the most of the dictatorial regimes in our area? It was U.S.A; these regimes are very beneficial to implement American policy and so on. Just to remind you that everyone would refer to terrorism if it were committed by the individual. What about State terrorism? Everyone is referring to terrorism as the visible one. What about the invisible terrorism? When Im not the owner of my own decisions. Everyone is referring to terrorism as a reaction. But where is terrorism as an action which causes a reaction? Arent we all the time blaming the victims?


You’re are speaking of entities back by the US in order to protect the region from Soviet invasion, if that is what you mean by American policy, an atheist Communist Soviet invasion that would scoff at the petty measures taken by Israel to ovoid civilian death. Remember Afghanistan?



USA has felt the Soviet danger !! she Created and supported terrorist in the region. but soon she understand she was wrong ,



it was late.......!!!!

so late !!

the terrorist is so rooted ( fbi , cia , ...,...,...,...,) couldn't find Ossama bin laden !!! wonder no ?!! ( i doubt !!!) .

but sorry about all victims !!!!!
tadssa
reply 3 to .........

horseatingweeds wrote:



The Soviets didn’t ever accidentally strike any civilian targets. The purposely killed everyone, every single person, killed all the animals, destroyed all the buildings and poisoned any water source.



ah i see Wink , israel has learned too much from Soviet !!!
have more here :

http://www.fromisraeltolebanon.info/
tadssa
horseatingweeds wrote:


Next time your murmuring about how evil the US is and such, bringing up Bin Ladin or the Moesha Hudine, remember why?



Rolling Eyes thx i will , do u? we should all do so .

is this the terrorist you are blaming ??


or you mean ??


but that one very important :
http://www.ccmep.org/usbombingwatch/2003.htm
tadssa
horseatingweeds wrote:



and the alternatives, and be glad the US really isn’t the ‘Big Evil’.


this need too much time to speak about , starting from :

http://www.the-wild-west.co.uk/wild-west.htm
to :

to :

.................................
to :
.........................
to :

http://www.stopusa.be/
to :
..............................
horseatingweeds
Wow, tadssa. I am usually glad to have discussion with people holding your belief. However, your posts where so adamantly committed to ignorance and misguided hate that it’s really not worth it, is it. Is it tadssa?

In particular, I am appalled that you would further exploit the injured child.

In the areas of:

1. US western expansion.
2. WWII
3. Soviet expansion
4. Moesha Hudin resistance
5. FDR

Your knowledge is likely very poor.

As for:

horseatingweeds wrote:
damn FDR. If he would have entered WWII early on and supported the British Empire all these little dictatorships would still be under colonial rule. The Brits would have India, China and Africa. The French the ME, or not. Communist Russia would have stayed on the frozen step where it belongs.

Good old isolationism!


This was a joke for fellow novice historians. For you to understand it I am sure would take an inordinate amount of Tom Cruse / Pete Mitchell knows what. (another joke that might spin you off on a rant)

I urge YOU to open your eyes and take my advice Mr. Quintuple poster, read what people are saying and try to understand it for the sake of understanding. Your notions are very absurd. I imagine you are a member of the Arab peoples of the Mid-east. If this is true your people need more rational and intelligent young people seeking out the truth of things rather than adhering to these ‘Israel is evil for having these slivers of land and the US is evil because they do not oppress their people’ shenanigans. Also, if you really want people to take you seriously, this type of post will only degrade your validity. Ask Gonzo or just look him and his posts up.

You have a great start, you are learning English. Next, I would suggest reading some history books. Oxford University Press is great. http://www.oup.com/ Don’t buy anything from their site though, go to www.amazon.com
tadssa
horseatingweeds wrote:
Wow, tadssa. I am usually glad to have discussion with people holding your belief. However, your posts where so adamantly committed to ignorance and misguided hate that it’s really not worth it, is it. Is it tadssa?

This was a joke for fellow novice historians. For you to understand it I am sure would take an inordinate amount of Tom Cruse / Pete Mitchell knows what. (another joke that might spin you off on a rant)



Dear S3 , horseatingidonnou..,Fihost readers
what i want you to know is that i don't hate you , neither Correct jews , correct Muslims , correct christians ,and whatever was the belief you're holding or your religion , was you in israel , usa , france , germany , paki, iraq , morocco ,china , northern or southern pole ,or any place & any where , we all have the right to live ,but i hate some politics and ideas widly spreaded all over the world, it is : "War is against terrorist" we should support it .
we all have the right to live ,but i hate some politics and ideas spreading all over the world, it is : "War is against terrorist we should support it ". imagine your self born in Iraq , lebanon , palestine ....you loosed your naughty children ,spouse , house, friends ,... just because you were born there !!! because they need more Money , More oil ,they want your land , they think you're terrorist , how can you tell them i'm not ? they are shooting no where to escape !!! all what they can offer is bombs , the other side offering food and ......
STOP supporting "WAR FOR OIL" it will lead the world to WWIII , sure nuclear one so don't support your death !!!

horseatingweeds wrote:



You have a great start, you are learning English.


thx ,i'm doing well !! lol , because i'm sure you can never learn arabic !!!
Do u speak Frensh !! well i'm using http://translate.google.com/translate_t to translat : frensh - english , arabe - english , lol Wink

horseatingweeds wrote:

Next, I would suggest reading some history books. Oxford University Press is great. http://www.oup.com/ Don’t buy anything from their site though, go to www.amazon.com


well thx , ah!! Oxford ?? i don't belive all what i read !! all what i hear !! sorry !! what i'm sure you can't read that the books i can suggest you to read .
tadssa
have a look here :

http://positionedgraphics.home.comcast.net/
http://positionedgraphics.home.comcast.net/
http://positionedgraphics.home.comcast.net/
http://positionedgraphics.home.comcast.net/
http://positionedgraphics.home.comcast.net/

and :

http://www.stopwaroniran.org/

and :

http://www.stopusa.be/scripts/texte.php?section=BM&langue=3&id=24764

and :

http://www.stopusa.be/scripts/texte.php?section=BO&langue=3&id=23706
tadssa
Songs to listen :


http://www.stopusa.be/Songs/01%20-%20Declaration%20of%20War.mp3


Yankee, go home!
http://www.stopusa.be/campaigns/istanbul/CD/1.mp3


http://www.stopusa.be/Songs/David%20Rovics%20-%20the_war_is_over.wma


http://www.stopusa.be/Songs/08%20-%20Invisible%20Hand.mp3
nopaniers
I have to say that the new resolution sounds absolutely useless. How can you have a resolution which allows one side (Israel) to keep fighting? In my opinion the resolution should make it absolutely clear that everybody has to stop fighting, now. No fighting. No bombing. No military operations. Everybody stop, and stop now.

Forget stopping one side, but not the other. That's meaningless.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5249972.stm
felisleo
tadysa wrote:


Yankee, go home!
http://www.stopusa.be/campaigns/istanbul/CD/1.mp3


lol! tad actually this song is telling my beautiful city istanbul.the sound of the backward crowd is taken from a meeting of which i remember..The words are pretty meaningful too.

but you re right!! GO HOME YANKEE!! Laughing Laughing
horseatingweeds
Tassda, this is what I am talking about. The sources of information and songs are of a very bias nature. Oxford University Press is not of a bias nature. Oxford University Press is located in the US, yes, but if anything published by them is bias it would be sympathetic to Arabs and Islam, certainly not toward the US or Israel.

I understand your concerned about “War on terrorism” being used as an excuse to steel land and resource, and to kill rivals. However, you should not let this concern blind you to the fact that there is a type of criminal in our world that needs to be dealt with. It should also be understood that all those who are not against this type of criminal are in fact supporting it.

Example: If the Arab world would subdue Hesbullah, Israel would certainly not be allowed into Lebanon. The Arab world supports Hesbullah, actually saying out loud “Yes, we intend to destroy Israel”, so Israel is aloud to go into Lebanon.

I do try to understand things from the perspective of the Lebanese, Iraqis, and Palestinians. I believe this is essential. If I lost family or friend to a fight in my land I would certainly be angry. I would hope that despite my anger that I would continue this belief and understand both sides of the conflict and rather than seek revenge, seek to honor them by finding a solution.

One of the more inspiring things I have heard is from and Iraqi who said, after loosing his loved one to recent sectarian violence, that he would honor them by building a strong peaceful Iraq.

nopaneir wrote:
I have to say that the new resolution sounds absolutely useless. How can you have a resolution which allows one side (Israel) to keep fighting? In my opinion the resolution should make it absolutely clear that everybody has to stop fighting, now. No fighting. No bombing. No military operations. Everybody stop, and stop now.


The reason it is useless is that it ignores the fact that the problem is there are two trains speeding toward each other and the only throttle we have control of is the Israel train. It doesn’t matter if we stop Israel. Hesbollah continues.
bangala
horseatingweeds wrote:
Example: If the Arab world would subdue Hesbullah, Israel would certainly not be allowed into Lebanon.

Are you sure?? This is the 6th time that Israel was allowed to invade Lebanon. Hizballah was created ONLY DURING the 5th invasion. I'm sure Israel can give you GREAT reasons for each invasion and you're more than ready to accept them. Isn't this what you're just warning from: being biased? Can you imagine a country being destroyed 6 times since the creation of another country?
Quote:
The Arab world supports Hesbullah, actually saying out loud “Yes, we intend to destroy Israel”, so Israel is aloud to go into Lebanon.

That's interesting horseatingweeds! So Israel has the right to destroy Lebanon, a free democratic nation, as president Bush said, 6 times just because a group living there have said they will destroy Israel!
Do you punish people by what they say or what they do?
And how are you gonna convince stupid Arabs to stop thinking about destroying wonderful Israel if they see it destroying their own country several times?
Quote:
It doesn’t matter if we stop Israel. Hesbollah continues.

You've NEVER stopped Israel.
It happened actually once and you should be proud about it.
horseatingweeds
Bangala, please. It is not as if Israel just decided on a whim each time to enter. They where left with little choice.

No, Israel dose not have the right to destroy Lebanon. But if an entity supported by Lebanon, within Lebanon, is actively trying to destroy Israel, what should Israel do? What would you do?

Please don’t act silly about ‘stopping’ Israel. I thing giving back the Sini and other huge gained areas is ‘stopping’ enough. This ‘Israel has our land’ argument is an blatant excuse. If you tried to rob your neighbor, and he stopped you, then took your whole house from you, then gave it back except for the tree on your property that you used to get into his house initially, would you pledge your children’s blood to retrieve your stupid tree?

And, YES. If Lebanon subdued Hesbollah, this would never have happened. This can not be refuted rationally.
The Conspirator
Quote:
They where left with little choice.

Thats not true, there are plenty of choices, they chose war.
The thing is war isn't always the answer, many time in history nations and people have gone to war and lost. Some times the answer is to use other tactics.
In Israels case, war makes them there enemy stronger and them weaker.
horseatingweeds
OK Con, tell me just two of these other ‘choices’ genius.
The Conspirator
I'm no tactician but I can tell you this much, by getting all those ass holes out of those settlements and by stooping the oppression of the Palestinians, they would go along way toward a peaceful solution.
Explain this to me, how is making there enemy stronger and them selves weaker there only choice?
bangala
horseatingweeds wrote:
No, Israel dose not have the right to destroy Lebanon. But if an entity supported by Lebanon, within Lebanon, is actively trying to destroy Israel, what should Israel do? What would you do?.

Ok so Hizballah has the intention of destroying Israel, so Israel has the right to destroy Lebanon, and Israel did it, and it did it very well 6 times. Do you think now Arabs, including Hizballa, has the right to THINK about destroying Israel? I'm just following your argument, that does't mean I do believe in destroying Israel.
Quote:
Please don’t act silly about ‘stopping’ Israel I thing giving back the Sini and other huge gained areas

No problem horseatingweeds, treat me like a silly person and educate me about those huge areas that you're talking about. Also, does invading several countries and then returning back a small part of the occupied lands after almost 20 years of sufferings mean STOPPING ?
Quote:
This ‘Israel has our land’ argument is an blatant excuse. If you tried to rob your neighbor, and he stopped you, then took your whole house from you, then gave it back except for the tree on your property that you used to get into his house initially, would you pledge your children’s blood to retrieve your stupid tree?

Although I did not talk about ‘Israel has our land’ execuse, may I ask you if it's a stupid tree, why is he insisting on keeping it ?
nopaniers
Actually Oxford University Press is a department of Oxford University in the UK, although it is true that half of their books on the Middle East were written by Americans. I'm not sure what this has to do with anything at all.
http://www.oup.co.uk/

Allow me to suggest an alternative to war. Israel should have been supporting the Lebanese government. If they were concerned that the Lebanese government were not powerful enough then perhaps they should direct some of their $2.5 billion dollars of US military aid that they get to the Lebanese government to strengthen it. That's around 2000 times the amount of aid that Lebanon receives from the US (at around $1.5 million).

There were also national dialogue. For example in Febuary and March of this year they were making progress, holding talks on disbanding militias without leading to a civil war in Lebanon.
Quote:
A top United Nations envoy told the Speaker of the Lebanese Parliament that he supported national dialogue as a way to accomplish the disbanding of foreign and domestic militias in the country and meet other Security Council requirements.

Terje Roed-Larsen, Secretary-General Kofi Annan’s Special Envoy for the Implementation of resolution 1559, spoke by phone yesterday with Nabih Berri to convey Mr. Annan’s views in that regard.

In a statement last month on the issue, the Security Council said that much progress had been made since the adoption of resolution 1559, which called for an end to foreign influence in Lebanon, including the withdrawal of Syrian forces and the holding of credible parliamentary elections in May and June 2005.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=17615&Cr=leban&Cr1=

Quote:
Political leaders in Lebanon have discussed the future of President Emile Lahoud and the disarming of militias at a second day of talks to foster unity. The week-long National Dialogue has brought together all key Lebanese factions in the broadest gathering since the end of the civil war in 1990. Politicians said the talks had broken down psychological barriers.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4772288.stm

This is what Israel should have been supporting and pushing, not war. Bombing has only ensured they will have a problem for years to come.
S3nd K3ys
News updates about "Peaceful Islam"

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1154525817493&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
Over 80 rockets fired at northern cities | Jerusalem Post

http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1045705
DNA - India - 1 killed, 17 injured in Kashmir grenade blast - Daily News & Analysis

http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=52&story_id=32070&name=Lebanese+packaging+found+in+train+bombs%3A+report
Expatica's German news in English: Lebanese packaging found in train bombs: report

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=50681
Sakka says fighting Jews is Muslims' duty - Turkish Daily News Aug 05, 2006

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/world/story.html?id=da7e6af4-3f2f-416a-b2bc-bb51afe6fed6&k=89717
At least 18 die in attacks in northern Iraq

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1154525801532&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
Father, daughter among 5 dead in Acre | Jerusalem Post

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/184206.php
The Jawa Report: Another Fake Reuters Photo from Lebanon

http://www.christiansofiraq.com/letthemrape.html
Let them Rape and Kill Christian Women, says Speaker of the Iraqi Parliament

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1838222,00.html
The Observer | World | Gays flee Iraq as Shia death squads find a new target

http://www.westernresistance.com/blog/archives/002718.html
Western Resistance: Pakistan: Muslim Cleric Marries Off A Three Month Old Baby Girl
S3nd K3ys
Russian Federation Council Constitutional Legislation Committee Chairman is verbally slamming terrorists for using "human shields"

It's really sad that the mis-informed folks here can't see who really wants peace and who doesn't. I guess in the end everything will come out in the wash.
nopaniers
S3ndKeys, once again you are misrepresenting a legitmate organisation. I encourage everyone to visit PACE's website and read what they really think, rather than to get it third hand from a very biased blog. People who are interested can find the actual announcements of PACE here:
http://assembly.coe.int/

Quote:
PACE President calls for the immediate release of the Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council
[07/08/2006] PACE President René van der Linden today deplored the arrest by the Israeli Army of the Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council, Aziz Dweik, and called for his immediate release. "The Palestinian Legislative Council is a democratically elected parliamentary body that derives its legitimacy from elections held in January this year, which the members of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe who observed them declared were conducted 'in a well organised and democratic fashion'. (more...)

http://assembly.coe.int/ASP/Press/StopPressView.asp?CPID=1798

Quote:
PACE President calls for immediate halt to fighting in Lebanon
[02/08/2006] PACE President René van der Linden today deplored the deaths of innocent civilians on all sides and called for an immediate halt to the fighting in the Middle East. “The continuing disproportionate use of force by Israel, in particular indiscriminate attacks on civilian targets, is completely unacceptable and in violation of the most basic norms of international law. Such a policy only plays into the hands of the terrorists and their extremist supporters,” the President said. (more...)

http://assembly.coe.int/ASP/Press/StopPressView.asp?CPID=1796

Please take the time to read the truth before believing a blog by a guy who thinks that it is time to send Lebanese "to hell".

Also, I think it is dishonest of you to copy and paste this guy's website without using quotation marks. Unless of course it is you who are writing the blog.
S3nd K3ys
nopaniers wrote:
S3ndKeys, once again you are misrepresenting a legitmate organisation. I encourage everyone to visit PACE's website and read what they really think, rather than to get it third hand from a very biased blog. People who are interested can find the actual announcements of PACE here:
http://assembly.coe.int/

Quote:
PACE President calls for the immediate release of the Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council
[07/08/2006] PACE President René van der Linden today deplored the arrest by the Israeli Army of the Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council, Aziz Dweik, and called for his immediate release. "The Palestinian Legislative Council is a democratically elected parliamentary body that derives its legitimacy from elections held in January this year, which the members of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe who observed them declared were conducted 'in a well organised and democratic fashion'. (more...)

http://assembly.coe.int/ASP/Press/StopPressView.asp?CPID=1798

Quote:
PACE President calls for immediate halt to fighting in Lebanon
[02/08/2006] PACE President René van der Linden today deplored the deaths of innocent civilians on all sides and called for an immediate halt to the fighting in the Middle East. “The continuing disproportionate use of force by Israel, in particular indiscriminate attacks on civilian targets, is completely unacceptable and in violation of the most basic norms of international law. Such a policy only plays into the hands of the terrorists and their extremist supporters,” the President said. (more...)

http://assembly.coe.int/ASP/Press/StopPressView.asp?CPID=1796

Please take the time to read the truth before believing a blog by a guy who thinks that it is time to send Lebanese "to hell".

Also, I think it is dishonest of you to copy and paste this guy's website without using quotation marks. Unless of course it is you who are writing the blog.


LoL!

So now links have to be in quote tags?? You silly boy. Laughing Laughing Laughing

Did you update the FAQ, TOS and Rules? Shocked

nopaniers wrote:
a very biased blog


What makes you think it's biased? Oh, the Israeli banner? Laughing
nopaniers
No actually, now I read it closer, I find that it someone quoting frihost (this discussion) without proper references.

Is it you writing the blog? Or maybe horse? I don't see who else would quote our discussion. In either case, it's a bit weird with you referencing yourself, and I find it dishonest. If you are saying PACE says something, link to them, not to your own blog.

Yes. It's clearly biased. It's devoid of facts, and full of ranting. It has an Israeli banner and practically calls for a new crusade against Islam. I think that qualifies as biased.
S3nd K3ys
There's a link to the story on the blog leading to interfax. Try clicking it before making accusations you can't back up Rolling Eyes
HoboPelican
S3nd K3ys wrote:
... before making accusations you can't back up Rolling Eyes


That is pretty lame, sendkeys, considering all the statements you've made here that have been proven false or misleading. Maybe you should take your own advice. Don't make statements you can't backup. Open you mind just a little. Read other's posts and actually think about them. These are all things I've seen you tell others and yet you are as bad as anyone in ignoring this concepts.

You actually would be doing your viewpoint a greater service by letting Horse do your talking for you. Your blither simply makes rational folk think your a fanatic. Of course, some people would just rather be heard than listened to.
S3nd K3ys
HoboPelican wrote:
blah blah blah...


Did you hear something??? Laughing Laughing Wink

j/k hobo, WTF are you talking about? What have I stated that's been proven false? And yes, there's a link provided on in the title on that blog that points to where that article in the blog was taken from. Sorry if you got confused (again) and couldn't find the link. Shocked

:edit:

I've been looking at the PACE site and can't find a referenc to the article. I can't even find an article that mentions Yury Sharandin at all. Does that mean it's all a lie? Rolling Eyes

No, because if you read the article, it says

Quote:
"This tactic will be unsuccessful, because modern surveillance methods have unmasked this tactic, and what is coming to the foreground now is the fact that Hezbollah disregards the lives of peaceful civilians in Lebanon and uses them as a human shield," Sharandin told Interfax Saturday.
HoboPelican
Quote:
Did you hear something??? Laughing Laughing Wink

j/k hobo, WTF are you talking about? What have I stated that's been proven false? And yes, there's a link provided on in the title on that blog that points to where that article in the blog was taken from. Sorry if you got confused (again) and couldn't find the link. Shocked


sendkeys, anyone reading this,(excludes you?) knows the points. Go back and look for then yoursef. Usually the give away is where you got silent for awhile and actual conversation ensued. Let Horse make the valild points, then you can nod your head.
S3nd K3ys
HoboPelican wrote:
Quote:
Did you hear something??? Laughing Laughing Wink

j/k hobo, WTF are you talking about? What have I stated that's been proven false? And yes, there's a link provided on in the title on that blog that points to where that article in the blog was taken from. Sorry if you got confused (again) and couldn't find the link. Shocked


sendkeys, anyone reading this,(excludes you?) knows the points. Go back and look for then yoursef. Usually the give away is where you got silent for awhile and actual conversation ensued. Let Horse make the valild points, then you can nod your head.


That's what I thought.. Said false statements not found.
HoboPelican
S3nd K3ys wrote:
HoboPelican wrote:
Quote:
Did you hear something??? Laughing Laughing Wink

j/k hobo, WTF are you talking about? What have I stated that's been proven false? And yes, there's a link provided on in the title on that blog that points to where that article in the blog was taken from. Sorry if you got confused (again) and couldn't find the link. Shocked


sendkeys, anyone reading this,(excludes you?) knows the points. Go back and look for then yoursef. Usually the give away is where you got silent for awhile and actual conversation ensued. Let Horse make the valild points, then you can nod your head.


That's what I thought.. Said false statements not found.


Your getting very boring, sendkeys. Again, and this is typical of your weak posts. You take selected portions of a post and try to run with it. My post mentioned your being proved false or misleading. Step one for you is to ignore part of the post. Step two is attack something in the reply, hoping nobody will notice that you haven't responded to anything. I'm not playing that game with you.

Again, and this is the important part of what I'm saying, you have no desire to be listened to, you just want to rant. Your use of smilies only underlines the fact that you think all of the people dying in the ME, on both sides, is a joke.
<sigh>

I'm done with this until I see something intelligent posted.
S3nd K3ys
HoboPelican wrote:


I'm done with this until I see something intelligent posted.


Buahahahaha!!! Laughing Laughing Laughing

Poor hobo. Making claims about me being wrong then not being able to prove it, then putting me on ignore when I call him on it. (But not until AFTER he tries to make people think I enjoy children getting killed) Wink
horseatingweeds
bangala wrote:
Ok so Hizballah has the intention of destroying Israel, so Israel has the right to destroy Lebanon, and Israel did it, and it did it very well 6 times. Do you think now Arabs, including Hizballa, has the right to THINK about destroying Israel? I'm just following your argument, that does't mean I do believe in destroying Israel.


Anyone has the right to THINK about doing anything. It is when they fire missiles, cross international borders and kill and capture, and make open threats that Israel is granted the right to react.

bangala wrote:
No problem horseatingweeds, treat me like a silly person and educate me about those huge areas that you're talking about. Also, does invading several countries and then returning back a small part of the occupied lands after almost 20 years of sufferings mean STOPPING ?


Ok, but only if you educate me about the six times. And ‘stopping’ is ridiculous. Stop Israel? From what defending her self, retaliating for attack, counter attacking, taking strategic point from her enemies who are using these points to kill her people?

Lets start with the 6-day war, Syria was minding its own business and shelling (firing artillery cannons) Israel from the Golan Heights, a highly strategic position overlooking Israeli territory. Israel overreacted by sending in air strikes.

The Egyptians lined up armor and men along Israel’s border and proclaimed, “Yes, or intention is to destroy Israel”. Jordan was poised to take Jerusalem. They also cut of her shipping lanes in the Red Sea.

Israel, knowing it was the only way as it would have been likely the end of her to try to hold off a three front attack, struck first. With her superior training, equipment and the element of surprise eliminated the Egyptian air force and beat her soldiers out of the Sinai Peninsula. The next day she counter attacked the Jordanians and beat them actors the Jordan River then later assaulted the Golan Heights and took much of it.

Israel then withdrew to strategic point where she would be able to defend her self against further attack. Unlike what some here have concluded, that Israel has an expansionist agenda, take vulnerable lands.

Then the 1973 war. This time Israel was caught off guard but countered and ended up surrounding a huge chunk of the Egyptian army in the Sinai and was within 60 miles of Cairo and 25 miles from Damascus. This time, just as in the 6-day she had complete air superiority and easily could have taken lands or at least administered some more damage. She didn’t. Actually, after negotiations she gave ‘back’ the Sinai Peninsula (Big Piece) but kept and is keeping the strategic points in the Gaza Strip, West Bank, and Golan Heights. These are small pieces with value only to those who would want a strategic military advantage against Israel.

bangala wrote:
Although I did not talk about ‘Israel has our land’ execuse, may I ask you if it's a stupid tree, why is he insisting on keeping it ?


Exactly, he wants the tree so he can climb back into your house. He believes that it is his life’s mission to kill you and he needs it to get in. He justifies this by saying you ‘stole’ the tree from him and he is simple sacrificing his children to get back there beloved tree.

nonpaniers wrote:
Allow me to suggest an alternative to war. Israel should have been supporting the Lebanese government. If they were concerned that the Lebanese government were not powerful enough then perhaps they should direct some of their $2.5 billion dollars of US military aid that they get to the Lebanese government to strengthen it. That's around 2000 times the amount of aid that Lebanon receives from the US (at around $1.5 million).


This certainly sounds nice. I admit, when I read through your links or when I hear of a resolution being passed to end the fighting I feel warm little butterflies in my stomach. However, logically I don’t think this would have helped for two reasons.

One, Hesbollah has had a tight enough grip that I don’t think any amount of assistance would have helped. I mean, Israel her self is having a hard time with it!

Two, and this is the same reason the any negotiation or sees fire is not possible, Hesbollah is an entity that exists only for the purposes of destroying Israel. Sometimes, when it is not preaching “down with the Zionists” it claims to be fighting for the Arabs to reclaim land. But this is just an excuse and admittance as these lands are only precious to anyone wanting to hold a military advantage over certain areas in Israel.

S3nd K3ys wrote:
Russia now verbally slamming terrorists for using "human shields"

It's really sad that the mis-informed folks here can't see who really wants peace and who doesn't. I guess in the end everything will come out in the wash.


Terrorist are just misunderstood. We gots to be gentle. Hole sill nya. Yauh, the Russians have never had to deal with this ‘human shield’ business, have they. I wonder why?

I can’t remember where it was said and I am lazy but, there is an Oxford Publishing house in the US and Frihost is the only forum that I have ever fussed with anything non-technical.
nopaniers
S3ndKeys wrote:
There's a link to the story on the blog leading to interfax.


No. There's no link, only cutting and pasting, and nothing to back up the claim that it is Russia's position (as opposed to the views of one single person who happens to be Russian). You (I assume is you considering you cut and paste the same things in your blog and on these boards) didn't even bother to find out what the Russian position was before saying what it was in your blog, and then quoting your own blog on these boards. Why not cite the original article? Perhaps that is because if people actually go to the Interfax website they will find many links reflecting Russia's true position.

Russia's position is clearly spelled out by Putin. They want a ceasefire, and have done since the beginning of the conflict. They are also aware of the possibility of Russian troops being called on to be peacekeepers. Russia has been among Israel's harsher critics:

Interfax wrote:
MOSCOW. July 31 (Interfax) - The tragedy in the Lebanese village of Qana is a callous violation of international humanitarian law, Russian Foreign Ministry Spokesman Mikhail Kamynin said. "Such mistakes are a callous violation of the simplest norms of the
international humanitarian law," a statement by the Russian Foreign
Ministry published on Monday reads. "The tragedy in Qana is more proof of the need to immediately cease military actions, bloodshed and violence in Lebanon," he said in the statement.
"The logic and arguments of those who are dragging out a ceasefire cannot be accepted," Kamynin said. Russia upholds a UN statement which expresses shock and pain over the bombing of a residence in Qana that killed dozens of civilians, mainly children, he said.


In fact, unlike the US and EU, Russia is willing to work with Hezbollah
Interfax wrote:
DUBAI. July 28 (Interfax) - An eventual deployment of a peacekeeping force in Lebanon should be coordinated with Hezbollah, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov has said.
"Any agreements should be cleared with all the main forces in Lebanon, including Hezbollah, as an organization represented in the Lebanese parliament and the Lebanese government," Lavrov told journalists aboard a plane on his way from Kuala Lumpur to Dubai Friday.


Quote:
MOSCOW. Aug 2 (Interfax) - Russia is determined to work for an immediate end to the bloodshed in the Middle East and transition to a political settlement of the crisis, the Foreign Ministry reports.
Russia's stance was detailed at a meeting of Deputy Foreign Minister Alexander Saltanov and a group of Arab ambassadors and the charge d'affaires of the League of Arab States in Moscow, a release by the ministry's information department said.
"The Russian side emphasized its determination to work for an immediate end to the bloodshed and a transition to a political settlement of the crisis with an eye on the resumption of the peace process based on UN Security Council resolutions #242, 338 and 1515 and other decisions of the international community with the purpose of preventing a repetition of the current developments and restoring lasting peace in the region," the ministry release says.


To be clear: Those resolutions which the Russian foreign ministry quoted are 242, and 338 which calls for Israel to withdraw to it's 1967 borders; 1515 is the roadmap for peace. Russia is putting the blame squarely at Israels feet.

But don't worry. Go on quoting someone whose largest claim to fame is trying to ammend the Russian constitution to make it less democratic, and passing laws to make Russia's parliament less democratic, much to the annoyance of the West. It makes it clear who you're siding with anyway.
nopaniers
horse, can you please edit your post? You have accidentally quoted me as saying things which I did not say.
nopaniers
Thanks mate. Now, a reply. First horse said:

horseatingweeds wrote:
Hesbollah has had a tight enough grip that I don’t think any amount of assistance would have helped.


If you can only see a military solution then I agree with you. There is no way to disarm Hezbollah militarily: not for Israel and not for Lebanon. It would be civil war for Lebanon to try, and counterproductive for Israel to try. But I'm not talking about a military solution.

We are talking about a poltical solution, one which was already underway and showing progress. All you need to do is make it advantageous for Hezbollah to participate (as they were) in the democratic political process, which they did, and bring them under central control, which was the aim of the talks. You don't need to impose and artificial military solutions which just lead to more fighting in the future.

By bombing Israel has only created a situation where Hezbollah cannot be brought under central government control. You have to wonder how well the central government will even be able to keep law and order for the next few days, weeks and months. They're crippled because Israel has bombed all the civilian infastructure.

If you listen to the Lebanese Prime Minister (and he does have a pretty good idea!), the main obstacle to disarming Hezbollah is the continued occupation of the Shebaa farms.
Quote:
the continued presence of Israeli occupation of Lebanese lands in the Shebaa Farms region is what contributes to the presence of Hezbollah weapons. The international community must help us in (getting) an Israeli withdrawal from Shebaa Farms so we can solve the problem of Hezbollah's arms.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/07/20/D8IVQ8Q85.html

Now there's something constructive that Israel can do. It's a novel idea, but maybe they would like to comply with UN security council resolutions!
bangala
horseatingweeds wrote:
bangala wrote:
Ok so Hizballah has the intention of destroying Israel, so Israel has the right to destroy Lebanon, and Israel did it, and it did it very well 6 times. Do you think now Arabs, including Hizballa, has the right to THINK about destroying Israel? I'm just following your argument, that does't mean I do believe in destroying Israel.


Anyone has the right to THINK about doing anything. It is when they fire missiles, cross international borders and kill and capture, and make open threats that Israel is granted the right to react.

It's not just a matter of reaction, but how to react, we are talking about destruction. Even Israelis themselves are now unhappy about the result of their government's reaction.
Quote:

bangala wrote:
No problem horseatingweeds, treat me like a silly person and educate me about those huge areas that you're talking about. Also, does invading several countries and then returning back a small part of the occupied lands after almost 20 years of sufferings mean STOPPING ?


Ok, but only if you educate me about the six times. And ‘stopping’ is ridiculous. Stop Israel? From what defending her self, retaliating for attack, counter attacking, taking strategic point from her enemies who are using these points to kill her people?

The 6 Times? Check out this Israeli source which lists wars of Israel in the region. Count Lebanon in the list and the result is 5 and then add the recent one. 5+1 =6
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/israeli_history.html
Regarding "STOPPING", I was commenting on what you've said that USA has done alot to STOP Israel and not about whether Israel should be stopped or not, that's not the point, let's focus our discussion.
Also, I really don't think it's proper now to discuss the details of these old wars as it could go forever.
Quote:

bangala wrote:
Although I did not talk about ‘Israel has our land’ execuse, may I ask you if it's a stupid tree, why is he insisting on keeping it ?


Exactly, he wants the tree so he can climb back into your house. He believes that it is his life’s mission to kill you and he needs it to get in. He justifies this by saying you ‘stole’ the tree from him and he is simple sacrificing his children to get back there beloved tree.

You have to understand the culture here in the ME. People value their land as much as their childrens. If you want to make peace with them, don't hold their properties, even if you think it's rediculous. It's theirs so give it back to them and don't give them any execuse to attack you again.
bangala
For those who think that supporting Israel is through supporting its war in Lebanon, read what the Israelis are thinking now about this war. Nobody is destroying Israel as much as its idiot leaders.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/747480.html

A new poll in an Israeli newspaper: 55% think that Israel should leave Lebanon immediately.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/rosnerMain.jhtml
S3nd K3ys
nopaniers wrote:
S3ndKeys wrote:
There's a link to the story on the blog leading to interfax.


No. There's no link, only cutting and pasting, and nothing to back up the claim that it is Russia's position blah blah blah...


Oh. Really ??? ??? ??? !!!

Laughing

So did you like, put your mouse over the title of the post and, you know... CLICK it???

Rolling Eyes


Because it sure acted like a link on MY browser. Perhaps your browser doesn't support external links? Shocked

Laughing Laughing Laughing
S3nd K3ys
bangala wrote:

It's not just a matter of reaction, but how to react, we are talking about destruction. .


You're damn skippy! Reaction is key.

I bet they (the terrorists) think twice before they do that again. Laughing Laughing Laughing
nopaniers
S3ndKeys, the point is that Russia does not have the views you say it does.
S3nd K3ys
nopaniers wrote:
S3ndKeys, the point is that Russia does not have the views you say it does.


I didn't say Russia has those views... Interfax said it. If you dispute that, take it up with Interfax, not me. I'm just reporting what I found.
bangala
Watch George Galloway, the British MP, in an interview with Sky News about the current conflict in Lebanon. Trust me you don’t wanna miss this interview.
http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,31200-galloway_060806,00.html#
bangala
S3nd K3ys wrote:
bangala wrote:

It's not just a matter of reaction, but how to react, we are talking about destruction. .


I bet they (the terrorists) think twice before they do that again. Laughing Laughing Laughing

It looks like the opposite! According to the Israeli media, they will think now several times before they invade Lebanon again. Go back to the Israeli sources that I provided in my previous posts and read, if you ever read!
S3nd K3ys
bangala wrote:
Watch George Galloway, the British MP, in an interview with Sky News about the current conflict in Lebanon. Trust me you don’t wanna miss this interview.
http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,31200-galloway_060806,00.html#


bangala, this is from your link. Laughing Laughing Laughing

bangala's link wrote:
Where Does The Truth Lie During War?

The former journalist Phillip Knightley spoke to Sky News about who really is telling the truth during the Middle East crisis. This question comes after a freelance photographer for Reuters was sacked for faking pictures.


I have no doubt Israel will definately react the same if another terrorist organization attacks them unprovoked like hesbollah did. But I do have doubts that hesbollah would would provoke them like that again. hesbollah is just about done as far as their ability to wage terror on Israel. A week or two more is all they need to finish up, and it looks like they're going to get it.

The only thing I see stopping Israel is direct involvement from Iran, and if that happens, Iran is toast. Burnt toast. Wink

BTW, I have no idea who Galloway is or what a "British MP" is, and his concerns and thoughts are of little concern to me. I doubt he is in charge of Britian's military, so it likely doesn't matter to much of anyone what he thinks.

:edit:

Oh, I get it, MP = Member of Parlament??? Laughing Laughing Laughing I guess that's the equivelant of our own John Murtha calling our troops murderers, and our own John Kerry or Ted Kennedy running off at the mouth with their anti-american rhetoric. Laughing Laughing Laughing
nopaniers
Quote:
I didn't say Russia has those views... Interfax said it.

No. Interfax said that it was the view of one person. You are the only one saying that it is Russia's view.

Quote:
BTW, I have no idea who Galloway is or what a "British MP" is

I'm surprised someone can get to your age and not know what an MP is.
S3nd K3ys
nopaniers wrote:
Quote:
I didn't say Russia has those views... Interfax said it.

No. Interfax said that it was the view of one person. You are the only one saying that it is Russia's view.


Point noted and post modified to reflect such. Wink (I see you (finally) found the link?? )

Quote:
Quote:
BTW, I have no idea who Galloway is or what a "British MP" is

I'm surprised someone can get to your age and not know what an MP is.


In my dictionary, MP is either Military Police, or Mastercam Post, and is the proprietary programming language for the post processors in Mastercam. As in..

Code:
pncoutput       #Movement output
      pcom_moveb
      spaces=0
      comment
      spaces=sav_spc
      if cool_zmove = yes & (nextop=1003 | (nextop=1011 & t<>abs(nexttool))), coolant = zero
      pcan
      if cuttype = zero, ppos_cax_lin #Toolplane rotary positioning
      if gcode = zero, prapidout
      if gcode = one, plinout
      if gcode > one & gcode < four, pcirout
      if mr_rt_actv, #Restore absolute/incremental for G51/G68
        [
        absinc = sav_absinc
        mr_rt_actv = zero
        ]
      pcom_movea



So back to my point....
Quote:
I guess that's the equivelant of our own John Murtha calling our troops murderers, and our own John Kerry or Ted Kennedy running off at the mouth with their anti-american rhetoric.


Wink
nopaniers
bangala: That is absolutely hillarious!
nopaniers
S3nd, thankyou. Are you going to modify your blog too?
nopaniers
There's a real problem when the people writing the resolution are the same people supplying the bombs. The US isn't exactly a neutral party, so it's no wonder their resolution turned out to be so weak. After so much bickering and a resolution like that one, it's pretty clear all they want to do is continue war.

Quote:
The Arab League's representations to the UN Security Council come after Lebanon said it found aspects of the draft resolution unacceptable.

As well as the demand for an Israeli pullout to be included, there is also dispute over wording which currently demands that Hezbollah ends all attacks and Israel only ends "offensive" military operations.

"It is most saddening that the council stands idly by, crippled, unable to stop the bloodbath which has become the bitter daily lot of the defenceless Lebanese people," the delegation head, Qatar's Sheikh Hamad bin Jassem bin Jabr al-Thani, told the meeting.

Lebanon, which has put forward its own seven-point proposal for peace, said the current resolution was flawed.

"Regrettably, the draft resolution not only falls short of meeting many of our legitimate requests, but it also may not bring about the results that the international community hopes it would achieve," Acting Foreign Minister Tarek Mitri told the council.

"We requested an immediate ceasefire. What has taken so much time is still not an immediate ceasefire."

Veto-wielding Russia earlier said it would not vote for any resolution which did not have the backing of Lebanon.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5258234.stm

A resolution which does not stop the fighting is useless. Israel view their whole campaign as "defensive" (which is crazy, but that's what they think). So effectively the resolution means that Israel can keep fighting but nobody else can. If Israel continue fighting then so will Hezbollah.
jipmerite
Well can you really expect a country to back down and let another country keep attacking them?

Israel is going against UN and International treaties again and again and no one is doing anything against them. Just words and no actions.



And now again it is Lebanon who has to back down when everyone saying israel is using 'excessive force'///what does Israel have to do to some other country apart from killing hundreds of civilians to be called a terrorist country?
bangala
S3nd K3ys wrote:
hesbollah is just about done as far as their ability to wage terror on Israel. A week or two more is all they need to finish up, and it looks like they're going to get it.

There's a huge difference between wishes and reality, specially if you're not prepared to admit it. However, keep dreaming!
Here are the words of an Israeli citizen who's living this reality and admitting it. He knows that without facing reality, he can never change it.
Quote:
Its begining to sink in. We wont even be allowed to have fly overs over Lebanese territory and that spells trouble. What ever Government that will rule Lebanon wont be friendly to Israel. We will have to leave the Shaba farms and give up the mine field maps and exchange prisoners(even if they will have to give up the kidnapped soldiers "first"). 100 dead and 1,356 wounded. The IDF seen as no threat anymore and the IAF as "baby killers". We have created more enemies for the future and are now the most hated Nation upon earth. Call it "Victory", but a couple of more of these "Victories" and we can all pack up and leave.
Ruth Gold

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/747820.html
fikizy
western people are so poor that they can even make alliance with jews against muslims and they are still talking about hate in islam. Christians have such a big hate against muslims that they are supporting jews. 500 years ago christians were posting jews from their countries. Queen of spain said that" they are such an animals that they shouldnt live on earth" but after this all european kingdoms agreed to send them to eastern kingdoms. only ottoman empire accepted those jews. now christians are telling us that muslims are making big rush at middle east ,we are barbarians, torturing jews and islam is the only religion which has hate in it. now tell me my christian friends, isn't it true that u are supporting jews against muslims cause u hate muslims more than jews? u can even make alliance with evil against muslims i think.
S3nd K3ys
nopaniers wrote:
There's a real problem when the people writing the resolution are the same people supplying the bombs.


Exactally. Everyone (that matters at least) knows who the problem is; hesbollah. Just because the media doesn't show them as the aggressor/terrorist doesn't mean they're not. Wink

And it's refreshing knowing that the people holding the bombs are at least trying to settle this and stop the attacks.

Quote:
A resolution which does not stop the fighting is useless.
...
If Israel continue fighting then so will Hezbollah.


Agreed, that's why there hasn't been one to work yet. This problem is deeper than stopping a fight on that border. It's about the defense of the existance of Israel. Just ask Iran, they'll tell you. Again.

If Israel continue to fight, hesbollah will fall. Wink
The Conspirator
Quote:
If Israel continue to fight, hesbollah will fall.

In what reality. Hesbolla has only gotten stronger and Israel has gotten weaker.
Self defence my ass, more like self destruction.