Do you think its about time the USA moved away from its blanket support of Israel no matter what?
I think they are certainly in the wrong on not supporting the UN resolution against Israel. I really find it incredible that Americans are still surprised by Arab animosity when they continue to support attrocities from country's who they have a vested interest in.
A more sensible foreign policy by the USA may ultimately do more to reduce terrorism in the world than there dogmatic move towards blasting oponants of the face of the Earth.
Jim
| honestman wrote: |
| Do you think its about time the USA moved away from its blanket support of Israel no matter what? |
No. That would be stupid. Should your parents stop protecting you no matter what? 
| Quote: |
| I think they are certainly in the wrong on not supporting the UN resolution against Israel. I really find it incredible that Americans are still surprised by Arab animosity when they continue to support attrocities from country's who they have a vested interest in. |
I think they are certainly in the right on vetoing the UN. The UN wanted to place restrictions entirely on Israel and none on anyone else. The same old bull shit that always happens to Israel. The UN provided the land to Israel yet is not willing to let Israel defend herself against those that would take it from them? :finger:
| Quote: |
| A more sensible foreign policy by the USA may ultimately do more to reduce terrorism in the world than there dogmatic move towards blasting oponants of the face of the Earth. |
Reduce terrorism?
Do you know who Israel is fighting right now? They're not fighting some peace loving country that has done nothing wrong. Israel is defending herself ONCE AGAIN against massive attacks from terrorists.
I can only hope the US lets her take off the gloves. The terrorists need to be run out of Israel once and for all, and be prevented from ever being able to attack them again.I'm unsure as to why the average american automatically takes the side of Israel. Granted, they are in a VERY difficult situation but that does not make the Israeli government above reproach.
| Quote: |
| Should your parents stop protecting you no matter what? |
That's a very interesting thing to say, as parents are very often incapable of recognising faults in their children.
The problem is that the land Israel now owns was originally occupied by someone, namely palestinians, whose attitude towards the UN is actually the same as yours S3ndK3ys: "Why should we care what they say?" Especially given that they were there first.
I happen to agree with you that the last thing Israel needs is sanctions though. However, they certainly aren't beyond reproach just because they happen to be an official soverign country set up by the UN.
And can we PLEASE not play the terrorist card here, it's ****** ridiculous. There are "terrorists" on both sides and just because palestine is not a sovereign nation does not mean it is OK to label all their soldiers as such. I guess if we are going to admit that the Palestinian fighters are soldiers and not terrorists we should also admit that Israel is at full scale war with Palestine and Lebanon and limiting there actions is asinine.
We should also admit that it doesn’t matter what the UN says. They are the equivalent of an idiot in the back seat making suggestions. They have proven unable or willing to enforce what they decide.
| AftershockVibe wrote: |
I'm unsure as to why the average american automatically takes the side of Israel. Granted, they are in a VERY difficult situation but that does not make the Israeli government above reproach.
|
They're not above reproach. Perhaps you haven't heard America's response? Defend yourself but use restraint. If those ass holes were lobbing missles into MY city, I'd damn sure go to war with them. I wouldnt' just 'kill a few of theirs', I'd remove their capacity to attack me ever again.
I don't want them killing civilians, but at least they're trying not to, unlike the palestinians and the rest of the terrorists that are attacking Israel constantly.
| Quote: |
| Quote: | | Should your parents stop protecting you no matter what? |
That's a very interesting thing to say, as parents are very often incapable of recognising faults in their children. |
Are you a parent? I am. I am quite well aware of my children's faults, but I will not bring them out in public. I'll make sure they are respectful to others, and deal with them personally and PRIVATELY.
How would YOU do it?
| Quote: |
| The problem is that the land Israel now owns was originally occupied by someone, namely palestinians, whose attitude towards the UN is actually the same as yours S3ndK3ys: "Why should we care what they say?" Especially given that they were there first. |
Wrong. Take your history back further. Then read the Bible.
Israel has been kicked out of that land so many times in the last 3,000 years it's not worth repeating. Israel is still there because that's what God wants. That doesn't sit well with the terrorists. So they want to exterminate them.
| Quote: |
| I happen to agree with you that the last thing Israel needs is sanctions though. However, they certainly aren't beyond reproach just because they happen to be an official soverign country set up by the UN. |
Again, they're not above reproach. They also not TRYING to target civilians, where the terrorists who are attacking her are targeting civilians.
| Quote: |
And can we PLEASE not play the terrorist card here, it's **** ridiculous. There are "terrorists" on both sides and just because palestine is not a sovereign nation does not mean it is OK to label all their soldiers as such. |
Are you in complete denial? Do you not see what Palestine, Hesbolla, Hammas are? They're ****ing terrorists, supported by terrorists in Iran and Syria.
Make no mistake, this will not stop in Lebanon or Palestine. It will go all the way to Iran, and may even make it to China/Russia before all is said and done if they don't get their priorities straightened out.
I'll take bets on that, btw. 
I absolutely think they should re-evaluate their support of Israel. Israel has just attacked one of its neighbors, and practised collective punishment of the Pallestinians. They are a destabilizing the region with a disproportionate and provokative response, especially the killing of around 50 civilians. The US should call a spade a spade, and tell Israel in no uncertain terms that their actions aren't acceptable.
| nopaniers wrote: |
| I absolutely think they should re-evaluate their support of Israel. Israel has just attacked one of its neighbors, and practised collective punishment of the Pallestinians. They are a destabilizing the region with a disproportionate and provokative response, especially the killing of around 50 civilians. The US should call a spade a spade, and tell Israel in no uncertain terms that their actions aren't acceptable. |
Israel is defending itself against armed intruders coming into the country and killing soldiers and kidnapping in the hopes of using them for a bargening chip. The region has always been unstable becasue the terrorists won't leave Israel alone.
God Bless Israel!We should withdrawal all support for Israel. Since is creation its been adding fuel to an inferno especially since the 6 day war. Israel actions have done nothing but add to the hatred of Israel, push more and more moderates to the extremist side and cause more and more people to become suicide bombers
Killing women and children will not make Israel safer. Neither will blockading other countries, shutting down the power supplies thousands of people a city in the middle of summer, or attempting to provoke war. It's disproportionate and cruel.
| The Conspirator wrote: |
| We should withdrawal all support for Israel. |
I think your proposition is no different than aiding the extremists in destroying Israel.
| nopaniers wrote: |
| Killing women and children will not make Israel safer. Neither will blockading other countries, shutting down the power supplies thousands of people a city in the middle of summer, or attempting to provoke war. It's disproportionate and cruel. |
I think the intention is to kill the kidnapers and terrorists. Also to turn the governments and people against the groups responsible for the attack. | The Conspirator wrote: |
| Since is creation |
Israel has been around for what, 3,000 years??
Check your history. Check your Bible.S3ndK3ys,
How blind can u get!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not every muslim, arab and soldier who Israel dont like is a terrorist 
Israel is using american support to expand into the rest of the middle east and america is turnin a blind eye "because its Israel". Israel is gettin away with sum horrendous crimes because they can. I cannot wait till 2008 where HOPEFULLY someone with sense will take office in the white house.
Israel demands that Lebanon agrees to the UN but they themselves are using america to avoid it.
<yell>I CANNOT WAIT TILL THE DAY THE MUSLIM COUNTRIES UNITE!!!!</yell> | horseatingweeds wrote: |
| I think the intention is to kill the kidnapers and terrorists. Also to turn the governments and people against the groups responsible for the attack. |
Do you really think killing civilians will turn people against their government? The government in Lebanon is anti-Syrian anyway. No. It will turn people against Israel. You get bombed in your own cities and see civilians being killed, you are angry at the people who killed them. It will only stir up anger. It's a short-sighted and horrible thing to do. | CyanEyed wrote: |
<yell>I CANNOT WAIT TILL THE DAY THE MUSLIM COUNTRIES UNITE!!!!</yell> |
You better eat a big breakfast and bring ALL your friends.
The ONLY reason the radical Muslims are still around and throwing their weight around is because the government doesn't want to admit what you just said...
Remember, eat a big breakfast and bring all your friends, because you're gonna be there a LONG time trying to rid the world of modern civilization.Israel is the one throwing its weight around.
| nopaniers wrote: |
| Israel is the one throwing its weight around. |
Now that they've been ONCE AGAIN pushed into a corner. And they're STILL showing restraint.
WTF did you THINK was gonna happen, they'd just roll over and take it in the ass?
Not bloody likely. They're tired of the terrorists attacking them time after time after time.
nopainers, you might as well give up. You're not going to ever convince me that murdering terrorists are worth protecting. Israel has every right to defend herself against the repeated attacks of terrorists.
Period.
| nopaniers wrote: |
| horseatingweeds wrote: | | I think the intention is to kill the kidnapers and terrorists. Also to turn the governments and people against the groups responsible for the attack. |
Do you really think killing civilians will turn people against their government? The government in Lebanon is anti-Syrian anyway. No. It will turn people against Israel. You get bombed in your own cities and see civilians being killed, you are angry at the people who killed them. It will only stir up anger. It's a short-sighted and horrible thing to do. |
Israel in not targeting civilians. That was part of the point I was trying to make. They are trying to kill people who DO kill civilians. The only civilians Israel kills are accidental. They even drop leaflets warning them to stay the hell away from places they know are targets.
The blockade is meant to motivate the citizens and leaders to go after the bad guys. It’s not like Israel can really get them when they are protected by those people and leaders. | S3nd K3ys wrote: |
| And they're STILL showing restraint. |
Launching attacks on another country is not restraint.
| Quote: |
| WTF did you THINK was gonna happen, they'd just roll over and take it in the ***? |
I expected them to behave as if they were civilized. I obviously expected too much. | Quote: |
| I think your proposition is no different than aiding the extremists in destroying Israel. |
Israel is the one creating the extremists. | nopaniers wrote: |
| S3nd K3ys wrote: | | And they're STILL showing restraint. |
Launching attacks on another country is not restraint.
| Quote: | | WTF did you THINK was gonna happen, they'd just roll over and take it in the ***? |
I expected them to behave as if they were civilized. I obviously expected too much. |
They're defending themselves from constand and repeated attacks from the terrorists.
How can they 'behave' when the terrorists keep attacking them? | The Conspirator wrote: |
| Quote: | | I think your proposition is no different than aiding the extremists in destroying Israel. |
Israel is the one creating the extremists. |
From what I understand the extremists intend on eradicating the Jews. They also preach that Israel is intending on building a ‘Zionist empire’, as our friend CyanEyed.
So I guess it is Israel making the extremists simply by existing, but I double this is your conclusion. | horseatingweeds wrote: |
| Israel in not targeting civilians. |
They aren't doing much to stop them. They are bombing residential areas. Yesterday with family of seven children were killed when their house was bombed.
| Quote: |
| They even drop leaflets warning them to stay the hell away from places they know are targets. |
Yeah. Stay out of your homes. Very helpful... Israel shouldn't be bombing a city in the first place.
| Quote: |
| The blockade is meant to motivate the citizens and leaders to go after the bad guys. |
Well that is obviously violent, cruel and doomed to failure. Whoever thought that one up should be tried for manslaughter and locked up for life. So much for democracy (of which Lebanon is one)... hello violence as a political weapon. Who did you say the terrorists were again? | nopaniers wrote: |
| horseatingweeds wrote: | | Israel in not targeting civilians. |
They aren't doing much to stop them.
|
They're warning them. THEY ARE WARNING THEM. THEY ARE WARNING THEM. Before they attack.
Do pay attention.
| S3nd K3ys wrote: |
| They're defending themselves from constand and repeated attacks from the terrorists. |
Well this is a way that they are sure to provoke many more attacks for the next few decades. Good work.So, SendKeys. Imagine you're in the Gaza Strip. You get a leaflet warning you that the city is going to be bombed. Where are you going to go?
| nopaniers wrote: |
| S3nd K3ys wrote: | | They're defending themselves from constand and repeated attacks from the terrorists. |
Well this is a way that they are sure to provoke many more attacks for the next few decades. Good work. |
If Israel would quit pussy-footing around, they wouldn't have to worry about it. | nopaniers wrote: |
| So, SendKeys. Imagine you're in the Gaza Strip. You get a leaflet warning you that the city is going to be bombed. Where are you going to go? |
Away from the targets. To a school maybe. Someplace I know the Israelis won't attack.
How bout you? | nopaniers wrote: |
| Quote: | | They even drop leaflets warning them to stay the hell away from places they know are targets. |
Yeah. Stay out of your homes. Very helpful... Israel shouldn't be bombing a city in the first place. |
Yes, that is where the bad guys are. The citizens need to root them out like common criminals.
| nopaniers wrote: |
| Quote: | | The blockade is meant to motivate the citizens and leaders to go after the bad guys. |
Well that is obviously violent, cruel and doomed to failure. Whoever thought that one up should be tried for manslaughter and locked up for life. So much for democracy (of which Lebanon is one)... hello violence as a political weapon. Who did you say the terrorists were again? |
Blockades have been used forever. They are affective too. | horseatingweeds wrote: |
| Yes, that is where the bad guys are. |
The bad guys are the ones killing civilians. If the Israelis do that then they are the bad guys too.
| Quote: |
| Blockades have been used forever. They are affective too. |
There once was a "blockade" of Jerusalem where one woman ended up eating her child. It is cruel, and against international law to practice collective punishment. | S3nd K3ys wrote: |
| Away from the targets. |
Where is that exactly? You're living in the target. You aren't safe anywhere.
| Quote: |
| How bout you? |
I am not sure. Probably somewhere cool (but not the beach in case they start shelling it again) because the power has been bombed and it is the middle of summer.
Last edited by nopaniers on Fri Jul 14, 2006 11:24 pm; edited 1 time in total | nopaniers wrote: |
The bad guys are the ones killing civilians. If the Israelis do that then they are the bad guys too. |
Terrorists = Kill civilians on purpose to make a point.
Israel is TRYING to kill terrorists so they will STOP KILLING CIVILIANS.
| nopaniers wrote: |
There once was a "blockade" of Jerusalem where one woman ended up eating her child. It is cruel, and against international law to practice collective punishment. |
Hopefully, the population has sense enough to give up there beloved freedom fighters before they start eating babies. | horseatingweeds wrote: |
| nopaniers wrote: |
The bad guys are the ones killing civilians. If the Israelis do that then they are the bad guys too. |
Terrorists = Kill civilians on purpose to make a point.
Israel is TRYING to kill terrorists so they will STOP KILLING CIVILIANS.
|
Nicely stated. Too bad it will go largely ignored by the terrorist supporters.Israel is targetting Lebanon. They are targetting Beirut, home of some 1.8 million innocent people who were happily going about their daily lives. Forget characterizing all Lebanese as terrorists, Lebanese are lovely people. It is not alright start wars or to kill innocent people. It is not alright to punish innocent people for other people's crimes.
No one is characterizing ALL Lebanese as terrorists. Harboring criminals is a crime.
Nobody except you when you're trying to justify killing innocent people.
| horseatingweeds wrote: |
| The Conspirator wrote: | | Quote: | | I think your proposition is no different than aiding the extremists in destroying Israel. |
Israel is the one creating the extremists. |
From what I understand the extremists intend on eradicating the Jews. They also preach that Israel is intending on building a ‘Zionist empire’, as our friend CyanEyed.
So I guess it is Israel making the extremists simply by existing, but I double this is your conclusion. |
You can't put a fire out by throwing gasoline on it. And thats what Israel has been doing. Military tactics only work when duelling with another military not militants, especially unorganised militants. The only way to stop militants is too destroy whats motivating them. They are motivated by a hatred of Israel (not Jews inparticular, Israel) and every thing Israel has done and is doing only gives them more motivation, it adds fuel to the fire. And Israel has been doing that since its creation in the 40's. | nopaniers wrote: |
| Nobody except you when you're trying to justify killing innocent people. |
I'm not justifying it anymore than you are justifying terror activity.
| The Conspirator wrote: |
| The only way to stop militants is too destroy whats motivating them. They are motivated by a hatred of Israel (not Jews inparticular, Israel) and every thing Israel has done and is doing only gives them more motivation, it adds fuel to the fire. |
You mean give in to them?
Remove Israel?Every action is a reaction and for every action there is a reaction. Every thing that happens has been determined by what has happened before.
Every Israel attack dose nothing but infuriates the Palestinians thus filing there hatred and pushing more Palestinians into the arms of the militant groups.
If the Israeli government wonted to stop them (which it doesn't) it would stop infuriating the Palestinians. No more military attack, no more settlement, no more oppression.
Look at it from there point of view. Look at the entire situation from there point of view from the beginning. Imagine some one doing what the Israelis did and are doing to the Palestinians from the Palestinians point of view.
usa first located israil into the heart of arabs.(and i still don t know how arabs so stupidly sold their land to jews ..so dumm thing to do..).arabs got into fight to take back their land but they were not strong enough to beat up bully america..taking the massive support of usa began the israili
abuses against palestinians..are palestinians right to explode themselves to kill the jewish civillians?
noo..is israili right to kill palestinians whenever they want wherever they want? israil basically prisoned all the palestinians..they took their water their husbands their fathers..their will to live..palestinians don t have an army ..they hardly find a single gun..they have their stones and their lives..that s all they can use to fight israil who has invaded the palestinian land for years..they let their children blow themselves because that is the only way they know to strike back..
they kidnapped one soldier israil took away hundreds of palestinians and made them live in tiny cells where it is so hard to even move .. one would go insane there..does israilis want their soldier back?well palestinians want their lives back..israil dived into palestinians with the tanks and planes ,machine guns kills out people again..palstinians cry out again..
Hizbullah kidnapped two israili soldiers..why? because like the jews care about each other arab muslims care for each other too. they couldn t stand seeing their brothers cry again..
now israil is bombing lebanon who also doesn t have an army but hisbullah which consists of some gerilla force with rocket lunchers only..
when arabs kidnap one israili it is strictly terrorism.
when israili bombs another country destroys the airport, electric plants ,roads, villages.. it is self defence..that s what bloody america says to people..
usa invaded iraq with the excuse that they produced chemical and nuc weapons which were never found.they are threatening iran ,they are threatening syria..with their back up now israil is bombing lebanon ..
how far can this violent bully contry go?
Israel is after Hizbullah, not Lebanon.
Israel would invade Russia the same way, if Hizbullah were hiding there.
| S3nd K3ys wrote: |
Remember, eat a big breakfast and bring all your friends, because you're gonna be there a LONG time trying to rid the world of modern civilization. |
Tell Me,
What is Your Definition Of A Modern World?
A World Where America's Friends Can Throw Their Weight Around?
| S3nd K3ys wrote: |
Israel has been kicked out of that land so many times in the last 3,000 years it's not worth repeating. Israel is still there because that's what God wants. |
Have You Even Considered The Flipside Of That Statement.
Its Been Kicked Out So Many Times, MAYBE THATS WHAT GOD WANTS. Maybe its because God doesnt want Israel there that it keeps getting kicked out.
And before u say that if god didnt want it to exist he would have destroyed it permanently, consider this. If god wanted it to exist, he would have kept it there instead of letting it get kicked out
Last edited by CyanEyed on Sat Jul 15, 2006 7:10 pm; edited 1 time in total | CyanEyed wrote: |
| S3nd K3ys wrote: |
Remember, eat a big breakfast and bring all your friends, because you're gonna be there a LONG time trying to rid the world of modern civilization. |
Tell Me,
What is Your Definition Of A Modern World?
|
In the context we're discussing here: A world where cowardly thugs don't hide behind women while attacking children in schools and churches and sawing heads off of soldiers on TV while strapping bombs to their own children and having them go to school and blow themselves up, all in the name of God.
What's yours?
Seriously, cyan, that whole murdering to get people to switch to your religion went out last century.To the first post, I don't think you know what your talking about. The only way we will get anywhere in the mid-east is by backing Israel. We have given them financial and military support such as Apache Helicopters and F-16 jets.
We need to wipe out Palestine-Syria-Iran and find a way to beat Hezbollah.
These next few weeks may be the beginning of WWIII.
Stop Backing Israel at all times and unconditionlly, and start backing liberlism and democracy in the M.E. Mr. G Bush has started his campaign correctly by supporitng democracy and reforms in the M.E but he backed off recently, unfortunately. It's against the interest of America, and even Israel, to support Israel at all times even if Israel was WRONG!!
Last edited by bangala on Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
oh the irony,
Israel started attacking Lebanon killing loads of people. Lebanon return the favour so what does Israel do 
Call for help obviously.
| News TV Channel wrote: |
| Isreal needs international help |
No doubt Bush will be along to help faster than a lawyer to a car accident. | nopaniers wrote: |
| S3nd K3ys wrote: | | Away from the targets. |
Where is that exactly? You're living in the target. You aren't safe anywhere.
|
Well, I was just skimming thru and saw where he said it would be safe. you obviously and blatently lie and ignore facts, nopaniers. you and conspirator. you are in denial.
Isreal is targeting specific, militarily strategic targets, and often warns the civilians in that area that they will be doing so. This is the result of a civilized people. the iranian led hesbola are specifically going after citizens, which is usually the case with terrorists who still think that they can live in a civilized world by murder and deciept and cowardice. | Billy Hill wrote: |
| Well, I was just skimming thru and saw where he said it would be safe. |
So where would be safe in the Gaza Strip? When your city is being bombed and you cannot get away because you are surrounded on all sides by hostile troops, you are not safe. It is not possible to target such a densely populated area without causing many civilian casulaties. Something that the Israeli leaders know.
As an example a horrendous mistake, these people (in Lebanon, not Gaza) were fleeing, as they were told to by the Israeli army, when they were killed.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5184122.stm
| Quote: |
| Isreal is targeting specific, militarily strategic targets, and often warns the civilians in that area that they will be doing so. This is the result of a civilized people. |
Starting wars is not civilized. For what it's worth I think all people are civilized but people are flawed and make misjudgements.
The Israelis are targetting Lebanese infastructure. The roads, bridges, the power station, airport, the ports. These aren't military targets, but will only cause hardship for the Lebanese people. It doesn't hinder Hezbollah, instead it plays right into their hands, while innocent people (in Lebanon, Israel and Gaza) have to bear the pain.Israels ******. After this war so many people will be lining to join the militants who are fighting Israel.
If Israel wont's to survive than the Israelis better overthrow there government and put one in place that actually wont's peace.
[quote="S3nd K3ys"]
Do you know who Israel is fighting right now? They're not fighting some peace loving country that has done nothing wrong. Israel is defending herself ONCE AGAIN against massive attacks from terrorists. /quote]
Puhooaaaaa!!
This is the most funny thing I have ever heard s3..
Just be honest with yourself and reveal your hidden plans against over whole world. You are not willling to talk about it because this is the way you hide them.why don't you just say : yeah we are going to kill every muslim and prove our animosity! but it is not the way jewish people does, right? Just keep saying that you are defending yourself from "innocent woman and old poor people of palestine"..
| SainT wrote: |
Israel is after Hizbullah, not Lebanon.
Israel would invade Russia the same way, if Hizbullah were hiding there. |
I am not agree with you pal:(
Israel is attacking palestine and lebanon because she will attack SYRIA and IRAN. they are just cleaning the backdoor of their disliked country.. | Quote: |
| but it is not the way jewish people does, right? Just keep saying that you are defending yourself from "innocent woman and old poor people of palestine".. |
tolgaozbek there is no "way the Jewish people do things" the Jewish people are a very large and very diverse people. Do not generalize them.
This isn't about Judaism or the Jewish people, its about Israel. And though Israelis are Jews they are a small fraction of the Jewish people and do not represent the whole.
Edit: And just cause some one is Jewish doesn't mean that they support Israel. Just do a search for "Jews against Israel" on any search engine and you will come up with a bunch of sites made by Jews that are against Israel and Zionism.
Here I've done it for you. | CyanEyed wrote: |
| S3nd K3ys wrote: |
Israel has been kicked out of that land so many times in the last 3,000 years it's not worth repeating. Israel is still there because that's what God wants. |
Have You Even Considered The Flipside Of That Statement.
Its Been Kicked Out So Many Times, MAYBE THATS WHAT GOD WANTS. Maybe its because God doesnt want Israel there that it keeps getting kicked out.
And before u say that if god didnt want it to exist he would have destroyed it permanently, consider this. If god wanted it to exist, he would have kept it there instead of letting it get kicked out |
This quote is the most stupid thing I've read in this whole discussion. Let me remind you that this discussion was started about America’s response to this conflict, not about to who Israel should belong or what God would think of all this. So please start another topic for this religious bullshit.
But as it is mentioned anyway I'll briefly inform you on my opinion into this: I do not believe in a God who makes it impossible for anyone to have a home. And that's what this is all about: having a home! Both Israelis and Palestinians* are searching for a home, and they happen to fancy the same piece of the earth. No God has influence on this conflict; it is purely political, and most of all very, very complex.
* Everyone knows that the Israelis have always been kicked out anywhere they came, but most people forget it's all the same story with the Palestinians: they also got kicked out in any country they came.
This said, back to the subject of this discussion: America’s response.
I'll start with a basic fact; do you have any idea of the number of accusations against Israel that have been lodged at the UN? OVER 130!! And Each and every time USA vetoed the deal. So why doesn't America allow a proper research on this topic?
Whether or not America is right in doing so, it certainly makes Israel very self-confident in what they do, because the USA will make sure nothing can harm them. Last year Israel was convicted for building that wall around the Palestinian areas (at least 11 of the 12 international judges did so, only the American judge thought the wall was not contrary to the conventions of Geneva). But despite their conviction Israel continued building, and until today the UN has not undertaken any action, again because of the American veto.
Today we see the results of this too strong sense of self-confidence of Israel, and the best way to stop all this and achieve a peaceful solution is to make Israel feel they are no longer allowed to do whatever they want. The only nation that has the power to do this is the USA. In my opinion these sort of situations in which one single country can make the difference are very dangerous, but I believe it can work out if Bush would think for a second what he's aiming at. Will he let the conflict escalate until another couple of hundreds have died and there won't be any other solution than a military intervention, or will he sort out things peacefully by talking?
The choice is up to you America!The Conspirator,
You tell me to not to generalize them, I am totally aggre with you. When I was at college, I had a jewish friend and we hadn't argue about anything because she was also a jewish with an ability to look objective perspective over Israel's politics. What I try to imply is that small fraction which doesn't represent the whole..
Also I thing the same way about judaism and jewish people. My ancestor's was ottomans and jewish people were very rich and they were also entitled to participate on govermental organisations(like military, finance and so..).
Israel has been kicked out of that land so many times in the last 3,000 years it's not worth repeating. Israel is still there because that's what God wants.
I guess it is hard to disagree with anyone who knows what God wants.
| diverden wrote: |
Israel has been kicked out of that land so many times in the last 3,000 years it's not worth repeating. Israel is still there because that's what God wants.
I guess it is hard to disagree with anyone who knows what God wants. |
Modern Israel is no more ancient Israel than modern Egypt is ancient Egypt.
Nether country is the modern version of the old, they are modern nations that have the names of the ancient nations. The ancient nation haven't existed sine they where concurred by the Romans.
Plus there are many Jews who disagree that the modern Israel is Israel on religious ground. In fact most Jews were against Zionism and the creation of Israel until the end of WW2.This is unbelievable, I know many Jews who I like a lot, but the Israeli government is a terroristic government, who is killing civilians right now, and it has nothing to do with whatever god is thinking (!)
| tuncay wrote: |
| This is unbelievable, I know many Jews who I like a lot, but the Israeli government is a terroristic government, who is killing civilians right now, and it has nothing to do with whatever god is thinking (!) |
As opposed to the Palestinian government who is publically supporting terrorists killing innocent Israelis. Oh wait, 
- The Palestinian government is a terrorist organization. Neither side is innocent. | Soulfire wrote: |
As opposed to the Palestinian government who is publically supporting terrorists killing innocent Israelis. Oh wait, - The Palestinian government is a terrorist organization. Neither side is innocent. |
The palestinian government is NOT a terrorist organization. they are trying to live on their own lands. Until Israel has established everything was ok..[quote="Soulfire"] | tuncay wrote: |
| Neither side is innocent. |
Once everyone understands THAT, progress might be made. It's this one-sided, ignore anything except what I want to believe attitude that causes so much of the strife in this area. Just look at this forum to see how one-sided thinking solves issues. Lebanese and Palestinian citizen are killed accidently BECAUSE OF their terrorist party/govt.
If Hizballah's soldiers weren't such pussies, they would invade Israel instead of hiding behind Lebanese civilians and putting them into danger.
They know, though, that if they stop hiding behind women and kids, they will be dead very very fast.
Israel's ideology is peace, while those Islamic Extremists' ideology is forcing EVERYBODY to convert their religion to Islam.
Guess what, moronic extremists, people have different opinions and thoughts! They can't be forced into one religion or way of thinking! (recall Soviet Russia and read the book 1984 to understand how horrible such world can be)
Who's wrong now?
| Quote: |
| The palestinian government is NOT a terrorist organization. they are trying to live on their own lands. Until Israel has established everything was ok.. |
So you're saying the Palestinian government is not terrorist and the Palestinians are not guilty at all?
My bad, it must have been a JEW that blew up that bus in Israel. Sorry for the mistake.
Seriously, I'm not even THAT one-sided.
While the Hamas organization may not be directly carrying out the terrorist attacks, they are supporting them and not trying to stop them - that makes them just as guilty as the terrorist in my opinion. It's sort of a "guilt by association" thing. | HoboPelican wrote: |
Once everyone understands THAT, progress might be made. |
1) Egypt understands that. Egypt is at peace.
2)You better start at the UN. The first proposed resolution to quell the conflict was all against Israel. All actions and requirements were made of Israel and none of hamas and none of hesbollah.
There is clear bias against Israel's right to exist. Only when those that want Israel exterminated are exterminated will there be peace. Israel has tried in the past. (I hope) she's done being nice about it. | SainT wrote: |
....
Who's wrong now? |
uhhh, everyone over there? Israel lost any moral high ground when they started breaking international law in their escalation of hostilities. Mind you I am not defending or attacking either side. I only have sympathy with the civilians being killed because of pig-headed governments unable to live together."pig-headed governments unable to live together" - with that I agree.
But who can't live next to who?
Israel can live in peace next to peace seeking country, yet no-one can live next to religious extremists.
| S3nd K3ys wrote: |
2)You better start at the UN. The first proposed resolution to quell the conflict was all against Israel. All actions and requirements were made of Israel and none of hamas and none of hesbollah. |
again, it seems you are only reporting partial truths. They called for a unilateral cease fire and release of the 2 Israelis. Facts own you again.
| Quote: |
| A UN team sent to Lebanon to seek a solution to the ongoing crisis and EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana were united Sunday in calling for a cease-fire but also urged the release of two Israeli soldiers, |
| SainT wrote: |
| Israel's ideology is peace, |
Israels currant and past actions disagree with you.
| Soulfire wrote: |
| While the Hamas organization may not be directly carrying out the terrorist attacks, they are supporting them and not trying to stop them - that makes them just as guilty as the terrorist in my opinion. It's sort of a "guilt by association" thing. |
The Palestinians authority doesn't and never had the power to do anything about the militants, the militants are more power full than them and have grater support (which is Israels fault, when you oppress people as the Palestinians have been oppressed you push them toward extremism). If the Palestinians authority did try and stop the militants they would be descried by them. | The Conspirator wrote: |
| If the Palestinians authority did try and stop the militants they would be descried by them. |
But that is exactly what they should have done. By not trying to stop them they are seen as supporting them. You have to stand up for what you belief, as an individual or government, or you loose any sense of honor.Not to mention that Hamas won power, and have no wish to disarm themselves.
I think, the situation is more complicated:
US is not the mother and Israel is not their child!
US is a dog and Israel is representing the worms in it!
I am talking of governments, of course, respectively! Not the people!
And they are doing it well, and as soon, as all is finished, they will go and look for another carrion, and China is already in the focus....
You think, I mean Isreal is a parasite? Well, you are right, but a very intelligent one and dangerous! I am adoring them for not being that stupid, than the rest of the world! My ratio tells me, its good to be a
Zionist, then I will soon have a peace of the world in my pocket, as my people will control the world by the time being. But my heart prefers peace of mind....so
Fribee
The whole situation between Israel and the palastines is not an easily solvable problem. If it were, it would already have been solved. But there is also a number of misconceptions about there problems. Many of them have to do with the way we are being fed information by the media and governments.
A few I would like to share with you and maybe get you comments on.
1- We see the Palestine people as terrorists and or friends of terrorists. Most people from neighbouring countries see them as freedomfighters and guerillas. I am not saying they are one or the other. But I do wonder how you would react if an islamic group would take over a large part of your country because of what is written in the Koran. Me for one, I would be furious and most likely join a resistance group.
2- On both sides there is corruption and propaganda. The Israelic culture is more of a western culture and therefor they are more easy for us to understand. But not all Palastinian people are terrorists or underdeveloped parasites (as some of seem to believe). Palestinian people are not dumber or more intelligent than we are. They have a different culture, come from a different background and past. But they are not inferior and a majority of them would prefer a peacefull solution.
3- of course Israel has the right to defend itself. But they go overboard with this quite often. There is an old and very truthfull saying: violence only becomes violence. What kind of message does it send to the people in the region if such a powerfull and modern state as Israel claims to be, has to resort to bombing civillians in order to fight their enemies. No matter what happens, you can not use WMD's against civillians. In fact, i think you should not want to have any civillian cassualties. I know this is not possible in war, but then I say: maybe you should not want war.
4- unless we start sharing a bit more with each other, this conflict will eventually escalate into a world wide war. a war between poor and rich, east and west. This idea worries me very much. Especially since -not sharing with each other- is the basis of our kapitalist system. Greed is what makes the world turn round. (money is a mere symbol for greed).
5. I am afraid that some very large and powerfull industries and people have a lot to gain from a persistent state of chaos and agression in the middle east. the wole weapons industry is making overtime with all the conflicts going on right now. They sure as hell don't want peace in the middle east. And they are the biggest contributors to the american political system and their politicians.
Is it a conspiracy? I don't think so. But it is a fact that war only profits a few. peace profits many, but can be destroyed by a few..... plse think about this.
[quote="me:]If the Palestinians authority did try and stop the militants they would be descried by them.[/quote]
Stupid spell sheck,
If the Palestinians authority did try and stop the militants they would be destroyed by them.
And if that happens the situation would be worse.
[quote="Soulfire"] | Quote: |
My bad, it must have been a JEW that blew up that bus in Israel. Sorry for the mistake.
Seriously, I'm not even THAT one-sided.
|
really i wonder , do you have even a small sympathy for the babies
that israil killed in last month.
or do you think they deserved to die. I think this picture says all:
| AftershockVibe wrote: |
| I'm unsure as to why the average american automatically takes the side of Israel. Granted, they are in a VERY difficult situation but that does not make the Israeli government above reproach. |
b'coz US countries economy mostly depend on zionist people. And most of the media owner are zionist, as like Fobers. It's quite natural for them to support Israil b'coz their whole body is controlled by Israil, not by themselves. They have brain in head but not have the capability to think about it.Yes, we should move away from Iraq. We are there for no reason, its bogus!
lol everytime i see such subject , i laugh my ass off..
oki let's see
arab says: we dont like israel. they kill our sons, burn our houses, and do alot of aweful things
Av. american says: arab are terrorists, muslim are terrorists, everybody who doesnt agree with us is a terrorist
israel says: we want mo' land 
who is right and who is wrong .. it dosent really matter.
cuz it wont solve a thing.
i am and arab and a muslim, does this make me a terrorist.. nop. i dont think so .
but still most people treat me as if i am a terrorist.
american and israeli gov are paranoid
and they transfere their fear to all gov around the globe
do you know how many muslim around the world ?
go to the cia factbook and search .
do you really think all these people wants to kill you ?
if you do ? then why do you think you are still alive 
hehe ..
you really should start to look out of that shell you puttin yourselves in ..
world wont know peace unless issues are delt with more thinking.
do not rush into the results.
try to know why the trouble has started the first place..
not everybody is a natural born killers..
and in the end arab and israel .. will live in peace ..
but 1st both sides must think of the other befor they think of themselves..
and about america supporting israel.. well this doesnt really concern arabs !
it's america's business and we (arabs) cant say a thing about it..
and about Hamas, and Hisbolah. these are some desperate warriors. who have been fighting for their cause (i am not with, or against them)
but as a muslim.. i have to tell you this..
if a muslim warrior is at a (gihad) stat of mind .. he is more then happy to sacrifice everything for the cause..
you cant fight a (gihad) warrior .. ask israeli gov .. they'll tell you the same thing..
when you kill a gihad warrior .. 4~10 more will become gihad warrior..
they live to produce more warriors and to die .. that's their goal in life..
only talking with them will make them reconsider
anyway .. i know all this will go in vain.. cuz no one listen nor read
and yall will call me a terrorist who encourage killing more american .. lol
.. in fact i really dont care . we arab are used to be wrongly accused as being terrorist, although we arent
.. Without going thru your post line by line and dismantling it, I'll just ask a question...
| Quote: |
if a muslim warrior is at a (gihad) stat of mind .. he is more then happy to sacrifice everything for the cause.. |
What, exactally, is the 'cause'?? I'm confused... several Muslims I've talked to in reference to the 'cause' have clearly defined it as basically submission to Islam. The same old crap that's been going on for 2 thousand years.
Wait, let me ask one more question, why do you think Israel is always so willing to concede to those around her? Yet every time she does, she gets ****ed and lied to and attacked again? And don't you realize that they kill your sons because you kill their daughters and mothers and grand parents??
Oh, wait, ONE more question... WHY, EXACTALLY, does it "not matter who is right and who is wrong" ?? 
| S3nd K3ys wrote: |
Wait, let me ask one more question, why do you think Israel is always so willing to concede to those around her? Yet every time she does, she gets ****ed and lied to and attacked again? And don't you realize that they kill your sons because you kill their daughters and mothers and grand parents?? :roll: |
Hang on...In what way is Israel always ready to concede ? The original UN resolutions on this 242 and 338 were passed in 1967. Since then Israel has deliberately stalled all attempted peace accords which involved a Palestinian land settlement and the US has helped out by vetoing a total of 42 security council resolutions on the issue.
Israel is always ready to concede to the US - that I would agree with, since it can hardly say no to its protector and financial supporter. It has not noticably been so when the UN or other bodies have asked for something.
Israel's policy has been articulated by it's leaders on several occasions.
Moshe Dyan expressed it as :
| Quote: |
| we should tell the Palestinians that we have no solution for you, that you will live like dogs, and whoever will leave will leave, and we'll see where that leads |
Basically it is a wait until they get what they want by default. Virtually the entire world endorsed a modification of UN 242 to include a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza, but, once again the US vetoed (under instruction from Kissinger) in 1976.
Camp David, then Oslo both granted Israel increasing amounts of the occupied land - Oslo was unworkable because it divides the Palestinians into little unconnected 'cantons' and gives most of the land with water resource to Israel. Check the proposed map out :
Compare that with :
This confirms that the policy is working in that if the Israelis drag it on long enough the Palestinians will get almost nothing.
Regards
Chris | Bikerman wrote: |
Hang on...
... in 1967.
|
Keep going back... you're getting warmer...
