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Turning points





S3nd K3ys
This brings a lot of questions to mind and clears up some existing ones if you think about it just a minute. (Long read, but worth it.)

Quote:
Sixty-three years ago, Nazi Germany had overrun almost all of Europe and hammered England to the verge of bankruptcy and defeat, and had sunk more than 400 British ships in their convoys between England and America for food and war materials.

The U.S. was in an isolationist, pacifist, mood, and most Americans and Congress wanted nothing to do with the European war, or the Asian war.

Then along came Pearl Harbor, on December 7, 1941, and, in outrage, Congress unanimously declared war on Japan, and the following day on Germany, which had not attacked us. It was a dicey thing. We had few allies.

France was not an ally; the Vichy government of France aligned with its German occupiers. Germany was not an ally; it was an enemy, and Hitler intended to set up a Thousand Year Reich in Europe. Japan was not an ally; it was intent on owning and controlling all of Asia. Japan and Germany had long-term ideas of invading Canada and Mexico, and then the United States over the north and south borders, after they had settled control of Asia and Europe.

America's allies then were England, Ireland, Scotland, Canada, Australia, and Russia, and that was about it.

All of Europe, from Norway to Italy, except Russia in the east, was already under the Nazi heel.

America was not prepared for war. America had stood down most of its military after WWI and throughout the depression; at the outbreak of WWII, there were army units training with broomsticks over their shoulders because they didn't have guns, and cars with "tank" painted on the doors because they didn't have tanks. And a big chunk of our navy had just been sunk and damaged at Pearl Harbor.

Britain had already gone bankrupt, saved only by the donation of $600,000,000 in gold bullion in the Bank of England that was the property of Belgium and was given by Belgium to England to carry on the war when Belgium was overrun by Hitler. Actually, Belgium surrendered one day, because it was unable to oppose the German invasion, and the Germans bombed Brussels into rubble the next day anyway just to prove that they could. Britain had been holding out for two years already in the face of staggering shipping losses and the near-decimation of its air force in the Battle of Britain, and was saved from being overrun by Germany only because Hitler made the mistake of thinking that the Brits were a relatively minor threat that could be dealt with later and turning his attention to Russia, at a time when England was on the verge of collapse in the late summer of 1940.

Russia saved America's butt by putting up a desperate fight for two years until the U.S. got geared up to begin hammering away at Germany.

Russia lost something like 24,000,000 people in the sieges of Stalingrad and Moscow, 90% of them from cold and starvation, mostly civilians, but also more than 1,000,000 soldiers. More than a million.

Had Russia surrendered, then, Hitler would have been able to focus his entire campaign against the Brits, then America, and the Nazis would have won that war.

I say this to illustrate that turning points in history are often dicey things. And we are at another one.

There is a very dangerous minority in Islam (assisted through complacence by the majority—ed.) that either has, or wants and may soon have, the ability to deliver small nuclear, biological, or chemical weapons, almost anywhere in the world, unless they are prevented from doing so.

The Jihadis, the militant Muslims, are basically Nazis in Kaffiyahs -- they believe that Islam, a radically conservative (definitely not liberal!) form of Wahhabi Islam, should own and control the Middle East first, then Europe, then the world, and that all who do not bow to Allah should be killed, enslaved, or subjugated. They want to finish the Holocaust, destroy Israel, and purge the world of Jews. This is what they say.

There is also a civil war raging in the Middle East -- for the most part not a hot war, but a war of ideas. Islam is having its Inquisition and its Reformation today, but it is not yet known which will win -- the Inquisition, or the Reformation.

If the Inquisition wins, then the Wahhabis, the Jihadis, will control the Middle East, and the OPEC oil, and the U.S., European, and Asian economies, the techno-industrial economies, will be at the mercy of OPEC -- not an OPEC dominated by the well-educated and rational Saudis of today, but an OPEC dominated by the Jihadis.

You want gas in your car? You want heating oil next winter? You want jobs.

You want the dollar to be worth anything? You had better hope the Jihad, the Muslim Inquisition, loses, and the Islamic Reformation wins.

If the Reformation movement wins, that is, the moderate Muslims who believe that Islam can respect and tolerate other religions, and live in peace with the rest of the world, and move out of the 10th century into the 21st, then the troubles in the Middle East will eventually fade away, and a moderate and prosperous Middle East will emerge.

We have to help the Reformation win, and to do that we have to fight the Inquisition, i.e., the Wahhabi movement, the Jihad, Al Qaeda, the Islamic terrorist movements. We have to do it somewhere. We cannot do it nowhere.

And we cannot do it everywhere at once. We have created a focal point for the battle now at the time and place of our choosing, in Iraq.

Not in New York, not in London, or Paris, or Berlin, but in Iraq, where we did and are doing two very important things.

(1) We deposed Saddam Hussein. Whether Saddam Hussein was directly involved in 9/11 or not, it is undisputed that Saddam has been actively supporting the terrorist movement for decades. Saddam is a terrorist.

Saddam is, or was, a weapon of mass destruction, who is responsible for the deaths of probably more than 1,000,000 Iraqis and 2,000,000 Iranians.

(2) We created a battle, a confrontation, a flash point, with Islamic terrorism in Iraq. We have focused the battle. We are killing bad guys there, and the ones we get there we won't have to get here, or anywhere else. We also have a good shot at creating a democratic, peaceful Iraq, which will be a catalyst for democratic change in the rest of the Middle East, and an outpost for a stabilizing American military presence in the Middle East for as long as it is needed.

World War II, the war with the German and Japanese Nazis, really began with a "whimper" in 1928. It did not begin with Pearl Harbor. It began with the Japanese invasion of China. It was a war for 14 years before America joined it. It officially ended in 1945 -- a 17 year war -- and was followed by another decade of U.S. occupation in Germany and Japan to get those countries reconstructed and running on their own again ... a 27-year war. World War II cost the United States an amount equal to approximately a full year's GDP - adjusted for inflation, equal to about $12,000,000,000,000 dollars, WWII cost America more than 400,000 killed in action, and nearly 100,000 still missing in action.

The Iraq war has, so far, cost the U.S. about $160 billion, which is roughly what 9/11 cost New York. It has also cost about 2,200 American lives, which is roughly 1/2 of the 3,000 lives that the Jihad snuffed out on 9/11. But the cost of not fighting and winning WWII would have been unimaginably greater -- a world now dominated by German and Japanese Nazism.

Americans have a short attention span, now, conditioned I suppose by 60-minute TV shows and two-hour movies in which everything comes out okay.

The real world is not like that. It is messy, uncertain, and sometimes bloody and ugly. Always has been, and probably always will be.

The bottom line here is that we will have to deal with Islamic terrorism until we defeat it, whenever that is. It will not go away on its own. It will not go away if we ignore it.

If the U.S. can create a reasonably democratic and stable Iraq, then we have an "England" in the Middle East, a platform, from which we can work to help modernize and moderate the Middle East. The history of the world is the clash between the forces of relative civility and civilization, and the barbarians clamoring at the gates. The Iraq war is merely another battle in this ancient and never-ending war. And now, for the first time ever, the barbarians are about to get nuclear weapons. Unless we prevent them. Or somebody does.

We have four options

1. We can defeat the Jihad now, before it gets nuclear weapons.

2. We can fight the Jihad later, after it gets nuclear weapons (which may be as early as next year, if Iran's progress on nuclear weapons is what Iran claims it is).

3. We can surrender to the Jihad and accept its dominance in the Middle East, now, in Europe in the next few years or decades, and ultimately in America.

4. Or, we can stand down now, and pick up the fight later when the Jihad is more widespread and better armed, perhaps after the Jihad has dominated France and Germany and maybe most of the rest of Europe. It will be more dangerous, more expensive, and much bloodier then.

Yes, the Jihadis say that they look forward to an Islamic America. If you oppose this war, I hope you like the idea that your children, or grandchildren, may live in an Islamic America under the Mullahs and the Shar’ia, an America that resembles Iran today.

We can be defeatist peace-activists as anti-war types seem to be, and concede, surrender, to the Jihad, or we can do whatever it takes to win this war against them.

The history of the world is the history of civilizational clashes, cultural clashes. All wars are about ideas, ideas about what society and civilization should be like, and the most determined always win.

Those who are willing to be the most ruthless always win. The pacifists always lose, because the anti-pacifists kill them.

In the 20th century, it was Western democracy vs. communism, and before that Western democracy vs. Nazism, and before that Western democracy vs. German Imperialism. Western democracy won, three times, but it wasn't cheap, fun, nice, easy, or quick. Indeed, the wars against German Imperialism (WWI), Nazi Imperialism (WWII), and communist imperialism (the 40-year Cold War that included the Vietnam Battle, commonly called the Vietnam War, but itself a major battle in a larger war) covered almost the entire century.

The first major war of the 21st Century is the war between Western Judeo/Christian Civilization and Wahhabi Islam. It may last a few more years, or most of this century. It will last until the Wahhabi branch of Islam fades away, or gives up its ambitions for regional and global dominance and Jihad, or until Western Civilization gives in to the Jihad.

It will take time. It will not go with no hitches. This is not TV.

Remember, perspective is everything, and America's schools teach too little history for perspective to be clear, especially in the young American mind.

The Cold war lasted from about 1947 at least until the Berlin Wall came down in 1989. Forty-two years. Europe spent the first half of the 19th century fighting Napoleon, and from 1870 to 1945 fighting Germany.

World War II began in 1928, lasted 17 years, plus a 10-year occupation and the U.S. still has troops in Germany and Japan. World War II resulted in the death of more than 50,000,000 people, maybe more than 100,000,000 people, depending on which estimates you accept.

The U.S. has taken a little more than 2,000 KIA in Iraq. The US took more than 4,000 Killed in action on the morning of June 6, 1944, the first day of the Normandy Invasion, to rid Europe of Nazi Imperialism. In WWII, the US averaged 2,000 KIA a week for four years. Most of the individual battles of WWII lost more Americans than the entire Iraq war has done so far.

But the stakes are at least as high . . . a world dominated by representative governments with civil rights, human rights, and personal freedoms . . . or a world dominated by a radical Islamic Wahhabi movement, by the Jihad, under the Mullahs and the Shar’ia (Islamic law).

I do not understand why the American Left does not grasp this. They favor human rights, civil rights, liberty, and freedom, but evidently not for Iraqis. In America, absolutely, but nowhere else.

Three hundred thousand Iraqi bodies in mass graves in Iraq are not our problem? The U.S. population is about twelve times that of Iraq, so let's multiply 300,000 by twelve. What would you think if there were 3,600,000 American bodies in mass graves in America because of George Bush? Would you hope for another country to help liberate America?

"Peace Activists" always seem to demonstrate where it's safe, in America. Why don't we see Peace Activist demonstrating in Iran, Syria, Iraq, Sudan, North Korea, in the places in the world that really need peace activism the most?

The liberal mentality is supposed to favor human rights, civil rights, democracy, multiculturalism, diversity, etc., but, if the Jihad wins, wherever the Jihad wins, it is the end of civil rights, human rights, democracy, multiculturalism, diversity, etc. Americans who oppose the liberation of Iraq are coming down on the side of their own worst enemy.

If the Jihad wins, it is the death of Liberalism. Everywhere the Jihad wins, it is the death of Liberalism. And American Liberals just don't get it.


Raymond S. Kraft is a writer and lawyer living in Northern California.


From Social Sense

http://socialsense.blogspot.com/
qbawler311
Don't expect anyone to read that much BS
S3nd K3ys
qbawler311 wrote:
Don't expect anyone to read that much BS




Perhaps you'd be so kind as to point out the BS portion(s)?? Because I didn't see much in there that wasn't factual

Or is it all so true and so valid you have to despel the entire article without the courtesy of even reading it in order to keep your (in)sanity??

Laughing Laughing Laughing

History owns you.

Laughing Laughing Laughing
qbawler311
By "BS" I mean way more words then I would consider reading. Please continue to argue with yourself.
S3nd K3ys
qbawler311 wrote:
By "BS" I mean way more words then I would consider reading. Please continue to argue with yourself.


Oh. I see. My bad.

I thought education might be something you could use. But it's ok to be willfully ignorant.

I guess. Cool

And did you actually mean "capable of reading" or did you really mean "consider reading" ?? Wink
HoboPelican
S3,

Don't you ever get tired of posting BS? Laughing Gad, it's becoming a joke. Stirring things up is cool, but you almost never have any thing intelligent to add to the discussion. You responses, typically, are so full of invective and have so little real thought that it effectively keeps any rational person from even posting.

It seems that instead of actually thinking for yourself, you just cut and paste some crackpot page and then just insult anyone who disagrees. It was funny at first, but, <yawn> it's just boring now. Maybe you should reinvent yourself. Maybe become a militant activist for bestiality? Maybe become a scientologist and blast the boards with tech? Anything new for a change.
Laughing
S3nd K3ys
HoboPelican wrote:
it effectively keeps any rational person from even posting.


I see you are keeping pace with the likes of most other so-called rationalists. Laughing

Quote:
Maybe become a militant activist for bestiality?


If only bestiality were the important topics of the day. Wink
tolgaozbek
ly 1/2 of the 3,000 lives that the Jihad snuffed out on 9/11

come on guys .. you still believe that muslims do it huh?? If I were you I wouldn't trust those jewishs.. not even turn my back to it..
S3nd K3ys
tolgaozbek wrote:
l
come on guys .. you still believe that muslims do it huh?? If I were you I wouldn't trust those jewishs.. not even turn my back to it..


Oh, so it was jews that flew those planes into our buildings? Confused

Rolling Eyes

Seriously, if it's not Moslims, then who?

Christians? Athiests?

Who?
qbawler311
Ok I finally gave in and read your article, my ignorant self is aware of all the information provided in the article. I agree that we have a very real enemy in the middle east and that we should never forget that we need to kill them before they reign terror on us all.

I believe we need to be less sympathetic to our enemies. US soldiers die because we are too busy trying to figure out who is the enemy and who isn't. All Irqi's, Iranians, ... arabs... whatever, should be viewed as a potential terroists and killed. Outside of the US mainly Arabs are muslims. If they don't exist then our threat doesn't exists. It will be less costly (in money and American lives) to get rid of them all then sort them out. We need to give higher priority to American lives and stop trying to take care of the world.

World Peace is a fantasy like Unicorns and Pixies
Helios
S3nd K3ys wrote:
tolgaozbek wrote:
l
come on guys .. you still believe that muslims do it huh?? If I were you I wouldn't trust those jewishs.. not even turn my back to it..


Oh, so it was jews that flew those planes into our buildings? Confused

Rolling Eyes

Seriously, if it's not Moslims, then who?

Christians? Athiests?

Who?


If Jews are planning to control the world (remember that topic?),
then why not?
LOL ROFL LMAO etc Laughing

tolgaozbek, you're a ******' racist.


I tell you who... Hamsters. They are planning to take over the world, they crashed those planes and they will build their kingdom on Earth.

BLAME THE HAMSTERS. Laughing
tolgaozbek
Quote:

If Jews are planning to control the world (remember that topic?),
then why not?
LOL ROFL LMAO etc Laughing

tolgaozbek, you're a ****' racist.


I tell you who... Hamsters. They are planning to take over the world, they crashed those planes and they will build their kingdom on Earth.

BLAME THE HAMSTERS. Laughing


thanks for your high quality post dear.. First I will ask bondings and other moderators whether we are entitled to swear others using ***s.

So I am a racist and s3 or others not?? they are yelling out propaganda stories here and trying to imply "usa has a god given right to put an end to everyone's life, especially when he/she (even it) is living on valuable resources. Don't try to convince anyone that usa declared war on Iraq just because of saddam hussain's dictatorship. The main reason for that was nothing but to compensate the foreign and domestic debits. So this was a tactic which governors used to perform on other countries.:

If there seems a crisis on the horizon, the push it away to another country. And this is called Democracy in Americans Literature...
tolgaozbek
S3nd K3ys wrote:
tolgaozbek wrote:
l
come on guys .. you still believe that muslims do it huh?? If I were you I wouldn't trust those jewishs.. not even turn my back to it..


Oh, so it was jews that flew those planes into our buildings? Confused

Rolling Eyes

Seriously, if it's not Moslims, then who?

Christians? Athiests?

Who?


As a native American, haven't you heard about the fact that "Not even a single jewish" killed during 9/11?? How come someone like you(who reads and researches a lot I think) doesn't brood about this issue. I am not saying It was jewish people who lies behind all the mess, but also I didn't like the sound of that news.

Try to be honest with yourself and not even let any of your jewish friend,gfriend to spoil you valuable thoughts.. Please answer this because I do really want to know about what is the opinions of a native usa citizen.(If I were in america, I would definetely ask the same things to everyone there)
Scorpio
Helios wrote:
S3nd K3ys wrote:
tolgaozbek wrote:
l
come on guys .. you still believe that muslims do it huh?? If I were you I wouldn't trust those jewishs.. not even turn my back to it..


Oh, so it was jews that flew those planes into our buildings? Confused

Rolling Eyes

Seriously, if it's not Moslims, then who?

Christians? Athiests?

Who?


If Jews are planning to control the world (remember that topic?),
then why not?
LOL ROFL LMAO etc Laughing

tolgaozbek, you're a ****' racist.


I tell you who... Hamsters. They are planning to take over the world, they crashed those planes and they will build their kingdom on Earth.

BLAME THE HAMSTERS. Laughing


LOL ROFL LMAO and what not?

Now isnt that funny?
Hilarious more like?

The fact is that everybody who belongs to a religion get annoyed when either their religion or members of their religion are accused of something like this.

That applies to everybody, muslims and jews are no different

It would be better to refer to terrorists as a religion by themselves instead of classifying them as muslims or jews(even if they are)
S3nd K3ys
scorpio wrote:
Helios wrote:
S3nd K3ys wrote:
tolgaozbek wrote:
l
come on guys .. you still believe that muslims do it huh?? If I were you I wouldn't trust those jewishs.. not even turn my back to it..


Oh, so it was jews that flew those planes into our buildings? Confused

Rolling Eyes

Seriously, if it's not Moslims, then who?

Christians? Athiests?

Who?


If Jews are planning to control the world (remember that topic?),
then why not?
LOL ROFL LMAO etc Laughing

tolgaozbek, you're a ****' racist.


I tell you who... Hamsters. They are planning to take over the world, they crashed those planes and they will build their kingdom on Earth.

BLAME THE HAMSTERS. Laughing


LOL ROFL LMAO and what not?



The fact is that everybody who belongs to a religion get annoyed when either their religion or members of their religion are accused of something like this.

That applies to everybody, muslims and jews are no different

It would be better to refer to terrorists as a religion by themselves instead of classifying them as muslims or jews(even if they are)



Poor, misguided individual. I thought you would learn by now. You go shooting off at the mouth without thinking and look what happens... you get an accute case of Anal-Cranium Inversion.


Laughing Laughing Laughing




I don't believe in God. I don't have a 'religion'.




Shocked





Didn't see that coming, did you? Laughing Laughing Laughing

Actually, you did, I've said it on these forums over and over. You just missed it. As usual. You typically do miss many pertinant facts from what I've seen.

Anyway, I do agree somewhat with this

Quote:
It would be better to refer to terrorists as a religion by themselves instead of classifying them as muslims or jews(even if they are)


But I would get banned for doing that. The FACT that all the terrorists on 9/11 (and the majority of other attacks) were carried out by Moslims. Not Jews. Not Christians. Not Catholics.

Moslims. Radical Moslims.
polarBear
Most of which happened to be saudis if I recall, and I've been waiting for the invasion of Saudi Arabia and the Bin Laden's Family Manor just since 9/11.

When do yo, who evidently has the only truth there can be, think that's going to happen?
S3nd K3ys
polarBear wrote:
Most of which happened to be saudis if I recall, and I've been waiting for the invasion of Saudi Arabia and the Bin Laden's Family Manor just since 9/11.

When do yo, who evidently has the only truth there can be, think that's going to happen?


Your recollection is correct. They were MOSTLY Saudi's, and ALL Moslims. Wink

As for when it will happen (the attack on Saudi Arabia)? It should have happened 15 to 30 years ago, and most definately directly AFTER Sept 11.

Lets just hope it's not too late.

:troll:
Thank God for George W. Bush having the balls to deal with this problem when no other President before him would.
:/troll:
nopaniers
This guy clearly doesn't know what he's talking about, but that doesn't stop him. He doesn't even get his list of the allies right.
tolgaozbek
I don't care about your or any others religious believes s3. what I have wanted to know is what are thoughts of americans people about 9/11.

You said it was muslims. interesting.. It is a "pertinent" remark though;)
S3nd K3ys
tolgaozbek wrote:
I don't care about your or any others religious believes s3.

You said it was muslims. interesting.. It is a "pertinent" remark though;)


I'm not sure I understand you... what are thoughts of americans people about 9/11.

I'm not a mind reader, so i don't know what others think. I would venture a guess that American People are:

Pissed about 9/11 in general, as you might expect.
Pissed at the terrorist, murdering cowards that did it.
Pissed at the Government for letting it happen.
Pissed at the Government for not doing something about this problem decades ago.

Then there are those that are pissed at the Government for doing something about it.

And finally there are those that don't give a ****ing **** what happens, so long as they get thier chance to attack GW and the Republican Administration.




Yes. I said it was Moslims. Are you saying they were Jews? Jews trying to destroy the very same economic structure and facility that has made so many so much? Do you have ANY idea how rediculous that sounds? Also, do you have a source to substantiate your claims?
suntzu3500
And then there's me, who is pissed at the incompetence of the people who planned this, who was against the iraq invasion from the start... Iraq was further than Iran or North Korea from nuclear weapons, we knew this at the time, hell, everyone knew it at the time, there are far worse human rights abuses in africa then there ever were in Iraq... Don't get me wrong, we started this mess, now we've got to clean it up. We should be in for the duration.

Iraq was poorly planned from the start, poorly executed, and short-sighted, as well as unnessicary. Muslims are not our enemy. Catholics are the enemies of the free world!

Well, why not? The IRA is motivated by religious beliefs... The Catholics wont stop until the world is ruled by Ireland.

Yeah right.

(Disclaimer: Athiest - Centerist - I supported the war in Afghanistan and still belive that's right - Bush is an idiot, but I don't think he's the devil - I'm a proud american - All of this means none of these issues I can be based on... If you think of any more, bash me and I'll add them...)
nopaniers
s3nd k3ys wrote:
Perhaps you'd be so kind as to point out the BS portion(s)?

No problem. It is all opinionated and bigotted rubbish, not to mention being immoral.

Quote:
Sixty-three years ago,

63 years ago was 1943.

Quote:
The U.S. was in an isolationist, pacifist, mood,

Actually, no. In 1943 the US had been at war for two years. It is however true that the US was extremely late into the war, perhaps becuase there were Nazi sympathizers (Bush's grandfather was one, and Lindberg was another) in the US.

Quote:
Then along came Pearl Harbor, on December 7, 1941, and, in outrage, Congress unanimously declared war on Japan

Obviously this guy can't add.

Quote:
America's allies then were England, Ireland, Scotland, Canada, Australia, and Russia, and that was about it.

Ireland was neutral. He doesn't even know who the allies were.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency
The actual list of allies in WW2 (in order that they declared war) is:
Poland, United Kingdom (and her large empire which included India and Pakistan and today makes up most of the Commonwealth countries), France, Australia, New Zealand, Nepal, Newfoundland, Tonga, South Africa, Canada, Denmark, Norway, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Malta, Greece, Yugoslavia, and the Soviet Union (and her empire which included much of Central Asia, and the Baltic states).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allies_of_World_War_II

Quote:
All of Europe, from Norway to Italy, except Russia in the east, was already under the Nazi heel.

Hello from Britain!

Quote:
Russia saved America's butt by putting up a desperate fight for two years until the U.S. got geared up to begin hammering away at Germany.

By June 1944 the Germans had been defeated at Stalingrad (which is considered the turning point in the war) and Kursk and were in a retreat which only ended in Berlin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kursk

So now we know what sort of a person we're dealing with: He doesn't even know the basic facts, but he is very loud and opinionated.

Quote:
The Jihadis,

Actually Jihad means strive. Jihad is an essential part of faith for every person who has faith, who has to stive against oppression and persecution because for their belief in God.
http://islam.about.com/library/weekly/aa022201a.htm

He then continues with a factless rant, laced with his own bigotry:
Quote:
[Muslims] are basically Nazis in Kaffiyahs

Before revealing that he thinks that the US control the world's resources:
Quote:
You want gas in your car? ... You want the dollar to be worth anything?

So basically he is appealing to greed. And we all thought it was WMD!

Quote:
And we cannot do it everywhere at once. We have created a focal point for the battle now at the time and place of our choosing, in Iraq.

Iraq was a secular country. Teriq Aziz, the foreign minister, was a Christian for example. Iraq was the only country in the region without Sharia law.

Quote:
(1) ... it is undisputed that Saddam has been actively supporting the terrorist movement for decades.

No, it's not! Saddam persecuted radical Islam, brutally. He did not support Al Qaeda. He was described by Bin Laden as an apostate, worse than the US.

Quote:
Saddam is, responsible for the deaths of probably more than 1,000,000 Iraqis and 2,000,000 Iranians.

Iraq (supported by the US) was fighting Iran, against becoming a theocracy. He blames Iraq for being radical Islam and fighting against radical Islam at the same time. I think he is just confused.

Quote:
(2) ... We are killing bad guys there, and the ones we get there we won't have to get here, or anywhere else.

The number of terrorist attacks has gone up since Iraq, and is now at it's highest level since 1984 (according to the US state department). These figures don't include attacks within Iraq. Killing one person creates two people who hate you.

And his central idea: that terrorists fighting in Iraq means they aren't elsewhere is wrong. In response to the war in Iraq we have had the London bombings, Bali, and Madrid. The horrors of Iraq are increasing terrorism around the world.

Quote:
outpost for a stabilizing American military presence in the Middle East

Now he has two reasons to be in Iraq: Greed and power.

Quote:
The Iraq war has, so far, cost the U.S. about $160 billion,


No. The cost of the Iraq war is around $300 billion. This is approximately 1 1/2 times as much as it is estimated to cost to solve poverty in Africa and save 30,000 lives a day. It would pay for around 14 million children to attend school for free, or 5 million extra teachers. This is in addition to increasing the US military budget to approximately $500 billion per year, which is approximately as much as the entire rest of the world combined, and around 18 times as much as China who have a population many times that of the US.
http://nationalpriorities.org/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=182

It has also cost in excess of 100,000 lives which around is the same as around 200 years of worldwide terrorist attacks.

Quote:
2. We can fight the Jihad later, after it gets nuclear weapons (which may be as early as next year, if Iran's progress on nuclear weapons is what Iran claims it is).

Iran claims that it's nuclear program is for peaceful purposes. Perhaps he doesn't understand the difference between right wing Americans and Iranians. I know I get confused too sometimes...

LOL. He is off his rocker...

Quote:
If you oppose this war, I hope you like the idea that your children, or grandchildren, may live in an Islamic America under the Mullahs and the Shar’ia, an America that resembles Iran today.

Yes. He has completely lost it. The guy is completely balmy. He has left reality and isn't looking back.

Quote:
Those who are willing to be the most ruthless always win. The pacifists always lose, because the anti-pacifists kill them.

Yes. Those demostrators. They couldn't bring down the Berlin Wall. Ghandi couldn't make India independant, this whole Glasnost and Perestroika thing is nothing like a good war, and Solidarity will never work. You should be EVIL! Yes, EVIL! No don't look at the Ukraine, East Timor, South Africa, or Kyrgystan. They don't exist. Don't look at Suu Kyi. Do listen to Jesus when he says to do good to those who persecute you. Look at the success war had in Vietnam and Iraq. Killing is good!

Quote:
Remember, perspective is everything, and America's schools teach too little history for perspective to be clear, especially in the young American mind.

This from someone who can't name the allies in WW2.

Quote:
"Peace Activists" always seem to demonstrate where it's safe, in America. Why don't we see Peace Activist demonstrating in Iran, Syria, Iraq, Sudan, North Korea, in the places in the world that really need peace activism the most?

Protests against the war spanned the globe:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2895171.stm (Iran)
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/02/16/iraq/main540782.shtml (Syria)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2873045.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/2875555.stm

So this guy's reason for the US to be in Iraq are: greed and military power. To do this, he says that the US should be more immoral than anyone else. Are you sure he's not from the US administration? I think what he needs is a girlfriend and a holiday.
HoboPelican
Oh darn, facts Wink

Is Sendkeys gonna run away from this discussion, too? Laughing
i_am_mine
s3nd k3ys doesn't run away from discussions.
he runs away from facts.
thats a fundamental law.
if need be he'll start a completely new thread devoid of either logic or fact and in some cases...BOTH.
S3nd K3ys
I'm just putting it up there for you kids to play with and think about. I really do appreciate you doing some of the donkey work on bringing out other information, too. (Regardless of whether it's valid or true, which in this case, not all is from EITHER side.) Wink

If I get time I'll go thru some of the replies and point out some of the descrepencies. Cool
HoboPelican
S3nd K3ys wrote:
I'm just putting it up there for you kids to play with and think about.


BS!

You put stuff up to stir the pot. Facts own YOU! And it seems to be a pattern that when you are proven wrong, you run. That's ok, since you almost never have anything to add of your own thoughts. As everyone is noticing, you just cut and paste someonelses thoughts and then start insulting those who get upset.

Face it, dude, you are a troll. That is your one claim to flame Wink
S3nd K3ys
HoboPelican wrote:
S3nd K3ys wrote:
I'm just putting it up there for you kids to play with and think about.


BS!

You put stuff up to stir the pot. Facts own YOU! And it seems to be a pattern that when you are proven wrong, you run.
...


Enragement ensues...



Laughing Laughing Laughing
And just because YOU are in denial about many (or most) of the FACTS I put up here, doesn't mean they're NOT FACTS. Wink

BTW, thanks for the compliment. Cool
HoboPelican
S3nd K3ys wrote:










Again, you say nothing Laughing You are wasting time, we are still waiting for you to reply the facts in nopaniers last post.

...or to skulk away! Laughing
polarBear
There's an automated way of ignoring s3, at least if you have firefox.

this is it
HoboPelican
polarBear wrote:
There's an automated way of ignoring s3, at least if you have firefox.

this is it


Thanks for the link, polarBear. I looked it over and it looks interesting, but I want to check it out a bit before installing it. Wink Gotta be careful, right?
CyanEyed
S3nd K3ys wrote:
If I get time I'll go thru some of the replies and point out some of the descrepencies. Cool



Excuses Excuses Excuses Liar . S3, u shouldn write a book with all these get out excuses but let me warn you: no frihoster will buy it seein as we've heard them all.
I'll comment on the next thread u start. i wont have to wait very long.



I think admin can close this. i doubt that the thread starter will have anything useful to add here
S3nd K3ys
CyanEyed wrote:

Excuses Excuses Excuses Liar . S3, u shouldn write a book


Sorry, stirring up politics is only a hobby for me. I don't have vast amounts of time to spend researching and refuting all the data there to point out a few obvious flaws in his analogy. Wink
HoboPelican
S3nd K3ys wrote:

Sorry, stirring up politics is only a hobby for me. I don't have vast amounts of time to spend researching and refuting all the data there to point out a few obvious flaws in his analogy. Wink


In other words, you are wrong.

In other words, you have time to search out articles to stir things up, but no time to think for yourself.

In other words, you do not have the balls to admit when you are wrong.

In other words, you are a troll.
Soulfire
Lol, he's a troll because he's opinionated, and his opinion differs than most on this board - that makes him a troll?

*Sighs*

Welcome to FriHost Brick wall
HoboPelican
Soulfire wrote:
Lol, he's a troll because he's opinionated, and his opinion differs than most on this board - that makes him a troll?

*Sighs*

Welcome to FriHost Brick wall


Actually, I think he's a troll beause of his stated purpose of "stirring the pot" and then instead of posting rational arguments, he resorts to invective and name calling. When faced with facts, he disappears. I'd call that trolling. I am open to changing my mind though.

You know very well that I don't have any issues with opinionated people who differ from my views. You are one of them. Wink We seldom see eye to eye, but I do respect your posts and have learned from some of them.
Actually, I would be responding to Sendkeys in the same way if he agreed with my views.
felisleo
as nopanier stated iraq was a secular country.in fact it fought brutally against radical islam.al-queida was idiologically against the baas regime.another fact; in his first years saddam was succesful on many reforms in iraq.in iran-iraq war saddam was supported by us.

thanks to bloody us iraq now is far more related to terrorism than it ever was.


s3 as always your quote (other people s opinions) is not based on facts.

and why isn t this thread in the sticky middle east conflict thread?
nopaniers
I'm still waiting...

It seems even the US Senate realizes that there was no connection between Iraq and Al Qaeda.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5328592.stm
HoboPelican
felisleo wrote:
....
and why isn t this thread in the sticky middle east conflict thread?


Because it has been inactive since the stickie went into effect. Now that it is becoming active.....


-LOCKED-

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