Why do you want your kids to go to church? Or not?
Ok, for the sake of this argument, lets exclude the part where they will go to "hell" if they don't or otherwise not. I am directing this argument towards the topic of whether the inculcations of a religion, such as Christianity, will make one a happy or unhappy person. Whether it will make one more of a free thinker or a tape recorder? Whether it uses the right techniques (fear based ones) to inculcate principles of honesty, or whether the method is not the most appropiate one?
Please don't limit your discussion to my questions, but feel free to rip them apart...
Why do I want my kids to go to Church? Hrm. I want them to go to Church because I believe it is right, and I want them to experience the same joy and happiness of God and Jesus that I am experiencing.
The problem is too many people come to Church in fear that something bad will happen to them. This is why I like the Catholic Church, which preaches hope and salvation, versus some other Churches which teach fear, Hell, death, and destruction.
Why not? Cause its a cult, you go and what do you hear? Not "fallow your own path, find you own truths", not "Think, question and learn things for there is no higher god than the truth and the truth can only be found through though, questions and knowledge" no your told what to think, what to believe, your told what the "truth" is and if you don't believe it, your going to hell to suffer for all eternity and that a cult in my book.
hmmmm I'm gonna be taliking about islam. Children don't have to go to the mosque. But a father as an edcucator, is responsible before god for the muslim edcucation of his children, so he has to show them what he thinks and what he believes in, what its all about, because soon they're gonna become men, and no one has the right to oblige them to choose a religion (about 14 or 15 years old for the boys), so it is in islam, people are free, and if tey aren't convinced about islam, all their action are not accepted bu god. So for children it s important that they go to the mosque, I think the first time I went to a mosque while believing in what I did, was whan I was 19 and 1/2. Cause I decided to becomemuslim at that time. While being a child I've been there maybe once and I had no idea about what it realy was this big white place.
| Soulfire wrote: |
Why do I want my kids to go to Church? Hrm. I want them to go to Church because I believe it is right, and I want them to experience the same joy and happiness of God and Jesus that I am experiencing.
The problem is too many people come to Church in fear that something bad will happen to them. This is why I like the Catholic Church, which preaches hope and salvation, versus some other Churches which teach fear, Hell, death, and destruction. |
You seem to have a good point in your first |P. The word believe is tempting, but I guess most parents raise their children in what they believe is right... not a lot of certainty there... but I understand. I also think it's great that if you feel you have a joyful life because of such inculcation, you want your children to experience it as well.
In the flip side, while a religion might bring you happiness, it usually leaves little room for self deliberation. I apologize before hand, for I have not said that everyone's individual experience with religion lacks of deliberation, but many times it does. When there is no deliberation, we act by feeling (or habit) and unfortunately feelings are not always the path to truth. YET! Feeling can sure bring you happiness... That is good, right? They say that it's easier for an ignorant to be happy than it is for a wiseman... yet, happiness is the ultimate good as Aristotle might write in his Ethics...
In regards to fear... Many times I've heard, if you don't accept Jesus, you'll go to Hell. Actually even worse, as a kid, going to church I was usually very upset, because I thought that since my grandpa wasn't a christian, he was going to go to hell - (place of fire and suffering, for clarification.) Is this not fear? Do you think it's correct to oppose such a pressure on a child's life?
They say don't sin because you'll be condemned... OK, this psychological process seems to do it's purpose - stop people from sinning. But wouldn't it be better to inculcate our society into not sinning because it is morally wrong, as opposed to because you'll suffer from it? Think about that... | The Conspirator wrote: |
| Why not? Cause its a cult, you go and what do you hear? Not "fallow your own path, find you own truths", not "Think, question and learn things for there is no higher god than the truth and the truth can only be found through though, questions and knowledge" no your told what to think, what to believe, your told what the "truth" is and if you don't believe it, your going to hell to suffer for all eternity and that a cult in my book. |
Why do you always continue to assume that I am told what I believe, that Christians are told what to believe? They are FREE-THINKING individuals just as everyone else, but their paths and their truths take them to Christianity.
Nowhere was I forced into Christianity, nowhere was I told what to believe, nowhere was I told what to think, and nowhere was I told the truth. I saught those myself, and found them in Christianity. | Soulfire wrote: |
| The Conspirator wrote: | | Why not? Cause its a cult, you go and what do you hear? Not "fallow your own path, find you own truths", not "Think, question and learn things for there is no higher god than the truth and the truth can only be found through though, questions and knowledge" no your told what to think, what to believe, your told what the "truth" is and if you don't believe it, your going to hell to suffer for all eternity and that a cult in my book. |
Why do you always continue to assume that I am told what I believe, that Christians are told what to believe? They are FREE-THINKING individuals just as everyone else, but their paths and their truths take them to Christianity.
Nowhere was I forced into Christianity, nowhere was I told what to believe, nowhere was I told what to think, and nowhere was I told the truth. I saught those myself, and found them in Christianity. |
Soulfire, you said you were born into Christianity... as a kid you were taken to church and inculcated the religious ideals which you now uphold. You didn't suddenly realize, you didn't deliverate: "This is IT!" you simply grew believing it. To an extent, we are all told what to believe, it's a psycological panorama, it's the way we usually become the citizens we are.
Proof: You are walking down the street and you see a lady between 19-26 yrs old. She is wearing a short clothing, sexy appeal, a lot of make up, high shoes. And you see this person leaning to a car talking to an older gentleman.
You see this panorama and the first thought that comes to your mind is, oh look, it's a prostitute. Is she really? I guess the probablility is high, but perhaps she is dessed up for a play and is speaking to her father. She is not necesarely a prostitute, but most of us assume she is. We assue lots of things in the process of thinking, these assumptions come from experience and inculcation through our lives. We were told to believe that girl is a prostitute... sort of the same way you were told Jesus is the Lord. | Soulfire wrote: |
| The Conspirator wrote: | | Why not? Cause its a cult, you go and what do you hear? Not "fallow your own path, find you own truths", not "Think, question and learn things for there is no higher god than the truth and the truth can only be found through though, questions and knowledge" no your told what to think, what to believe, your told what the "truth" is and if you don't believe it, your going to hell to suffer for all eternity and that a cult in my book. |
Why do you always continue to assume that I am told what I believe, that Christians are told what to believe? They are FREE-THINKING individuals just as everyone else, but their paths and their truths take them to Christianity.
Nowhere was I forced into Christianity, nowhere was I told what to believe, nowhere was I told what to think, and nowhere was I told the truth. I saught those myself, and found them in Christianity. |
I never said you were forced, I said told. There s a difference. You go to church and what dose the preacher say? H tels you what to believe, he tels you to believe that Jesus was resurrected, that he died for your sins and so on. And telling a person what to believe is telling them what to think. You choose to believe it, but that doesn't change the fact that in church, you are told to believe it. | Quote: |
| I never said you were forced, I said told. There s a difference. You go to church and what dose the preacher say? H tels you what to believe, he tels you to believe that Jesus was resurrected, that he died for your sins and so on. And telling a person what to believe is telling them what to think. You choose to believe it, but that doesn't change the fact that in church, you are told to believe it. |
I don't know any single person on the world who bases his whole knowledge only on his personal research. At school we are told that 2 + 2 = 4, that water melts in the temperature 100 C, and that every human has certain rights. Later, we are told how to prove these statements. We are told what to do by our job consultants, we are told how to solve our problems by psychologists, and we are told how to recover from illnesses by a doctor. No normal person protest against being told about things that kind, because we have respect and trust for these people's experience and authority.
For me, the same situation is about the Church. I know a lot of wonderful priests, who are very wise, peaceful and understanding, and they tell me what I should do to find the divine peace too. I respect them for who they are and I have really experienced how helpful are their advices. [Of course, not all of the priests are so wonderful, some of them must have gone really bad, but I had the luck to meet much more of the first kind].Why do you peopel allways attack one little part of what I say insted of taking tit as a whole?
I said thought, question and resech You need to ask the questions, do reserch on the subject to gain the knolage on the subject and think about it all.
In church you not only are told what to think and what to beleve, you are aslo told that if you don't, you will suffer for all eternity in a lake of fire .
Do you see the problom with that?
| Quote: |
| No normal person protest against being told about things that kind, because we have respect and trust for these people's experience and authority. |
Theres a difference between respect and obedience, just excepting what you are told with out questing it, thinking about it and learning about it is obedience. And obedience is not a good thing. | The Conspirator wrote: |
| Why do you peopel allways attack one little part of what I say insted of taking tit as a whole? |
I didn't intend to attack anyone, I'm just trying to show my personal opinion. If you interpreted it that way, I'm sorry 
| Quote: |
In church you not only are told what to think and what to beleve, you are aslo told that if you don't, you will suffer for all eternity in a lake of fire .
Do you see the problom with that? |
It seems that you don't visit church that often . That's true, there are some priests who still prefer to frighten their listeners with that kind of words. It seems that they are personally really scared and frightened, and imagine God as a vengeful old king sitting on a throne. Luckily, more and more people realise that Christianity is the religion of hope and happiness. The greek word of 'Gospel' - 'Evangelion' means exactly 'Good News'. Christianity brings you good news, that true unconditional love does exist, that you can break off your egoism and start to live differntly, that you don't have to be afraid of death. Maybe when you think about Christianity, you think about the medieval vision of it, which really flattered the wonderful message of Bible.
At the end of my high school every student had to prepare a presentation on a chosen topic. I did it about different visions of the Last Judgement in the art. While collecting sources for my presentation I realised how different is the message of the Bible from what this 'medieval' version of it. If you want, I can get further into that matter.
| Quote: |
| Theres a difference between respect and obedience, just excepting what you are told with out questing it, thinking about it and learning about it is obedience. And obedience is not a good thing. |
I learn and think a lot about theology, and the more I learn, the more amazing it appears to me. That's why I don't have enough of Christianity if I meet some really horrible people calling themselves Christians, I just know enough good about it 
.I understand what your saying but eternal damnation is part of the doctrine and at some point they will have to preach it. There are really good presets and preachers out there and there are bad (televangelists, all of them, all of those money hungry televangelist sons of the devil) but good or bad, the preach the doctrine and the doctrine says that those who don't believe suffer forever in hell.
| The Conspirator wrote: |
| There are really good presets and preachers out there and there are bad (televangelists, all of them, all of those money hungry televangelist sons of the devil) but good or bad, the preach the doctrine and the doctrine says that those who don't believe suffer forever in hell. |
Well, not exactly. This is what the catholic church says on that matter. [Quotes from the Catechism of the Catholic Church].
| CCC 1260 wrote: |
| "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery." Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity. |
| CCC 1033 wrote: |
| We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."612 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.613 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell." |
| CCC 1057 wrote: |
| Hell's principal punishment consists of eternal separation from God in whom alone man can have the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs. |
Sounds a bit different from what you wrote | Quote: |
| I never said you were forced, I said told. There s a difference. You go to church and what dose the preacher say? H tels you what to believe, he tels you to believe that Jesus was resurrected, that he died for your sins and so on. And telling a person what to believe is telling them what to think. You choose to believe it, but that doesn't change the fact that in church, you are told to believe it. |
I go to Church, because I agree. That's where my free-thinking choice and spiritual paths take me. He tells me what's in the Bible, and the Bible is what I believe in. In a way, you are correct, but you make it sound like we didn't choose and make it sound like we're forced.
| Quote: |
| I understand what your saying but eternal damnation is part of the doctrine and at some point they will have to preach it. There are really good presets and preachers out there and there are bad (televangelists, all of them, all of those money hungry televangelist sons of the devil) but good or bad, the preach the doctrine and the doctrine says that those who don't believe suffer forever in hell. |
You're correct here as well, eternal damnation is in the Bible and part of the doctrine of Christianity. Does it come up often at my Church? Not at all. Our pastor makes it a point that we go out and evangelize and try to save as many people as possible from eternal damnation.
Now, it's preached, but our Church does not make it a focal point like so many others. People shouldn't be scared into Christianity, because you'd be using it for the wrong reason.You know... I'd just like to invite you to analize those beliefs which you uphold... If you already do - then Congrats. But deliverate on teh topic with an open mind and don't infrindge your ideals upon what you read or heard some one else at some point in your life say.
They say: "If you don't accept Jesus as your Lord, you'll suffer for eternity"? Around those lines, right?
Can you explain, in a logical system how this makes any sence to you...
Why do you have to make one fear in oder to make him/her a morally correct citizen?
| Soulfire wrote: |
| Quote: | | I never said you were forced, I said told. There s a difference. You go to church and what dose the preacher say? H tels you what to believe, he tels you to believe that Jesus was resurrected, that he died for your sins and so on. And telling a person what to believe is telling them what to think. You choose to believe it, but that doesn't change the fact that in church, you are told to believe it. |
I go to Church, because I agree. That's where my free-thinking choice and spiritual paths take me. He tells me what's in the Bible, and the Bible is what I believe in. In a way, you are correct, but you make it sound like we didn't choose and make it sound like we're forced. |
Again, I didn't say anything about force. I said when you go to church that you are told what to believe and that is is what happens in church. You are told what to believe and what to think.
| Quote: |
| Quote: | | I understand what your saying but eternal damnation is part of the doctrine and at some point they will have to preach it. There are really good presets and preachers out there and there are bad (televangelists, all of them, all of those money hungry televangelist sons of the devil) but good or bad, the preach the doctrine and the doctrine says that those who don't believe suffer forever in hell. |
You're correct here as well, eternal damnation is in the Bible and part of the doctrine of Christianity. Does it come up often at my Church? Not at all. Our pastor makes it a point that we go out and evangelize and try to save as many people as possible from eternal damnation.
Now, it's preached, but our Church does not make it a focal point like so many others. People shouldn't be scared into Christianity, because you'd be using it for the wrong reason. |
Again, its part of the doctrine so at some point it has to be said.
Note: There are ways of saying things with out actually saying things. For instants if you say "Only through Christ can you be saved." giving that it is common knowledge that eternal damnation is part of the doctrine, that is a way (intentionally or other wise) that those who do not believe will go to hell forever.And that's where our Church stands. Jesus is the only way. They don't really preach on Hell, they just say that only through Jesus can you go to Heaven.
| The Conspirator wrote: |
Again, its part of the doctrine so at some point it has to be said.
Note: There are ways of saying things with out actually saying things. For instants if you say "Only through Christ can you be saved." giving that it is common knowledge that eternal damnation is part of the doctrine, that is a way (intentionally or other wise) that those who do not believe will go to hell forever. |
Hmmm.... have you read what I wrote above? The Catechism of the Catholic Church does not say that those who do not believe will go to hell. It says that such people have the chance to be redeemed if they search for the truth in their lifes. And hell is not a 'punishment' for those who did 'evil' things in their lifes. Hell means to be separated from God, just as heaven means inity with Him. And 'going' to heaven or hell depends only on if you personally want to stay with God [no matter how you call Him], on your decisions taken during your life. | The Conspirator wrote: |
| I said when you go to church that you are told what to believe and that is is what happens in church. You are told what to believe and what to think. |
I have to agree here...
Proof: | Soulfire wrote: |
| Jesus is the only way |
Did you figure this out yourself, or simply heard it so many times that it got infringed in your thoughts to the point that you take these words as yours and make it an ultimate reality with no space for reconsideration.
Pardon me here, I really don't mean to be mean, or threathen your beliefs, simply challange your thoughts... | the_mariska wrote: |
| The Conspirator wrote: |
Again, its part of the doctrine so at some point it has to be said.
Note: There are ways of saying things with out actually saying things. For instants if you say "Only through Christ can you be saved." giving that it is common knowledge that eternal damnation is part of the doctrine, that is a way (intentionally or other wise) that those who do not believe will go to hell forever. |
Hmmm.... have you read what I wrote above? The Catechism of the Catholic Church does not say that those who do not believe will go to hell. It says that such people have the chance to be redeemed if they search for the truth in their lifes. And hell is not a 'punishment' for those who did 'evil' things in their lifes. Hell means to be separated from God, just as heaven means inity with Him. And 'going' to heaven or hell depends only on if you personally want to stay with God [no matter how you call Him], on your decisions taken during your life. |
I like your beliefs, I wish more believed what you believed.
The problem is the vast majority of churches preach the doctrine that only through Jesus can you be saved and if your don't believe you go to hell and hell is a place of torment and or torture for all eternity and though the preset or preacher may not won't to talk about that, at some point they have to.I wonder if part of the problem is that churches today preach a watered down, compromised, false gospel. Hell is seperation from God, which is considered the highest and most severe punishment. The image of fire and whatnot is mostly an invention, because nobody (obviously) can truly tell us what Hell is like (though people have tried, heh).
It is my personal belief that those with a relationship with God, and a relationship with Jesus will go into Heaven. And like what has been previously mentioned, doing "bad" things doesn't mean you'll go to Hell, because people seem to forget - we live under a forgiving God. And Jesus says that anyone can get to Heaven through him. The only people who do not go to Heaven are those who deny Jesus as Lord.
Jesus tells us this when he says, quote "I am the way, the truth, and the life. The only way to the Father is through me."
| The Conspirator wrote: |
I like your beliefs, I wish more believed what you believed.
The problem is the vast majority of churches preach the doctrine that only through Jesus can you be saved and if your don't believe you go to hell and hell is a place of torment and or torture for all eternity and though the preset or preacher may not won't to talk about that, at some point they have to. |
Heh, I found that topic at last .
Well, fortunately this isn't only my personal opinion, but what I wrote was taken exactly from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Well, I know that the situation with Christians churches is complicated because there are so many of them and they all teach something different, what may make other people have enough of Christians. Well, the Catholic Church is the world's largest, and has the biggest authority, so maybe it's not as bad as you think. I know that there are still many catholics and christians that would like to hermetically close from all the people that don't belong to their community. They forget that the most important message of God is to love.ill go to the church with my son for know the right and bad...attitude.. 
On the 'for church' side:
Church teaches a moral code. Something that schools seem either unwilling or unable to do. OTOH, my kids should be learning their moral code from their parents and close family.
On the 'against church' side:
I don't want my kids indoctrinated with any biased religious bunkum. I want them to be old enough, and wise enough, to decide what they want to believe for themselves.
Conclusion:
No church for my kids until they're old enough, and wise enough, to make an informed decision for themselves.
It's purely immoral for a parent to, in a sense, brainwash their child into a religion. They should at least be old enough to realize there are multiple religions and they should be able to choose whether they want to be involved at all and, if so, which one they wish to be involved in.
While religion supposedly teaches morals, so does good parenting and good role models, so I don't deem it necessary for one to go to church to have good morals. Many of my religious friends (me being an atheist) have worse morals than I do from my perspective. And excuse me, if I may say, having prejudice toward those who don't believe in your god(s) or a certain group of people such as homosexuals is not good morals. I think religion INDIRECTLY (maybe accidentally, I don't know) teaches prejudice to a degree. It is also often used as a means of seclusion from other people who don't share your beliefs...which doesn't help anybody. No, I'm not saying all religious people are like that, but a large percentage of them are whether they try to be or not.
I also would rather my child not base their entire life around a single book or a story that has never been proven true in almost any sense.
If my kid wishes to venture the way of religion and worshiping spiritual beings, so be it. I'll support them as long as it makes them happier and doesn't hurt them in any way. If they choose not to believe, so be it. As an atheist, I believe it's silly to worship something that, in my eyes, doesn't exist, but if they choose to follow the religious path I'm not going to hinder or keep them from doing so. They have as much of a right to choose as I once did.
I'm not really planning on sending my children to church, but if they do I suppose it does help to foster some sort of community bond through a common culture. Personally I always found it interesting when people knew so many others purely through a religion. It also helps with social networking in the future.
| Che wrote: |
| In regards to fear... Many times I've heard, if you don't accept Jesus, you'll go to Hell. Actually even worse, as a kid, going to church I was usually very upset, because I thought that since my grandpa wasn't a christian, he was going to go to hell - (place of fire and suffering, for clarification.) Is this not fear? Do you think it's correct to oppose such a pressure on a child's life? |
This doesn't make a great deal of sense to me. You can't scare someone into belief, because if they don't believe in the first place then the threat does not exist. You can say 'you'll die if you step on the cracks in the pavement' - and, yes, death is a heavy threat - but it would have no effect on me because I don't believe that pavement cracks will kill me.
This might conceivably work once someone already believes in God, but if they truly subscribe to the widely recognised Christian dogma ('your sins are paid for by an all-loving creator - now because you genuinely believe this you're obviously going to try to behave') then fear isn't necessary at all. I certainly haven't met anyone who really understands Christian theology who will play on people's fears - you can't play on them, because they either won't exist or they won't be necessary. I'm not pretending that eternal damnation doesn't feature on the bible - of course it does - but it's completely useless as an evangelism technique in my opinion.
| The Conspirator wrote: |
In church you not only are told what to think and what to beleve, you are aslo told that if you don't, you will suffer for all eternity in a lake of fire .
Do you see the problom with that? |
I see no more of a problem with this than with an atheist telling me not to believe in a god, and that if I do I will be pouring my freedom down the drain. Either side might be wrong. It would insult my intelligence if someone withheld from me their deeply felt certainty of the truth, just because they thought I would swallow it whole. If someone believes that everyone who eats pasta with invoke the wrath of Zeus then it is their moral duty to tell me.
I would be interested to know where I get my sense of right and wrong if there is no god. This is a genuine question because, despite all of the above, I am actually not a Christian (just thought I'd get that out there before someone hits me with the 'brainwashed' stick) and have no idea whether or not god exists. The opening chapter of Mere Christianity by C. S. Lewis makes a very strong argument for god as the root of our 'moral' (that word shouldn't even be used in a secular sense, in my humble opinion) 'convictions' (there goes another 'loan' word!). You can teach children manners, kindness, love, and acceptable, functional social behaviour without religion; what you can't teach them is why it's 'right' to behave as such. You can say 'for the good of society', 'for ultimate happiness', but I would say that you can't explain why a functioning society or personal joy are 'good' in themselves.
I appear not to have answered the original question. Oopsie. | meet in rio wrote: |
| Che wrote: | | In regards to fear... Many times I've heard, if you don't accept Jesus, you'll go to Hell. Actually even worse, as a kid, going to church I was usually very upset, because I thought that since my grandpa wasn't a christian, he was going to go to hell - (place of fire and suffering, for clarification.) Is this not fear? Do you think it's correct to oppose such a pressure on a child's life? |
This doesn't make a great deal of sense to me. You can't scare someone into belief, because if they don't believe in the first place then the threat does not exist. You can say 'you'll die if you step on the cracks in the pavement' - and, yes, death is a heavy threat - but it would have no effect on me because I don't believe that pavement cracks will kill me.
| The Conspirator wrote: | In church you not only are told what to think and what to beleve, you are aslo told that if you don't, you will suffer for all eternity in a lake of fire .
Do you see the problom with that? |
I would be interested to know where I get my sense of right and wrong if there is no god. This is a genuine question because, despite all of the above, I am actually not a Christian (just thought I'd get that out there before someone hits me with the 'brainwashed' stick) and have no idea whether or not god exists. The opening chapter of Mere Christianity by C. S. Lewis makes a very strong argument for god as the root of our 'moral' (that word shouldn't even be used in a secular sense, in my humble opinion) 'convictions' (there goes another 'loan' word!). You can teach children manners, kindness, love, and acceptable, functional social behaviour without religion; what you can't teach them is why it's 'right' to behave as such. You can say 'for the good of society', 'for ultimate happiness', but I would say that you can't explain why a functioning society or personal joy are 'good' in themselves.
I appear not to have answered the original question. Oopsie. |
Do you really believe you can't scare somebody into a belief? I think you should look back into history a bit before making a statement like that (of course, it's your opinion, but reality and history would disagree).
In regards to your last paragraph: Religion was a tool invented to control the masses 
I think your last paragraph suits that theory quite nicely. | liljp617 wrote: |
Do you really believe you can't scare somebody into a belief? I think you should look back into history a bit before making a statement like that (of course, it's your opinion, but reality and history would disagree).
In regards to your last paragraph: Religion was a tool invented to control the masses I think your last paragraph suits that theory quite nicely. |
I don't know how to say this without sounding hostile, bus could you give a few examples? I'm not being arsey - I promise. I just fail to see how you can threaten someone with something so totally ridiculous to them. That said, I'm a wishy-washy literature student and quite honestly know squat about history, so do enlighten me.
I don't have any beef with your second statement, but it is rather a sweeper.People are scared into 'belief' all the time. It is a standard technique of social control known and used by politicians and ruling elites regularly.
A quick example - soon after 9/11 in the US an opinion poll showed that a large majority of Americans (90% in some polls) believed that Saddam was either directly or indirectly responsible for the outrage.
This was a result of deliberate and concerted misinformation which played on peoples fear of terrorism to supress critical reporting and analysis - it was extremely successful.
In 1984 Orwell descibes the 'perpetual war' as a powerful control mechanism and today it could be argued that the 'war on terror' is an example of this in action. Fear is a very useful mechanism of control.....
| meet in rio wrote: |
| liljp617 wrote: | Do you really believe you can't scare somebody into a belief? I think you should look back into history a bit before making a statement like that (of course, it's your opinion, but reality and history would disagree).
In regards to your last paragraph: Religion was a tool invented to control the masses I think your last paragraph suits that theory quite nicely. |
I don't know how to say this without sounding hostile, bus could you give a few examples? I'm not being arsey - I promise. I just fail to see how you can threaten someone with something so totally ridiculous to them. That said, I'm a wishy-washy literature student and quite honestly know squat about history, so do enlighten me.
I don't have any beef with your second statement, but it is rather a sweeper. |
If I really felt like looking deep into it, I'm sure there's plenty I could find, but I don't have the time for that.
Just a few that come to mind:
Cold War between US/USSR
Directly after 9/11 and even still today to an extent concerning Islam/Muslims (also the entire War In Iraq is based solely on fear)
Spanish Inquisition
English Inquisition
Reign of Terror (to an extent; wasn't so much scaring people into a belief, but rather scaring them into a certain behavior)
On a more generic level, Hitler and Stalin used more fear to control their people's beliefs than anyone could imagine.
And as mentioned earlier, I believe many religions use fear as one of their many tools to gain supporters/converts. ie If you don't follow these commandments and acknowledge/worship me, you risk burning for eternity. Not that all religions are like that or that any religion constantly spreads that message so bluntly, but you get the point.I am not disputing that fear is a useful control mechanism where the threat is physical and obvious. Terrorism, death, pain, ostracization: all of these things are universally acknowledged to exist and so have scare power.
However, if you don't believe in hell/evil unicorns/murderous leprechauns then the threat just isn't going to influence you.
Well, my parents let me free to make my choice and I thank them for that.
But in some points of my life I felt a little bit lost and that I didn't have anything that made sense to keep living and then I found Christ (or Christ found me).
I want my children (when I have children) grow up learning what took so long for me do discover. I want them to grow up under the same sense of values that I've been told. I had to discover it by myself, but them will grow up learning it, so I assume it will be easier for them.
But I don't think that forcing kids to go to church is a good thing. When then reach a certain age (about 10 years old) they have a sense of what's right and wrong for them. I think that parents obligation is to teach their children what they believe is right and not choosing for them. You teach, they learn, they follow it if they feel like following it in their hearts and mind.
I wouldn't have kids, but if I did I would raise them going to church. I wouldn't force them to believe, though, I would let them decide if they want to believe in God. I would raise them going because a church provides good influences, especially churches with good youth programs.
| Afaceinthematrix wrote: |
| I wouldn't have kids, but if I did I would raise them going to church. I wouldn't force them to believe, though, I would let them decide if they want to believe in God. I would raise them going because a church provides good influences, especially churches with good youth programs. |
Doesn't parenting provide good influence? =) | liljp617 wrote: |
| Afaceinthematrix wrote: | | I wouldn't have kids, but if I did I would raise them going to church. I wouldn't force them to believe, though, I would let them decide if they want to believe in God. I would raise them going because a church provides good influences, especially churches with good youth programs. |
Doesn't parenting provide good influence? =) |
Yes, it should. But can too many good influences be harmful? | Afaceinthematrix wrote: |
| liljp617 wrote: | | Afaceinthematrix wrote: | | I wouldn't have kids, but if I did I would raise them going to church. I wouldn't force them to believe, though, I would let them decide if they want to believe in God. I would raise them going because a church provides good influences, especially churches with good youth programs. |
Doesn't parenting provide good influence? =) |
Yes, it should. But can too many good influences be harmful? |
Depends on what you consider a good influence. Church leaders aren't too good of influences in my opinion. But to each his own | liljp617 wrote: |
| Afaceinthematrix wrote: | | liljp617 wrote: | | Afaceinthematrix wrote: | | I wouldn't have kids, but if I did I would raise them going to church. I wouldn't force them to believe, though, I would let them decide if they want to believe in God. I would raise them going because a church provides good influences, especially churches with good youth programs. |
Doesn't parenting provide good influence? =) |
Yes, it should. But can too many good influences be harmful? |
Depends on what you consider a good influence. Church leaders aren't too good of influences in my opinion. But to each his own :) |
I guess it depends on what you consider to be good influences, and what the church leaders are like. I grew up going to a church with a huge youth program. My parents forced me to go and participate. They did a lot of community service work, mission trips, and outreach programs. They also did the usual church things like preach and pray. But many of the things they did had nothing to do with religion, they were simply about helping people.COMING FROM A KID! HAHA! WHAT NOW!
About last year, I was your average kid, kind of nuetral with God. One of my friends brought me to a Youth Group, and my life has never been the same since. I have learned about Jesus so much, and I love him to death (In a totally manly way.) XD
When I have kids, I wish to bring them to church, exactly like the one i go to now.
Do you think it is possible that if you had been taken to a Muslim, Jewish or Hindi youth group that you would feel exactly the same as you do about the Christian youth group you attended?
I would just be stupiod to go to any church... Since religions have to alter, why do something that have to alter?
If you find a couple where one is pushing that the kid must go to church, let the kid decide! No one but the individual itself can decide.
hm, it is god to talk about religions n beliefs in a childs time but to indoktrinate is not good.
| titansmlb102 wrote: |
COMING FROM A KID! HAHA! WHAT NOW!
About last year, I was your average kid, kind of nuetral with God. One of my friends brought me to a Youth Group, and my life has never been the same since. I have learned about Jesus so much, and I love him to death (In a totally manly way.) XD
When I have kids, I wish to bring them to church, exactly like the one i go to now. |
But what if they like a neutrality on the subject, like you felt back then. People are different, remember
When I might get children, I suppose I won't make them go to church, or anywhere like that. They can go if they like to though, or if it's held a good concert or something in it. I might take them there for the historical value, and for them to experience something different. It's nice buildings, the most of them at least. | Shewolf wrote: |
| titansmlb102 wrote: | COMING FROM A KID! HAHA! WHAT NOW!
About last year, I was your average kid, kind of nuetral with God. One of my friends brought me to a Youth Group, and my life has never been the same since. I have learned about Jesus so much, and I love him to death (In a totally manly way.) XD
When I have kids, I wish to bring them to church, exactly like the one i go to now. |
But what if they like a neutrality on the subject, like you felt back then. People are different, remember
When I might get children, I suppose I won't make them go to church, or anywhere like that. They can go if they like to though, or if it's held a good concert or something in it. I might take them there for the historical value, and for them to experience something different. It's nice buildings, the most of them at least. |
Some go so far as to say that forcing children to go to church is a form of child abuse. I would say it is in so far as you are indoctrinating them with ideas that their brains are not readily able to reject, and abusing the persuasive power parents have over their childreni am a muslim (?) because my parrents are muslim, i am not. i dont believe any kind of god. So i never ever gone to curch or mosque.
by asking this question do u imply that god resides only in the church if so then what about all the other places on earth. i personally feel and believe that god is everywhere so where does this church concept come into picture.
if you would have asked would you want your children to believe in god then it was a different issue
so all i will say is NO COMMENTS
