Everyone talks about various religions and expresses their own feelings for it, but I was wondering that how many of us really go deep in the religion? Have we gone till the root of that religion and understood everything what it has to say to us?
Take for example, Hinduism.. it has more than 33 crorers Gods and Godesses, many scriptures, many myths, many religious stories and these days many sub-religions and all of them telling different things when they basically are rooted from Hinduism but what they are teaching today is different.
So the point is, we are talking about religion from the upper layer of it. If we go deep down towards root, all religions will seem the same.
What you have to say about this?
About 3 inches or 7.62 millimeters.
I don't know... I never heard anyone ever measured the depth of the religions. Maybe 6 feet down.
Well, this actually depends only on your personal attitude, on this how far would you like to go with your religion. There are some people that claim to be believers, but pray only when something bad happens, other ones go to church regularly and that's enough for them, others get involved into many religious groups and try to deepen their faith and get down to the roots, as you said. It depends only on you how 'deep' will the religion be for you. And I hate when people judge the others because they are too much or too little involved.
"33 crorers Gods and Godesses"...no wonder the Hindu Gods and Godesses are usually after each other's throats.
When I was about 9 years old and was being taught about there being just One God, I was told to think of this example:
Imagine there being two powerful Gods. Gods are Gods. They are equal in strength and Pride...etc... Now imagine one God wanted it to rain and the other did not. They would end up in a fight cos neither God would want to give in to the others demand. And since the concept of God dying is unacceptable, this fight would go on till eternity... Now imagine this happening on several issues. Gods with their power and fury would have destroyed earth by now.
We are supposed to be worshipping God for creating us and for their blessing. We really can't respect a bunch of Gods who keep fighting against one another. Worse still a bunch of Gods who get married, have kids, steal other Gods' wives and go about killing one another.
The idea that there is more than one God is ridiculous.
| Quote: |
| "33 crorers Gods and Godesses"...no wonder the Hindu Gods and Godesses are usually after each other's throats. |
I wish people would stop critisising things they don't know about.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hinduism.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/hinduism/index.shtml
http://hinduism.about.com/
http://www.hindu.org/
http://www.hinduism.co.za/
| Quote: |
| We are supposed to be worshipping God for creating us and for their blessing. We really can't respect a bunch of Gods who keep fighting against one another. Worse still a bunch of Gods who get married, have kids, steal other Gods' wives and go about killing one another. |
What makes you thin having more than one god would mean the god all fighting each other?
| Quote: |
| The idea that there is more than one God is ridiculous. |
Only if you're Christan Jewish or Muslim. Cause Christens Jews and Muslims cant see past there own God.Are you denying that such things happen in Hindu Mythology? Isn't that what the great festival Holi is based on? I'm not talking speculatively... I am talking about the myths in Hinduism that exists today. Several of them involve trysts between different Gods. Which goes to prove my logic.
If you sit and think about it, you will realise that such characteristics aught not be attributes of a God. A God would be perfect in every way.
Hinduism has Gods that look like Elephants, Monkeys, Snakes and even one represented by a Penis. Can you honestly say these are what God would look like? Don't ki yourself. It's a bloody insult to God.
| jipmerite wrote: |
Are you denying that such things happen in Hindu Mythology? Isn't that what the great festival Holi is based on? I'm not talking speculatively... I am talking about the myths in Hinduism that exists today. Several of them involve trysts between different Gods. Which goes to prove my logic.
If you sit and think about it, you will realise that such characteristics aught not be attributes of a God. A God would be perfect in every way.
Hinduism has Gods that look like Elephants, Monkeys, Snakes and even one represented by a Penis. Can you honestly say these are what God would look like? Don't ki yourself. It's a bloody insult to God. |
I think you are referring to the concept of deities here.
I am not a Hindu, but my understanding of Hinduism matches this.
I've also read that the Vedas (the 4 books regarded as the basis of Hinduism) never talk of "God" in a figurative way.
The numerous deities are a product of certain books which most people tend to associate with Hinduism now, although they were not intended to be.
Infact, If you were to ask Hindus today about their religious book, I'll bet most of them will answer "Ramayana" or "Mahabharata" instead of "Vedas".
As a clarification, these books only portrayed the protagonists as human.
People, however, worship them as deities or "God"s nonetheless.
Whence come the myths and the trysts between "God"s.
p.s. - Just to further my point, I'll invite anybody (especially Hindu) to share any reference that they might have, wherein a Hindu scripture tries to put a physical shape to God. (scripture mind you, not works of fiction)
Hinduism, contrary to popular belief, doesn't involve idol worship.
And cows are no more sacred than any other animal 
| The Conspirator wrote: |
| Quote: | | The idea that there is more than one God is ridiculous. |
Only if you're Christan Jewish or Muslim. Cause Christens Jews and Muslims cant see past there own God. |
What the heck do you mean by that?
As per Christianity, Jewism or Islam there is only one GOD. And Adam, Noha, Ibrahim, Moses, Jesus & Mohammed were all his messengers (in that order). All these 3 religions accept one fact God is One and No Idolism.
And if you are pointing towards Religious Tolerance then that is a different topic to debate on.I guess he means that the idea that there is a single God powerful enough to be the creator of the universe is ridiculous.
There has to be a different god for every aspect of the universe, it seems.
| Quote: |
| What the heck do you mean by that? |
It means what it sounds like it means, Christens Muslims and Jews can not see past there own God, they can not see any other way but some mythological father figure.
| Quote: |
| As per Christianity, Jewism or Islam there is only one GOD. And Adam, Noha, Ibrahim, Moses, Jesus & Mohammed were all his messengers (in that order). All these 3 religions accept one fact God is One and No Idolism. |
I never said ether on of those where not monotheistic.
Polytheism makes more sense than monotheism, pantheism and panentheism cause of the questions raised by theism. If there is a God,where did it come from? Polytheism gets you closer to a logical answer.Isn't that exactly the point? God was there before everything. He always was and always will be. If God came from someone, then that means that that someone is greater than God and thus God is not supreme. Because that someone made God.
It's really not hard to understand or believe. God is above earthly parameters. We can't be applying the Chicken and the Egg question on God now can we?
I read in a Philosophy book a long time ago. Everything in the Universe happens with a reason or Force. If you push a brick, it moves by the Force applied by you. The energy to give that Force came from the food you ate. The Food you ate came from the plants and animals. The plants and animals came from their ancestors. Their ancestors came from the sea. The sea water was made on earth through billions of years of geographic activity.
If we kept going back in this line, there will have to be some thing that gave the very first force. The Force before which there was no Force.
That is God.
| jipmerite wrote: |
I read in a Philosophy book a long time ago. Everything in the Universe happens with a reason or Force. If you push a brick, it moves by the Force applied by you. The energy to give that Force came from the food you ate. The Food you ate came from the plants and animals. The plants and animals came from their ancestors. Their ancestors came from the sea. The sea water was made on earth through billions of years of geographic activity.
If we kept going back in this line, there will have to be some thing that gave the very first force. The Force before which there was no Force.
That is God.[/color] |
Well actually not everything happens with a reason/cause in this universe. If you look at the particle level, then everything happens completely randomly and the only certainty you have is statistics. Sparks of energy do appear in this universe out of nowhere, without any cause. | jipmerite wrote: |
Isn't that exactly the point? God was there before everything. He always was and always will be. If God came from someone, then that means that that someone is greater than God and thus God is not supreme. Because that someone made God.
It's really not hard to understand or believe. God is above earthly parameters. We can't be applying the Chicken and the Egg question on God now can we?
I read in a Philosophy book a long time ago. Everything in the Universe happens with a reason or Force. If you push a brick, it moves by the Force applied by you. The energy to give that Force came from the food you ate. The Food you ate came from the plants and animals. The plants and animals came from their ancestors. Their ancestors came from the sea. The sea water was made on earth through billions of years of geographic activity.
If we kept going back in this line, there will have to be some thing that gave the very first force. The Force before which there was no Force.
That is God. |
But that raises some questions. Like if God always existed than what was he doing for the literal eternity before he created heaven, hell and earth? If God always existed that means the he lived for literately eternity before making the universes. How could he exist if nothing created him? And why dose he exist, what is his purpose?
And why is it that God has to come from a more powerful creature? Why couldn't God have been made by a far less powerful creature than changed over time into an omnipotent, omniscient bing?
| Quote: |
| If we kept going back in this line, there will have to be some thing that gave the very first force. The Force before which there was no Force. |
What makes you think that that was God?
And before some one says it (and some one will)
God can't exist out side of time, maybe time as we know it but there has to be time in some form. There has to be a past present and future in some form weather that be linear (as in a strait line) or non linear (think Legacy of Kain or Doctor Who). Time in some form has to exist for there to be though and action.Let me try to put things in a different perspective. I am sure you all know that our Earth is billions of years old. And humanoid beings have been on earth for millions of years. Even as recently as a few months back scientists have found new remains of what they think were the earliest humans...and then about 2000 lunar years ago a great man called Jesus was teaching many great things on how to come close to God.
Do you think any man of that time had the slightest idea of how things will be today? Would they have known about aeroplanes, space shuttles, mobile phones, nuclear weapons, electricity, water purification, electric cars, vaccination, antibiotics, anti-cancer drugs, open heart surgery, kidney transplants...
Two thousand years is less than a blink of an eye when compared to the age of te Earth.
And do you think we know everything there is to know about the earth today? No we don't. New things will keep on being discovered, adding to our knowledge. Just because we do not know something now does not mean that it never was or never will be. Knoweldge is very limited.
If you read the Quran, the Holy book in Islam, God says something like, 'Of knowledge We have given to Humans very little'...It is not that God has something to hide..it is that what we know of our lives and universe is very less when complared to what God knows.
In Christianity, one has to go and confess for the absolution of sins. This does not mean that God does not know about your sins. He knows better that we ourselves. But He requires us to go and repent for Him to forgive.
So to your question of what God was going before making the Univers, well we don't know what he was doing. But that does not mean that he did not exist. If God has chosen not to reveal that knowledge to us then we are not worthy to question His Will.
If you think you want to take God to court asking for your right to know His business, then you do not realise the grandeur of God.
There is no scientist that can confirm that this Universe is the first of it's kind. So who knows, maybe God had made another Universe before this with humans just like us in it.. and once the time for that Universe was over, he made this Universe. Or maybe there are Universes just like this one in existence right now. We don't know...
Have you heard of Einsteins Theory of Relativity? According to that, time is relative. I'm quite sure most people would have heard of the example of twins, one person staying on earth and the other going to space...and when the person comes back to earth he would not have aged that much but his earth twin ha aged significanly. Time is relative. What we think as an eternity might be less than a moment in another galaxy. So we can't say there was an eternity before the creation of this Univers, because we were not there at the time. Time for us started from the moment this Universe was made.
God can exist outside time. Because he is God. And God can make this whole universe out of nothing. Because he is God.
You seem to be under estimating the greatness of God.
Funny I just posted along the same topic in another thread.
All religions ARE fundamentally the same. We just lose sight of respect and equality because we focus too much on the deity and ourselves (selfishness) and not enough on the basics and each other (selflessness) ... which do you manifest?
I personally like to find a balance. 
jipmerite: you missed my point, I was pointing out that saying that there is only 1 god brings up allot of questions and that polytheism is better cause it doesn't bring up so many questions and answers others.
Gods are like any other story, monotheism has plot holes, polytheism has less.
bluedragon: there are allot of difrenss between the religons.
| The Conspirator wrote: |
| bluedragon: there are allot of difrenss between the religons. |
I didn't say that religions aren't different. I said, basically, that at its VERY CORE... religion is all the same. But people are all superficial these days... so the core is ignored.At there core they are different, Buddhism and Janism are about enlightenment, Judaism, Christianity and Islam are about obedience.
Polytheism has it's own plot holes in some cases. I will not name any religions here as I tried that before and I ended up stepping on too many nerves.
| The Conspirator wrote: |
| At there core they are different, Buddhism and Janism are about enlightenment, Judaism, Christianity and Islam are about obedience. |
Very interesting you say that!
I suggest you study the core beliefs of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. It seems you suppose "obedience" because of how the extremes of Judaism, Christianity and Islam work. How maybe the Catholic church has ruthlessly forced itself upon many many cultures.
There is a difference between the history of a religion and its core values.There is a saying that The victors of a war writes it's history. Most times that a new religion rises up there is a revolution; a battle against old values. And it is the victors who survive to tell the story. And sometimes the tale is told differently than what actually happened.
I agree on what bluedragon has said. But I would also like to add this. What the people of a religion follow or claim to follow might also not be what the religion is actually about. Judge a religion by it's teachings, not by it's followers, who may be flawed.
If you really learned about Islam you will learn that it really is a religion of peace and inter religious tolerence. But if a certain population of it's people go out waging war and calling themselves martyres, it does not reflect on religion... It is just their view.
Did you know that there are more than 1.2 million Christians in Saudi Arabia? If Islam is an intolerant religion, can they live in peace there?
The western political system has completely segregated religion and politics. Therefore religious views do not enter their actions. So when America goes to war, no one mentions that most of them are Christians. No one says that Christians are going to war against the terrorists and al-gaeda. (And by that I mean the major World news agencies, not the terrorists who do call them Christians among other things....)
But in the middle east and arabia which the the birth place of Islam, religion plays a bigger part in their daily lives. And Islam also has more to say on how they should do it. Unlike Christianity, Islamic teachings cover a wider range of topics from politics to domestic affairs, Christianity teaches peace and love but do not go in so much detail on how to live their daily lives. Islam is a more complete religion in that sense. That is why religion crops up in everything that they do.
But suppose that was the case with Christians as well... and the world's news networks were saying that the Christian armies of America was going to war in Irag, without any solid proof or justification, and then raping and killing women and children there. Would this be true of Christianity? No it won't. Christianity has wonderful teachings of peace, forgiveness and getting close to god.
So what you see in the followers of a religion are not what you should judge a religion by. If you really want enlightenment, you should learn the core religion from it's teachings and not from CNN and BBC.
| Quote: |
| If you really learned about Islam you will learn that it really is a religion of peace and inter religious tolerence. |
Peace, not really, religious tolerance, to some extent. Quran 2:256 ("Let there be no compulsion in religion") should be pretty clear - fact of the matter is, it isn't. Some believe it to refer only to Judaism and Christianity, while practitioners of any other religion should be persecuted. Some believe it's cancelled out altogether by later verses, such as "Slay the idolaters wherever you find them".
The end result is the same as it always is when it comes to religion. The "holy book" is so vague and self-contradictory as to not have one, clear interpretation. And when that book is the basis of the belief, the idea of "core beliefs" becomes somewhat meaningless. Sure, a lot of religious people have beliefs that can't possibly be found in their scripture, but in most cases, they have every right to believe as they do, based on their book.
As for Islam being peaceful, sure, the actual call for war is rarer (though not non-existant) in the Quran than in the Torah, but the style and wording of the prose itself isn't exactly hugs and puppies.
| Quote: |
| Did you know that there are more than 1.2 million Christians in Saudi Arabia? |
Did you know that there are more than 1.2 million Christians in Saudi Arabia who are prohibited by law from practicing their belief? Muslims have been executed for converting or even just owning a bible. Non-muslim priests are not allowed to cross the country's borders. Publicly visible religious activities by non-muslims is forbidden and may result in anything from deportation over whipping to torture. Saudi Arabia is probably not the best example of the religious tolerance of Islam.
| Quote: |
| The western political system has completely segregated religion and politics. |
In most of Europe, yes. In the US, certainly not.
| Quote: |
| So when America goes to war, no one mentions that most of them are Christians. No one says that Christians are going to war against the terrorists and al-gaeda. |
Except for Bush, a large percentage of his supporters, and most news agencies outside the US - whether for his "crusade" or against it. The only reason the word "Christians" is rarely mentioned in this context by US media is that it suffices to imply it in the "us vs. them" discourse.
| Quote: |
| Unlike Christianity, Islamic teachings cover a wider range of topics from politics to domestic affairs, Christianity teaches peace and love but do not go in so much detail on how to live their daily lives. Islam is a more complete religion in that sense. That is why religion crops up in everything that they do. |
Very true.
| Quote: |
| So what you see in the followers of a religion are not what you should judge a religion by. If you really want enlightenment, you should learn the core religion from it's teachings and not from CNN and BBC. |
Also true. However...
| bluedragon wrote: |
| It seems you suppose "obedience" because of how the extremes of Judaism, Christianity and Islam work. |
... to get back to the original discussion, it's clear enough from these religions' (Islam, Judaism, Christianity) teachings and core beliefs that they are very different from most eastern religions. Like The Conspirator said. Judaism, Christianity and Islam are about obedience. Very much so. It's not a matter of Catholic or extremist interpretation. It's there in black and white, on the only core foundation these beliefs can have - their holy scriptures.
Deuteronomy is one big call for obedience, Jeremiah 7:23 is as clear as it gets, the Decalog etc. etc. Or take a look at hundreds of other places in OT and NT. Christ underlines again and again that the way to heaven includes unquestioning obedience of and faith in God's word. Nowhere in the Bible is the opposite stated. The original sin was not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge, but to eat in spite of God's word. As for Islam, the word Islam itself means submission/obedience (and peace). It's the very core of the religion as Allah put it forth.
And why wouldn't it be? I don't know of many Christians, Muslims or Jews who see anything negative in this obedience. However, it's a fact that this is a core in their belief structure, which is not shared with most eastern religions.Reading the Islamic holy scripture isn't as simple as reading a book. And it gets only worse if you are reading a translation. Unlike the Bible which can be translated into any language and still be called the Bible and have the same status, the Quran is only in Arabic and Arabic alone. The Quran in any other language is always 'A Translation of the Quran'.
The second point to remember is that the Quran was revealed to Muhammed the Messenger of God (PBUH) spread across 23 years. So when reading the Quran it also has to be noted at what point of his prophethood a particular verse was revealed and for what purpose.
Some verses were revealed after certain significant events and they have a bearing on the context and interpretation of the Quran. In the case of the Quran there were people who wrote down these explanations and we still have this knowledge today.
| Quote: |
| Let there be no compulsion in religion |
I am no expert but I find it easy to beleive that this verse does not actually refer to persecution of followers, either of Islam or any other religion... Rather it means that no one can be forced to follow Islam. Because there is no value in anyone becoming a Muslim under threat. Have you ever heard al-gaeda announcing that they will stop their fighting if all the Christians convert to Islam? They are not fighting for that. They are not even fighting for a religious cause. No one is persecuting them for being muslims for them to be fighting for their religion. They are fighting for their land and freedom. Some of their views are misguided...but not all of them.
| Quote: |
| Did you know that there are more than 1.2 million Christians in Saudi Arabia who are prohibited by law from practicing their belief? Muslims have been executed for converting or even just owning a bible. Non-muslim priests are not allowed to cross the country's borders. Publicly visible religious activities by non-muslims is forbidden and may result in anything from deportation over whipping to torture. Saudi Arabia is probably not the best example of the religious tolerance of Islam. |
I think I have tried to explain this before. All this is not part of Islam. All these regulations are political. Don't confuse them with religious guidelines. It is easy to blame religion and close the case, but thinking objectively and looking at the real truth, all this is politics and paranoa. There is no teaching in Islam that says a Muslim cannot have or read the Bible. In fact knowing about the Bible is part of Islam itself.
Please do not confuse the current political agenders of countries with teachings of Islam just because they have an Islamic govt. They are very far apart.
During the peak of the Islamic movement during and immediately after the Prophet, the Islamic armies went and conquered many non-muslim countries. But none of them were forced to convert to Islam. Many of them did it willingly. Those who did not were allowed to have their own way and only the political affairs were taken over by the Islamic armies.
| Quote: |
| The only reason the word "Christians" is rarely mentioned in this context by US media is that it suffices to imply it in the "us vs. them" discourse. |
So why doesn't it surfice to call the iragi militia the Iragi Insurgents or the Afghanistan's armies...instead of bringing Islimic, Extremist, fundamentalist and other such words into their descriptions?
| Quote: |
| And why wouldn't it be? I don't know of many Christians, Muslims or Jews who see anything negative in this obedience. |
Well to duscuss that view we would have to go into the form of belief each person has and it could be different from person to person. But the way I see it is that in these three religions, the person does not follow it because God is asking them to show Him obedience. It is the other way around. They think about their creator and realise His grandeur. They choose to worship him. And after coming to the realization that there is a God who is so great, who has made the universe and all that therein, to Whom they will return after death; Who has so much mercy and give them so much bessings; after this realization, who are they to refuse his what God has asked of them...
I know that might not be convincing and I am not able to convey what I really have in my mind... But think about it...
As for eastern religions; in Hinduism, I refuse to follow a religion that says someone is better than me just because he was born to a particular set of parents. I can become a lawer, an engineer, a doctor but still I am lower than some others who work as office clerks just because I was born to my parents... This I cannot accept. When I am born, I should have a clean slate. I should not be lower in the face of God(s) due to something I have no control over. BTW what is the Max number of points per post in this forum? I thought that was a pretty long post and I still got about 4 points... How do I get more points per post? Just a side question from the topic... 
Hope you guys don't mind...I'm rather new in here. Okay I got the answer...sorry... it is max 4 points per post...
Amen jipmerite! Scripture does not equal core values. Especially when it all was written by human hands. And translated by human minds.
The core values are those that are directly divine (ie, Jesus' teachings, Ten Commandments) ... much of everything else is subject to time.
When studiing any religion, there are hidden depths in it. You should realize that during the time it was written, it could have had a totally different meaning than it might now. You should look at what the person was going through, where that person was when he/she was writting it. There are several different aspects to look at to help you understand what is being said. I don't think you should take what is written at face value. There could be hidden meanings that can only be gotten by intense study.
| jipmerite wrote: |
I read in a Philosophy book a long time ago. Everything in the Universe happens with a reason or Force. If you push a brick, it moves by the Force applied by you. The energy to give that Force came from the food you ate. The Food you ate came from the plants and animals. The plants and animals came from their ancestors. Their ancestors came from the sea. The sea water was made on earth through billions of years of geographic activity.
If we kept going back in this line, there will have to be some thing that gave the very first force. The Force before which there was no Force.
That is God. |
That is what science calls sigularity. A point beyond which we can not explain. (We can explain that using M-theory ) First off:
i believe in Jesus, i am His follower, i am a Christian.
i believe in a Person, not a "system"
to me, religion is a system of beliefs.
to me, religion is "tradition"
to me, religion is dead (dead people's way of doing things - which we like and we follow and try to copy them and their way of life)
to me, religion is man-made
to me, religion is not what God/ Jesus had in mind
to me, religion is a way of doing things
to me, religion is following rules and certian 'laws'
to me, religion is not from God.
= i'll stop here for now. these are my thoughts-thanks
| mikewould wrote: |
to me, religion is man-made
to me, religion is not what God/ Jesus had in mind
to me, religion is a way of doing things
to me, religion is following rules and certian 'laws'
to me, religion is not from God.
|
You are describing "Religion" in its institutional sense. There is also "religion" in the sense of that desire in the heart of man to be with his god. Augustine of Hippo expresses this sense of religion well: "Our hearts were made for thee. O God, and they are restless until they rest in Thee" 
