what is with the obbsesstion people have with the "VRIGIN MARY", shes a human..... shes worshiped by christians wtf? and statues made in her asstemed honur (even tho there are no records of her actual look) ppl even swear by her, etc etc.........
strange that the "FATHER" of Jesus is never mentioned....., and in most obsessive teachings men are usally thought the most of, joseph was also a virgin....... but no big song and dance....., or would the idea of worhsiping a virgin man seem a lil "gay" for them........?
???? 
Not all christians honor Virgin Mary. Those who does, it is because Virgin Mary is the mother of our savior Jesus-Christ--and she should be honored and be given thanks for giving birth to Jesus. The Angel said to Mary:
"Hail Mary full of Grace!"
"The Lord is with you!"
"Blessed are you among women..."
So I think some christians would like to be shared by Mary's grace.
Talking about Jesus-christ's father, it is mentioned many times:
Joh 8:54 - Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
John 6:40 - And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. 42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? 43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 1:18 - No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is the same as God and is at the Father's side, he has made him known.
and many more..
| Nikkori wrote: |
| Talking about Jesus-christ's father, it is mentioned many times |
I think he's refering to Joseph, not trinitarian doctrine.
If I had any clue as to why people have such a special place for Mary I would let you know, but I don't have a clue.Nikkori, i was refering quite obviously to in life and thru the ages, NOT in the bible.......abnd as i sed, there are no churchs like st joseph, but many many st marys and all that rubbish......, is it sexist maybe? 
| We r the SYC wrote: |
| abnd as i sed, there are no churchs like st joseph, but many many st marys and all that rubbish......, is it sexist maybe? |
I don't know if Joseph was ever sainted. But I do know of a few st pauls, a st. roberts, and a st john.the asposols yes, but i dont see y mary is more important than joseph....,
She is friggn WORSHIPED by ppl insted of God or Jesus..... thas jus werid....
She is NOT worshipped, rather, she shouldn't be. Yes, there are probably some select people out there who do worship her.
I assure you, she's no goddess, she's an ordinary human with only one special power - the power of prayer, something we all have.
Now, Jesus loved and respected His mother. In an attempt to be more Christ-like, I find (and most of the Catholic Church finds) that respecting and loving Jesus' Mother, Mother of God, makes us more Christlike.
If you walk into my parish, you do not see Mary above the altar, you see a crucified Jesus. And in the statue of Mary in our church, she is pregnant with Jesus.
Without Mary, there would be no Jesus, as she gave birth to the Lord, our Savior - that's pretty important in my eyes.
welll, alot and more than some churches take it alot ferther than you....., im glad 2 know its not a widly belived as i thought... 
Yeah, while I do love and respect Mary as part of God's plan, Jesus remains central and crucial to my faith.
| a_dubDesign wrote: |
| We r the SYC wrote: | | abnd as i sed, there are no churchs like st joseph, but many many st marys and all that rubbish......, is it sexist maybe? |
I don't know if Joseph was ever sainted. But I do know of a few st pauls, a st. roberts, and a st john. |
is the universal patron of the Catholic Church. He was, after all, the CareTaker of the Redeemer (as John Paul II would put it)Our Church is St. Charles Borromeo. And yes, Joseph is a Saint, and like previously said, most identify him as the patron Saint of the Catholic Church.
The Virgin Mary is a corner stone in the Christian concept. This much is clear from te Bible and the Gospels. Were Jesus to have a Father, Christianity would be void.
So if Mary gave a Virgin birth without being with any man, why does the Gospels go on and on and on about Joseph the Carpenter being the 'supposed' father of Jesus?
Why is the Geneology of Christ in the Gospels traced through Joseph the Carpenter when Jesus is supposed to be Fatherless, born of a miraculous birth?
A woman who had sex before marriage in a time when that would get a woman stoned to death cause women were considered property of there husbands or fathers.
She said God impregnated her and the guy she was to marry was a good enough human bing not to care that she had sex with some one else.
| jipmerite wrote: |
The Virgin Mary is a corner stone in the Christian concept. This much is clear from te Bible and the Gospels. Were Jesus to have a Father, Christianity would be void.
So if Mary gave a Virgin birth without being with any man, why does the Gospels go on and on and on about Joseph the Carpenter being the 'supposed' father of Jesus?
Why is the Geneology of Christ in the Gospels traced through Joseph the Carpenter when Jesus is supposed to be Fatherless, born of a miraculous birth? |
Because Joseph was the figurative father of Jesus. Think of him as a step father, or adoptive father. He had no part in the creation of the child, but raised him as his own.Well that's very nice and well. I'm sure Joseph was a great man. But he did not have any genetic relation with Jesus. So why trace Jesus's Geneology through him? Isn't that inaccurate? If we were to trace Jesus to Adam, it should be through his mother, his only genetic relative.
The beginning of John's Gospel is all about Jesus's Fathers. And the Church claims that the Bible is accurate. So how is this inaccuracy explained?
If you take even today, even if I had a step father, my geneology will be traced via my real Father and Mother. In Jesus's case there was no Father... so it should be through his Mother alone and not through someone unrelated to him.
if any of you watched the movie snatch it has a point where there is explained that in jewish a young lady is somehow caled the same as a virgin in the language spoked back in those days. therefore somebody who new both languages could easily get wrong about the main idea in the expression. however i do believe in God and honor all christian ideology. mostly ordhodox.
| codenameshypher wrote: |
| if any of you watched the movie snatch it has a point where there is explained that in jewish a young lady is somehow caled the same as a virgin in the language spoked back in those days. therefore somebody who new both languages could easily get wrong about the main idea in the expression. however i do believe in God and honor all christian ideology. mostly ordhodox. |
I don't really remember the conversation, but I have heard from some very studied men that say the phrase "born of a virgin" in the jewish culture of the time very possibly could have meant someone who gets pregrnant the first time they have sex.
If our modern understanding of the phrase is wrong, so what. It doesn't change what Jesus taught us or what he did to reconcile everyone to God on the cross. In other words, I fail to see how "Christanity would be void" because us frail humans 2000 years after the fact have a possible misunderstanding of a phrase that is foreign to us. It wasn't Jesus's birth that reconciled us to God
Rob Bell specifically talks about this issue in his book Velvet Elvis if anyone is interested. He gives an excellent analogy of faith, one as a brick wall and one as a trampoline, both of which seem evident in this thread.Interesting ideas on the virginity of Mary:
http://www.udayton.edu/mary/questions/faq/faq18.html
1st paragraph:
| Quote: |
| This doctrine underwent a period of discussion until the late 4th century when general consensus emerged. The earliest witness to the perpetual virginity of Mary seems to appear in the apocryphal Protogospel of James (ca 150). Tertullian (d ca 220) denied the virginity of Mary after Jesus' birth. Origen (d 254), by contrast, taught Mary's perpetual virginity. In the East, St Athanasius strongly defended Mary's virginity after the birth of Jesus. Shortly after, St Basil the Great (d ca 380) accepted Mary's perpetual virginity and claimed that it reflected the general sense of believers; though he did not consider it to be a dogma. Around the same time, in the West, Jovinian and Helvidius denied the perpetual virginity while Ambrose (d. 397), Jerome (d. 420) and Augustine (d. 430) staunchly defended it. After this time, Monasticism spread widely and the value of consecrated virginity became better known and widely accepted. General agreement and clear teaching on the perpetual virginity of Mary seem to have followed. |
and a small chronology on how some bald men on dresses decided what god said:
| Quote: |
The Seven Ecumenical Councils
1. First Council of Nicaea, (325); repudiated Arianism, adopted the Nicene Creed. This and all subsequent councils are not recognized by nontrinitarian, semi-Christian churches— i.e. Arians, Unitarians, and Jehovah's Witnesses.
2. First Council of Constantinople, (381); revised the Nicene Creed into present form used in the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches and prohibited any further alteration of the Creed without the assent of an Ecumenical Council.
3. Council of Ephesus, (431); repudiated Nestorianism, proclaimed the Virgin Mary as the Mother of God (Greek, Η Θεοτόκος "God-bearer"). This and all following councils are not recognized by the Assyrian Church of the East.
4. Council of Chalcedon, (451); repudiated the Eutychian doctrine of monophysitism, described and delineated the two natures of Christ, human and divine; adopted the Chalcedonian Creed. This and all following councils are not recognized by the Oriental Orthodox Communion.
5. Second Council of Constantinople, (553); reaffirmed decisions and doctrines explicated by previous Councils, condemned new Arian, Nestorian, and Monophysite writings.
6. Third Council of Constantinople, (680–681); repudiated Monothelitism, affirmed that Christ had both human and divine wills.
Quinisext Council (= Fifth and Sixth) or Council in Trullo, (692); mostly an administrative council that raised some local canons to ecumenical status and established principles of clerical discipline. It is not considered to be a full-fledged council in its own right because it did not determine matters of doctrine. This council is accepted by the Eastern Orthodox Church as a part of the Third Council of Constantinople, but is rejected by Catholics.
7. Second Council of Nicaea, (787); restoration of the veneration of icons and end of the first iconoclasm. It is rejected by many Protestant denominations, who instead prefer the Council of Constantinople of 754, which condemned the veneration of icons. |
courtesy of wikipedia As far as I'm concerned Mary is just a righteous woman used by God. She should not get more or less attention of Christians as she gets in the Bible. Most catholics are putting her in the center too much. That's all there is to say about it.
No one is denying that Jesus was a great man who taught many good things on peace and closeness to God. All I'm saying is that, thinking objectively without any Christian bashing, it is only logical that if Jesus's geneology were to be traced in the Bible, it should be through Mary alone; his only Genetic relative as claimed in the Bible.
I'm just asking for an explanation.
But whenever I ask this question I never get a answer to this but instead long speeches on how it doesn't matter and all that matters is Jesus was a great man. The question is avoided.
Many criticize Catholicism for supposed "worshipping" of Mary and the Saints ... Just because they pray to these souls does not mean worship! My mom explained it that in praying to these souls, you are simply asking them to pray WITH you to God.
Monotheism out of control!!!
I agree with bluedragon. Over here in Malta we are a very religious ppl, we do have a lot of statues churches and feasts in the name of the virgin mary. However it doesn't mean we worship her. We also have a lot of churches dadicated to St Joseph who btw IS a saint and statues, feastes daduicated to him as well. The virgin mary is a little bit more important then St joseph because 1) She is the only woman born without sins. 2) she is the actual mother of Jesus, St joseph isn't jesus's father he's simply his guardain (Foster father if u may)
That's all very enlightening... but what about the issue of Jesus's geneology in the Bible?
| jipmerite wrote: |
| That's all very enlightening... but what about the issue of Jesus's geneology in the Bible? |
I like to call them the "Begatitudes" ... KJV Matthew 1 | jipmerite wrote: |
| That's all very enlightening... but what about the issue of Jesus's geneology in the Bible? |
I never thought about that. In the male dominated culture everyone's geneology was traced through the fathers, and usually don't even mention women, unlike this situation.
I know my answer of culturally reasons opens up a whole nother can of worms, and isn't a very statisfying answer in itself, at least not for me anyway. I think I'll pose this question to friends much smarter than me. | jipmerite wrote: |
| That's all very enlightening... but what about the issue of Jesus's geneology in the Bible? |
I posed the question to previously said friends, and mostly got answers that I don't quite understand, I guess thats the problem wiht really smart friends. Although one of them gave me this link. The whole thing is issues and answers about the geneologies, but the fourth bold sentence is most directed at this.A very good link. Thanks.
there's a differance between catholic and christian, and the high estem for the virigin mary is a catholic thing. it also depends on what catholic you're talking to. the strict 'roman' catholic teachings elevate her beyond what chistian doctrine allows for. there are many things in catholicism that are, despite calling themselves, christian, anti-christ in nature. don't take me wrong, i'm sure there are plenty of chrsitans who call themselves catholic, but many catholics are not really christians. that's where you get the virign worship. i call it worship because that's what it is, and that takes away from Christ and his father.
| bluedragon wrote: |
Many criticize Catholicism for supposed "worshipping" of Mary and the Saints ... Just because they pray to these souls does not mean worship! My mom explained it that in praying to these souls, you are simply asking them to pray WITH you to God.
Monotheism out of control!!! |
wouldent it be simpler to prey DIRECTLY to God?
weather theyr saints or not, theyr still dead..., as far as most variations of christianity go, dead generaly ither means in heaven with God in which case preying to someone ur living with in person would be a lil strange or just dead.
so Mary is Jesuses earth mother...., dosent mean she gets special privelleges dose it?..... isent everyone loved the same...no more...no less... and yet few prey to dead humans insted of a God whos alive and speaking to us......The pagans worship Earth Mother, and when they were being persuaded to convert to Christianity they wanted to retain some of their old ways, one of them being to have a female deity. You can imagine how well that went down with the early priests!!
Eventually to placate the ex-pagans - and to stop them praying to a pagan goddess, they decided to give them a suitable female to pray to, in the form of Mary.
| dfreeman616 wrote: |
| there's a differance between catholic and christian, and the high estem for the virigin mary is a catholic thing. it also depends on what catholic you're talking to. the strict 'roman' catholic teachings elevate her beyond what chistian doctrine allows for. there are many things in catholicism that are, despite calling themselves, christian, anti-christ in nature. don't take me wrong, i'm sure there are plenty of chrsitans who call themselves catholic, but many catholics are not really christians. that's where you get the virign worship. i call it worship because that's what it is, and that takes away from Christ and his father. |
Catholicism IS Christianity
In fact, any of your 300+ protestant denominations can trace it's history back to the Catholic Church, which originated nealy immediately after Jesus died on the cross. And Peter (Peter from the Bible) was the first Pope.
When someone is sick, or someone needs healing, don't people usually pray for them? Apply that same concept to Mary and the Saints. If you are sick and/or need healing, or just praying, you pray to God and Jesus, but you ask the Saints and Mary to pray with you. You aren't directly praying to Mary.
Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.
Most would say we are praying to Mary with that prayer, and at first glance it looks like it, but let's break it down:
Hail Mary
Okay, so this is the opening salutation. It means nothing more then saying "Mary is cool!" or "Go Mary" or something to that extent. It's a very old prayer, and hail was used in different ways.
full of grace, the Lord is with thee
Mary was full of God's grace, in the form of His son, Jesus. The angel Gabriel is also explaining to Mary that the Lord will be with her.
Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus
She is blessed because she is bearing our Savior as a child, and God picked her because of her faithfulness and because she was almost completely sinless. Needless to say, Jesus is blessed.
Holy Mary, Mother of God
Uh-oh! We said Mary was holy! What?! Yeah, you heard it right - she IS holy. Bearing the Savior as a child and having God impregnate her makes her quite holy.
She is the Mother of God. Look at the Trinity - Jesus, the Spirit, and God. Jesus is God. Mary gave birth to Jesus.
pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.
Here we are asking her to pray for us to God. We aren't praying to her about our sins. We ask her to continue to pray to God and His Son now and until we die on earth.
And we end with amen.
Please, do not ever make the mistake of calling Catholics non-Christian, because although I am Catholic, I am very Christian. Moreso than most of the "Christians" around here. Sounds self-righteous, but sometimes the truth can be that way. | We r the SYC wrote: |
| bluedragon wrote: | Many criticize Catholicism for supposed "worshipping" of Mary and the Saints ... Just because they pray to these souls does not mean worship! My mom explained it that in praying to these souls, you are simply asking them to pray WITH you to God.
Monotheism out of control!!! |
wouldent it be simpler to prey DIRECTLY to God?
weather theyr saints or not, theyr still dead..., as far as most variations of christianity go, dead generaly ither means in heaven with God in which case preying to someone ur living with in person would be a lil strange or just dead.
so Mary is Jesuses earth mother...., dosent mean she gets special privelleges dose it?..... isent everyone loved the same...no more...no less... and yet few prey to dead humans insted of a God whos alive and speaking to us...... |
Those are very good questions. They are essentally the same question that I pose against Hinduism as well. They say that the idols that they worship are not the Gods themselves (I am told that there are 33 million Gods in Hinduism), but images of the Gods on earth so that they have a figure to face in prayer. Why face an image or use an intermediary instead of talking to God direstly? Won't God hear your prayers in that case?
I think God would be very well versed in what is in our hearts without having anyone between Him and us to take the news to Him. | Quote: |
wouldent it be simpler to prey DIRECTLY to God?
weather theyr saints or not, theyr still dead..., as far as most variations of christianity go, dead generaly ither means in heaven with God in which case preying to someone ur living with in person would be a lil strange or just dead.
so Mary is Jesuses earth mother...., dosent mean she gets special privelleges dose it?..... isent everyone loved the same...no more...no less... and yet few prey to dead humans insted of a God whos alive and speaking to us...... |
That's not true.. we do pray to our relatives if we belive that they are in heaven and pray for them if they are still in porgoratry. we tend to pray to saints and the virgin mary as they have been ordained by the church that they are trully in heaven and that their life is an exaplirary one which we can follow to live a better life ourselves. That is why we tend to pray to differnet saints in differnet situations so that by keeping in our minds the way that they have lived their lives and faced their troubles which my be similar to ours had still previaled. don't know if i've answered your question efficiently | We r the SYC wrote: |
wouldent it be simpler to prey DIRECTLY to God?
weather theyr saints or not, theyr still dead..., as far as most variations of christianity go, dead generaly ither means in heaven with God in which case preying to someone ur living with in person would be a lil strange or just dead.
so Mary is Jesuses earth mother...., dosent mean she gets special privelleges dose it?..... isent everyone loved the same...no more...no less... and yet few prey to dead humans insted of a God whos alive and speaking to us...... |
It's not an issue of simplicity, it's an issue of ritual and traditionality. And we do pray directly to God, but that's not all the praying we do. Most people draw the line at God, but we take it a step further, after praying to God, we pray that others (the Saints and Mary) would amplify our prayers to the Lord. Just as someone would ask me to pray for a sick or injured person.
Without Mary there would be no Jesus. Without Jesus we would not be saved. Without being saved we would not be in Heaven. Without being able to go to Heaven, we would have no relationship with God. She's pretty crucial to the whole thing in my opinion. Is she something special? Not truly, she is an ordinary person like us, with one special power. This special power we all possess, and that's the power of prayer. | bluedragon wrote: |
Many criticize Catholicism for supposed "worshipping" of Mary and the Saints ... Just because they pray to these souls does not mean worship! My mom explained it that in praying to these souls, you are simply asking them to pray WITH you to God.
Monotheism out of control!!! |
Absolutely agreed. Many protestants and non-Christians misunderstand this concept of Mother Mary. They think Catholics worship her just because we have statues of her in our Catholic churches. But that is not the case, I can assure you that.
When we pray to her, we are asking her to intercede for us to the Lord Jesus Christ. When we do that, we are merely asking her to pray with us and for us. She who raised up to heaven (body and soul, mind you) is the mother of Christ. If a mother were to ask her son for a favour, what are the chances of her son rejecting his own mother?
Mary is the mother of all Christians. Jesus said it Himself in the Bible. Note that the disciple mentioned in the passage below is a metaphor for all Christians all over the world.
John 19:26-27: Jesus saw his mother and the disciple he loved standing there; so he said to his mother, "He is your son." Then he said to the disciple, "She is your mother." From that time the disciple took her to live in his home.
And so if Mary is our mother, shouldn't we honour and respect her? Surely she deserves a place in our churches? Without Mother Mary who submitted to God completely, there would not be salvation for sin through Jesus Christ.
So everyone out there, please do not misunderstand Catholics and our respect for Mary anymore. We are all one in Christ, no matter if your a catholic or protestant, or orthodox or what ever if you believe in Christ and are a true believer!
| woundedhealer wrote: |
The pagans worship Earth Mother, and when they were being persuaded to convert to Christianity they wanted to retain some of their old ways, one of them being to have a female deity. You can imagine how well that went down with the early priests!!
Eventually to placate the ex-pagans - and to stop them praying to a pagan goddess, they decided to give them a suitable female to pray to, in the form of Mary. |
1. Is there a direct relationship between Earth Mother and the Mother of God?
2. "Placate the ex-pagans..." You will have to show the documents for this. Can you come up with a hymn to Mary or a prayer to her that even sounds like prayers to the Earth Goddess?
3. Looks like your theory of the Earth Goddess clothed to look like Mary has no basis in fact. | Whong wrote: |
| We are all one in Christ, no matter if your a catholic or protestant, or orthodox or what ever if you believe in Christ and are a true believer! |
Christ would want us to be one (cf. John 17). But each group seems to have their own Christ. 
| parokya wrote: |
| Christ would want us to be one (cf. John 17). But each group seems to have their own Christ. |
I'm not sure what you mean by this, I'm guessing you're using the prayer in the garden to make a point here, but I'm not quite sure what it is. Could you clarify what you mean by each group having thier own Christ?Jesus didn't technically have a father... Joseph was not his father. God was Jesus' father. The reason Mary is called VIRGIN Mary, is because she was a virgin (in many cases). God gets mentioned very often...
