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Philosphical Conversations on God

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can the idea of god be considered more of a philosophical idea, or a scientific idea, or both
philosophical
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 100%  [ 8 ]
scientific
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Total Votes : 8

dyrtyrice
An argument/discussion I had with a Christian friend of mine a while ago, we are each still refining our own argumentations. Feel free to add or disagree with anything here. I am blasphemous rumours in the conversation over messenger:

Complacency comes not from self; Self-consciousness is contingent; seek the source; Jesus Christ says:
why do we need to be ambitious if we had a uniformitarian society?
Complacency comes not from self; Self-consciousness is contingent; seek the source; Jesus Christ says:
marx was wrong when he conceded that without division there is no progress
blasphemous rumours says:
contentment and self-satisfaction can be good, but can be coupled with unawareness of danger
blasphemous rumours says:
and can cause a lack of necessary caution
blasphemous rumours says:
we don't have a uniformatarian society
blasphemous rumours says:
that would be awful
Complacency comes not from self; Self-consciousness is contingent; seek the source; Jesus Christ says:
we contruct our own reality, dont you remember??
blasphemous rumours says:
read Walden 2, watch Equilibrium and read the giver
blasphemous rumours says:
we construct our own, I suppose, but we don't construct THE reality
Complacency comes not from self; Self-consciousness is contingent; seek the source; Jesus Christ says:
great
Complacency comes not from self; Self-consciousness is contingent; seek the source; Jesus Christ says:
lets start there
blasphemous rumours says:
also saying we construct our own reality is a philosophical statement
Complacency comes not from self; Self-consciousness is contingent; seek the source; Jesus Christ says:
since this reality exists, what caused this reality to spring into being?
blasphemous rumours says:
it isn't a truism
blasphemous rumours says:
what caused this reality is a moot point
blasphemous rumours says:
and it's impossible tom decipher the meaning of it all
blasphemous rumours says:
to*
Complacency comes not from self; Self-consciousness is contingent; seek the source; Jesus Christ says:
it began to exist, and it is intuitive that whatever begins to exist has a cause, thus the question arises, what caused this reality?
blasphemous rumours says:
that is a human way of thinking, chronologically and specically, therein lies the fallacy of human nature's philosophical ponderings and truisms
Complacency comes not from self; Self-consciousness is contingent; seek the source; Jesus Christ says:
so my intuition and the rest of the sane world is ridiculous?
blasphemous rumours says:
if you are so religious you should come to realize that humans can't always base their realities on their own structured thinking
blasphemous rumours says:
rest of the sane world?
blasphemous rumours says:
hahah!
blasphemous rumours says:
for being religious you are quite the believer in the words of man
Complacency comes not from self; Self-consciousness is contingent; seek the source; Jesus Christ says:
this is the very nature of reality, what caused its existence; we know a cause is never subsquent to its effect nor the effect antecedent to the cause, nor can something be all green and have some red, reality cries out for reason
Complacency comes not from self; Self-consciousness is contingent; seek the source; Jesus Christ says:
simply labeling it imbecility does not relieve the dilemma
blasphemous rumours says:
hmm
blasphemous rumours says:
I never labled it that
blasphemous rumours says:
but you are putting too much faith
Complacency comes not from self; Self-consciousness is contingent; seek the source; Jesus Christ says:
close enough
blasphemous rumours says:
in human nature
Complacency comes not from self; Self-consciousness is contingent; seek the source; Jesus Christ says:
it isnt human nature, it is actuality's nature, its very quintessence
blasphemous rumours says:
hmm
blasphemous rumours says:
I disagree
Complacency comes not from self; Self-consciousness is contingent; seek the source; Jesus Christ says:
so there are occasions that an effect can actually exist without a cause?
Complacency comes not from self; Self-consciousness is contingent; seek the source; Jesus Christ says:
[i.e. it began to exist]
Complacency comes not from self; Self-consciousness is contingent; seek the source; Jesus Christ says:
it=effect
Complacency comes not from self; Self-consciousness is contingent; seek the source; Jesus Christ says:
sorry, way to simplisitic in the first statement
blasphemous rumours says:
cause and effect are linear statements, more appropriately they are theories that exist within the realm of human thinking and scientific behaviors
blasphemous rumours says:
they have little relevence in philosohoy
blasphemous rumours says:
philosophy
Complacency comes not from self; Self-consciousness is contingent; seek the source; Jesus Christ says:
red herring, address the issue
blasphemous rumours says:

Complacency comes not from self; Self-consciousness is contingent; seek the source; Jesus Christ says:
lets count your statement as somewhat realistic, do you truly believe within your inner most being that what you said is more plausible than that of postulating a causal agency?
blasphemous rumours says:
the statement is not a matter of realism persay, it's a statement meant to nurture openmindedness
Complacency comes not from self; Self-consciousness is contingent; seek the source; Jesus Christ says:
ok, i cant understand hifalutin rhetoric as that, but we will not by-pass the simple yet swift cosmological argument
Complacency comes not from self; Self-consciousness is contingent; seek the source; Jesus Christ says:
we will*
blasphemous rumours says:
for being so philosophical you seem to revel in conformity
Complacency comes not from self; Self-consciousness is contingent; seek the source; Jesus Christ says:
when the universe or the reality in which we live began to exist (somehow??) there are some serious impossible initial conditions which need to be met to permit life, examples;
Complacency comes not from self; Self-consciousness is contingent; seek the source; Jesus Christ says:
P. C. W. Davies has calculated that the odds against the initial conditions being suitable for later star formation (without which planets could not exist) is one followed by a thousand billion billion zeroes, at least! (P. C. W. Davies, Other Worlds).
blasphemous rumours says:
your use of the word hifulatin is a little obscure
blasphemous rumours says:
what if things always existed in some form
Complacency comes not from self; Self-consciousness is contingent; seek the source; Jesus Christ says:
Again Davies calculates the estimate that a change in the strength of gravity or of the weak force by only one part in 10^100 would have prevented a life-permitting universe. (P. C. W. Davies, Other Worlds).
blasphemous rumours says:
not the universe as it is now
blasphemous rumours says:
but if you believe in god you must believed that something has always existed
Complacency comes not from self; Self-consciousness is contingent; seek the source; Jesus Christ says:
is this speculation or do you know what hypothesis you are refering to?
blasphemous rumours says:
because god exists outside the cause and effect conundrum
blasphemous rumours says:
speculation?
blasphemous rumours says:
I am merely showing you the holes in your argument
blasphemous rumours says:
in reference to cause and effect
blasphemous rumours says:
etc..
The Conspirator
philosophical but only barley. Philosophy involves logic and allot of things that has to do with theism don't.
swapnalokam
"can the idea of god be considered more of a philosophical idea, or a scientific idea, or both"? you asked this question and still you didn't put an option "both" I like to vote for "both" so please put that option too
The Conspirator
How could God be a scientific idea? It can't.
Soulfire
I'm not so sure the concept of God is scientific, but the Bible sure is. There are references to dinosaurs, gravity, innumerable stars, etc.
The Conspirator
Dinosaurs? Really? I never say a description of enormous reptiles in the bible.
Vrythramax
I guess I have to conceed that a conversation about God in itself would have to be a philosophical one. This being because of the [apparent] lack of scientific evidence so many non-believers need to prove things to themselves.

btw...you forgot to add the "both" catagory to your poll......or did you?
hyhy
Soulfire wrote:
I'm not so sure the concept of God is scientific, but the Bible sure is. There are references to dinosaurs, gravity, innumerable stars, etc.


Well i asumme one of many metaphors means description of dinosaurs and other of gravity. And im sure some others metaphors (maybe the same) will mean that, what is not yet discovered but will be discovered in future. And for those metaphors for which someone prove that they not true, catolics will find a new diffrent meaning! That's sad Shocked.
The Conspirator
Gravity is obvious, every creator that has ever been on land knows of gravity but dinosaurs, nothing ion the bible describes dinosaurs.
Soulfire
If gravity is so obvious to everyone, why was it not "discovered" until the 1680s?

Regarding dinosaurs:
It's a personal interpretation, I suppose. The Bible says that animals (including dinosaurs) were created on the same day as man. Now, that would imply that man walked with dinosaurs. This could be true, it might not be true, I can't decide. There are many claims that the bones of an Allosaurus were believed to be 140 million years old, but after carbon dating, they were only around 16,000 years old.

It's a pretty radical statement, I know, and I am not rejecting science, I'm just leaving it open to people to decide themselves. For me, God is all answers.

Just some science in the Bible:

Innumerable Stars
Jeremiah 33:22
“As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, nor the sand of the sea measured, so will I multiply the descendants of David My servant and the Levites who minister to Me.”

The "host of heaven" means stars. Now, interesting that before all the science of space someone would know there are innumerable stars, implying an infinite universe.

The Bible also says each star is unique, true today:
1 Corinthians 15:41
There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.

The Bible describes the suspension of earth in space:
Job 26:7
He stretches out the north over empty space;
He hangs the earth on nothing.

The Bible describes the atmosphere:
Ecclesiastes 1:6
The wind goes toward the south,
And turns around to the north;
The wind whirls about continually,
And comes again on its circuit.

The Bible describes the fact that one living thing comes from another living thing:
Genesis 1:11,12
Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth”; and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

There is evidence of people inhabiting caves, correct? The Bible also supports this finding:
Job 30:5,6
They were driven out from among men,
They shouted at them as at a thief.
They had to live in the clefts of the valleys,
In caves of the earth and the rocks.

Here are several examples of hydrology and the water cycle in the Bible:
Job 36:27-29
For He draws up drops of water,
Which distill as rain from the mist,
Which the clouds drop down
And pour abundantly on man.
Indeed, can anyone understand the spreading of clouds,
The thunder from His canopy?

Ecclesiastes 1:7
All the rivers run into the sea,
Yet the sea is not full;
To the place from which the rivers come,
There they return again.

Isaiah 55:10
For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven,
And do not return there,
But water the earth,
And make it bring forth and bud,
That it may give seed to the sower
And bread to the eater,

Hydrothermal vents were wrote about in the Bible in 1400 B.C., 3000 years before their discovery:

Genesis 7:11
In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.


Job 38:16
Have you entered the springs of the sea?
Or have you walked in search of the depths?

And there is plenty more, but I don't want to go on too far.
The Conspirator
So your saying no one know of gravity before Newton? That ancient people thought that if you through a ruck up into the air it would not come down, that if you jump off a cliff that you would not fall to your death, they were unaware that there was an invisible force pulling every one and everything down?
Newton didn't "discover" gravity, he was the first to realise that gravity was the attraction between two object to each other and that the grater the objects mass the grater the attraction of one object two another.
People have always known about gravity, Newton just began to understand it.
Quote:
Innumerable Stars
Jeremiah 33:22
“As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, nor the sand of the sea measured, so will I multiply the descendants of David My servant and the Levites who minister to Me.”

The "host of heaven" means stars. Now, interesting that before all the science of space someone would know there are innumerable stars, implying an infinite universe.

Have you ever seen a clear night sky? The shear amount of stars looks innumerable.

Quote:
The Bible also says each star is unique, true today:
1 Corinthians 15:41
There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.

Astronomers realised that before monotheism ever existed.

Quote:
The Bible describes the suspension of earth in space:
Job 26:7
He stretches out the north over empty space;
He hangs the earth on nothing.

That is not a description of empty space.

Quote:
The Bible describes the fact that one living thing comes from another living thing:
Genesis 1:11,12
Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth”; and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

From a seed grows a plant, that no secret, people know that since the first farmers.

Quote:
There is evidence of people inhabiting caves, correct? The Bible also supports this finding:
Job 30:5,6
They were driven out from among men,
They shouted at them as at a thief.
They had to live in the clefts of the valleys,
In caves of the earth and the rocks.

caves are good hiding spaces for people who don't won't to get cought, they are also a good place to find shelter if you don't have any. See Lot.

Quote:
Ecclesiastes 1:7
All the rivers run into the sea,
Yet the sea is not full;
To the place from which the rivers come,
There they return again.

And no one else knew that? Really? Traders who travel up and down river trading didn't know that?

Quote:
Isaiah 55:10
For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven,
And do not return there,
But water the earth,
And make it bring forth and bud,
That it may give seed to the sower
And bread to the eater,

Rain fall makes plants grow? Thats a secret? Farmers didn't know that?

Quote:
Hydrothermal vents were wrote about in the Bible in 1400 B.C., 3000 years before their discovery:

Genesis 7:11
In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.


Job 38:16
Have you entered the springs of the sea?
Or have you walked in search of the depths?

Nether of those two describe hydrothermal vents

Quote:
And there is plenty more, but I don't want to go on too far.

Too far off the edge of reality? Too late.
Soulfire
You've no source to backup your claims. Surely you can say "Well so and so knew this" "so and so knew that". It means nothing, so keep on talking.

Quote:
Have you ever seen a clear night sky? The shear amount of stars looks innumerable.

Surely you don't believe that looks are everything. It may "look" innumerable, but I assure you, they can be counted - because we can't see all of them. The Bible gives light to the fact that the universe is infinite, and contains innumerable stars.

Quote:
Astronomers realised that before monotheism ever existed.

Nothing to back up this claim, so it's pretty much irrelevant.

Quote:
That is not a description of empty space.

It's not meant to be a description of empty space, it's to show that people know that earth "hangs" in space, or is "suspended" in space. It has nothing to do with the description of empty space.

Quote:
From a seed grows a plant, that no secret, people know that since the first farmers.

Yes, but that's not entirely true. It's not until the recent centuries that cell theory has emerged, which says "all living things come from living things." Back in the day, people thoguht a pile of rags turned into mice. What they didn't see was the mice come in, breed, and mice come out. They saw the mice come out, and theorized that mice came from the rags. That was accepted until just recently, but disproved in the Bible thousands of years ago.

Quote:
caves are good hiding spaces for people who don't won't to get cought, they are also a good place to find shelter if you don't have any. See Lot.

This doesn't really refute anything, it's an empty statement, and I don't have much of a response I guess.

Quote:
And no one else knew that? Really? Traders who travel up and down river trading didn't know that?

It's referring to the water cycle, perhaps you should look just a bit beyond the literal words.

Quote:
Rain fall makes plants grow? Thats a secret? Farmers didn't know that?

Again, you've completely missed the point of the passage as I described it, so I won't bother with a response.

Quote:
Nether of those two describe hydrothermal vents

fountains of the great deep - How is that not a hydrothermal vent?
springs of the sea - Also referring to hydrothermal vents as well as natural springs

Quote:
Too far off the edge of reality? Too late.

Um, no.
The Conspirator
Your interpritation of the bible, not even and evagenilcal fundamintlest man with a 6th grade education would agree with.

Quote:
Surely you don't believe that looks are everything. It may "look" innumerable, but I assure you, they can be counted - because we can't see all of them. The Bible gives light to the fact that the universe is infinite, and contains innumerable stars.

Exatly, now take a person who grue up in a village with little acses to the knolage bace at that time and no axses to the knolage we have today. To him the stars would be inumrable.

Quote:
It's not meant to be a description of empty space, it's to show that people know that earth "hangs" in space, or is "suspended" in space. It has nothing to do with the description of empty space.

The eath isn't suspent or "hung". It simply floats in space.

Quote:
Yes, but that's not entirely true. It's not until the recent centuries that cell theory has emerged, which says "all living things come from living things." Back in the day, people thoguht a pile of rags turned into mice. What they didn't see was the mice come in, breed, and mice come out. They saw the mice come out, and theorized that mice came from the rags. That was accepted until just recently, but disproved in the Bible thousands of years ago.

It dosen't talk about rats, it says, if you plant a a seed a plant will grow. It dosen't say only life begets life. Saying "if you plant a seed a plant will grow" is not the same thing as saying "life comes from life and nothing else".

Quote:
This doesn't really refute anything, it's an empty statement, and I don't have much of a response I guess.

See Mysans, see any ancent civilisation that worshiped the sun moon and stars.
By the way glory dose not equal unique. Glory mean glorious as in grate. as in "how grate the stars are"

Quote:
It's referring to the water cycle, perhaps you should look just a bit beyond the literal words.

Water evaperate. Where dose it go? Clowds are in the sky. Where do they come from? Rain comes from clouds. Where dose it come from? Hmmm.

Quote:
fountains of the great deep - How is that not a hydrothermal vent?
springs of the sea - Also referring to hydrothermal vents as well as natural springs

How dose it descripe a hydrothermil vint? A hydro therml vent would be discribed as "A grate rush of water and steem shot out from the earth"
Springs don't come from the see.

Quote:
Um, no.

Umm, yes, far from reality, where the bible exists.
NemoySpruce
Soulfire wrote:
I'm not so sure the concept of God is scientific, but the Bible sure is. There are references to dinosaurs, gravity, innumerable stars, etc.


The Bible is scientific? can you name any scientific theory/research or invention, anything that works (or can be verified), that cites the bible as reference?
Vrythramax
[b]@Soulfire....don't allow yourself to be dragged into this kind of arguement my friend...go with your heart.

I, for one, am tired of people knocking us, being flamed, and called names for our beliefs and as such this will be my last post to this particular forum (Philosophy and Religion that is).

Have fun people....later.
The Conspirator
Vrythramax: I did not flame you! I mealy pointed out that no one has faith. To have faith is to believe in something regardless of the evidence and every Christan, every Muslim, Evey Jew and every one of an religions requires faith, has perceived evidence that to them proves there beliefs true, and that not faith. Faith is "It doesn't matter what the evidence says I know my beliefs to be true,", "I know what the evidence says and it makes sense but I believe what I believe and I know its true" or "I need no evidence and no evidence otherwise can change my mind, I know my beliefs to be true"
And no one, not you, not any one, is like that, no one, no where, at no time has any one had faith.
Examine your beliefs and you will find this to be true. Examine why you believe what you believe, you will some somethings that affirm your beliefs.
We r the SYC
the idea of God in this dimention would be scientific, in this realm of physics what else could it be, an undiscoverd or unknown element? as for outside time and space, im not sure ither catagorys would fit. Confused
Soulfire
I'm not even going to bother fighting with you, like I said to you... God could come down straight from Heaven, slap you in the face, disappear, and you still would completely reject Him. And that's fine, because you made up your mind.

Quote:
Your interpritation of the bible, not even and evagenilcal fundamintlest man with a 6th grade education would agree with.

Are comments like this necessary? At least I didn't need to flame you to try and get my point across.

Quote:
Exatly, now take a person who grue up in a village with little acses to the knolage bace at that time and no axses to the knolage we have today. To him the stars would be inumrable.

Okay, but still, when astronomers of that age were counting the stars, the man who wrote that particular verse in the Bible was right. Sure they could look innumerable, but I personally think it's significant that he knew they were. That, in turn, gives light to evidence that the universe is infinite, ages before this was an official discovery.

Quote:
The eath isn't suspent or "hung". It simply floats in space.

Webster gives the following definition for "float"
1 : to rest on the surface of or be suspended in a fluid

I assure you, hung, suspended, and float are synonymous.

Quote:
It dosen't talk about rats, it says, if you plant a a seed a plant will grow. It dosen't say only life begets life. Saying "if you plant a seed a plant will grow" is not the same thing as saying "life comes from life and nothing else".

I realize it doesn't talk about rats, if you correctly read my comment you would see that I am giving an example of what people believed, a general belief in spontaneous biogenesis. Saying a seed, which comes from a living plant, and then grows into life itself is the same thing as saying life comes from life. My point, which you've missed (twice now, I believe) is that it gave base to disprove the spontaneous biogenesis theory.

Quote:
See Mysans, see any ancent civilisation that worshiped the sun moon and stars.
By the way glory dose not equal unique. Glory mean glorious as in grate. as in "how grate the stars are"

It says one star's glory differs from another star, meaning that the stars are different. If you give me some justification to back up the ancient civilization claims, perhaps I'd consider it. Until then, these continue to be empty statements.

Quote:
Water evaperate. Where dose it go? Clowds are in the sky. Where do they come from? Rain comes from clouds. Where dose it come from? Hmmm.

It may apprear common sense to you and I, but think, this is thousands of years ago - before the science that discovered the water cycle. They didn't know about evaporation and knew little about the clouds. The Bible sheds some light on it.

Quote:
How dose it descripe a hydrothermil vint? A hydro therml vent would be discribed as "A grate rush of water and steem shot out from the earth"
Springs don't come from the see.

Well, they didn't speak that kind of language. Your definition of hydrothermal vent could be placed against millions of others. So really, this statement also has no validity.

Quote:
Umm, yes, far from reality, where the bible exists.

The Bible can be adapted to virtually any situation today, you just can't be too set in your ways to not look for the right words.

I think I'm done. You certainly aren't going to convinve me that I'm wrong, and obviously I can't convince you - so I think any continuing arguments are worthless and futile.

NemoySpruce wrote:
The Bible is scientific? can you name any scientific theory/research or invention, anything that works (or can be verified), that cites the bible as reference?

See my arguments against The Conspirator. If you search "Science and the Bible", you'll get millions of matches. I assure you, it's there, you just have to look.
The Conspirator
Quote:
I'm not even going to bother fighting with you, like I said to you... God could come down straight from Heaven, slap you in the face, disappear, and you still would completely reject Him. And that's fine, because you made up your mind.

If there was evidence for God I would consider it but there is none, And all you theists can come up with is story's of miracles that 90% of the time are 5th hand accounts of or have been found on the internet, the few that are first hand can be explained away and holes in currant scientific knowledge. None of which is evidence.

Quote:
Are comments like this necessary? At least I didn't need to flame you to try and get my point across.

Your right, that was wrong. I apologise.

Quote:
Okay, but still, when astronomers of that age were counting the stars, the man who wrote that particular verse in the Bible was right. Sure they could look innumerable, but I personally think it's significant that he knew they were. That, in turn, gives light to evidence that the universe is infinite, ages before this was an official discovery.

Fist. It has not been discovered that the universe is infinite.
Second. To a modern day astronimer who gose out and looks at the stars, the shear number of stars seems inumrable. To ancent man, the stars seemed inumrable.

Quote:
Webster gives the following definition for "float"
1 : to rest on the surface of or be suspended in a fluid

I assure you, hung, suspended, and float are synonymous.

You know what I meant. The earth isn't suspended, there is nothing holing the earth here.

Quote:
Saying a seed, which comes from a living plant, and then grows into life itself is the same thing as saying life comes from life.

No. saying seeds come from plants ans when planted grow into plants is not the same thing as saying only life comes from life, it is saying plants make seeds and seed make plants as farmer through out history has known. If it said "From life begets life and no other but God could life come to be" than you would have a point.

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It says one star's glory differs from another star, meaning that the stars are different. If you give me some justification to back up the ancient civilization claims, perhaps I'd consider it. Until then, these continue to be empty statements.

I shouldn't have to, the teachers in school should have taught you this.
The Mayans were grate astronomers, the had a calender that was as accurate as our modern one is, they predicted the movements of Veins Mars and Jupiter. To such civilisation the stars represented there gods and to them there lively hood (the ancient belief that the stars have an effect on things that happen on earth).

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It may apprear common sense to you and I, but think, this is thousands of years ago - before the science that discovered the water cycle. They didn't know about evaporation and knew little about the clouds. The Bible sheds some light on it.

Humans are good at putting two and two together, so good that they often put two and two together that doesn't;t belong together.

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The Bible can be adapted to virtually any situation today, you just can't be too set in your ways to not look for the right words.

No, it can't. Stoning a woman to death for auditory dose not fit anywhere in the modern or ancient world, killing in the name of God doesn't fit anywhere in the modern or ancient world, nothing in the bible fits in the modern or ancient world. It is mearly a book that come from a series of cults.

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I think I'm done. You certainly aren't going to convinve me that I'm wrong, and obviously I can't convince you - so I think any continuing arguments are worthless and futile.

If I debated people to try and convince them, I would be debating against you.[/quote]
Soulfire
Well, as much fun as it'd be for me to quote your comments and prove them wrong, I feel we're at a stalemate here and have no progress to make. I regret to inform you that I will no longer be arguing with you here in this thread.

Later Days
mike1reynolds
The Conspirator wrote:
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I'm not even going to bother fighting with you, like I said to you... God could come down straight from Heaven, slap you in the face, disappear, and you still would completely reject Him. And that's fine, because you made up your mind.

If there was evidence for God I would consider it but there is none, And all you theists can come up with is story's of miracles that 90% of the time are 5th hand accounts of or have been found on the internet, the few that are first hand can be explained away and holes in currant scientific knowledge. None of which is evidence.

There are innumerable examples throughout history. The most striking was when Quetzaquatl predicted the exact year and perpetrator of the destruction of Aztec culture. That isn’t exactly a 5th hand anecdotal account, it is well established historical fact.

Divine inspiration certain helps to provide striking examples, but even without there are documented examples. I watched a Discovery Channel documentary on a fire in a tall building in New Orleans in the early 60’s that trapped 9 women on the 8th floor. When the fire rushed in all but one jumped to their deaths. The last one decided that she would rather just burn up when she saw Jesus with his arms stretched towards her from outside the window the others had jumped through. I think she tried to jump into his arms because she dove out the window head first, as caught on film. Yet she ended up being the only survivor. Just out of camera range as she fell below the roof level of a lower building, she stated, “the Lord righted me” and she gestured with her hand flipping 180 degrees so that she was falling feet first. She lost her pregnancy and was in a coma for eight weeks, but she survived and went on to have 6 children.
The Conspirator
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There are innumerable examples throughout history.

Nope there isn't. There is none.
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The most striking was when Quetzaquatl predicted the exact year and perpetrator of the destruction of Aztec culture. That isn’t exactly a 5th hand anecdotal account, it is well established historical fact.

1. Where did you hear thuis?
2. He was a pagon, God dosen't like pagonism. It says in the bible God is a jelus God.
3. Even if that was true, what makes you think he was't phcycic and he could predict the future?

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I watched a Discovery Channel documentary on a fire in a tall building in New Orleans in the early 60’s that trapped 9 women on the 8th floor. When the fire rushed in all but one jumped to their deaths. The last one decided that she would rather just burn up when she saw Jesus with his arms stretched towards her from outside the window the others had jumped through. I think she tried to jump into his arms because she dove out the window head first, as caught on film. Yet she ended up being the only survivor. Just out of camera range as she fell below the roof level of a lower building, she stated, “the Lord righted me” and she gestured with her hand flipping 180 degrees so that she was falling feet first. She lost her pregnancy and was in a coma for eight weeks, but she survived and went on to have 6 children.

1. People see things, I've seen things <joke>I see things and hear things. Voices, they stutter. "C, c, c, c, c,c." "What?" "Ki, ki, ki, kill yo. yo. yo. yo."
2. People memories are far from perfect, people often done;t remember things exactly right (which explains why there are so many fight in which some one says "I didn't say that!")
3. That was an extreme situation and in extreme situation and people have an instinct to survive and our brains do things to protect us (such as blocking certain memories).
Thing about it like this, you in the middle of the wood, you get shot, the person who shot you runs away, your still alive but to stay alive you need you need to get to a hospital. You walk for houris trying to get to a place where you could call an ambulance, you tired, bleeding, in pain. You feel like giving up and die. But you see a vision of something, God, Jesus, some you care about, some one you admire, some one or something that gets you motivated to keep going.
NemoySpruce
Soulfire wrote:

See my arguments against The Conspirator. If you search "Science and the Bible", you'll get millions of matches. I assure you, it's there, you just have to look.


ok first hit is this;
http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml

first thing it says is job 40:15 onwards is talking about a dinosaur...dude, read the chapter, if thats a dinosaur then why on verse 19..

He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him.

we are supposed to worship dinosaurs now?

this is also good:

# The Bible describes the chemical nature of flesh.

Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.


Genesis 3:19
In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread
Till you return to the ground,
For out of it you were taken;
For dust you are,
And to dust you shall return.


The bible describes the chemical nature of flesh.. it is made from dust. close but no cigar. flesh is carbon based, dust or earth is sillicon based, i think. close, but not the same. If you read the bible trying to look for scientific stuff in it, you will misunderstand the message. do not do this. the bible is not a scientific source.
The Conspirator
Did you actuly read that?
None of that describs anything remotly scince.
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The Bible frequently refers to the great number of stars in the heavens. Here are two examples.

Genesis 22:17
Blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies.

Jeremiah 33:22
“As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, nor the sand of the sea measured, so will I multiply the descendants of David My servant and the Levites who minister to Me.”

Look at the frkin night sky! Look at it, go out side on a clear night and look at. Do it.

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1 Corinthians 15:41
There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.

See astroninly, astroligy, mysins, astecks and so on.

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The Bible describes the precision of movement in the universe.

Jeremiah 31:35,36
Thus says the LORD,
Who gives the sun for a light by day,
The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night,
Who disturbs the sea,
And its waves roar
(The LORD of hosts is His name):
“If those ordinances depart
From before Me, says the LORD,
Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”

That dose not describe the movements of the universe. Not at all.

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The Bible describes the suspension of the Earth in space.

Job 26:7
He stretches out the north over empty space;
He hangs the earth on nothing.

The earth is not suspinded
the earth is in a massive 3d plain, no up, no down, no right, no north, no south, no east , no west.

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The book of Leviticus (written prior to 1400 BC) describes the value of blood.

Leviticus 17:11
‘For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.’

If you bleed too much, you die. Hmmm. Blood must be very important.

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The Bible describes biogenesis (the development of living organisms from other living organisms) and the stability of each kind of living organism.

Genesis 1:11,12
Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth”; and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

And God said "I won't grass. Grow grass, grow herbs." And on his command, they grue and he said "Thats better"

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Genesis 1:21
So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

And God said "I won't many different kinds of fish and I won't different kinds of birds." A there came many different kinds of fish and birds and God said "Thats good, I'm good"

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Genesis 1:25
And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

And God said "I won't all the animals to be different, with difference spices and sub species" And any different species and subspecies came to be and God said while fondling himself and looking in a mirror "I'm good, I'm real good"

None of that describs biogenesis, it mearly says there are many difrent species.

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The Bible describes the chemical nature of flesh.

Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Genesis 3:19
In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread
Till you return to the ground,
For out of it you were taken;
For dust you are,
And to dust you shall return.

And that discribs the chemical nature of flesh how?

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The bible includes reasonably complete descriptions of the hydrologic cycle.[3]

Psalm 135:7
He causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth;
He makes lightning for the rain;
He brings the wind out of His treasuries.

Jeremiah 10:13
When He utters His voice,
There is a multitude of waters in the heavens:
“And He causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth.
He makes lightning for the rain,
He brings the wind out of His treasuries.”

In these verses you can see several phases of the hydrologic cycle—the worldwide processes of evaporation, translation aloft by atmospheric circulation, condensation with electrical discharges, and precipitation.[1]
Job 36:27-29
For He draws up drops of water,
Which distill as rain from the mist,
Which the clouds drop down
And pour abundantly on man.
Indeed, can anyone understand the spreading of clouds,
The thunder from His canopy?

Hmmm. water disapaers, if you boil water, it makes steem and there is less water when your done, steem is white, chouds are white. Hmmm *lightbolb* I got it Water becomes clouds and becomes rain.

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Hydrothermal vents[4] are described in two books of the Bible written before 1400BC—more than 3,000 years before their discovery by science.

Genesis 7:11
In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

Job 38:16
Have you entered the springs of the sea?
Or have you walked in search of the depths?

nether of which (espeshly the secon) describs hydrotherml vints.

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The Bible described the shape of the earth centuries before people thought that the earth was spherical.

Isaiah 40:22
It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.

The word translated “circle” here is the Hebrew word chuwg which is also translated “circuit,” or “compass” (depending on the context). That is, it indicates something spherical, rounded, or arched—not something that is flat or square.

Or it means disk.

I could go on but I don't feel like it,
Throw away your bibles. You won't truth, you have to seek it and you will not find it in a some religious text.
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