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Is chivalry truly dead?





brilliantbeauty
As a female, I think most of us dream of our white knight. Yet, it seems that chivalry is dying. Sweeping a woman up in his arms, roses, being her crying shoulder, it doesn't seem to be very common anymore. Crying or Very sad But I'm posing this question out to you guys: is chivalry truly dead?

Among my good friends, we're split even 3 vs. 3 Basically us sardonic pessimists versus the good jesus-loving girls in our group.
aacronite
its an interesting question.

i think in the uk ...some guys just dont know where they stand with girls...some women want to be strong and independent and not reliant on men.... so a guy has to be very careful about not offending ...

however then you meet women who want to be treated like a lady.....and expect a guy to treat them in certain other ways.

it can be very confusing and a bit of a minefield.....ive found dating women from other countries to be easier as you know they are looking for a traditional male figure
AftershockVibe
I'm afraid that chivalry died when feminism was born.

Of course there is still general politeness and goodwill but when women gained the rights to vote and work freely they gave up the expectation of men to provide for them.

I'm far from a chauvanist but I'm afraid the old adage of "You can't have your cake and eat it too" came out on top.

Of course this assumes that chivalry actually existed in the first place and not just in the world of Jane Austen.
Aless
Not always...guys can still open doors and do things for their girls just because. It doesn't have to be sexist - it's just being kind.
indeedwrestling
I can boot it up on my Apple //e any time I want! It's a great game.
aacronite
but what about when i guy holds a door open..the girl walks straight through without a thank you or even an acknowledgement?
bluefossil
I thought these days girls want to be more independent? And don't want to be treated like they need any guys' help?
Jaiye
as the saying goes... "Chivalry is dead.... and women killed it."

Seriously, i've experienced it all the time. I can't go out of my way to do something nice for a girl these days. A guy can only try for so love before he gets to the point where he says "****** it" and starts acting like a jerk. Funny thing is, girls will ask for chivalry, but the jerks get the girls (I know if from experience and life has been much more fun since I started acting all arogant and cocky).
livilou
Jaiye wrote:
as the saying goes... "Chivalry is dead.... and women killed it."

Seriously, i've experienced it all the time. I can't go out of my way to do something nice for a girl these days. A guy can only try for so love before he gets to the point where he says "**** it" and starts acting like a jerk. Funny thing is, girls will ask for chivalry, but the jerks get the girls (I know if from experience and life has been much more fun since I started acting all arogant and ****).


I will agree that women killed chivalry. Because of the feminist movement, men were put in a bad situation, loose-loose. Growing up, I watched women jump crazy over a man being polite and holding a door open for them, but I also saw some that got mad when it wasn't done. How was a guy supposed to know when and for whom to hold the door? Luckily, my husband and I teach our boys to hold doors for women. Living in the south, they have a better chance of getting a thank you though. I'm a stickler for manners, I expect my children to say please, thank you, excuse me and all that stuff that seems to be unfashionable now. I may not stress sir or maam, but I do everything else, and I've noticed that my boys have a tendency to say those anyway.

Guys, I enjoy having a door held open for me. It's a nice courtesy. If you do this for a woman who won't say thank you, think of this post. Thank you for being nice. I may not see you do it, but I do appreciate it.
AftershockVibe
I will quite happily hold a door open for a woman, or anyone for that matter, to be nice. I'd even do it for someone I know wouldn't return the favour.

However I don't really think that is chivalry. Id would say that chivalry is the expectation and unspoken duty of a man to hold open doors for women (or whatever) if they wish to pass through and you are nearby.

Chivalry is dead because of course women are quite capable of opening doors by themselves and don't hesitate to do it. Politeness is not dead, people just don't assume it is their duty be.
Citizen Kane
AftershockVibe wrote:
Politeness is not dead, people just don't assume it is their duty be.

I agree. I think this has to do with the individualistic culture in some nations, as in Holland and America can be seen.

I think this has less to do with the rights women aquired. To me it makes no difference if I open a door for a man or a women, I just do it, no matter. Thats called being pollite.

If the initial poster means there are few men who try to conquer a women like in the early days (if there were any) than take note that in chivalrous days only knights and other high classed people would know their manners. We all tend to forget that all the other lower class people didn't behave that way. They didn't have to because they weren't knights or lords. so the majority of the normal class people would be just the same as we are today. some chivalrous, other just as individualistic as people are today.
livilou
I don't think that's what she means. Let me use my own culture for this example.

I'm sure you have all heard of Southern Hosptality. It's not as big as it used to be because it's hard to know if the person knocking at your door was going to rob you or what. Don't get me wrong, it's still there, but because of the changing times, it's changed to and not for the better. Growing up, we all used to know our neighbors, pretty much everyone on our street. Now if you know the person living next to you, you're doing pretty good.

I feel it's more the common courtesy that she's talking about. There used to be a time when, if a gentleman said words that he didn't feel appropriate for women or children to hear, he would either not say them or apologize for saying them if he slipped. Now most women curse worse than most men. And it's not just holding doors, there were different ways that women were treated like ladies, holding a chair while a woman sat, standing when she stood, things like that.

Politeness is not dead, but it's dying. Do you know how many times I see people almost run into someone else and won't even say "Excuse me"? Or a simple "Thank You" to someone for doing something nice. I've seen kids treat their elders worse than a dog. If I had done that as a child, my mom would have blistered my britches, but good. I was taught to treat my elders with respect, and others with common courtesy regardless of age or color. Yes Sir/Maam and No Sir/Maam were, and still are a part of my everyday vocabulary.

Anyway, I'll get off my soapbox for now. Needless to say this is a pet peeve of mine.
HoboPelican
Reading this got me real curious about what chivalry really is. The dictionary calls it, "The qualities idealized by knighthood, such as bravery, courtesy, honor, and gallantry (Nobility of spirit or action; courage) toward women".

Whew! pretty wordy, but I think there are lots of guys who could stand up to the first 3. Not sure exactly wtf nobility of spirit is, though. Wink

Anyone who uses women's rights as an excuse not to be polite, helpful and respectful to women in general, most likely wouldn't have acted that way before the woman's movement anyway. Smile
Subsonic Sound
On one hand, it's easy to see how men get confused and even annoyed by women wanting to be treated completely equally, yet still wanting doors held open for them, and all that kind of thing. But to the truly chivalrous, I honestly don't think gender should really come into effect.

Instead of 'Don't hit women', why shouldn't it read 'Don't hit those weaker than you?'

If a woman starts a fight, there is no reason on this earth why a man she attacks shouldn't be able to defend himself. And attacking those weaker than you without a DAMN good reason is wrong, regardless of gender.

Along these lines, I saw an advert recently that said 'Teach him young that violence against women is wrong'. What's wrong with teaching him young that violence is wrong?

Holding open doors for women

Well... unless I'm in a real hurry, I tend to hold doors open for anyone walking close behind me, or even if they're not that close, if they've got something like a trolley, pram or wheelchair. Why not?

"bravery, courtesy, honour"

Fine traits in any situation.


So I really don't see why feminism should be the death of chivalry. I don't think chivalry need have anything to do with gender.
Qube
[opinion]
Chivalry is dead, only the spirit remains.
I agree w/ many others that it died when women expected equal rights.
Equal to a man, treated like a man (to a point.)
Sure I'm all for being polite, but that is nowhere near what chivalry was "back in the day."
I'll hold a door open if I see a lady (or a guy) coming.
I'll be courteous to others, not blatantly showing disrespect.
I'm even all for doing kind things out of the "goodness" of my heart.
But let's face it, the times have changed.
Alot of the things that were considered "chivalrous" aren't even possible by today's means.

So as long as we're not asses to everyone, then I guess we really have no problem.
But I admit, in no way am I gonna go completely out of my way to make someone else comfy.
Unless of course there's a good reason.

And as for the whole girls wanting white knights, I'm so against it.
Every single damn time the girl will always choose an idiot over the guy she'd be better off w/.
So many times has the nice guy finished last.
Then again, maybe it's just where I'm living that girls are attracted to these guys.
Oh well.
[/opinion]
livilou
I also hold doors for people. I don't feel that it's something that I shouldn't do just because I'm female, but I want my boys to do it to people as well, which they usually are, but since they are only 5 and 9, sometimes they forget. Oh well.
frozenhead
I think chivalry still lives somewhere in the corner.

[opinion] Chivalry is not only for girls as we may speak it (generally) [/opinion]
Garg
Chivalry is still alive ... You just have to go to the right places !!!

Do you actually want the rotten teeths, the witch burnings, and the foul odors ????? Wink
Soulfire
I regard myself as very chivalrous, perhaps not in the sense that it used to be. It's the small things like opening the door for a woman, getting her chair for her, hugging her, etc. that make me chivalrous (as I believe and have been told). And in a more big picture, respect women. Too many guys that I know treat women so badly, are abusive, and mean. I'm not like that at all.

I hope I didn't come off stuck-up sounding or anything.
livilou
I don't know if any of you have watched the movie Fat Albert, but one scene in there describes what I think of when a guy is being chivalous.

He's walking down a street with a young lady and tells her that she needs to be on the inside away from the street. She asks him if it's some kind of moncho thing, and he says "No, if a car drives by and splashes water in their direction, I can move you out of the way." That is being a gentleman.
Citizen Kane
livilou wrote:
I don't know if any of you have watched the movie Fat Albert, but one scene in there describes what I think of when a guy is being chivalous.

He's walking down a street with a young lady and tells her that she needs to be on the inside away from the street. She asks him if it's some kind of moncho thing, and he says "No, if a car drives by and splashes water in their direction, I can move you out of the way." That is being a gentleman.


Hell yeah, or being in front of a lady when paying at the grocery's so you can pay up for the lot. Or walking behind her in a crowdy street so you don't lose her. Or bringing home dinner and / or making it when you know she could've had a rough day (not even knowing for sure).

Now THAT is chivalry! It's not dead, it's just not where you'd expect it to be!
ankur.vatsa
--------------------------------------------
brilliantbeauty
hmmmm... you all have valid points. I think all men walk a fine line there. But I don't think we killed chivalry, I think we killed male dominance (or are trying to kill it Razz ). But you're right, chivalry/politeness is often confused with chauvanism. Which is why Mr. Darcy should be real.
To answer Ankur's question, I'm still relatively young, but my few boyfriends/crushes seem to always be awkward when they're feeling chivalrous, or they're complete psycho path stalker-like people that I jsut want to get away from. So basically, well, I say nothing.
cbf-cma
Chivary was never really real to begin with. Knights often raped women and treated them horribly. I think you're talking about Disney movies or something.
Garg
Quote:
Chivary was never really real to begin with. Knights often raped women and treated them horribly. I think you're talking about Disney movies or something.


Ah ! Then why do we call it chivalry ?? I think in those times, there were huge differences between nobles and peasants. You had to show immense respect to nobles (women or man) which i think gave way to the term chivalry. On the other hand, peasants and poor people were in fact treated horribly (mostly after battles and victories).

I still think chivalry is the good part of those times that have lived on...

My 2 cents
kazikame
Given the way most males I know treat females, it'd be rather easy to believe it's dead. There's still a spark of it in some people though.
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