usa soldiers who were accused of killing civilians in a billage of bagdat are found not guilty.h**p://www.columbusdispatch.com/national-story.php?story=dispatch/2006/06/03/20060603-A1-03.html
are you surprised ? i am not. do people know how many people usa kill since 1990 in iraq?the number of usa casulties is well known.what about the iraqis?
last year in Haditha us troops killed 30 civilians on the road.
John Murtha, who served in Vietnam and is a Democrat congressman from Pennsylvania, made his remarks before the release of a military report into the November 19 incident, when US troops searched for fighters after a marine was killed by a roadside blast.
"Our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them and they killed innocent civilians in cold blood," he said.
"That is what the report is going to tell ... there was no firefight."
An investigation by Time magazine into the incident alleged that up to 30 civilians were killed, including women and children, when US forces entered a house in the town and opened fire.
and what is total amount people in iraq that usa killed ?nobody knows the exact number of course but with the first entrance of usa the mojority of iraqi army whose number is between 150-200 thousand was killed immediately.then troops got in fight with baas miltans and killed them too of course.with the second entrance so called resistive forces which is assumed to be over 5 thousand were also killed.many civilians of cource including women and children were killed with later operations.so the total number is
thought to be definetly over 150 thousand .
is it enough?noo. now usa is up to separating the country.
| LA Ridge wrote: |
I was a Marine for 12 years, that's what I got paid for.
Having a "friendly" nation right in the zone is our best defense currently. It's a military strategy with benefits. The world is oil hungry my friend, as sad as that is, we are all dependent.
Is this "Nation Building"? Probably. Iraq doesn't really appear to be converting to our will easily. There are too many old traditions and separate factions that will probably never conform to our way of thinking. Nor should everybody. That will have to be seen to be believed in my opinion. I don't think they will fully convert.
|
this is a marine talking who also says
| LA Ridge wrote: |
Listen, I am a Marine. My thinking apparatus is to kill them all, men, women and children, and worry about crying later! That was what I was trained to do.
|
why does iraq have to convert?
usa is trying to set new borders in iraq now which will cause thousands of other peole to die in pain.but as long as great america is wealthy who cares right?
(is this topic too serious for you? 
) I see your point, But If you where President Bush, Maybe you'll understand the situation. In a war, Civillians die all the time because even Civillians get involved in the war. Some are just in the wrong place at the wrong time during a carpet bombing campaign, Some are there to exploit an opportunity or have no choice because they have to.
But when your in war, With the stress youll eventually go psycho. And those troops in Vietnam that killed people in a house, They probably couldnt handle the war anymore and just lost it. C'mon, every second in a war is like your last second, Are you going to get shot in a few minutes? Ect.
| alkady wrote: |
In a war, Civillians die all the time because even Civillians get involved in the war.
|
A war is done between relatively equal forces.usa being in iraq is not a war.people should stop saying that.it is an invasion.who is usa fighting to?are all the iraqis terrorists?they don t even have one single tank now or plane or anything.how many iraqi lives equals to an american or canadian?one thousand two thousand how many?
speaking of vietnam do you people know how many vietnamese did us kill?
more than two million. (2,000,000)(except the war casulties of course)and for what?because they wanted to be kommunist.
why do people have to die for twisted sick american purposes..?
As i said before if us wants to stop terrorism they should get the hell out of ME and stop horrasing third world countries.It’s hard to tell if you just here to rant or to have an interesting discussion felisleo, but I will assume the latter
| felisleo wrote: |
| A war is done between relatively equal forces |
Could you give an example of one of these wars? I can think of one.
The US and coalition is not currently at war with Iraq, they are assisting it in recovering from years of oppression and internal intertribal war. The few days that the US were at war very few citizens where killed as was the case in Afghanistan. (Actually, I hear a story about a rumor going around in Afghanistan, it was apparently mentioned by a captured fighter, that our pilots were woman. Why else would they be so careful and accurate vaporizing combatants purposely holding up next to a school full of children without harming the children?
After Iraq was subdued fighting went on between the US and coalition with loyalist resistance groups and insurgents. These loyalist and insurgents used the population against the US and coalition.
Understand that if you are fighting a group willing to hide behind women and children while they shoot at you, you must neutralize this barbaric tactic post haste.
These groups also make us of improvised munitions (home made bombs). These munitions killed, are killing and will continue to kill Iraqis. Not just after being planted but during their construction. These groups are as willing to dispense Iraqis as coalition troops are willing to dispense ammunition, as they are view quite the same respectively.
Currently, there is the terror groups reverting back to the old tribal fighting. Despite this the Iraqis are making tremendous improvement in their land. The US will continue its presence in Iraq until it is a thriving nation and the envy of the area. It could easily be similar to Dubai given time.
It is a mistake to view the US as being a belligerent giant slaughtering Iraqis. Understand they invaded Iraq because it was viewed at the time to be the biggest threat to stability in the area. Iraq will be a thriving democracy and democracy like civilization will spread. This is the key. There is a war that is being fought long before 9/11 by those who would oppress the world. I am thankful that the US is fighting back despite its citizens complacency and lack of fortitude. | horseatingweeds wrote: |
It is a mistake to view the US as being a belligerent giant slaughtering Iraqis. Understand they invaded Iraq because it was viewed at the time to be the biggest threat to stability in the area. Iraq will be a thriving democracy and democracy like civilization will spread. |
You know this will be true, only if there are civilians left in Iraq after all is said and done. No matter whose bullet kills them its the civilians that are dying. I don't think there will be left a nation left to salvage and if there is it might go the Vietnam way. After the coalition troops pull out the forces against democracy might get a strong grip over the country. Same that happened with Vietnam. Not that Afghanista is in any better state with its own government and all. Maybe I'm a bit too pessimistic but thats how the world looks to me. | ainieas wrote: |
| horseatingweeds wrote: |
It is a mistake to view the US as being a belligerent giant slaughtering Iraqis. Understand they invaded Iraq because it was viewed at the time to be the biggest threat to stability in the area. Iraq will be a thriving democracy and democracy like civilization will spread. |
You know this will be true, only if there are civilians left in Iraq after all is said and done. No matter whose bullet kills them its the civilians that are dying. I don't think there will be left a nation left to salvage and if there is it might go the Vietnam way. After the coalition troops pull out the forces against democracy might get a strong grip over the country. Same that happened with Vietnam. Not that Afghanista is in any better state with its own government and all. Maybe I'm a bit too pessimistic but thats how the world looks to me. |
My friend, Iraq is nothing like Vietnam. South Vietnam was totally infiltrated by the north before the US even arrived. The North had a well organized military with strong leadership and Soviet backing. The north was also highly motivated and indoctrinated. Many in the south knew working with the north would be most advantageous in the long term. The US learned many great lessons in that conflict.
The strife we are currently observing in Iraq is a minority of desperate peoples with so much hate in their hearts that they can not see the potential of their country and are willing to kill indiscriminately to gain little but revenge. They fight for nothing but hate and tribal rivalry.
The Iraqi majority, however take their losses and admirably honor their dead by working for peace and a healthy society. I certainly can not say that I myself have such fortitude. Perhaps, but I hope it is never tested in such ways.
Your pessimism will certainly be validated if the anti-Bush crowd in the US has their way. It is as if they would have Iraq fall apart just to prove a point. I don’t think …. Actually I know that the average American has no idea of the ramifications of failure in Iraq. The reality is that failure would not be a possibility if the US citizen had as much intestinal fortitude as it does azz fat.Extremely Terrible Amount I think...
US is horrible... They are crue lkillers --
| tommy18503 wrote: |
Extremely Terrible Amount I think...
US is horrible... They are crue lkillers -- |
Can you elaborate as to how a non-cruel killing is performed? | horseatingweeds wrote: |
| The few days that the US were at war very few citizens where killed as was the case in Afghanistan. |
Just a "few" years US has been at "war" in Iraq.
And just a "few" hundred thousand people have died.
disclaimer - downplay, if any, was purely unintentional.
| horseatingweeds wrote: |
| Actually, I hear a story about a rumor going around in Afghanistan, it was apparently mentioned by a captured fighter, that our pilots were woman. |
Are you saying that the pilots sent to bomb Afghanistan were women ?
Are you saying that women pilots are more careful and compassionate ?
Are you saying that being bombed by a woman pilot is a more rewarding experience for the Afghans in some sense ?
What's you point ?
| horseatingweeds wrote: |
| Why else would they be so careful and accurate vaporizing combatants purposely holding up next to a school full of children without harming the children? |
"They" also "vaporized" children purposely playing in streets and village people purposely attending wedding parties.
Not to mention spraying entire purposeful villages with White Phosphorus.
Surely, that's not illegal since US itself doesn't subscribe to the protocol III.
What's most important to note here is that not having signed the convention themselves in no way means that US cannot self-righteously invade other nations on the pretext of destroying their imagined WMDs.
The torture camps ? Well those are just isolated incidents and are purely for recreational purposes anyway.
| horseatingweeds wrote: |
| It is a mistake to view the US as being a belligerent giant slaughtering Iraqis. |
Let's see -
US - Yes
Belligerent - Yes
Giant - Yes
Slaughter - Yes
Iraqis - Yes
But, US a belligerent giant slaughtering Iraqis ? Heck no !
| horseatingweeds wrote: |
| These groups also make us of improvised munitions (home made bombs). These munitions killed, are killing and will continue to kill Iraqis. Not just after being planted but during their construction. |
"home made bombs" ?
Surely you meant Weapons of Mass Destruction, right ?
And quite agreeably, these crude home made bombs are far too deadlier than the carpet bombs and the mine field of bomblets that the cluster bombs leave behind.
| Quote: |
| Currently, there is the terror groups reverting back to the old tribal fighting. Despite this the Iraqis are making tremendous improvement in their land. The US will continue its presence in Iraq until it is a thriving nation and the envy of the area. |
The US will continue their presence in Iraq as long as there's "incentive" for doing so.
It's naive to believe that US is putting its soldiers to war just to "clean up" Iraq and hand it over to the Iraqis on a platter.
War is planned out by politicians and politics is not charitable.
| horseatingweeds wrote: |
| It could easily be similar to Dubai given time. |
Why ? Is UAE next up on the American "liberation" agenda ?
| horseatingweeds wrote: |
| Understand they invaded Iraq because it was viewed at the time to be the biggest threat to stability in the area. |
Unfortunately, that's rather hard to understand.
Especially when everybody (except, perhaps, supporters of few American politicians) has known all along that Iraq posed no real threat.
| horseatingweeds wrote: |
| Iraq will be a thriving democracy and democracy like civilization will spread. |
Can you explain why every other country must yield and conform to American civilization and ideas of governance ?
| scorpio wrote: |
| Can you elaborate as to how a non-cruel killing is performed? |
Like this - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5033648.stm ! | horseatingweeds wrote: |
| felisleo wrote: | | A war is done between relatively equal forces |
Could you give an example of one of these wars? I can think of one. |
of course WW1 ,WW2, israil vs. arabs ,even usa vs.vietnam(because vietnamese could fight back. iraqis don t have an army)
| horseatingweeds wrote: |
(Actually, I hear a story about a rumor going around in Afghanistan, it was apparently mentioned by a captured fighter, that our pilots were woman. Why else would they be so careful and accurate vaporizing combatants purposely holding up next to a school full of children without harming the children? |
how cute...i guess parents of children who got shot going to a wedding would have smth to say about american sensitivity
from the beginning of the time US entered iraq caos exists.everyday new bombs new gangs .and us troops of course are killing more and more people.the fact is iraq was a lot more stabilized before us attacked.
what about the fact that saddam and baas party was supported when he was fighting with iran for eight years.cia gave financial and military support to saddam once.that s how he got scut missiles.
coming to side effects.before US began invasion in 1990 turkey who is iraq
north neighbour had a 10 billion dollar trading volume with iraq.turkey bought oil sold food ,electrics,electronic stuff and many more. as the attack began it was cut so sharp that southeast of the country was schocked.the poorest region of the country came even poorer.kurdish orgined people in the region joined pkk which is a cruel terrorist group.turkey lost a lot of people a lot of money ant worst of all lost years fighting it.the country had to spend very valuable resources to fight with terrorism.
now usa is supporting kurdistan on north iraq which is letting pkk to set camps in attack turkey.and you ll see as soon as us leaves (if that ever happens) arabs, sheas and kurds will fight and the country will be separated.many more people will die.(and is it gonna be america s fault? god noo)
| horseatingweeds wrote: |
It is a mistake to view the US as being a belligerent giant slaughtering Iraqis. |
really? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5033648.stm !(enough said for this sentence.)
USA has been screwing ME since 1950s.god knows how many lives were sacrified for political games of america.but as i said as long as americans are wealthy who cares right? | felisleo wrote: |
ME has been screwing everyone not Muslim for over 1300 years... |
fissed
He didn't really say that, I just corrected him...How many Civilians did the US kill in Japan?
Tell me the answer to that, and then tell me you're still worried about Iraq.
While counting Iraqi casualties, most of us forget that Saddam was brought to power by the Americans because he was Anti-Communist, and during all his killing sprees, USA was his strongest ally. So, USA is responsible for these casualties also, other than what happened from 1990 onwards. It was only in the late 80's when Saddam's brutalities crossed limits(according to US standards) and USA felt enough shame to feel embarassed, and began a campaign against Saddam.
Unfortunately this is a fast moving world, what happened yesterday is only remembered if it suits us, otherwise we conveniently forget all the bitter facts.
And when u put the number of deaths from 1990 onwards at 150,000 You should keep in mind that just because of sanctions, 1 million + children died, and their is no count of how many Adults died because of sanctions.
| ocalhoun wrote: |
How many Civilians did the US kill in Japan?
Tell me the answer to that, and then tell me you're still worried about Iraq. |
LoL!
Thank God the media wasn't real time back then... 
| S3nd K3ys wrote: |
| ocalhoun wrote: | How many Civilians did the US kill in Japan?
Tell me the answer to that, and then tell me you're still worried about Iraq. |
LoL!
Thank God the media wasn't real time back then... |
Are you crazy? 
If the media was covering WWII like they are Iraq the US would most likely not bothered taking over Japan. Then the Russian would have rolled in and blessed the Japanese people with the blessing of communism. Then they wouldn’t be the evil capitalist juggernaut they are today.
NO BLOOD FOR FREEDOM!!!!! 
NO BLOOD FOR FREEDOM!!!!!
Ha ha ha ha, Look at me, I’m stupid. 
Bad publicity, terrible publicity, in fact... things like this shouldn't happen, it's the last thing we need to happen. But another fact is, they do, and they cannot be controlled.
To take the actions of a few soldiers and portray it as the attitude of an entire nation, or the intention of an entire nation, is not only horribly misleading and ignorant, but incredibly stupid.
I agree things like this should not happen... But we, as a human race, are too quick to judge and stereotype (everyone, including myself, is guilty).
| horseatingweeds wrote: |
| S3nd K3ys wrote: | | ocalhoun wrote: | How many Civilians did the US kill in Japan?
Tell me the answer to that, and then tell me you're still worried about Iraq. |
LoL!
Thank God the media wasn't real time back then... |
Are you crazy? If the media was covering WWII like they are Iraq the US would most likely not bothered taking over Japan. Then the Russian would have rolled in and blessed the Japanese people with the blessing of communism. Then they wouldn’t be the evil capitalist juggernaut they are today.
NO BLOOD FOR FREEDOM!!!!!
NO BLOOD FOR FREEDOM!!!!!
Ha ha ha ha, Look at me, I’m stupid. |
Real Time being the key phrase here... | S3nd K3ys wrote: |
Real Time being the key phrase here... |
<sarcasm> being the key imaginary tag. Lack of constitution being the key to US downfall.
No war for any reason will ever be supported whose cost can be viewed on the TV, not counting the first few weeks of patriotic novelty.
Key assumption being that if the US exits or avoids a conflict these things we see won’t happen.
Americans are far too comfortable to understand that they live in a violent world where pacifist entities simply cannot exist. I know people who seem to want the US to fail, as if just to prove that their side is right in saying we should have stayed out of Iraq. The reasons they give are the same reasons to avoid any war.
Key key to this topic, as war as the gods of war are concerned the US hasn’t even killed any Iraqi civilians. | horseatingweeds wrote: |
Key assumption being that if the US exits or avoids a conflict these things we see won’t happen.
|
Sure they won't happen, sure they won't.. 
Oh, wait, ask the Kurds about that, mkaythks.horseatingweeds are you telling that usa manipulating ME , invading a country ,killing thousands of people is ok because they are fighting with terrorism?(remember that us was a big supporter of bin laden when he was fighting against russia so basicaly usa helped terrorism to be born)do you seriosly think americans are killing for world peace?(like in vietnam or latin america )
| horseatingweeds wrote: |
Ha ha ha ha, Look at me, I�m stupid. |
yes you are..
| S3nd K3ys wrote: |
| felisleo wrote: |
ME has been screwing everyone not Muslim for over 1300 years... |
He didn't really say that, I just corrected him... |
are you capable of making a point?.. | felisleo wrote: |
are you capable of making a point?.. |
Yes. But you have proven your incapability of getting one. | S3nd K3ys wrote: |
The only reason the conflict over there continues is because it's not just an Israeli-Palestinian conflict, it's an Arab-Israeli conflict. , it's about modern civilization vs mid-evil barbarians. You might call it an Islamic Jihad agains the Israelites. |
when this being someone s point it is really hard to answer.should i call him
nazi , idiot ,white pig (like blacks say 
)behind the sarcastic posts you are a hateful blind american. i will say it again .lets compare the numbers.
us killed 2millions vietnamese 300000 japanese thousands of south asians
numberless latin americans and as i said before like 200000 iraqis.(not to count the people killed in military takeovers supported by cia) and still you can call arabs the barbarians... | felisleo wrote: |
and still you can call arabs the barbarians... |
What would YOU call them??
It's not OK to saw people's heads off. It's not OK to target women and children. It's not OK to hide behind women and children when attacking.
It's not OK
Not unless you are a barbarian. | S3nd K3ys wrote: |
It's not OK to saw people's heads off. It's not OK to target women and children. It's not OK to hide behind women and children when attacking.
It's not OK
Not unless you are a barbarian. |
why are you complaining? they are giving you reason to shoot em all ..the women the children , men , cows ,chickens everything...isn t that what you want kill em all and get what you want? there is gotta be a pic of the children slughted in hadita somewhere here?or vietnam ?or ...never mind the list is too long to try... | felisleo wrote: |
| S3nd K3ys wrote: |
It's not OK to saw people's heads off. It's not OK to target women and children. It's not OK to hide behind women and children when attacking.
It's not OK
Not unless you are a barbarian. |
why are you complaining? they are giving you reason to shoot em all ..the women the children , men , cows ,chickens everything...isn t that what you want kill em all and get what you want? there is gotta be a pic of the children slughted in hadita somewhere here?or vietnam ?or ...never mind the list is too long to try... |
You mean this one??
...or perhaps this one??
And how many people have died at the expense of religious extremists in the middle east? Perhaps thousands more. Civilian casualties are unavoidable in times of war, like I said before.
It's a childish argument - "You killed xx, so I'll kill yy".
By using an argument like this, you're basically reducing yourself to their level.
| horseatingweeds wrote: |
| My friend, Iraq is nothing like Vietnam. South Vietnam was totally infiltrated by the north before the US even arrived. The North had a well organized military with strong leadership and Soviet backing. The north was also highly motivated and indoctrinated. Many in the south knew working with the north would be most advantageous in the long term. The US learned many great lessons in that conflict. |
I beg to differ on almost all accords. There is no real backing for your claim that "South Vietnam was totally infiltrated by the north before the US even arrived". How do you judge this? We are talking about a country that was artificially divided by imperialist powers. I would say that Vietnam was infiltrated by french and americans long before they became communist.
The Moscow-Hanoi link was looked for desperately, but none could be found, which was even admitted by the CIA. Not even a link between Beijing and Hanoi could be found. This was a major grievance to the US in their propaganda effort.
"The north was also highly motivated and indoctrinated". Of course when it comes to third world countries they are "indoctrinated", but in the case of western countries in general and US in particular it is called "enlightened" and "free minded".
"The US learned many great lessons in that conflict", partly true. The US learnt that intervention in third world countries must be done carfully with minimal own casualty not to upset home opinion and also to have clear cut goals. However, this knowledge often collide will political doctrine which we have seen in Iraq recently, where the goal is diffuse but at least there is little casualty of own troops, so home opinion is not out of hand this time.those are drawings.and noo i meant these pictures
it says "surgeant Boudreault killed my dad and knocked up my sister" funny man!!
haditha...
haditha again
and of course my lei vietnam
see?i can search internet too..
but wait at any war americans can kill civillians right?sorry my fault.. | Quote: |
| but wait at any war americans can kill civillians right?sorry my fault.. |
You're just not understanding the fact that war can bring about civilian casualties. There is absolutely no way to protect all the citizens of Iraq and fight only insurgents, if you find one, make sure you get President Bush on the phone.
And you know that pictures can be deceiving (this goes for both arguments here). What's happening in the picture may not always be what actually happened, and it's hard to get the full story from one picture. Though they may speak thousands of words, pictures can still lie.
Okay, that picture tells me nothing. You can't verify that the boy is dead, and if the boy is dead, you have no idea who or what caused his death. For all you and I know, the boy could be sleeping.
Do you know that those are Israeli soldiers? Do you know who they are beating up? For all you know, that man just raped a woman and ran off, so the soldiers were trying to stop him. My point being again, you don't know the story.
And just who is "surgeant Boudreault?" Do you know he's from America? Do you even know that translation? Was it made up? Is this a fake? Once again, you don't know the entire story.
Okay, so I could post pictures of dead people lying around and say it was from wherever I want. You give no source for your pictures, and nothing to back them up. And do you know who killed the people? No, you don't.
Things like this only seem to perpetuate an anger that shouldn't exist between people.
I find it interesting that the pictures are from your website too... Hmm... | Soulfire wrote: |
...
Okay, so I could post pictures of dead people lying around and say it was from wherever I want. You give no source for your pictures, and nothing to back them up. And do you know who killed the people? No, you don't.
Things like this only seem to perpetuate an anger that shouldn't exist between people.
I find it interesting that the pictures are from your website too... Hmm... |
Wow, I missed this one. Soulfire looks like he has it under control.
felisleo, way to post up pictures of Israelies and claim they're Americans... .
Last edited by S3nd K3ys on Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:58 pm; edited 1 time in totali know those ones are israilis.it was put against the idiotic racist claim of S3nd K3ys about israilis representing the civilization and arabs representing the barbarians..the story under the pic said soldiers were beating up the guy because he didnt stop when he was asked.there are also more violent pics of israilis killing arabs..(but that s long discussion and yes i know arabs aren t completely innocent on that issue but still thinkin that they lead a prisoned life there ..i don t know what would be the motive that leads a mother to locate bombs on her very child..anyway..) the pics were taken from my site because some sites didn t open correctly so i collected them im my site ,technical issues i mean.the last picture is taken from wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre
the site that released haditha pics is not opening at the moment but this site has similar pics.. http://swashblogger.blogspot.com/2006/06/haditha-pictures-dont-say-thousand.html
also this one includes a video
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/26/AR2006052602069.html
american soldier holding the cartoon is taken from a turkish site which said the pic was taken in bagdat village..
internet is full of american crime pics.you just need to bother to look ...
if wanted i can bring more pics with resources..
please do consider the numbers here.it is not ok that america is killing thousands and thousands and thousand of people and playing with destinies of poor countries for its own benefits.. | felisleo wrote: |
| i know those ones are israilis. |
Yet you still try to pass them off as Americans torturing children.
Your credibility = 
| felisleo wrote: |
please do consider the numbers here.it is not ok that america is killing thousands and thousands and thousand of people and playing with destinies of poor countries for its own benefits.. |
What thousands and thousands and thousands are you talking about? (And don't go find a bunch of pictures of people killed by terrorists and/or their dictator's and try to say they were killed by Americans.)
.
Last edited by S3nd K3ys on Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:57 pm; edited 1 time in total | S3nd K3ys wrote: |
What thousands and thousands and thousands are you talking about?
|
how many thousands are the in 2hundred thousand? 3*1000<200000
how many thousands are there in 2 millions? 3*1000<2000000
ohh..you must be using your fingers to count..(if you really have difficulty understanding the above statement don t hasitate to ask ) | felisleo wrote: |
| S3nd K3ys wrote: |
What thousands and thousands and thousands are you talking about?
|
how many thousands are the in 2hundred thousand? 3*1000<200000
how many thousands are there in 2 millions? 3*1000<2000000
ohh..you must be using your fingers to count..(if you really have difficulty understanding the above statement don t hasitate to ask ) |
I understand numbers. I'm just curious which stinky orifice you pulled them out of, because you obviously can't provide a source for them, or you would have by now.well that depends.what sources are reliable for you? cnn?fox? it would be difficult to find a number on cnn about how many iraqis usa killed.as i said the exact numbers will be clarified after the war when us leaves..(like that will happen) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq#Deaths
this one says between 30000-100000 which only include 2003 invasion.
most are killed by americans.the big number came out in 1990.as i wrote the majority of the iraqi army which is thought to be 150 thousand were killed.
the number 2million comes out from vietnam which is also not the exact number but since us is not there anymore those numbers are reliable.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War#Casualties
get some info here.. | felisleo wrote: |
most are killed by americans. |
You must have a HUGE ass, because that's exactally where you pulled THAT statement from.
This is from WIKI | Quote: |
The neutrality of this article is disputed.
Please see the discussion on the talk page. |
Seriously, where, oh where does it say AMERICANS killed those people? .
FYI, you can't just inject your own words into this kind of debate and have people take you seriously.
Last edited by S3nd K3ys on Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:57 pm; edited 1 time in totalWe're in war. People die in war. I never said I like it, I never said I agree it, but sometimes you have to fight for peace. I know it might not make sense to a lot of people, because it's an abstract comment, but it's the truth.
Now, your numbers... You have no clue what you're talking about and there is no credibility here. I could do what you're doing! I could say "Oh, the U.S.A. has killed millions of Iraq" and then I could post pictures of dead people and claim them from Iraq. Now, this is what you're doing. You're babbling on and nothing will come of it.
It's war. It's not "Let's sit down and have tea with the Iraqis and talk government." It's war.
Iraq's affairs need Iraq itself to solve it. A foreign country enters other countries without most of their CITIZENS PERMISSION, what do we call this? They're interfere in the internal affairs of other countries, it's invasion.
If another country do the same to you, invade your country, kill your people, what would you think of this? Is it an "friendly assistance" to help your country convert to a better form? (of course, for US has overwhelming military force, this won't happen. Only US can invade others, but others can't do the same to US, 'cause they don't have the same power to match americans')
Iraqis need US to help them, but not this kind of help.
In my opinion, US is the only coutry that have its ability to lead the world, but from what it has done and what it's doing, US is losing its leadership gradually. Do the Third World and the allies of US truly trust US? Many will say "NO"
(Sorry for my using the red enlarged font 
) Of course they are barbarian because civilization that you say is a monster that have a tooth. This is the description of your civilization.
| mephisto73 wrote: |
| There is no real backing for your claim that "South Vietnam was totally infiltrated by the north before the US even arrived". |
You have no idea what you’re talking about. Where do you think the war was fought? It was all in the south. Viet-cong were slithering over the border constantly and being aided. This was the whole fight! Trying to root out the communists in the south and keep them from coming over and or moving supplies.
The French took over a piece of Vietnam in 186? after they started killing Christians. Later they absorbed the rest and split it into two parts, making a total of three. North, south and indo Vietnam.
Then the Germans bulldozed the French in Europe so the French made a deal that they would hold the administration and allow Japan to hold the military authority. Then the Japanese were defeated.
The French returned to Vietnam to reestablish thing. The country then had two separate COMMUNIST groups, one north and one south. Ho Chi Minh declared all of Vietnam independent and this spurred the south to attack the French with guerilla war fair. Ho Chi Minh decided not to assist his southern fellows just yet because he was fighting a couple hundred thousand Chinese.
After Ho Chi Minh took care of the Chinese he turned south on the French and beat them down hard core. The US, being interested in the Iron Curtin not swallowing the entire world began sending in special forces to help train the South Vietnamese troops.
So yes, Vietnam was teeming with communists up, down, left and sideways.
| mephisto73 wrote: |
| The Moscow-Hanoi link was looked for desperately, but none could be found, which was even admitted by the CIA. |
The Russians supplied the North with ALL of it weapons. They carried the Kalashnikov 1947, a 7.62mm assault rifle. This rifle is the one the USSR mass produced and sent to any aspiring communist nation willing along with plenty of ammunition, regardless that 1/100 rounds misfired.
Where to you think the North got its MIGS? The USSR didn’t have franchise fighter plane outlets. The other weapons too including stuff to make IEDs and the good old RPG (rocket propelled grenade).
| mephisto73 wrote: |
"indoctrinated", but in the case of western countries in general and US in particular it is called "enlightened" and "free minded".
"The US learned many great lessons in that conflict", partly true. |
Indoctrinated peoples fly suicide missions and make human wave attacks. Enlightened people use body armor and communication.
The US learned to either go to war or stay at home. There is not middle. Also they learned not to micro manage the battle field, just give the commander what he needs.A person who has not even got a stick to protect himself, but facing many over geared solidiers' gun holes. Only he could do is watching them killing his kids, babies, sisters, brothers, mother, father..........many ones didn't do any harm to the soldiers, but they were killed, injured. The soldiers come to this country, killing their people, even children and babies. When they are doing masses of harm to the most innocent people, they laughed: "We come from a civilized country, we are civilized, and you are all monsters, you all need to be killed BY US, FOR HONOR AND JUSTICE!" (Oh, that reminds me of the suked Japanese army in World War II, anyhow, they are as disgusting as the same 
)
Now I know, massacre is promoted in some country, it must be good for someone to kill some completely unarmed people, even children and babies 
and then LAUGH OUT LOUD: "You are monsters!" Yeah, how honorable you are.lol
I have a dream, that one day some beast nation will become a real civilized country(instead of pretending to be), and stop doing harm to other countries.
(maybe I'll be banned from here, cuz I konw my words maybe displeased some "PATRIOTS", lol) | Quote: |
| Indoctrinated peoples fly suicide missions and make human wave attacks. |
Please, sacrficing ones life for a cause that you strongly believe in woudl hardly account for indoctrination. If you could save your family by doing a "suicide attack" wouldn't you do it?
But it is convenient to believe that the enemy is "indoctrinated" while we are "enlightened". The problem is that it is a false world view and will give you all kind of problems trying to understand it.How many journalist and other innocent American citizens have been caputred and beheaded on film? How many of our people have the insurgents killed? They even kill themselves!
| Soulfire wrote: |
| How many journalist and other innocent American citizens have been caputred and beheaded on film? How many of our people have the insurgents killed? They even kill themselves! |
are u trying to be funny?
who did invite them to Iraq? | felisleo wrote: |
usa soldiers who were accused of killing civilians in a billage of bagdat are found not guilty.h**p://www.columbusdispatch.com/national-story.php?story=dispatch/2006/06/03/20060603-A1-03.html
are you surprised ? i am not. do people know how many people usa kill since 1990 in iraq?the number of usa casulties is well known.what about the iraqis?
last year in Haditha us troops killed 30 civilians on the road.
John Murtha, who served in Vietnam and is a Democrat congressman from Pennsylvania, made his remarks before the release of a military report into the November 19 incident, when US troops searched for fighters after a marine was killed by a roadside blast.
"Our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them and they killed innocent civilians in cold blood," he said.
"That is what the report is going to tell ... there was no firefight."
An investigation by Time magazine into the incident alleged that up to 30 civilians were killed, including women and children, when US forces entered a house in the town and opened fire.
and what is total amount people in iraq that usa killed ?nobody knows the exact number of course but with the first entrance of usa the mojority of iraqi army whose number is between 150-200 thousand was killed immediately.then troops got in fight with baas miltans and killed them too of course.with the second entrance so called resistive forces which is assumed to be over 5 thousand were also killed.many civilians of cource including women and children were killed with later operations.so the total number is
thought to be definetly over 150 thousand .
is it enough?noo. now usa is up to separating the country.
| LA Ridge wrote: |
I was a Marine for 12 years, that's what I got paid for.
Having a "friendly" nation right in the zone is our best defense currently. It's a military strategy with benefits. The world is oil hungry my friend, as sad as that is, we are all dependent.
Is this "Nation Building"? Probably. Iraq doesn't really appear to be converting to our will easily. There are too many old traditions and separate factions that will probably never conform to our way of thinking. Nor should everybody. That will have to be seen to be believed in my opinion. I don't think they will fully convert.
|
this is a marine talking who also says
| LA Ridge wrote: |
Listen, I am a Marine. My thinking apparatus is to kill them all, men, women and children, and worry about crying later! That was what I was trained to do.
|
why does iraq have to convert?
usa is trying to set new borders in iraq now which will cause thousands of other peole to die in pain.but as long as great america is wealthy who cares right?
(is this topic too serious for you? ) |
Too many !!Nobody has answered my question(s).
How many people have the Iraqis killed of us? They do it intentionally, ours (with the exception of 1 or 2 incidents) are all accidental and simply casualties of war - which will happen regardless of what the U.S. does while it is in Iraq.
It seems like every day you hear about a car bomb exploding somewhere in Iraq, killing 9-10 of OUR citizens, OUR military. Why aren't you ranting about that?
The 1 or 2 incidents I referred to are the result of a rogue act by a few soldiers. It was disgraceful, and disgusting, but you cannot use the actions of a few men as the belief of an entire nation.
| Soulfire wrote: |
Nobody has answered my question(s).
How many people have the Iraqis killed of us? They do it intentionally, ours (with the exception of 1 or 2 incidents) are all accidental and simply casualties of war - which will happen regardless of what the U.S. does while it is in Iraq.
It seems like every day you hear about a car bomb exploding somewhere in Iraq, killing 9-10 of OUR citizens, OUR military. Why aren't you ranting about that?
The 1 or 2 incidents I referred to are the result of a rogue act by a few soldiers. It was disgraceful, and disgusting, but you cannot use the actions of a few men as the belief of an entire nation. |
They done that because the US has invaded their home.
Let put yourself in their shoes. What will you feel if Iraq invaded US, in the name of "to free the country from dictatorship or whatsoever?" | Soulfire wrote: |
How many people have the Iraqis killed of us? They do it intentionally, ours (with the exception of 1 or 2 incidents) are all accidental and simply casualties of war - which will happen regardless of what the U.S. does while it is in Iraq. |
The guise of "good intentions" or "collateral damage" is not a not a moral justification. If one does act in a way with knowledge of the consequences then the actions must be judged as if its consequences were intended. I am sure that US knew what would be the effect in the civilian population when bombing electrical plants, water production facilities and waste water treatment plats etc. To call the effects of this very deliberate actions with well know consequences for "casualties of war" and justify them with them being "unintentional" does not make any sense. This must be considered a sort of moral truism.
For example you cannot just fly a plane into a skyscraper and claim the casualties unintentional collateral damage, while the ultimate goal might have been not to kill innocent, but to influence the politics. Rightfully there is little discussion about the moral justification for 9/11. If we are to have any sort of moral credability we must judge our own actions as we judge others. This should be self evident to any objective observer.
| Soulfire wrote: |
| It seems like every day you hear about a car bomb exploding somewhere in Iraq, killing 9-10 of OUR citizens, OUR military. Why aren't you ranting about that? |
There is little or no significance of criticizing the actions of the enemy. It takes no moral courage to criticize what is obviously criminal actions. No one would be impressed by a Soviet politruk condemning/criticizing US actions in Latin america in the 80-ies, nor would it have any real significance. However intellectuals and observers criticizing the actions of own country/system, sometimes with considerable personal risk, deserve the more admiration and respect. Also, the significance of this type of commentary is generally on a different magnitude. Pointing out the bestial crimes of your enemy never were and never will be a measure of ones moral and itellectual integrity, and the example given here may very well be considered self evident, thus there is no need to point out the obvious.
| Soulfire wrote: |
| The 1 or 2 incidents I referred to are the result of a rogue act by a few soldiers. It was disgraceful, and disgusting, but you cannot use the actions of a few men as the belief of an entire nation. |
Fine. If you hold yourself to your own standards this is an excellent principle.Any futher discussion of this topic should be made in the Middle East sticky topic HERE
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