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NAZIS





mantasx
First of all I'd like to declare that I don't have anything about any race! In school I've been learning about nazis, and Hitler and stuff lately. So it was only for about a week and I still had interest in that stuff, so I went to google.com, and typed in "nazi". I was suprised the results I found. I thought that racism was pretty much over in U.S, but I was wrong.
Quote:
One BIG thing that stood out from all the rest, is the immensity of the non-White invasion of America - EVERYWHERE I went, non-Whites of every "kind"...from brown meztizo's, to asians, arabs and "indescribable's"...made me wish for the "good ol'days", when it was ONLY negroes that we had to deal with! lol Sadly, much of America is turning more and more into a third-world dumping ground. And so many "whites" are sadly being infected into this system's "lifestyle" as well.
I found this at http://www.americannaziparty.com/news/index.php?report_date=2006-05-14
Whong
mantasx wrote:
First of all I'd like to declare that I don't have anything about any race! In school I've been learning about nazis, and Hitler and stuff lately. So it was only for about a week and I still had interest in that stuff, so I went to google.com, and typed in "nazi". I was suprised the results I found. I thought that racism was pretty much over in U.S, but I was wrong.
Quote:
One BIG thing that stood out from all the rest, is the immensity of the non-White invasion of America - EVERYWHERE I went, non-Whites of every "kind"...from brown meztizo's, to asians, arabs and "indescribable's"...made me wish for the "good ol'days", when it was ONLY negroes that we had to deal with! lol Sadly, much of America is turning more and more into a third-world dumping ground. And so many "whites" are sadly being infected into this system's "lifestyle" as well.
I found this at http://www.americannaziparty.com/news/index.php?report_date=2006-05-14


I hate Nazis and Hitler, he did so much of wicked and evil to God's nation the Jews! Well atleast he is paying his price now! Laughing Exclamation
Indi
Whong wrote:
I hate Nazis and Hitler, he did so much of wicked and evil to God's nation the Jews! Well atleast he is paying his price now! Laughing Exclamation

Yes, he's paying the same price as Abraham Lincoln, Thomas Edison, Bertrand Russell, Linus Pauling, Carl Sagan, Richard Feynman, Isaac Asimov, Kurt Vonnegut Jr., Robert Heinlein, Tolstoy, Gene Roddenberry, Mark Twain, Galileo Galilei, John Lennon and Thomas Jefferson, among others. Yay merciful God.

Oh wait, hang on.

Hitler was a Christian - a Roman Catholic to be exact. His schtick was "Positive Christianity", which is "Christianity with all the negative influences (the Jews) removed".

Nevertheless, Hitler was indeed a Christian, and thus, by the doctrine of Christianity, his sins are forgiven and he is going to heaven.

The others that I listed are going to hell.

Yay just and fair God.
Whong
Indi wrote:
Whong wrote:
I hate Nazis and Hitler, he did so much of wicked and evil to God's nation the Jews! Well atleast he is paying his price now! Laughing Exclamation

Yes, he's paying the same price as Abraham Lincoln, Thomas Edison, Bertrand Russell, Linus Pauling, Carl Sagan, Richard Feynman, Isaac Asimov, Kurt Vonnegut Jr., Robert Heinlein, Tolstoy, Gene Roddenberry, Mark Twain, Galileo Galilei, John Lennon and Thomas Jefferson, among others. Yay merciful God.

Oh wait, hang on.

Hitler was a Christian - a Roman Catholic to be exact. His schtick was "Positive Christianity", which is "Christianity with all the negative influences (the Jews) removed".

Nevertheless, Hitler was indeed a Christian, and thus, by the doctrine of Christianity, his sins are forgiven and he is going to heaven.

The others that I listed are going to hell.

Yay just and fair God.


Really, I've never ever heard of Hitler being a Christian! But well, being a Christian is one thing, and being saved an other! If he truly believed in Jeusu Christ and that He is the Son of God, so then maeby so!

I don't know, well we'll see it once we get there! Wink Idea
AftershockVibe
Indi wrote:

Hitler was a Christian - a Roman Catholic to be exact. His schtick was "Positive Christianity", which is "Christianity with all the negative influences (the Jews) removed".


Just because you proclaim yourself a christian doesn't make it so. I'm fairly sure that "Do not murder" is a christian commandment against mass genocide.
Rolling Eyes
Indi
AftershockVibe wrote:
Indi wrote:

Hitler was a Christian - a Roman Catholic to be exact. His schtick was "Positive Christianity", which is "Christianity with all the negative influences (the Jews) removed".


Just because you proclaim yourself a christian doesn't make it so. I'm fairly sure that "Do not murder" is a christian commandment against mass genocide.
Rolling Eyes

1.) I never said Hitler "proclaimed" himself to be anything. He was a Christian because (according to the information we've collected about him, and there's plenty) that's what he was. Whether you believe he was or not is irrelevant. According to the bible, accepting Jesus means your sins are forgiven and you're on your way to heaven. All sins, remember? You don't get to decide who is or who is not a Christian, you don't get to say that this man's sins are too much to forgive, and you certainly don't get to say who gets saved. There's only one "person" that gets to do that, and he's laid out the instructions for what to do to be forgiven. All the evidence we have suggests that Hitler accepted Jesus as his saviour. Thus, he's a Christian. Thus, he's saved.

2.) Technically, Hitler didn't murder. He designed and put in place a system that caused the deaths of millions. That's not murder - not by the English definition of the word, and not by the definition of the original Hebrew word in the text.

3.) Besides, even if what Hitler did is murder in God's eyes, so what? Even if he really was a murderer six million times over, his sins will be forgiven, remember? There is only one unforgivable sin in the bible, and as long as Hitler didn't do that (which is doubtful, given what we know of his character and his beliefs), he's waiting for you in heaven.

Sorry, but I didn't make the rules.

What I find interesting is that, so far here, and everywhere else I have brought this up, all reaction and objection has been to the idea of sharing heaven with Hitler. Rather un-Christian, I should think - shouldn't you be forgiving, and hating the sin and not the sinner, and all that? But what's really interesting is that, so far... no one has expressed any regret or objection to the idea that all of those good people I listed are going to hell. The idea of sharing heaven with Hitler provokes a lot of reaction. The idea that Sagan, Edison, Einstein and Lennon are going to hell to suffer eternal damnation doesn't even raise an eyebrow.

Doesn't that strike you as... cold?
DopeyCriz
"Heil Hitler!"
Shocked Mad Mad Mad

I really hate him, but still interested.
Im deaf myself and he commanded his bloody Nazis
to elimiate deafs, disabled and jews.

No way Im meeting him in heaven, as I got no religion and
I have done unforgivable sins.

Somehow, learning about the Nazi is interesting, I dunno why really.


~DopeyCriz
(Don't put yourself off cos im deaf Mad )
horseatingweeds
@ Indi

I can’t tell for sure where Hitler, Abraham Lincoln, Thomas Edison, Bertrand Russell, Linus Pauling, Carl Sagan, Richard Feynman, Isaac Asimov, Kurt Vonnegut Jr., Robert Heinlein, Tolstoy, Gene Roddenberry, Mark Twain, Galileo Galilei, John Lennon and Thomas Jeffersonare. I doubt however that Hitler or anyone so interested in there own will are serving that of our Lord. Finding “evidence” that Hitler practiced Christian traditions or used the Bible to justify his atrocities does not make him a follower of Jesus.

And I wouldn’t describe hell as “paying a price”. You seem to feel, by sarcastically quoting “yay merciful God” that God is sending people to a place to be punished. This idea is preached be some Christians but it seems much more to me, through study of the Bible, that hell is simple a way to describe the end of a path other than following the Lord.
death_dealer
Yeh cool hitler in heaven

him and some other dictators might sit down for a cuppa dont ya recon yeh thay can go over what havoc thay coused on earth LOL

look islam teaches that all muslims will enter heaven but there are muslims who will suffer hell first couse of there acctions on earth
Whong
I personally don't believe that Hitler is in heaven, but God knows!
Didn't Hitler comit suicide! Confused Idea

If he did, he most probably isn't in heaven! Idea
Indi
horseatingweeds wrote:
I doubt however that Hitler or anyone so interested in there own will are serving that of our Lord. Finding “evidence” that Hitler practiced Christian traditions or used the Bible to justify his atrocities does not make him a follower of Jesus.

If he accepted Jesus as his saviour, then by the words of Jesus himself, he's going to heaven. John 3:16, remember? Practicing traditions or not means nothing. Being self-serving or not also means nothing, because his sins are forgiven if he accepts Jesus as his saviour. All sins. Same as with you or anyone else.

It's as simple as this: if Hitler did accept Jesus as his saviour - and all indications suggest he was a devout believer, which makes that highly likely - then his sins are forgiven and he's going to heaven. The rules for him are the same as the rules for you. Just because you don't like Hitler doesn't mean he doesn't deserve the same treatment.

So Hitler's probably in heaven. There goes the neighbourhood.

horseatingweeds wrote:
And I wouldn’t describe hell as “paying a price”. You seem to feel, by sarcastically quoting “yay merciful God” that God is sending people to a place to be punished. This idea is preached be some Christians but it seems much more to me, through study of the Bible, that hell is simple a way to describe the end of a path other than following the Lord.

Yeah, right, the "end" of that path is eternal suffering in fire. And, assuming that these people aren't going to waltz into eternal suffering and stay there without someone forcing them, it follows that someone sends them there. Who? Obviously God (who else is there, after all). And for what? For choosing to believe in something other than what God wanted. If your study of the bible missed that part, or the part where God calls those who are being sent to hell "cursed", you need to do a more thorough study. I could quote you the verse(s), but I'll trust your studies will lead you to them eventually.

How can you not call it paying a price? How can you not call it punishment? Eternal bliss if you do a thing, eternal suffering if you don't. Are you saying you show up at the gates of heaven, and God's representative says, "you didn't believe in what God said, so you are being rewarded with an eternity of agony and endless suffering and misery in a sulphurous fire"? Punishment seems to me to be the word that works there. All of those people I named have been "cursed" by God to suffer eternal damnation because of what they chose to believe. Not what they chose to do, what they chose to believe.

Whong wrote:
Didn't Hitler comit suicide! Confused Idea

If he did, he most probably isn't in heaven! Idea

There is only one unforgivable sin, and suicide ain't it.
horseatingweeds
@ Iindi

My point is that if Hitler truly had accepted Jesus as his savior he would not have lived like he did. The tree is known by its fruit. Jesus himself described people who assumed they would end up in the kingdom but would be turned away, a verse quoted earlier in the thread, because they where not sincere. Accepting Jesus is not simply muttering a special spell.

Yours argument that for God “sending” people to hell could also be used to argue that because a student did not attend school the school punished him by “sending” him to a low paying job. I doubt hell is a little box somewhere that God locks up all the people that did not to his bidding. It seems much more likely to me, through study of the Bible and not listening to evangelists, that hells description is the default location of humanity. Hell being the region outside of God’s realm. Heaven is a place that we are all invited to all we need to do is accept.
Tex_Arcana
I'd be more upset if I thought all those folks were really going to suffer for all eternity but since I'm not a Christian I believe they will be reincarnated.

Back to the original subject:
mantasx wrote:
First of all I'd like to declare that I don't have anything about any race! In school I've been learning about nazis, and Hitler and stuff lately. So it was only for about a week and I still had interest in that stuff, so I went to google.com, and typed in "nazi". I was suprised the results I found. I thought that racism was pretty much over in U.S, but I was wrong.
Quote:
One BIG thing that stood out from all the rest, is the immensity of the non-White invasion of America - EVERYWHERE I went, non-Whites of every "kind"...from brown meztizo's, to asians, arabs and "indescribable's"...made me wish for the "good ol'days", when it was ONLY negroes that we had to deal with! lol Sadly, much of America is turning more and more into a third-world dumping ground. And so many "whites" are sadly being infected into this system's "lifestyle" as well.
I found this at http://www.americannaziparty.com/news/index.php?report_date=2006-05-14


If you were able to go this long without realizing that racism is not dead in the U.S. you are either not from the U.S. or very lucky. Prejudice is still a big problem in the world at large and not only in the U.S.. The person that does not have some prejudice one way or the other, but takes everyone they meet on a case by case basis is very enlightened indeed.

Somefolks really try hard to do better, and some folks give up and let their prejudice rule their lives. It's not even limited to race, but also to religion, polotics and ideas. Think about it sometime. Perhaps you have a perception of something that is wrong, it doesn't have to be a serious wrong, maybe something like believing that Oreos actually taste better if you don't open them up first and eat the creamy middle. If you happen to be an "eat the creamy middle first" person such people may seem like heretics to you. Then let's say one day someone saves your life, someone that is a good person with some very abmirable qualities. To show your appresiation you give that person a large package of Oreos only to discover that not only they eat them whole but they like to dip them in coffee instead of milk...... What do you do then? Do you hate them for their misuse of Oreos, or re-evaluate your opinion about the nature of such blatent Oreo abuse?
Indi
horseatingweeds wrote:
My point is that if Hitler truly had accepted Jesus as his savior he would not have lived like he did. The tree is known by its fruit. Jesus himself described people who assumed they would end up in the kingdom but would be turned away, a verse quoted earlier in the thread, because they where not sincere. Accepting Jesus is not simply muttering a special spell.

By that logic, no one's going to heaven unless they accept Jesus mere moments before they die. Because, according to the bible, humans are horrible sinning bastards by nature and nowhere is it written that accepting Jesus makes you stop sinning. Hitler sinned after being "born again", and presumably so has everyone else who was ever born again. Including you. So if your post-born-again sins can be forgiven, why not his?

You keep claiming that Hitler's belief in Jesus was in some way not sincere, and I keep repeating that all indications we have suggest that it was. Hitler was opposed to the church, because he saw it as a corrupt institution, but he was very much a believer in Jesus and the bible (in fact, he had very much in common with Martin Luther - more that you would think at first).

Hitler sincerely believed that his actions were not sins, or when they were, they were justified by higher forces in the name of a higher cause, and thus were forgiveable - and he based this belief partly on his interpretation of the bible. This was much like the Christians who "questioned" people in the various inquisitions - they were well aware that they were sinning, but believed they would be forgiven because their sins were necessary to do "God's work".

If Hitler was wrong about that, then he was mistaken. I can understand God taking a dim view of deliberate, malicious sinning when you know it's wrong and you're just doing it because you feel like it. But if God can't forgive the sins of stupidity, how merciful is he really?

horseatingweeds wrote:
Yours argument that for God “sending” people to hell could also be used to argue that because a student did not attend school the school punished him by “sending” him to a low paying job. I doubt hell is a little box somewhere that God locks up all the people that did not to his bidding. It seems much more likely to me, through study of the Bible and not listening to evangelists, that hells description is the default location of humanity. Hell being the region outside of God’s realm. Heaven is a place that we are all invited to all we need to do is accept.

Your analogy comparing where people go when they die to where people work after they leave school age (and your claim that my argument could be applied to a school) is bizarrely flawed.

First, no schools promise to control or even affect where you eventually work. No school says that if you work well and follow the rules you will be guaranteed a sweet job - at best, they claim this is more likely. No school says that if you don't work well and don't follow the rules you will be guaranteed a bad job - again, at best, they simply claim this is more likely. By contrast, God is the final word on everything, so whatever happens to you and wherever you end up in life or after, it was God's will.

Second, no school picks your job or career path. If you do poorly in art, no school will bar your path to becoming an artist. God, on the other hand, asserts that he is the one and only decision maker in where you go after death. He promises that if you stick to his program he'll let you into heaven, but he's the one making the decisions and setting the rules, and even when you follow the rules he still reserves the final judgement.

No, my argument doesn't apply to schools deciding what job you get. But it could be used to argue that because a child did not behave themselves according to their parents' rules, his parents "punished" him by sending him to the corner (or by not taking him to Wonderland, if you prefer). Why? Because in that case, the parent has stated that the child's behaviour (or lack thereof) and choices affect where he goes - just like how God has stated that your actions (or lack thereof) and choices affect where you go. The parent also has final say on where you go (or don't go) - just like God does with regards to your afterlife. Thus, my argument applies - and... makes sense, doesn't it? Or do you claim that the child's default destiny was to be punished, and only good behaviour allowed him to get his reward (or lack of punishment, at least)?

You are desparately trying to absolve God of guilt for sending people to hell... after God has, in the bible, explicitly declared that he is the ultimate resonsibility for that decision. Sorry, doesn't fly. You are also trying to water down the idea of hell, calling it simply anything that is not heaven (are we in hell now?)... despite the fact that God and/or Jesus on several occasions describe hell as a place of everlasting torture in "sulphurous fire". I don't see simply refusing an "invitation" to an exclusive club (which is essentially how you have described heaven and the process of going there) warranting eternal suffering. You are also claiming that it is simply our "default destination", and God, out of the goodness of his "heart", has simply offered us something else and better... but that's complete balderdash given that God created us, which, if you're argument is correct, implies that he deliberately chose to make the default destiny for all of us a place of infinite torment... and only after the fact offered a small minority of us a means of escaping that destiny.

Tex_Arcana wrote:
I'd be more upset if I thought all those folks were really going to suffer for all eternity but since I'm not a Christian I believe they will be reincarnated.

Thank you for saying that! It's always troubled me far more that anyone could be sentenced to eternal suffering (it troubles me when anyone gets sentenced to any suffering, but I realize that this is not a perfect world and we are not omnipotent so we can't make it so without some difficulties, so sometimes we must sacrifice one for many). I had many reasons for rejecting Christianity, but none so strong as this one. I would rather spend an eternity in mild dissatisfaction with complete ****** like Hitler, Stalin and (ugh) even Pat Robertson, than in infinite bliss and happiness while even one person suffers eternal torment. As distateful to me as it is to have to co-exist with horrible people, it is still more distasteful - even intolerable - for even even the most horrible of us suffer like that forever.

Tex_Arcana wrote:
If you were able to go this long without realizing that racism is not dead in the U.S. you are either not from the U.S. or very lucky.

"you are either not from the U.S. or very lucky"... aren't those the same thing? (Kidding. ^_^)

But yeah, you're right. But this goes a little beyond just racism. For Nazis to continue to exist in this day and age after all that has happened - for people to continue using those names and symbols (although, of course, as you pointed out, the underlying ideals are unfortunately common) - that's pretty ballsy. Of course, plain old racism in America is hardly a revelation.

Still, mantasx, if you want your eyes to be really opened, keep digging. There's a lot more complexity - and, yes, even darkness - under the pretty surfaces of any country if you really look. Official policy and popular beliefs are hardly all there is to America - or anywhere.

Why not start here, since you're already on that track with the ANP (American Nazi Party): http://www.politics1.com/parties.htm

(And, if you just want a laugh, check out the Libertarian National Socialist Green Party. They are environmentally-concerned, culturally tolerant Nazis. Official logo:

^_^)
Soulfire
Quote:
Nevertheless, Hitler was indeed a Christian, and thus, by the doctrine of Christianity, his sins are forgiven and he is going to heaven.
Only if he was a practicing Christian, and truly sorry for his sins. Being sorry for your sins is called repenting, and if he did, then yes, he would get to share in the glory of God. By the way, how do you know he was a Roman Catholic? He obviously didn't follow Christianity very well. "Thou shalt not kill" comes to mind.

And yes, you'd be surprised the racism that exists today. It's nowhere near ended in the U.S. or anywhere.
horseatingweeds
@ Iindi

You know, you have a funny habit of dancing around the issue and outlining the blatantly obvious. My point is simply that God is not “sending” anyone to hell any more than school is “sending” student to low paying jobs or with your example, a parent is not making a child grow up to be irresponsible for not following their rules. Hell is no punishment. A punishment, as with your example of sending a child to the corner, is a correction of poor behavior. Sending a child to a corner for the rest of his life won’t correct anything.

Hitler was a brilliant, paranoid psychopath. He had people killed on a whim. If he did not believe what he was doing was wrong it was because he rationalized it. He could be in Gods grace currently, God is certainly willing to forgive. Look at Paul, he killed plenty of God’s people and God forgave him. The bottom line is that Hitler was belligerently and arrogantly following his own ambition, which is not the path to God, whether he “believed” it was or not.

Indi wrote:
You are also claiming that it is simply our "default destination", and God, out of the goodness of his "heart", has simply offered us something else and better... but that's complete balderdash given that God created us, which, if you're argument is correct, implies that he deliberately chose to make the default destiny for all of us a place of infinite torment... and only after the fact offered a small minority of us a means of escaping that destiny.


Read my point carefully as I reiterate it. God created us so he would have someone to love him on their own will. He gave us free will to follow him or not, we are all welcome. Here on earth not following him is not so bad because we have all kinds of other things to fulfill us. Upon release from this world we will continue on the path WE chose either to Gods presents or outside of it. The torment described in the Bible is not a special oven God built but simply a place outside of his presence. Being totally out of the Lord’s presence I think is the torment.

This is of cores simply a conclusion that I have drawn.

However, what if your notion is true, and God made us, he made a heaven, and made a hell. Then he implemented a little contest to see who could find there way to the good spot. And, oh-yay, when someone makes him made he sends them to hell too.

WELL, HE IS GOD!!!! It is his prerogative. Will you rebel against him saying, I think this is wrong, I know better! I’m voting for Satan in the next election.
Indi
Soulfire wrote:
By the way, how do you know he was a Roman Catholic?

As I've said, repeatedly, we have loads of evidence, ranging from his own writings to testimony from people that knew him, statements made publicly and privately to friends, etc. etc. etc.

Do I know he was a Christian? Of course not. No one does but the big man himself. But all evidence seems to suggest that he was a believer, and quite devout - and there was no real reason for him to fake it. Thus, it is logical to assume that he knew what he was supposed to be doing to get into heaven, believed that it should be done, and did it one way or another. We can also safely assume he spent his last hours "wrapping" up any spiritual loose ends, given what we know of his behaviour then - so very likely he got down on his knees with Eva and sincerely asked for forgiveness. Thus, it is most likely that he is going to heaven. Do I know any of this? No, but given what I do know, it is the most likely scenario by far.

The point I was making was that being a complete ****** on Earth doesn't necessarily rule out your being in heaven. So what if Hitler caused the deaths of millions? God forgives all sins (except the one).

Soulfire wrote:
He obviously didn't follow Christianity very well. "Thou shalt not kill" comes to mind.

*shrug* No one's perfect. As I've said, he was a devout believer, and certainly with the Russians banging on his door he had a lot of time to think about whether he was going upstairs or downstairs in the big after. Given the threat of eternal damnation, it's reasonable to believe that he got down and sincerely apologized for everything, and thus was forgiven and granted a ticket to heaven.

Honestly, Soulfire, what baffles me is the hypocrisy of the whole thing - everyone who has commented so far (with one exception, and he was not Christian - and I have noticed the same results when I have pointed out the same thing other places) has denounced Hitler as unfit for heaven either openly or implied same. What happened to charity? Hate the sin not the sinner? Doesn't anyone want Hitler to go to heaven - at the very least to spare him eternal torment? I'm not even Christian - hell, according to some points of view, I'm not even moral because of what I (don't) believe - and I don't want to see him suffer. Hitler represents the antithesis of everything I believe, but I'd put up with an eternity of having to live with Hitler if it meant sparing him an eternity of torture. I'd do the same for any intelligent being. Where's the Christian compassion? Not a one has even said anything like "Hitler is most likely going to hell... which is unfortunate". Not one. In fact, some have even expressed glee that a thinking being is going to be tormented for eternity!

You gotta help clear this up for me, Soulfire (I'm glad you popped in here >_<) - everything I've seen of what you write demonstrates clarity of thought and a deep understanding of your religion and the implications of its teachings. So tell me, am I way off base here in calling this position hypocritical? To claim to be adhering to a doctrine of love and compassion on the one hand, and demanding - even celebrating - the eternal torment of beings that think and feel on the other. Isn't that duplicitous? Or am I missing something here?

horseatingweeds wrote:
You know, you have a funny habit of dancing around the issue and outlining the blatantly obvious. My point is simply that God is not “sending” anyone to hell any more than school is “sending” student to low paying jobs or with your example, a parent is not making a child grow up to be irresponsible for not following their rules. Hell is no punishment. A punishment, as with your example of sending a child to the corner, is a correction of poor behavior. Sending a child to a corner for the rest of his life won’t correct anything.

Yeah, well you've got a funny habit of denying the blatantly obvious, so I feel the need to point it out.

Case in point, that hell isn't punishment. You claim that "punishment" is something that corrects poor behaviour. Nonsense. How does standing in the corner remove the desire or the impulse to, for example, throw toys? Or make noise? Or... anything??? It doesn't. It prevents bad behaviour by acting as a threat. What happens is that standing in the corner means the child is prevented from playing or doing anything else that they want. It's "null" time to the child, and once they understand what that actually feels like - which, being children, they can only do by experiencing it - they understand it to be something that should be avoided if at all possible. Thus, the threat of the corner is hung over their heads to influence their behaviour. To scare them into behaving the way their parents - the ones who can send them to the corner - want them to behave.

How is hell different? It is described as the worst torment imaginable, with burning in sulphurous flame, endless thirst, weeping and gnashing of teeth, etc. Being adults, we don't need to experience it to appreciate that it is something that we most certainly want to avoid. Thus the threat of hell is held over our heads to influence our behaviour. To scare us into doing what God - the one who decides whether or not we go to hell - wants us to do.

Thus, hell is punishment.

But the really silly part is that I didn't even need to bother to show you the logical fallacy of your position, given that the bible explicitly calls hell eternal punishment.

Whatever "studies" of the bible you're doing, I really think you should put more effort into them. There are many nebulous things about the concept of hell as presented in the bible to be sure - but there is absolutely no vagueness about the idea that hell is a place of eternal torment where you are sent as punishment for not doing what God wants you to do. That much is stated pretty explicitly.

horseatingweeds wrote:
This is of cores simply a conclusion that I have drawn.

Based on...? I assume you have some biblical evidence from your "studies" to back up your conclusion. Right? I mean, it's not just wishful thinking that has nothing to do with what's actually written in the bible, right?

horseatingweeds wrote:
However, what if your notion is true, and God made us, he made a heaven, and made a hell. Then he implemented a little contest to see who could find there way to the good spot. And, oh-yay, when someone makes him made he sends them to hell too.

WELL, HE IS GOD!!!! It is his prerogative. Will you rebel against him saying, I think this is wrong, I know better! I’m voting for Satan in the next election.

*blink* Are you freaking kidding me?!?! Of course I would rebel!!! I would be morally bound to rebel! I could not live with myself for a minute - let alone an eternity - if God were actually like that and I did nothing about it. I would use every milligram of my power and abilities to find God and stop him. I couldn't do anything else in good conscience. If I succeed, then I would have saved potentially millions of people from an eternity of torment. And if I fail, I burn. But I would rather burn for an eternity knowing that I tried to stop that kind of suffering than live in heaven for an instant knowing that I did nothing about it.

Would you be ok living with yourself in heaven, knowing that God was sentencing people to eternal torment just because they displeased him? Could you turn your back on their suffering? Could you possibly accept God as your leader, trust his word, and just do as he tells you to do knowing that he was arbitrarily sending millions to endless torture?

I find those questions particularly relevant here, actually, but I won't say why just yet. Astute readers should see where this is heading.
horseatingweeds
Quote:
horseatingweeds wrote:
You know, you have a funny habit of dancing around the issue and outlining the blatantly obvious. My point is simply that God is not “sending” anyone to hell any more than school is “sending” student to low paying jobs or with your example, a parent is not making a child grow up to be irresponsible for not following their rules. Hell is no punishment. A punishment, as with your example of sending a child to the corner, is a correction of poor behavior. Sending a child to a corner for the rest of his life won’t correct anything.

Yeah, well you've got a funny habit of denying the blatantly obvious, so I feel the need to point it out.

Case in point, that hell isn't punishment. You claim that "punishment" is something that corrects poor behaviour. Nonsense. How does standing in the corner remove the desire or the impulse to, for example, throw toys? Or make noise? Or... anything??? It doesn't. It prevents bad behaviour by acting as a threat. What happens is that standing in the corner means the child is prevented from playing or doing anything else that they want. It's "null" time to the child, and once they understand what that actually feels like - which, being children, they can only do by experiencing it - they understand it to be something that should be avoided if at all possible. Thus, the threat of the corner is hung over their heads to influence their behaviour. To scare them into behaving the way their parents - the ones who can send them to the corner - want them to behave.

How is hell different? It is described as the worst torment imaginable, with burning in sulphurous flame, endless thirst, weeping and gnashing of teeth, etc. Being adults, we don't need to experience it to appreciate that it is something that we most certainly want to avoid. Thus the threat of hell is held over our heads to influence our behaviour. To scare us into doing what God - the one who decides whether or not we go to hell - wants us to do.

Thus, hell is punishment.

But the really silly part is that I didn't even need to bother to show you the logical fallacy of your position, given that the bible explicitly calls hell eternal punishment.


What you are describing is revenge. A punishment is ment to correct. You cant give a correction for eternity.

Quote:
horseatingweeds wrote:
This is of cores simply a conclusion that I have drawn.

Based on...? I assume you have some biblical evidence from your "studies" to back up your conclusion. Right? I mean, it's not just wishful thinking that has nothing to do with what's actually written in the bible, right?


Based on.... as I wrote earlier, HOW hell is described in the bibble with emphasis on being "cast out" "removed from God's presence".

Quote:
horseatingweeds wrote:
However, what if your notion is true, and God made us, he made a heaven, and made a hell. Then he implemented a little contest to see who could find there way to the good spot. And, oh-yay, when someone makes him made he sends them to hell too.


Quote:
WELL, HE IS GOD!!!! It is his prerogative. Will you rebel against him saying, I think this is wrong, I know better! I’m voting for Satan in the next election.

*blink* Are you freaking kidding me?!?! Of course I would rebel!!! I would be morally bound to rebel! I could not live with myself for a minute - let alone an eternity - if God were actually like that and I did nothing about it. I would use every milligram of my power and abilities to find God and stop him. I couldn't do anything else in good conscience. If I succeed, then I would have saved potentially millions of people from an eternity of torment. And if I fail, I burn. But I would rather burn for an eternity knowing that I tried to stop that kind of suffering than live in heaven for an instant knowing that I did nothing about it.

Would you be ok living with yourself in heaven, knowing that God was sentencing people to eternal torment just because they displeased him? Could you turn your back on their suffering? Could you possibly accept God as your leader, trust his word, and just do as he tells you to do knowing that he was arbitrarily sending millions to endless torture?

I find those questions particularly relevant here, actually, but I won't say why just yet. Astute readers should see where this is heading.


The trouble with your ferver is that God is not an elected figure. He CREATED you. Good = God's will, It is not an invention by people based on their own imediate desiers.

You seem to be very unwilling to step out of your own frame of thought. You seem convinced that our Lord is producing a reality TV show that sends inocents to some place where they are actively tourchered for Gods fancy.

Maybe YOU should run for god. Satan has 1/3 of the angels, the fallen ones that where cast out with him when he chalanged God. Perhaps you could convince some from both sides that you have a superior idea of what GOOD is.

Anyway, my main point that you seem to be stumbling over is that hell is simmply being outside of God's presence, that is why it hurts, and you end up there because that is the path you chose on earth, the path of ovoiding his presence. If you turn your back on him he does the same.

Would you rather he remove your free will? He gave it to you, you know. So you could come up with these morals you would be bound by to rebel against him. I fear you may be too close to the trees Indi.
a_dubDesign
attempt to get back on Nazi topic. An incredibly smart friend of mine did some studying on a few Nazis on wikipedia, you can check it out here.

I post this to remind people that Nazi is a political party, and not all people who carried the name Nazi were all about slaughtering people.
elincinerador
Indi wrote:
Hitler was a Christian - a Roman Catholic to be exact. His schtick was "Positive Christianity", which is "Christianity with all the negative influences (the Jews) removed".


i think you should not be speaking of things that you don't know. Hitler was NOT a catholic. had you ever heard about the german faith movement?? well, it was NOT a catholic movement at all.. in fact, maybe you don't know that concentration camps were not just for jews (yes, the great majority were jews) but some catholic priests were also sent there... i really don't care if you're not a christian, just don't invent stuff ok?

Indi wrote:
Nevertheless, Hitler was indeed a Christian, and thus, by the doctrine of Christianity, his sins are forgiven and he is going to heaven.

The others that I listed are going to hell.

Yay just and fair God.


you don't know nothing about christianity and its doctrine, really.... you're not going to hell just because you're not a christian, and neither you go to heaven because you're a christian... christians can go to hell as well as non christians to heaven... you really have to revise that concept...

and another last thing:
Indi wrote:
"Christianity with all the negative influences (the Jews) removed"

we come from the jews. they can NEVER be a negative influence.

so please, if you want to speak about catholicism or christianism in general, learn about them before.[/code]
Indi
horseatingweeds wrote:
What you are describing is revenge. A punishment is ment to correct. You cant give a correction for eternity.

Oh yeah? Then pray tell, how does capital punishment "correct"? Hm?

Anyway, what I described is most certainly not revenge. Punishment is applying negative consequences on someone as a response to unwanted behaviour. Let's see if hell fits that description. Can it be described as negative consequences? Yes. Is it applied by someone? Yes, God causes people to be sent to hell by not allowing them into heaven (using your description). Assuming God is capable of allowing everyone into heaven (and if he really is all-powerful, of course he is), then everyone he denies entry he is condemning to hell. Is it applied in response to unwanted behaviour? Yes, it is applied by God in response to not doing what God wants you to do. Thus, hell is punishment.

You seem to have your own little definitions for words like "punishment" that are not at all related to their actual English definitions. "Punishment" is not correction, and a punishment certainly isn't intended to correct. At best, the threat of punishment is intended to prevent unwanted behaviour (but then, that applies to hell, too - the threat of hell is what makes not doing what God says bad). Funny enough, the dictionary agrees with me, not you: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=punishment

horseatingweeds wrote:
The trouble with your ferver is that God is not an elected figure. He CREATED you. Good = God's will, It is not an invention by people based on their own imediate desiers.

I don't care what he did to or for me, or who he is. If my mother and father were making people suffer for eternity, I'd stop them, too. It doesn't matter who is doing evil. If evil is being done, then the right thing to do is try to stop it. By my definition, people being forced to suffer torments for eternity is evil. I don't care who is doing it. They should be stopped.

Of course, by your logic, people suffering for eternity in hell is "good", because that's God's will. And before you argue: yes, it is God's will. Because he has the power to stop it - he has the power to do anything - and he lets it happen. So, is that what you believe? People suffering for eternity in hell is good?

horseatingweeds wrote:
Maybe YOU should run for god. Satan has 1/3 of the angels, the fallen ones that where cast out with him when he chalanged God. Perhaps you could convince some from both sides that you have a superior idea of what GOOD is.

I have no interest in taking over God's position. Just in stopping his crimes. I also never claimed my idea of what good is is superior to anyone's. But don't you agree that allowing someone to suffer eternal torment when you have the power to save them is evil?

horseatingweeds wrote:
Anyway, my main point that you seem to be stumbling over is that hell is simmply being outside of God's presence, that is why it hurts, and you end up there because that is the path you chose on earth, the path of ovoiding his presence. If you turn your back on him he does the same.

So... you're just ignoring the verses about the eternal flames, hm?

Regardless, it's suffering and God can prevent it. Anyone who is aware of suffering and able to prevent it, but chooses not to do so, is at best not a perfectly good person.

But it's not just that God doesn't prevent the suffering - he is the one who decides who suffers. He has the capability to choose that no-one suffers, but he doesn't. He sends some to suffer for no other reason than that he feels they deserve it. Anyone who makes people suffer when they don't have to is evil.

horseatingweeds wrote:
Would you rather he remove your free will? He gave it to you, you know. So you could come up with these morals you would be bound by to rebel against him. I fear you may be too close to the trees Indi.

*blink* Too close to the trees?

Why are you so offended that I'm using the free will and the ability to reason that was given to me? So far you haven't really answered any of the problems I've outlined - you've just implied that I want to challenge God for his position because I recognize that he's doing evil. So... what, if I was aware that my mayor was doing criminal acts and turned her and testified against her in court, it must mean that I want to be mayor? Is that the way you work? Anytime you see someone doing something wrong and do something to stop them, you're really just out for their job?

And they say I have no moral framework. -_-

a_dubDesign wrote:
I post this to remind people that Nazi is a political party, and not all people who carried the name Nazi were all about slaughtering people.

Specifically the "National Socialist" political party (which, if you take "National Socialism" in German, you can shrink to "Nazi" - if they had been in an English speaking country, they'd be called "Natsos" I guess >_<). Technically, the real Nazis didn't call themselves Nazis, because it was kind of an insult, like calling Communists "Commies".

a_dubDesign is right that not all Nazis were about killing, but also, you may not recognize "Nazism" by the word "Nazi", 卐 or plans to elevate the "master race" and kill all Jews. The social philosophies of National Socialism can appear in many different forms.

The general idea is that some people are "more equal" than others. According to Hitler's hierarchy, "Aryans" (he misused the word) were at the top, and Jews and Gypsies, among others, at the bottom - but the same philosophy can be applied to other hierarchies. The problems that arise in society arise because the "less equal" people are destabilizing the system, because they are more susceptible to baser urges, ignorance and other such failings.

Thus, democracy is actually problematic - it's better for the superior people to just sieze control by virtue of their own superiority, so as to prevent the undesirables from screwing up the system. So superior people should exercise their superiority and create a nation (or take over an existing one - same thing, really), and then kick out those who aren't up to the standards of that nation so that they can go form their own nations. If everyone in the world were a Nazi, then nations would be made up of "races" - the concept of "race" and "nation" would be interchangeable - and the dominant nations would be the ones made up of the most superior races. Nations made up of a mixture of races are doomed to failure, because a house divided cannot stand (to warp some famous words into context).

There are actually a lot of pseudo-Nazi governments and political parties in the world that don't actually bear the name or the 卐, and generally aren't quite as extremist. In general, things to watch out for include suggestions that any one race, religion, creed or people is superior to others (technically, true Nazism segregates by race alone, but the general idea can be applied to any kind of segregation without any real tweaking) - but also, more insidious, that any group is inferior. I know it sounds like the same thing, but in practice it's not. Most people won't miss the Nazi-esque flavour if you say "whites are superior", but you can get away with saying "Islam is the cause of problems in our country" without people picking up the implication. Also, watch out for elevating the "nation" over the rights of the people, or "might makes right" philosophies.

elincinerador wrote:
i think you should not be speaking of things that you don't know. Hitler was NOT a catholic. had you ever heard about the german faith movement?? well, it was NOT a catholic movement at all.. in fact, maybe you don't know that concentration camps were not just for jews (yes, the great majority were jews) but some catholic priests were also sent there... i really don't care if you're not a christian, just don't invent stuff ok?

I do know what I'm talking about, thank you. Hitler was a Roman Catholic by upbringing, but he was at odds with the Vatican during his rise to power. For this reason, he formed the Reich Church - which wasn't really a church but a group of churches who were all supposed to conform to certain national standards of "churchness" and remove Jewish influences and symbolism from Christianity, but the idea was abandoned very early on. Is that what you mean by the "German faith movement"? Hitler was certainly never a member of the Reich Church. He tried to found it, and then lost interest. That's about it.

Whether or not you can say he died a Catholic is surely debatable, but he was surely raised one. And whether or not he died a Catholic, according to the evidence he probably died a Christian.

You're also being misleading. Yes, millions of Catholics were killed in the concentration camps... but not for being Catholic. They were killed for being Polish, or various other things, like harbouring Jews.

elincinerador wrote:
you don't know nothing about christianity and its doctrine, really.... you're not going to hell just because you're not a christian, and neither you go to heaven because you're a christian... christians can go to hell as well as non christians to heaven... you really have to revise that concept...

I never said that - I said that according to the evidence, Hitler was a devout Christian. So it is reasonable to assume that he knew what he had to do to go to heaven, and that he sincerely believed in hell and was afraid of going there. So with that evidence, the logical conclusion is that Hitler would have asked forgiveness for his sins, and thus, been granted heaven. Thus, Hitler's probably in heaven.

I don't get what you're saying - are you saying that it's impossible for Hitler to be in heaven. Kinda blasphemous for you to be deciding that, isn't it?

elincinerador wrote:
Indi wrote:
"Christianity with all the negative influences (the Jews) removed"

we come from the jews. they can NEVER be a negative influence.

Oh, don't be an idiot. -_- That was obviously Hitler's belief, not mine. See the quotes around it?

Come on. -_-
Tex_Arcana
This thread has been hijacked. It is no longer about Nazi's or racism. It is now about Hitler and whether or not he is in Hell and if Hell is a punishment or not.

Now fly this thread it Cuba (wait, that's a bit dated) to Lebenon (does anyone really hijack planes to Lebenon or is that just Chuck Norris movies?). Just take it anywhere as long as there aren't any Nazis around.
Soulfire
@Indi
Quote:
Only if he was a practicing Christian, and truly sorry for his sins. Being sorry for your sins is called repenting, and if he did, then yes, he would get to share in the glory of God

That's a quote from my above post. Did I imply or say that he wasn't going to heaven? Not at all, quite the opposite. Did I say I hate Hitler? No. I hate his crimes, and I disagree with his beliefs.

Where did I say that Hitler was unfit for Heaven? Nowhere! So you can't call me hypocritical.
Shin
mantasx wrote:
I thought that racism was pretty much over in U.S, but I was wrong.


You are definitely wrong I am afraid, and it's not just in the US but in every country, sadly. Sad
Blaster
racism isn't over in the united states. The fact is it will never be over. There will always be somone out there that is raciest. Weather it be because you dont' have blue eyes and bright blond hair then you are not excepted.

I belive Hitler is in heaven. He may have done bad but he did a lot of good for Germany too. Like with George Bush. Do you think he is going to hell? He is killing many people. Most likely he will be sent to heaven. So I really think god excpeted him into heaven. Belive it or not he was a decent guy. He did a lot in the beginingg to help out Germany.

So really Hitler did nothing but started a way. The United States is like this too. If you didn't notice we are in Arab countries. So if you are saying was anti Jewish then George Bush must be anti Arab. So really he was at war. Rhat is all he was doing was starting a war. Wars have been started all over the years. So if you are saying if you start a war that you are going to hell. Then a lot of people have gone to hell because of this.

So nothing was really charged against him. There for he probley went to heavn. The only question with that is that he did commit sucide. As forces where coming apon him he commited sucide. If you want to read more on that read here
nam_siddharth
Indi wrote:
There is only one unforgivable sin, and suicide ain't it.


What is that unforgivable sin?
lib
The unforgivable sin is to be blasphemous against the Holy Spirit.
Quote:
LUKE 12:10, "And everyone that says a word against the Son of Man, that will be forgiven; But he that blasphemes against The Holy Spirit will not be forgiven

MARK 3:29, "Whoever blasphemes against The Holy Spirit will never have forgiveness, but is guilty of everlasting sin."

MATTHEW 12: 31-32 "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. [u]And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to come".


Basically, the Holy Spirit is what (tries to) bring God's message into your heart, which you can choose to accept or reject. If you reject any of the ten commandments, or die without accepting (the Christian) God as the sole God, the most powerful, the only one thing that matters, and the only one you should give importance to in your life (and death), you're commiting the unforgivable sin.

I've used the term "The Christian God" because the first 2 commandments are:

Quote:
1--"You shall have no other gods before me."
2--"You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them. "

The significant one is the second one.

@Indi, I can understand your point of view throughout this thread... I'm surprised I didn't notice this thread before. I don't like the idea of eternal damnation just because my free will gives me the choice to choose another God or another way of living. I believe strongly in karma and re-incarnation, but my belief is not in complete conformity with any one particular religion or ideology... it's a mixture of many (I've hoped that these are the good points and ideals of most religions).
a_dubDesign
lib wrote:

Quote:
LUKE 12:10, "And everyone that says a word against the Son of Man, that will be forgiven; But he that blasphemes against The Holy Spirit will not be forgiven

MARK 3:29, "Whoever blasphemes against The Holy Spirit will never have forgiveness, but is guilty of everlasting sin."

MATTHEW 12: 31-32 "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. [u]And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to come".


Basically, the Holy Spirit is what (tries to) bring God's message into your heart, which you can choose to accept or reject. If you reject any of the ten commandments, or die without accepting (the Christian) God as the sole God, the most powerful, the only one thing that matters, and the only one you should give importance to in your life (and death), you're commiting the unforgivable sin.

Hey Indi, I'm wondering how you came to that explanation of blasphemy against the spirit.
lib
a_dubDesign wrote:
lib wrote:

Quote:
LUKE 12:10, "And everyone that says a word against the Son of Man, that will be forgiven; But he that blasphemes against The Holy Spirit will not be forgiven

MARK 3:29, "Whoever blasphemes against The Holy Spirit will never have forgiveness, but is guilty of everlasting sin."

MATTHEW 12: 31-32 "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. [u]And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to come".


Basically, the Holy Spirit is what (tries to) bring God's message into your heart, which you can choose to accept or reject. If you reject any of the ten commandments, or die without accepting (the Christian) God as the sole God, the most powerful, the only one thing that matters, and the only one you should give importance to in your life (and death), you're commiting the unforgivable sin.

Hey Indi, I'm wondering how you came to that explanation of blasphemy against the spirit.

Actually, that's by me.
I read this article, and posted my interpretation of it.
I could be wrong however, since admittedly, it was a somewhat hastily written post. I'd like your input on this though... and perhaps a better explanation of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?
a_dubDesign
lib wrote:
Actually, that's by me.
I read this article, and posted my interpretation of it.
I could be wrong however, since admittedly, it was a somewhat hastily written post. I'd like your input on this though... and perhaps a better explanation of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit?

I haven't looked into it to much, and I don't have much time right now to read through the link you posted, I'll be checking it out after the pistons game tonight.

I found two refrences to it in the International Standard Bible Encylopedia. One here under the heading of blasphemy, its point #3. And another mention is here, its a ways down, just do a find "blasphemy". I've just started checking this out and really have no clue where I stand on this issue.
Indi
Soulfire wrote:
@Indi
Quote:
Only if he was a practicing Christian, and truly sorry for his sins. Being sorry for your sins is called repenting, and if he did, then yes, he would get to share in the glory of God

That's a quote from my above post. Did I imply or say that he wasn't going to heaven? Not at all, quite the opposite. Did I say I hate Hitler? No. I hate his crimes, and I disagree with his beliefs.

Where did I say that Hitler was unfit for Heaven? Nowhere! So you can't call me hypocritical.

I wasn't calling you or anyone hypocritical, I called the idea that some people are unwelcome in heaven hypocritical. The almost universal response to "Hitler is going to heaven" is some form of "he doesn't deserve it" or simply "impossible/unlikely/doubtful", when, according to my understanding of Christianity, it should be "good!" or "I hope so". Am I wrong?

nam_siddharth wrote:
What is that unforgivable sin?

lib is right, the unforgivable sin is to blaspheme against God, but I've never heard blasphemy described as he described it. As I understand it, to blaspheme against God is to speak against him, to insult him, ridicule him or just generally talk shit about him.
a_dubDesign
Indi wrote:
lib is right, the unforgivable sin is to blaspheme against God, but I've never heard blasphemy described as he described it. As I understand it, to blaspheme against God is to speak against him, to insult him, ridicule him or just generally talk **** about him.

technically its the holy spirit. As I understand it, its related to the pharisees saying works of the holy spirit (miracles and whatnot) were actually works of the devil.
tidruG
a_dubDesign wrote:
Indi wrote:
lib is right, the unforgivable sin is to blaspheme against God, but I've never heard blasphemy described as he described it. As I understand it, to blaspheme against God is to speak against him, to insult him, ridicule him or just generally talk **** about him.

technically its the holy spirit. As I understand it, its related to the pharisees saying works of the holy spirit (miracles and whatnot) were actually works of the devil.

From the links you posted, even I understood it to mean the same thing. So how does this apply to us now, in this age?
Whong
tidruG wrote:
a_dubDesign wrote:
Indi wrote:
lib is right, the unforgivable sin is to blaspheme against God, but I've never heard blasphemy described as he described it. As I understand it, to blaspheme against God is to speak against him, to insult him, ridicule him or just generally talk **** about him.

technically its the holy spirit. As I understand it, its related to the pharisees saying works of the holy spirit (miracles and whatnot) were actually works of the devil.

From the links you posted, even I understood it to mean the same thing. So how does this apply to us now, in this age?


Yes thats true, the Bible states that blaspheme against the Holy Spirit is unfogivable! It does apply to us in this age, just as anything else stated in the Bible! Idea

Have a blessed day! Wink
Mannix
If indeed Hitler was a christian, I guess we know where he's going, but I find this highly unlikely. The official view of the nazi party of christianity was basically the whorship of an illegitimite son of an adulteress.
To support my claims:
Quote:
"Christianity is the prototype of Bolshevism: the mobilisation by the Jew of the masses of slaves with the object of undermining society." -Hitler

Quote:
"The German people, especially the youth, have learned once again to value people racially-they have once again turned away from Christian theories, from Christian teaching which has ruled Germany for more than a thousand years and caused the racial decay of the German Volk, and almost its racial death. -Himmler"

Quote:
"The Führer is deeply religious, though completely anti-Christian; he views Christianity as a symptom of decay. Rightly so. It is a branch of the Jewish race." -Joseph Goebbels
Whong
I'm quite certain that Hitler is burning in hell right now!

Didn't he comit suicide, I remember hearing so in school!

God only knows where Adolf Hitler is right now! Idea
Scorpio
Whong wrote:
I'm quite certain that Hitler is burning in hell right now!


Then you say

Quote:
God only knows where Adolf Hitler is right now!


So do you or do you not know where he is?
Laughing
a_dubDesign
Whong wrote:
I'm quite certain that Hitler is burning in hell right now!

Is that from the bible or a failure to love your enemy?
tidruG
Whong wrote:
tidruG wrote:
a_dubDesign wrote:
Indi wrote:
lib is right, the unforgivable sin is to blaspheme against God, but I've never heard blasphemy described as he described it. As I understand it, to blaspheme against God is to speak against him, to insult him, ridicule him or just generally talk **** about him.

technically its the holy spirit. As I understand it, its related to the pharisees saying works of the holy spirit (miracles and whatnot) were actually works of the devil.

From the links you posted, even I understood it to mean the same thing. So how does this apply to us now, in this age?


Yes thats true, the Bible states that blaspheme against the Holy Spirit is unfogivable! It does apply to us in this age, just as anything else stated in the Bible! Idea

Have a blessed day! Wink

O.......K
Let me rephrase that.
Like a_dubDesign posted, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is in relation to the Pharisees claiming that the works of the Holy Spirit are actually the works of the Devil/Satan.

There are no Pharisees as such today. Which means, I am asking... what does blasphemy against the Holy Spirit mean now?
a_dubDesign
tidruG wrote:
Let me rephrase that.
Like a_dubDesign posted, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is in relation to the Pharisees claiming that the works of the Holy Spirit are actually the works of the Devil/Satan.

There are no Pharisees as such today. Which means, I am asking... what does blasphemy against the Holy Spirit mean now?

Although there are no Pharisees, I would venture that it holds true for everyone, as the Pharisees thing was just a refrence to put it in context.
Mannix
Given Hitler's denouciation of the christian faith, I'm pretty sure he's burning in hell right now.
a_dubDesign
Mannix wrote:
Given Hitler's denouciation of the christian faith, I'm pretty sure he's burning in hell right now.

why the hell are we so obssesed about weither hitler is in hell or not? And probably an even better question, why are we sitting around saying hitler is in hell because of the massacre when we sit here talking about how we hate him, when jesus says hating someone is paramount to actually killing them.

The truth of the matter is, we don't know. What I do know for a fact is that if I get to heaven and see Hitler there, I'm going to rejoice because God's redeeming power is so strong that it even covers Hitler.
Mannix
Read my other post, I'm not saying he's in hell for the murder of millions, I'm saying he's there because he was not a christian. If indeed he was a christion and I get to see him in heaven, I don't really care.
tidruG
Mannix wrote:
Read my other post, I'm not saying he's in hell for the murder of millions, I'm saying he's there because he was not a christian. If indeed he was a christion and I get to see him in heaven, I don't really care.


Quote:
"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

--Adolf Hitler,
Mein Kampf (Volume 1, Chapter 2, Years of Study and Suffering in Vienna


Quote:
"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people."

--Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922
(Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)


There are far more links and other references and quotes which provide enough food for thought to entertain the idea that Hitler was a Christian, or at least believed himself to be one.

Some of this research has been compiled here.

Most of the quotes show that Hitler was a firm believer. If such, I do think Indi has a valid point. It is likely that before Hitler shot himself, he could very likely have got down on his knees and asked for forgiveness, and as we know that he did not commit the unforgivable sin, he was probably forgiven as well, and this leads to the conclusion that people who are going to Heaven are likely to bump into Mr. Adolf Hitler there.
Mannix
Though I've seen a few quotes with him denouncing christianity(I'd assume he was speaking against the establistments, not the faith itself), I guess they don't really hold up against a whole book supporting the contrary... Guess I should have read some quotes from Mien Kumpf before posting that... though I wouldn't be too sure that he couldn't have abandoned his faith once he took over Germany, I'll try to find some more quotes from his later years. It's also possible that his book was mearly propaganda designed to help his PR.
Indi
Mannix wrote:
Though I've seen a few quotes with him denouncing christianity(I'd assume he was speaking against the establistments, not the faith itself), I guess they don't really hold up against a whole book supporting the contrary...

Indeed. The one Hitler quote you provided is taken out of context. He's not denouncing Christianity, he's denouncing Jewish manipulation of Christianity. As he saw it, manipulation of and by Christianity was one of the means "the Jews" influenced good people. The solution for this was to remove Jewish influences from Christianity - because (all of what I'm writing here is Hitler's opinion, by the way, not mine -_-) Christianity itself was good. Once the evil Jewish influences were removed, what would be left is all the good stuff about Christianity - which he termed "positive Christianity".

You will find that most of Hitler's comments have this flavour, if you consider the wider context. One of his more famous quotes - from his later years - is something like "there is something unhealthy in Christianity". Often people use this quote as "proof" that Hitler was not a Christian. The fact of the matter is, that quote doesn't contradict his philosophy that Christianity had a problem that had to be removed - the Jewish influences - but was in itself good. You have to keep that in mind when reading Hitler's comments - he did have a problem with Christianity, but he believed the problem was fixable, and that Christianity itself was good. In Hitler's warped philosophy, Jesus was not a Jew, but Paul was (which is true, for what it's worth), and the lies and twisting of Jesus' teachings began there.

The Himmler quote has nothing to do with Hitler.

The Goebbels quote is just bizarre (a religion is a branch of a race?), but then, most of what Goebbels said and did made little sense. Goebbels himself was a Catholic (I think, I'm not sure), but he wanted to leave the church when it started (belatedly) opposing some of Hitler's actions. Hitler ordered Goebbels to stay with the church.

Mannix wrote:
Guess I should have read some quotes from Mien Kumpf before posting that... though I wouldn't be too sure that he couldn't have abandoned his faith once he took over Germany, I'll try to find some more quotes from his later years. It's also possible that his book was mearly propaganda designed to help his PR.

The problem with Hitler quotes from later years is that they become more and more bizarre and self-contradictory. It's hard to figure out exactly what went on in his mind most of the time, starting from around 1942ish. Often in the same day, Hitler would say "A is evil, B is good", then turn around hours later and say the exact opposite - or more often do the exact opposite. Especially towards the end, you could be Hitler's closest buddy one day and a traitor to the nation the next (case in point, Himmler). Possibly it was just stress from fighting the world. Myself, I am always skeptical of interpreting Hitler quotes made after 1939 (when he invaded Poland, setting off WW2). But, your mileage may vary.

As for Mein Kampf, we know why it was written, and, yes, it was about PR, but not in the sense that you are implying. Hitler wrote Mein Kampf while he was in jail. He had just attempted - and failed - to sieze power via a coup. Hitler was marginally popular at this point, but during his trial for high treason, he spoke his beliefs out loud and suddenly found huge support. When he was put in jail, he was already a hero - he had no real motivation to lie to convince anyone of anything. He just had to put his beliefs in writing to solidify them as a manifesto of sorts, because he had already won the people over. That's essentially what Mein Kampf is - it's Hitler expounding his views to (what he thinks is an) already receptive audience.

Personally, I'd say Mein Kampf is about the best insight you can get into Hitler's brain. It's directly from his mouth, and its goal is simply to get his beliefs more air time - not to fool anyone (or at least, there's no real reason to presume that). If you can get a hold of Mein Kampf 2 in English, that might be worth a look, too, but it was never finished. It's really hard - if not functionally impossible - to get a clear view of Hitler's state of mind towards the end (of course, maybe that's because his state of mind wasn't particularly clear).
AftershockVibe
Quote:
As for Mein Kampf, we know why it was written, and, yes, it was about PR, but not in the sense that you are implying. Hitler wrote Mein Kampf while he was in jail. He had just attempted - and failed - to sieze power via a coup. Hitler was marginally popular at this point, but during his trial for high treason, he spoke his beliefs out loud and suddenly found huge support. When he was put in jail, he was already a hero - he had no real motivation to lie to convince anyone of anything. He just had to put his beliefs in writing to solidify them as a manifesto of sorts, because he had already won the people over. That's essentially what Mein Kampf is - it's Hitler expounding his views to (what he thinks is an) already receptive audience.


Mein Kampf was a written book it therefore had a specific audience in mind. I don't disagree that it may be one of the best sources out there since his private conversations were unlikely to be recorded first hand, however you should be careful not to assume that Mein Kampf is an exact copy of what Hitler thought. If anything this is what Hitler wanted people to think he thought.
Indi
AftershockVibe wrote:
Mein Kampf was a written book it therefore had a specific audience in mind. I don't disagree that it may be one of the best sources out there since his private conversations were unlikely to be recorded first hand, however you should be careful not to assume that Mein Kampf is an exact copy of what Hitler thought. If anything this is what Hitler wanted people to think he thought.

I didn't say it was exactly what he thought. I said it was probably the closest we can get. We already know that it wasn't exactly what he thought because he felt the need to write a follow-up. Nevertheless, there is no real reason to believe that Hitler felt compelled to lie or hide his beliefs, since the specifc audience he was writing to was a sympathetic audience that already largely considered him a hero. All the while that he was dictating Mein Kampf, he was receiving fan mail from people who had already heard him speak his view at his trial and agreed with him.

If you want to assume that Hitler was being deceptive, that's fine, but you'd be doing it without any evidence that that was the case, and without any obvious rational motivation of Hitler to do so. Given that everything in Mein Kampf is in accord with Hitler's actions and speeches before, during and after its writing, it seems to me to be a stretch to assume that it's not largely true. You would be assuming that Hitler managed to convincingly lie to an entire nation for 20 years, maintain behaviour and a public (and, according to most accounts, private) persona that matched that lie flawlessly for all that time, and create policies and make decisions that without the philosophies expounded in that book have no rational basis and were ultimately destructive - basically claiming that Hitler was completely batshit crazy yet at the same time not completely batshit crazy but pretending to be completely batshit crazy with absolutely perfect acting that stood up to two decades of close scrutiny.

Yeah, personally, I think I'm gonna go with the theory that Mein Kampf is what Hitler believed. But, you know, you go with what works for you.
AftershockVibe
Dude, I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was merely elaborating on your point. I know you're aware that this might be controversial but don't write me off as a direct opponent!

I didn't say that he was lying, I was merely stating that because he was performing (and Hitler, like all "good" politicians, was a performer) for a given audience his words would reflect that. What he wrote would be what he wanted the world to see him as, he wouldn't include all his little worries, his doubts etc that he thought would make him look weak. Or at least, not unless it would gain him more support by doing so.
Indi
AftershockVibe wrote:
Dude, I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was merely elaborating on your point. I know you're aware that this might be controversial but don't write me off as a direct opponent!

I didn't say that he was lying, I was merely stating that because he was performing (and Hitler, like all "good" politicians, was a performer) for a given audience his words would reflect that. What he wrote would be what he wanted the world to see him as, he wouldn't include all his little worries, his doubts etc that he thought would make him look weak. Or at least, not unless it would gain him more support by doing so.

I didn't think you were disagreeing, I was just pointing out that the alternative you are describing doesn't stand up to the evidence. As I said, if Hitler really was "performing" while he was drafting Mein Kampf, then it was a performance he maintained almost perfectly for 20-odd years, all the while under close scrutiny - not to mention that such a performance would imply that he had a hidden rational motive for performing, which doesn't make much sense given the irrational way he acted when making critical decisions.

Or to put it another way, assume that Hitler didn't believe some or all of what is in Mein Kampf, and that he drafted it carefully to convince people to follow him. By that theory, Hitler is a cunning and clever person, and obviously fairly rational in order to detect what the people needed to hear and give it to them so perfectly in order to achieve his own goals. It worked (somewhat), so now that Hitler had achieved the goal of fooling the people into following him, what did he do? He did exactly what he said he was going to do in Mein Kampf, right to the end. Now, if Mein Kampf was a lie just to get him power, why would he follow it so well after he got that power, even though it was irrational and eventually self-defeating? That would imply that he wasn't particularly clever or rational - which contradicts the earlier assumption.

See? Doesn't make sense. The logical conclusion is that he did believe what he wrote in Mein Kampf.

Further, as I explained, Mein Kampf wasn't written for the purpose of converting people. Hitler wasn't trying to convince with Mein Kampf, he was trying to explain. He had already convinced. He believed his theories (see the bit above), and he had spoken them aloud, and they had been accepted. So, now all he had to do is write a manifesto. That's essentially what Mein Kampf is. He's not trying to fool anyone. He's just pandering to his audience, preaching to the choir, and proseletysing to the already-converted.
AftershockVibe
*bangs head off table*

I didn't say he didn't believe what he wrote in Mein Kampf. I'm saying it's not the be all and end all of Hitler's beliefs.
Indi
AftershockVibe wrote:
*bangs head off table*

I didn't say he didn't believe what he wrote in Mein Kampf. I'm saying it's not the be all and end all of Hitler's beliefs.

Good grief, will you calm down. -_-

I didn't say that it was the "be all and end all of Hitler's beliefs" - in fact, I said it wasn't. I said that it was the best we have, and all evidence suggests that it's pretty damned good. That's it.

Of course you should take what it says with a grain of salt, but that's true for everything. Nevertheless, if you want to completely write off something that Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf - such as the descriptions of his religious beliefs - you're going to need some serious evidence to back that decision up. Unless someone has sufficient evidence to do that, the information in Mein Kampf should be assumed to be pretty accurate.

There are two things to consider when weighing the validity of Mein Kampf.
1.) Did Hitler believe what he was writing was true?
2.) Was it actually in accordance with his beliefs?

The reason you have to consider both is because it is possible for Hitler to sincerely believe he was being honest, but to be completely out of whack with his actual beliefs. Certainly it's not a stretch to argue that Hitler was a whack job and out of touch with reality, so it's possible that he could have been out of touch with his own mind. He may have thought he was fooling everyone but accidently let his real beliefs slip, or more likely thought he was being honest but misrepresented his beliefs.

So to consider the first point, we look at when and how Hitler wrote Mein Kampf, the audience he intended it for, and what he hoped to accomplish with it. When we do that, we note that Hitler was writing to a receptive audience that had already heard him state his beliefs when he thought he had nothing to lose (so he wasn't likely lying then). Thus, it's unlikely Hitler was being deliberately dishonest in Mein Kampf.

To consider the second point, we look at Hitler's actions, before, during and after Mein Kampf, and note any contradictions. Sure, there are a few scattered instances of Hitler's actions contradicting statements or beliefs in Mein Kampf, but by and large over 20 years of close scrutiny he seems to have followed the text to the letter. Thus, it's unlikely that Mein Kampf does not represent Hitler's views.

That's where I'm coming from. Sure, it's possible that Mein Kampf isn't really representative of what Hitler believes, but it's a stretch.
Simulator
I came across this the other day, and I have to say I agree with all of it. Don't know if ye covered this, but it wasn't only Jews that Hitler killed, it was basically anyone who was a threat to society. Anyway heres what I found:

Quote:
20 Tell-tale Beliefs of a Nazi (National Socialists)

1. The first duty of the state is to nourish it's own citizens.

2. National Socialists demand an end to illegal immigration and a cap on non-ethnic
minorities entering the nation.

3. All citizens of the nation shall enjoy equal rights and duties!

4. A non-citizen may live in the nation as a guest.

5. The first duty of the citizen is to work for the common good,
regardless of his "class" or station.

6. National Socialists demand abolition of monopoly ownership of public necessities:
i.e. electricity and gas.

7. National Socialists demand decent housing at decent prices.

8. National Soicalists demand abolition of profit on unearned income.

9. National Socialists demand abolition of "foreign" ownership of lands and means of
production in our nation that allows monopolistic speculation of life
necessities.

10. National Socialists demand abolition of all taxes on items of life's necessities:
food, clothing, and shelter.

11. National Socialists demand reconstruction of Social Security into a voluntary
system and adequately provide for the security of our retired citizens.

12. National Socialist demand abolition of the current Welfare System that allows
parasites to feed at the public though without recompense to the nation.

13. National Socialists demand restoration to the American working man, the right to
proper ownership of farms, homes, and businesses without fear of
bandit taxation or dispossession.

14. National Socialists demand an end to war profits and nationalization of profits of all
those who profit by distress, maiming, and death of the Nation's youth
in defense of their nation.

15. National Socialists demand an end to edict laws the interference of the so called
high courts and return to Anglo-Saxon law.

16. National Socialists demand complete reformation of the National School System
that is turning our children into complete illiterates.

17. The State must provide for the improvement of the public health by
protecting mothers and children, ending the rudiments of child abuse,
labor and drug addiction and support health education for the young.

18. National Socialists demand formation of a true national service for defense of the
nation without respect to class or station.

19. National Socialists demand an end to the monopolies in the Media and it's
subversive hypocrisy. We demand a national press which represents
the nation, not just special interests.

20. National Socialists demand national self determination for all races and peoples.

If these are your beliefs, strap on a swastika, you're a NAZI!
Rebzie
Indi wrote:
Whong wrote:
I hate Nazis and Hitler, he did so much of wicked and evil to God's nation the Jews! Well atleast he is paying his price now! Laughing Exclamation

Yes, he's paying the same price as Abraham Lincoln, Thomas Edison, Bertrand Russell, Linus Pauling, Carl Sagan, Richard Feynman, Isaac Asimov, Kurt Vonnegut Jr., Robert Heinlein, Tolstoy, Gene Roddenberry, Mark Twain, Galileo Galilei, John Lennon and Thomas Jefferson, among others. Yay merciful God.

Oh wait, hang on.

Hitler was a Christian - a Roman Catholic to be exact. His schtick was "Positive Christianity", which is "Christianity with all the negative influences (the Jews) removed".

Nevertheless, Hitler was indeed a Christian, and thus, by the doctrine of Christianity, his sins are forgiven and he is going to heaven.

The others that I listed are going to hell.

Yay just and fair God.

Ah yes but he also killed himself in the end which would send him to hell.
tidruG
Rebzie wrote:
Indi wrote:
Whong wrote:
I hate Nazis and Hitler, he did so much of wicked and evil to God's nation the Jews! Well atleast he is paying his price now! Laughing Exclamation

Yes, he's paying the same price as Abraham Lincoln, Thomas Edison, Bertrand Russell, Linus Pauling, Carl Sagan, Richard Feynman, Isaac Asimov, Kurt Vonnegut Jr., Robert Heinlein, Tolstoy, Gene Roddenberry, Mark Twain, Galileo Galilei, John Lennon and Thomas Jefferson, among others. Yay merciful God.

Oh wait, hang on.

Hitler was a Christian - a Roman Catholic to be exact. His schtick was "Positive Christianity", which is "Christianity with all the negative influences (the Jews) removed".

Nevertheless, Hitler was indeed a Christian, and thus, by the doctrine of Christianity, his sins are forgiven and he is going to heaven.

The others that I listed are going to hell.

Yay just and fair God.

Ah yes but he also killed himself in the end which would send him to hell.

What if he begged God for forgiveness just before committing suicide? I mean, as already discussed in this thread, there is only 1 unforgivable sin... and that is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. As long as Hitler wasn't blasphemous against the Holy Spirit (which we know he was not), he could have easily got forgiveness for any other sin.
a_dubDesign
Rebzie wrote:
Ah yes but he also killed himself in the end which would send him to hell.

sorry if I burst anyones bubble, but saying suicide equals an automatic ticket to hell isn't biblical.
Whong
a_dubDesign wrote:
Rebzie wrote:
Ah yes but he also killed himself in the end which would send him to hell.

sorry if I burst anyones bubble, but saying suicide equals an automatic ticket to hell isn't biblical.


But you can't ask for forgivness for suicide, because you can only be forgiven after you've done it and once you've done it you're dead!

I'm maeby a bit narrow minded too, but I strongly believe that comitting suicide is an automatic ticket to hell!
Rebzie
and it was a cowardly act he killed himself rather than being captured and punished for his crimes.
a_dubDesign
Whong wrote:
But you can't ask for forgivness for suicide, because you can only be forgiven after you've done it and once you've done it you're dead!

Do you remember the story about the paralytic who got lower through the roof by his friends? He didn't ask for his sins to be forgiven, Jesus just did it. Or the sinful woman who cleaned Jesus's feet with her tears, she didn't ask for her sins to be forgiven either.

Our forgivness doesn't have to do with our asking for it.

And since I'm sure your response will have mention of the Lord's prayer, "forgive us our sins as we forgive those that sin against us", I'll address that real quick by pointing you to the end of the lords prayer in matthew 6:14&15
Indi
Whong wrote:
But you can't ask for forgivness for suicide, because you can only be forgiven after you've done it and once you've done it you're dead!

That's not entirely true. It's quite easy to take a pill, then beg forgiveness while the pill is taking effect.

Whong wrote:
I'm maeby a bit narrow minded too, but I strongly believe that comitting suicide is an automatic ticket to hell!

*shrug* That's fine, but as a_dubDesign pointed out, your belief has nothing to do with what the bible says.

Often people point out that the bible does say that your body and spirit are God's property (usually by quoting 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 out of context), and so by destroying it you're destroying God's property. But that makes no sense, because everything is God's property - every time you mow the lawn you're destroying thousands of God's creations. Then they allude to dozens of verses where Jesus and/or God says "choose life" or "my path is life" or various other formulations on the theme and argue that those mean that suicide is frowned on - but that's a stretch at best, since by far most of those verses are talking about "choose eternal life in heaven instead death by not serving God", not actual physical life.

Rebzie wrote:
and it was a cowardly act he killed himself rather than being captured and punished for his crimes.

And now cowardice is an automatic ticket to hell? Evading earthly punishment is an automatic ticket to hell?

Hm. Didn't Moses do that...?
a_dubDesign
Indi wrote:
And now cowardice is an automatic ticket to hell? Evading earthly punishment is an automatic ticket to hell?

Hm. Didn't Moses do that...?

Oh... BURN!!!! (sorry I couldn't resist the cheesey pun)
Whong
a_dubDesign wrote:
Indi wrote:
And now cowardice is an automatic ticket to hell? Evading earthly punishment is an automatic ticket to hell?

Hm. Didn't Moses do that...?

Oh... BURN!!!! (sorry I couldn't resist the cheesey pun)


Moses didn't do that, he died a natural death! The devil came to take Moses' body, but an angel of the Lord rebuked the devil and took the body of Moses to heaven! Wink Idea
Rebzie
I think you have to actually mean that you repent for your sin just saying something doesn't mean it's actually true. If you say you're a chistian but don't actually go to church of belive in god at all than your not a christian. you can't ask to be forgiven a sin then commit it. It's like i don't think KKK members are good chistians and get a one way ticket to heaven when they die. If you think you can't do anything you like and say im sorry at the end expect no consequences. It's like i've read about a guy who have murdered someone at they don't admit it and say where they burried the body till they're dying. He wasn't sorry for killing the person, he wasn't concerned about the family of the person wanting to bury the body properly they only confessed it out of fear of going to hell.
Rebzie
It doesn't work if you repent for what you'r not sorry for. Also it's highly unlikely that Hitler would have been sorry because he belived himself to be right.
Whong wrote:
a_dubDesign wrote:
Indi wrote:
And now cowardice is an automatic ticket to hell? Evading earthly punishment is an automatic ticket to hell?

Hm. Didn't Moses do that...?

Oh... BURN!!!! (sorry I couldn't resist the cheesey pun)


Moses didn't do that, he died a natural death! The devil came to take Moses' body, but an angel of the Lord rebuked the devil and took the body of Moses to heaven! Wink Idea
Rebzie
Hitler may have announced himself to be a christian publically He most likely did this to gain more supporters. but it doesn't mean he actually was one. 1930s Germany was a nominally Christian country he would have had to have said lots of Christian-sounding stuff to maintain popularity. Mein Kampf illustrates Hitler's views on propaganda:


"To whom should propaganda be addressed? … It must be addressed always and exclusively to the masses… The function of propaganda does not lie in the scientific training of the individual, but in calling the masses' attention to certain facts, processes, necessities, etc., whose significance is thus for the first time placed within their field of vision. The whole art consists in doing this so skilfully that everyone will be convinced that the fact is real, the process necessary, the necessity correct, etc. But since propaganda is not and cannot be the necessity in itself … its effect for the most part must be aimed at the emotions and only to a very limited degree at the so-called intellect… it's soundness is to be measured exclusively by its effective result". (Main Kampf, Vol 1, Ch 6 and Ch 12)

Hitler may in public have claimed to be doing the will of God, but records of his private conversations show otherwise. Many of these were recorded by his secretary and published in a book called Hitler's Table Talk (Adolf Hitler, London, Weidenfeld & Nicholson, 1953). I have lifted the text of these from the soc.religion.christian newsgroup's Hitler FAQ.

Night of 11th-12th July, 1941

"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together....
"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity....
"Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things." (p 6 & 7)


10th October, 1941, midday

"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure." (p 43)


14th October, 1941, midday

"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity....
"Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse....
"...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little....
"Christianity <is> the liar....
"We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State." (p 49-52)


19th October, 1941, night

"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."


21st October, 1941, midday

"Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer....
"The decisive falsification of Jesus' <who he asserts many times was never a Jew> doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation....
"Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the
instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea." (p 63-65)


13th December, 1941, midnight

"Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... <here insults people who believe
transubstantiation>....
"When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease." (p 118-119)


14th December, 1941, midday

"Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself....
"Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism,
under a tinsel of metaphysics." (p 119 & 120)


9th April, 1942, dinner

"There is something very unhealthy about Christianity." (p 339)


27th February, 1942, midday

"It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie."
"Our epoch in the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold <its demise>." (p 278)


This memo was prepared for the Nuremburg Trials. I found the opening paragraph of page 8 especially illuminating:

"1. _THE NATURE OF THE PERSECUTION_
Throughout the period of National Socialist rule (of Germany), religious liberties in Germany were seriously impaired. The various Christian Churches were systematically cut off from effective communication with the people. They were confined as far as possible to the performance of narrowly religous funcitions, and even within this narrow sphere were subjected to as many hinderances as the Nazis dared to impose. These results were accomplished partly by legal and partly by illegal and terroristic means."

Plus look at the swastika he used it was originally a symbol used by buddists and hinduist one would think if he was a devoit christian he would use a christian symbol. If you look at his speeches (and if Hitler was christian he wouldn't repent because he believes himself to be right.)
a_dubDesign
why do we spend so much time trying to figure out whose in and whose out? Isn't that God's job?
Indi
Rebzie wrote:
Hitler may have announced himself to be a christian publically He most likely did this to gain more supporters. but it doesn't mean he actually was one. 1930s Germany was a nominally Christian country he would have had to have said lots of Christian-sounding stuff to maintain popularity. Mein Kampf illustrates Hitler's views on propaganda:


"To whom should propaganda be addressed? … It must be addressed always and exclusively to the masses… The function of propaganda does not lie in the scientific training of the individual, but in calling the masses' attention to certain facts, processes, necessities, etc., whose significance is thus for the first time placed within their field of vision. The whole art consists in doing this so skilfully that everyone will be convinced that the fact is real, the process necessary, the necessity correct, etc. But since propaganda is not and cannot be the necessity in itself … its effect for the most part must be aimed at the emotions and only to a very limited degree at the so-called intellect… it's soundness is to be measured exclusively by its effective result". (Main Kampf, Vol 1, Ch 6 and Ch 12)

Now, let's think logically here... let's pretend for a second that Hiter wasn't a complete bloody idiot.

If Mein Kampf were intended for use as propoganda to dupe the masses... why would he have put that section in there? What possible gains could it have had? Wouldn't it have defeated the purpose of it being something to win the masses over? If Hitler was not really a Christian and was just trying to pull the wool over everyone's eyes, then the above section is illogical and it would have been amazingly stupid of Hitler to put it in there.

Now, consider the alternate hypothesis. If Mein Kampf was not just for the purpose of fooling everyone and was actually what Hitler believed, and if Hitler really was a Christian, then the section above is logical, and logically consistent with Hitler being a Christian.

So... either Hitler was completely daft and random, or he really was Christian.

You believe what you want to believe.

Rebzie wrote:
I have lifted the text of these from the soc.religion.christian newsgroup's Hitler FAQ.

So we're starting here with a neutral source. Nice. -_-

At any rate, I've already said that it's no great secret that Hitler grew more and more erratic and strange in later years. I said that by 1942 he was pretty much completely irrational. Here, I'll even quote myself:
Indi wrote:
The problem with Hitler quotes from later years is that they become more and more bizarre and self-contradictory.... Myself, I am always skeptical of interpreting Hitler quotes made after 1939 (when he invaded Poland, setting off WW2). But, your mileage may vary.

Now, let's take a look at your quotes:
Rebzie wrote:
Night of 11th-12th July, 1941
10th October, 1941, midday
14th October, 1941, midday
19th October, 1941, night
21st October, 1941, midday
13th December, 1941, midnight
14th December, 1941, midday
9th April, 1942, dinner
27th February, 1942, midday

Interesting. Isn't it funny that there are no quotes from when Hitler was completely coherent and sane?

Not to mention that you've misinterpreted several of the quotes. As has already been repeated, over and over again, yes, Hitler had problems with Christianity's Jewish roots, and Hitler had problems with the church. Neither of those things mean that he's not Christian, just not your kind of Christian.

Rebzie wrote:
This memo was prepared for the Nuremburg Trials. I found the opening paragraph of page 8 especially illuminating:

"1. _THE NATURE OF THE PERSECUTION_
Throughout the period of National Socialist rule (of Germany), religious liberties in Germany were seriously impaired. The various Christian Churches were systematically cut off from effective communication with the people. They were confined as far as possible to the performance of narrowly religous funcitions, and even within this narrow sphere were subjected to as many hinderances as the Nazis dared to impose. These results were accomplished partly by legal and partly by illegal and terroristic means."

And again, we already know that Hitler had issues with the churches undermining his authority. But being opposed to a Christian church does not mean that one is not Christian. If it does, explain Martin Luther to me.

Rebzie wrote:
Plus look at the swastika he used it was originally a symbol used by buddists and hinduist one would think if he was a devoit christian he would use a christian symbol. If you look at his speeches (and if Hitler was christian he wouldn't repent because he believes himself to be right.)

Oh, I see. So no good Christian would dare associate with symbols from those dirty other religions, eh? A Christian would only use Christian symbols - for everything! IBM must be evil because their logo isn't Christian! Dear God!!! There are no Christian symbols in the American flag!!! Only stars! It's astrology!!!

Please. -_-

Hitler used the swastika because he thought it was the symbol of the Aryan race that he came from. He thought that because he was told that by German scholars of the day. The scholars were dead wrong. So... Hitler's not a Christian because the people he listened to were stupid? Keep trying.
snjripp
The nazi regime was built in the midst of a cloud of propaganda. It was a specialty of thiers. There are few ways of making something like the holocaust possible. The nazis did a lot of information mixed with misinformation. In addition, denial is a strong competator.

Who Hitler actually was or what he actually believed was focused on gaining power and control. Any religious beliefs were overshadowed by this. As Indi has so combatively stated, Hitler became more and more irratic as time went on. I think this was more due to Hitler no longer listening to advisors or his propaganda artist.

Hitler was first and formost a Hitlerian. I think it is muddled if you try to ask questions about Hitler and Christianity.


Racism is saddly still active. It is tragic that humanity has such a difficult time with tolerance. Even tolerance is a long distance from acceptance.
philipbool
To talk about Hitler's status as a Christian is entirely arbitrary: people can exclude themselves from membership even of the Roman Catholic church by failing to act in accordance with its instructions. Someone who for example willingly breaks the ten commandments immediately incurrs what is called immediate (or high) excommunictaion: They have set themselves outside the church, and they have no share in the body of Christ, and they have no share in the salvation that it entails.
Even if Hitler had in his childhood been a member of the RC Church, it meant nothing if he was prepared to lie, steal, murder, sanction massive death camps, abduct millions of women and children etc...

Basically, the RC Church has this kind of psychopath covered.
Indi
philipbool wrote:
To talk about Hitler's status as a Christian is entirely arbitrary: people can exclude themselves from membership even of the Roman Catholic church by failing to act in accordance with its instructions. Someone who for example willingly breaks the ten commandments immediately incurrs what is called immediate (or high) excommunictaion: They have set themselves outside the church, and they have no share in the body of Christ, and they have no share in the salvation that it entails.
Even if Hitler had in his childhood been a member of the RC Church, it meant nothing if he was prepared to lie, steal, murder, sanction massive death camps, abduct millions of women and children etc...

Basically, the RC Church has this kind of psychopath covered.

Yes, well, so does Jesus, who says that he is the one who decides who is and who is not a Christian based on their relationship with him, not the Roman Catholic church.

Jesus trumps the Pope, doesn't he?

-----------

At any rate, I am truly disappointed that no one has answered my question about hypocrisy on this topic... even while the hypocrisy seems to continue unabated. Can no Christian explain to me why it's ok to not want Hitler in heaven?
snjripp
The sarcasm is a bit thick about Jesus vs. the Pope. I am really struggling with what you are trying to prove or what it is that is really your point Indi... Are you being combative for the sake of discussion or where are you going with this. If you want to mock the faith of vast amounts of people and proove how superior you are to it all, fine. If you are trying to generate dicussion about a relevent topic, we should actually talk about authoritative texts and sources of information. Veiled statements about "it is well documented" or "we know that" don't really cut it when it comes to making generalizations about a powder keg like Hitler.
snjripp
Why is it so important to you to know if Hitler went to hevean or not?

What is the value to philosophy or religion?
tidruG
snjripp wrote:
I am really struggling with what you are trying to prove or what it is that is really your point Indi...


Indi wrote:
Yes, well, so does Jesus, who says that he is the one who decides who is and who is not a Christian based on their relationship with him, not the Roman Catholic church.

I interpret that as meaning that Jesus is the one who decides who is a true Christian and who gets to go to heaven when he comes down on the day of Judgment.
And as we know, God (and Jesus) forgives. As Indi has been saying in this thread so far (And so have others), Hitler would have been a Christian if he followed the teachings of Jesus in his heart without necessarily following any particular church.

snjripp wrote:
Why is it so important to you to know if Hitler went to hevean or not?

What is the value to philosophy or religion?

The reason is simple. I'm interested in this the same reason Indi is:
Quote:
At any rate, I am truly disappointed that no one has answered my question about hypocrisy on this topic... even while the hypocrisy seems to continue unabated. Can no Christian explain to me why it's ok to not want Hitler in heaven?

Christianity is a religion which promotes love and forgiveness. If Christians are unable to forgive Hitler and unwilling to share Heaven with him, then it is selfishness and hypocrisy, isn't it?

Also, religions are sometimes formed on the basis of some very good philosophies. If one particular religion dissatisfies someone, he/she starts building a new philosophy, which may lead to some newer religious ideals and thoughts personally, if not wide-spread.
CompactHaven
Indi wrote:
Whong wrote:
I hate Nazis and Hitler, he did so much of wicked and evil to God's nation the Jews! Well atleast he is paying his price now! Laughing Exclamation

Yes, he's paying the same price as Abraham Lincoln, Thomas Edison, Bertrand Russell, Linus Pauling, Carl Sagan, Richard Feynman, Isaac Asimov, Kurt Vonnegut Jr., Robert Heinlein, Tolstoy, Gene Roddenberry, Mark Twain, Galileo Galilei, John Lennon and Thomas Jefferson, among others. Yay merciful God.

Oh wait, hang on.

Hitler was a Christian - a Roman Catholic to be exact. His schtick was "Positive Christianity", which is "Christianity with all the negative influences (the Jews) removed".

Nevertheless, Hitler was indeed a Christian, and thus, by the doctrine of Christianity, his sins are forgiven and he is going to heaven.

The others that I listed are going to hell.

Yay just and fair God.


Wow. Hitler would NOT be saved just for being a Christian. To be saved you must pray for forgiveness, really feel bad AND change your ways. You also can't kill yourself and go to heaven.

Know your facts or else you will make yourself sound ignorant.

BTW 1.3 Christians died defending Jews and for not being of the Arian race (during the time Hitler ruled) for every Jew that died in the Holocaust.

One more thing. The NAZI party was a socialist party.
robsblawg
Hmmm.....This is an interesting thread. Here's my understanding of Christianity, and some thoughts on why Hitler may or may not be in heaven.

As far as I've been able to understand Christianity, one can only be saved by accepting Jesus Christ as one's lord and savior, accepting that he died for man's sins (including one's own) on the cross, and that no man shall come unto the father but through him. What I take this to mean is that one could live a totally Christian life on the surface (i.e., doing good deeds, caring for one's fellow man, ministering to others), but if one did not accept Christ as the son of God, you won't be going to heaven. This is part of Paul's message in the Gospels.

Now, this brings up some (understandably) prickly questions when the subject of child molesters and mass murderers comes up. My best understanding is that even a child molester or Hitler could gain entrance to heaven, provided that they sincerely renounced their wicked lives, sincerely believed in Christ as their savior, and in their own hearts regretted their abominable conduct. So maybe, if (and I highly doubt this proposition) Hitler actually regretted his horrible deeds and accepted Christ, maybe he gets into heaven. More likely though, he was bitter and broken at the end, and ended his life in lieu of facing what probably would have been horrible torture at the hands of the Soviets. I really doubt he renounced his life or quest to exterminate the Jews.
snjripp
I am seeking a clearer articulation of the question, as it seems to be a moving target.

This question and forum, then, revolves around the salvific stance of Hitler, whether or not Christians can cope with the possibility of Hitler going to heaven, and not about racism?

The hypocricy is that Christians are reluctant to share the "saving power of Christ" with Hitler while they themselves were also in need?
snjripp
CompactHaven wrote:


Wow. Hitler would NOT be saved just for being a Christian. To be saved you must pray for forgiveness, really feel bad AND change your ways. You also can't kill yourself and go to heaven.

Know your facts or else you will make yourself sound ignorant.

BTW 1.3 Christians died defending Jews and for not being of the Arian race (during the time Hitler ruled) for every Jew that died in the Holocaust.

One more thing. The NAZI party was a socialist party.


I have to fundamentally disagree with CompactHaven about the requirements for salvation. While it could be attributed to ignorance to have diversity of opinion with regards to that subject, the Reformation and the schisms that ensued were a great deal about this salvific question and about justification.

So, if I disagree, it is possible that I may understand doctrine in a different way. And besides, facts are a tough topic.

The phrase "I must" is awfully works righteous oriented.

In order to deliniate the question a bit more, let us suppose for a second that Christ's saving work was so profound that, indeed, Christ even atoned for an ungrateful Hitler. To me this is a testament to the grace and love of Christ. While I am uncomfortable with associating with Hitler, I was never intended wo be comfortable with Christ in a broken world.
Indi
snjripp wrote:
The sarcasm is a bit thick about Jesus vs. the Pope. I am really struggling with what you are trying to prove or what it is that is really your point Indi... Are you being combative for the sake of discussion or where are you going with this. If you want to mock the faith of vast amounts of people and proove how superior you are to it all, fine. If you are trying to generate dicussion about a relevent topic, we should actually talk about authoritative texts and sources of information. Veiled statements about "it is well documented" or "we know that" don't really cut it when it comes to making generalizations about a powder keg like Hitler.

If I sound sarcastic it's because the discussion is beginning to border on the absurd... and it's getting repetitive. Before I get into my point, here's a quick rundown on what the contrary responses to "Hitler is going to heaven" have been like so far. Apparently, Hitler is not going to heaven because:
    - He was not a Christian.
      This is in disagreement with everything Hitler wrote and said while he was still coherent and rational enough to be objectively interpreted.
    - He did really bad things.
      This is in disagreement with what the bible says, which mentions only one sin that will not be forgiven.
    - He did not ask forgiveness.
      There is no evidence of that. It's just wishful thinking. One would think that a Christian who knew they were about to die would take the time to ask forgiveness. There's no guarantee that he did, but it's a logical assumption.
    - He was not sincere when he asked forgiveness.
      More wishful thinking.
    - He was not sorry for most of his crimes.
      By what logic? Let's assume he was sane at the very end - one would think he would recognize that he had done bad things, although he believed them to be in the service of good. Why is it impossible to be sorry for sinning while still believing it was necessary? "I regret all the evil I have done, and I hope that you can forgive me for it seeing as I did it for good." Is that so hard to believe? And if he wasn't sane... how could he be held responsible for not being sorry?
    - He killed himself.
      This is not scriptural. There is nothing in the bible that says that killing yourself means you're not going to heaven. In fact, on the contrary, the bible clearly says there is only one unforgivable sin - blasphemy. The idea comes from a misinterpretation of a verse about the body being a temple for God, and, ironically, is most rigourously enforced by the Catholics, the same people who invented self-flagellation. Way to keep that temple sacred.

So, essentially, my position is that while it is impossible for anyone to know who is and who is not going to heaven, the evidence we have strongly suggests that Hitler fits the bill.

Now, as for what my point is, tidruG has summed it up nicely. My original comment on the topic was in response to a position put forward by another poster that is unfortunately common in Christianity - that someone (specifically Hitler in this case) is going to hell, and that's a good thing because they're going to get what they deserve. The question I ask is how can this position be tenable within the boundaries of Christianity? Hell is eternal suffering - how can any Christian be happy that someone would be subjected to eternal suffering? Isn't that essentially high hypocrisy?

To my dismay, the point isn't even being addressed. Rather than what I would consider to be the correct Christian response - that Hitler going to heaven is good news - what I have gotten so far almost universally is dogged insistence that it just can't be the case that Hitler is going to heaven. This response is flawed on two counts - first in that it assumes a human can make that determination and second in that it seems to be hypocritical to seek excuses for why Hitler can't be going to heaven rather than celebrating the idea that he might. As I said, this has been going on and on and on, with no end in sight. Is that not hypocrisy? Won't anyone answer?

And for the record, I am not making veiled statements and I have specified my sources. As a matter of fact, I have pointed out that everything Hitler said and wrote prior to starting WW2 supports the idea that he was a Christian. The only contrary evidence - what little there is - is statements made after he had already manifested other irrational behaviour. In other words, we already know he was going crazy at that time, so why take the statements made then seriously? All the statements made while he was still rational support the idea.

snjripp wrote:
I am seeking a clearer articulation of the question, as it seems to be a moving target.

This question and forum, then, revolves around the salvific stance of Hitler, whether or not Christians can cope with the possibility of Hitler going to heaven, and not about racism?

The hypocricy is that Christians are reluctant to share the "saving power of Christ" with Hitler while they themselves were also in need?

The original point of the thread is vague. If I recall, someone was surprised to discover racism existed in the US. No real discussion topic was raised besides that.

However, in the course of the discussion, I challenged a common Christian position I find hypocritical. Since then the topic seems to have migrated to that and related topics. I don't know what the actual topic of the thread is anymore. Personally, I think discussing whether or not Hitler is going to heaven is silly, because only God can know. But in order to get an answer to the question I want an answer to, I have to deflect arguments that try to sidestep the issue by simply saying it's not an issue because Hitler can't be going to heaven. Frankly, I think the case for that is weak, but of course, no one can know.

My point is shouldn't the Christian answer be "I hope Hitler is going to heaven"? Why would a Christian even be trying to show that he can't be? Isn't that rather blasphemous to attempt to dictate decisions that only God should make? Isn't it rather mean-spirited to hope that someone is going to hell? Isn't just evil to celebrate someone's eternal suffering?

CompactHaven wrote:
Know your facts or else you will make yourself sound ignorant.

Excellent advice.

CompactHaven wrote:
BTW 1.3 Christians died defending Jews and for not being of the Arian race (during the time Hitler ruled) for every Jew that died in the Holocaust.

I'd be curious to see where you get your numbers. The Allies certainly weren't "defending Jews" during WW2. They were fighting Nazis. The Allied response to news of the Holocaust was lukewarm at best. In fact, the US denied tens of thousands of Jews permission to come to America, knowing full well what was in store for them. They also never made any attempt to bomb Auschwitz or the railways that took Jews there. They made one warning to Hitler in 1942, then did nothing about it at all until 1944 when they... made a committee to discuss it. Know your facts or else you will make yourself sound ignorant.

You also seem unaware of the fact that Jews were hardly the only group being systematically exterminated. 2 million Poles were murdered, along with 1 million Serbs, 800,000 Roma as well as hundreds of thousands of disabled people, Freemasons and gays. Not to mention the millions and millions who weren't part of the extermination program itself, but were killed just for the hell of it, like 4 million Russians, 6 million Slavic peoples, and so on and so on. Know your facts or else you will make yourself sound ignorant.

Not to mention that you're forgetting that Germany was - and is - a largely Christian country. That means that you're forgetting that regardless of how many Christians may or may not have tried to save Jews during the Holocaust... Christians were also pulling the triggers. Know your facts or else you will make yourself sound ignorant.

At any rate, you can work the numbers all you want. Makes no difference. The bible says there is only one unforgiveable sin, and mass murder ain't it.

CompactHaven wrote:
One more thing. The NAZI party was a socialist party.

Ah... so now being socialist means you're not going to heaven, hm?
a_dubDesign
Indi wrote:
My point is shouldn't the Christian answer be "I hope Hitler is going to heaven"? Why would a Christian even be trying to show that he can't be? Isn't that rather blasphemous to attempt to dictate decisions that only God should make? Isn't it rather mean-spirited to hope that someone is going to hell? Isn't just evil to celebrate someone's eternal suffering?

Thank you Indi!
Indi
a_dubDesign wrote:
Indi wrote:
My point is shouldn't the Christian answer be "I hope Hitler is going to heaven"? Why would a Christian even be trying to show that he can't be? Isn't that rather blasphemous to attempt to dictate decisions that only God should make? Isn't it rather mean-spirited to hope that someone is going to hell? Isn't just evil to celebrate someone's eternal suffering?

Thank you Indi!

Welcome. ^_^
Mannix
Here's a nice exerpt from a speach of hitler's:

Quote:
14th October, 1941, midday

"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity....
"Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse....
"...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little....
"Christianity <is> the liar....
"We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State."
tidruG
Mannix wrote:
Here's a nice exerpt from a speach of hitler's:

Quote:
14th October, 1941, midday

"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity....
"Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse....
"...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little....
"Christianity <is> the liar....
"We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State."

I don't think you've read all the posts.
I'm quite sure how Indi is going to reply to this.
He's repeatedly stated that Hitler started becoming incoherent and irrational towards the 1940s and after. Your quote is from Hitler's speech in 1941.
Mannix
My point was that that comes damn close to(or is) blasphemy against the holy spirit(Christianity is the liar(denying christs divinity?)).
We r the SYC
not that im in love with Nazis or ne thing. but i personaly admire hitler, being able to transform germany from a weak and ecanomicly/politicaly wrecked country into a superpower!, its really quite amazing.

as for hitler in heaven......., we'l all see if he goes or not on the day or judgement Razz
TeenZine
I dont like Hitler but I have been to the place in Germany where he had assembeled all of his troops. It is know a High school foot ball statium but it is HUGE
snjripp
Indi wrote:
Apparently, Hitler is not going to heaven because:
    - He was not a Christian.
      This is in disagreement with everything Hitler wrote and said while he was still coherent and rational enough to be objectively interpreted.
    - He did really bad things.
      This is in disagreement with what the bible says, which mentions only one sin that will not be forgiven.
    - He did not ask forgiveness.
      There is no evidence of that. It's just wishful thinking. One would think that a Christian who knew they were about to die would take the time to ask forgiveness. There's no guarantee that he did, but it's a logical assumption.
    - He was not sincere when he asked forgiveness.
      More wishful thinking.
    - He was not sorry for most of his crimes.
      By what logic? Let's assume he was sane at the very end - one would think he would recognize that he had done bad things, although he believed them to be in the service of good. Why is it impossible to be sorry for sinning while still believing it was necessary? "I regret all the evil I have done, and I hope that you can forgive me for it seeing as I did it for good." Is that so hard to believe? And if he wasn't sane... how could he be held responsible for not being sorry?
    - He killed himself.
      This is not scriptural. There is nothing in the bible that says that killing yourself means you're not going to heaven. In fact, on the contrary, the bible clearly says there is only one unforgivable sin - blasphemy. The idea comes from a misinterpretation of a verse about the body being a temple for God, and, ironically, is most rigourously enforced by the Catholics, the same people who invented self-flagellation. Way to keep that temple sacred.


Thanks Indi. Point by point I agree with you for the most part.
1. we was not a christian. - we cannot know and it is quite moot.
2. he did really bad things - true, but moot as according to Lutheran Christianity we are all sinners
3. He did not ask for forgiveness - can not know and therefore moot
4. sincerity? - moot
5. he was not sorry. - can not know and it is the same as #4
6. He killed himself - a ridiculous reason for someone to to to hell.


I do not take joy in the possibility of the existance of hell. I take even less joy at the thought of someone occupying such a place for any length of time. I do not see the work that Christ did as congruent with eternal damnation of any person.

Hitler just happens to be one of the most scandalous figures in recent history. He, as an archetypal "sinner", will stretch the limits of Christianity's understanding of forgiveness and salvation.

So let us say that we cannot know if Hitler is going to heaven. I can say that I hope the event of Christ provides redemption enough to make all questions of individualistic faith moot.

People are so defensive... particularly when religion is involved.
schumway
and we won the war so... he who wins gets to write history.

I am sure he was nasty... but I am sure our hands are not also bloody.
ajgisme
I am a religous Jew and cannot express my anger of what he did!!!
Turning everyone against us!!
And actually thats not true!!!
Hitler was actually Jewish but dennied it and didnt think he was one!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
cbf-cma
Im from North Idaho and we used to have a Nazi compound a couple years ago until they opened fire on some lady's car that backfired and startled them. They lost their compound after that and kicked out their leader, Richard Butler. I think the compound is a peace center now.

NAZI's in the US are completely clueless. Not only do they not know what country they are in but they don't even know what century it is. Good thing there's no groups claiming to be the Huns or something. What a messed up state and country this is.
The Czar
I liked his SS because of them being loyal to Hitler.
Why ... SSNet stands for SchutzstaffelNet.

I liked Hitler because of his Charisma and Loyal SS.
That is why I am rallying members for my SS at school.

But I do hate Nazis. Their System and such and I believe Hitler is going to Hell. I do like their salute. It is however like a prayer like saying "Mein Fuhrer" while doing that...
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