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Historical Understanding of Revelations

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a_dubDesign
Being a Christian, I've heard way more than my fair share of sermons on the book of Revelations, none of which have ever taken into account the fact that it was a letter written from a real person in a real time to other real people in a real time in a real place. They usually end up being about how the microchip is the mark of the beast and how it means hell for everyone (apparently Whong has heard these too). Finally I've heard one that actually takes into account the historical settings of the letter and what that means for people now 2000 and some years later.

Check it out here. Its the video at the very bottom of the middle blue and white table. The Service Element is "Message: Rob Bell" just click "watch". Its about 50 minutes, but an amazing 50 minutes. Trust me, he's not the stereotypical preacher. I would love to hear everyone's thoughts on this, regardless of ones religion.
swapnalokam
iam not a christian.. and i heard this speech... i have read revelations too.. so he is saying everything in the revelations has already been happened and there is nothing in that .. which is going to happen.. right? well that's what I understood.. please enlighten me..
a_dubDesign
swapnalokam wrote:
iam not a christian.. and i heard this speech... i have read revelations too.. so he is saying everything in the revelations has already been happened and there is nothing in that .. which is going to happen.. right? well that's what I understood.. please enlighten me..

I doubt thats the point he was going for, I've been going through more information on revelations in the time period it was written with a friend, and am finding some more interesting stuff. Well actually, hes finding it and telling me where he found it. One thing he read, and another person had heard previously, is the gematria for Emperor Nero's name, when transliterated from Greek to Hebrew or Hebrew to Greek...I don't remember which, "Neron Caesar" adds up to 666. If I understood him correctly that comes from the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia.

I think when we instantly try to apply Revelations to figure out when the end of the world will get here is a total and gross misuse of the book.
swapnalokam
do you know.. any source like.. books or links.. that I can find more about this information.. when I talked about this to some christians.. since Iam a Hindu.. they said I am going against the book.. and I am a non beliver... well.. I didn't mean to offense anybody... anyway.. I wish to know more about this..
wannabdoc
nah dont really agree there. jesus does say that He will be coming back a second time, together with 2 person, whom some scholars believe is John and Elijah, who was taken up into heaven.
i also believe in the rapture, coming of the Anti-Christ as well as the 1000yr reign of Christ on earth.
a_dubDesign
swapnalokam wrote:
do you know.. any source like.. books or links.. that I can find more about this information.. when I talked about this to some christians.. since Iam a Hindu.. they said I am going against the book.. and I am a non beliver... well.. I didn't mean to offense anybody... anyway.. I wish to know more about this..

I'm not to suprised, people don't like to challenge the way they think, espically when it comes to Revelations.

My friend has had some luck looking some stuff up on the International Standard Bible Encycolpedia.. The one complaint he has was that it doesn't have stuff about Demetior, because he was never mentioned by name in the Bible, but he has found some stuff about Nero that relates to this kind of stuff. If I, or he, finds more I'll be sure to let you know.
a_dubDesign
wannabdoc wrote:
nah dont really agree there. jesus does say that He will be coming back a second time, together with 2 person, whom some scholars believe is John and Elijah, who was taken up into heaven.
i also believe in the rapture, coming of the Anti-Christ as well as the 1000yr reign of Christ on earth.

I don't see anything in the video that went against Jesus coming again.
Indi
a_dubDesign wrote:
Being a Christian, I've heard way more than my fair share of sermons on the book of Revelations, none of which have ever taken into account the fact that it was a letter written from a real person in a real time to other real people in a real time in a real place. They usually end up being about how the microchip is the mark of the beast and how it means hell for everyone (apparently Whong has heard these too). Finally I've heard one that actually takes into account the historical settings of the letter and what that means for people now 2000 and some years later.

How much of Bell's points a person would consider relevant depends entirely on their position on the bible. If you consider the bible to be a product of human writers, possibly written specifically for contemporary readers, then Bell's points are fascinating. But if you consider the bible to be written by God and only transcribed by human writers, then Bell's sermon is nothing more than idle speculation - no different from theories of microchips except in the time setting.

I don't really have the historical background to comment directly on Bell's arguments - the historical knowledge I have of the time only focuses from Julius Ceasar through to Nero - but I can make some observations of his observations.

There seems to be much baseless speculation in his position as in any other - such as theories that make Nero the antichrist because the letters of his name in Hebrew, when taken as numbers, add up to 666. In fact, much of what he argues is really kind of a stretch - like his explanation of how Domitian came to be called "Beast". The factual coincidences that he mentions are all explainable by standard classic numerology - like why both God and Domitian had 24 heralds - or standard metaphorical imagery of the time that could very easily have been used by both Domitian and John independently.

Still, it was interesting, and certainly warrants further exploration if you are interested in Revelations (which, I admit, I am largely not). In fact, in general, Bell's methodology is certainly a really interesting way to interpret the bible. If the bible really was simply a product of human writers, it would be fascinating to study where they got the inspirations for their symbology and mythology from.

But if you really do consider Revelations to be... well... revelations... then where the imagery came from (asssuming it was inspired by contemporary culture) is interesting, but not really important. John makes no bones about the fact that the Beast is a person who is coming, and that 666 will be his number, and his mark will be necessary for commerce. If this happens to match some historical person (Domitian, Nero, whatever), that's interesting, but not really important, since that person is obviously not the actual Beast.
swapnalokam
a_dubDesign wrote:
I'm not to suprised, people don't like to challenge the way they think, espically when it comes to Revelations.


I have not challenged any relegion or relegious belivies by knowingly yet.. and I don't belive revelations is true either.. but I wanted to know more about this topic.. because it interested me because of the fact that all christians are saying it is something that going to happen, and this guy says.. it have already been done and is history.. and got nothing to do with future.. so as a nonchristian I would be very interested to know further more..
Indi
swapnalokam wrote:
a_dubDesign wrote:
I'm not to suprised, people don't like to challenge the way they think, espically when it comes to Revelations.


I have not challenged any relegion or relegious belivies by knowingly yet.. and I don't belive revelations is true either.. but I wanted to know more about this topic.. because it interested me because of the fact that all christians are saying it is something that going to happen, and this guy says.. it have already been done and is history.. and got nothing to do with future.. so as a nonchristian I would be very interested to know further more..

Whoa whoa. ^_^ Careful now. That's not what Bell was saying.

Bell appears to be using a liberal methodology of interpreting the bible - meaning that he considers the bible to divinely inspired, but influenced by the environment of the writers. He seems to be of the camp that believes that most of the symbology in the bible is... well... symbolic, and not literal, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't have truth in it.

What he's doing in that seminar/sermon is showing how the environment at the time may have influenced some of the symbols and language used by John in Revelations. For example, why is the Antichrist referrd to as the "Beast"? Bell's explanation is one theory. Why did John use the symbolism of a gathering in an arena to describe being before God? Again, Bell's explanation is a fair answer.

At the same time, he's showing how it may be possible that there may have been a contemporary message there that we can't appreciate now. It is widely believed (by liberal bible scholars, of course) that many aspects of Christianity and the gospels were custom tailored to make them more appealing to non-Jews - or to put it another way, that certain things were said for the purpose of "selling" Christianity to Gentiles (particularly Romans). In other words, the prevailing political climate of the time influenced what details went into the bible and how things were put, but the message is generally true. That's pretty much what Bell was saying, in the case of Revelations - that some of what was written was probably written for the purpose of sending a surreptitious message to Christians under Domitian's thumb.

But he's not saying that the actual Beast has already come and gone - at least he didn't say so explicitly anywhere I noticed. The point(s) of his sermon seems to be that the warning in Revelations (not to take the mark of the Beast) is relevant on a smaller scale to many instances in our lives, and that the Domitian-era Christians had it a lot worse than modern-era Christians so quit your bitching. That doesn't imply that there won't actually be an Antichrist with a mark and number and so on someday.
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