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Heaven is the final station!!! Sure?
Here should be for sure some knowing christs and moslems etc. who can answer the subject question followable, logic and resonable!? I read so much empty phrases, guesses, believes and stuff like this but no logic, proofable, sense making facts.
So please if you have arguments and informations which have the criterias of being proofable and logic then please feel free to let the world know!!!
If NOT please post in these other believer discussion topics. Thx
So please if you have arguments and informations which have the criterias of being proofable and logic then please feel free to let the world know!!!
If NOT please post in these other believer discussion topics. Thx
I voted heaven and hell, bacause you seem to have forgotten heaven or hell. Wether you meant to or it was just an oversight of logic I don't know. Here, however is my proof.
1: I have seen God do miracles.
2: I have spoken with God.
Therefore: A; God exists, and B; my church must know Him correctly, or He would not be so evident there.
Therefore I can safely assume that the bible is at least partialy true.
The bible has passages that state that the whole book is either true or false. Therefore, since I know it is at least partialy true, I can be assured that it is all true.
3:The bible clearly states that you will either go to heaven or hell when you die.
1: I have seen God do miracles.
2: I have spoken with God.
Therefore: A; God exists, and B; my church must know Him correctly, or He would not be so evident there.
Therefore I can safely assume that the bible is at least partialy true.
The bible has passages that state that the whole book is either true or false. Therefore, since I know it is at least partialy true, I can be assured that it is all true.
3:The bible clearly states that you will either go to heaven or hell when you die.
| Gerhard Schwenke wrote: |
| Here should be for sure some knowing christs and moslems etc. who can answer the subject question followable, logic and resonable!? I read so much empty phrases, guesses, believes and stuff like this but no logic, proofable, sense making facts.
So please if you have arguments and informations which have the criterias of being proofable and logic then please feel free to let the world know!!! If NOT please post in these other believer discussion topics. Thx |
This probably won't be a shock to you but no one can actually provide actual, tangable evidence about the physical existence of Heaven, Hell, The Summer Lands, Nirvana or whatever. It's why religion perently resids within the realm of Faith.
One thing you might want to keep in mind though (and a lot of people forget), logic and science often changes as humans learn more about the world around them. People used to think that it was logical to think that the Earth was the center of the universe and that the Earth was flat. Now that we all know differently it is no longer logical to think this way. The logical conclusion to this is that to cling strictly to logic and what can be proven by the current state of science is illogical. It's much more logical to keep an open mind about stuff pending further investigation.
After all, you never know what will be discovered next. People back in the Victorian era thought that they dwelled in the time of total scientific enlightenment. That there was nothing else to be learned or invented. I guess they were wrong concidering what we have today and what they didn't have then. To fall into the Victorian mindset that there is nothing else to discover would be illogical.
At first thanks for your posts!
To 1, 2 and 2A: Your sensations might were real and the interpretation maybe true.
T 2B: What means "evident there"?
Then how should be the existence of God an evidence for right or wrong of a book written by man?
Then even if we say God gave the words in the head of the writers how you know god is telling the truth?
To 3: The topic was if heaven or hell is the FINAL STATION not about just what happens after when you die. Does the bible say anywhere it's the final station?
Summa sumarum these arguments seems for me not more knowing etc. than in the other topics. But thanks!
------
I know nobody can GIVE me a proof of the physical existence of these things, theoretical (own experience or logic arguments) would be fine as well!
I know how you would be able to proof that this is not correct! At the beginning it might be and also as long as you practice wrong or not at all but during right practice you will see what is really believe or illussion and not.
Beside of this If it would be really like this religion would be the biggest time waster after TV.
Now ladies and gentleman let me introduce a person who starts to think by himself or at least is reading books of people who used to think by themselves.
Not only often! "Often" if you only look at one piece of the whole but this is not the reality.
Correct Mister! What you call logic depends on the collected amount of knowledge from experience and creation at this moment. Your experience constantly change all the time so your knowledge and so your logic also change as well!!! The only logic which is stable is the logic that nothing is stable.
I see you nearly get it. To repeat what your meaning in other words: The right thinking and knowing or logic is that everything is changing so to cling to something and to believe it is stable, is ignoranz or not knowing of the reality!! This ignoranz or just not knowing causes so much trouble and suffer for mankind.
Yes, knowledge is endless, constantly changing!
Thank you! Go on like this and once you will know the truth about this existence.
| Quote: |
| 1: I have seen God do miracles.
2: I have spoken with God. Therefore: A; God exists, and B; my church must know Him correctly, or He would not be so evident there. Therefore I can safely assume that the bible is at least partialy true. The bible has passages that state that the whole book is either true or false. Therefore, since I know it is at least partialy true, I can be assured that it is all true. 3:The bible clearly states that you will either go to heaven or hell when you die. |
To 1, 2 and 2A: Your sensations might were real and the interpretation maybe true.
T 2B: What means "evident there"?
Then how should be the existence of God an evidence for right or wrong of a book written by man?
Then even if we say God gave the words in the head of the writers how you know god is telling the truth?
To 3: The topic was if heaven or hell is the FINAL STATION not about just what happens after when you die. Does the bible say anywhere it's the final station?
Summa sumarum these arguments seems for me not more knowing etc. than in the other topics. But thanks!
------
| Quote: |
| ...tangable evidence about the physical existence of Heaven... |
I know nobody can GIVE me a proof of the physical existence of these things, theoretical (own experience or logic arguments) would be fine as well!
| Quote: |
| It's why religion perently resids within the realm of Faith. |
I know how you would be able to proof that this is not correct! At the beginning it might be and also as long as you practice wrong or not at all but during right practice you will see what is really believe or illussion and not.
Beside of this If it would be really like this religion would be the biggest time waster after TV.
Now ladies and gentleman let me introduce a person who starts to think by himself or at least is reading books of people who used to think by themselves.
| Quote: |
| One thing you might want to keep in mind though (and a lot of people forget), logic and science often changes as humans learn more about the world around them. |
Not only often! "Often" if you only look at one piece of the whole but this is not the reality.
Correct Mister! What you call logic depends on the collected amount of knowledge from experience and creation at this moment. Your experience constantly change all the time so your knowledge and so your logic also change as well!!! The only logic which is stable is the logic that nothing is stable.
| Quote: |
| The logical conclusion to this is that to cling strictly to logic and what can be proven by the current state of science is illogical. It's much more logical to keep an open mind about stuff pending further investigation. |
I see you nearly get it. To repeat what your meaning in other words: The right thinking and knowing or logic is that everything is changing so to cling to something and to believe it is stable, is ignoranz or not knowing of the reality!! This ignoranz or just not knowing causes so much trouble and suffer for mankind.
| Quote: |
| To fall into the Victorian mindset that there is nothing else to discover would be illogical. |
Yes, knowledge is endless, constantly changing!
Thank you! Go on like this and once you will know the truth about this existence.
| ocalhoun wrote: |
| Therefore I can safely assume that the bible is at least partialy true.
The bible has passages that state that the whole book is either true or false. Therefore, since I know it is at least partialy true, I can be assured that it is all true. |
What about genesis?
God created all of life, the earth and everything in 7 days. However, we know that dinosaurs definitely exsited for much much longer than man existed.
So, doesn't this make the Bible entirely false?
| ocalhoun wrote: |
|
Therefore I can safely assume that the bible is at least partialy true. The bible has passages that state that the whole book is either true or false. Therefore, since I know it is at least partialy true, I can be assured that it is all true. |
How you know that the statement "either totally true or totally false" cannot be false? Let the whole book is false, then the statement "Either tatally true or totally false" will be true. Thus the statement "Either totally true, or totally false" become false, because at least one statement is true. Thus the statement can be true in only one case, if the book is totally true. Thus the statement is a paradox to prove the book totally true.
These types of paradox is created by lyers. Thus I believe that the bible is mostly false. Only few true statements are added to prove the book totally true, with the help of the paradox, "Totally true, or totally false".
| Gerhard Schwenke wrote: |
| Here should be for sure some knowing christs and moslems etc. who can answer the subject question followable, logic and resonable!? I read so much empty phrases, guesses, believes and stuff like this but no logic, proofable, sense making facts.
So please if you have arguments and informations which have the criterias of being proofable and logic then please feel free to let the world know!!! If NOT please post in these other believer discussion topics. Thx |
Well, you haven't given enough options in your poll for me to answer!
For the unbeliever its Hell, yes!
But for the believer its a bit more complicated! First Jesus will come and take us to Heaven and after that God will create a new Heaven and a new earth and on that new earth we will live! That is stated in the end of Revelation! This particular discussion is actually an exercise in futility. As the believers will attempt to "Prove" their position and the "non-believers" will attempt to disprove that position. On the subject of faith there is no Proof, that is why it is called faith, not science. No one can prove indefinatley that there is an afterlife as no one has come back from the dead. No one can prove their particular beliefs except for that person and their interpretation of events, past and present. Yes I said Interpretation of events. All events are see through Biased eyes, no one is fully unbiased.
As for Me I believe in something older than Christianity, and to me, something more natural.
I have modled my beliefs after the ancient Celts. I try to follow the path of the Druid.
as a scholar, I try to study all I can, but what I feel is right and true is Druidry.
Last edited by Shike on Sun May 28, 2006 10:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
As for Me I believe in something older than Christianity, and to me, something more natural.
I have modled my beliefs after the ancient Celts. I try to follow the path of the Druid.
as a scholar, I try to study all I can, but what I feel is right and true is Druidry.
Last edited by Shike on Sun May 28, 2006 10:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
@ shike
so what is your riligion exactly
so what is your riligion exactly
| death_dealer wrote: |
| @ shike
so what is your riligion exactly |
Shike told you in his post.
| shike wrote: |
| as a scholar, I try to study all I can, but what I feel is right and true is Druidry. |
I put in the bold and also capitalized the D in Druidry. All religions deserve to be capitalized. My Question is if you follow any Order like A. D. F. or O. B. O. D. or if you are an independent traveler on that path.
I also follow a Celtic path but don't concider myself a Druid. Still trying to come up with an easy to understand "catch-all" to describe exactly what I am .
It hasn't been too easy since the British Traditions decided that if you aren't one of them then you shouldn't call yourself Wiccan. Some nonsense about the word didn't exist before Gerald Gardner on one hand yet they persist that the word is from an ancient language. Go figure. For myself I decided that if they want it they can have it.
That's neither here nor there really. Most of that was just to strech out the answer a little. Most of us folks that follow a Celtic path though believe in reincarnation. That our immortal existance is a cycle of birth, life, death and re-birth. Most also have a concept of a "place of rest" within the cycle where we pause within the cycle and review the lessons we learned from our past lives before re-entering the cycle.
Since this "place of rest" has different names and concepts that vary from tradition to tradition and often based on how well you did in your past life I won't go too deeply into that. Not really that important. The real important aspect could be better summed up in a popular song often heard in Neo-Pagan Circles; We are born of the Goddess, and to Her we shall return. Of course I'm speaking only for myself here. Shike's beliefs may be slightly or even completely different from my own.
| Quote: |
| Shike told you in his post |
yeh but what is it exactly
just curious
also
sowi tex i couldnt read your hole post ill read it next time im in a ruch now
| death_dealer wrote: | ||
yeh but what is it exactly just curious also sowi tex i couldnt read your hole post ill read it next time im in a ruch now |
Well, shike should explain to you exactly what s/he means by Druidry. I only mentioned two of the modern groups but shike may not be involved in either one. I could give you a rather long and complex post about Druidry and not come close to touching on all of it or even exactly what shike believes.
Instead I'll refer you to a link that will give you a good (at least long) general description of Druidry. Here you go http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druidry
| Tex_Arcana wrote: | ||||
Shike told you in his post.
I put in the bold and also capitalized the D in Druidry. All religions deserve to be capitalized. My Question is if you follow any Order like A. D. F. or O. B. O. D. or if you are an independent traveler on that path. I also follow a Celtic path but don't concider myself a Druid. Still trying to come up with an easy to understand "catch-all" to describe exactly what I am . It hasn't been too easy since the British Traditions decided that if you aren't one of them then you shouldn't call yourself Wiccan. Some nonsense about the word didn't exist before Gerald Gardner on one hand yet they persist that the word is from an ancient language. Go figure. For myself I decided that if they want it they can have it.
That's neither here nor there really. Most of that was just to strech out the answer a little. Most of us folks that follow a Celtic path though believe in reincarnation. That our immortal existance is a cycle of birth, life, death and re-birth. Most also have a concept of a "place of rest" within the cycle where we pause within the cycle and review the lessons we learned from our past lives before re-entering the cycle. Since this "place of rest" has different names and concepts that vary from tradition to tradition and often based on how well you did in your past life I won't go too deeply into that. Not really that important. The real important aspect could be better summed up in a popular song often heard in Neo-Pagan Circles; We are born of the Goddess, and to Her we shall return. Of course I'm speaking only for myself here. Shike's beliefs may be slightly or even completely different from my own. |
Tex_Arcana, Becouse of my location, I am a solitary traveler. Unfortunately, also because of my location it is difficult to find information on the path of the druid that isn't all cought up in the "new age" feel.
I am not afilliated with either of the two groups you mentioned but have, at least, looked at the OBOD.
I've been trying to do as much research as I can on the original path of druidry, and thus I try not to call myself a Druid, except when it's easier than trying to tell people I try to follow the path of druidry w/o being a druid yet. Unfortunately, or rather fortunately most of the time, there is only so much you can learn from books. Much of the path of Drudry must be experienced personally.
Tex, I am infact male, but do not feel offended when reffered to in the feminine. As it is, my patroness has become the Goddess Brighid, the triune goddes of smithcraft, bardcraft, and healing.
your summation is quite accurate. Though, if you look at what you said about life and re-birth, that belief is also apart of Buddhist and Hindu (I think) traditions as well.
I have actually found a number of parallels between, at least, Zen Buddhism and Drudry that are too obvious (to me) to ignore and have begun, to some point, integrate some Zen teachings, such as za-zen, into my drudic path.
i voted Hell and Heaven..Because people should receive their rights.If a person steal your money and won't punish,it doesn't mean "He did a good thing and you were wrong.He can steal everything except he arrested.He won't be punished"There is a place to punish and receive the rights!And only God could has the reel justice.For example Saddam he is still try to judge but none of the punishments could get enough for him except going to HELL!
On the other hand;People do good something.for example helping a person!He doesn't get any payment or respect for it in the world but he will get his payment in the Heaven!
On the other hand;People do good something.for example helping a person!He doesn't get any payment or respect for it in the world but he will get his payment in the Heaven!
There is no final destination. We just die. No heaven, no hell, no reincarnation, nothing. Just complete oblivion.
| Whong wrote: |
| Well, you haven't given enough options in your poll for me to answer!
For the unbeliever its Hell, yes! But for the believer its a bit more complicated! First Jesus will come and take us to Heaven and after that God will create a new Heaven and a new earth and on that new earth we will live! That is stated in the end of Revelation! |
You're too optimistic.
God does not judge people basing on whether they believe in Him or not, only whether they are able to truly love the other people. That is why even the most practising Christian could go to hell if he would not follow his way in his life, and that even the atheists could be redeemed if he had lived with love. If you think that you would be saved only because making such intelligent posts, you are wrong 
.
And in the book of Revelation there is actually nothing about hell. At least not about hell as people imagine it - a flaming place led by nasty devils that eternily torture all the people. The Bible says that in the end of history, the Satan, the Beast and the Death will all be defeated once and for all, showed through a symbol of throwing them into a flaming lake. The same fate is for those, whose names are not in the book of life, or exactly, who did not accept the Divine Love, in any of its form.
God is not a human, He does not need to take revenge on the people for behaving badly. He only kindly asks us to follow His hints how to become a better human, how to get out of our egosim and start disinterestedly loving other people. That way we could prepare for Heaven, as Heaven mean directly facing the Love of God, and uniting with His love. (It is described in 1 Kor how the love of God is: "Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.")
Sounds too boring and nonsense, right? Don't worry, if you find it so, God will not force you to become such a sucker
. And to resist His presence for the eternity. You would be just separated from Him, that's all. And why is this called Hell? In my opinion, those who decide to turn away from this Divine Love, will just get known how much did they lose.
[-I know I have written a similar post somewhere there, but I hope that's not wrong.-]
| The Conspirator wrote: |
| There is no final destination. We just die. No heaven, no hell, no reincarnation, nothing. Just complete oblivion. |
This is a very pessimistic view of life. I for one would become severely depressed if I viewed life in this way. How one views the afterlife is a reflection of how they view life.
Of course, this is my personal opinion and you are in no way required or even asked to change your views. I only post what I think and feel.
cheers
| the_mariska wrote: |
| You're too optimistic. God does not judge people basing on whether they believe in Him or not, only whether they are able to truly love the other people. That is why even the most practising Christian could go to hell if he would not follow his way in his life, and that even the atheists could be redeemed if he had lived with love. If you think that you would be saved only because making such intelligent posts, you are wrong . |
I think Mariska has the jist of the point here. It is not whether or not we all believe the same thing, that is impossible, it is wheter or not we choose to let the divine influence our actions and choose to allow love into our lives. If the divine had only one true path, then that path would have been shown to us as the true path and would have been shown to us at the beginning and through out all cultures. The only constants between cultures are language, religion/philosophy, and creativity (as far as I know
) What if the act of believing in something bigger/more powerful than ourselves, and that that personification only desires love is the onlything that is necessary to enter into paradise (however you define it)?I think Nibbana is our final destiny because Nibbana can only be achieved when we have dismished our cause of suffering. Heaven is a place for people who have done good deeds in his/her life, whereas Hell is a place for people who have done bad deeds in his/her life. But neither heaven nor hell is permanent, when one's good/bad deeds have been paid they will be no longer be in heaven/hell. So we need to know the reason why we live now by examining ourselves and anything around us as they are, and see them behind the delusion. If we already why we are here and the cause of suffering and at last diminish suffering. Then we will be in Nibbana, to the Unborn and the Unmade.
Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father but by Him! Through Jesus we can get to heaven! We ourselves are not worthy of the glorious magnificence of heaven, but because Christ did the job for us we have access to heaven IF we believe that Jesus is indeed the Son of God, that He died for our sins(as He Himself was perfect, without sin) and rose from the dead on the third day and is seated on the right side of God the Father. We would all deserve the damnation of hell, but Jesus has overcome death! Death has no power over us any longer IF we believe in Jesus and accept Him as our personal saviour! 
I am optimistic and I am confident in God mercy and think therefore that I will go to Heaven! 
Yes you'll may be chocked of that but I think God is so merciful that he will not punished someone loving him, not doing bad things, not lying, have noble moralities, etc.
Yes you'll may be chocked of that but I think God is so merciful that he will not punished someone loving him, not doing bad things, not lying, have noble moralities, etc.
| Shike wrote: | ||
This is a very pessimistic view of life. I for one would become severely depressed if I viewed life in this way. How one views the afterlife is a reflection of how they view life. |
I would rather say the opposite. Sure it is a pessimistic view, but not of our current life.
If you don't believe in an afterlife, then you will put full value into your life as it's the only thing you will ever have. If you are doing something good, then it's not because you want to be rewarded by a god or go to heaven, but because you actually want to do something good. Because you feel good by doing good things.
The more you believe in an afterlife, the more you tend to see the current life as just a worthless, temporary station, a test, looking forward to something that might never come. You do good things because that's the way to heaven and you think you will be rewarded for them. It's rather the spirit of be nice and get a cookie. Without the cookie, you wouldn't be kind, life wouldn't have a sense anyway.
| Whong wrote: |
| Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father but by Him! Through Jesus we can get to heaven! |
Allright. But He has a very special plan for everybody, even those who don't believe in Him. Everyone is invited to take a part in the God's plan and to follow His way, no matter who they are.
I have a friend, called Christine. She considers the Bible as one of the wisest books ever written, and she is almost a living example of how should we bring into life Its words. She says that she would love to become a Christian, but there is one problem. She does not believe in God at all. Do you think that God would sentence such a person to hell?
| Whong wrote: |
| We would all deserve the damnation of hell, but Jesus has overcome death! Death has no power over us any longer IF we believe in Jesus and accept Him as our personal saviour! |
Everything is OK, but you forgot about one little, but very important thing. To be a Christian does not mean only to believe that God exists. It means also letting Him change your life. If we just pray to the Lord, but still make the same mistakes and don't want to change it, and think that everything is OK as Jesus will save us anyway, we are just pharisees. And I guess you know what did He say of people that kind...
I know we could never be perfect, but the most important thing is to try. To try breaking our egoism, to try following Him in everything He did. Only then we could call ourselves His disciples or followers.
| alawe2el wrote: |
| Yes you'll may be chocked of that but I think God is so merciful that he will not punished someone loving him, not doing bad things, not lying, have noble moralities, etc. |
I guess we are not that perfect anyway. To be saint does not mean to be perfect, it means to keep on trying to change for better. As Jesus said, He prefers one person who convinces for better that 99 those, who claim that they don't need to change anything. But that says even more about God's Mercy.
| Shike wrote: |
| This is a very pessimistic view of life. |
Its not pessimism, Its that after allot of thought I came to the conclusion that there is no afterlife based on that versions of the afterlife are different and that there is no evidence (hopefully yet) that we have a soul. I do hope there is an afterlife though but that makes me less likely to ever believe in one cause that belief could be based solely on that hope.
| Whong wrote: |
| We ourselves are not worthy of the glorious magnificence of heaven, |
If I'm a pessimist you are a super pessimist. I don;t believe in an afterlife but I hope for one, a good one even for the evil people (though if you kill 20 people, it won't be a paradise cause as soon as you get there, those 20 people will kick you ass)
| The Conspirator wrote: | ||
Its not pessimism, Its that after allot of thought I came to the conclusion that there is no afterlife based on that versions of the afterlife are different and that there is no evidence (hopefully yet) that we have a soul. I do hope there is an afterlife though but that makes me less likely to ever believe in one cause that belief could be based solely on that hope. |
Ok, With this explanation, I better understand your position, and, I would have to agree with you on it.
| The Conspirator wrote: | ||
If I'm a pessimist you are a super pessimist. I don;t believe in an afterlife but I hope for one, a good one even for the evil people (though if you kill 20 people, it won't be a paradise cause as soon as you get there, those 20 people will kick you ***) |
I also have to agree with you here, I personally think Whong might be too much of a zelot for his own good.
Cheers
| Shike wrote: |
| If you don't believe in an afterlife, then you will put full value into your life as it's the only thing you will ever have. If you are doing something good, then it's not because you want to be rewarded by a god or go to heaven, but because you actually want to do something good. Because you feel good by doing good things.
The more you believe in an afterlife, the more you tend to see the current life as just a worthless, temporary station, a test, looking forward to something that might never come. You do good things because that's the way to heaven and you think you will be rewarded for them. It's rather the spirit of be nice and get a cookie. Without the cookie, you wouldn't be kind, life wouldn't have a sense anyway. |
I feel that we can do both. I don't give a lot of thought to if I'll go to Heaven or not. I don't do good with that goal in mind. Yes, I want to see Jesus. Yes, I want to go to Heaven. But I don't use that as a reason to do what's good or right. I don't see this life as worthless, temporary, yes, but never worthless, not even a test. Even without believing in Heaven, I would think of this life as temporary. We only have so much time on this planet before our bodies give out. Even without a belief in and afterlife, it's only temporary so enjoy what time you have. Have fun with your children, enjoy being with your spouse. Life is meant to be enjoyed, not suffered through. Each new day has a million possiblities, it's up to each of us to choose if it's good or bad.
| Bondings wrote: |
| If you don't believe in an afterlife, then you will put full value into your life as it's the only thing you will ever have. If you are doing something good, then it's not because you want to be rewarded by a god or go to heaven, but because you actually want to do something good. Because you feel good by doing good things.
The more you believe in an afterlife, the more you tend to see the current life as just a worthless, temporary station, a test, looking forward to something that might never come. You do good things because that's the way to heaven and you think you will be rewarded for them. It's rather the spirit of be nice and get a cookie. Without the cookie, you wouldn't be kind, life wouldn't have a sense anyway. |
In Hinduism and Buddhism it is believed that you have by far the greatest impact on your karma while living and not in te afterlife, so you can't balance your karma in the afterlife. You can only make your karmic completions while incarnate.
In terms of Judeo-Christianity I think that you are painting all sects with a conservative brush. Certainly some conservative sects fall into the picture you paint, but by no means all Christian sects, much less Jewish sects.
In Christianity this life determines do you go to heaven or to hell. Not by doing good or by being a generous person. NO!
Jesus said: I am the Way, the Truth and the Life! No one comes to the father but by Me!
Jesus is our gate to heaven. We must believe in Him and that He died for our sins and that He rose again!
Thats how I see it!
Jesus said: I am the Way, the Truth and the Life! No one comes to the father but by Me!
Jesus is our gate to heaven. We must believe in Him and that He died for our sins and that He rose again!
Thats how I see it!
 |