I feel it is important to mention before I get too deeply into this that I am in fact an atheist, which puts me in the rather difficult position of not having any personal passion for certain elements of what I discuss, and for this reason I hope that any Christian folk (that is, afterall, the religion this is aimed at) will give their ideas and, more importantly, dissect what I believe from the viewpoint of someone who passionately believes, in some way, in the Christian perception of life and reality.
The concept of a hell or damnation at death is a sensible thing to fear. On the presumption that hell or a hell like idea is truth, then it is indisputable that it would be feared to some extent.
I have read the bible, and whilst I cannot cite from it too deeply, I draw upon one single quote directly from the mouth of Jesus (as per the bible)
| Quote: |
| Let the dead bury their dead |
It is my interpretation that this single statement references the entire core of Jesus' teachings: the idea that man shall be given the gift of "life" by Jesus. In this way he states that he will give meaning to life, not that he will literally give life but that he will make life more than a biological process culminating in its final cessitation.
So drawing on that idea, my original quote must therefor mean that Jesus cares not for death in the manner that most would, and is encouraging at this time his disciple to remain with him to learn and become 'living'.
It seems to me that, therefor, any idea that hell is an all consuming end, and living life in fear and expectation of such a damnation is against the teachings of Jesus himself; he wants you to be concerned with life and living, not with death.
The Christians I see around me, however, adorn themselves with images within their churches of hell, cite the bible with warnings of it and even accuse others of being bound toward it, despite the fact that the bible seems to say that man should live, not think of or worry for death.
Assuming that I'm right: are many christians this way, or do I merely live around a Christian community that is over-cautious? Is the idea that hell is even promoted against the teachings of Jesus? (he would ask, surely, for teachings of the right way to live, not teachings of what will happen if you don't)
I'm sure however, that there are many that would say I'm wrong, and it is them who I wish most to answer this, disect what I have thought and say what they believe I have missed. Amen kapaha!
| kapaha wrote: |
are many christians this way, or do I merely live around a Christian community that is over-cautious?
|
There do seem to be alot of people with this mindset, but I'm convinced its becoming less and less as the days go on. Literal hell or not, people are realizing that Jesus spent way more time about love than he did hell.
| kapaha wrote: |
Is the idea that hell is even promoted against the teachings of Jesus? (he would ask, surely, for teachings of the right way to live, not teachings of what will happen if you don't)
|
Possibily. I do know that Jesus's harsh words were for the people who used the fear of hell to get people to stop sinning (Pharisees) and not to the tax collectors(Matthew) killers(Paul) and prositutes(Mary Magdalen).
Over and over again in the gospels we see that Jesus wasn't all about the external controls that fear brings about, but he wanted a relationship with him which leads to an inner transformation. When the inside is in the right place, the outside follows.
*edited to fix quotes This is why I am Catholic. My Church preaches hope and life, not Hell and death. I want to be clear though, just because Jesus' teachings were not centered around Hell does not mean it doesn't exist, and you are right in one matter; it is to be feared. Who would want to live a life completely seperated from God in a "lake of fire", burning everyday for eternity? Not I.
But that's not the reason I believe. Fear did not push me to believe, because you can't choose to believe in God only by fear. I've got two things: a Bible, and faith. That's what gets me through each day... mostly the faith.
You make some good points, and I agree, most Christians are so worried about going to hell that they forget just how good this life can be. They want to use it to get people to convert to Christianity when they should be preaching love, mercy and compassion.
As far as the verse you used, it's really not about heaven or hell. Jesus was gathering up his disciples when one asked time to go bury his father. My understanding of that is this: There is nothing we can really do for someone when they die. They have made their choices and must accept what happens because of those choices.
Look at this verse, same message. | Quote: |
Lu 9:60
Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God. |
When someone dies, that person's soul is in God's hands. All we're left with is an empy shell. It's made out of dust and water.
You're also correct when you said that Jesus spent more time teaching about love. He did, but there are several referrences he made about hell as well.
| Quote: |
| So drawing on that idea, my original quote must therefor mean that Jesus cares not for death in the manner that most would, and is encouraging at this time his disciple to remain with him to learn and become 'living'. |
Why fear death? | Quote: |
1Co 15:54
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? |
I mean no disrespect to anyone here, but if you follow the teachings of Christ, use him as an example of how to live, then death has no sting. It's just something that our body has to go through.
| Quote: |
Mt 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Lu 12:4
And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
Lu 12:5
But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him. |
Soulfire, your post here and previous posts in the past seem to be in odd relationship. You speak of hope and life and not being able to believe by fear, but many of your previous posts speak only of the hell and death and a fear motivated Gospel. I'm wondering if this is something you are making conscious effort on because I've seen you starting to lean away from that in a couple of your more recent posts, either way its a nice thing to see.
*edited to add a missing word
Assume that you are convinced that there are certain terrorists in your neighborhood. (This is just a random example, it does not resemble with anything.) So you know that people are going to suffer, but you also know not everyone will believe you if you warn them. Because they aren't convinced of the existence of those terrorists. And taking action to protect themselves costs them a lot - e.g. moving away from the area or whatever. So the dilemme you will face is: should you tell the people, so that they get the chance to escape death? They will not like it, and they will say "YEAH RIGHT, we don't need you to tell us what's good for us. We can take care of ourselves."
You can find out for yourselves how you interpret this, but I'm not intending to comment on it any further.
Another parable based on fear, I probably shouldn't be suprised. I have one that better describes the kingdom of heaven here on earth.
This rich business owner decides to throw an awesome dinner party, pretty much the best party ever, and he invites all of his affluent business friends, the people who have lots of wealth and run many things. Once the party was prepared, the rich guy tells his servants to go get the people he invited. They all made up excuses and ditched him. So the rich guy tells his servants to go find people on the streets who look hungry or are homless or are outcasts or drug dealers or prostitutes, anyone and everyone, and even go out to the middle of no where to bring people to his awesome party because he wants to house packed.
We've all been invited to an absolutely amazing party, no matter what our status is!
Incase your wondering, thats a quick personal paraphrase from Luke 14:16-24. It's a matter of balance. You need both sides, not just the hell part, but also not just the heaven part.
| Arnie wrote: |
| It's a matter of balance. You need both sides, not just the hell part, but also not just the heaven part. |
I'm assuming by heaven/hell you mean in the afterlife, which is very much not what I'm talking about. Hence my line Kingdom of Heaven here on earth.
Us christians have a horrible tendency to make everything about the afterlife, when most of what Jesus talked about was heaven crashing into earth. Its not about us dying and getting to hevean, its about us truly living and bringing heaven here.well since heven and hell are seposed to be eternal the feeling good on earth is a feeling witch makes u proud of what u do or sad also as menchend above ppl couse mischifen and feel good about them selfs and vic verse
so there is realy no proof of this phelosify
im out
