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Workplaces ready for day without immigrant staff





Vrythramax
Quote:
From mighty meatpacking plants to tiny taco stands, U.S. businesses are making plans to deal with Monday's nationwide pro-immigration boycott, which could keep millions of people away from their jobs.

Contingency plans range from juggling schedules to hiring temporary workers to closing down altogether, companies say.

Organizers say millions of immigrants and their supporters will participate in the demonstrations, scheduled to protest legislation that would declare illegal immigrants felons and erect a fence along much of the U.S.-Mexico border. Such job actions could close down several major cities, they say.

"We're going to close to show support," said Robbie Mendez, who works at his family's Las Palmas Taco Bar in Santa Cruz, California, which has eight employees. "Immigrants do a lot to help run this country and, I believe, to help the economy."

Dozens of companies have sought advice from the Atlanta-based law firm of Jackson Lewis, which specializes in labor issues, said one of its partners, Jonathan Spitz.

"It shows the extent that people are taking this seriously," said Spitz, who said some companies were even considering opening on Sunday in order to close on Monday.

"There's been an awful lot of cooperation by companies and by employees," Spitz said. "No one who has called is looking to fire employees when there are better solutions."


Yahoo News Full Story

Is this all stemming from the Immigrant March that happened not long ago? This is the first I have heard of a planned walk out. Anyone else hear about this?
ChaosMike
Yeah, they were talking about this on the radio for some time, at least in the Los Angeles area. They're going to be walking a few blocks away from my house as well, so I don't know how I'll be getting back home from school d'oh!
S3nd K3ys
It's funny how these idiots would try to destroy the very thing they're here for. How stupid is that?

Not that I think it will have a major effect, but seriously, how stupid.

Well this is going to bring us to a standstill in America.

For a single day, our office trashcans will overflow and not a single leaf will be blown.

Woop.dee.doo.

Rolling Eyes

The only thing worse than illegal immigrants is union illegal immigrants.

Congratulations, turds, now America hates you even more. Yell loudly, begging to stay, while waving the flag of the shiat-hole that you fled. No wonder Mexico is such a corrupt poverty-ridden dump and getting worse by the day.

Make sure you all look around you today and note which businesses are closed in support of the illegals and which aren't. I know what I see today will influence my spending habits for months to come.

Tomorrow is....

PINK SLIPS FOR TEH BROWN MAN 2K6!!!1
Laughing Laughing Laughing
Hobbit
This is really a big deal. It's going to affect the economy greatly. I live in a border city (next to Mexico) and there's A LOT of Hispanics. About 50% of the students didn't go to school. The school gets paid 38$ per student, so that means they only won 38,000$ rather than 76000$ since there's 2000 students. And that's only my school. This is happening around the country (the % probably not as high) so imagine how much the economy is being hurt. And this isn't happening in schools only as you know, it's happening in jobs, and a lot of people aren't purchasing anything today.

What do you guys think of a day without an immigrant?
xorcist
I live in South Florida ther was barely anyone in school's today especially in Miami they said 10% of the students was not there. Lots of business in Miami that had immigrant owners closed down to show that of they werent here how it would be. Lots of Immigrant take the jobs that other people dont want to and they want to ship them back to there country, some jobs if Immigrant's weren't working lots of people wouldnt be getting things done. (like rich people with maids construction workers) Just to name some they did a report on tv and said how 10 construction workers showed up for work today on a big job to and the rest were Immigrants.
xalophus
S3nd K3ys wrote:
PINK SLIPS FOR TEH BROWN MAN 2K6!!!1
Laughing Laughing Laughing

What has skin colour got to do with it ?

Are all Americans fair skinned ?
Or will dark complexioned American citizens get the pink slip as well ?
S3nd K3ys
xalophus wrote:

What has skin colour got to do with it ?


According to (mainly illegal) immigrants (who are mainly mexican), ANYONE who thinks the US borders should be secured are racists. Perhaps you haven't been watching the news? Rolling Eyes

Hobbit wrote:


What do you guys think of a day without an immigrant?


It was a nice, peaceful ride to work. We should have more of those days. The effect on the economy, (save a few regions), was negligable. Al lthey did is show how willing they are to try to destroy what they are here for.

Seriously stupid IMNSHO.
damj
[quote="Vrythramax"]
Quote:
From mighty meatpacking plants to tiny taco stands, U.S. businesses are making plans to deal with Monday's nationwide pro-immigration boycott, which could keep millions of people away from their jobs.

Contingency plans range from juggling schedules to hiring temporary workers to closing down altogether, companies say.

Organizers say millions of immigrants and their supporters will participate in the demonstrations, scheduled to protest legislation that would declare illegal immigrants felons and erect a fence along much of the U.S.-Mexico border. Such job actions could close down several major cities, they say.


Ah ... that explains why my kids (adopted from Russia and Guatemala) didn't want to get up this morning. d'oh! Laughing
Devil
S3nd K3ys wrote:
Hobbit wrote:


What do you guys think of a day without an immigrant?


It was a nice, peaceful ride to work. We should have more of those days. The effect on the economy, (save a few regions), was negligable. Al lthey did is show how willing they are to try to destroy what they are here for.

Seriously stupid IMNSHO.


it is only uhrting them , now the americans will not trust these people .

plus i think all this is crap , how can they break the law and demand to be rewarded ,

just think about how many people get thier ids stolen , and other taxpayers are carrying thier burden ,

this is total crap , i think all the political leaders should come together and bring strict laws against the companies who hire these guys ,
S3nd K3ys
Yep. Just hurting themselves now.

But we still keep hearing from the media that it's an 'immigration debate'.

Guess what?

It's not!

It's an 'ILLEGAL immigration debate' which shouldn't be a stinkin debate at all.

I'm so tired of hearing about the good these illegals bring via income taxes, ssi etc.

That is NOTHING compared to what they COST via healthcare, education, insurance rates, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc. The actual monetary numbers are mind numbing, not to mention the wasted resources.
Traveller
Hobbit wrote:
This is really a big deal. It's going to affect the economy greatly.


Ah, yes. The classic, logical fallacy of ignoratio elenchi - sometimes also called "missing the point."

First of all, there is a different between "a day without immigrants" and "a day without illegal immigrants." If ALL immigrants staged a boycott, it could be a real mess for the economy. The issue, however, is NOT with ALL immigrants - only with those who are in the U.S. illegally.

Even so, it still could cause problems in some places if all the illegal immigrants staged a boycott. That, in itself, serves to show not that the illegal immigrants belong in the U.S., but that the problem has been neglected long enough that it has been allowed to develop to cancerous proportions.

The real problem is that illegal immigrants are just that: illegal - they are breaking the law. Operating under that realization, and exhibiting classic rationalization, the advocates for these lawbreakers have stated that the problem is not with the immigrants, but with the law, and they have even likened it to the infamous "Jim Crow" laws. The latter, however, had been enacted by one particular race with the express intent of oppressing another. Normal imigration laws, on the other hand, guard the security and economy of the country (the security, by attempting to prevent criminals and terrorists out; and the economy, by attempting to ensure that funds and services that are paid for by legal citizens and residents are not usurped by someone who persists in breaking the law, and may not have contributed to those funds or services).

If the economy IS greatly affected, it simply means that politicians (of ALL political parties) have pooh-poohed the problem long enough and that enough immigrants have continued breaking the law that sufficient measures must be taken to ensure that those who ARE illegal can NOT continue to have such an effect. As much as I may agree that these people have economic difficulties of their own and that they have come to the U.S. to try to overcome those difficulties, that does not change the fact that they could have and should have done things legally so that they will not continue to sap resources from law-abiding citizens who genuinely need them.
S3nd K3ys
Nice view of the situation.

In particular;

Traveller wrote:

If the economy IS greatly affected, it simply means that politicians (of ALL political parties) have pooh-poohed the problem long enough and that enough immigrants have continued breaking the law that sufficient measures must be taken to ensure that those who ARE illegal can NOT continue to have such an effect. As much as I may agree that these people have economic difficulties of their own and that they have come to the U.S. to try to overcome those difficulties, that does not change the fact that they could have and should have done things legally so that they will not continue to sap resources from law-abiding citizens who genuinely need them.


...very straight forward and to the point.

I'd also like to say that, while I support Bush on several important issues, he has clearly and irresponsibly dropped the ball on this one big time. Remember what happened last time we had an 'amnisty' program? We went from 3-4 million illegals to well over 10 million illegals. Great plan, guys! Rolling Eyes
ChaosMike
I live almost 2 blocks away from the whole protest in L.A. You could see them walking all around where I lived. All the traffic around was horrible and almost impossible to get out of.

To my friends that don't live nearby were overjoyed today in telling me the freeways were empty yesterday and said how easy it was to get around places. Lucky them.

I don't think the economy was affected to a point of which they wanted it to be affected. I honestly think this will whiplash against their cause. It might have looked all nice with all the American flags waving on TV, but those guys don't care at all about helping out America, of course not all are like that.

Wink
S3nd K3ys
ChaosMike wrote:
I live almost 2 blocks away from the whole protest in L.A. You could see them walking all around where I lived. All the traffic around was horrible and almost impossible to get out of.


It was like that near the border here in San Diego. Even worse on the Mexico side.

Quote:

To my friends that don't live nearby were overjoyed today in telling me the freeways were empty yesterday and said how easy it was to get around places. Lucky them.


It was awsome here, so I can imagine how it was in LA. There's traffic in LA at freakin midnight! Like I said, too bad we don't get more days without illegal immigrants!
Hobbit
Haha yeah the traffic was awesome here too. Usually I take like 20 minutes to get to school, and it only took me 5. Cool
Vrythramax
[quote="damj"]
Vrythramax wrote:
Quote:
From mighty meatpacking plants to tiny taco stands, U.S. businesses are making plans to deal with Monday's nationwide pro-immigration boycott, which could keep millions of people away from their jobs.

Contingency plans range from juggling schedules to hiring temporary workers to closing down altogether, companies say.

Organizers say millions of immigrants and their supporters will participate in the demonstrations, scheduled to protest legislation that would declare illegal immigrants felons and erect a fence along much of the U.S.-Mexico border. Such job actions could close down several major cities, they say.


Ah ... that explains why my kids (adopted from Russia and Guatemala) didn't want to get up this morning. d'oh! Laughing


I take it they didn't get away with it. Very Happy

It seems that "Walk Out" was a total bust for them (the illegal aliens that is...not your kids damj)...they are lucky the Immigration Officials and the US Marshals Service didn't raid the event and ship a whole bunch of them back....while they had them all in one place. Twisted Evil
Soulfire
Nothing happened in my area, a couple of local business were closed, but nothing to turn heads. This is pointless in my opinion. I know immigrants contribute to our country, but that is NOT the issue. They came in here illegally (not all of them), which means, breaking the law. Sorry, but the law doesn't (or shouldn't) bend, extend, break, be twisted, or change for anyone, immigrants included. If you want to come to this country, do it legally so we do not have to think about legislation like the current legislation that is being protested.
Soulfire
I've stated my position before, and I'll state it again. This is STUPID. They are marching around, screaming, and shouting loudly. They are waving the flags of the very country they wanted to get out of... and now we don't like them even more.

If you want to come to this country, do it legally, the law doesn't change or bend for people. Sorry to burst your bubble. If you would do it legally, we wouldn't have to secure the borders, and we wouldn't have to discuss the current legislation that is also being protested. We'd just be a better place.
Vrythramax
@Soulfire

I agree totally. I think what thier problem is is that they have lived in our country for so long, and enjoyed the freedoms we offer our [legal] citizens, they have forgotten that those rights they are now abusing are not thier's in the first place.

It has been said that if you live a lie long enough, you will begin to believe it yourself. They should have raided the place...just my 2 cents worth.
diverden
I think we should all take the day off since we are a nation of immigants, other than the Native Americans. As someone who is familiar with education I understand the making history argument but for people who are here illegally to demand rights that they don't have just because they did not get caught breaking the law is absurd. That is like sneaking into a movie and then complaining because you don't like what they are playing. When the dropout rate for immigrants is over 50% perhaps the time could have been better spent in school or teaching their parents to speak/read English. It is amazing to me that all of these people want to be given citizenship but many of them have been in the US for 5-10-15 years and can't speak English. When I travel to foreign countries, it is often in Spanish speaking countries. I do not expect them to print documents in English, or speak English or give me my driver's test in English or accommodate me in any way ( I am a guest, a legal guest, in their country!). I am in their country where the native language is Spanish and I have to learn to communicate with them. When they come here, we have to accomodate them in schools, hospitals, driving, restaurants, stores, etc,,, and yet somehow we are being unfair because we do not change our national language to spanish and sing the national anthem in Spanish. Maybe the pledge of allegiance should be bilingual too!!!
xalophus
S3nd K3ys wrote:
xalophus wrote:
What has skin colour got to do with it ?


According to (mainly illegal) immigrants (who are mainly mexican), ANYONE who thinks the US borders should be secured are racists.

Oh ! but you are being one, aren't you ?
But you're self righteous enough to deny that.

You didn't answer my other two questions, by the way.

I'm yet to understand why (mostly white) people tend to characterize countries by the degree of skin pigmentation. There are white people in Africa and Asia, and black in America and Europe.
Thus "Pink slips for the illegal mexican immigrant 2K6" becomes "pink slips for teh brown man 2K6".
I hope you understand the difference between the two "slogans".

You'd be right in making that statement, if only illegal Mexican immigrants were brown skinned.


Perhaps you're not aware that a good number of American citizens are brown (or should I say non-white) as well? Rolling Eyes
springbok
though I do not live in the USA I am an immigrant in the UK. Daily I have to put up with people being rude and downright nasty to me. No matter what the skin colour just the fact that I have a foreign accent is enough to warrant the mis-treatment.

I disagree with the action these immigrants in the US are taking. If they are lookin for acceptance then this is the wrong way to go about it. This will only reassure the "locals" that the foreigners are no good and are only looking out for their own interests instead of those of the country as a whole.

This action is doing them no favours and I hope that that idea does not spark off in the UK, as I will not participate in such senceless "vandalism". There is no good reason why there should be ill feelings from either side, if someone is in the country legally they should pull their finger and get on with things.

Just my 5 cents.
damj
[quote="Vrythramax"]
damj wrote:
Vrythramax wrote:
Quote:
Organizers say millions of immigrants and their supporters will participate in the demonstrations, scheduled to protest legislation that would declare illegal immigrants felons and erect a fence along much of the U.S.-Mexico border. Such job actions could close down several major cities, they say.


Ah ... that explains why my kids (adopted from Russia and Guatemala) didn't want to get up this morning. d'oh! Laughing


I take it they didn't get away with it. Very Happy


Laughing No ... they didn't. I believe in Democracy, just not with my kids ... Very Happy
S3nd K3ys
xalophus wrote:


Oh ! but you are being one, aren't you ?
But you're self righteous enough to deny that.


No, I'm not being one, I am responding to being called one by most people calling for open borders. If anything I would consider myself racist to a degree against radical Islamists, but again, I have several friends that are Iraqi and 2 that are Iranian.

I've lived among (and as a) minority all my life. Most of my best friends are people of color or 'different' sexual orientation. I can easily and unoffensively joke with them about their ethnicity and their homo-tendicitis. It's not my fault the majority of illegals coming across the border are Mexican, but I'm damn sure not going to deny that fact. And I'm not going to try to sugar coat the fact that the VAST majority of idiots doing this are a) brown and b) breaking the law.

Now back to the topic...

Let us see what our health care system would be like without an overcrowed emergency room full of illegal immigrants using it as a free clinic to treat non-emergent ailments. Let us see what it would be like to have people from whom the hospital actually expects to pay for treatment. I wonder if the costs for health insurance would drop?


Let us see what it would be like to reduce the size of our classrooms. Let us see what it would be like to have to spend taxpayer dollars to teach in English only. Let us see if our schools test score averages increase.


Let us see what it would be like to not be victimized by an illegal immigrant and then have to pay for the incarceration of that illegal immigrant. The Los Angeles County Jail system would be alleviated of thousands of inmates. Those incarcerated might actually do 100% of their sentences rather than the 10% that they have been doing.


Let us see what our highways would be like. Let us see if traffic is reduced without their presence. Let us see if the number of unlicensed, uninsured, unqualified motorists drops and the number of traffic collisions also drops proportionately. Maybe our car insurance rates would see a decrease as a result.

Maybe the May 1st "Day Without an Immigrant" boycott should be encouraged so the rest of the legal citizens can fully appreciate what benefits and burdens illegal immigration creates.
shr3dd
First of all, stop calling them illegal immigrants. They are not immigrants, they are ALIENS. Immigrants are people who come here legally and want to assimilate. These illegals do not want to be Americans, they do not want to be a part of our culture. They expect to be able to come here illegally, avoid taxes, and rape us of our social services. They do not do jobs Americans won't, they do it for cheaper so certain business owners illegally hire them instead of Americans to save a buck.

Keep standing in front of Home Depot and demand amnesty, go ahead. How do these people expect to break our laws, cheat our system, refuse our national language and then expect us to just grant them amnesty? Since 1990 25 million illegal aliens have migrated from Mexico into the US.

This needs to stop. We need to put outrageous fines in place for those who hire illegals. We need to seize the money they try to send back to their relatives in Mexico and we need to make them want to go back. A massive deportation won't work. Vicente Fox would deny permission for us to take them back and the left would have a hissy fit anyway.

I might be alone here, but I'm sick of having to see everything I read on signs and at Mcdonald's in spanish too. If you're here, learn our language, and if you're here illegally, get the F out.
Soulfire
shr3dd wrote:
First of all, stop calling them illegal immigrants. They are not immigrants, they are ALIENS. Immigrants are people who come here legally and want to assimilate. These illegals do not want to be Americans, they do not want to be a part of our culture. They expect to be able to come here illegally, avoid taxes, and rape us of our social services. They do not do jobs Americans won't, they do it for cheaper so certain business owners illegally hire them instead of Americans to save a buck.

According to Webster, the definition of 'immigrant' is: a person who comes to a country to take up a permanent residence. Nowhere does it say anything about being legal, but that's just how I look at it. According to Webster, the word 'illegal' means: not according to or authorized by law. Put them together to form the term 'illegal immigrant' and you get a definition of something like this: a person who unlawfully has a permanent residence within a country. The rest of your statement I agree on.

shr3dd wrote:
Keep standing in front of Home Depot and demand amnesty, go ahead. How do these people expect to break our laws, cheat our system, refuse our national language and then expect us to just grant them amnesty? Since 1990 25 million illegal aliens have migrated from Mexico into the US.

Also agreed. It seems pretty far-fetched that after breaking our laws they expect us to forgive them.

shr3dd wrote:
This needs to stop. We need to put outrageous fines in place for those who hire illegals. We need to seize the money they try to send back to their relatives in Mexico and we need to make them want to go back. A massive deportation won't work. Vicente Fox would deny permission for us to take them back and the left would have a hissy fit anyway.

What do you know? I also agree! The people who hire illegals are breaking the law just as the illegals are, and both should be punished. My father suggested a mass deportation, but in all honesty, that would be more trouble and consume more resources than the benefits of it. Then we'd be entanged in another stupid affair that we didn't need to be. So, massive deportation really isn't an option.

shr3dd wrote:
I might be alone here, but I'm sick of having to see everything I read on signs and at Mcdonald's in spanish too. If you're here, learn our language, and if you're here illegally, get the F out.

Apparently you're not alone, I'm in agreement with you.
Vrythramax
I am in total agreement with the both of you. I have trouble believing the audacity of these criminals complaining about anything at all. If I were a bank robber the last thing in the world I would do is go public and complain about a new banking regulation that made it harder for me to rob banks.

This entire concept is completely absurd. Have any of you heard any of the public arguements thier spokesperson has come accross with? To say they are laughable is a gross understatement. I have absolutly no problem with people immigrating to the US, my parents immigrated here from Ireland, but they did it legally. I can even accept immigrants not learning (what should be) the national langauge...as long as they go through the motions of obtaining, at the very least, a green card....and then apply for citizenship.
DeFwh
that whole day was kinda bad for mexicans because it kinda makes em' stand out. Also mexicans is the sterotypical immigrant. there are immigrants for all places including europe and africa
springbok
S3nd K3ys wrote:
PINK SLIPS FOR TEH BROWN MAN 2K6!!!1
Laughing Laughing Laughing


How about this ...

All people living in America apart from the native american indians leave and give the country to the natives. Don't you think that they have been oppressed long enough?" You bunch of scummy Irish and russian and all other types of immigrants.

Pinks slips for the pale face, black man, brown man, yellow man and everyone else who is not the RED man.
STGwebsite
What I find very interesting is the fear that so many people seem to have for other races. I mean: not so much for other people personally (well, they may, but they don't talk about it as much) but for groups of people like: immigrants, muslims, natives, blacks... you name it and people seem to have a genuin fear for them. Strange, cause in the end we are not that different from each other. We are all humans and we all share the same feelings and anxieties. It is trough others that we are influenced in believing that different color or different background means different person. I have lived in many countries, including the USA, Asia and Europe. I have the dutch nationality and was born and raised between many cultures. What I see is a world divided by the concept of race and color. An idea that was put in to their minds by other people. I am sorry to see that so many people let themselves be influenced by these idea's of different 'classes' of people.

This world could be a paradise, if only we would learn to share...

As far as illegal immigrants are concerned. The whole idea of borders and immigration is rediculous and should be converted into a worldwide system without a global government.
S3nd K3ys
springbok wrote:
S3nd K3ys wrote:
PINK SLIPS FOR TEH BROWN MAN 2K6!!!1
Laughing Laughing Laughing


How about this ...

All people living in America apart from the native american indians leave and give the country to the natives. Don't you think that they have been oppressed long enough?" You bunch of scummy Irish and russian and all other types of immigrants.

Pinks slips for the pale face, black man, brown man, yellow man and everyone else who is not the RED man.


How about this.... what part of ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION don't you understand?

FACT is: well over 90% of illegals coming in the US from the southern border are, (ready for this????) LATINOS! (psst, most latinos are, umm, brown) Shocked

And who has been 'oppressed long enough'?? The ILLEGALS? No, they've been given free reign. But it's about time they were stopped.
springbok
S3nd K3ys wrote:
springbok wrote:
S3nd K3ys wrote:
PINK SLIPS FOR TEH BROWN MAN 2K6!!!1
Laughing Laughing Laughing


How about this ...

All people living in America apart from the native american indians leave and give the country to the natives. Don't you think that they have been oppressed long enough?" You bunch of scummy Irish and russian and all other types of immigrants.

Pinks slips for the pale face, black man, brown man, yellow man and everyone else who is not the RED man.


How about this.... what part of ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION don't you understand?

FACT is: well over 90% of illegals coming in the US from the southern border are, (ready for this????) LATINOS! (psst, most latinos are, umm, brown) Shocked

And who has been 'oppressed long enough'?? The ILLEGALS? No, they've been given free reign. But it's about time they were stopped.


And at which native american immigration office/embassy did you or you non-native american forefather apply for the right to land on american soil? Can you show your immigration papers?

I understand full well what immigration is all about, being that I am a LEGAL immigrant where I now live.
S3nd K3ys
springbok wrote:
S3nd K3ys wrote:
springbok wrote:
S3nd K3ys wrote:
PINK SLIPS FOR TEH BROWN MAN 2K6!!!1
Laughing Laughing Laughing


How about this ...

All people living in America apart from the native american indians leave and give the country to the natives. Don't you think that they have been oppressed long enough?" You bunch of scummy Irish and russian and all other types of immigrants.

Pinks slips for the pale face, black man, brown man, yellow man and everyone else who is not the RED man.


How about this.... what part of ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION don't you understand?

FACT is: well over 90% of illegals coming in the US from the southern border are, (ready for this????) LATINOS! (psst, most latinos are, umm, brown) Shocked

And who has been 'oppressed long enough'?? The ILLEGALS? No, they've been given free reign. But it's about time they were stopped.


And at which native american immigration office/embassy did you or you non-native american forefather apply for the right to land on american soil? Can you show your immigration papers?

I understand full well what immigration is all about, being that I am a LEGAL immigrant where I now live.


Oh. Well gee. I guess if you look at it that way, we're ALL immigrants, because we ALL migrated to where we are now. (Except for that black chick in Africa they're calling "Eve" that has been genetically tested and found to be the original human from whence the rest of us came.)

Seriously, your point is invalid and immature. Please come up with a viable argument if you think the US should have even MORE open borders. Borders which, compared to the rest of the world's borders, are much more 'open' than most.

Btw,

Quote:
And at which native american immigration office/embassy did you or you non-native american forefather apply for the right to land on american soil?


The one where we traded that little plot in So Cal with the La Jolla Indian Tribe for some beeds and corn. Wink
AzTeK
well my personal opinion beign a Mexican immigrant in the USA, I do agree that some of the marchers where acting out of control but the fact is these have been the biggest marches in US history, and for only a few arrested I think that deserves respect, first of all the big question asked, Why don't they come here legally? People have no idea how hard it is to obtain a pass for the US its a process that can take from months to years, and the only people who can actually afford to get it are the immigrants who have money, for Mexicans this is even harder since Mexico has no benefits with the US about immigration, thing is how can you afford to come the the US legally, when you can't even survive in Mexico? bottom line is you don't have the money. Btw im sure everyone knows that USA - Washington is easaly the most corrupted place in the world, their just smarter at hiding it.
Even though I didn't agree with the school walk outs and neutral about the boycott I have to say protest like these have been happining since the USA was founded, it is a great country. Simply Latinos are going through what the Chinese, european and Japanese immigrants have been through.
The purpose of the boycott was to show the impact of immigrants in the US, because what some US officials are wanting to do is 'deport them all' this is completely obsurd, you can't possibly simply deport millions, and expect the US to be as powefull as it is. Immigrants do the work that most won't do, they are crucial to the economy, most will deny this. The fact is immigrants are severely under-paid, for example the farm pickers, get paid less than a dollar per bucket they fill up(Yes by bucket, not by the hour.) This is the type of work that no American would do, if you magically deport all immigrants then I guess Americans will have to pick the crops, but no one will do it for such low pay, so you raise the farm worker pay but now the owner needs to raise the price on his product, don't think anyone would like paying 4+ dollars for one apple...
When it comes down to it all that matters is money, US doesn't whant to give easy acess to legalization, because then all those immigrants who became legal would earn atleast minumun wage, and there would be less cheap labor.
Coming to the USA legally cost money, and all these people come to the USA because they have no money, how can you possibly expect them to come legally, kinda ironic no?. This is the same reasons all these 'immigrants' dont get on a plane and fly to europe and Canada.
Heh, you finally now what the Natives feel, when USA citizens call themselves 'American'...
Think About this-
Immigration is basicly the Labor Force wich every contry needs.
The cities with the most immigrants are the wealthiest, weird no? Just look at Cali, LA and compare it to 80 years ago.
Immigration is crucial, you can't deny this. Im' not saying open up all the borders and let everyone do what they whant, USA does need borders, it's a countries right to some form of protection.
Thanks to all the immigrants sons and daughters who are fighting for USA in Iraq and dying everyday, for a country that hates immigrants.
Vrythramax
To those who say legal immigration into America is too costly...then why aren't you trying to do something (anything) in your own country to make things better?

To those who say we, meaning non-native Americans (Indians) to show our papers...how about the purchase of Manhatten Island, The Luisianna (I know I misspelled it) Purchase, The purchase of Alaska...just to name a few? The entire world is full of immigrants, it's more a fact that your family may have been living in one place long enough that you yourself don't even realize where you really came from. Look to your own lineage before speaking out against anyone else.
The Philosopher Princess
It saddens me to realize that there are so many cruel and heartless people in the world.[%%] People who would tell a husband and father who wants to work very hard to feed his starving family that he must first pay $2,000 (that’s US Dollars; it’s more like $20,000 in Mexican Pesos) and then go on a waiting list for 10 to 12 years. These cruel and heartless people would rather make everybody in the country pay outrageous prices for farm produce (especially food), than to let that man earn a little money to support his family.

The fear of “illegal immigrants” or “wetbacks” is fueled by a bunch of lies, half-truths, and innuendoes. The economic impact of undocumented workers is almost entirely positive. For every one who receives “free” government services, there are 20 or so paying full employment taxes that they can never receive refunds for, paying into social security, paying sales taxes on everything they buy, paying taxes on every dollar sent by money order to Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, or wherever their families are living.

Moreover, most of the people spouting the racist venom don’t seem to know the history involved, either in regards to the creation and changing of the borders, nor the history or meaning of the laws and regulations.

For the record, the United States of America was founded on land mostly stolen from the Native American tribes. Russell Means, a famous Sioux (whom I have met and heard speak) says that his people had a defective immigration policy. “We should’ve sent those European boat people back to where they came from,” he has often said.

Manhattan Island is famous for having been “bought from the Indians”. Yet, that wasn’t a contractual sale between willing buyer and willing seller who both understood the contract. The natives didn’t believe in land ownership and thought the deal was to allow the whites to hunt and build a village, not take the land and deny the natives the ancient “right” of using it.

The Louisiana Purchase was a case where the USA bought a huge chunk of land from the French (Napoleon) who had seized it as a prize of war from the Spanish, who were granted it by the Pope, when it was inhabited by thousands of natives who knew nothing about the deals being made to steal their birthright. What a great example of large-scale civilized theft!

The Alaska Purchase, likewise, was a deal between the governments of the USA and Russia, to transfer “ownership” of the lands of the Inuit (and other tribes) in exchange for gold mined in California.

California (along with Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, etc.) had been stolen from the natives by Spanish “missionaries” who enslaved the natives, forcing them to work the mines and fields for the Spaniards. Then the land was taken from the new nation of Mexico (after the Mexican Revolution threw out the Spanish and French), by the USA, as spoils of war (except for the sliver of land known as the Gadsden Purchase, which was bought after the war).

So, it seems that most or all of the land currently known as the United States of America was originally stolen, and its native owners were enslaved, corralled into reservations, cheated, and killed if they objected.

Doesn’t that make you feel self-righteous when you deny people of native ancestry the privilege of crossing “the border” to find work?
____________________
[%%] Note that, while I disagree with those who use short-sighted “reasoning” as an excuse to close the border (typically associated with “neocons”), I am also not a “bleeding heart liberal”. One need only to read some of my political philosophy posts to know that my philosophy is very different from the modern socialist/liberal political position. I do not support socialized medicine, socialized education, socialist politics, social welfare, nor the Ponzi scheme called social security. I reject the notion that people have any inalienable duties to take care of other people, and I reject the silly notion that an economy can operate efficiently without a profit motive.
Vrythramax
Princess...

I can't find words to reply....you shame me once again. Sad
The Philosopher Princess
Vrythramax wrote:
Princess...

I can't find words to reply....you shame me once again. Sad

Thank you for being honest in sharing your feelings.

When I have a chance, I will write up and post here what it really means to be “illegal”, as opposed to the way many people misunderstand it.
S3nd K3ys
I don't have time to pick apart your thread as much as it deserves to be picked apart, so I'll stick with the basics.

The Philosopher Princess wrote:
It saddens me to realize that there are so many cruel and heartless people in the world.


Would it sadden you also if, instead of illegals coming into the country, it was neighbors coming into your house and taking your food, sleeping in your bed, taking your money etc? The USA has a right to do what ever the hell it wants with it's borders.


Quote:
The fear of “illegal immigrants” or “wetbacks” is fueled by a bunch of lies, half-truths, and innuendoes.


I live with it every single day. They're not lies. They're NOT half-truths. Fact is, what you hear on the news is very little compared to how much damage they're really doing.

On a side note, that "day off" they had cost about a 4% decrease in sales that day. It also caused about a 64% DECREASE in shoplifting, and a very marked improvement on the commute to/from work, and the number of accidents.

I wish they'd do it more often.

Quote:
Moreover, most of the people spouting the racist venom don’t seem to know the history involved, either in regards to the creation and changing of the borders, nor the history or meaning of the laws and regulations.


The people shouting racist are the ILLEGALS. Not the people here legally. Don't try to spin that around. Pay attention if you honestly don't know.


Quote:
For the record, the United States of America was founded on land mostly stolen from the Native American tribes.


So? The land you're ALL on was stolen from some tribe. People have been steeling land as long as they've been 'owning' it.

Poor excuse, lame example.

Quote:

Note that, while I disagree with those who use short-sighted “reasoning” as an excuse to close the border (typically associated with “neocons”), I am also not a “bleeding heart liberal”.


Short sighted? You really need to research a bit more before you stick your foot in your mouth again. The very fact that the long term ramifications (which are now starting to take effect on a massive scale), of ILLEGAL immigration are being dismissed by the President is short sighted in and of itself. It's irresponsible. So are those that think the US should just open it's borders to anyone and everyone that wants to come here. What does your country do with it's borders? Can I just walk in, get a job and become a citizen with no processing, no waiting and no limitations?

Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
Center for Immigration Studies wrote:


Illegals Cost Feds $10 Billion a Year; Amnesty Would Nearly Triple Cost
...
Among the findings:

* Illegal alien households are estimated to use $2,700 a year more in services than they pay in taxes, creating a total fiscal burden of nearly $10.4 billion on the federal budget in 2002.
* Among the largest federal costs: Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion).
* If illegal aliens were legalized and began to pay taxes and use services like legal immigrants with the same education levels, the estimated annual fiscal deficit at the federal level would increase from $2,700 per household to nearly $7,700, for a total federal deficit of $29 billion.
* With nearly two-third of illegals lacking a high school diploma, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments � not their legal status or their unwillingness to work.
* Amnesty increases costs because illegals would still be largely unskilled, and thus their tax payments would continue to be very modest, but once legalized they would be able to access many more government services.
* The fact that legal immigrants with little schooling are a fiscal drain on federal coffers does not mean that legal immigrants overall are a drain. Many legal immigrants are highly skilled.
* Because many of the costs are due to their U.S.-born children, who are awarded U.S. citizenship at birth, barring illegals themselves from federal programs will not significantly reduce costs.
* Although they create a net drain on the federal government, the average illegal household pays more than $4,200 a year in federal taxes, for a total of nearly $16 billion.
* However, they impose annual costs of more than $26.3 billion, or about $6,950 per illegal household.
* About 43 percent, or $7 billion, of the federal taxes illegals pay go to Social Security and Medicare.
* Employers do not see the costs associated with less-educated immigrant workers because the costs are spread out among all taxpayers.



Research, and especially EDUCATION, are your friend.
smalls
TPP,

I always enjoy your posts. They are refreshing and honest, and I seldom disagree.

I think I mostly agree with you on this issue as well. However, I sense that a system of fully "open" borders presents not only a security risk, but a financial one as well.

Any law abiding citizens of any country should be welcome here, without restrictions on the quantity. However, we also need to know who these people are to prevent dangerous criminals from entering our country, and for purposes of taxation.

I think if we made it easier for people to come here legally, it would be easier for us to catch the ones coming here illegally….since there would be less of an incentive to come through illegal means.

Again, thanks for your consistently honest and refreshing posts!
CrookedBlaze
I live in San Diego and the HIGH SCHOOLS were protesting. Seriously, 99 % of the kids havn't come to school. And about half of those arn't Mexican.
S3nd K3ys
CrookedBlaze wrote:
I live in San Diego and the HIGH SCHOOLS were protesting. Seriously, 99 % of the kids havn't come to school. And about half of those arn't Mexican.


Yeah, the kids out of school. Rolling Eyes

If I was still in school and someone said they were going to have a walk-out, I'd go no matter what it was for either. Wink

I've talked with several people in several (non-border) states, and the vast majority have said that 90% of the people taking off work were Mexican.

http://www.uscis.gov wrote:

Mexico is the leading source country of undocumented immigration to the United States. In October 1996 an estimated 2.7 million undocumented immigrants from Mexico had established residence here (See Table 1). Mexican undocumented immigrants constituted about 54 percent of the total undocumented population. The estimated population from Mexico increased by just over 150,000 annually in both the 1988-92 and 1992-96 periods.

Although undocumented immigrants come to the United States from all countries the world, relatively few countries add substantially to the population. The annual growth of the undocumented population can be grouped into four disparate categories: 1) Mexico, with more than half of the annual growth, adds just over 150,000 undocumented residents each year; 2) six countries--El Salvador, Guatemala, Canada, Haiti, Honduras, and the Bahamas--each add between 6,000 and 12,000 annually; 3) thirteen countries each add about 2,000 to 4,000 annually; and 4) the remaining approximately 200 other countries add a total of about 30,000 undocumented residents each year (See Table 1). A large majority of the additions each year, more than 80 percent, are from countries in the Western Hemisphere.




(Side note:) Are you aware that 40% of all jails/prisons in the US are filled up with illegals? Shocked
S3nd K3ys
CNN posted up some emails from people. Here's one...

Linda Weldon Willits, California wrote:
I would ask both the illegals here now and the ones caught crossing the border one question: If we allow you to stay in the U.S., will you be willing to send your children to Iraq and fight and, yes, maybe die for your new country? Americans are willing to fight for our freedom. Are you? If the answer is yes, then draft their children now while their parents stay and learn English.


Laughing Laughing Laughing
The Philosopher Princess
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
{References}


Herein, I reference 2 groups’ studies. The groups’ names are similar, but they are vastly different. I color-code the names to try to help readers keep them straight.

1. Center for Immigration Studies (CIS) was quoted on this thread but no link was offered. I found the quoted text at http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalrelease.html.

2. The Center for Comparative Immigration Studies (CCIS) has a 71-page report I quote at http://www.ccis-ucsd.org/PUBLICATIONS/wrkg129.pdf.

3. Also, I recommend that anyone here who hasn’t already done so might want to read the following Frihost thread: Are politicians good sources for science? (Greenhouse Myth). Though about a different specific topic, it is about the same overall subject of putting too much faith in organizations that have a political agenda, rather than looking for valid science.

Note: “IRCA” (inside a quote below) is an acronym for “Immigration Reform and Control Act”.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
{Not all “studies” are equally valid}


There are a lot of misleading “studies” in the political world. Such so-called studies have been used to scare politicians and the public into supporting every political boondoggle from drug wars to welfare programs.

Statistics don’t lie. But liars use statistics. Organizations with a political agenda will often use just those statistics that support their positions, leaving out whatever does not fit their agenda. This is not real science. Its purpose is to warp the public’s perception of reality. They then rely on the people they dupe with the studies to spread the misperceptions.

To get reliable data one needs to look to reliable sources.

First, we will look at one example of how organizations with political agendas can use warped “studies” to affect public opinion and political rulemaking. As said, statistics from this study were posted on this thread earlier.

Second, we will look at some findings from a more scientific study on the same subject. There are many such studies available online from educational sites -- easy to find, but sometimes difficult to digest.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
{Errors and omissions of a politically charged “study”}


The Center for Immigration Studies (CIS), a political think tank created to give credibility to the agenda of FAIR (an anti-immigration organization with ties to white supremacists) is better at getting press coverage than at providing useful scientific studies. Its studies are used to bolster anti-immigration arguments on Capitol Hill. While they are widely reported by the media (and thus often come to the attention of the public), they are not taken seriously by most serious social scientists, especially those who study immigration issues. A quick web search found numerous critiques pointing out discrepancies in the CIS study, and some complaining about the media’s gullibility in presenting such a one-sided coverage of it.

Some of the errors and omissions of the most recent CIS study include leaving out many of the benefits that illegal immigrants provide to society, and ignoring large payments to the government, such as sales tax and unreclaimed social security tax they pay under false SS numbers. From The Center for Comparative Immigration Studies:

CCIS wrote:
The Social Security Administration holds contributions with invalid names or Social Security numbers in what is known as the Earnings Suspense File. Since the late 1980’s, when IRCA went into effect, annual inflows into the Earnings Suspense File have soared, rising from $7 billion in 1986 to $49 billion in 2000. As of 2003, the Earnings Suspense File contained $463 billion in contributions (Council of Economic Advisors, 2005).

Real studies, done by scientists at universities, have shown that there is a slight negative difference between what illegal immigrants pay in direct taxation and what illegal immigrant families receive in benefits. However, this discrepancy is so small that few people would care about it from an economic point of view, especially if they balance it against the benefits of lower-priced food and services that benefit people across the board. (Also, there is a lot less of a “drain” from illegal immigrants than from native-born welfare recipients.)

But, CIS needed something more provocative to get the attention of the media, the public, and congress in order to pass its agenda of more immigration restrictions and enforcement. So, it left out many of the payments made by illegal immigrants and added extra costs that are not caused by the immigrants. For instance, the entire cost of the extremely expensive operations of the border enforcement agencies is included as if it were welfare for immigrants.

Any rational person would have to conclude that immigrants do not apply for border patrol “assistance” nor benefit from border enforcement. The cost of border enforcement is the fault of politicians who vote for it and special interest groups who pressure them to. By including this, along with various other “costs” that are due to enforcement, rather than due to immigration, the Center for Immigration Studies was able to warp the statistics to seem as if there were a large economic drain.

If you, the reader of this post, would like an exercise in discovering errors and omissions in “studies” purported to be scientific, you might enjoy reading the CIS study thoroughly, and determining for yourself what data is misrepresented, what should be included but is not, and what is included though not relevant to the issue. Then do the same sort of analysis on other “studies” for fun and education.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
{Some REAL research on the same subject}


The Center for Comparative Immigration Studies, University of California, San Diego, is a real scientific organization that awards advanced degrees for good research, and subjects research papers to peer review and analysis rather than issuing press releases. There is a lot of valuable data on its website.

The below quotes are from “Why Does Immigration Divide America?: Public Finance and Political Opposition to Open Borders” by Gordon H. Hanson, UCSD and National Bureau of Economic Research. (This 71-page report is heavily footnoted with statistics from other studies and respected data sources.)

CCIS wrote:
It is a common misperception that illegal immigrants do not make contributions to tax revenues. Illegal immigrants pay sales taxes on their consumption purchases and property taxes on dwellings they own or rent. In addition, many illegal immigrants contribute to Social Security and to federal income taxes.
CCIS wrote:
On net the economic impact of immigration on the United States appears to be small.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
{The problem is the welfare state -- not immigration}


In studies of illegal immigration and welfare, it is apparent that the problem isn’t with immigration, but with the welfare state. The welfare system is a drain on the economy and a disincentive to productive work. (The larger the welfare system of a country, the more dysfunctional its economy, because of its redistribution of people’s earnings, and the further away it is from a flourishing free market economy.) Welfare hurts the people who pay for it, and hurts the people who collect the “benefits” even more. Blaming illegal immigrants (or blacks or the poor or anybody else) for the failures of the welfare state is unfair and shows incomprehension of the big picture.

CCIS wrote:
More low-income people tend to exacerbate distortions associated with welfare policies, which is why Milton Friedman has declared, “It’s just obvious that you can’t have free immigration and a welfare state.”

Some of the people who agree with Friedman take the blame-the-victims route by working against free immigration, while other people who agree with him work to eliminate the much more fundamental problem: The Welfare State.

(Milton Friedman is a Nobel-prize winning economist whose works I recommend reading.)

If a country operates with a true free market, open borders for both goods and people are beneficial. The main reason for our current mess is that government interferes in the economy by restricting trade and immigration, taxing, subsidizing some industries and punishing others, and generally using political power to try to control the economic laws of nature.

CCIS wrote:
In an economy without distortions associated with market failure or public-policy interventions, the optimal immigration policy would be to have open borders. The logic of free trade is symmetric to the logic of free immigration. Both contribute to the equalization of goods’ and factor prices across borders, which is necessary for economic efficiency and help create the conditions for global welfare to be maximized. Barriers to either the movement of goods or of factors lead to inefficient outcomes and leave gains from trade unexploited. Such barriers tend to cause labor-abundant countries, such as Mexico, to have low wages for labor and high relative prices for capital-intensive goods and capital-abundant countries, such as the United States, to have high wages for labor and high relative prices for labor-intensive goods. In theory, it is possible to achieve efficiency either through free trade or through free immigration...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
{Conclusion}


Prior to 1924, the United States of America had a free immigration policy, but it was never completely successful at implementing free trade. Yet the USA out-produced every country in the world and became the strongest country economically (and militarily) partly because of the industriousness of immigrants and having fewer restrictions on trade than most other nations.

Opening up the borders to really free trade and immigration would help to solve a lot of the economic problems of the USA. But a lot of other government interference problems need to be solved also. These include the welfare state, war economy of the military industrial complex, tax addiction of government, failing education monopoly, and all sorts of limitations on freedom of individuals who would otherwise be more productive.
S3nd K3ys
I'm not going to read that entire 4 volume set. (The colors give me a headache... Wink )

As far as the 'welfare state' being the problem, it's not.

The "welfare" provided by this country would be more than suffecient (even for a good number of ILLEGALS), if the ILLEGAL work force paid thier fair share.

But they're not. They're leaching from the system that supports them and their family. Hospitals are FORCED to treat these ILLEGALS without compensation.

Hospitals are closing all over the country because they can't afford to keep treating these leaches for free every time they get a cramp in their little toe or need a ride across town.

Schools are overcrouded with illegals, preventing citizens from getting the education they deserve.

Roads are packed with illegals causing accidents and not having insurance to pay for them.

The list of REAL EFFECTS of ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION is huge.
The Philosopher Princess
Sometimes it doesn’t matter, but other times it can be very helpful to know how a person sees themselves. We’ve been having such a discussion in a different context, concerning being a “Believer” or a “Not Believer” over here.

For our purposes here, I’d like to ask Mr. S3nd K3ys:

Are you a racist?
S3nd K3ys
The Philosopher Princess wrote:


For our purposes here, I’d like to ask Mr. S3nd K3ys:

Are you a racist?


Why do people always bring up race? It is such a sign of weakness. You're smarter than that, PP. You don't need to stoop to those levels. Shocked

Race has very little to do with it, except that the majority of ILLEGALS in Ca are Mexican.

I've lived next to the Mexican border all my adult life. About 75% of my friends are Mexican. About 15% of my friends are Negro. That leaves about 10% of my friends as 'other'.

So what was the question again? Rolling Eyes
The Philosopher Princess
(Not rainboxed, just for you. Smile)

S3nd K3ys wrote:
Why do people always bring up race?

If “people [are] always bring[ing] up race”, I would imagine that there is probably a very logical answer as to why. I wonder if there is something about your presentation to the world that triggers that thought in people. In any case, I would guess that you would be able to figure out the real answer if you wanted.
~~~~~~~~~~
Well, S3nd K3ys, I was hoping for a YES or NO answer from you -- but I can understand that you might not want to put on the record such a personal truth about yourself in an unambiguous form.

S3nd K3ys wrote:
I'm not going to read that entire 4 volume set. (The colors give me a headache... )

I know, and I’m truly sorry about that. If I had been writing mostly to you, I definitely would have refrained from any rainboxing. But, while I was partially inspired by you, I was actually writing to a larger audience. (Was it only 4 volumes? I was thinking it was more. Wink)
~~~~~~~~~~
You mentioned “hospitals” and “schools”, and you are absolutely right that they have some major problems, which are caused by people doing “bad” things. But your claim that illegal immigrants per se are the ones doing the bad things is incorrect.

You, S3nd K3ys, have read enough of my philosophy that you very likely could make a good guess at what MY answer would be about the REAL cause of these problems. We both know you’d be making a case that you don’t agree with, but “playing devil’s advocate” can be very helpful.

Since I am leaving town shortly, I would love for you to take a stab at explaining what I would say is the cause of the problems of hospitals and schools with regards to this context. I am serious. This is not any kind of trick. Your sincere and honest attempt at this will be greatly admired. And since I won’t be back till around the end of the month, you have plenty of time to post something on it. After I return, I will answer as well, and give you kudos where they are due.

(To all: I know I didn’t post my write-up on “illegal” yet. I’ll finish that later too.)
S3nd K3ys
The Philosopher Princess wrote:

...I would love for you to take a stab at explaining what I would say is the cause of the problems of hospitals and schools with regards to this context.


Let me get this straight... you want ME to explain what YOU think is the cause?? Laughing

I'll assume that's a typo. Wink

Shall I just provide facts, or do you want me to opine along with it?

As for your question, "Am I racist?"

No.

Not based on a person's race, color, country of origin etc.

BUT....

I will not close my eyes to the FACT that most illegals in this state ARE MEXICAN. Just as I'm not closing my eyes to the FACT that most terrorists ARE MUSLIM.

This is not an act of racism as I do not believe that I am genetically (or in any other way) better than anyone else based simply on their race.

It's their actions that dictate my feelings towards them.
The Philosopher Princess
Great! Thanks for answering the question directly! Smile

S3nd K3ys wrote:
The Philosopher Princess wrote:

...I would love for you to take a stab at explaining what I would say is the cause of the problems of hospitals and schools with regards to this context.


Let me get this straight... you want ME to explain what YOU think is the cause?? Laughing

I'll assume that's a typo. Wink

Even though I agree with you that it’s funny, you do have it straight and it’s not a typo. Pretend like my political philosophy is consistent and is based on principles. Similar to a science based on principles, if a person knows the principles, they can predict what will happen in a particular situation. You may not agree with my principles, but I believe you can detect them if you want to, and thus you can predict what my answer would be.

S3nd K3ys wrote:
Shall I just provide facts, or do you want me to opine along with it?

As much as you can do. The more the merrier! I believe you are capable of performing more than you think you are. Smile
~~~~~~~~~~
By the way, I’m PMing you a 100% non-rainboxed version of my >=4 set volume (the long post above). Now you won’t get color-induced headaches from reading it, and you have no more excuses for not reading it. Smile See you when I get back.
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