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The Israeli-Palestinian conflict





itarlo
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3242563,00.html

regarding this article I would like to tell you about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, from a Israeli point of view.

Quick summery of the history of the conflict:
After WWII Jews surviving the holocaust gathered in Israel to form a nation for the jewish people. Afetr the Natzi's murdered 6 million of our people we've decuded - NO MORE. The holocost will not happen again and the jews will have safe haven to come to from all over the world. This is basicaly the Zionist idea. The british empire ended it's mandate in Israel in 1947 and the UN recognized the jewish nation on may 1948. This is the day the Israeli country was founded. Immediatly 5 Arab nations attacked the small jewish nation (600,000 people) in order to destroy Israel. Israel won the war.
After almost 20 years of non stop bloodsheding small attacks on Israel, Gamal Abdul Natzer - the leader of Egypt at that time - decided to close the sea gates of Israel. He had a dream to be the leader of the Arab nation and tried to do so by provoking israel. Israel had no choice and so started the 1967 war - the 6 day war - in which 4 arab nations attacked Israel. The Israeli airforce with all its might crushed the enemies armies and the israeli army invaded the west bank which was part of Jordan and the Gaza strip which was in control of Egypt. Israel Also has Conquered the stratigic Golan Heights from Syria and the sinai desert from Egypt.
Israel won this war and occupied these teretories. Many historians and Israelies see this as a pyrus victory - a victory which brought nothing but trouble. Many of the arabs who lived in the occupied areas started to flee, afraid of retaliation from the Israeli army. Moshe Dayan - the chief commander of the army - pleaded tham not to leave and promised no harm will be done to them.
In 1968 the PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization) was formed. One of its objectives was a total destruction of Israel. This is the first time in history when we hear about the palestinian people. Before the PLO they had Jordanian and Egyptian nationality.
on 1973 Natzer who felt humiliated by the defeat in the 6 day war ducided together with syria to eliminate Israel once and for all. On the holliest day to jews - Yom Kipur (attonment day) - The arab nations invaded once again to Israel. The Israeli army, surprized by the attack fought and had great losses but in the end of the war Israel remained with the smae borders as before the war. After this war israeli goverment decided that we need nuclear weapons and called the plan "Samsons Choice" meaning that only if there will be no other choice we will die toghether with our enemies.
On spring 1974 a fanatic jewish group formed the first setalment in the west bank. Although the official goverment policy was that the occupied areas will be returned to the arabs one day, some had delusions that we can occupy the teretories for ever and expand the jewish borders.
In 1979 Saadat - the new Egyptian leader came to Israel and signd a peace treaty with Israel. Israel gave back the Sinai Peninsulla to Egypt. in this agreament (which was signed in Camp David on US soil) Israel comited to find a solution for the Palestinian people and give them autoemancipation.
1988 - After feeling that no solution is possible, and seeing more and more setalments rising on Palestinian land, the palestininas started the "Intifada" - A rebelion agains Israel. During the Intifada civilians and kids throgh rocks at soldiers and setelers. when they didn't feel its enough the started sending suicide bombers who blew themeselvs in Israeli buses - killing inocent children and women. The bombings where organized and paid for by the PLO. The israeli inteligence wanted to do something and made the same mistake the Americns did with Ben Laden in Afganistan. The Israeli secret service helped to form the "Hammass" thinking it will be an opposing factor to the PLO and thus weakening the organization.
After Itzhak Rabin came to power in Israel, the prime minister had secret talks with PLO leader Yaser Arafat. In 1993 a peace aggreament was signed in Oslo between the PLO and Israel. both sides agread to stom the fighting and terrorism acts. the Israeli goverment promised not builed ant setelments untill a final agreament of the borders. Arafat caem to the West bank and became the president of the Palestinian authority. Meanwhile, not only the terror acts didn't stop, isral found proof that Arafat himself was involved in sending suiced bombers to Israel. between 1993 and 1995 the terroris attackes grw bigger nad bigger. At some time it became unberuble - almost everyday a suiced bombing in a bus, cafe, pubs. No Israeli felt safe. The Palestinain authority promised it will find the terrorist and convict them but actualy did nothing and even encourged them.
Ehud Barak, the new prime minister met Arafat in Camp David on the year 2000 with Clinton as a mediator. Barak Was willing to give 97% of the occupied teretories to Arafat and to leave the holly places in Jerusalem to an Internation independant authority. Arafat left the camp and never came back. He didn't agree to the nagotiations.
October 2000 - just before the Israeli elections, Ariel Sharon a member of the israeli parlament went to a visit to the tample mountain, the holliest place for jews and one of the holly places for Muslems. All hell broke loose - the third "Intifada" started. Now, the palestinians don't use stones and rocks any more but fire with weapons which Israel gave the authority to keep order. Again suicide bombers sheded inocent blood in the streets. The Israeli army retaliated with a pin point attacks on the terrorist organizations and leaders. The terrorists held people as a human shield and sometimes even Palestinian children died in these attacks. Israeli Goverment decides to built a concrete wall between us and the Palestinians to prevent terrorist entering Israel.
Summer 2005 - After no progress in discutions with the Palestinain authority and the caos there, Ariel sharon - the Israeli prome minister decides to go out of the Gaza strip and the army evacuates 10,000 setelers who lived there for almost 30 years.

The situation today:

Israel - There Are 7 milion people (jewish, Muslems, christians) living in Israel. 200,000 live in the west bank. Most of theme live there because of economic comfort and will leave peacefully if the goverment will evacuate them. about 10% (20,000) considered religiouse fanatics, who will fight (mostly pasively) against leaving the west bank. these fanatics are the source to all the trouble we have with Palestinians because they don't respect them and see them as enemies.

palestinian Authority - 3 milion palestinians live in the west bank and Gaza strip and some few milions (nobody knows exactly how many) live in other arab countries (some of them in refugee camps). 50% of the Palestinian population considered to be religiouse fanatic and supports terrorist acts against cevilians and inocent. The Parlament of the authority is ruled by the "HAMASS" who is in the list of terrorist organizations in the world. there is much caoss in the authority. There's a feeling of "every man to himself". Armed gangs roaming the streets an shooting each other. since it is almost immposible to infiltrate Israel the Palestinian organizations bombard almost every day and every hour civilians with missiles and rockets.
Israel will not seat and talk to the Hamass unless:
1- Stops the desire to destroy Israel and recognizes the Jewish need for a land.
2- Gathers all the weapons in the hands of the gangs and stops terrorism.


If you realy want to understand the basics of the conflict you should look at the map here and see how small Israel is. there are places where Israel is as nerrow as 10KM (6 miles).




Mistakes made in the past and today:


Israeli side:
1- Israel should have left the Palestinian teretories immedidatly after the 6 day war.
2- israeli goverment never should allowed people to setel in the occupied teretories. Today it's causing a big problem. for example: ARIEL is a big city in the middle of the wesy bank. It is almost impossible to evacuate it.
3- Israel should recognized the palestinian people long ago and started talking to the PLO much earlier.
4- Retaliating to every suicide bombing is not always the smatest move. Sometimes Israel should be more self controled and use its weapons less.
5- Israel helped to form the Hamass in prder to weaken the PLO but now has to eat its own sower fruits.

Palestinian side:

1- Terror and fighting should never be the first choice of action. The Palestinians seam to be in loved with the notion of death. it's like an industry of death that starts in the kindergarden where small children are educated to hate Israel and to die in order to kill as much Israelies as possible.
2- The Palestinian people should recognize the nead for Israel to excist in safe borders and in peace. it is not normal that every time Israel signs an agreament with the Palestinians they violate the agreament on the next day and start a new war.
3- Palestinians should care for their own economy and not depend on Israeli economy. We do not need Palestinian workers here and they should get their money in their own country.
4- Palestinian educational system should learn a bit from the Israeli system. Israelies are tought to respect the other and never hate the enemy. Even in the army there is a codec which every sioldier learns: Respect your enemy and don't hate him.

The differance between Palestinian people and Israeli People:
In the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict we can count 100's of suicide bombers from the Palestinian side and only 1 Israeli who shot palestinians (Also 2 murderrers that shot Israeli arabs). Where as we (the Israelies) condemn the murderer and are ashamed that he is one of us. the palesitinians encourge their young ones to take thair own lives and the lives of other inocent people. Every family of a SHAHID (Sacred man who kille dhimself in the name of JIHAD) recieve from the palestinian authority sum of money every month. The mothers of the SHAHID is praised by the people and generaly people see the SHAIHD as a hero. 50% of the palestinians think it is justified killing Israeli children and women in a terrorist attack. The common reaction to these things is that Israeli army bombs women and children as well - but it's not true. Israeli army doesn't attack random population. It pin points its attacks against specific people. The problem is that the Terrorists use civilians as an umbrella to protect themselves and sometimes civilians are killed in the action. Agian we regeret it and do not like when inocent Palestinians die. When a Israeli pilot drops a bomb he knows excactly who target is, where as a suiced bomber kills homself he wants to kill randomly as many inocent people as he can.
I'm not saying there aren't fanatics on our side but the number is no more than 2000 and they all watched closly by the police and the secret services. We bring them to justice when necesery. Not even one palestinian terrorist was brought to justice in the Palestinian authority.
Israelies think of the future and their children and economics. People here have aspirations for greater things. To make this country a Hi-tec and technological empire. We do not hate our naighbors and want peace - even with Iranians. The President of Iran is more than welcome any day to come to Israel. The palestinian people are occupied with the death factory they are building. Instead of thinking of the future they are engaged in making better missiles and bombs.

Few words about JERUSALEM:
Jerusalem is the capitol of Israel. Its the first time since the days of David that Jerusalem was declared as the nations capitol. All other nations that ruled this land never saw Jerusalem as an important city - not even the PAlestinians. Today the authority wants Israel to go out of Jerusalem and give it to them. This will never happen. No jew in the world will give Jerusalem to the Palestinians. The Holliest palce for jews - the tample mountain - i s in Jerualem. When jew pray they're facing to Jerusalem where as Muslem face to MECCAH and their botoms facing Jerusalem. Israel always kept the freedom of prayer and the option to all religions to go to their holly places in Jerusalem. All muslems in Israel can come and pray in EL AKTZA and it is forbidden not to give someone the chance to pray there. Unfortunatly we can't depend on our neighbors to do the same. Most chances that if we gove the holly places to the Palestinians this will be the last time we'll see them. Even today after giving the control the palestinians over RACHELS GRAVE they burnt it down after one day. Christians can't come anymore to Beithlehem bacause the palestinian authority can't garantee their safety.

Hope to hear usefull and polite remarks on this article I've wrote
polarBear
Simple but perhaps not so polite remarks:

a) Zionists, (people that fought for the creation of Israel as a country), not only defended terrorist actions but also actually commited terrorism more than once, with hundreds of deaths and no remorse or even a comment against it. The most reckoned case is the attack to the King David hotel, but there are a couple more I'll present later if I find them on the Net.

b) As for the palestinian's 'love for death' :
Let's imagine for a second that the UN gives control of the israeli territory to, let's say, Kurds. There's no real reason for that, but as the kurds have gone through an extensive genocide, it's decided that they will found Kurdistan in Israel as it is said by an arcane of them. Yes, it's all fiction, but follow me with this. The kurds have a really big and developed army, funded by the EU, and thousands of kurds come from everywhere to join their armies. They also allow the israelis to live in three or four places, but methodically slain their political leaders from time to time, collect their taxes, and act as their police.
Wouldn't Israel inhabitants call to the arms and fight for their territory AT ANY COST? Would they even CARE about slaying kids by knife to get their country back?

What I've presented is a really small summary of their point of view, but there's a lot to say, and I probably will edit and expand myself later.
r_y_e_20
i remember a passage from the Bible, i forgot the exact text and phrase. but according to what i recall, it says there that "there is trouble in Israel up to the present day" could this be in some way related to the unending tension between israelis and arabs?
Soulfire
Biblical prophecies of Israel have come true time and time again. But Bible aside, why can't they just create a Palestine, and recognize it as an Arab nation? Probably because the Arabs won't be satisfied, and want more and more...

But it's worth a try.
itarlo
first I would like to thank you for your reply. Some of the things you've wrote aren't correct:

polarBear wrote:
Zionists, (people that fought for the creation of Israel as a country), not only defended terrorist actions but also actually commited terrorism more than once, with hundreds of deaths.


Before the Israeli nation was formed there were 3 organizations: HAGANA, ETZEL & LECHII . The Two last ones commited terrorist acts (If I remmeber correctly 16 attacks) agianst Brithish soldiers only - not cevilians. The Great British empire ruled Palestine at the time and only british soldiers were present here. King David hotel was the headquorters of the British army in Jerusalem. On the 22 of July 1946 half an hour before the attack the ETZEL organization called the headquorters and the "Palestine Post" and informed them of a bomb. The british army didn't take the threat seriously and the bomb killed 91 people: 28 British, 41 Arabs, 17 Jews and 5 other guests in the hotel. 476 peopel were injured. The were more terrorist attacks on British soldiers but this is biggest and the most known one. BTW - The arabs in Palestine had their share of attacks on British army as well.

Quote:
and no remorse or even a comment against it
.

All the Jewish papers at the time condemned the attack and even today we see it as a dark chapter in our history. Nobody thinks these people were heros.

In 1948 when Israel was founded, Ben Gurion, the Israeli prime minister gave the odrer to dissarm all the organizations from weapons. The Etzel movment did not oblige and tried to bring weapons from Europe. The ALTELENA ship (which carried weapons) was fired upon and drowned by the order of Israeli goverment. We understood that the Israeli nation can have only one army and that was the end of the Gerilla fighting. Saddly - the Palestinian people haven't understood it yet.

Small anecdote: The head of the ETZEL movement was MENAHEM BEGIN. This same man made the peace treaty with SAADAT the leader of Egypt in 1979. BEGIN fullfilled the agreament to the last grain of sand. Which shows you that even Jewish "terrorist" comes to his sences and when the time for peace comes - he did it.

Quote:
As for the palestinian's 'love for death' :
Let's imagine for a second that the UN gives control of the israeli territory to, let's say, Kurds. There's no real reason for that, but as the kurds have gone through an extensive genocide, it's decided that they will found Kurdistan in Israel as it is said by an arcane of them. Yes, it's all fiction, but follow me with this. The kurds have a really big and developed army, funded by the EU, and thousands of kurds come from everywhere to join their armies. They also allow the israelis to live in three or four places, but methodically slain their political leaders from time to time, collect their taxes, and act as their police.
Wouldn't Israel inhabitants call to the arms and fight for their territory AT ANY COST? Would they even CARE about slaying kids by knife to get their country back?


There's a small glitch in this scenario. Firstely I would like to say that I do think the Kurds deserve their own land and country in KURDISTAN which is located on the border of Turkey and Iraq. I think theses people had suffered enough and need an autonomy and self rulling. Historically KURDISTAN is their own land and they should have it.
Historically, Israel is the mother land of Jews. We lived here for 4000 years. 2000 years ago the Roman Empire Exilled the jewish people from their land by force. Only few Jews remained in Israel. Jews had to roam from country to country, suffering anti-semitzm everywhere. In Russia POGROMS (An organized attack of the Kozaks on Jewish villeges) were held, In Spain on 1492 all jews had to leave the country or become christians and from 1939 to 1945, 6 million Jews were exterminated in the Holocaust in the name anti-senitizm. Till this day you'll find anti-semitic groups all over the world... and they still want to exterminate us. The only haven in the world where Jews can come to and not be affraid is Israel. Israel was founded after 2000 years of suffering when Jews came to their natural homeland. Palestine at that time was almost not populated and only few of the places Israeli land is today were Arab land before (I don't include th west bank as Israeli territory).
Israel has never slained or tortured methodicaly prisoners. There are very strict laws against torture. Any soldier or policeman knows that they will be brought to justice for breaking the law. The Palestinian prisoners held in Israel are treated with respect and get the best facilities. Some prisoners addmit that the conditions in the prisons are better than in their own houses. Never the less, imprissonment is bad and we would like to have as few as possible. Since the conditions are so good it is not a small burdon on the Israeli economy as well.
Israel has never taken or stole anything from the Palestinians - on the contrary: Israel collects shippments taxes and taxes for imported goods for the Palestinians and deliveres the taxes every month to the Palestinian authority, even today when the HAMASS is in power. The authority recieves its electricity and water from Israel and doesn't have to pay even one cent.
Regarding your last paragraph: NO - Jewish people will NEVER kill innocent children in a battle for freedom. This is not the way we do things. The most valueble thing jewish people have is the "Jewish brain" - and this is our "worst" weapon. We know that humanity comes before freedom and wars can be fought only againts armies and not cevilians.
odinstag
Some questions:

Is it true that Israel is segregated?

Is it true that it is illegal for a jew to marry a non-jew in Israel?

Is it true that you do not have to be a religious jew to be accepted, only an ethnic jewish person?

Is it true that only jews are allowed access to Israeli citizenship and rights?

Is it true that Israel commited terrorism against Americans?

If you answer no to any of these then you are a lier.

America had no enemies in the middle east till we accepted Israel as our only friend.
itarlo
odinstag wrote:
Is it true that Israel is segregated?


Not True - I think you're confusing Israel with Nebraska (You are from Nebraska - Aren't you?):

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,1754360,00.html

But seriously, This claim is one of the biggest lies that Palestinians spread all over the world. And now to the facts:
In Israel Proper (Not Gaza strip & the West bank) there are 7 million Israelies:
    5 million Jews, 1 million non-Arab Christians ,1 million Arabs (10% of them Christians) and a few thousends of non-Arab minorities: Druz, Cherckes and Somaritans.
Not only there is no segregation in Israel, in most cases the law favors the minority. For example: while it is mandatory for all Israelies (Man & Woman) to serve in the army for 3 years, arabs in Israel are not obligated to go to the army and can go volentarily. Israeli goverment understands that in times of war, mentaly, it will be almots imposible for arabs to fight their own brothers on the enemy side. While I've gave 3 years of my life to serve this country, my Arab friends (and I do have arab friends) studied in the University. We understand that, and non of their civil rights is being taken from them because of that.
Regarding the Palestinian population that lives in the Gaza strip and the West bank - they don't have Israeli citizenship and of course don't have the same rights like israelies. Similarly to the USA - Mexicans who come through the border illegaly don't have the same rights like Americans - naturaly.

Quote:
Is it true that it is illegal for a jew to marry a non-jew in Israel?


Not True - It is legal but tequnicaly impposible. Israeli marriege system is based on religiouse marriege and no rabbi,priest or quaddi will be willing to marry a jew and non Jew becasue it is not according to the Jewish/Christian/Muslim religion. Unfortunatly we do not have civilian marriege system but the goverment reconizes civil marriege from abroad. The solution is quiet simple: A jew and non jew who wish to get married, can go to Cyprus (40 minute flight) and get married there. This marriege will be recognized by Israel. I agree this is not the optimum situation and nowdays the secular parties in the Israeli parliament are processing a law that will give the option for civilian marriege.

Quote:
Is it true that you do not have to be a religious jew to be accepted, only an ethnic jewish person?

Is it true that only jews are allowed access to Israeli citizenship and rights?


Not True - All people born to Israeli parents in Israel get automatic citizenship: Jews, Christians and Muslims (Arabs and non Arabs).
But it is True that we have the "Law Of Return" that allows Jews and others to settle in Israel and gain citizenship:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return

Some history about the law:
In 1935 The Nazi Nuremberg Laws were passed. These laws were the basis for racial discrimination against Jews. The law classified people as Jews if they descended from three or more Jewish grandparents:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Laws

http://www.mtsu.edu/~baustin/nurmlaw2.html

In 1942 during the Wannsee Conference it was decided of the "Final Solution" - the extermination of Jews according to the Nuremberg Laws.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_Conference

http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/Holocaust/wansee-transcript.html

in 1948 the Israeli nation was esstablished - a home for the Jewish people. Horrifing stories and testemonials of people survivng the Holocaust started to reviel. In 1950 the Israeli goverment passed the law of return - If the Nazis wanted to kill every person with jewish blood three generations back, we will form a haven for them. Today, every Jew can come to Israel and get automatic citizenship. In addition to Israel, several other countries provide immigration privileges to individuals with ethnic ties to these countries (so-called leges sanguinis). As examples:
Section 116 of Germany's constitution allows people of "ethnic German origin" from Eastern Europe residency and citizenship rights.
Section 375 of the Greek citizenship law confers automatic citizenship to people of "Greek nationality" if they enlist in military service.
Section 25(1) of the Bulgarian constitution gives people of "Bulgarian origin" special access to obtaining Bulgarian citizenship.
Section 13(3) of the Armenian constitution confers automatic citizenship on a "native Armenian" living in the Armenian republic.
Section 18a of the Finnish foreigners' law states that a person from the Soviet Union who is of "Finnish origin" may, along with their spouse and children, receive permission for permanent residence and citizenship.
Section 14a of the Irish citizenship law of 1986 grants the interior minister authority to confer automatic citizenship on any applicant of "Irish origin or affiliation".
They also cite many other countries with similar laws, including Poland, Hungary, Slovakia, the Czech Republic, Slovenia, and Croatia[1]. Similarly, the Liberian constitution (currently defunct and being rewritten) allows only people "of Negro descent" (regardless of ethno-national affiliation) to become citizens. All these peculiar citizenship laws seem to have been enacted by states wishing to guarantee a safe-haven to diaspora populations assumed to be living under precarious conditions.


Quote:
Is it true that Israel commited terrorism against Americans?


Not True - This one realy puzzeled me - I honestly don't know what you're talking about. Israel commited terrorism against USA??? Sounds highly unlikely. I've researched the matter and the only incedent I've found regarding this matter was "Operation Suzannah" (AKA "Lavon Affair") In 1954:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair

In those days Israel and the USA weren't allies (Israel Allied with the former USSR than) and the whole opperation was carried out without the knowledge of the goverment and with no green light from the Prime minister. Because of this opperation the minister of Security was releaved of his duties and a parliamnet investigation was carried out. BTW - The terrorists did little damage to the targets and caused no injuries or deaths.


Quote:
America had no enemies in the middle east till we accepted Israel as our only friend.


Not True - In 1945, President Franklin D. Roosevelt met with King Abel-Aziz ibn Saud, the founder of the modern Arabian kingdom that now bears his family's name, and forged the alliance that remains to this day: in return for open access to Saudi oil, the United States would protect the royal family from its enemies, both external and internal.
At that time israel had no alliance with the USA. US also has alliance with Egypt and Jordan (US Millitary bases). Israel is the only alliance that is Democracy and hence the most stable one. It is in the best interese of the USA to have an alliance with Israel because it is based on true friendship and stability.
The game of " what would have happend if..." is a very cruel and unjust game. We can't be sure if USA wouldn't suffer terrorism if it haven't formed an alliance with Israel but I can tell you this:
El-Quaida attacked the USA not because of Israel but because of involvement of the USA in Saudi-Arabia.
Iranians expeled Americans from Iran not because of Israel but because of USA interests in Iranian oil.
USA gone to war with Iraq (Desert Storm) not because of Israel but because Iraq invaded Quweit and gepeordised the oil market in the world.
I can bring countless incidents which Israel has nothing to do with and are only USA-Arab matter.

Since you're blaming Israel for everything bad happend to the USA why not go to the exteme and blame us for:
Somalia
Bosnia
Vietnam
Korea
WWII
The American civil war
The war with Mexico
The war for independance
Does Israel has some involvement in this as well?

USA is our best friend and we see it as our big brother. The relationship is both directional and all sides gain something from it.


Quote:
If you answer no to any of these then you are a lier.


Well... I'm probably a lier in your eyes, but so do history books. I hope you'll read everything I've wrote and the articles included and maybe you'll change your mind just a bit.

with love - from Israel
odinstag
I'm not going to debate this. Because I could talk in circles with you and still get no place. People should just look up stuff for themselves.

The Levon Affair is a good place to start and so is the USS Liberty.

I'm gonna feel the way I do about it and can't make anyone else do anything they don't want to. So I really have no time to go to great lengths to get myself banned.

People can find all kinds of info about these things and do the reading for themselves. They can judge for themselves too.

Just don't let an Israeli be your only source for info on the Great Jewish State of Israel. This Israeli Conflict is not a place where we should be getting tunnel vision when it comes to our sources.

By way of deception, thou shall do war. After all that is the Israeli Mossad's matto. So get your info from more than one source. Just good advise.
itarlo
odinstag wrote:
So get your info from more than one source. Just good advise.


I totally agree with you on that one.
After all, we found some basis for agreement - that's a good start.
bangala
Dear itarlo,

If you're really willing to be involved in a constructive and permanent peace, you have to listen to others' sufferings and respect their rights to live as human beings.

You failed to mention that there was once a country called Palestine and there were human beings (Palestinians) living before you immigrate and settle there. The end of the Jewish suffering should not be the begenning of another nation's suffering. Palestianins did not commit a crime against Jews, had nothing to do with Nazis, were not living in Europe or Russia. They were having their own sufferings living under the British occupation in their homeland Palestine. Why do they have to live outside their homes in refugee camps and have no right to return, while any Jew in the world can immigrate and live in there even if he/she does not know the location of Palestine or Israel in the map? All refugees of the whole world are allowed to return home except Palestinians ! Why??
The end of any war in the whole world is initiated by allowing refugees to return safely to their homes. Israel denies the Palestinians this right. Israel do not want to end this war!
benwhite
The country called "Palestine" only existed on a map. It was just another part of the British Empire...until then, there were no such things as Palestinians. Under British rule, there were both Jews and Arabs living under oppression.

Most of the refugee camps were originally created by neighboring arab countries, like Jordan. The reason why there are so many refugees in the first place is that the Palestinian people fled Israel in '48 in order for the Arab nations to attack Israel, defeat it, and return the land to Muslim rule. They lost. In Israeli charter of '48 had a provision saying that it was a country open to all faiths and that everyone currently living there would be granted citizenship if they so wanted. They fled first, hence the ensuing problems.

Israel gains nothing from this conflict. Parents lose their children constantly and the economy is strained to the brink. Tourism, which Israel's economy relies a lot on, was crushed at the start of the intifada. Israel has been willing to make a two-state solution for over a decade now. They gave back Sinai, and there has been peace on that border for decades. It's clearly a country that's willing to make compromises to secure peace.
iclo
I lived in israel for a number of years , in wich time i learned a lot !!!!

(1) Every were you go("AND I MEAN EVERYWERE" )you will find memorials Boasting about terorrist acts perpotrated by the founders of israel

Large bronze plates on the side of buildings
"THIS IS THE SITE OF A Lechi BOMB FACTORY"
" THIS IS THE SITE OF BANK LEUMI THAT WAS ROBBED TO FINANCE THE RESISTANCE MOVMENT"
etc etc

(2) I Do not remember Bombings every day !!! This is a Bare faced lie
There were however ocasonaly spates of bombs, there would be 3 or 4 over a one or two month period ,this in turn hapened a few times over a period of a few years
i do not have the exact numbers but if you realy need them they are readly avalible on the net.....

(3) Here are some links about the levin affare & uss liberty
http://www.ussliberty.org/
http://home.cfl.rr.com/gidusko/liberty/
http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-usn/usnsh-l/agtr5.htm
http://www.usslibertyinquiry.com/forums/index.php
http://www.ciaonet.org/olj/wa/wa_oct02_goc01.html
http://cytations.blogspot.com/2005/09/despite-all-israels-efforts-arabs-do.html
there are many more links Try google

(4) Try to read israeli newspapers i recomend Haarretz "in English"
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/
it is in my view less corrupt and more open to the real comings and goings in israel

(5) and dont forget the story of the woman in red she was part of the stern gang "irgun" who put Two suitcasses of explosives in the jerusalem railway station OK she was caught before she could do any damage so much for the idea that inossent people were not targets
oh yes there was also dir yassin !!!!!
itarlo
bangala wrote:
Dear itarlo,

If you're really willing to be involved in a constructive and permanent peace, you have to listen to others' sufferings and respect their rights to live as human beings.


You are totlay right and Israel, in numerous occations, called the PA authority to nagotiate with us but they aren't willing to sit with us. The HAMASS doesn't even recognizes Israel as a state. Before the HAMASS, Yaser Araft - while talking to us - was involved in shipment of explosives and rockets to the PA authority. How can you nagotiate and speak to a kidnapper with a loaded gun if he is not even willing to pick up the phone? Israel reaches its hand for peace to all countries in the world - even Iran. So far only Egypt and Jordan streched their hand back and we have peaceful borders with them for years.

Quote:
You failed to mention that there was once a country called Palestine


There have never been a country called Palestine in the history. The land which includes today Israel+Gaza strip+West bank was once called Palestine. On this land there were Jews, Arabs and other minorities, but definatly no country named Palestine. The British Empire ruled this land and the law here was the British law. After the Brit's have left on 1947 the Gaza strip was ruled by Egypt and the West bank by the Jordanian Kingdom. The arabs in these teritories were citizens of Jordan and Egypt. Israel received the international reccognition of the UN for autonomy over the Israeli land (Not Gaza and the West bank). Arabs who stayed in Israeli teritories and didn't flee are the full citizens of Israel and have equal rights. Today there are 1 million Israeli-Arabs citizens living securly and safely in Israel.

Quote:
and there were human beings (Palestinians) living before you immigrate and settle there
.

You want to go into history? OK - Jews have lived in Israel (and that includes the so called occupied teritories) from more than 2000 years ago and lived in Israel till this day - and that's an historical fact. Want proof? 2000 years ago a small child named Jesus was born in Beithlehem (PA authority land today) to Joseph and Marry which were JEWS. Jesus christ was a jew who lived here. There are thousends of archiological findings of sinagogues and Jewish cities all over the Jewish land. Want more proof? Jews lived in the Jewish land even before Israel was formed. In August 1929 Arabs massacred 66 Jews in Hebron (PA authority land today) hence there were Jews living in the Jewish land together with Arabs who are known today as Palestinians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riots_in_Palestine_of_1929

http://www.hebron.org.il/1929/tarpat.htm (watch the horrifing pictures of woman and children mutilated by arabs from Hebron)


Quote:
The end of the Jewish suffering should not be the begenning of another nation's suffering.


I agree with you. That's why we build our future towards peace.

Quote:
Palestianins did not commit a crime against Jews


The Jewish-Palestinain history is full of Murdereruss attacks on Jews and organized massecres of Jews, even before Israel was declaired (See the examples above). I won't even start talking about the hundreds of Palestinian suicide bombers who killed 1000's of inocent people (Jews,Muslims and Christians) over the years


Quote:
had nothing to do with Nazis, were not living in Europe or Russia. They were having their own sufferings living under the British occupation in their homeland Palestine
.

Although the people in Palestine had nothing to do with the Nazis, their leaders sure have colaborated with the Nazis:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husayni

Please read how Mohammad Amin al-Husayni in his stupidity allied with Hitler disregarding the fact that Arabs are next on the list, after Jews.

Quote:
Why do they have to live outside their homes in refugee camps and have no right to return


Israel has claimed many times that refugees should come back to their own state - Palestine (On PA authority land) and the ones that fled from Israeli land will be reembursed according to international law. The PLO and the Arab countries do not agree to disassembel the refugee camps because it is a very strong political force. The PLO would rather see their own people suffer than to give up the strong media impact they can acheive.

Quote:
while any Jew in the world can immigrate and live in there even if he/she does not know the location of Palestine or Israel in the map?


Every Jew prays at least once a year facing Jerusalem (while Muslims face MECCAH). We have yerned for 2000 years to come back to our home - Israel. Your claim is rediculouse.

Quote:
All refugees of the whole world are allowed to return home except Palestinians ! Why??


According to this statement the Israeli land should be not only in Israel proper like today but also include the west bank, parts of Jordan and parts of Sinai because Jews lived there 2000 years ago and were forced to exile. Jews have been refugees for 2000 years and now deserve to return to their homeland? Isn't it so? Even the Palestinians recognize the fact that Jews lived here 2000 years ago:

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story564.html - this is from a Palestinian web-site.

We are logical people and understand that this idea is not possible and that's why we've decided to compromise and not to claim the whole of historical Israel and recognized the need for Palestinian people for their own land. Unfortunatly the Palestinian people and the HAMASS leaders still haven't recognized the need for Jewish refugees for their own land.

Quote:
The end of any war in the whole world is initiated by allowing refugees to return safely to their homes. Israel denies the Palestinians this right.


You are kidding.... right? Refugees almost never in history were allowed to go back to their own land. Big parts of Africa have refugee camps. The Tutsi tribes never seen their homes again. I'm not saying that it is just or fair - i'm just saying that these are the facts. In most cases the refugees were reimbursed financialy and rehabilitaed which the Israeli goverment is more than ready to do.
I'm willing to exept this statement and flow with you on this river of logic:
520,000 Arabs have fled from Israeli land in 1948. Today the number of their desendents is 3.5 Million people. Let us imagine that all of these 3.5 million refugees come back to their homes:

- Where will they live? Most Arabs who fled lived in small vileges of about 1000 people. These vileges don't exist anymore. Because Israel is a small country we build to height and not houses on the ground. Should we dis assemble these buildings? For Example the village SHEICH MUNIS used to be where the Tel Aviv University is today. Do you think it is possible to destroy the whole University and to rebuild there a small agricultural viliage? It's like saying that the white Americans should leave Manhatten and give it back to the native-americans (AKA Indians) or evacuating TEXAS so that all the Mexicans who lived there will come back to their homes. Can you understand how unlogical this claim is?

- Lets say that Israel is willing to destroy all of these buildings and evacuate large cities for the refugees: 3.5 million Palestinians come to Israel and become Israeli citizens (We can't have a segregated regeem here). In 10 years the Arabs become the majority in Israel and the Jews are minority again - this meens that a second Palestinian country is esstablished and again - no homeland for the Jewish people. It is most likely that this majority of Arabs will massacre the Jewish minority and we have a new HOLOCAUST only this time in Israel - the only haven for JEWS. This is not an imaginary or paranoid scenario - think of it.


Quote:
Israel do not want to end this war


Israel as a logical nation wants the end of the conflict, to bring peace and prosperity to this region. We have abundened the idea of "Large Historical Israel" and willing to live in the Israeli borders recognized by the UN. We hope our Palestinian neighbors come to their sences and stop the violance and stop demanding rediculuse demands and most of all - recognize the need for Jews for their own homeland in secure borders.
bangala
itarlo wrote:

You are totlay right and Israel, in numerous occations, called the PA authority to nagotiate with us but they aren't willing to sit with us. The HAMASS doesn't even recognizes Israel as a state. Before the HAMASS, Yaser Araft - while talking to us - was involved in shipment of explosives and rockets to the PA authority. How can you nagotiate and speak to a kidnapper with a loaded gun if he is not even willing to pick up the phone? Israel reaches its hand for peace to all countries in the world - even Iran. So far only Egypt and Jordan streched their hand back and we have peaceful borders with them for years.

What do you mean by "they are not willing to negotiate with us"?? They've spent more than 10 years negotiating with you while they are under huge pressure from their people who live under bad conditions in refugee camps! There was no imrpovement in the situation. People started to turn their back to PLO while Islamic extremests become more powerful. Israel participated in empowering Hamas and other Islamic groups. Priminister Rabin was assassinated and then suddenly Palestinians were asked to start the negotiation from zero again! You cannot blame the PA only for the failures in the peace process, Israel is to blamed too, specially that's the more powerful party.

itarlo wrote:

There have never been a country called Palestine in the history. The land which includes today Israel+Gaza strip+West bank was once called Palestine.

A land, a country, call it whatever you like: it's named any way Palestine!
The people who were living in it are called Palestenians, whether they were under the British rule, Othmani Rule, French rule, Israeli Rule, etc.

itarlo wrote:

Israel received the international reccognition of the UN for autonomy over the Israeli land (Not Gaza and the West bank).

Well let's be more accurate here, in 1947, the UN decided that the " land" Palestine should be partitioned into 2 states: Israel and Palestine. It seems that there are still people in srael who think that there are no such people who are called Palestenians, and the state Palestine must not exist, and yet they want peace!!


itarlo wrote:

You want to go into history? OK - Jews have lived in Israel (and that includes the so called occupied teritories) from more than 2000 years ago and lived in Israel till this day - and that's an historical fact. Want proof? 2000 years ago a small child named Jesus was born in Beithlehem (PA authority land today) to Joseph and Marry which were JEWS. Jesus christ was a jew who lived here. There are thousends of archiological findings of sinagogues and Jewish cities all over the Jewish land. Want more proof? Jews lived in the Jewish land even before Israel was formed. In August 1929 Arabs massacred 66 Jews in Hebron (PA authority land today) hence there were Jews living in the Jewish land together with Arabs who are known today as Palestinians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riots_in_Palestine_of_1929
http://www.hebron.org.il/1929/tarpat.htm (watch the horrifing pictures of woman and children mutilated by arabs from Hebron)

Jews, Arabs, Muslims, Chrestians, lived all in Palestine, why should it be only a Jewish state?? Why do you want it to be only for Jews?? What about others?? Where shall they go? That's where they were born!
BTW: all the sources that you've quoted are Jewish, try to look at another sources.

itarlo wrote:

Quote:
The end of the Jewish suffering should not be the begenning of another nation's suffering.


I agree with you. That's why we build our future towards peace.

Unfortunately, not all Israelis are working for Peace, especially those who still argue about the rights of Palestenians to live as a nation within their own state Palestine.

itarlo wrote:

Quote:
Palestianins did not commit a crime against Jews


The Jewish-Palestinain history is full of Murdereruss attacks on Jews and organized massecres of Jews, even before Israel was declaired (See the examples above). I won't even start talking about the hundreds of Palestinian suicide bombers who killed 1000's of inocent people (Jews,Muslims and Christians) over the years

I was obviously talking about the Nazis and the Jewish holocost. Are you going to blame the Palestnians for that??

itarlo wrote:

Quote:
had nothing to do with Nazis, were not living in Europe or Russia. They were having their own sufferings living under the British occupation in their homeland Palestine
.

Although the people in Palestine had nothing to do with the Nazis, their leaders sure have colaborated with the Nazis:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husayni

Please read how Mohammad Amin al-Husayni in his stupidity allied with Hitler disregarding the fact that Arabs are next on the list, after Jews.

So how did he help the Nazis?? By sending his Military planes and ships or thousands of troobs. How many Jews did he burn in Europe? BTW how many Jews had collaborated with the Nazis too??
Again you're using the same sources.

itarlo wrote:

Quote:
Why do they have to live outside their homes in refugee camps and have no right to return


Israel has claimed many times that refugees should come back to their own state - Palestine (On PA authority land)

Oh you're talking finally about their own state Palestine: Thank you. However, it's totally destroyed and surrounded by huge walls just like a big prison. People 'living' there are thinking of ways to escape from that prison. Do you think that "prison" can acoomdate more people? Maybe if Isael really wanted to.

itarlo wrote:

Quote:
while any Jew in the world can immigrate and live in there even if he/she does not know the location of Palestine or Israel in the map?


Every Jew prays at least once a year facing Jerusalem (while Muslims face MECCAH). We have yerned for 2000 years to come back to our home - Israel. Your claim is rediculouse.


I may sound rediculouse but I still can't get it. If there are 1.2 bilion muslims around the world facing MECCAH while praying, does that mean they should go and live there in MECCAH? If Chrestians are not praying facing Jerusalem, does that mean they should have no rights to live there??
Yet, NO PROBLEM, you can invite all Jews of the world who pray facing Jerusalem to come and live in Jerusalem, but please do not prevent Palestenians from returning to their homes!

itarlo wrote:

Quote:
All refugees of the whole world are allowed to return home except Palestinians ! Why??


According to this statement the Israeli land should be not only in Israel proper like today but also include the west bank, parts of Jordan and parts of Sinai because Jews lived there 2000 years ago and were forced to exile. Jews have been refugees for 2000 years and now deserve to return to their homeland? Isn't it so? Even the Palestinians recognize the fact that Jews lived here 2000 years ago:

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story564.html - this is from a Palestinian web-site.

We are logical people and understand that this idea is not possible and that's why we've decided to compromise and not to claim the whole of historical Israel and recognized the need for Palestinian people for their own land. Unfortunatly the Palestinian people and the HAMASS leaders still haven't recognized the need for Jewish refugees for their own land.

I'm NOT talking about 2000 years ago, I'm talking about 50 years ago, about people who were forced to leave their land and are still alive. They are still having their homes' pictures and memories. They have the keys of their homes!! 2000 years ago! OMG! Are you really logical??

itarlo wrote:

Quote:
The end of any war in the whole world is initiated by allowing refugees to return safely to their homes. Israel denies the Palestinians this right.


You are kidding.... right? Refugees almost never in history were allowed to go back to their own land. Big parts of Africa have refugee camps. The Tutsi tribes never seen their homes again. I'm not saying that it is just or fair - i'm just saying that these are the facts. In most cases the refugees were reimbursed financialy and rehabilitaed which the Israeli goverment is more than ready to do.

"Refugees almost never in history were allowed to go back to their own land. " It's hard to comment here, but be sure that whenever refugees are not given the choice of returning to their home, bloodshed is there, and war persists instead of peace.

itarlo wrote:

I'm willing to exept this statement and flow with you on this river of logic:
520,000 Arabs have fled from Israeli land in 1948. Today the number of their desendents is 3.5 Million people. Let us imagine that all of these 3.5 million refugees come back to their homes:

- Where will they live? Most Arabs who fled lived in small vileges of about 1000 people. These vileges don't exist anymore. Because Israel is a small country we build to height and not houses on the ground. Should we dis assemble these buildings? For Example the village SHEICH MUNIS used to be where the Tel Aviv University is today. Do you think it is possible to destroy the whole University and to rebuild there a small agricultural viliage? It's like saying that the white Americans should leave Manhatten and give it back to the native-americans (AKA Indians) or evacuating TEXAS so that all the Mexicans who lived there will come back to their homes. Can you understand how unlogical this claim is?

And do you think that these 3.5 Million people are all willing to go back to their destroyed homes?? Most of them have settled where they are living, yet they don't wan't to be deprived from their right to go back or be compensated.

itarlo wrote:

- Lets say that Israel is willing to destroy all of these buildings and evacuate large cities for the refugees: 3.5 million Palestinians come to Israel and become Israeli citizens (We can't have a segregated regeem here). In 10 years the Arabs become the majority in Israel and the Jews are minority again - this meens that a second Palestinian country is esstablished and again - no homeland for the Jewish people. It is most likely that this majority of Arabs will massacre the Jewish minority and we have a new HOLOCAUST only this time in Israel - the only haven for JEWS. This is not an imaginary or paranoid scenario - think of it.

Think about establishing a country of equal rights for all religions, minorites, and ethnic groups, Jewish, Arabs, Muslims, Chrestians. This way you'd never be afraid of a massacre.

itarlo wrote:

Quote:
Israel do not want to end this war


Israel as a logical nation wants the end of the conflict, to bring peace and prosperity to this region. We have abundened the idea of "Large Historical Israel" and willing to live in the Israeli borders recognized by the UN. We hope our Palestinian neighbors come to their sences and stop the violance and stop demanding rediculuse demands and most of all - recognize the need for Jews for their own homeland in secure borders.

Though very late, it's great that you've finally abandoned the idea of "Large Historical Israel. I hope that you'll too reconsider those " rediculuse demands " before it's too late.
Peace!
itarlo
Dear bangala - I'm not going to quote and answer again because we can go in circules like that for ages, and that is not my objective.

I would realy like to hear your opinion for the solution for the Israeli Palestinian conflict?
What, in your eyes, will bring the end to all of that? If you can describe it in details and not generaly (borders, nations, regime etc.)

BTW - Wikipedia is a Jewish source??????????
bangala
itarlo wrote:
Dear bangala - I'm not going to quote and answer again because we can go in circules like that for ages, and that is not my objective.

I would realy like to hear your opinion for the solution for the Israeli Palestinian conflict?
What, in your eyes, will bring the end to all of that? If you can describe it in details and not generaly (borders, nations, regime etc.)

BTW - Wikipedia is a Jewish source??????????

My view is, either:
One independent federal democratic country of 2 or more states where all people live there with equal rights: Arabs, Jews, Muslims, Christians, etc.
OR
Two independent states that can live together in Peace. And please don't say that Israel wants that but THEY don't want it. If you work HARD for it, you'll get it. It's better to make peace when you're more powerful. You cannot convince Jews to immigrate in a war area. You have wasted soo much time until Hamas won elections. If you even waste more time, you might end out using your nuclear power and explode the whole region.
Regarding Wikipedia,
This is the 1st link that you've provided:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riots_in_Palestine_of_1929
click on the above link, scroll down to References:
here they are:
Righteous Victims by Benny Morris
The British in Palestine by Bernard Wasserstein
Shaw Commission enquiry report
Scroll down further to External links:
here they are:
http://www.hebron.org.il/1929/tarpat.htm
http://www.zionism-israel.com/Palestine_Massacre_riots_of_1929.htm
odinstag
Watch this!

Crimes of Zionism


Such noble warriors the Zionists are.

Israel is no ones friend but it's own.
bangala
odinstag wrote:
Watch this!

Crimes of Zionism

Great video odinstag and it's great to know that it's being advocated by jews!
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/
itarlo
Would you like me to post the thousends of pictures and movies of Palestinian suice bombers killing children few months old???

odinstag wrote:
Watch this!

Crimes of Zionism


Such noble warriors the Zionists are.

Israel is no ones friend but it's own.
The Conspirator
Everything has a cause and effect relationship.
Palestinians terrorism is caused by the abuse and oppression of the Palestinians people at the hand of Israel.
itarlo
so what your acctualy saying is that Terrorism is accepted way of fighting?
Please show me one example where terror had brought to a solution.
Terror usually brings to more violance. as you said:"Everything has a cause and effect relationship". Terror will always be met with more power from the Israeli army. The solution is to stop the violance, rockets and hatfull education in the palestinian schools. Palestinians should gather all the weapons in the hands of the street gangs and then peace will come.

The Conspirator wrote:
Everything has a cause and effect relationship.
Palestinians terrorism is caused by the abuse and oppression of the Palestinians people at the hand of Israel.
The Conspirator
No I never said it was an excepted way of fighting.
What you don't get it the Palestinians authority has no authority, it has Little power and if it pisses off those terrorist groups it would be destroyed by them.
Israel is the cause of all the problems between them. Israel stole the land that it it exists on from the Palestinians and other Arab nations, Israel from day 1 oppressed and abused the Palestinians people. Why do you think the Palestinians hate the Israelis so much? I don't agree with there methods but they do have the right to defined them selves.
Israel started it and only Israel can stop it. They have to stop oppressing and abusing the Palestinians. But they will not cause heres the thing. The Israel government dose not care about the Palestinians and if the Israel government could they would wipe them out but they know the international community and the majority of Israelis would not like that cause the know its wrong.
palavra
itarlo wrote:
odinstag wrote:
Is it true that Israel is segregated?


minority. For example: while it is mandatory for all Israelies (Man & Woman) to serve in the army for 3 years, arabs in Israel are not obligated to go to the army and can go volentarily. Israeli goverment understands that in times of war, mentaly, it will be almots imposible for arabs to fight their own brothers on the enemy side.


-i hope u don't believe this bullshits

-last month an arab (israili) wanted to be pilot in israili army
but he couldn't(why?)

itarlo wrote:
[with love - from Israel


i saw this text in a picture
an israile girl (8-9) years old was writing to a bomb

this is realy what you are Exclamation
Soulfire
The Conspirator wrote:
Everything has a cause and effect relationship.
Palestinians terrorism is caused by the abuse and oppression of the Palestinians people at the hand of Israel.
What opression? Is it being in existence an opression to the Palestinians? While neither side is 100% guilty (or innocent), I believe that the Palestinians have just as much of a blame in the whole problem as the Israelis.
Helios
Read the goddam sticky.

-close-

אני ישראלי ד"א Razz
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