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Theoretical Scientific Evidence For the Existence of God
My assertion is a combination of entropy, quantum physics, dynamical systems theory, mathematics and computer science theory.
(1) Maxwell proved 150 years ago that entropy is the result of bit transfers at the atomic level.
(2) Quantum computers are based on using mechanisms already operating in the universe. The universe is already a quantum computer.
(3) Associative Memory Theory in mathematics has proven that all matrix operations form a "bidirectional associative memory mechanism". Matrix operations are also the only essential component of a neural network. In the brain the only addition to this is a sigmoid squash function on the matrix output.
(4) In quantum physics the interaction between all particles in the universe forms a matrix operation via each of the four fundamental forces of the universe.
(5) Dynamical systems theory proves that chaotic systems self-organize.
At the atomic level the universe is a vast neural network. The assertion that this neural network could not have self-organized has no evidence to support it, whereas there is ample evidence to support the assertion that it must have self-organized.
(1) Maxwell proved 150 years ago that entropy is the result of bit transfers at the atomic level.
(2) Quantum computers are based on using mechanisms already operating in the universe. The universe is already a quantum computer.
(3) Associative Memory Theory in mathematics has proven that all matrix operations form a "bidirectional associative memory mechanism". Matrix operations are also the only essential component of a neural network. In the brain the only addition to this is a sigmoid squash function on the matrix output.
(4) In quantum physics the interaction between all particles in the universe forms a matrix operation via each of the four fundamental forces of the universe.
(5) Dynamical systems theory proves that chaotic systems self-organize.
At the atomic level the universe is a vast neural network. The assertion that this neural network could not have self-organized has no evidence to support it, whereas there is ample evidence to support the assertion that it must have self-organized.
God's existance can be seen in nature. The perfectness and harmony are clear evidence of His existence! 
God beatiful creation sparkles with the message of God!
God beatiful creation sparkles with the message of God!
Take a clock. Open up the inside, and look at all the devices, levers, gears, etc. Look at how it meshes all together perfectly and in harmony. You must know that it has been designed by someone.
Take the universe now, with it's planets, orbits, atmospheres, starts, etc. and how it all just meshes together perfectly. Wouldn't you think it was designed by Someone? I do.
That's just a bit of my philosophy on the whole "existence of God" thing.
Take the universe now, with it's planets, orbits, atmospheres, starts, etc. and how it all just meshes together perfectly. Wouldn't you think it was designed by Someone? I do.
That's just a bit of my philosophy on the whole "existence of God" thing.
These are old arguments which I never found the least bit convincing when I became an atheist at the age of 12.
If something as complex as God came into existence on It's own then why not something less complex like the physical universe? You are replacing one proposition with another less plausible propoisition. This argument is entirely insufficient.
If something as complex as God came into existence on It's own then why not something less complex like the physical universe? You are replacing one proposition with another less plausible propoisition. This argument is entirely insufficient.
If we are designed by a higher intelligence, why do we have appendixes, a coccyx, or hair erector muscles?
Why do flightless birds have wings?
Why do whales have a pelvis and stunted vestigial leg bones?
Why do blind cave-fish have eyes?
Why do men have nipples?
The existance of a poorly designed clock points to the existance of a blind watchmaker. (Ok, a little glib and not entirely accurate, but catchy! :p)
The appendix is a particularly troublesome one, as not only is it entirely useless, it's also quite dangerous. I've not missed mine in the slightest since it was surgically removed, but in earlier days it would have killed me, aged 5.
Why do flightless birds have wings?
Why do whales have a pelvis and stunted vestigial leg bones?
Why do blind cave-fish have eyes?
Why do men have nipples?
The existance of a poorly designed clock points to the existance of a blind watchmaker. (Ok, a little glib and not entirely accurate, but catchy! :p)
The appendix is a particularly troublesome one, as not only is it entirely useless, it's also quite dangerous. I've not missed mine in the slightest since it was surgically removed, but in earlier days it would have killed me, aged 5.
god was created in peoples minds to explane things found in nature, why would a god make use and leave no evidence to show he/she is real?????
did you know that moses was dark skinned??? (if there was a moses)
did you know that moses was dark skinned??? (if there was a moses)
That's a lot of thought to put us to, man.
One line at a time for me, ok?
(1) Maxwell proved 150 years ago that entropy is the result of bit transfers at the atomic level.
Cite me a source. I did some light searching, but all I found where discussions of Maxwell's thought experiment concerning the 2nd law of thermodynamics, Maxwell's Demon. I can't make the connection to your assertion. Can you help me understand where you are coming from here?
One line at a time for me, ok?
(1) Maxwell proved 150 years ago that entropy is the result of bit transfers at the atomic level.
Cite me a source. I did some light searching, but all I found where discussions of Maxwell's thought experiment concerning the 2nd law of thermodynamics, Maxwell's Demon. I can't make the connection to your assertion. Can you help me understand where you are coming from here?
Actually, I was unaware of it until I heard an interview with a physicist who has built several quantum computer experiments, who described this aspect of Maxwell's entropy. I will have to do some research myself to find a reference.
I can’t find any explicit references either, and not being familiar with either Maxwell’s equations or partial differentials, I have no way to decipher what aspect of Maxwell’s theory was being referred to by the physicist I heard being interviewed. It is really just a cool fact (assuming it to be true). The issue it covers is more decisively demonstrated by the 2nd point about quantum computers.
I’ve received a request to go into a more detail description of the points here. I’ll skip the first point since it isn’t essential to the train of logic.
(2) The study of quantum computers is an extremely exciting field which promises to create computers that run thousands of times faster than they do today, and to miniaturized to thousands of times smaller than they are now. Ordinary computers store data in capacitors; if the capacitor is filled with charge that is a one, and if the capacitor is emptied out that is a zero. Silicon technology allows these capacitors to be polled for their charge so that bytes of data can be retrieved. In a quantum computer the ones and zeros are stored in the quantum state of a particle. This produces some odd results, because of the peculiarities of quantum physics a particle can be in two different quantum states simultaneously; this is called quantum superimposition. So a bit can be both on and off at the same time. If mechanisms allowing for more than two quantum states are involved then the possibility is opened up for significant parallel processing.
(3) There is a field of mathematics call Associative Memory Theory, which focuses primarily on what are called Bidirectional Associative Memory Mechanisms, or BAMMs. A BAMM is simply a matrix which operates like a neural network, i.e. the brain. In mathematical terms a neural network is simply a bidirected graph that is described by an incidence matrix.
Matrix multiplication works by taking an input vector, an array of numbers, and multiplying each element by each element of a column vector in the matrix. This produces a new vector, then all the elements of the vector are added together to produce the output value for that column. This is done for each column in the matrix to produce an output vector.
This is equivalent to the way a neural network operates. A neuron receives inputs from all the neurons around it, and sums these inputs to produce the neurons new state. The input vector corresponds to the charged state of all the neurons around it, and the column of the matrix corresponds to the bias on those connections. Some connections are inhibitory and some are excitory. An inhibitory connection mean that if another neuron is active it will suppress the neuron receiving a signal through that connection, and an excitory connection will activate it’s neighbor through the connection if it is active. So all of the basic facets of a neural network are present in matrix multiplication.
All matrices are bidirectional which refers to the fact that the output vectors can be multiplied back through the matrix in the opposite direction. Think of it as a square, a vector can either be multiplied through the side and the output comes out the bottom, or a vector can be multiplied in from the bottom and the output vector comes out on the side of the matrix.
If you do a matrix multiplication and then take the output vector and multiply it back through the matrix in the opposite direction you will not get the vector that you started with, you would have to do division to get the original vector. Never the less, when this is done, all matrices stabilize on two vector patterns on the side and bottom, given some initial vector input. It has been mathematically proven that no matrix can be construct for which there is not some initial input vector that will produce a stable pair of vectors.
Having a stabilized pattern on the side and bottom vectors is called an associative pattern. For example, the side pattern might represent vestibular inputs giving information on the tilt of a robot and the bottom pattern would represent motor controls for stabilizing the robot. The larger the matrix is the more pairs of patterns that matrix can store.
Ultimately the human mind itself should be able to be simulated. The brain is a computational mechanism, and according to computer science theory, any computational mechanism with the power of Turing machine has the power to simulate any other computational device. Turing machines are extremely simple devices.
(4) The interaction of all particles in the universe forms a massive set of enormous matrix operation through all of the four fundamental forces of the universe (gravity, electromagnetism, strong nuclear force and weak nuclear force). The n-body problem is a complex matrix operation that describes the path traveled by any number of objects interacting through gravity, such as our solar system. The path of stars in a galaxy would be a much more complex n-body problem. While the n-body problem does not involve simple addition of multiplied pairs of values, any computation performed by a simple matrix operation can be simulated with a more complex matrix operation (but the reverse is not necessarily true). While gravitational and electromagnetic influences drop of at a parabolic rate (at a distance of x the influence is x*x weaker) and the strong and weak force are completely neutralized at very small distances, this is not unlike the brain, which has trillions of neurons, but each neuron only has about 10,000 connections.
(5) A dynamical system is a concept in mathematics where a fixed rule describes the time dependence of a point in a geometrical space. The mathematical models used to describe the swinging of a clock pendulum, the flow of water in a pipe, or the number of fish each spring in a lake are examples of dynamical systems.
Self-organization refers to the fascet of Chaos Theory and it’s corollary, Anti-Chaos Theory, which describes the means by which chaotic dynamical systems become more ordered and less random. It is especially applicable to biological dynamical systems. Anti-Chaos Theory models have been used to simulate the process of evolution on computers.
(2) The study of quantum computers is an extremely exciting field which promises to create computers that run thousands of times faster than they do today, and to miniaturized to thousands of times smaller than they are now. Ordinary computers store data in capacitors; if the capacitor is filled with charge that is a one, and if the capacitor is emptied out that is a zero. Silicon technology allows these capacitors to be polled for their charge so that bytes of data can be retrieved. In a quantum computer the ones and zeros are stored in the quantum state of a particle. This produces some odd results, because of the peculiarities of quantum physics a particle can be in two different quantum states simultaneously; this is called quantum superimposition. So a bit can be both on and off at the same time. If mechanisms allowing for more than two quantum states are involved then the possibility is opened up for significant parallel processing.
(3) There is a field of mathematics call Associative Memory Theory, which focuses primarily on what are called Bidirectional Associative Memory Mechanisms, or BAMMs. A BAMM is simply a matrix which operates like a neural network, i.e. the brain. In mathematical terms a neural network is simply a bidirected graph that is described by an incidence matrix.
Matrix multiplication works by taking an input vector, an array of numbers, and multiplying each element by each element of a column vector in the matrix. This produces a new vector, then all the elements of the vector are added together to produce the output value for that column. This is done for each column in the matrix to produce an output vector.
This is equivalent to the way a neural network operates. A neuron receives inputs from all the neurons around it, and sums these inputs to produce the neurons new state. The input vector corresponds to the charged state of all the neurons around it, and the column of the matrix corresponds to the bias on those connections. Some connections are inhibitory and some are excitory. An inhibitory connection mean that if another neuron is active it will suppress the neuron receiving a signal through that connection, and an excitory connection will activate it’s neighbor through the connection if it is active. So all of the basic facets of a neural network are present in matrix multiplication.
All matrices are bidirectional which refers to the fact that the output vectors can be multiplied back through the matrix in the opposite direction. Think of it as a square, a vector can either be multiplied through the side and the output comes out the bottom, or a vector can be multiplied in from the bottom and the output vector comes out on the side of the matrix.
If you do a matrix multiplication and then take the output vector and multiply it back through the matrix in the opposite direction you will not get the vector that you started with, you would have to do division to get the original vector. Never the less, when this is done, all matrices stabilize on two vector patterns on the side and bottom, given some initial vector input. It has been mathematically proven that no matrix can be construct for which there is not some initial input vector that will produce a stable pair of vectors.
Having a stabilized pattern on the side and bottom vectors is called an associative pattern. For example, the side pattern might represent vestibular inputs giving information on the tilt of a robot and the bottom pattern would represent motor controls for stabilizing the robot. The larger the matrix is the more pairs of patterns that matrix can store.
Ultimately the human mind itself should be able to be simulated. The brain is a computational mechanism, and according to computer science theory, any computational mechanism with the power of Turing machine has the power to simulate any other computational device. Turing machines are extremely simple devices.
(4) The interaction of all particles in the universe forms a massive set of enormous matrix operation through all of the four fundamental forces of the universe (gravity, electromagnetism, strong nuclear force and weak nuclear force). The n-body problem is a complex matrix operation that describes the path traveled by any number of objects interacting through gravity, such as our solar system. The path of stars in a galaxy would be a much more complex n-body problem. While the n-body problem does not involve simple addition of multiplied pairs of values, any computation performed by a simple matrix operation can be simulated with a more complex matrix operation (but the reverse is not necessarily true). While gravitational and electromagnetic influences drop of at a parabolic rate (at a distance of x the influence is x*x weaker) and the strong and weak force are completely neutralized at very small distances, this is not unlike the brain, which has trillions of neurons, but each neuron only has about 10,000 connections.
(5) A dynamical system is a concept in mathematics where a fixed rule describes the time dependence of a point in a geometrical space. The mathematical models used to describe the swinging of a clock pendulum, the flow of water in a pipe, or the number of fish each spring in a lake are examples of dynamical systems.
Self-organization refers to the fascet of Chaos Theory and it’s corollary, Anti-Chaos Theory, which describes the means by which chaotic dynamical systems become more ordered and less random. It is especially applicable to biological dynamical systems. Anti-Chaos Theory models have been used to simulate the process of evolution on computers.
so.. what your saying is, the Universe is God's brain?
Thanks for explaining it in terms I can understand better. I really appreciate it.
| NemoySpruce wrote: |
| so.. what your saying is, the Universe is God's brain? |
Yes, exactly!
We are floating on the surface of God's brain, so to speak.
Wow--that's an interesting theory; one that I hadn't thought of before...
I'm happy to see an atheist (from a young age) develop their thoughts so well respectively. I have a younger atheist cousin, and he plays the "there is no god" card all to often, just to get away with everything he wants. At least here, on the forums, people can discuss topics without insulting eachother... But I digress...
The common belief is not that God ever came into existence--rather, that he always was. He's always been here, and always will be. What does not have a beginning can have no end, no?
So perhaps, based on your theory, this world is just the fleeting thought/image/dream of some superior being? It's very interesting; perhaps even convincing for some... Once the "grand master's" though ends, so will we. Hmm... It would definitely suit a lot of those simulation theories about reality.. I'm liking this topic.
| mike1reynolds wrote: |
| These are old arguments which I never found the least bit convincing when I became an atheist at the age of 12.
If something as complex as God came into existence on It's own then why not something less complex like the physical universe? You are replacing one proposition with another less plausible propoisition. This argument is entirely insufficient. |
I'm happy to see an atheist (from a young age) develop their thoughts so well respectively. I have a younger atheist cousin, and he plays the "there is no god" card all to often, just to get away with everything he wants. At least here, on the forums, people can discuss topics without insulting eachother... But I digress...
The common belief is not that God ever came into existence--rather, that he always was. He's always been here, and always will be. What does not have a beginning can have no end, no?
So perhaps, based on your theory, this world is just the fleeting thought/image/dream of some superior being? It's very interesting; perhaps even convincing for some... Once the "grand master's" though ends, so will we. Hmm... It would definitely suit a lot of those simulation theories about reality.. I'm liking this topic.
| Juparis wrote: |
| I'm happy to see an atheist (from a young age) develop their thoughts so well respectively.
|
Don't get the impression that I am still an atheist. Once the Source presented Itself to me, I had clear and convincing evidence that It does exist.
I apologize for the presumption.
Nonetheless, I'm just glad that so many people here (including yourself) can discuss such topics without becoming immature or disrespectful. I've had some not-so-well debates in the past...
..just trying to show my appreciation
Nonetheless, I'm just glad that so many people here (including yourself) can discuss such topics without becoming immature or disrespectful. I've had some not-so-well debates in the past...
..just trying to show my appreciation
| mike1reynolds wrote: | ||
Yes, exactly! We are floating on the surface of God's brain, so to speak. |
intriguing proposition... if your theory is correct, then it would be in our best interest to figure out how to make god take some psychedelic inducing substances... that would be waaay coool dude...then again looking at some of the recent NASA pics of galaxies and supernovas, maybe God has already inhaled something.
Haha, that'd be an interesting sight--God getting high, as we're inside his brain?
Maybe this is God's brain, and God himself is nothing more than an ordinary person in a much larger world? And that his universe is just a repeat of the cycle, etc? Then that would mean each atom we're made of is another universe/galaxy. I wonder what happens there when one of us gets high...
There is no such thing as scientific evidence of god. Why? Because science is not allowed to use divinity as an explanation. It is built into the rules of science and the scientific method. That does not mean that there is no such thing as a God, it just means that science is utterly incapable of proving it.
| Juparis wrote: |
| Haha, that'd be an interesting sight--God getting high, as we're inside his brain?
Maybe this is God's brain, and God himself is nothing more than an ordinary person in a much larger world? And that his universe is just a repeat of the cycle, etc? Then that would mean each atom we're made of is another universe/galaxy. I wonder what happens there when one of us gets high... |
Well, now that you are starting to explore the theory and coming up with some odd things (like the ending to Men In Black II or Horton Hears a Who) I have to admit that this thing that I described isn't God at all. Just as we have a brain and a soul, this thing is a brain and God is it's soul.
"Do not trust he that is in the world, trust He that is in Heaven." I forget what vurse that is. On the surface it seems to say don't trust anyone. If you try to interpret it as, don't trust worldly people, you come up against, "Be in the world but not of it." Can't remember where vurse is either, but even people that aren't of the world are in it, which blows the worldly people interpretation. Anyway, I think it refers to the Devil, trust God, don't trust the Devil.
I think this brain has some issues, part of it works with God and part of it is litterally the Devil. It is a complex issues, but it is basically why this universe is the front lines of a cosmic battle. Every soul is a battlefield here at the edge of the Side of Light's influence. Here at the edge the Cosmic Consciousness is too far away from God and is disconnected, a mind in rebellion against it's own soul, like so many people. It wavers between Sides, so that both Sides can use it in the battle. That is why the battle is not too lopsided, the two Sides are near to each other's strength.
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