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Is there only ONE God?
Do all religions point to the same God?
The answer is No.
Hindu Gods favour you, if you worship his images/statues. Muslim God curse you, if you worship any image. Muslim God order you to destroy statues.
Christian God created world in seven days. Hindu God created it in one day. Christan God created only one human pair. Hindu God created four races of humanity.
Hindu God give you several lifes, rebirths. Christian God give you only one life.
Christian God order you to accept Jesus as his son, otherwise sends you to hell. Hindu God do not know, who is Jesus.
Hindu Gods favour you, if you worship his images/statues. Muslim God curse you, if you worship any image. Muslim God order you to destroy statues.
Christian God created world in seven days. Hindu God created it in one day. Christan God created only one human pair. Hindu God created four races of humanity.
Hindu God give you several lifes, rebirths. Christian God give you only one life.
Christian God order you to accept Jesus as his son, otherwise sends you to hell. Hindu God do not know, who is Jesus.
The Lord God is the only God, he that created the world, animals and Adam & Eeve! He who took the Israelites over the redsea. Thou shalt not have any other gods before Him! 
i think there is only a God...if i were wrong every where must in caoses...because only if a hand control us World could become a relaxing place...Life is good...Creater is Allah(ALLAH)
If there's only one God, Eric Clapton must be busier than he looks.
| BruceTheDauber wrote: |
| If there's only one God, Eric Clapton must be busier than he looks. |
Differences in practise imply that people are indeed worshipping different gods. But since God, Allah, and the Flying Spaghetti Monster all have the same levels of proof, if there is only one god determining which it is is nigh-on impossible.
There is only one true God, and His Son, Jesus Christ.
| Soulfire wrote: |
| There is only one true God, and His Son, Jesus Christ. |
Genuine curiosity here - how do you know that?
| Subsonic Sound wrote: | ||
Genuine curiosity here - how do you know that? |
A man has only two things. Faith, and a Bible.
There's a few arguments, and if you search the internet, thousands of "proofs" of the existence of God.
Personal Story:
I know a person who had cancer. The doctors gave her 6 weeks to live, because they said it was terminal based on all science and all medical studies. It was bad.
The prayers poured in, and I prayed, my family prayed... we all prayed. When she went in to the hospital for some more tests, the cancer had disappeared. It was "like magic" as the doctor said. That was not magic working there, it was God.
Another thought:
If you found a clock and examined the mechanism within it, you would probably think that this intricate mechanism was not the outcome of mere chance, that it had been designed.
Now look at the universe; is it possible that such an intricate mechanism, from the orbits of planets round the sun to the cells in your fingernails could all have happened by chance? Surely, this enormously complex mechanism has been designed, and the being that designed it must be God.
More:
Everything that exists has a cause. However, there must at some time have been a cause prior to all other causes. This 'prime mover' or first cause is necessary to explain existence. This first cause is God.
Three Prophecies - Three Destinies
- Babylon, that great power in the Middle East, was to lose its empire and its magnificent capital city was to become a site of desolate ruins, shunned by man and beast. And so it came to pass.
- Egypt , also a great empire , was to remain a recognisable kingdom. The Egyptians were to continue to inhabit their own land. But they would be constantly dominated by other powers, remaining "a lowly kingdom". And so they have been.
- The fate of Israel was not to be like either of these. Scattered from their own land into other countries, and suffering severe persecutions and constant contempt, they were to return to the very land from which they were scattered, and to establish themselves there once again.
Let us note carefully the following facts:
1) The prophecies concerning these nations were uttered about 2500 years ago.
2) Their truth has been demonstrated in history right up to the present day.
3) The three cases quoted concern three different powers with three entirely different fates. One was to disappear into oblivion; the second was to remain, but be subject to other nations; the third was to be destroyed, its people expelled and scattered all over the earth, and yet eventually to be restored in the original land.
4) These are not "political forecasts" of clever political observers, but accurate predictions.
Certainly no man could've predicted those.
| Quote: |
| Personal Story:
I know a person who had cancer. The doctors gave her 6 weeks to live, because they said it was terminal based on all science and all medical studies. It was bad. The prayers poured in, and I prayed, my family prayed... we all prayed. When she went in to the hospital for some more tests, the cancer had disappeared. It was "like magic" as the doctor said. That was not magic working there, it was God. |
My aunt had terminal lung cancer. She was given a scant few weeks to live. She actually came up to see us to say goodbye - which was heartbreaking, I'm sure I don't have to say.
That was three years ago. Now she's doing fine. No-one was praying for her, we were all just really hoping. The human body is capable of some pretty amazing things.
Besides, I'm quite certain I could find similar testimonials with people praying to Allah, or the spirits of their ancestors, or whatever.
| Quote: |
| Another thought:
If you found a clock and examined the mechanism within it, you would probably think that this intricate mechanism was not the outcome of mere chance, that it had been designed. Now look at the universe; is it possible that such an intricate mechanism, from the orbits of planets round the sun to the cells in your fingernails could all have happened by chance? Surely, this enormously complex mechanism has been designed, and the being that designed it must be God. |
I don't think that's necessarily true. Yes, if you were to find a watch on the moors, you'd think it'd been made, but that's only because you know that humans create such mechanisms, and don't know of any other way for such mechanisms to spring into being. You're starting out with an item which everybody knows is designed. There is no way for watches to reproduce themselves, for instance, wild watches don't roam the plains.
But with biological creatures, it's quite different. We can create ourselves. We can change in the recreation. Evolution is, quite simply, fact. There is definitive proof that it can happen. I'll explain some if needs be, but I should hope it's not necessary. Now, the places most christians debate that are speciation and origin - can evolution create new species? Yes, it can, by geographical speciation and meiotic speciation. Again, I will explain if necessary.
The point where it gets fuzzy, admittedly, is origin. I'm told there are biological, evolutionary theories that cover it, but I've still not entirely satisfied there. Sooner or later, we'll find an answer though. We've been able to explain the rest of it.
A friend of mine believes that God started life off, enabled it to evolve, and let it go. Obviously I can't disprove that - such is the nature of belief. It survives through being impossible to disprove. Most scientific theories begin with mind-bogglingly unlikely events. Unlikely - but not impossible.
| Quote: |
| Three Prophecies - Three Destinies |
Admittedly impressive. But not proof of anything in particular. Where are these prophecies made? I wouldn't mind knowing more about them.
But by nature, I look for hard facts. There are none, for the existance of any God, and so I do not believe in any God. I don't deny that one day I may see hard evidence - it's foolish to deny that anything could happen in the future - but until then I won't believe.
I suppose that makes me a deeply cynical agnostic.
| Subsonic Sound wrote: | ||
Admittedly impressive. But not proof of anything in particular. |
I'm sorry to say this but your intelligence and unbelief will be the eternal death of you one day if you don't change. Ask God to help you! Say this prayer with me!
Lord God Almighty, give me strenght and courage to belive in these things that are written in the bible. I ask that you would have mercy on retched little human like me. You only have power over death. Lord, I beg you to forgive me my sins as I forgive all the sins that have been done against me. I pray that You would give me faith to belive in Your word! Come into my heart, into the place which is preserved for You, and only You! No one else can fill it!
In the name of my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, amen!
Blessings dear friend!
| Whong wrote: |
|
I'm sorry to say this but your intelligence and unbelief will be the eternal death of you one day if you don't change. Ask God to help you! Say this prayer with me! Lord God Almighty, give me strenght and courage to belive in these things that are written in the bible. I ask that you would have mercy on retched little human like me. You only have power over death. Lord, I beg you to forgive me my sins as I forgive all the sins that have been done against me. I pray that You would give me faith to belive in Your word! Come into my heart, into the place which is preserved for You, and only You! No one else can fill it! In the name of my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, amen! Blessings dear friend! |
No.
Here's the thing - I do not believe in God. I do not believe in hell.
If I were to go through the motions and pay lipservice, simply to hedge my bets, on the off chance that hell DOES exist... are you seriously telling me God would be fooled by that?
I do not believe, simple as that. If God wants me to believe in him, he's going to have to give me a reason to.
If I were to say to you that you are condemned to an eternity of nastiness unless you immediatly fall to your knees and give praise to the giant pink goblin who lives in the sun, would you do it?
Many gods, no god or one goddess - depends on a point of view. In other words I am a pantheist: the world is goddess and the goddess is world. i am the goddess. all the pagan gods as well. and you can just say universe/multiverse instead of the goddess. the meaning is the same.
| Subsonic Sound wrote: |
|
No. Here's the thing - I do not believe in God. I do not believe in hell. If I were to go through the motions and pay lipservice, simply to hedge my bets, on the off chance that hell DOES exist... are you seriously telling me God would be fooled by that? I do not believe, simple as that. If God wants me to believe in him, he's going to have to give me a reason to. If I were to say to you that you are condemned to an eternity of nastiness unless you immediatly fall to your knees and give praise to the giant pink goblin who lives in the sun, would you do it? |
Just because you do not believe in it does not mean it doesn't exist. I've heard of people not believing that snow occurs who live in the south, yet every year we get blizzards that drop feet of snow.
God wouldn't be fooled by it, saying a prayer will not save you, you have to believe.
"If God wants me to believe in him, he's going to have to give me a reason to." - Thou shalt not tempt the Lord, thy God. God wants us to believe in Him, yes, but he gives us free will to not do so... because He wants it from your heart.
giant pink goblin who lives on the sun? Yeah, at least religion is founded. At least there are records of Jesus and His crucifixion, at least Christianity makes sense.
Maybe you'll stumble across God later in life, the best of luck to you, I really hope you keep your mind opened.
And just for the record, you can make some good arguments
. I'll try and get some verses out of the Bible, and more fulfilled Biblical prophecies, but it appears no matter how much evidence I can put in front of you, your choice is to not believe.I'd like to point few things,
you cannot find the truth in life by understanding the forces of nature and understanding the intricacies of life with REASON. Reason is by no means unable to comprehend and define what GOD is. Also, what scientists observed and theorized upon are the things that they see by their limited wisdom and knowledge.
Belive me, you're not the only person who had the same views. Several philosophers had and they presented us with views that are beyond the unknown and feed us satisfaction. But that last only a little while and we find ourselves wanting to know more.
Philosphers who had devoted their life knowing the truth ended in the same path. That is, dwelling to something that is supernatural and divine being.
With the exception of Plato, who presented the "first cause or what he calls the first principle (Phaedrus) as the soul" still falls into something that is beyond comprehension.
the thing here gentlemen is that you cannot claim the true one God is that of the Christians or the Muslims or the Hindus..etc for we are absolutely of no position to claim such.
i request for the moderators that this thread be close just so because people are not happy with the way the discussion goes. and with due respect please don't look so highly of ourselves.
you cannot find the truth in life by understanding the forces of nature and understanding the intricacies of life with REASON. Reason is by no means unable to comprehend and define what GOD is. Also, what scientists observed and theorized upon are the things that they see by their limited wisdom and knowledge.
Belive me, you're not the only person who had the same views. Several philosophers had and they presented us with views that are beyond the unknown and feed us satisfaction. But that last only a little while and we find ourselves wanting to know more.
Philosphers who had devoted their life knowing the truth ended in the same path. That is, dwelling to something that is supernatural and divine being.
With the exception of Plato, who presented the "first cause or what he calls the first principle (Phaedrus) as the soul" still falls into something that is beyond comprehension.
the thing here gentlemen is that you cannot claim the true one God is that of the Christians or the Muslims or the Hindus..etc for we are absolutely of no position to claim such.
i request for the moderators that this thread be close just so because people are not happy with the way the discussion goes. and with due respect please don't look so highly of ourselves.
| Soulfire wrote: |
| Just because you do not believe in it does not mean it doesn't exist. |
Just because you believe in God, it does not mean that He exist.
I preffer morals over believing God. There is nothing over morals, not even God. If someone claim that He is over morals, then He must be punished as Jesus was punished for the sake of morals.
Let's look at it like this. You know that everwhere is air. In air is oxygen. Now if some one would believe that it is hydrogen and some that it is nitrogen, it woulden't change anything, because the truth is that it is oxygen. So what I'm telling that opinions don't change the truth, you can believe what you want but the truth remains as is! There is only one God, who has a Son Jesus Christ.
The triune God is and will always be!
The triune God is and will always be!
| Whong wrote: |
| Lord God Almighty, give me strenght and courage to belive in these things that are written in the bible. I ask that you would have mercy on retched little human like me. You only have power over death. Lord, I beg you to forgive me my sins as I forgive all the sins that have been done against me. I pray that You would give me faith to belive in Your word! Come into my heart, into the place which is preserved for You, and only You! No one else can fill it!
In the name of my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, amen! |
Hmm... so now, the religious propaganda has begun to show it's ugly head so openly in the forums, has it?
Here's my prayer:
Dear Spaghetti Monster,
Please forgive my sins, for I have eaten spaghetti today. I ask that you have mercy on me for I ate spaghetti because I like the way it tastes. Give me faith to believe that spaghetti is good for health and will not cause me eternal damnation. In the name of edible Gods, amen!
| Quote: |
| I'm sorry to say this but your intelligence and unbelief will be the eternal death of you one day if you don't change. Ask God to help you! |
Point 1 - Don't Christians have only lifetime? Either you please God enough to go to Heaven in this one chance or get ****** in hell forever? So, why the fancy use of the word "eternal" death? Isn't death eternal anyway?
Oh, and another thing... most people who choose not to believe in God do so because of their experiences and ideas and thoughts that they have had plenty of time to think over. It's not like you're going to be able to achieve miracles by converting someone to the "good" side by scaring them with your ridiculous reference to "eternal" death.
| Soulfire wrote: |
| I really hope you keep your mind opened. |
Likewise, my dear friend, likewise. You do not seem to realize how much this blind belief in the superiority of one race due to its religion causes problems to the world. You blame the Muslims. I am not a Muslim, but with the kind of propaganda I see spreading around me, I cannot help but become more anti-religious.
| dac_nip wrote: |
| the thing here gentlemen is that you cannot claim the true one God is that of the Christians or the Muslims or the Hindus..etc for we are absolutely of no position to claim such. |
| Whong wrote: |
| Let's look at it like this. You know that everwhere is air. In air is oxygen. Now if some one would believe that it is hydrogen and some that it is nitrogen, it woulden't change anything, because the truth is that it is oxygen. So what I'm telling that opinions don't change the truth, you can believe what you want but the truth remains as is! There is only one God, who has a Son Jesus Christ.
The triune God is and will always be! |
Woah there, fellow! You just took a heavy stick, waved it around and hit your own foot! It is true that people have varied opinions, but there can only be one truth. Right uptil this point, your post makes sense. Then comes the part where your stick landed on your own foot. You have just stated your personal belief (that there is only God, and he is the Christian God) as the objective, single truth. It is your opinion... it may be the opinion and belief of majority of the people on the planet (Christianity is the biggest religion on Earth right now), but that doesn't make it true... apply the logic to how the majority of the population on Earth once thought that the world was flat... or how majority of the population once thought that the world was at the center of the universe... you know how these arguments go... apply them, man!
Well we can't come to a conclusion of this can we, so there is one truth and those who find it will be happy! I state this!
SoulFire help me on this tough one! Have you any ideas on this?
I state this!
SoulFire help me on this tough one! Have you any ideas on this?
| Quote: |
| Just because you do not believe in it does not mean it doesn't exist. I've heard of people not believing that snow occurs who live in the south, yet every year we get blizzards that drop feet of snow. |
This is, of course, perfectly true. The flipside though, is that not everything people believe in is true.
| Quote: |
| "If God wants me to believe in him, he's going to have to give me a reason to." - Thou shalt not tempt the Lord, thy God. God wants us to believe in Him, yes, but he gives us free will to not do so... because He wants it from your heart. |
[Assuming his existance for a moment] He made my heart, did he not? If he makes me such that I need proof before belief, why should he then judge me a sinner for being just as he made me?
| Quote: |
| giant pink goblin who lives on the sun? Yeah, at least religion is founded. At least there are records of Jesus and His crucifixion, at least Christianity makes sense. |
Yes, admittedly it was quite a facetious argument. There is of course proof that Jesus existed, if nothing else. Let's put it another way... I am as likely to be converted to Christianity by someone telling me I'm bound for hell if I don't worship, as you might be converted to Islam if someone told you you were bound for hell if you didn't worship Allah.
| Quote: |
| Maybe you'll stumble across God later in life, the best of luck to you, I really hope you keep your mind opened. |
I'm not ruling out that one day I will come across sufficient proof. It's foolish to rule out anything that hasn't happened yet. That's why I don't describe myself as an Atheist, as such. More a deeply cynical agnostic. I don't hold it likely.
| Quote: |
| And just for the record, you can make some good arguments . I'll try and get some verses out of the Bible, and more fulfilled Biblical prophecies, but it appears no matter how much evidence I can put in front of you, your choice is to not believe. |
And you've come up with some interesting counters.
Everyone has their own beliefs, everyone is different. As much as I'd like the entire world to be Christian (as it would get rid of many problems caused by clashing religions), that simply will not happen, and it's not meant to happen.
We could fight forever about the existence of God, and arguments go both ways. We're all at a stalemate and appear to have to wait until after death to see what happens. Some of us will be happy, some of us will be sorry, or nothing might happen at all.
Untill anyone can prove me wrong, my faith in God, and His Son Jesus is unshaken.
And I can try and try again to prove the existence of God to you, but in the end, it is your choice. You must decide to either embrace God, or reject God, and face the consequences (good and bad) of either decision.
We could fight forever about the existence of God, and arguments go both ways. We're all at a stalemate and appear to have to wait until after death to see what happens. Some of us will be happy, some of us will be sorry, or nothing might happen at all.
Untill anyone can prove me wrong, my faith in God, and His Son Jesus is unshaken.
And I can try and try again to prove the existence of God to you, but in the end, it is your choice. You must decide to either embrace God, or reject God, and face the consequences (good and bad) of either decision.
One last question though, if you don't mind - what made you start believing? Were you brought up Christian?
And if you'd been brought up in an Islam country, do you think you'd believe in Allah as fervently as you do in God?
And if you'd been brought up in an Islam country, do you think you'd believe in Allah as fervently as you do in God?
I was raised in a loosely Catholic home, until recently I had always speculated the existence of God, but never reallly went to Church or anything.
But something unexplainable happened, and I started going to Church more and more often, and the more I think about it, the more I fall in total, complete love with God.
For some reason, it just seems right to me. And my philosophy on the entire Christian thing is if, by some off chance, God doesn't exist... I didn't miss out on anything, and lived a good life following Jesus' rule of loving each other.
But if my beliefs are correct, hey, I just made it into Heaven!
I can talk to you more about it if you want/need.
But something unexplainable happened, and I started going to Church more and more often, and the more I think about it, the more I fall in total, complete love with God.
For some reason, it just seems right to me. And my philosophy on the entire Christian thing is if, by some off chance, God doesn't exist... I didn't miss out on anything, and lived a good life following Jesus' rule of loving each other.
But if my beliefs are correct, hey, I just made it into Heaven!
I can talk to you more about it if you want/need.
| Soulfire wrote: | ||||
A man has only two things. Faith, and a Bible. There's a few arguments, and if you search the internet, thousands of "proofs" of the existence of God. Personal Story: I know a person who had cancer. The doctors gave her 6 weeks to live, because they said it was terminal based on all science and all medical studies. It was bad. The prayers poured in, and I prayed, my family prayed... we all prayed. When she went in to the hospital for some more tests, the cancer had disappeared. It was "like magic" as the doctor said. That was not magic working there, it was God. Another thought: If you found a clock and examined the mechanism within it, you would probably think that this intricate mechanism was not the outcome of mere chance, that it had been designed. Now look at the universe; is it possible that such an intricate mechanism, from the orbits of planets round the sun to the cells in your fingernails could all have happened by chance? Surely, this enormously complex mechanism has been designed, and the being that designed it must be God. More: Everything that exists has a cause. However, there must at some time have been a cause prior to all other causes. This 'prime mover' or first cause is necessary to explain existence. This first cause is God. Three Prophecies - Three Destinies - Babylon, that great power in the Middle East, was to lose its empire and its magnificent capital city was to become a site of desolate ruins, shunned by man and beast. And so it came to pass. - Egypt , also a great empire , was to remain a recognisable kingdom. The Egyptians were to continue to inhabit their own land. But they would be constantly dominated by other powers, remaining "a lowly kingdom". And so they have been. - The fate of Israel was not to be like either of these. Scattered from their own land into other countries, and suffering severe persecutions and constant contempt, they were to return to the very land from which they were scattered, and to establish themselves there once again. Let us note carefully the following facts: 1) The prophecies concerning these nations were uttered about 2500 years ago. 2) Their truth has been demonstrated in history right up to the present day. 3) The three cases quoted concern three different powers with three entirely different fates. One was to disappear into oblivion; the second was to remain, but be subject to other nations; the third was to be destroyed, its people expelled and scattered all over the earth, and yet eventually to be restored in the original land. 4) These are not "political forecasts" of clever political observers, but accurate predictions. Certainly no man could've predicted those. |
| Marston wrote: |
| So, basically, what you're saying is that you don't know? |
| Marston wrote: |
 |
You're not making too much sense to me
.You didn't give a real answer to his question.
I think it's all in the individual perspective. For this reason all answers are correct. In fact, one might address gods as "entities" with different values and characteristics, yet you may also put all of these together in one, in one thought, in one energy, one creation, one system and thus one God.
In my individual thought, I think of God as everything there is, as creation, as that which is and is not to ourselves. Thus God is that rock in the field, that ant, or even ourselves, for we are all part of him. Jesus said "The father and I are one..." while many thing this statement proclaims the identification of Jesus as god himself, you might as well say, the father and I are one, for we are all part of God – a creation of God...
Now go ahead and break down my thoughts, word by word as you well know how to do, as you have been doing all this time. Go ahead, proof me wrong, at the end you might as well close your eyes and bind your soul.
In my individual thought, I think of God as everything there is, as creation, as that which is and is not to ourselves. Thus God is that rock in the field, that ant, or even ourselves, for we are all part of him. Jesus said "The father and I are one..." while many thing this statement proclaims the identification of Jesus as god himself, you might as well say, the father and I are one, for we are all part of God – a creation of God...
Now go ahead and break down my thoughts, word by word as you well know how to do, as you have been doing all this time. Go ahead, proof me wrong, at the end you might as well close your eyes and bind your soul.
| Subsonic Sound wrote: | ||
Yes, admittedly it was quite a facetious argument. There is of course proof that Jesus existed, if nothing else. |
Not nearly as much proof as you might think. And, even if he really did exist, there is certainly no proof he was a god.
Thus the giant pink goblin seems as good a bet as any. We know giant things exist. We know pink things exist. We know there is a sun. Show goblins exist, then all you have to do is show a giant pink one lives on the sun and you're good to go.
I'd just like to take a minute to point out that it is not only the case that all religions don't point to the same god, but all subsects of most religions don't even point to the same god. If you're hoping to be worshipping the "right" god just by worshipping any god, you're SOL.
You know, it really does sadden me that so many people reject God. In the end, it is a personal decision... for better or worse.
| Soulfire wrote: |
| You know, it really does sadden me that so many people reject God. In the end, it is a personal decision... for better or worse. |
That's exactly my problem, though. It is a personal decision. It shouldn't be use to write laws. It shouldn't be used to write history or science books. But that's exactly what's happening.
If you want to believe in any one of the multitudes of gods, go nuts. But forcing that belief on others is where I start to have a problem.
I hope that by expressing my opinions, and beliefs in God and Jesus, people don't think I am forcing it upon you. As a Christian, it is my duty to spread the news of Jesus Christ and the word of God, but as another person, it is your duty to accept or reject it.
In no way do I intend to force you into Christianity, because it doesn't work like that. You need to love God on your own, and live for Him on your own, and like previously said, it's a personal decision. As much as I don't agree with your decision to believe in no God or Jesus, I respect that decision.
No worries, I want religious and non-religious people to live in harmony.
In no way do I intend to force you into Christianity, because it doesn't work like that. You need to love God on your own, and live for Him on your own, and like previously said, it's a personal decision. As much as I don't agree with your decision to believe in no God or Jesus, I respect that decision.
No worries, I want religious and non-religious people to live in harmony.
| Soulfire wrote: |
| I hope that by expressing my opinions, and beliefs in God and Jesus, people don't think I am forcing it upon you. As a Christian, it is my duty to spread the news of Jesus Christ and the word of God, but as another person, it is your duty to accept or reject it.
In no way do I intend to force you into Christianity, because it doesn't work like that. You need to love God on your own, and live for Him on your own, and like previously said, it's a personal decision. As much as I don't agree with your decision to believe in no God or Jesus, I respect that decision. No worries, I want religious and non-religious people to live in harmony. |
Oh no! Of course not. Expressing your views is your right. Restricting the expression of other people's views is not.
If all you're doing is sharing what you believe and why you believe what you do with us, I would never stop you. In fact, I'd encourage it, because I live for learning what other believe and why.
For example, if you want to believe the theory of evolution is nonsense, go for it. If you want to say so and tell us why you believe that, go for it. If you want to try to convince others to believe that, I reserve the right to step in and provide contradictory evidence, but I won't say you don't have the right to try and convince others (I'll just exercise my right to try and convince them the other way). However, if you try to force that belief on others - for example by rewriting science texts - I will no longer be your friend, I'll be actively trying to stop you.
I don't see any reason why religious and non-religious people can't live together as long as they respect each other's worlds and don't try to force their beliefs on the other world (of course, the same goes for people of different religions living together). Scientists shouldn't try to rewrite the bible, and Christians shouldn't try to rewrite the science books. Certainly both parties can have and share opinions on the other party's beliefs. Scientists have every right to criticize the science or historicity of the bible, and Christians have every right to criticize the limitations and internal contradictions of science. Just don't poop on the other guy's lawn.
You have to be one of the cooler atheists I've ever met (assuming you are atheist, of course).
I believe ther is one God. I also believe that no one has the complete and total truth to that God. I believe that God is way too complex for mere mortals to understand everything about that God so every race and culture in the world has made up stories and myths to try to understand God. That's what we call religion. God didn't create religion. Humans did. Sometimes to try to get a grasp of Gods full potential that God has been given many names and personallities.
I believe that no matter what religion you follow or what name you call God we are all worshiping the same God. Kind of like one mountain with a lot of different paths leading up to the top. Each path may look different and may go a different way but the goal is the same.
I also know that you folks that think you have the only one truth way or path will disagree. Just don't throw stones at the people on the other paths please.
I believe that no matter what religion you follow or what name you call God we are all worshiping the same God. Kind of like one mountain with a lot of different paths leading up to the top. Each path may look different and may go a different way but the goal is the same.
I also know that you folks that think you have the only one truth way or path will disagree. Just don't throw stones at the people on the other paths please.
Aw, thanks. ^_^
I'm not sure what I am. I suppose it varies day to day. Agnostic? Weak atheist? Some days even pantheist I guess. ^_^ The topic of God doesn't come up much in my day-to-day life, so I've never felt obligated to pin it down.
Of course, I wear hats when I have to. When I'm defending Christianity against atheist assault, I try to think like a Christian; I try to learn, understand and accept, temporarily at the very least, the tenets of the faith. When I'm defending Islam against Christian assault, I try take on the role of a Muslim, and so on and so forth. My reason for immersing myself in those worldviews is that I have to convince myself that what I'm defending makes rational sense in the context of what I'm defending.
For instance, I couldn't defend a Christian church requiring payment for attending a sermon, because that's wrong within the context of Christianity. When I think like a Christian, I realize that that position is undefendable, but as a non-Christian that isn't necessarily true. I mean, it's called a service, you go to get something out of it, payment just seems logical. But from a Christian perspective, it's not right. So before I defend any Christian belief or practice, I try to get in the mind of a Christian and determine whether or not that belief is kosher in that worldview or not.
So today, maybe I'm agnostic. Tomorrow atheist. But then the next day I could be a Christian. Or a Bhuddist (although... not so much a Bhuddist that I'd lose the hair). ^_^ Who knows?
I'm not sure what I am. I suppose it varies day to day. Agnostic? Weak atheist? Some days even pantheist I guess. ^_^ The topic of God doesn't come up much in my day-to-day life, so I've never felt obligated to pin it down.
Of course, I wear hats when I have to. When I'm defending Christianity against atheist assault, I try to think like a Christian; I try to learn, understand and accept, temporarily at the very least, the tenets of the faith. When I'm defending Islam against Christian assault, I try take on the role of a Muslim, and so on and so forth. My reason for immersing myself in those worldviews is that I have to convince myself that what I'm defending makes rational sense in the context of what I'm defending.
For instance, I couldn't defend a Christian church requiring payment for attending a sermon, because that's wrong within the context of Christianity. When I think like a Christian, I realize that that position is undefendable, but as a non-Christian that isn't necessarily true. I mean, it's called a service, you go to get something out of it, payment just seems logical. But from a Christian perspective, it's not right. So before I defend any Christian belief or practice, I try to get in the mind of a Christian and determine whether or not that belief is kosher in that worldview or not.
So today, maybe I'm agnostic. Tomorrow atheist. But then the next day I could be a Christian. Or a Bhuddist (although... not so much a Bhuddist that I'd lose the hair). ^_^ Who knows?
| Soulfire wrote: |
|
For some reason, it just seems right to me. And my philosophy on the entire Christian thing is if, by some off chance, God doesn't exist... I didn't miss out on anything, and lived a good life following Jesus' rule of loving each other. But if my beliefs are correct, hey, I just made it into Heaven! |
But Muslim hell is awaitting you, because you do not believe Muhammad as messenger of God.
The Muslims are wrong, their beliefs aren't correct. While I can't prove it to you here and now, you can't prove me wrong either.
| Soulfire wrote: |
| The Muslims are wrong, their beliefs aren't correct. While I can't prove it to you here and now, you can't prove me wrong either. |
But by chance, if their believes are true, hell is awaitting you.
| nam_siddharth wrote: | ||
But by chance, if their believes are true, hell is awaitting you. |
It's a risk I'm willing to take, in the name of my God.
| Soulfire wrote: |
| The Muslims are wrong, their beliefs aren't correct. |
You're trying to be diplomatic, on the one hadn, by saying you hope that your posts do not convey the idea that you are forcing your beliefs on others. On the other, you make ridiculous facts out of your beliefs by passing your your religion's opinion as truth?
Well, to me, religion is just a set of rules designed to control your life by those in power. All religions teach basically the same thing, and all religions, when strictly followed, reduce your capacity to love and cherish all other people of all other religions. I know you think that the ever-righteous Christianity teaches one to love, and love all, and love unconditionally, yet I make that statement, and will post my logic behind writing that if you need it.
| Quote: |
| While I can't prove it to you here and now, you can't prove me wrong either. |
Let's make a deal... no proof, no making ridiculous statements and passing them off to be the truths of the universe. Deal?
Oh, and just because you can't prove something wrong doesn't mean it's right. That would be simply logic. Jurors make mistakes while charging innocent men. They have been proven wrong, and yet these innocents were right. On the other hand, a man may get an excellent lawyer and go scot-free after commiting an obvious crime. Just because the prosecution could not prove him wrong doesn't mean he was right.
| Soulfire wrote: |
| The Muslims are wrong, their beliefs aren't correct. While I can't prove it to you here and now, you can't prove me wrong either. |
you know what. you should have just kept that to yourself if you cannot prove anything..and by any chance, even if you're given eons of time. you wont be able to do it. you're not in the position to do so. and by the way, consider that self-centered attitude of yours..
As Christians we do not have to prove anything to unbelievers as basically we do not have anything in common with them, as it is written:
2 Corinthians 6
14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15 What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people." 17 "Therefore come out from them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you." 18 "I will be a Father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty."
2 Corinthians 4
3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
As Christians, we are also told to withdraw from arguments and disputes:
1 Timothy
3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, 4 he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, 5 useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself.
2 Corinthians 6
14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15 What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people." 17 "Therefore come out from them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you." 18 "I will be a Father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty."
2 Corinthians 4
3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
As Christians, we are also told to withdraw from arguments and disputes:
1 Timothy
3 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, 4 he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, 5 useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself.
| altec wrote: |
| As Christians we do not have to prove anything to unbelievers as basically we do not have anything in common with them, as it is written:
|
How do you reconcile those with 1 Peter 3:15 which tells us to always be prepared to answer when anyone asks us the reason for our hope?
| nam_siddharth wrote: | ||
Just because you believe in God, it does not mean that He exist. I preffer morals over believing God. There is nothing over morals, not even God. If someone claim that He is over morals, then He must be punished as Jesus was punished for the sake of morals. |
Morals and morality are the concepts as controversial as the god. They depend on your perspective and your society. Just as different cultures have different gods, the same way they have different standards of morality. What is considered moral in one culture may be forbidden in other. e.g. meat eating is not considered immoral in christianity or islam but to kill any animal for taste of tongue is considered highly immoral and sinful in hinduism or buddhism.
| Subsonic Sound wrote: |
| One last question though, if you don't mind - what made you start believing? Were you brought up Christian?
And if you'd been brought up in an Islam country, do you think you'd believe in Allah as fervently as you do in God? |
The culture you are brought up in has everlasting effect on your mind, beliefs and way of thinking. majority people accept their birth religion as the best and their god as the supreme of all. they are subconciously brainwashed.
| Whong wrote: |
| Let's look at it like this. You know that everwhere is air. In air is oxygen. Now if some one would believe that it is hydrogen and some that it is nitrogen, it woulden't change anything, because the truth is that it is oxygen. So what I'm telling that opinions don't change the truth, you can believe what you want but the truth remains as is! There is only one God, who has a Son Jesus Christ.
The triune God is and will always be! |
Again you are only giving your opinion as anyone else. If there is debate regarding oxygen, hydrogen and nitrogen, what makes you think your option is correct. You say 'You know that everwhere is air. In air is oxygen.' o.k. dear. but we also know there is hydrogen and nitrogen in air. Whats the point? Whatever argument you and soulfire have put in are applicable to gods of other religion also. Only if you take trouble to read their scripture.
I have no objection to the last statement. Jesus Christ was a son of God. But I will certainly disagree if you claim that he was the ONLY son.
| Soulfire wrote: |
| The Muslims are wrong, their beliefs aren't correct. While I can't prove it to you here and now, you can't prove me wrong either. |
This is the worst attitude I have ever seen. That was very negative. It really pained my heart though i am not a muslim. It is on the same level as muslim jehadi terrorist. They also think about christianity the same way though express it in different way.
Mr. Soulfire....Nobody has stopped you from following your beliefs, religion or way of life. But start respecting others beliefs too. Dont make such accusations. Especially if you cannot prove them.
I'll just make a couple of quick points:
As a Christian, I don't believe that Atheists, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Satanists, Wiccans, Occultists, or any other forms of belief are correct. That means that to me they are wrong, to Soulfire they are wrong. We are well within our rights to express such a feeling because we know the truth. Whether it is prudent or not to do so depends on the circumstances.
I respect everyone's ability to believe in something. I don't not necessarily respect what they believe.
God has proven Himself to me time and time again over the last few years especially. But I knew He existed before any of this stuff. It is not simply a matter of believing, I know He exists and that the Bible is the Truth and comes straight from God.
It pains me to see people so reluctant to believe in God, but I am not going to force you to believe in Him. I can't do that, I'm not going to try. As Christians, we are required to be a good witness, to set a good example and to try to be like Christ. Nowhere in the bible does it say we are to tie people down and say BELIEVE OR DIE.
What you must understand though, is that Christians are also human. We stuff up - none of us are perfect and no Christian should claim to be because they should know much better than that.
My last point is one on Evolution: Evolution can NOT be observed. Scientists have never, and WILL never witness the metamorphosis of a 'basic' cell into a skin, heart, lung, stomach or brain cell. Scientists will NEVER witness any creature being born with fully functional wings where they should have legs, or fully functional legs where they should have wings. Scientists have never found any LIVING creatures in an intermediate stage, and they've got MILLIONS of species to choose from That alone is proof of the invalidity of genetic evolution.
As a Christian, I don't believe that Atheists, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Satanists, Wiccans, Occultists, or any other forms of belief are correct. That means that to me they are wrong, to Soulfire they are wrong. We are well within our rights to express such a feeling because we know the truth. Whether it is prudent or not to do so depends on the circumstances.
I respect everyone's ability to believe in something. I don't not necessarily respect what they believe.
God has proven Himself to me time and time again over the last few years especially. But I knew He existed before any of this stuff. It is not simply a matter of believing, I know He exists and that the Bible is the Truth and comes straight from God.
It pains me to see people so reluctant to believe in God, but I am not going to force you to believe in Him. I can't do that, I'm not going to try. As Christians, we are required to be a good witness, to set a good example and to try to be like Christ. Nowhere in the bible does it say we are to tie people down and say BELIEVE OR DIE.
What you must understand though, is that Christians are also human. We stuff up - none of us are perfect and no Christian should claim to be because they should know much better than that.
My last point is one on Evolution: Evolution can NOT be observed. Scientists have never, and WILL never witness the metamorphosis of a 'basic' cell into a skin, heart, lung, stomach or brain cell. Scientists will NEVER witness any creature being born with fully functional wings where they should have legs, or fully functional legs where they should have wings. Scientists have never found any LIVING creatures in an intermediate stage, and they've got MILLIONS of species to choose from That alone is proof of the invalidity of genetic evolution.
| a_dubDesign wrote: | ||
How do you reconcile those with 1 Peter 3:15 which tells us to always be prepared to answer when anyone asks us the reason for our hope? |
1 Peter 3
8 Finally, all of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble. 9 Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing. 10 For, "Whoever would love life and see good days must keep his tongue from evil and his lips from deceitful speech. 11 He must turn from evil and do good; he must seek peace and pursue it. 12 For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and his ears are attentive to their prayer, but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil." 13 Who is going to harm you if you are eager to do good? 14 But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. "Do not fear what they fear; do not be frightened." 15 But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,
The reason why I said that we don't have to prove anything to unbelievers because proving to them is futile. They need proof. They need tangible evidence. They don't accept Faith in God.
John 20:29
Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
All we need to do is to give them a reason for our hope, and avoid debate. Visit every forums, I'm sure there is always a debate, saying the Christians don't have proof and that God doesn't exists, and etc. etc. They love to attack our faith and always target Christians, their favorite. I wonder why they don't attack other religions. We told them the truth and yet they can't receive it. It goes on non-stop and things usually can go ugly.
So, what do we do in this kind of situation? Withdraw.
Matthew 10:
14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. 15 I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.
I dont think that you have to HAVE proof at all to know that God exists. Say what you want, i dont care, because in the end, the righteous will be rewarded, and those who have accepted the Lord will be saved, and taken to place greater than no other, Heaven. Everything will make sense, but it would be in the end of the world, too late by then for most!
Although they don't share the same belief as we have, we should treat them no less than ourselves. They are as precious to God as we are.
There are hundreds of millions of Hindus, Muslims, Buddhist, Taoist out there who do not know Christ. I believe there will come a time that they will know the true God and God has a way according to His plan for all humanity. God does not wish anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance and whosoever believes in His Son, shall have everlasting life. Jesus did not come to condemn the world but to save the world.
We, Christians should not be proud that we are saved or feel special. We are saved because of God's mercy on us. Without God, we are the same as the whole world and nothing good we do will ever make up for our sins.
There are hundreds of millions of Hindus, Muslims, Buddhist, Taoist out there who do not know Christ. I believe there will come a time that they will know the true God and God has a way according to His plan for all humanity. God does not wish anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance and whosoever believes in His Son, shall have everlasting life. Jesus did not come to condemn the world but to save the world.
We, Christians should not be proud that we are saved or feel special. We are saved because of God's mercy on us. Without God, we are the same as the whole world and nothing good we do will ever make up for our sins.
| Soulfire wrote: | ||
God wouldn't be fooled by it, saying a prayer will not save you, you have to believe. |
No you don't, you just have to do good. If someone didn't believe in you, would it really bother you deeply? You'd probably just shake your head with a bemused smile. And if that person that didn't believe in you was always helping your children out, how would you feel about them? Then you *really* wouldn't give a hoot whether the person believed in your or not, you would be *very* found of the person. So why do you think God would be any different in this regard?
| Soulfire wrote: |
| I'll try and get some verses out of the Bible, and more fulfilled Biblical prophecies, but it appears no matter how much evidence I can put in front of you, your choice is to not believe. |
This is a doomed approach, I know from personal experience. When I was 8 I decided that the only thing in life worth while was to serve God, and I wanted to become a priest, pastor or theologian. I began studying the Bible and thinking about religious issues. Pretty soon I started asking tough questions like 'why did God require Jesus to be murdered in order to forgive our sins, why couldn't he skip the murder and just get straight to forgiving our sins?" After a years of coming up with questions that no adult could answer I became very alarmed. I realized that if I continued studying the Bible that I was going to become an atheist, which depressed and frightened me. I abruptly stopped, but by the time I hit puberty at 12 the questions and doubts could no longer be suppressed. I was an atheist from the age of 12 to 21.
I was 20 when my father finally found the key, and slowly it wrought it’s magic spell on me. After a year and a half of testing the practice that my father had convinced me to experiment with, my atheism dissolved away. The hard part was getting me to test it the first time. He asked me numerous times and I refused, but finally he figured out a way by aggressively prodding my ego with a pointed challenge, saying emphatically, “If you call yourself a *scientist* you will *test* this, because this makes predictions that are *testable*.” It was like telling a mountain climber, ‘There is a huge mountain over there and you’re not going to climb it?!?!’ The very first time I tried it it hit me right between the eyes. I was not convinced by any means, but it was such a dead ringer that I could not dismiss it out of hand anymore either. And over the course of a year and a half of continuing to experiment with it, it transformed my life.
Now, I have a 200 IQ and this practice is geared towards people who not only have to have a high IQ but also a high EQ (emotional quotient, i.e. the ability to related, put your self in someone else’s moccasins and be thoughtful of others). So I’m not saying that this would work for most atheists, but for thoughtful atheists which Subsonic sounds like, it could possibly do the trick.
Not too long ago it was practiced by many well educated Asians, but the atheist communists wiped out the great majority of the practitioners. I’m not a proselytizer and this won’t work for most atheists because the practice is simply too abstract and difficult to decipher for most people. So I’ll only go into it further if someone asks me to elucidate.
==========
And note, Soulfire, that even after my conversion to theism, it took another 5 or 6 years before I put any credence in Jesus or the Bible. I remember when I first went through the quantum leap and almost overnight I was suddenly absolutely convinced of God’s existence, I could suddenly see God’s hand in science and all Eastern religions, and thought to myself, “Wow! I’ll bet that I’ll see the same parallels in the Bible!” I picked up a Bible and started reading. Almost right away it felt as though I was looking through a distorted lens, I held the book closer and further away feeling almost disoriented. Not finding it in one spot I’d flip several chapters and start again. After an hour or so I gave up.
It wasn’t until 5 or 6 years later that I was studying under a Tibetan Lama who taught me about the Catholic saints that they love the most that I finally started to see the hand of God in Christianity too. But outside of the life of St. Teresa, St. Joan and St. Francis, it was still very hard and it took me some time too see the hand of God in Jesus and the Bible. Now, I don’t blame this on Jesus, I blame it on the Romans, but that is another thread (Bible Compiled By Demonic Roman Empire).
| dac_nip wrote: | ||
you know what. you should have just kept that to yourself if you cannot prove anything..and by any chance, even if you're given eons of time. you wont be able to do it. you're not in the position to do so. and by the way, consider that self-centered attitude of yours.. |
I can prove it!
I have tremendous respect for every other world religion and I have tremendous respect for Mohammed, even more than for Jesus, and yet he was illiterate and was deceived by an entity that he could only hear but not see. Not having a decent spiritual education he did not know how to judge the voices that he heard.
Mohammed did not write the Quran, it was dictated to him by an unseen entity that scared the living daylights out of him. It took him days to get over the fright and to start being deceived by his wife and family members who greedily liked what the entity was telling Mohammed. If you're interested in further evidence see my post in the Islam or Not Islam thread, on the 2nd page, near the bottom.
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| altec wrote: |
| As Christians we do not have to prove anything to unbelievers as basically we do not have anything in common with them, as it is written:
2 Corinthians 6 14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15 What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? |
You are equating atheism with demon or Satan worship because of reading a bad translation of the Bible and not being a very thoughtful person. Try reading the Message Bible, it does a dramatically better job of capturing the subtle nuances of Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic:
[14] Don't become partners with those who reject God. How can you make a partnership out of right and wrong? That's not partnership; that's war. Is light best friends with dark? [15] Does Christ go strolling with the Devil? Do trust and mistrust hold hands?
2 Corinthians 6:14-15
Now what does it mean to reject God? If a sincere seeker searches for God in a Godless world and becomes discouraged and dejected, is this a rejection of God? If a sincere seeker looks at the thoughtlessness of many intolerant Christians who are not doing God’s work, or who say distorted things such as you just did, who is to blame when the seeker is repulsed and turns away from such thoughtlessness and the religion associated with it? You could very well have contributed to someone's atheism by demonstrating such a lack of Godliness and compassionate insight into the suffering of others. Thoughtlessness is a sin, your intolerant beliefs harm your soul and bar your path to Heaven. As a Christian you should be gravely concerned about this matter.
=============
Soulfire, maybe I’m just catching you at a different time, but you seem to be gloriously reformed in this regard. I am very impressed with the way that you have conducted this thread!
(Although I take issue with your view of every other world religion except Islam.)
| altec wrote: |
| There are hundreds of millions of Hindus, Muslims, Buddhist, Taoist out there who do not know Christ. |
Well, at least you don't view them the way you do atheists. Or perhaps I've misinterpreted you.
All of these religions pay special homage to Jesus. (What about Jews?)
Toaism and some sects of Buddhism and Hindusm are superior to Christianity in my opinion. I am quite convinced that the Second Comming of Christ will not be especially fond of Christianity. If Christ where here today he would have a much easier time gettting through to them than to most Christians.
| altec wrote: |
| We, Christians should not be proud that we are saved or feel special.
|
With that attitude you are not saved. You are saved through good works, not lip service and smugness.
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| amicalindia wrote: | ||
This is the worst attitude I have ever seen. That was very negative. It really pained my heart though i am not a muslim. It is on the same level as muslim jehadi terrorist. They also think about christianity the same way though express it in different way. Mr. Soulfire....Nobody has stopped you from following your beliefs, religion or way of life. But start respecting others beliefs too. Dont make such accusations. Especially if you cannot prove them. |
I have to stand up for Soufire here. You are simply not familiar with Islam and what you are saying is not true. The Quran reads like the most angry Hellfire and brimstone sermon you could possibly imagine. Islam is a religion of hate. Look at the interaction that I had with an extremely moderate Muslim in the Support the Danish thread. At the end of the debate, in disgust his parting shot was that I would not submit to the will of Allah because I did not believe in the Quran. Refusing to submit to God’s will is being in rebellion against God, which is basically to call someone a Satanist, at least that is the underlying implication of that commonly used Islamic expression, even if most Muslims haven’t really thought it through.
I've studied Islam for many years and it is dramatically more intolerant then Christianity. Different sects of Islam consider each other atheist. While Catholics and Protestants might not always get along, can you imagine what it would be like if they were so intolerant of each other that they considered each other to be atheists?
And Quranic intolerance of atheists is even more extreme. Conservative Christian attempts to sight Biblical references that supposedly state intolerance for atheists are distortions of ambiguous verses, but the Quran is quite explicit, endlessly riling against the evil jealous atheists that are all going to Hell. While it doesn’t explicitly make a link, it talks about atheists in terms that Christianity would only apply to demon worshipers and Satanists by applying motivations to them are overtly sinister and deceptive. No Muslim, not even the most moderate Muslim, questions that all atheists are evil and going to Hell.
| mike1reynolds wrote: |
| While Catholics and Protestants might not always get along, can you imagine what it would be like if they were so intolerant of each other that they considered each other to be atheists? |
Maybe one day you should listen to Ian Paisley preach. People like him consider Catholics to be heathens. They're a minority now, but in the past, Christians from different sects didn't just call each other heathens, blasphemers and atheists (yup, some Christian sects were called atheist by other sects -- Quakers were persecuted for being "atheists"), but they would fight full-scale wars over details of doctrine. Swift mocked them in Gulliver's Travels, representing them as the Bigendupians and the Lilliputians, fighting war after war over whether eggs should go in an egg cup big-end-up or little-end-up. The reason you see Christians tolerating each other now, is that in the 18th and 19th centuries, they gradually grew tired of the wars they'd been fighting for many hundreds of years, purely over religion, and that secularism took over.
And I do mean many hundreds of years. Episodes of religious violence (involving rioting, kidnapping, lynching, arson) by Christians against rival sects including Jews are documented from as early as the second century AD.
And do we need to mention the horrors of the Inquisition, the genocide of the Cathars, and the Huguenots?
Primitive people will always find a justification for their violence even if one is not readily available. The issue is how much justification does the Bible give for such actions verses the Quran? Read the Quran and get back to me. If you read it there will be no possible point of contention, not even with someone such as yourself. It is that obviously rabid.
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Last edited by mike1reynolds on Sat Apr 22, 2006 10:44 pm; edited 3 times in total
I think all those religions which beleive in one GOD point to the same god.
The basic concept of god in all these religions is the same.
The basic concept of god in all these religions is the same.
I read about various gods and godesses, whever I believe in them as an actual physical reality is something else, but each have their uses Bo) so far the least useful I have found is the one mentioned in the bible and the kuran, but this is just on a personal level, I respect other peoples opinion as long as they respect mine.
hey guyz.... it seems like here every body want.. people to be christians.. and no other religion is true... but let me tell you this thing... all relegion is true and it all point to the same god... all relegion is different path to same god.. it is like all rivers flow to the same sea...
don't think.. bible is the only book that did.. accurate predictions...
to soulfire: please respect other relegions... so far.. you are no where near christianity.... You do not respect other's words, custom, belifs, you do not love others (if you love others, then you wouldn't hurt them by your words), your bible it self says... love your enemeis right?...
... and I will have more proofs in your way of talking.. that you are not at all a christain beliver.. as you think you are...
don't think.. bible is the only book that did.. accurate predictions...
to soulfire: please respect other relegions... so far.. you are no where near christianity.... You do not respect other's words, custom, belifs, you do not love others (if you love others, then you wouldn't hurt them by your words), your bible it self says... love your enemeis right?...
... and I will have more proofs in your way of talking.. that you are not at all a christain beliver.. as you think you are...
| swapnalokam wrote: |
| hey guyz.... it seems like here every body want.. people to be christians.. and no other religion is true... but let me tell you this thing... all relegion is true and it all point to the same god... all relegion is different path to same god.. it is like all rivers flow to the same sea...
don't think.. bible is the only book that did.. accurate predictions... to soulfire: please respect other relegions... so far.. you are no where near christianity.... You do not respect other's words, custom, belifs, you do not love others (if you love others, then you wouldn't hurt them by your words), your bible it self says... love your enemeis right?... ... and I will have more proofs in your way of talking.. that you are not at all a christain beliver.. as you think you are... |
Who are you to tell me who I respect and don't respect? My religion says everyone who does not believe in it goes to Hell, I do NOT want people to go to Hell, so I am trying to spread the word of Jesus Christ.
So, spreading my religion is disrespectful now? Whatever. You're overstepping your boundaries a bit, don't you think?
| Soulfire wrote: |
|
Who are you to tell me who I respect and don't respect? My religion says everyone who does not believe in it goes to Hell, I do NOT want people to go to Hell, so I am trying to spread the word of Jesus Christ. So, spreading my religion is disrespectful now? Whatever. You're overstepping your boundaries a bit, don't you think? |
Soulfire, it saddens me that your religious zeal is blinding you from what people are telling you about your approach. I've seen other people say things similiar to what swapnalokam has said in other threads, so its not just an isolated thing. It might be time to do a little self-eval as opposed to instantly putting the focus on other people every time.
*edited to change "to focus" to "the focus"
Last edited by a_dubDesign on Mon Apr 24, 2006 10:27 am; edited 1 time in total
Everyone, atheist, lost people, every religion, will come to know the true God. For He will reveal Himself in the last days.
Romans 14:
10 You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11 It is written: "'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'" 12 So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God. 13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another.
Revelation 7:
9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice: "Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb." 11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying: "Amen! Praise and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God for ever and ever. Amen!"
Joel 2:
32 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the Lord has said, among the survivors whom the Lord calls.
Romans 2
6 God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.
Romans 14:
10 You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11 It is written: "'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'" 12 So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God. 13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another.
Revelation 7:
9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice: "Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb." 11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying: "Amen! Praise and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God for ever and ever. Amen!"
Joel 2:
32 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the Lord has said, among the survivors whom the Lord calls.
Romans 2
6 God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.
| Soulfire wrote: |
| My religion says everyone who does not believe in it goes to Hell, I do NOT want people to go to Hell, so I am trying to spread the word of Jesus Christ.
|
You are taking the Bible out of context. Biblical authors had no contact with any other monotheistic religions. They were surrounded by demonic religions that have all died out. You are applying Biblical comments about demonic religions that denied God's existence to living monotheistic world religions that do believe in God.
| Soulfire wrote: | ||
Who are you to tell me who I respect and don't respect? My religion says everyone who does not believe in it goes to Hell, I do NOT want people to go to Hell, so I am trying to spread the word of Jesus Christ. So, spreading my religion is disrespectful now? Whatever. You're overstepping your boundaries a bit, don't you think? |
And who are you to say us to believe in Jesus. My religion says that Jesus was son of Demon. In this way, you are spreading a demonic religion. It is not only disrespectful, but unhuman, and demonic.
| nam_siddharth wrote: |
| And who are you to say us to believe in Jesus. My religion says that Jesus was son of Demon. In this way, you are spreading a demonic religion. It is not only disrespectful, but unhuman, and demonic. |
You don't believe in God but you do believe in demons?
| mike1reynolds wrote: | ||
You don't believe in God but you do believe in demons? |
No. I nigher believe in God, nor in Demon. But as soulfire is free to believe that Jesus was sone of God, others are free to believe taht Jesus was sone of Demon.
| nam_siddharth wrote: | ||||
No. I nigher believe in God, nor in Demon. But as soulfire is free to believe that Jesus was sone of God, others are free to believe taht Jesus was sone of Demon. |
You said that your religion says that Jesus was the son of a demon.
There is an old saying in English that two wrongs don't make a right. Since two thirds of Christians are not fundamentalists or conservatives and do not believe as Soulfire does, doesn't this make your attitude equivolent to Soulfire's?
I, being a Muslim would like to ask christians where it is said in Quran that Christians or people from any other religion will go to hell? As a christian, u can't call muslims as totally wrong, becoz your own prophets are our earlier prophets. And if u can find a muslim saying bad things about other's prophets, Then I can also show u a christain hurling obscene abuses at his own prophet!!! u can't deny this, can u?
I am very dissapointed when SOULFIRE writes incorrect information about other religions.
Let me tell u something about Islam to cool your hatred of this religion:
- In Islam, there is complete freedom of religion. One is free to choose whichever religion he wants to choose.
- Muslims are allowed to preach their religion and not enforce it.
- People of other religions must have equal status in an Islamic country(which in reality isn't).
- And yes, there is hell for non-beleivers, but non-beleivers are NOT defined as only those who don't beleive in ONE GOD, but according to quranic definitions of a non-beleiver, there are many many bad characteristics which are attributed to a non-beleiver.
Now I would like to ask my christian freinds to prove any of these points wrong with reference to Quran and life of our Holy Prophet. Go on and expose as much wrong as u find in these!
And it is surprising for me to read such moderate and justified opinions of those who seem to me to be HINDUS or Budhists, as compared to opinions by christians. I used to think otherwise.
I am very dissapointed when SOULFIRE writes incorrect information about other religions.
Let me tell u something about Islam to cool your hatred of this religion:
- In Islam, there is complete freedom of religion. One is free to choose whichever religion he wants to choose.
- Muslims are allowed to preach their religion and not enforce it.
- People of other religions must have equal status in an Islamic country(which in reality isn't).
- And yes, there is hell for non-beleivers, but non-beleivers are NOT defined as only those who don't beleive in ONE GOD, but according to quranic definitions of a non-beleiver, there are many many bad characteristics which are attributed to a non-beleiver.
Now I would like to ask my christian freinds to prove any of these points wrong with reference to Quran and life of our Holy Prophet. Go on and expose as much wrong as u find in these!
And it is surprising for me to read such moderate and justified opinions of those who seem to me to be HINDUS or Budhists, as compared to opinions by christians. I used to think otherwise.
| ibay wrote: |
|
- In Islam, there is complete freedom of religion. One is free to choose whichever religion he wants to choose. - Muslims are allowed to preach their religion and not enforce it. - People of other religions must have equal status in an Islamic country(which in reality isn't). |
Ok, this question comes from a place of total humaility and misunderstanding, so please don't take any offense at all, its a genuine question.
I've heard your first point before, but I've aslo heard the story of the guy who converted from Islam to Christanity and some people were calling for the government to kill him. I've also heard many things about Islam's overall hatred/disliking of Christanity overall. Is this something that has just grown out of the culture or something that has some sort of roots in the actual religion?
That third point I don't really understand. Equal status as in citizenship? And why is it that they must have this equal status? What are the rewards of it?
Thanks ibay, take care.
| Quote: |
| all relegion is true |
I agree. I think that religion is a way for people to figure out the meaning in life, some people need it, but others are perfectly fine without it. It has been shown that monks of various religions, who truly believe in their faith, display very similar impulses in the brain while praying or meditating. Religion should put the practitioner at peace with himself and his surroundings. Any religion that promotes being good to living beings and respect is a good religion. I do not see why there cannot be multiple gods. There are billions of humans, why must there only be one god?
a dub design, i think what ibay meant was that true Islam does not promote violence. The issue concerning the conversion was extremism, and I doubt it represents the sentiments of the majority of true practioners of Islam.
As for people of other faiths going to hell, I think that is absurd. I think that only a god starved for attention and power hungry, would demand that people worship only him, or go to hell. A good god would recognize the good in most religions and would judge people based on actions, not the faith they profess.
| a_dubDesign wrote: |
|
Ok, this question comes from a place of total humaility and misunderstanding, so please don't take any offense at all, its a genuine question. |
Don't worry pal, Im not gonna explode here if I find u offensive
| a_dubDesign wrote: |
|
I've heard your first point before, but I've aslo heard the story of the guy who converted from Islam to Christanity and some people were calling for the government to kill him. I've also heard many things about Islam's overall hatred/disliking of Christanity overall. Is this something that has just grown out of the culture or something that has some sort of roots in the actual religion? |
If u quote individual examples of all Muslims misdeeds in the name of Islam, u will find one-greater-than-the-other cases of hypocrisy which no one can explain nad no one can understand.
I think you must first differentiate between what a religion says and what people claiming to be its followers, say. It is an open fact amongst educated Muslims that Islam witnessed its fall a long time ago and now it is only experiencing destruction and further degradation. So, Muslims of today have become hypocrites and maybe, there is no Muslim country on earth which is following Islam in any sense. Because of their failures, Muslims just beleive in those things which are easy to say and easy to act upon. Like performing religious rituals has become the most important part of Islamic way of life. Can anyone beleive in this Islamic statement:
"Cleanliness equals half of our Faith" but unfortunately most Muslims ignore this as it is a difficult practice to keep oneself and his surroundings clean at all times. There can be uncountable examples like these.
| a_dubDesign wrote: |
|
That third point I don't really understand. Equal status as in citizenship? And why is it that they must have this equal status? What are the rewards of it? |
Ya, I meant equal status in citizenship, religious freedom, and respect.
and why should there be reward for this? Isn't a soceity free of religious hatred and profiling a reward in itself? Equal status is not for religions only, it is for all races, colors and castes. If I am not wrong, Islam was the first religion to accept blacks and all other races as equal human beings.
As a result, negros were freed from slavery and were given equal respect and freedom. Now that the christians are at the height of their glory, Does this happen in Christian USA nowadays?
I am extremely impressed with the character of Mohammed, but not his education and discernment. I would like to exclude Mohammed from the debate and focus exclusively on the entity that dictated the Quran too him.
So how do you know that it was the Archangel Jibriel and not a sinister charlatan?
I had a lengthy debate with sciondesteny about this at the end of the "Support the Danish" thread. I got a bit testy with him because he wasn't really addressing my argument about this entity, but I will make every attempt to avoid getting emotional in this debate.
Here is another arguement, not made there, but which I also make to fundamentalist and conservative Christians who claim that atheists will go to hell, as is so often said in the Quran, but not the Bible:
If someone didn't believe in you, would you be angry, or would you shake your head in bemused mirth? And if this person who didn't believe in you were always helping your children, how would you feel about them then? You would probably be quite fond of this person, regardless of their odd opinion of you. Is this not how you would feel? Then why would God feel any different?
The real crux of my argument with sciondestiny surrounded his quote from the Quran in which it states that disbelievers are jealous of Muslims. Jealousy implies covetousness, what could a disbeliever covet in this regard? The hidden implication is that the disbelieve does not sincerely disbelieve, he is in fact jealous of a Muslim's connection with God. This is not disbelief, it is hostility towards God, like Cain. It implies that disbelievers in the Quran must hate God.
So how do you know that it was the Archangel Jibriel and not a sinister charlatan?
I had a lengthy debate with sciondesteny about this at the end of the "Support the Danish" thread. I got a bit testy with him because he wasn't really addressing my argument about this entity, but I will make every attempt to avoid getting emotional in this debate.
Here is another arguement, not made there, but which I also make to fundamentalist and conservative Christians who claim that atheists will go to hell, as is so often said in the Quran, but not the Bible:
If someone didn't believe in you, would you be angry, or would you shake your head in bemused mirth? And if this person who didn't believe in you were always helping your children, how would you feel about them then? You would probably be quite fond of this person, regardless of their odd opinion of you. Is this not how you would feel? Then why would God feel any different?
The real crux of my argument with sciondestiny surrounded his quote from the Quran in which it states that disbelievers are jealous of Muslims. Jealousy implies covetousness, what could a disbeliever covet in this regard? The hidden implication is that the disbelieve does not sincerely disbelieve, he is in fact jealous of a Muslim's connection with God. This is not disbelief, it is hostility towards God, like Cain. It implies that disbelievers in the Quran must hate God.
ibay and apistos, thanks for the information.
That makes alot more sense to me when said that way. I listened to a sermon by Rob Bell, my pastor at Mars Hill Church in Michigan before I moved, where he talked about this kind of thing, it was beautiful.
depends on where ya are, and probably even down to who you talk to. I know so people who claim to be christian but are very much racisist. Unfortunately most of them are in my family so I still have to associate with them, but there have been times I've left family gatherings because of it.
*edited to fix quotation problems
Last edited by a_dubDesign on Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:07 am; edited 1 time in total
| Quote: |
| Ya, I meant equal status in citizenship, religious freedom, and respect.
and why should there be reward for this? Isn't a soceity free of religious hatred and profiling a reward in itself? Equal status is not for religions only, it is for all races, colors and castes. |
That makes alot more sense to me when said that way. I listened to a sermon by Rob Bell, my pastor at Mars Hill Church in Michigan before I moved, where he talked about this kind of thing, it was beautiful.
| Quote: |
| If I am not wrong, Islam was the first religion to accept blacks and all other races as equal human beings.
As a result, negros were freed from slavery and were given equal respect and freedom. Now that the christians are at the height of their glory, Does this happen in Christian USA nowadays? |
depends on where ya are, and probably even down to who you talk to. I know so people who claim to be christian but are very much racisist. Unfortunately most of them are in my family so I still have to associate with them, but there have been times I've left family gatherings because of it.
*edited to fix quotation problems
Last edited by a_dubDesign on Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:07 am; edited 1 time in total
| ibay wrote: |
| I, being a Muslim would like to ask christians where it is said in Quran that Christians or people from any other religion will go to hell? As a christian, u can't call muslims as totally wrong, becoz your own prophets are our earlier prophets.
|
In name only, Islam discounts the accuracy of the Bible, claims it was distorted, and that the Quran is the rectification. As such, while the charactes and vague outline of Biblical narratives appear in the Quran, they area all radically altered. It is like walking down old familiar streets that are all painted purple.
| nam_siddharth wrote: |
| The answer is No.
Hindu Gods favour you, if you worship his images/statues. Muslim God curse you, if you worship any image. Muslim God order you to destroy statues. Christian God created world in seven days. Hindu God created it in one day. Christan God created only one human pair. Hindu God created four races of humanity. Hindu God give you several lifes, rebirths. Christian God give you only one life. Christian God order you to accept Jesus as his son, otherwise sends you to hell. Hindu God do not know, who is Jesus. |
thanx for that..
| Quote: |
| Muslim God curse you, if you worship any image. Muslim God order you to destroy statues |
and for that..
got nothing aginast muslims except for that..
im Muslim.. and theres only ONE GOD
there are many Gods
+ Indian God is 3 main god. (Creator, Protector, Destroyer)
+ Chinese God is Tien Kong (Heaven)
+ Greece god is Zeus
+ Arabian god is Allah
+ Jews god is Lord and his son is
+ Egypt god is Ra (Sun)
+ Primitive Race god is (maybe) Forest, Mountain
+ Japanese (Shinto) go is ???
+ etc
which God do you believe in... ???
I believe there are many God, if not this worl
+ Indian God is 3 main god. (Creator, Protector, Destroyer)
+ Chinese God is Tien Kong (Heaven)
+ Greece god is Zeus
+ Arabian god is Allah
+ Jews god is Lord and his son is
+ Egypt god is Ra (Sun)
+ Primitive Race god is (maybe) Forest, Mountain
+ Japanese (Shinto) go is ???
+ etc
which God do you believe in... ???
I believe there are many God, if not this worl