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Highway to Hell?





lib
Personally, I am not as anti-religious as this post may sound. I respect the fact that there are many people weak enough in this world who need religion to lay down the rules of morality and ethics for them to follow, instead of observing the world, thinking for themselves, empathizing, sympathizing and coming to natural conclusions of what is basically "right" and "wrong". Having said that, I get to my point.

Repeatedly, Angelical Christians have told me of the various advantages of Lord Jesus Christ, and how it would do wonders to my soul in this life (and in the afterlife) to believe in the one person who is capable of taking me to Heaven. I have asked many of my "Christ is the only way to salvation and heaven" friends what happens to the rest of us who don't agree, and they merely said that come Judgment Day, and Christ, with his angels in tow, will judge me...

Matt 25:31-34, 41, 46 wrote:
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world...Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels...And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


What a comforting thought this is! Our all-forgiving, all-loving, peaceful Lord shall send those who do not believe solely in him into everlasting punishment, to be burnt in the everlasting fire.

  • God is all-loving but will willingly send all those who did not believe in the Holy Trinity or in Jesus as the sole path to Heaven's salvation to the everlasting fires of hell.
  • Many Christians mock other religions as being "kafirs" or "heathens", yet many of these religions preach re-incarnation and re-birth until we attain salvation in the form of Moksha or Nirvana. How does the final judgement (heaven or hell forever) seem better than a second chance after every life?


To tell you the truth, I am not an atheist. I believe in "God", and the only reason I've put that in quuotes is because people have dirtied His name. I believe Him solely to be the judge of my actions on this planet, in this life. At the same time, I refuse to accept the uniqueness or the solitary nature of God as someone who will only bestow his love and forgiving upon those who follow a set of man-made rules in the name of "religion".
Whong
lib wrote:
Personally, I am not as anti-religious as this post may sound. I respect the fact that there are many people weak enough in this world who need religion to lay down the rules of morality and ethics for them to follow, instead of observing the world, thinking for themselves, empathizing, sympathizing and coming to natural conclusions of what is basically "right" and "wrong". Having said that, I get to my point.

Repeatedly, Angelical Christians have told me of the various advantages of Lord Jesus Christ, and how it would do wonders to my soul in this life (and in the afterlife) to believe in the one person who is capable of taking me to Heaven. I have asked many of my "Christ is the only way to salvation and heaven" friends what happens to the rest of us who don't agree, and they merely said that come Judgment Day, and Christ, with his angels in tow, will judge me...

Matt 25:31-34, 41, 46 wrote:
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world...Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels...And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


What a comforting thought this is! Our all-forgiving, all-loving, peaceful Lord shall send those who do not believe solely in him into everlasting punishment, to be burnt in the everlasting fire.

  • God is all-loving but will willingly send all those who did not believe in the Holy Trinity or in Jesus as the sole path to Heaven's salvation to the everlasting fires of hell.
  • Many Christians mock other religions as being "kafirs" or "heathens", yet many of these religions preach re-incarnation and re-birth until we attain salvation in the form of Moksha or Nirvana. How does the final judgement (heaven or hell forever) seem better than a second chance after every life?


To tell you the truth, I am not an atheist. I believe in "God", and the only reason I've put that in quuotes is because people have dirtied His name. I believe Him solely to be the judge of my actions on this planet, in this life. At the same time, I refuse to accept the uniqueness or the solitary nature of God as someone who will only bestow his love and forgiving upon those who follow a set of man-made rules in the name of "religion".


I believe so too, God has the right to put them to hell who don't believe in Him. God is truly Good! He loves us so dearly that He gave His only Son, so that who ever may believe in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life! John 3:16

God loves us, do we love Him Exclamation Question Idea
Sebaci
God will not send all peopole to hell who don't believe in Him. You don't have to be Christianist to go to heaven, even you may be atheist and could go to heaven Wink
Whong
Sebaci wrote:
God will not send all peopole to hell who don't believe in Him. You don't have to be Christianist to go to heaven, even you may be atheist and could go to heaven Wink


You live in darkness my friend,

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

God will say to you if you don't belive in Him on that very day "I don't know you!" Its not about deeds so that no one shall boust!
Sebaci
Whong wrote:

You live in darkness my friend,

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

God will say to you if you don't belive in Him on that very day "I don't know you!" Its not about deeds so that no one shall boust!

So?
Jesus didn'g say there that atheists must go to hell. You may be atheist but you may live in peace, love, be helpful to other people and do good things, and you may go to heaven Exclamation
Whong
Sebaci wrote:

Jesus didn'g say there that atheists must go to hell. You may be atheist but you may live in peace, love, be helpful to other people and do good things, and you may go to heaven Exclamation


John 3:18 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

There it is, he that doesn't believe in the Son of God will be condemned for it, and the condemnation is Hell!
Idea Laughing Wink
Sebaci
Whong wrote:
Sebaci wrote:

Jesus didn'g say there that atheists must go to hell. You may be atheist but you may live in peace, love, be helpful to other people and do good things, and you may go to heaven Exclamation


John 3:18 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

There it is, he that doesn't believe in the Son of God will be condemned for it, and the condemnation is Hell!
Idea Laughing Wink

Maybe. But it's not... fair...
Soulfire
How can God be ever-loving to you if you do not love Him? It seems very selfish of yourself to say "Well, I can believe what I want, but God better take me to Heaven."

He clearly says the only way to Heaven is through Jesus Christ. There is NO other way.

Do not put yourself before God, it's a dangerous thing.
Subsonic Sound
What irks me about that is the idea that someone could spend their entire lives working in a run-down, poverty stricken, third world hole, working 18 hour days helping... say... war-orphans. Never thinking a thought for themselves, giving every possession and hour of their lives for the people they're helping.

This hypothetical person has never heard of Christianity.

This hypothetical person is apparently on the express train to hell.

Any God who could really enforce a rule like that, isn't worth worshipping.
Soulfire
Subsonic Sound wrote:
What irks me about that is the idea that someone could spend their entire lives working in a run-down, poverty stricken, third world hole, working 18 hour days helping... say... war-orphans. Never thinking a thought for themselves, giving every possession and hour of their lives for the people they're helping.

This hypothetical person has never heard of Christianity.

This hypothetical person is apparently on the express train to hell.

Any God who could really enforce a rule like that, isn't worth worshipping.

Of course God is worth worshipping, you might want to choose your words a bit wiser there. And no, they are not on the "express train to hell." If you have honestly, truly never been exposed to Christianity, and lived the best life you could here on earth, you are innocent in the eyes of God.
Subsonic Sound
Quote:
He clearly says the only way to Heaven is through Jesus Christ. There is NO other way.


Quote:
If you have honestly, truly never been exposed to Christianity, and lived the best life you could here on earth, you are innocent in the eyes of God.


Please reconcile these posts.
Soulfire
Did I ever say you would go to Heaven? No, I just said you were innocent, which should imply that you go to Heaven.

And to "reconcile" those two posts:
1) Jesus is the only way
2) If you have never been exposed to Jesus, you don't know that He is the only way, then you really aren't held accountable for it, and can't be held accountable for it. You get to present your case after death to Jesus for judgement.

By "There is NO other way" I am talking to the people who willingly reject God and Jesus.
Subsonic Sound
Fair enough - I can understand that. (Don't AGREE with it, but that's another matter.)

Have to ask though, with all the beliefs about God creating us, and testing us, the question that always comes up in my mind is 'why?'.

Why create us, then test us to destruction? Is there some great purpose? Or is it just something for him to do to pass the time?
snjripp
Reconciling these statements can be tough, but it is not impossible. I could argue for them both being true, but It is not an argument I support. It is a matter of inclusivism. I am not aware of many serious theologians who would espouse an ignorance is innocence strategy. It denudes the sacrifice of Christ as well as the centrality of Christ to Christianity.

One thing I try to refuse to do is to limit the saving power of Christ. The more the merrier…
Whong
Soulfire wrote:
How can God be ever-loving to you if you do not love Him? It seems very selfish of yourself to say "Well, I can believe what I want, but God better take me to Heaven."

He clearly says the only way to Heaven is through Jesus Christ. There is NO other way.

Do not put yourself before God, it's a dangerous thing.


I totally agree with you, God loves us, but if we don't respond what else can He do. You've heard His message, believe in Jesus Christ or go to Hell!
He just says it in a nicer way! Exclamation
Subsonic Sound
And if you haven't heard his message?
Sebaci
Subsonic Sound wrote:
And if you haven't heard his message?

Yes, what if I live in australian bush and I have never heard about Jesus and God? That would be unfair
nam_siddharth
Christians says
Quote:
believe in Jesus Christ or go to Hell!



Muslims says
Quote:
believe in Jesus (as son of God) and go to hell!



Hindus says
Quote:
believe in any non-indian prophets and go to hell!



So all are going to hell anyway, whether Christian, Muslim or Hindu.
Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
Soulfire
nam_siddharth wrote:
Christians says
Quote:
believe in Jesus Christ or go to Hell!



Muslims says
Quote:
believe in Jesus (as son of God) and go to hell!



Hindus says
Quote:
believe in any non-indian prophets and go to hell!



So all are going to hell anyway, whether Christian, Muslim or Hindu.
Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

It would appear that way, but not so, because there is such thing as false religion.

If you are truly never exposed to Jesus then you are not punished for it, that is my take on it. It's not your own fault if you're never exposed to it, so you aren't held accountable for it... but people who willfully reject God and Jesus are held accountable for it.
lib
Soulfire wrote:
How can God be ever-loving to you if you do not love Him? It seems very selfish of yourself to say "Well, I can believe what I want, but God better take me to Heaven."

To begin with, let's shed your definition of "God" as being the Christian God and the Christian God alone. I'm sure you and I both believe there is only one God... the only difference is that you believe that God is the Christian God, the father of Jesus Christ, while I believe that it is just God, and not just a God of one solitary religion.
Thus, I believe in and love and worship God, but not solely the Christian God. Henceforth, all references to "God" in this post, and every post made by me, shall refer to this one true God, and not just the Christian God.

Quote:
He clearly says the only way to Heaven is through Jesus Christ. There is NO other way.

Don't forget the Bible was written by men. If God is every bit as powerful and knowledgeable as you and I assume, then it is likely that common man may have misunderstood what God said. I refuse to take the writings of a common man as the word of God... more importantly, due to my respect for God, I refuse to accept that he would segregate people on the basis of belief in one man, and take away people's freedom of choice by making everyone believe in only one way to reach Him.

Quote:
Do not put yourself before God, it's a dangerous thing.
Do not assume to be the only one who loves God, and the only one God loves. It is arrogant and disgusting.

[quote="snjripp"]One thing I try to refuse to do is to limit the saving power of Christ. The more the merrier...
Quote:

Cheers, mate.

[quote="Whong"]I totally agree with you, God loves us, but if we don't respond what else can He do. You've heard His message, believe in Jesus Christ or go to Hell!

See, this is the exact kind of hypocrisy that turns me against Christianity once in a while. God loves us all, and wants us to grow as mature, empathical beings... yet he reduces our field of spritual growth by giving us only path to reach him? Once again, your arrogantly assume that His message is solely in the Bible.

Quote:
He just says it in a nicer way!

You just turned God into a diplomat. Good work! So now, instead of giving us truth, and lvoe, and knowledge and freedom (of choice and life), God has become a salesman, selling Jesus to us in the nicest way, while his faithful fan following go around threatening "non-believers" and "kafirs" with hell, and insulting them, and declaring them to be stupid and not worthy of God.

All of this debate has left out one of my main questions though...
Tell me again how God is so merciful while He willingly pushes the "heathens" into the everlasting fire of Hell?
And tell me whether it is not more humane and logical and loving to be given another chance if you've messed up in this life? IS re-incarnation not better than eternal damnation?

I have a feeling that I am going to once again get replies of "Well, either you should believe in God, or face the consequences"... please don't give me that crap. Christians are supposed to spread love indifferently... love thy neighbour... love everyone... yet selfishly condemn them all to eternal damnation. I call this part hypocrisy.

Soulfire wrote:
It would appear that way, but not so, because there is such thing as false religion.

And what makes you automatically assume that yours is the only true religion? It is thinking like that that divides the world, divides people, starts wars, causes death, destruction and hate... and you wonder why the atheists are laughing their asses off at us.
Whong
The men that wrote the bible were inspired by God. And we know that it is the only true way because it is! So anyway we are trying to hep you out here! Laughing

God's ways are different than men's ways because men don't know what is best for them! Wink
lib
Whong wrote:
The men that wrote the bible were inspired by God. And we know that it is the only true way because it is! So anyway we are trying to hep you out here!

That these men were inspired by God I do not debate. However, let us not confuse the word "inspired" by the word "instructed". By this, I mean that these men were inspired by God, but need not necessarily have written exactly what God told them. However, I am quite sure that it is your belief that God put the words into their minds that these men put into the Bible. However, I still beg to differ... God is all-knowledgeable. He wouldn't make the silly mistake of claiming that the Earth was at the center of everything, now would he?

Secondly, allow me to take the liberty of asking you this... How do you consider it a help to me when you are closing my doors and my mind to spiritual growth? You are basically condemning all other religions and all other faiths. If, by chance, I was to fall in love with a non-believer or by chance, if my near relatives were non-believers, conforming to your rules, I would be willingly condemning them to suffer eternally in Hell... my love for them cannot possible let me now, can it?

Quote:
God's ways are different than men's ways because men don't know what is best for them!

You are definitely right. Men do not know what is best for them. If they did, we would not have wars and killing in the name of religion, or wars and killing for greed, or selfish reasons. We would instead learn to be tolerant and love unconditionally. Wink
Whong
lib wrote:
Whong wrote:
The men that wrote the bible were inspired by God. And we know that it is the only true way because it is! So anyway we are trying to hep you out here!

That these men were inspired by God I do not debate. However, let us not confuse the word "inspired" by the word "instructed". By this, I mean that these men were inspired by God, but need not necessarily have written exactly what God told them. However, I am quite sure that it is your belief that God put the words into their minds that these men put into the Bible. However, I still beg to differ... God is all-knowledgeable. He wouldn't make the silly mistake of claiming that the Earth was at the center of everything, now would he?

Secondly, allow me to take the liberty of asking you this... How do you consider it a help to me when you are closing my doors and my mind to spiritual growth? You are basically condemning all other religions and all other faiths. If, by chance, I was to fall in love with a non-believer or by chance, if my near relatives were non-believers, conforming to your rules, I would be willingly condemning them to suffer eternally in Hell... my love for them cannot possible let me now, can it?


No, God doesn't make mistakes! Laughing
To your second question, If your family members were nonbelievers you would pray for them and share the word(Bible) with them tell them about Jesus. By praying for them you are doing big part of the task! One soes the seeds one waters them but it's the seed that grows if grows! Well my belief is my beliefe, but I strongly believe in it and would like you to believe in it too! Very Happy
lib
Whong wrote:
No, God doesn't make mistakes!

Well, what about the helio-centricity then? Wink

Quote:
To your second question, If your family members were nonbelievers you would pray for them and share the word(Bible) with them tell them about Jesus. By praying for them you are doing big part of the task! One soes the seeds one waters them but it's the seed that grows if grows! Well my belief is my beliefe, but I strongly believe in it and would like you to believe in it too

I appreciate the fact that you have been so honest and forthright with your post. I agree that these are your beliefs and I am not likely to be able to affect them in any way. In the same way, my beliefs are mine, and I doubt you will be able to sway them very much. Yet, this is where out similarity ends... I do not want you to believe in my beliefs. I just want everyone to stop pushing their beliefs on me Wink
Whong
lib wrote:

I appreciate the fact that you have been so honest and forthright with your post. I agree that these are your beliefs and I am not likely to be able to affect them in any way. In the same way, my beliefs are mine, and I doubt you will be able to sway them very much.


I know that I can't change your opinion, but the Lord God in heaven can! Very Happy
Some soe the seeds, someone comes and waters them and the rest is to that where the seeds have fallen if on furtail soil or on a stoney side walk! Laughing
God can do it for you, He has done it for me when I was 4 or 5 so He can do it for you!
a_dubDesign
Whong wrote:

You live in darkness my friend,

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

God will say to you if you don't belive in Him on that very day "I don't know you!" Its not about deeds so that no one shall boust!

Whong, are you aware that the scripture you quoted and what you said right bellow it totally contradicts each other with any further explanation? Care to attempt to reconcile those two statements?

And to those people whose interpratations of the Bible says Jesus told people they were going to hell, just in a nicer way, how many red letter passages can you show to back that up? I'm guessing 4, because thats that number of times I can recall that Jesus talked about hell. Keeping in mind that judgement and sentencing are two seperate things, which tends to be problematic to alot of people. I know I got those two mixed up a whole lot in my past.

God Bless everybody, and happy ressurection!

oh and if anyone's not familiar with what red letter passages are, its a refrence to the Bibles that print everything spoken directly from Jesus in red letters. Take care everybody.
tidruG
a_dubDesign, how about quoting those passages. I must admit that I am not very familiar with the Bible myself, but it will probably add to this discussion if you quoted the red letter passages, in my opinion.
a_dubDesign
tidruG wrote:
a_dubDesign, how about quoting those passages. I must admit that I am not very familiar with the Bible myself, but it will probably add to this discussion if you quoted the red letter passages, in my opinion.

alright I'll go for it. My Bible is still packed from my mini-vacation but I'll make use of biblegateway. So right now I'll just put up some passages, as most of my notes are in my bible.

Matthew 5:22-30 wrote:

21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother[b]will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,[c]' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

23"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.

25"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

27"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.'[e] 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

From the beattitudes in matthews. Repeated again in Mark 9. Matthew 5

Matthew 23:15 & 33 wrote:

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

This whole chapter is Jesus speaking against the ubber-religious people of his time. Matthew 23

Luke 12:1-7 wrote:

1Meanwhile, when a crowd of many thousands had gathered, so that they were trampling on one another, Jesus began to speak first to his disciples, saying: "Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. 2There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 3What you have said in the dark will be heard in the daylight, and what you have whispered in the ear in the inner rooms will be proclaimed from the roofs.

4"I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him. 6Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies[a]? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. 7Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

Jesus is speaking directly to the 12 disciples here, which continues untill verse 13. Luke 12

Luke 16:16-31 wrote:

9"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

Ya can't have a discussion about hell in the bible without the story of the rich man and lazarus. Luke 16
a_dubDesign
ok, I missed something before that I just realized in some of my reading.

Whong wrote:
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

There it is, he that doesn't believe in the Son of God will be condemned for it, and the condemnation is Hell!
Idea Laughing Wink

you seem to be either at best ignoring the last half of that verse, or at worst rewriting it to fit your ideas.

The condemnation is that jesus came into this world, but people miss it. It doesn't say anything about the afterlife here.
tidruG
I'm going to read up about the Pharisees, because from the quotes you have given above, it appears that Jesus has condemned only the Pharisees to Hell.


As for the first quote, would you mind explaining it to me?

And the story of Lazarus... the only significance it has is to tell us that judgment is eternal. Once you go to hell, never can you come back to heaven.

Also, if judgment day has not yet come, how is it that Lazarus went to haven, and the rich guy to hell? Isn't everyone supposed to go to heaven or hell after the day of judgment?
a_dubDesign
tidruG wrote:
I'm going to read up about the Pharisees, because from the quotes you have given above, it appears that Jesus has condemned only the Pharisees to Hell.


As for the first quote, would you mind explaining it to me?

And the story of Lazarus... the only significance it has is to tell us that judgment is eternal. Once you go to hell, never can you come back to heaven.

Also, if judgment day has not yet come, how is it that Lazarus went to haven, and the rich guy to hell? Isn't everyone supposed to go to heaven or hell after the day of judgment?

Not a problem, I'll do my best.

For first quote are you refering to Matthew 5 or the condemnation thing?

The story about the rich man and lazarus is, in my opinion, a parable, an odd parable, but a parable none the less. One of the reasons is the one you just gave. There are many out there that think this is a literal story, and many who think its a parable.

The story can be applied to a couple of things. There's what the present day jewish people would have understood, and then what we can take from the story for our life now. Its been a while since I studied this story so some of the finer details and proof text are hazy, but I think I can give a decent enough retelling.

The jewish audince would have read this and understood themselves to be the rich man. They had the Law and were God's choosen people. The begger represents the gentiles, who sat outside of the status of "God's people", longing for what the jewish people had. The Jewish nation refused to bless the other nations, as they were called to do back in genesis. The dialog between the rich man and abraham solidifies that the rich man is the jewish nation since they were the ones who were have "Moses and the Prophets" and the last verse quoted is a direct refrence to Jesus's future death and then resurection.

An application for today, taking the story at face value, we can say that its ok to be rich when we are also taking care of those who are less fortunate, since it appears that the rich man went to hell (hades) not because he was rich, but because he did not to help Lazarus. To sum it up, take care of others.

I'm glad to see people interested in learning about the Pharisees. Alot of Jesus's message can be missed without an understanding of the society he was in at the time. Don't forget about the Zealots, Essenses, and a fourth group whose name slips my mind, but they were all about fitting in with roman culture. Those four are the basic make-up for the Jewish culture at Jesus's time, along with the saducees, but they were pretty much pharisees with only one distinction that I can remember. And all most all of Jesus's hard words are aimed at the pharisees.
lib
Sorry for my absence of late.
a_dubDesign, I can see your point in bringing in words spoken directly by Jesus. However, the Bible is accepted as a correct interpretation of God's Law, and clearly, it states that all non-believes will be judged.
Do you not think "will be judged" is basically a diplomatic way of saying that they're going to hell? Is this not the generally accepted idea?
And my thead's main topic is... is this idea not a little illogical and/or wrong?
a_dubDesign
lib wrote:
Sorry for my absence of late.
a_dubDesign, I can see your point in bringing in words spoken directly by Jesus.

Good to see your back. Hope all is well.

lib wrote:
However, the Bible is accepted as a correct interpretation of God's Law,...

The first problem is theres tons of interpretations of the Bible, so theres a problem from the get go.

lib wrote:

...and clearly, it states that all non-believes will be judged. Do you not think "will be judged" is basically a diplomatic way of saying that they're going to hell? Is this not the generally accepted idea?

Keep in mind just because something is generally accepted doesn't mean that its correct.

I think the story of the sheep and goats shows that everyone will be judged, believers and non-believers.
I also see a difference in scriptures between being judged and being condemned to hell, the sheep and goats is one place where I see that and another is Luke 6:37 "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven."
make_life_better
Maybe I've never rejected the true word of God or Jesus. All I've ever seen and heard are other peoples' translations and interpretations. And we know those can't be perfect. In any case, language also moves on and the meanings of the words used may have changed in subtle ways (e.g. "gay", "wicked").

Maybe, if I really started believing in a particular version of the bible I would be committing a sin because that is never the true meaning (which could probably never be put into a finite book in any language we could understand).

But I suppose that we have to give some leeway here - I guess the bible (whichever version) may be the best attempt that we have, so believing in that shouldn't be a sin, should it? Or by allowing any leeway, am I letting in the thin end of the wedge and I'm on a slippery slope to hell anyway?
Whong
a_dubDesign wrote:
ok, I missed something before that I just realized in some of my reading.

Whong wrote:
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

There it is, he that doesn't believe in the Son of God will be condemned for it, and the condemnation is Hell!
Idea Laughing Wink

you seem to be either at best ignoring the last half of that verse, or at worst rewriting it to fit your ideas.

The condemnation is that jesus came into this world, but people miss it. It doesn't say anything about the afterlife here.


And because they reject the Light (Jesus Christ) they will perish, and thats the bottom line though it doesn't sound so nice! Wink
a_dubDesign
Whong wrote:

And because they reject the Light (Jesus Christ) they will perish, and thats the bottom line though it doesn't sound so nice! Wink

I know we are going to have to agree to disagree, but with much hesistation and for the possibile sake of those reading, I'll ask anyway. Care to unpack that statement? Espically since you still seem to be writing your own, more likely your pastors or parents or other, defintion of what condomnation is with regards to the verse you quoted.
ralphbefree
hello everybody, i just found this thread and found it very interesting and so I hope that no one minds me "jumping in" to the middle of the thread.
but in order for me to do this it is necessary for us to go back to the very beginning of this thread:
Quote:
I have asked many of my "Christ is the only way to salvation and heaven" friends what happens to the rest of us who don't agree, and they merely said that come Judgment Day, and Christ, with his angels in tow, will judge me...
Quote:
Matt 25:31-34, 41, 46 wrote:
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world...Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels...And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


This is actually the first time that I have studied the above text and I found it very comforting. Let's further disect this verse so that I may further explain myself.
"When the Son of man shall come in his glory...."
According to the Catholic Encyclopedia (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14144a.htm)
Quote:

In the Old Testament "son of man" is always translated in the Septuagint without the article as anthropou. It is employed (1) as a poetical synonym for man, or for the ideal man, e.g. "God is not as a man, that he should lie nor as a son of man, that he should be changed" (Numbers 23:19). "Blessed is the man that doth this and the son of man that shall lay hold on this" (Isaiah 56:2). "Let thy hand be upon the man of thy right hand: and upon the son of man whom thou hast confirmed for thyself" (Psalm 79:1Cool.
(2) The Prophet Ezechiel is addressed by God as "son of man" more than ninety times, e.g. "Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak to thee" (Ezekiel 2:1). This usage is confined to Ezechiel except one passage in Daniel, where Gabriel said: "Understand, O son of man, for in the time of the end the vision shall be fulfilled" (Daniel 8:17).

Now it is widely understood that with in the human persona there lies different personalities, what physcologists refer to as the ID and your EGO. And it is also widely understood that it is the function of religion to help aide the human persona to properly discipline the EGO to help identify itself with the SuperNatural. In other words it is the function of religion to help humanity evolve toward a divine way of living. This is what is ment by the term "Christians" or more literally "To Be Like Christ". Which is to imply that humans - MAN has the ability to transform himself into a more "Christ-Like" character or "the ideal man". Every religion and culture adheres to this ideology. in the chinese I-CHING he is refered to as the "Superiour Man". In Buddihist religion he is know as Buddha. Islam refers to this character of the Ideal Man as Mohammad. While our current Capitalist Society refers to the ideal man as "The Gentleman".

Quote:
"..and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory..."


Once a baby becomes a child, who becomes an adolescent, who becomes a young man, who becomes a wise man, who becomes an "ideal man" has at his disposal the secrets of the wonders of nature. He realizes his place amongst the cosmos and the part He plays. He realizes that the only aspect in this world that He can control is Himself and that realization makes him King. This is what is ment to "sit upon the throne of his glory"

Quote:
"And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left."


Now that the "Ideal Man", the man that has transposed his character in alignment with the Divine, has taken his "throne" He is in realization of His Kingdom. His Kingdom is all that He has rein over which is in actuallity only Himself. As anyone can attest this can be alot. In any Kingdom there are parts that make up the whole; a kingdom must have subject to be ruled. In the "Kingdom" of the human persona there are many subjects that need to be ruled. Lust, Greed, and Hatred are just a couple of examples that a King must rule over to keep his Kingdom from ruin. It is easy to see how Saint Mathew could have refered to these "subjects" as "nations". A Kingdom is comprised of its many states or in the era of the Roman Empire many nations. Therefore refering back to the quote: Once a man has transformed himself to an Ideal Man He shall then take discipline of his life and will be able to seperate the character traits that comprise a normal man into those that are of beneficial use to us and to those that hinder us, so that He may act as a "Superior Man".

Quote:
"...Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world..."


Now that the Ideal Man has taken discipline over his own character he invites the character traits that are most beneficial to Him, Those traits that are in harmony with the Divine, to fully encompass His life and take full charge of His attitude. This is the purpose the Earthly plane. To allow this process to occur. Eastern philosophy refers to this process as Enlightenment.
Quote:
For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.


This quote is an important part of the verse for it is the qualifier for the character traits that are beneficial. Within the Human persona the character traits comprise the personality which is expressed through attitude. The Ideal Man who has now divided his character traits can recognize which are beneficial towards him and which that are not by reflecting on the path that led to the transformation.
The path to enlightenment, or to transfrom to an Ideal Man, is a long and perilous journey. It envolves Man looking deep within Himself and discovering who He really is and then making a conscience decision to embrace that what is most beneficial to all or in other words to embrace that which does no harm. So while the Ideal Man is reflecting on which character traits are the ones that are most in harmony with the Divine those that enabled compassion in his life are the ones to be embraced.

Quote:
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me


And "On The Other Hand" Very Happy (the left hand) those character traits that didnot envoke compassion while a human was on the path to transforming himself into an Ideal Man shall be explunged from the personality of the Ideal Man. Very Happy

Quote:
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Now these (notice the word these refering to a thing not "them" refering to people) character traits that do not evoke compassion are permantly removed from the Ideal Man's personality, while the character traits that do envoke compassion will propel the Ideal Man into "life eternal" (more o that later).

So to wrap up this long winded post, I feel that the use of Matt 25:31-34, 41, 46 to support the idea that people who do not believe in Christ are going to be damned to Hell during the second coming is ridiculous. This verse like so many others in the new testament, refer to the spiritual building of your Kingdom. This verse describes in detail how to qualify which character traits to embrace in order to live a life as a Man the way that "GOD" has inteded; as an Ideal Man, a Superior Man, a Son of man. Basically, that qualifier is compassion.
Compassion and the character traits associated with this action is The Christ.
Quote:
Whong wrote:
And because they reject the Light (Jesus Christ) they will perish
Quote:
Whong wrote:
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.


Now we have a simple equation:
Christ=character traits associated with compassion=Light
men love darkness because thier deeds are evil.
Ideal Man love light because thier deeds are divine.

Now the last most important point to this thread:
A man that goes to church every sunday, who say that he believes in a man named Jesus Christ who absolves all of his past evils and yet still acts with no compassion is not going to have "eternal life" (more on this later)
The man in the australia bush that works for war orphans and devotes his life to compassion IS fully embracing the Christ and if being a fully realized divine creature a true Ideal Man than he shall certainly have "eternal life"(again more on this later)
but as for now I am done .... I have enjoyed researching this verse and welcome any feedback
LIGHT & LOVE
a_dubDesign
hey ralph that was some interesting stuff, I don't have much time to adress everything, but what do you do with the 80 or so other refrences in the NT to Jesus specifically as the son of man?

Biblegateway link with search for exact phrase Son of Man
ralphbefree
What do I do with the refrences? Honestly not very much I haven't even read them but according to my reference the Catholic Encyclopedia at www.newadvent.org there is the following information:
Quote:
The employment of the expression in the Gospels is very remarkable. It is used to designate Jesus Christ no fewer than eighty-one times -- thirty times in St. Matthew, fourteen times in St. Mark, twenty-five times in St. Luke, and twelve times in St. John. Contrary to what obtains in the Septuagint, it appears everywhere with the article, as ho huios tou anthropou. Greek scholars are agreed that the correct translation of this is "the son of man", not "the son of the man". The possible ambiguity may be one of the reasons why it is seldom or never found in the early Greek Fathers as a title for Christ. But the most remarkable thing connected with "the Son of Man" is that it is found only in the mouth of Christ. It is never employed by the disciples or Evangelists, nor by the early Christian writers. It is found once only in Acts, where St. Stephen exclaims: "Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God" (7:55). The whole incident proves that it was a well-known expression of Christ's. Though the saying was so frequently employed by Christ, the disciples preferred some more honorific title and we do not find it at all in St. Paul nor in the other Epistles. St. Paul perhaps uses something like an equivalent when he calls Christ the second or last Adam. The writers of the Epistles, moreover, probably wished to avoid the Greek ambiguity just alluded to.

The fact that Jesus Christ himself only referenced himself as being the Son of man is a testament to me that He was truely trying to express the idea that His character was that of an Ideal Man, and that by emulating his actions we may also be transformed into the character of the Ideal Man.
lib
a_dubDesign, your posts make sense. I understand what you're saying, and I appreciate your point of view. However, here is my point of view... most Christians (I hope you agree) interpret judgment day as the day all non-believers of Jesus are going, definitely, to hell. This thread was mainly to deal with this line of thought. From your links and your line of thought, you may rest assured that I have no issues with you, and I respect your views a lot. If judging is done based on actions and not just on belief in one particular religion, then it follows a more or less basic pattern of karma.

And here is what I am against:
Quote:
And because they reject the Light (Jesus Christ) they will perish, and thats the bottom line though it doesn't sound so nice!


ralphbefree, I thoroughly enjoyed reading your post. It forms the nexus of my own personal philosophy of spirituality and personal God.
Quote:
I have enjoyed researching this verse and welcome any feedback
LIGHT & LOVE

I have, if possible, enjoyed your research on this more than you have.

As long as you are implying that we perceived Jesus Christ to be an ideal man, and are leaving a possibility for anyone, by great will power or by virute of his/her own personal virtues to eventually become (almost) and Ideal person, I agree with everything you have said.

possibly what you write about Jesus Christ referring to himself as an ideal man, and one whose characteristics me should try to emulate is not really as difficult to accept as the other notions of him being (the one and only) Son of God without whom we will perish forever in the fires of hell.
simp
I believe the topic is supposed to be "Highway to Hell", so:

"My eyes have seen the swerving of the coming of the lord,
he is snoring down the highway in a '57 ford,
with one hand on his throttle (Ewww!),
and the other on a bottle,
of Johnnie walker red!"
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