Can a thought be a sin? What are your views on sinning by thought? For example, in the Bible, Jesus says that if you think lustfully about a woman other than your wife, it is equivalent to committing adultery with her. Personally, I find it to be a rather very exaggerated something.
Do you think that bad thoughts can be sinful? Or in other words, can we commit sin by our thoughts?
the thoughts are the source of our actions. If we have bad thoughts we are likely to do bad things. If you think a lot about doing something bad, then your're on dangerous soil. We used to have venial sin for less serious failings and mortal sins for very serious actions. Now we say that it depends on your circumstances, but if you know somethings wrong, stay clear or you will be sinning.
If Jesus said so, you christians have to obey this rule of course! 
As an atheist I can lustfully think about woman, other then my wife, as much as I would like to. 
Acting upon these thoughts remains a sin of course, for wich I have to justify or excuse myself to my wife ...if it's not too late already 
Sinning by thought is a really silly concept, the same way that being persecuted for thought is very silly. It is your actions that matter, not your thoughts. For the most part there is a direct correlation between your thoughts and your actions, however this is not always the case. And if you have the strength of will to resist the temptation and the thought and not commit a sinful action you should be rewarded if anything.
close thine eyes and hum when (cliche) baywatch cometh into vision or though shalt be forever cast unto hell?
Sounds a bit silly to me.
However planning murder yet lacking the opportunity or conviction to commit it sounds sinful.
| Lennon wrote: |
| the thoughts are the source of our actions. |
Pardon me for I seem to disagree with your initial claim. Thoughts are not always the source of our actions. Human actions are based upon three principles, thought*, feeling and habit. When we act through thought, we deliberate about our actions, however, when we act though feeling and habit, (unless the habit is to deliberate) we do not make use of thought. Thus, our actions are not always directed by thought.
I think Aristotle’s Nicomachean Ethics would explain this better than I do. | Lennon wrote: |
| the thoughts are the source of our actions. If we have bad thoughts we are likely to do bad things. If you think a lot about doing something bad, then your're on dangerous soil. We used to have venial sin for less serious failings and mortal sins for very serious actions. Now we say that it depends on your circumstances, but if you know somethings wrong, stay clear or you will be sinning. |
I agree with Lennon 100% here. According to my faith, yes impure (???) thoughts can certainly be sins. Are they Cardinal Sins or not, I don't know. I only know that my Church wants me to consider them bad, impure, and avoid them at all costs. The Roman Catholic Church does not have a very good history of explaining why one thing is bad/evil, only that you should do as your told....and your probably going to go to hell just for asking, kinda like volunteering for something in the Marines....it ain't gonna work out the way you thought. I do believe in what Lennon said about "If you think alot about doing something bad, then your on dangerous ground", so very true. I say this because I think the more you think about something, the more calloused your mind becomes to the thought and the more likely you will end up acting on it once you have become comfortable with the thought.
Edited for spelling.reason why Jesus said that you already sin when you think about it is because firstly what is inside of you (i.e. your mind) is usually what comes out of you, in actions. You might not realise this but many times we put on a false front and dun truely show what we think. But there are times we let slip and what is inside of us comes out, that's why pple say he's finally shown his true colors. If our true color is one of goodness and purity, then what comes out of us cannot be bad..
secondly, God looks at our heart and mind. Us humans cannot do that because we cannot read minds, but haven't we often wished that I could read the person's mind so I can really know what he's thinking and why he did the things he did. God can, and he wants us to keep our minds pure so our whole person is pure too..
Sin is a difficult word, but I am quite convinced that people who think about "bad" things (however you want to define "bad") will to some extent lower their threshold or aversion to such things. Those who think about bad things a lot might lower their threshold a lot. Those who obsess about things even more so.
No I am not saying that anybody who looks at a beautiful woman and thinks an unclean or impure thought is evil and would go out and rape somebody, but somebody who reads and watches a lot of violent porn is possibly more likely to do something unpleasant than somebody who doesn't.
I think that our behaviour is usually moderated by the context and social norms (and morals) that we are surrounded by. If people distort those in their own heads, maybe it would change the level of moderation of behaviour. Some psychologist may be able to back up these suspicions, but I don't have any evidence.
Except that advertisers are able to modify our behaviou by changing what adverts they show, and that doesn't even require much conscious effort on our part - how much more effective could an "advert" be in our own heads?
And of course I worry about the games that some kids play - they are getting really unpleasant in some cases.
Yes, lustful thoughts are sin. Lust in general is a deadly sin (1 of 7). It's not exaggurated, when you marry your wife, it is meant to be you and her - no other woman, too bad our current society has lost that.
| Soulfire wrote: |
Yes, lustful thoughts are sin. Lust in general is a deadly sin (1 of 7). It's not exaggurated, when you marry your wife, it is meant to be you and her - no other woman, too bad our current society has lost that.
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A man 's got to do what a man 's got to do....
Why didn'd God make us (more) monogamous then, if it's such a deadly sin?I never really understood "sinning by thought."
It seems really hard to think about things you know you shouldn't be thinking about.
Because when you start thinking about it, all you can think about is how you shouldn't be thinking about it in the first place.
THEN... when you finally forget, you remember that you're finally not thinking about it.
Therefore, you still think about it.
And it never ends.
So, I suppose if you just KNOW that what you're thinking is wrong and you want to stop thinking about it, then it's okay to the Lord.
What I just said probably sounded like a bunch of babbling.
| Pietertje wrote: |
| Soulfire wrote: | Yes, lustful thoughts are sin. Lust in general is a deadly sin (1 of 7). It's not exaggurated, when you marry your wife, it is meant to be you and her - no other woman, too bad our current society has lost that.
|
A man 's got to do what a man 's got to do....
Why didn'd God make us (more) monogamous then, if it's such a deadly sin? |
Because God wants us to have freedom to do what we want.
That's why he doesn't make us follow him. | Pietertje wrote: |
| Soulfire wrote: | Yes, lustful thoughts are sin. Lust in general is a deadly sin (1 of 7). It's not exaggurated, when you marry your wife, it is meant to be you and her - no other woman, too bad our current society has lost that.
|
A man 's got to do what a man 's got to do....
Why didn'd God make us (more) monogamous then, if it's such a deadly sin? |
Because God wants us to have freedom to do what we want.
That's why he doesn't make us follow him. | idrather_not wrote: |
Because God wants us to have freedom to do what we want.
That's why he doesn't make us follow him.
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So life's a (psychological) test? 
Exactly... He gives us the law and gives us the free will to obey the law. If we abuse our free will or our freedom we hold ourselves responsible.
Feelings and habits are all thought processes. Unconscious thoughts are almost beyond control and if we have negative unconscious thoughts (some say devil-temptation) then it's almost beyond our responsibility.
But thoughts are the source of our actions.
| Pietertje wrote: |
| idrather_not wrote: |
Because God wants us to have freedom to do what we want.
That's why he doesn't make us follow him.
|
So life's a (psychological) test? |
Exactly. Believe in God and pass, reject God and fail. It's a simple test, really, but God can't force you, I can't force you, nobody can. Your faith in God must come from yourself. | Soulfire wrote: |
| Pietertje wrote: | | idrather_not wrote: |
Because God wants us to have freedom to do what we want.
That's why he doesn't make us follow him.
|
So life's a (psychological) test? |
Exactly. Believe in God and pass, reject God and fail. It's a simple test, really, but God can't force you, I can't force you, nobody can. |
I would just like it to be known that not all christians hold to this.
One thing that messes people up is the word sin. People hear the word sin and instantly think of an evil action. Sin is actually a term that comes from archery, and it means, slightly paraphrased, to miss the bullseye. Theres something to be aiming for, perfection, dead center, living a perfect life with all of creation around you, living as jesus lived.
Lustful thoughts are a sin because of what it does to the person/people involved, as someone fighting addiction to porn I can speak from experience on this one. Lustful thoughts in themselves objectify the person they are about. If I see a hot girl and think "man those are some nice tits", it turns that girl into just tits, not a part of God's beautiful creation. It goes downhill from there. Almost anything reminds you of porn and, and it can very easily become the only thing you think about, and then you miss out on the very root of christianity.
People tend to make Christianity into a bunch of rules, stick to them and you're fine, break them and you're screwed. At the root of Christianity, which many people miss, isn't rules its relationships. Its crazy love, its relationships with people and with God, it gives life to people on a depper level than other things can. When people say christanity is about rules and how not to have outward sins, they skip past the relational root of christanity, and straight to how to live a life that can bring about the relationships.
Hope everyone tracked through all that, my thoughts tend to be very jumbled. | a_dubDesign wrote: |
| Soulfire wrote: | | Pietertje wrote: | | idrather_not wrote: |
Because God wants us to have freedom to do what we want.
That's why he doesn't make us follow him.
|
So life's a (psychological) test? |
Exactly. Believe in God and pass, reject God and fail. It's a simple test, really, but God can't force you, I can't force you, nobody can. |
I would just like it to be known that not all christians hold to this.
One thing that messes people up is the word sin. People hear the word sin and instantly think of an evil action. Sin is actually a term that comes from archery, and it means, slightly paraphrased, to miss the bullseye. Theres something to be aiming for, perfection, dead center, living a perfect life with all of creation around you, living as jesus lived.
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So sinning is just 'not living as Jezus lived'?
But how do you know that Jezus never had lustfull thoughts though?
| Quote: |
Lustful thoughts are a sin because of what it does to the person/people involved, as someone fighting addiction to porn I can speak from experience on this one. Lustful thoughts in themselves objectify the person they are about. If I see a hot girl and think "man those are some nice tits", it turns that girl into just tits, not a part of God's beautiful creation.
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Didn't God create those beautiful tits too though?
Maybe even for man to admire them and get sexually attracted?
...or are they just ment to provide for the babys milk? 
| Quote: |
It goes downhill from there. Almost anything reminds you of porn and, and it can very easily become the only thing you think about, and then you miss out on the very root of christianity.
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Porn or sex?
Sex reminds you of porn?
Masturbating reminds you of porn?
| Quote: |
People tend to make Christianity into a bunch of rules, stick to them and you're fine, break them and you're screwed. At the root of Christianity, which many people miss, isn't rules its relationships. Its crazy love, its relationships with people and with God, it gives life to people on a depper level than other things can. When people say christanity is about rules and how not to have outward sins, they skip past the relational root of christanity, and straight to how to live a life that can bring about the relationships.
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| Quote: |
It's crazy love, it's relationships with people and with God
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People can also have relationships (or crazy love) with people, without having a relationship with God, you know.
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it gives life to people on a depper level than other things can.
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That's your opinion, because you're convinced that God really exists.
To me it sounds quite shallow, believing in something because you really want it to be true.
| Quote: |
Hope everyone tracked through all that, my thoughts tend to be very jumbled.
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Hope you tracked through my thoughts too, they tend to be very analytic and contra-religious, but they ain't ment to hurt though.
| Pietertje wrote: |
So sinning is just 'not living as Jezus lived'?
But how do you know that Jezus never had lustfull thoughts though?
|
Not so much living as Jesus lived, since driving a car isn't a sin. I added living as Jesus lived to the list because he's the only human whose lived the life of perfection. Another way I've heard sin defined as living out of tune with ultimate reality, and that ultimate reality is God, because through him all things were made and continue to exist. That comes from Rob Bell teaching from Mars Hill, a kick ass church in west michigan. That one might still be up on their website, but I kind of doubt it. I might have it saved if your interested. Another definition is "anything that keeps you from becoming the person God has in store for you". That one is actually from Rob's therapist, its in Rob's book called Velvet Elvis. Its hard to give one definition to something as multi-faceted as sin.
| Pietertje wrote: |
Didn't God create those beautiful tits too though?
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Depends on if you live in LA. Sorry that was so cheesey, I just couldn't help myself.
| Pietertje wrote: |
Maybe even for man to admire them and get sexually attracted?
...or are they just ment to provide for the babys milk?
|
Very good point. I've never thougt of it that way. My first thought is God probably did have our enjoyment in mind when he created them. But, in my opinion, its not a healthy thing when all you can think about it is the tits and not the woman they are attached too.
| Pietertje wrote: |
Porn or sex?
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both
| Pietertje wrote: |
Sex reminds you of porn?
Masturbating reminds you of porn?
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haven't had sex yet, but when I so I can't really answer the first question. The second one doesn't need to remind me of porn, because porn is involved.
| Pietertje wrote: |
People can also have relationships (or crazy love) with people, without having a relationship with God, you know.
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Oh yeah, without a doubt, I hope I wasn't giving the impression that people have to be christian to have relationships. Its been my experience that living the way of jesus makes relationships deeper and stronger. But I also see that what people some people call the way of jesus is far from it.
| Pietertje wrote: |
That's your opinion, because you're convinced that God really exists.
To me it sounds quite shallow, believing in something because you really want it to be true.
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I don't really believe in God because I want. I believe in God because of how I've experienced his love through other people. If tomorrow someone comes out with undisputable proof that God doesn't exist, and that heaven and hell are a sham, it really wouldn't bother me much. With or without God I fully believe that the best possible way to live is the way of Jesus.
| Pietertje wrote: |
Hope you tracked through my thoughts too, they tend to be very analytic and contra-religious, but they ain't ment to hurt though. |
I definetly didn't get any hint of hurtfulness out of your post, something that not many christians I've conversed with online can say. I hope you never get that from mine. I love these kinds of discussions since it tends to make me think about what I believe, since I by no means have all the answers, and I'm sure there are many people out there who have better answers than me. | a_dubDesign wrote: |
| Pietertje wrote: |
So sinning is just 'not living as Jezus lived'?
But how do you know that Jezus never had lustfull thoughts though?
|
Not so much living as Jesus lived, since driving a car isn't a sin. I added living as Jesus lived to the list because he's the only human whose lived the life of perfection.
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I recently red somewhere: "The last Christian died on the cross".
| Quote: |
Another way I've heard sin defined as living out of tune with ultimate reality, and that ultimate reality is God, because through him all things were made and continue to exist. That comes from Rob Bell teaching from Mars Hill, a kick *** church in west michigan. That one might still be up on their website, but I kind of doubt it. I might have it saved if your interested.
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I think the "ultimate reality", that you better live in tune with, is found in the way our mind is made.
You believe your mind is made by God, so you think you have to live in tune with your religion (to accept yourself).
I believe my mind is made by nature (in a Darwinistic way), so I can accept it as it is, and just work to keep it satisfied
...by developing good relationships with others, having sex, seeing/learning new things and so on.
| Quote: |
Another definition is "anything that keeps you from becoming the person God has in store for you". That one is actually from Rob's therapist, its in Rob's book called Velvet Elvis. Its hard to give one definition to something as multi-faceted as sin.
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But people don't know in advance what god has in store for them, so how can they know they are sinning then?
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| Pietertje wrote: |
Didn't God create those beautiful tits too though?
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Depends on if you live in LA. Sorry that was so cheesey, I just couldn't help myself.
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As a Darwinist, I would say that what happens in LA (and everywhere else) is just what 'birds' do in nature
...altering their apperance to attract the attention of possible mating partners. Evolution is such a slow process though, so man took matters in his own hand.
| Quote: |
| Pietertje wrote: |
Maybe even for man to admire them and get sexually attracted?
...or are they just ment to provide for the babys milk?
|
Very good point. I've never thougt of it that way. My first thought is God probably did have our enjoyment in mind when he created them. But, in my opinion, its not a healthy thing when all you can think about it is the tits and not the woman they are attached too.
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Thats only when you're having (or wanting) sex, and there al lot more to that woman beside tits of course.
After sex the woman becomes a "normal" person again.
| Quote: |
| Pietertje wrote: |
Porn or sex?
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both
| Pietertje wrote: |
Sex reminds you of porn?
Masturbating reminds you of porn?
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haven't had sex yet, but when I so I can't really answer the first question. The second one doesn't need to remind me of porn, because porn is involved.
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I hope you don't feel guilty about it
... don't let them play the guildtrick on you.
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| Pietertje wrote: |
People can also have relationships (or crazy love) with people, without having a relationship with God, you know.
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Oh yeah, without a doubt, I hope I wasn't giving the impression that people have to be christian to have relationships. Its been my experience that living the way of jesus makes relationships deeper and stronger. But I also see that what people some people call the way of jesus is far from it.
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And don't ever forget that atheist relationships can be as deep and as strong
...just based on friendship and discussing the world, the way you're discussing God.
I can also see that not every atheist is like this of course.
| Quote: |
[quote="Pietertje"]
That's your opinion, because you're convinced that God really exists.
To me it sounds quite shallow, believing in something because you really want it to be true.
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I don't really believe in God because I want. I believe in God because of how I've experienced his love through other people. If tomorrow someone comes out with undisputable proof that God doesn't exist, and that heaven and hell are a sham, it really wouldn't bother me much. With or without God I fully believe that the best possible way to live is the way of Jesus.
| Quote: |
Some things are good about the bible, some things are bad.
Jesus was a remarkable man (if he ever existed), but why should you take as a fact everything they wrote about him?
It's such an old story and there're so many unbelievable things in the bible.
| Quote: |
[quote="Pietertje"]
Hope you tracked through my thoughts too, they tend to be very analytic and contra-religious, but they ain't ment to hurt though. |
I definetly didn't get any hint of hurtfulness out of your post, something that not many christians I've conversed with online can say. I hope you never get that from mine. I love these kinds of discussions since it tends to make me think about what I believe, since I by no means have all the answers, and I'm sure there are many people out there who have better answers than me.
|
So here's some new material to think about
....but what do you exactly mean with this line:
"I definetly didn't get any hint of hurtfulness out of your post, something that not many christians I've conversed with online can say".
I hope it's not that almost every other christian online is hurt indeed, by my posts | Quote: |
| I recently red somewhere: "The last Christian died on the cross". |
Do you happen to remember where it was you read that? I'd be interested in reading the thoughts of the person who wrote that. It reminds me of the saying "The problem with christanity is the christians". Some people expect us christians to be perfect, but no matter what we're still humans who make mistakes. However, many of us christians use that as an excuse to justify behavior that is against the teachings of Jesus, and many of us should know better.
| Quote: |
I think the "ultimate reality", that you better live in tune with, is found in the way our mind is made.
You believe your mind is made by God, so you think you have to live in tune with your religion (to accept yourself).
I believe my mind is made by nature (in a Darwinistic way), so I can accept it as it is, and just work to keep it satisfied
...by developing good relationships with others, having sex, seeing/learning new things and so on. |
Very interesting thoughts here. I'll defintly be thinking about that as I go about my day.
| Quote: |
| But people don't know in advance what god has in store for them, so how can they know they are sinning then? |
I think its possible to have a general idea. Caring, generous, consernded with justice... In the setting of the book it made more sense. I don't have the book with me right now, and I don't feel comfortable attempting to recreate it from memory, as I tend to miss important factors. When I get the book back I shoot through that part again and then could probafbly better answer.
| Quote: |
Thats only when you're having (or wanting) sex, and there al lot more to that woman beside tits of course. Very Happy
After sex the woman becomes a "normal" person again. |
Why can't she be a "normal" person during the sex.
| Quote: |
And don't ever forget that atheist relationships can be as deep and as strong
...just based on friendship and discussing the world, the way you're discussing God.
I can also see that not every atheist is like this of course. |
dually noted. I can also see that not every christian is like that either.
| Quote: |
Some things are good about the bible, some things are bad.
Jesus was a remarkable man (if he ever existed), but why should you take as a fact everything they wrote about him?
It's such an old story and there're so many unbelievable things in the bible. |
Thats the part were faith comes along. Every interpratation of the bible has mistakes because all of the manuscripts they come from have discrepancies. It would have been nice if Jesus had miraculously made the printing press, or just miraculously made copies of a perfect bible appear.
Some catch phrases that get thrown about by some christian denominations are the infalibilty and inerrancy of the bible. Basically the Bible is perfect and contains no errors, (I don't know why people of christian religion like to make big words for simple stuff). I think that the original writings might have been perfect, but nobody has the originals, so its kind of a mute point. For me, its not the miracles that interest me, its the teachings. Even if the teachings didn't happen as most bibles report, they are still valid teachings for me.
| Quote: |
....but what do you exactly mean with this line:
"I definetly didn't get any hint of hurtfulness out of your post, something that not many christians I've conversed with online can say".
I hope it's not that almost every other christian online is hurt indeed, by my posts Crying or Very sad Laughing Wink |
Thats alot of emition in one line, I'm impressed 
What I meant was in my conversations online with other christians I tend to be told that I am wrong and they are right, and if I don't agree with what they say is right I am going to burn in hell for eternity. And other stuff like they can't believe I am allowed to do ministry. One person even said that they will be praying for my mortal soul along with the souls of every person I minister to, and that he would get his small group to do the same. So, in other words, and I hope you don't take offense to this in any way at all, in our discussion you have acted more like christ than many people who bear the name have in the past.
A friend of mine once said that some christian discussion boards are more like agree or burn boards. Not the coolest quote ever, but it holds true in many cases. Luckily, I've found a place called theOoze.com where there are people welcome to discussion, like I've seen here. | Lennon wrote: |
Exactly... He gives us the law and gives us the free will to obey the law. If we abuse our free will or our freedom we hold ourselves responsible.
Feelings and habits are all thought processes. Unconscious thoughts are almost beyond control and if we have negative unconscious thoughts (some say devil-temptation) then it's almost beyond our responsibility.
But thoughts are the source of our actions. |
What about the religions that don't follow God? If god gave us free will, I have to ask, why would not believing in him be a transgression. Free will would have been bestowed upon man via god, so in exercising your free will you would not be committing a sin, after all, it was a gift from god!
Thoughts are less of a source of our actions than past experience. Transgression is subjective to one's beliefs and experience. As humans we are subjected to behaviour modifications on every level of our lives. Religion, work, family, friends, government, etc... all play a roll in developing our beliefs, fears, joys and sorrows. without external conditioning who knows what are limits would be.
My definition of a sin would frolic more a long the lines of what an individual can and can't consciously live with. If you can steal clear of conscience then you have committed no sin. To merely think of another woman or man in a lustful manner, IMO, is not a sin.
There are greater transgressions in the world today, one of the greatest is the Religion/Government subjugation of man rendering him impotent and unable to think.
Dari personally believe, that you cannot really commit sins through thoughts, it is natural for people to think bad thoughts and usually u catch yourself doing it and stop. I have thought about the craziest things and have no traces of a record or anything. In the end I believe god will be happy u seperated your thoughts from your actual actions, because a failure to do so will lead to sin.
Ok, after reading through some posts I was reminded of some discussions I've had in the past, that pretty much connect directly. Since y'all are probably getting sick of reading stuff I type (I have alot of free time to kill, and I love procrastanating, so i tend to post alot now), I'll try to keep it short and still make the points I want to make.
Many theologinas tend to agree that there is Sin, and then there are sins. Sin with a capital S is like a disease that we all have, its like our seperation from god. Then the sins, little s, is the actions resulting from that. Using the disease analogy, Sin would be a cold, sins would the symptoms, sneezing, stuffed nose...
With that difference in mind, our thoughts could be a sin because they can come from the Sin that we have within us. Our thoughts are a more direct link to our heart, they reveal our true selves better than our actions tend to do. I couldn't even begin to count how many times I'm been sitting in a class room during a boring lecture where my thoughts and my actions were totally different. You wouldn't have to look to hard in the New Testament to see that God/Jesus is more concerned about thier thoughts than thier actions, just look at any of his dealings with the pharisees.
Christianity was never meant to be a religion of sin management, or in my humbel opinion a religion at all. It's suppose to be an amazing life changing journey with God to to bring heaven down to earth; not saying some prayers and acting right to be able to leave earth and go to heaven. Unfortunately there seems to be more of the second than the first.
Thoughts?
Sin by definition in the Bible can be a thought, deed, etc. If we think something that is wrong, it is a sin, and we'd better take care of it before it becomes a problem.
Using Sin and sin is liking saying that there is a lie and there is a little white lie. Both are lies, and sin is sin. There is no difference between Sin and sin. Perhaps you are referring to our innate sin nature?
| Rocky3478 wrote: |
| There is no difference between Sin and sin. Perhaps you are referring to our innate sin nature? |
thats what this paragraph was suppose to convey. I ty ro steer clear of "christianeese" saysing like innate sin nature.
| a_dubDesign wrote: |
Many theologinas tend to agree that there is Sin, and then there are sins. Sin with a capital S is like a disease that we all have, its like our seperation from god. Then the sins, little s, is the actions resulting from that. Using the disease analogy, Sin would be a cold, sins would the symptoms, sneezing, stuffed nose... |
Humans have evolved from a superstition being believing in lore and magic into well educated creatures assiduous in the search for facts and logic. Todays society is in need of revisions from the antiquated definitions that are stressed within the bible.
We observe the metamorphosis in each and every generation. We,as children, had our own values and rules, yet struggled to maintain a sense of morality. As parents we observe the same struggles in our children, yet they push the envelope ever slightly more.
We see these changes in the movies we watch and the books we read! What was acceptable 60 years ago, has gone far and beyond the moral boundaries of those times. Medicine has evolved, could you imagine that only one hundred years ago, man's life expectancy was a mere 47 years old.(fact)
So I have to ask, why would we continue to place value in definitions that were penned in 1445 B.C.(approx)? These archaic definitions need to be amended to reflect our era, thought as a sin sounds obsolete. Umberto Eco's "In the name of the rose" says it all, through education man will lose the need for god.
Just an opinion,
Dar.
| Valleyman wrote: |
| Sinning by thought is a really silly concept, the same way that being persecuted for thought is very silly. It is your actions that matter, not your thoughts. For the most part there is a direct correlation between your thoughts and your actions, however this is not always the case. And if you have the strength of will to resist the temptation and the thought and not commit a sinful action you should be rewarded if anything. |
I completely agree with Valleyman. If you could sin by thought, then every human would be a sinner. And then the concept 'sinner' actually loses it value. I think it's quite impossibile to direct your thoughts. | Gieter wrote: |
I completely agree with Valleyman. If you could sin by thought, then every human would be a sinner. And then the concept 'sinner' actually loses it value. |
Actually one of the beliefs of christianity is that we are all sinners. It probably does lose at least some of it value, at least until one hits rock bottom.
| Gieter wrote: |
I think it's quite impossibile to direct your thoughts.
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I may agree with you, its probably just the impossible part that is throwing me off. I tend to disagree with statements that use impossible. But Christianity isn't* suppose to be about sin management, directing your thoughts, its suppose to be a transformation of who we are at the very base of ourselves.
*edited later to change is to isn't once I realized my mistake
Last edited by a_dubDesign on Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:21 pm; edited 1 time in total | a_dubDesign wrote: |
| Quote: | | I recently red somewhere: "The last Christian died on the cross". |
Do you happen to remember where it was you read that? I'd be interested in reading the thoughts of the person who wrote that. It reminds me of the saying "The problem with christanity is the christians". Some people expect us christians to be perfect, but no matter what we're still humans who make mistakes. However, many of us christians use that as an excuse to justify behavior that is against the teachings of Jesus, and many of us should know better.
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It was Karl Marx!!!
I red it here http://forums.intpcentral.com/ because it was in somebody's signature, but it's quite an interesting site anyway.
I think it appealled to you because in fact Jezus was the first communist
....by lifting the poor up (in the eyes of God) for example.
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I think the "ultimate reality", that you better live in tune with, is found in the way our mind is made.
You believe your mind is made by God, so you think you have to live in tune with your religion (to accept yourself).
I believe my mind is made by nature (in a Darwinistic way), so I can accept it as it is, and just work to keep it satisfied
...by developing good relationships with others, having sex, seeing/learning new things and so on. |
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Very interesting thoughts here. I'll defintly be thinking about that as I go about my day.
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So ...did it change your mind, or did it stay exactly as it was?
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| But people don't know in advance what god has in store for them, so how can they know they are sinning then? |
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I think its possible to have a general idea. Caring, generous, consernded with justice... In the setting of the book it made more sense. I don't have the book with me right now, and I don't feel comfortable attempting to recreate it from memory, as I tend to miss important factors. When I get the book back I shoot through that part again and then could probafbly better answer.
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As far as I'm concerned that's not nececary.
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Thats only when you're having (or wanting) sex, and there al lot more to that woman beside tits of course. Very Happy
After sex the woman becomes a "normal" person again. |
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Why can't she be a "normal" person during the sex.
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During sex look I at her in a different way than "normal".
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And don't ever forget that atheist relationships can be as deep and as strong
...just based on friendship and discussing the world, the way you're discussing God.
I can also see that not every atheist is like this of course. |
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dually noted. I can also see that not every christian is like that either.
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I new, so that's tripple.
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Some things are good about the bible, some things are bad.
Jesus was a remarkable man (if he ever existed), but why should you take as a fact everything they wrote about him?
It's such an old story and there're so many unbelievable things in the bible. |
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Thats the part were faith comes along. Every interpratation of the bible has mistakes because all of the manuscripts they come from have discrepancies. It would have been nice if Jesus had miraculously made the printing press, or just miraculously made copies of a perfect bible appear.
Some catch phrases that get thrown about by some christian denominations are the infalibilty and inerrancy of the bible. Basically the Bible is perfect and contains no errors, (I don't know why people of christian religion like to make big words for simple stuff). I think that the original writings might have been perfect, but nobody has the originals, so its kind of a mute point. For me, its not the miracles that interest me, its the teachings. Even if the teachings didn't happen as most bibles report, they are still valid teachings for me.
| Quote: | ....but what do you exactly mean with this line:
"I definetly didn't get any hint of hurtfulness out of your post, something that not many christians I've conversed with online can say".
I hope it's not that almost every other christian online is hurt indeed, by my posts Crying or Very sad Laughing Wink |
Thats alot of emition in one line, I'm impressed
What I meant was in my conversations online with other christians I tend to be told that I am wrong and they are right, and if I don't agree with what they say is right I am going to burn in hell for eternity. And other stuff like they can't believe I am allowed to do ministry. One person even said that they will be praying for my mortal soul along with the souls of every person I minister to, and that he would get his small group to do the same. So, in other words, and I hope you don't take offense to this in any way at all, in our discussion you have acted more like christ than many people who bear the name have in the past.
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Well, religion tends do drive people to extremes I think. Like your friend has noticed also.
So after all it's maybe not al that moral, to be a Christian, or a muslim and so on.
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A friend of mine once said that some christian discussion boards are more like agree or burn boards. Not the coolest quote ever, but it holds true in many cases. Luckily, I've found a place called theOoze.com where there are people welcome to discussion, like I've seen here.
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I'm only here for my postcount! | pietertje wrote: |
It was Karl Marx!!!
I red it here http://forums.intpcentral.com/ because it was in somebody's signature, but it's quite an interesting site anyway.
I think it appealled to you because in fact Jezus was the first communist
....by lifting the poor up (in the eyes of God) for example. |
I agree, theres alot in common with communist and how the Church (big C meaning followers of Christ, as opposed to little c meaning a church building/service) should work. Thats a big should though.
| pietertje wrote: |
Well, religion tends do drive people to extremes I think. Like your friend has noticed also.
So after all it's maybe not al that moral, to be a Christian, or a muslim and so on. |
Agreed, no religion has a monopoly on morals. After all, religion is just a set of rules and practices. I doubt that Christanity as we have it today is what Jesus had in mind when he was here. | a_dubDesign wrote: |
| Gieter wrote: |
I completely agree with Valleyman. If you could sin by thought, then every human would be a sinner. And then the concept 'sinner' actually loses it value. |
Actually one of the beliefs of christianity is that we are all sinners. It probably does lose at least some of it value, at least until one hits rock bottom.
| Gieter wrote: |
I think it's quite impossibile to direct your thoughts.
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I may agree with you, its probably just the impossible part that is throwing me off. I tend to disagree with statements that use impossible. But Christianity is suppose to be about sin management, directing your thoughts, its suppose to be a transformation of who we are at the very base of ourselves. |
I didn't use a 'full' impossible, quite impossible, it is possible I think but it must be outrageous difficult. | Gieter wrote: |
I didn't use a 'full' impossible, quite impossible, it is possible I think but it must be outrageous difficult. |
I would agree witht he outrageous difficulty.Well, it all depends on how you take the thoughts you have and deal with them. If you just think about them for a second or teo and then try to forget it, sure that's fine. I mean, with all the things on tv and in the media we, as humans, are bound to think about things when we are just bored and our mins are idle. But, if we dwell on those thoughts, ecspecially for the purpose of sexual arrousement, then that is sinning. If, and this usually happens when you dwell and dwell and dwell on a certain thought, you take them into action this is a large sin depending on what it is. Now, not all thoughts are sinnful. Otherwise, people would have never invented the computer and I wouldn't be telling you this right now so...
I do not believe it is possible to sin by thought. A thought and a feeling is for you and you alone - no matter what your religion or faith, you will always have thoughts and feelings. This is a completely natural human emotion and process. How could this possibly be a sin? Is it a sin to breathe? Or for your heart to beat?
Good people may have bad thoughts, but this is not a sin. It is a sin if you decide to act on these bad thoughts that you know to be wrong.
I have a practical example that will prove my theory:
Do not think about the sky - it is a sin
I said it's a sin, but who could read that and not think of the sky, clouds, blue, or whatever the sky means to you. Just because someone says "this is a sin" does not make you a bad person for thinking about it. You therefore can not sin by thought.
| Animal wrote: |
Do not think about the sky - it is a sin
I said it's a sin, but who could read that and not think of the sky, clouds, blue, or whatever the sky means to you. Just because someone says "this is a sin" does not make you a bad person for thinking about it. You therefore can not sin by thought.
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then again someone could argue your authority on saying its a sin
I defintely get what your saying. Its like the penguin game, don't think about penguins, if you do you lose. The second you even think about the game you've lost.Animal,
We are taught, through religion, that certain thoughts are sins, One is to covet, another, envy. These thoughts can lead to disastrous results such as; murder, family break up, and so on. So, I ask, can a thought be a sin? I believe that it can, although I think that the notion is preposterous.
If you are taught that "thinking of the sky" is a sin, and you honestly believe that it is, and every time you think of the sky you feel guilty, then the master plan worked. It's all about conformity, and control.
Dar Please, pay a lot of attention in what I am saying. There are no sins. the sins are basic actions that you may avoid. However, every different place have your different sins. I can tell for sure that what we call sin is a very old fashioned way of mind control, created by people who just can't explain the origins, of the sins, nor the bases of them.
I do believe in the good common sense. Nowadays, i can feel a global sense overtaking the planet, bringing more good conquers to those who really need to conquer. There are no sins, there are crimes. This is how we should think. A global law, wich says what is crime don't matter where you are, or who you are. The sins are still here because the strongest people wants them. The poorest people just can't do anything else but accept the existance of sins, and the fact that they can't do anything to change these traditions we call sins. Forget what they tell you what is sin, and pay more attention to what really matter!
| vinix wrote: |
Please, pay a lot of attention in what I am saying. There are no sins. the sins are basic actions that you may avoid. However, every different place have your different sins. I can tell for sure that what we call sin is a very old fashioned way of mind control, created by people who just can't explain the origins, of the sins, nor the bases of them.
I do believe in the good common sense. Nowadays, i can feel a global sense overtaking the planet, bringing more good conquers to those who really need to conquer. There are no sins, there are crimes. This is how we should think. A global law, wich says what is crime don't matter where you are, or who you are. The sins are still here because the strongest people wants them. The poorest people just can't do anything else but accept the existance of sins, and the fact that they can't do anything to change these traditions we call sins. Forget what they tell you what is sin, and pay more attention to what really matter! |
I agree with you one some points. But it's the Christian tradition (Jewish, probably Muslim too) to call crimes in religion 'sins.' We can't force tthose people to stop thinking that way.
What you're saying looks a lot like what Immanual Kant said. If you don't know much about him, you should look him up, he will probably interest you.
I think that you should treat people like you want to be treated by them. Yes, it comes out of the Bible, but this way it's easy to make up for yourself what is good and what is wright. The categorical imperative of Kant is a bit the same, only it has another starting point. The only problem with these two things is that they can't be used for all problems, like abortus and euthanasia.
