l left for awhile, because l was tired of seeing all these anti-Christian threads, and evolutionists ranting on about their relegion 
.
l now return about a month later, to see the same damn thing, what the hell?! Do you people seriously just hate the fact that there is no concievable way that you could exist if you were not created first? Or are you nihilistic bastards just afraid to admit the truth that there is a God, and HE did create you, the earth, all things living and dead, the universe, whatever?
l am glad to see that some people have still been defending the Christians, but for the rest of you that would ignoranly deny the existance of anything without any real research, How dare you! The majority of the evolutionists consider themselves to be educated men (or women), but if you were really educated, you would be able to open your minds to the possibilities! Fifty years ago, who would have thought that we could accomplish the things we can do now? Surely you can't think that your first ASSUMPPTION is going to be accurate, or even anywhere near the truth!!
Those of you slandering Christians because we seek to humble ourselves before God, or because we have faith in God, a force which no one can see, you would claim that we are ignorant or un-educated? You would rather put your faith in bacteria and a random explosion of gases?! What sense does this make?
And evolution, it is understandable that if you drop a monkey in a new environment, then it will adapt, does this mean that it will shed all its fur over a long time perion, straighten its back and learn to speak in a civilized manner? NO!! If an eel where to get stuck on land, would it grow legs and lungs to survive? NO!! Evolution has NO factual information!! Why would those who claim to be educated believe in this crap?! Yes! Am a scientific bastard and since there is not an exeriment proving that there is a god, i belive that i will only be eaten by worms when i die.Also and if there is a god I DO NOT CARE! Does he cares about the thousand dead children every day?And what is that egoistic "Belive in me!".
On the other hand there are facts on how we evolve from the sea and that no god felt like pottering and made us!
Amusingly enough, first you say you left the forum for a month because of all the "anti-Christian" threads, and their constant anti-God rants... then you procede on a rant yourself, using foul language and proceeding to press your beliefs on everyone else on the forum... perhaps if you read some of the threads, you'd notice that most of the anti-God people are not really as much anti-God as you think they are... they are just sick of having members from each religion trying to say that their God is the best and most powerful and we should all believe Him or go to hell... well, personally, I am sick of that.
About anti-Christian threads? You are basing this on what? On one thread that asks "Are Christians educated?" Have you looked through the Discuss World News forum? There is a new anti-Muslim thread started almost every 3-4 days. Even in most of the threads in the General Chat forum, loads of replies are anti-Islam. As far as agnostics and atheists are concerned, they'll write about God(s) in general, and generally don't refer to the "God" of one religion. Christians in this forum are not as badly targetted as Muslims are.
| Quote: |
| Surely you can't think that your first ASSUMPPTION is going to be accurate, or even anywhere near the truth!! |
So why do you assume that what you believe in is accurate? There is no proof for Genesis either. It's just a question of belief. If you consider evolutionists to be stupid, I consider it even more stupid to consider someone else stupid because they don't have 100% proof, when you yourself don't have proof... just theories.
| Quote: |
| Those of you slandering Christians because we seek to humble ourselves before God, |
Probably the most amusing part of your post. "Humbling" yourselves eh? Have you seen some of the pro-Christian posts in this forum? They are anything but humble, constantly shouting that all other beliefs are evil... all who don't conform are wrong... all who don't conform are ignorant... all who don't conform are stupid... etc etc etc... let me take a few lines from your own post for example:
| Quote: |
| Or are you nihilistic bastards... |
| Quote: |
| open your minds to the possibilities! |
| Quote: |
| What sense does this make? |
| Quote: |
| Why would those who claim to be educated believe in this crap?! |
Like I said before, whether you decide to believe in evolution or Genesis is a question of your personal choice and faith. I believe in God, but I believe in evolution too.
| Quote: |
| does this mean that it will shed all its fur over a long time perion, straighten its back and learn to speak in a civilized manner? NO!! |
And why the hell not? Because you don't believe in it?
By the way, evolution like this would take thousands of years, so you wouldn't be able to tell now would you?
| Quote: |
| If an eel where to get stuck on land, would it grow legs and lungs to survive? NO!! |
If you pick an eel, and put in on land, it would die... but over a long period of time, if eels had to adapt to changing conditions... scarcity of water, for example, then they'd probably grow at least some kind of limbs to enable locomotion (if they decide to need to locomote, that is) Why u say we all hate god ? 
i love my god
AMEN 
ok ppl generally don't trust god because of the church! i mean the are stingy bums! I mean look at the medievil ages when the church sold pieces of paper to get rid of sin i mean BFS. and take Mormonism they take like a 1/4 of your yearly pay(i think) anyway thats why ppl don't like God or religion!
My feelings are wat i just said and also who knows if the bible is true it could be some story some person wrote when they got bored!
sorry if i hurt your feelings.
I don't hate God.
But then I see posts like this, and I feel tempted to.
You Europeans were too stupid to have a good religion, it is why you all accepted a religion fron asia (Jesus Christ was Asian).
Today, you are deciding the future of the world.
Is it not a good example of evolution? 
Last edited by nam_siddharth on Sun Feb 12, 2006 5:26 pm; edited 1 time in total | KHO wrote: |
| And evolution, it is understandable that if you drop a monkey in a new environment, then it will adapt, does this mean that it will shed all its fur over a long time perion, straighten its back and learn to speak in a civilized manner? NO!! If an eel where to get stuck on land, would it grow legs and lungs to survive? NO!! Evolution has NO factual information!! Why would those who claim to be educated believe in this crap?! |
Aaargh... I'll repeat the same for the last time: The theory of evolution is NOT against Bible, because what matters in Bible is only the spiritual part of reality. Genesis does NOT describe how the world began, but and who created it and why. And the theory of evolution has simply much more evidence than creationism.
| Quote: |
I don't hate God.
But then I see posts like this, and I feel tempted to. |
And here's the answer why there're so many anti-Christian threads, it's because of the fanatics who try to persuade the people by force or 'obvious evidences' that they are wrong, insulting them all the time. KHO, writing in this style you may offend not only the atheists (what is actually their own personal choice and you have no business in it) but also Christians like me who don't want to be considered as a mad fanatic. Sorry, but in my opinion Christians should give only a good example to the others, not shout at them.
Full respect for tidruG. 
| Quote: |
| Yes! Am a scientific bastard and since there is not an exeriment proving that there is a god, i belive that i will only be eaten by worms when i die.Also and if there is a god I DO NOT CARE! Does he cares about the thousand dead children every day?And what is that egoistic "Belive in me!". |
Well, I actually think I could explain this to you, but I guess you don't wanna know the answer, you just express yourself . But if you'd like to talk about it, just simply tell me ;] | KHO wrote: |
| ... HE did create you, the earth, all things living and dead, the universe, whatever? |
You are entitled to your opinion, just as everyone else is entitled to their own. There are very few people who use the forum who say "I'm right, you're all wrong. Believe in the God that I believe in or else..."
You're one of those people, unfortunately.I dislike governing systems based on religions, it's middleage mentality in my eyes.
Religion just confuses me... 
I know someone is up there....I just don't know who... | Travelmom wrote: |
| I dislike governing systems based on religions, it's middleage mentality in my eyes. |
But Christians gave it up in medieval times, only some of the muslim countries have something like this | KHO wrote: |
l left for awhile, because l was tired of seeing all these anti-Christian threads, and evolutionists ranting on about their relegion .
l now return about a month later, to see the same damn thing, what the hell?! Do you people seriously just hate the fact that there is no concievable way that you could exist if you were not created first? Or are you nihilistic bastards just afraid to admit the truth that there is a God, and HE did create you, the earth, all things living and dead, the universe, whatever?
l am glad to see that some people have still been defending the Christians, but for the rest of you that would ignoranly deny the existance of anything without any real research, How dare you! The majority of the evolutionists consider themselves to be educated men (or women), but if you were really educated, you would be able to open your minds to the possibilities! Fifty years ago, who would have thought that we could accomplish the things we can do now? Surely you can't think that your first ASSUMPPTION is going to be accurate, or even anywhere near the truth!!
Those of you slandering Christians because we seek to humble ourselves before God, or because we have faith in God, a force which no one can see, you would claim that we are ignorant or un-educated? You would rather put your faith in bacteria and a random explosion of gases?! What sense does this make?
And evolution, it is understandable that if you drop a monkey in a new environment, then it will adapt, does this mean that it will shed all its fur over a long time perion, straighten its back and learn to speak in a civilized manner? NO!! If an eel where to get stuck on land, would it grow legs and lungs to survive? NO!! Evolution has NO factual information!! Why would those who claim to be educated believe in this crap?! |
Wow Lot of text.
Why all this? Never noticed any 'get god down' texts around here. And it is allowed to give (nearly) any your opinion i believe.
Last edited by devroom on Sun Feb 12, 2006 5:34 pm; edited 1 time in totali don't hate god simply because of the reason that:
GOD DOES NOT EXIST. IN ANY FORM.
We are what we fu ck ing are!
We're not in the middle ages anymore when life was so crap that people needed religion, we're not in the time where unexplained phenomena couldn't be explained scientifically so people thought it was religion.
The sooner the world comes to grips with this and uses the wasted energy that they've used on religion and put it to better use like poverty, the environment and beer drinking, the better off we'll all be.
God there are some stupid people here
I'm neutral concerning this (I couldn't care less how people think themselves to be so great by putting down somebody else's opinion, whether that be Christian or anti-Christian), but I notice some strange things on the forums. | Animal wrote: |
| You are entitled to your opinion, just as everyone else is entitled to their own. There are very few people who use the forum who say "I'm right, you're all wrong. Believe in the God that I believe in or else..." |
Most of the people with that attitude seem to be believers in science (this is a reference to my posts in the science vs religion topic) that say "Christians are all wrong". The idea that Christians would be forcing their opinion on others seems a big prejudice to me. Everywhere here I hear people shouting that the believers should shut up, a lot more than I actually hear those believers. So obviously I'm rather annoyed by those people that keep bashing Christianity: it's not scientifical, it's medieval, it's this, it's that. If you don't believe in science you're an irrational fool! Well, I'd like to make my own choice on that huh!? I'm more annoyed by the anti-Christians forcing their opinion than the Christians.
I mean, come on. For example Skullpizza sees himself as an anti-Christian missionary. Literally, he's preaching. And nobody cares? I just want people like that to shut up and keep their nonsense to themselves. And otherwise don't be so biased to accuse others of preaching. They're making a lot more "repent!" calls than the Christians.
To say this less polite: you are a bunch of stupid hypocrites. I'm not interested in the Christians on the forums, and I hardly notice them anyway. But the anti-religious people keep shouting their opinion and nobody has a problem with that. Just shut up. I don't care about your nonsense. I'm not interested how you're anti-God, anti-Jesus, anti-Bush, nor in how you are so gifted with sarcasm to defend your noble purpose, or for that matter how you follow Crowley's law, how your nickname is derived from mystical nonsense, etcetera. Thanks.
Last edited by Arnie on Sun Feb 12, 2006 4:28 pm; edited 2 times in total well, I dont hate God... but if thats what some of these others believe then let them believe that, if your a true Christian you woudn't be ranting on them about things and cussing.... you would be make a post telling them what you believe and what you think instead of saying it the way you did...
and im sure these people dont hate God they just dont believe in a God it would be better if more people did believe in God but if you want anyone to be convinced you should use a better method and say something more like this...
"Hello everyone... today I would like to say something you dont have to agree but I really wish that I can change someones viewpoint..."
and then tell them about God and the Rapture etc.etc. but bashing everyones believes will not get you anywhere
I myself would like to see more relegious people here
God and i went out drinking one night and he stiffed me with the $100 tab! He was the one getting all of those expensive mixxed drinks!
i've hated him ever since.
I just want to make a comment about something touched on here.
The seperation of Church and State wasn't written about keeping religion out of government. It's about not allowing government to have any say or control in religion. The reason the early Christian church moved away from government is because the government tried to change the rules of christianity. For the same reason, the founding fathers came over to the americas to escape religious persecution. they founded a government that was supposed to have literally no say in religious matters.
it's not about "no saying god in government run places" it's the opposite. no president excommunicating people of his religion from his church for worshipping a different way.
| drunkfun wrote: |
i don't hate god simply because of the reason that:
GOD DOES NOT EXIST. IN ANY FORM.
We are what we fu ck ing are!
We're not in the middle ages anymore when life was so crap that people needed religion, we're not in the time where unexplained phenomena couldn't be explained scientifically so people thought it was religion.
The sooner the world comes to grips with this and uses the wasted energy that they've used on religion and put it to better use like poverty, the environment and beer drinking, the better off we'll all be.
God there are some stupid people here |
Amen brother.
I've never been religious in any way, nor has my family, so I guess that's why. I'm an atheist, so I don't think there's anyone or anything out there "looking out for us" (unless you count them aliens).. I respect people's decissions concerning religion for the most part.. Unless they throw it in my face, trying to convince me their way of thinking is the only right way and I'm on the path to hell for having my own ideas..
Further, for no reason, here's a snippet from the song The Fight Song by M.Manson: | Quote: |
But I'm not a slave to a god
that doesn't exist
But I'm not a slave to a world
that doesn't give a s**t |
Well, i dont hate god.
We really don't know if he exists or if he's a figment of our imagination to tell you the truth.
But if you believe, than anything is possible.
This needs to be locked. I don't believe topics like this need to exist on this forum. My god is my moderator. Close this topic. It's pointless. No. I'm not athiest. I just don't care, and I don't want to lie about something I have no proof of. That's why I'm not a preacher. And this argumentative crowd is why this topic needs to be locked.
I dont hate god since i dont believe in him how can i hate him? All i hate is all these "you will go to hell" "believe or burn" ... bible hugging religious fantatics like u (believe me i had enough since like 80% population of my country are christians or atleast they say so). Am i the one going out and judge em or even try to convince em that not believing in god is better and they should be atheists? No. I dont care i want my beliefs and i dont care about urs, as far as i am concerned u can believe in the all mighty holy can of coca cola.
"Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live." -- Oscar Wilde
I dont hate him, I just dont belive in him.
Im suprised how anyone can belive that there is some flying ghost who created us all.
Its just... absurd. Completely insane!
I was talking to this priest at a local church who i hadn't met for years.
It was just after the tsunami.
He was extremely happy, i asked him why.
His answer shook me.
He said,
You know about the tsunami? Its so great! I have never seen such a miracle in my time!
I was so shocked i just gaped at him.
Then he continued.
God is so great! Think of all the country's that have been brought together by this! Everybody helping each other.
Some might think he's just an positive-extremist?
I think its just gross!
I am an atheist, a heretical non-believer. To answer the question posed by the topic: I hate god because he's a massive sadist and an egomaniac. Or I would, if he existed. How can I say this, you ask? Because I have endured nine years of Sunday School and have read a not insignificant amount of the bible and still go to church (the youth group is awesome).
As to how I can believe in evolution: because it makes so much more sense than creationism or any other theories that I've heard about. It works of the fewest presuppositions (ideas that can't be proved) and makes the most sense.
| KHO wrote: |
| l am glad to see that some people have still been defending the Christians, but for the rest of you that would ignoranly deny the existance of anything without any real research, How dare you! Neutral The majority of the evolutionists consider themselves to be educated men (or women), but if you were really educated, you would be able to open your minds to the possibilities! Fifty years ago, who would have thought that we could accomplish the things we can do now? Surely you can't think that your first ASSUMPPTION is going to be accurate, or even anywhere near the truth!! |
You want to speak of assumptions? What about your assumptions? That the bible is the infallible word of God, that God exists, etc. Before you attack other people's assumptions you might want to take a good look at your own.
Finally a good old quote from Bash.org:
<XnD> Personally its not God I dislike, its his fan club I cant stand | nam_siddharth wrote: |
You Europeans were too stupid to have a good religion, it is why you all accepted a religion fron asia (Jesus Christ was Asian).
Today, you are deciding the future of the world.
Is it not a good example of evolution? |
I feel like giving up on talking about God coz it's so demotivating with all the arguements. I find some element of stupidity or ignorance or other unawareness that we can't explain God or religion factually. Since I'm an Irish Catholic I should be very fluent in religion, but yet I can't prove anything by debating or arguing. Especially in this forum where so many people just opinioned and beliefs without facts or statistics. But yet deep down I'm still looking for answers and I will share whatever I find along the way.Why don't i believe in religion? well thats quite simple, most religions have or at one point were corrupt, youl probably say why did so many people support the pope in the mideval ages then?? for one simple reason the church dealt with uneducated people who were to weak minded to see that they were being manipulated, I will give an example of this. A man walks into your school room and asks you all to walk to los angeles and fight all the gangs in north LA, south LA and east LA. In the event that you survive your reward will be to walk back home! would you do this?? hell no you know better then that! Now lets take a look at the midieval version of this, which did actually happen so you cant say it didnt. during the midieval ages the pope started an era known as the crusades, in which the pope or his bishops went to a village and told them all to march to the holy lands and re-claim them in the name of god, keep in mind that most of these people were peasants and had to walk there on foot! and in that era walking to the fallen holy lands took about a year to do. All these peasants and knights gladly stood up and rode to the fallen holy lands to fight these barbarians, even though the barbarians like the gangs of LA had a huge advantage over them. And your probably wondering whats your reward in the event that your one of the 10 people not killed?? you guessed it! you get to walk back home! what a generous man wouldn't you say?
Eventually the pope even went as far as sending children to the fallen holy lands to re-claim them, when all these kids were sold off to slavery and other thing like this, the people started to think for them selfs, Hey pope that was my little boy! my only child! why did you send him to his death??
After this the popes power dropped to a point in which the people could re-take their lands and think for themselfs. So damn strait I have a problem with power hungly religions like this one.
Last edited by Reaper on Sun Feb 12, 2006 8:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
hi,
reading that post, I couldnt passed without give my judgment .
You mixe two thing, god and religion.
I believe in god, my god. but what is god (for me). Certainly not a guys with a long beard, or a guys who 's contribut to lose unicorn animal and save moise or what ever you want.
My god is more simply, it's just a big bag with all response of all question than I can ask myself. there a lot of question, so there lots of response and so
god will exist all the time (infinit of response). that vision for me has lots of advantage. you can insult him (caricature) or whatever you want. it's not him who unhand answord, it's human who found something...etc...Etc...
BUT I don't believe in religion, Jesus, Mohamet and other thing....
I don't believe that jesus is the son of god I better perfer believe that marie was a easy girl and condom campagne was not the first preoccupation if the gourvernement , and They no choise to say a big lie to josef .
That is on what I believe.
for the human born, we know today that live doesn't from earth(miller experience). and I prefer thing that we are a miss experience from alien than believe that the world was create in 7 days.
If god made human at his picture , god is front of a good football match with a bier in a hand and scratch his balls with the others.
I just remember to you that the first mortality reason to humanity is religion, not AIS, not cancer, not natural cause and certainly not god
a+++
Because these people don't know God, and when they don't know something, they are afraid of it.
Open your hearts.
| Soulfire wrote: |
Because these people don't know God, and when they don't know something, they are afraid of it.
Open your hearts. |
And some people are afraid of the idea that nothing is here for a reason, and when they panic from a lack of identity, they may create imaginary friends. Open your MIND.I hate god cause he stole my lunch money.
| a.Bird wrote: |
| Soulfire wrote: | Because these people don't know God, and when they don't know something, they are afraid of it.
Open your hearts. |
And some people are afraid of the idea that nothing is here for a reason, and when they panic from a lack of identity, they may create imaginary friends. Open your MIND. |
My mind is open, I'm just Christian, and you can't change that. I'm not afraid to display my belief. | Soulfire wrote: |
| a.Bird wrote: | | Soulfire wrote: | Because these people don't know God, and when they don't know something, they are afraid of it.
Open your hearts. |
And some people are afraid of the idea that nothing is here for a reason, and when they panic from a lack of identity, they may create imaginary friends. Open your MIND. |
My mind is open, I'm just Christian, and you can't change that. I'm not afraid to display my belief. |
If your mind was truly open, I would think you wouldn't be so pretentious as to assume that people don't believe in God because they are afraid of him.
I don't believe in Him, and my heart is open to you as a fellow human, but I am not afraid to contest your ideas to see if you can think outside of your own perspective.It's unfortunate you have no faith, but I am Christian, like I said. That is what I believe, that is what I perceive. Why think different? There's no reason to think any different. There's no reason to listen to you, just as much as you don't have to listen to me.
i dont hate any god or religion i yust dont belive in any of it and i for one is tierd of ppl trying to force ther belives on me. not that any body here have but im sure thats just a mader of time
What is it with you ppl who don´t believe in evolution. What is it with America, where the creation must be in schoolbooks aswell as the evolution "theory".
You are just stuck in the 1850s people! I mean, I study geology and have made courses in paeleontology. If you would just pick up some books or visit some classes.
Ok. Maybe there is a god. I don´t hate him (then I would be saying he exists), how could I hate him. But why is it that the church, through history, are so abusive? There are so many bad things the church and priests have made. How can one still think that god is good (if one believes).
The church stood so long in the way of science, because it didn´t want to loose its influence. If you, as a geologist in the 1800s, had a great revolutionary idea you would have been flocked or something like that.
The focus is not on the person.
Why aren´t catholic preasts allowed to marry? Because when he would die, the assets would go to the wife. We surely don´t want that.
+ It just gets me so round up and angry reading that stuff about the evolution. How stupid can people just be?
| Soulfire wrote: |
| It's unfortunate you have no faith, but I am Christian, like I said. That is what I believe, that is what I perceive. Why think different? There's no reason to think any different. There's no reason to listen to you, just as much as you don't have to listen to me. |
You are very wrong my friend. I have every reason to want to listen to you. I am INTREGUED by the way you percieve the existence of God. I'm hoping to share my ideas with you. I'm hoping to get your ideas from you that I may not have thought of before. I'm hoping to expand my cultivated perspective of the world.
I know you are Christian, and I know that you are in control of that Label. But "why think different?" ?! What if you thought differently and realized that what you had previously thought about God was something you no longer believed in. What if you felt MORE spiritually awakened and influenced than you did when you believed in his existence? The way you say "why think different?" lends me to believe that you are actually afraid of losing your faith and seeing the world through a different lens.Sometimes when i look around me and all whats happening i have this feeling that even if there was a god the Christians would be the last ones that would end up in heaven. All they do is wave their hands and shout their beliefs, only judge and its them who throw the stones first, but thats all, they rarely even behave like they say we others should do. They are just parody of themselves. Of course there are Christians that arent so full of themselves, that dont need to shove their believes down our throats, i wish all of em would be like that but the truth is not like that. 
| Sappho wrote: |
| Sometimes when i look around me and all whats happening i have this feeling that even if there was a god the Christians would be the last ones that would end up in heaven. All they do is wave their hands and shout their beliefs, only judge and its them who throw the stones first, but thats all, they rarely even behave like they say we others should do. They are just parody of themselves. Of course there are Christians that arent so full of themselves, that dont need to shove their believes down our throats, i wish all of em would be like that but the truth is not like that. |
You can't misinterpret things people say. I profess my faith, I am not ashamed to believe, and I want people to know I am Christian, but I don't force it "down people's throats."
Forgive them for wanting to save you.Being a "non-believer" seems to be the new trend everywhere. Next, it will be worshipping pants.
How can I possibly hate something that doesn't exist? That's like people complaining how much they hate people who hate dragons.
ALso... ARGH! The flame(ing)! It burns!
God exists, my friends. But your judgement comes later. And it's not so much they hate God than they shut it all out.
Maybe they're threatened, they tremble at the thought of someone more powerful than themselves. Maybe they're so used to putting themselves above everyone else that they can't possibly comprehend the thought of someone higher than themselves. Maybe after so long of putting themselves first, they just can't find it to put God first. Ah yes, the deadly sin of Pride.
Notice the "maybe" before all that stuff, before you begin to mindlessly flame me.
| Soulfire wrote: |
| Sappho wrote: | | Sometimes when i look around me and all whats happening i have this feeling that even if there was a god the Christians would be the last ones that would end up in heaven. All they do is wave their hands and shout their beliefs, only judge and its them who throw the stones first, but thats all, they rarely even behave like they say we others should do. They are just parody of themselves. Of course there are Christians that arent so full of themselves, that dont need to shove their believes down our throats, i wish all of em would be like that but the truth is not like that. |
You can't misinterpret things people say. I profess my faith, I am not ashamed to believe, and I want people to know I am Christian, but I don't force it "down people's throats."
Forgive them for wanting to save you. |
I think that is exactly what he means by forcing it down people's throats. The way you pretentiously imply that people who don't believe in God need to be saved is just as frustrating as having a fist shoved down your esophagus. He doesn't care that they want to save him, he knows that's what they're trying to do and that is why he is feeling so deepthroated.I can't speak for anyone else at FriHost, but I certainly don't hate God. I may not attend services as much as I should, but that doesn't mean I hate God. I also don't CHOSE to get involved with alot of the threads pertaining to God, some I do and some I don't. I do believe you are wrong to say "why does everyone here hate God". A message forum is much like joing an IRC channel, not everthing you see written will be to your liking.
If you don't enjoy the conversation, don't join in.
Since Frihost is a free server, just be happy with the services they provide, and ignore the rest.
| Soulfire wrote: |
God exists, my friends. But your judgement comes later. And it's not so much they hate God than they shut it all out.
Maybe they're threatened, they tremble at the thought of someone more powerful than themselves. Maybe they're so used to putting themselves above everyone else that they can't possibly comprehend the thought of someone higher than themselves. Maybe after so long of putting themselves first, they just can't find it to put God first. Ah yes, the deadly sin of Pride.
Notice the "maybe" before all that stuff, before you begin to mindlessly flame me. |
You are relentless. I know you can't see it, you OBVIOUSLY can't see it, but this know-it-all, unfounded hogwash is what makes people feel so forcefed! You are stating all of this as if it is actually justifiable. The sooner you learn to loose the bullshit bigotry, the sooner people will value what you have to say. You are entitled to your opinions, but opinions begin with "IMO", "It's my belief that", etc. | Jeslyn wrote: |
| Being a "non-believer" seems to be the new trend everywhere. |
It is not new trend dear. Buddha came 550 years before Jesus Christ. | nam_siddharth wrote: |
| Jeslyn wrote: | | Being a "non-believer" seems to be the new trend everywhere. |
It is not new trend dear. Buddha came 550 years before Jesus Christ. |
| a.Bird wrote: |
| Soulfire wrote: | | Sappho wrote: | | Sometimes when i look around me and all whats happening i have this feeling that even if there was a god the Christians would be the last ones that would end up in heaven. All they do is wave their hands and shout their beliefs, only judge and its them who throw the stones first, but thats all, they rarely even behave like they say we others should do. They are just parody of themselves. Of course there are Christians that arent so full of themselves, that dont need to shove their believes down our throats, i wish all of em would be like that but the truth is not like that. |
You can't misinterpret things people say. I profess my faith, I am not ashamed to believe, and I want people to know I am Christian, but I don't force it "down people's throats."
Forgive them for wanting to save you. |
I think that is exactly what he means by forcing it down people's throats. The way you pretentiously imply that people who don't believe in God need to be saved is just as frustrating as having a fist shoved down your esophagus. He doesn't care that they want to save him, he knows that's what they're trying to do and that is why he is feeling so deepthroated. |
I am a girl but except that your perception is quite good, exactly my point, i dont need to be saved but yet they still feel the urge to do so. 
| Arnie wrote: |
Most of the people with that attitude seem to be believers in science (this is a reference to my posts in the science vs religion topic) that say "Christians are all wrong". The idea that Christians would be forcing their opinion on others seems a big prejudice to me. Everywhere here I hear people shouting that the believers should shut up, a lot more than I actually hear those believers. So obviously I'm rather annoyed by those people that keep bashing Christianity: it's not scientifical, it's medieval, it's this, it's that. If you don't believe in science you're an irrational fool! Well, I'd like to make my own choice on that huh!? I'm more annoyed by the anti-Christians forcing their opinion than the Christians.
I mean, come on. For example Skullpizza sees himself as an anti-Christian missionary. Literally, he's preaching. And nobody cares? I just want people like that to shut up and keep their nonsense to themselves. And otherwise don't be so biased to accuse others of preaching. They're making a lot more "repent!" calls than the Christians.
To say this less polite: you are a bunch of stupid hypocrites. I'm not interested in the Christians on the forums, and I hardly notice them anyway. But the anti-religious people keep shouting their opinion and nobody has a problem with that. Just shut up. I don't care about your nonsense. I'm not interested how you're anti-God, anti-Jesus, anti-Bush, nor in how you are so gifted with sarcasm to defend your noble purpose, or for that matter how you follow Crowley's law, how your nickname is derived from mystical nonsense, etcetera. Thanks. |
No offense... but it's pretty ironic that you are actually posting a racy ranty post complaining about racy ranty anti-Christian posts. To be honest, I get annoyed at any kind of rants, but I generally don't go ranting about it.
| Soulfire wrote: |
Because these people don't know God, and when they don't know something, they are afraid of it.
Open your hearts. |
I know God, believe in God, love and trust God... but I'm not so positive on religion. I think I have opened my heart, but also I've opened my eyes/mind.
There you go!
| Soulfire wrote: |
| It's unfortunate you have no faith, but I am Christian, like I said. That is what I believe, that is what I perceive. Why think different? There's no reason to think any different. There's no reason to listen to you, just as much as you don't have to listen to me. |
I'm not Christian, but I still have faith. And since my heart is open, I will listen to what you have to say and even learn from your thoughts and beliefs.
| Quote: |
| But "why think different?" ?! What if you thought differently and realized that what you had previously thought about God was something you no longer believed in. What if you felt MORE spiritually awakened and influenced than you did when you believed in his existence? The way you say "why think different?" lends me to believe that you are actually afraid of losing your faith and seeing the world through a different lens. |
Applause.
| Sappho wrote: |
| Sometimes when i look around me and all whats happening i have this feeling that even if there was a god the Christians would be the last ones that would end up in heaven. All they do is wave their hands and shout their beliefs, only judge and its them who throw the stones first, but thats all, they rarely... |
To give Christians their due, there are a lot more Christians with access to media such as the Internet where they try to convince people of the superiority of their religion over any other religion, than people of any other religion.
| Quote: |
| Forgive them for wanting to save you. |
Maybe you aren't forcing your beliefs down others' throats, but some (or rather, a lot) of other Christians are... and well, "forgive them for wanting to save you"... those kind of threads leads me to believe that you do in fact think Christianity is superior and everyone not conforming needs to be "saved"... I feel safe enough in my pure and quiet belief in God, without having to have anyone else validate my belief in Him.
| Quote: |
Maybe they're threatened, they tremble at the thought of someone more powerful than themselves. Maybe they're so used to putting themselves above everyone else that they can't possibly comprehend the thought of someone higher than themselves. Maybe after so long of putting themselves first, they just can't find it to put God first. Ah yes, the deadly sin of Pride.
Notice the "maybe" before all that stuff, before you begin to mindlessly flame me. |
I did pay attention to the "maybe", but I still have a couple of comments to make about that post... to begin with... "the sin of Pride"... it seems surprising to me that you talk about pride when it seems that most believers have equal (or more) pride due to their believing in God... so much so that they feel that everyone who doesn't believe is downtrodden, damned and needs help. Alternatively, everything who doesn't believe in the Christian God is a heathen or a kafir (both terms used insultingly), which seems to stem from... you guessed it - pride.
Once again, I see my sentiment echoed...
| Quote: |
| The way you pretentiously imply that people who don't believe in God need to be saved is just as frustrating as having a fist shoved down your esophagus. |
KHO: I thought a God was meant to be a personal thing, so why would it matter if someone else's view is radically different, remember if your God is real then you'll be able to maliciously laugh in their faces when they go to hell.
Soulfire: Not afraid, I just enjoy the freedom of exploring our world, my god is the universe and the more I and the human race learn about the universe the closer we are to God. If you want to have a God, go ahead there a wide selection of entities to associate your identity with and become overly self-righteous about.
My view is believe what you want, the only reason for which I would have a go at religion is because it can cause wars when people believe or make others believe that they are fighting for a higher being when that is simply ruining our freedom to believe what we want. Evolution is based on science but if that's not what you want to believe then go ahead, just don't try and stop others persuing it and try to teach others beliefs in place of things with hard evidence.
Can't we all just get along guys/gals? I mean, every person has a right to his or her opinion. If you can't get over that, sit the ****** down and shut the ****** up. Just because someone is anti-God/anti-Christian/anti-Abortion/anti-****** doesn't mean you have to flip out and start stupid flame wars on a chat board. I believe in God and I am certainly proud of it. However, I also respect and do believe in somethings that an "antheist" might believe in. So, in short, quit your bitching if someone doesn't believe the same thing as you. Your post on a web forum isn't suddenly going to open their eyes and allow them to see things your way.
The problem is that your posts here are as "ranty" as mine, Tigdrug. Except even longer.
Anyway, it's not that aspect I'm annoyed of. It's the hypocritical aspect. The focus is on the Christians and not on the anti-Christians who are being a lot worse.
If your destiny was to be stuck in shitty Serbia during these past 10-20 yrs, I would be the one asking why we all hate god!
Well, i don't actually hate god, I hate all the people who hide behind the god and do "noble deeds" in his sake, like crusades, fundamentalist terrorist attacks, or even stupid disputes like "there must be something" or "our lives are being watched" and, my favourite "suffer here you'll be blessed in heaven" how old can you be to believe simething like that? If the church takes your money for your whole life, you will be rewarded in heaven? no, yoú're a naive!!!
A few of you seem to think that religion and god are two completly seperate things, well they aren't, they go hand in hand, If im not mistaken budda or w/e talked to god?? so that would link him to god would it not? there for his entire religion. Also isn't the definition of god simply someone who is all powerful? | Quote: |
| a man of such superior qualities that he seems like a deity to other people; "he was a god among men" |
| Quote: |
| deity: any supernatural being worshipped as controlling some part of the world or some aspect of life or who is the personification of a force |
| Quote: |
| the supernatural being conceived as the perfect and omnipotent and omniscient originator and ruler of the universe; the object of worship in monotheistic religions |
Eh gods the ruler of the universe huh?? funny how they suddenly edit that stuff when they find out the universe existed. Its amazing what we have "Known" from the past to the present, We used to Know that gods were responsible for rain, thunder, droughts and other things like that, We used to know that the world was flat, we used to know that drilling a hole in someones head would release the demons possessing them, there for allowing that person to go to heaven,
A being that controlled part of the world, or an aspect of life? well I guess that makes hitler a god huh?? since he controlled part of the world and controlled if someone died or lived.
So its all about how you see it, and it seems as we develope new technologys we are able to disprove another religious fact. | Reaper wrote: |
| A few of you seem to think that religion and god are two completly seperate things, well they aren't, they go hand in hand, If im not mistaken budda or w/e talked to god?? so that would link him to god would it not? there for his entire religion. Also isn't the definition of god simply someone who is all powerful? |
Umm well truth be told - Buddah was just a philosopher, infact he made his followers promise not to make him into some kind of diety. Unfortunatley this did not happen, although he wasn't thought of as a diety for hundreds of years. The fog of time finally turned his memory into legend and therefore into the realm of the supernatural.
Buddah never really thought of God as we think of God. God to him was simply a state of existence without suffering or desire or more commonly known as Nirvana.
He thought that we all started in this state of nirvana or "being one with God" and somehow forgot how to stay that way and found ourself locked in this eternal cycle of desire vs. suffering.
of course i am not a buddhistand i may be talking out of my ass. please correct me if i'm wrong about any of this. I just went to a buddhist retreat center once. | Arnie wrote: |
| The problem is that your posts here are as "ranty" as mine, Tigdrug. Except even longer. |
Rant = post made out of an angry disposition (or at least one that appears to be). I assure you, I'm generally very calm and composed while making my posts... even if it means I have to wait 5 minutes to calm down, and then start writing... However, we'll leave this as a difference of opinion. But to give you credit, my first post in this thread was a bit of a rant, mostly out of frustration... never mind.
By the way, the length of a post doesn't determine if it's a rant. For example...
"I ****** hate ____. He's so stupid! He's like a daft moron walking the streets with his brains in his knees! What a daft, talentless ******"
(that's a very short post, but an example of a rant)
(PS: You can fill in the blank with anyone in mind... I was focussing on no one in particular while writing it though...)
| Reaper wrote: |
| A few of you seem to think that religion and god are two completly seperate things, well they aren't, they go hand in hand, If im not mistaken budda or w/e talked to god?? so that would link him to god would it not? there for his entire religion. Also isn't the definition of god simply someone who is all powerful? |
Religion and God definitely are 2 very different things. You Buddha example is a good example in my favour. Buddha never spoke of himself as a God... yet, if his followers decided to treat him like a God, then they created a God out of a human.
God is very simply ... God. Religion is a set of rules and doctrines that, in the name of that God, try to tell you how to live and conduct yourself, or what actions are morally right and which ones are immoral.
| Dictionary Meanings of "Religion" wrote: |
- Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
- A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
- The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
- A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
- A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
|
So, except for the first meaning, all other meanings of the word need not have anything to do with God.
Religion (as defined by the second last point) could be a good thing, if it provides people (who, to me, seem very afraid/lazy to think for themselves, and generally prefer to accept the beliefs of someone else, which either have majority acceptance or are simply well-presented...) with a purpose, with a reason to be "good". But what I don't like is when religion imposes too much on your own personal thought process... or when people take their religious beliefs to fanatical proportions... do you agree? | tidruG wrote: |
| Dictionary Meanings of "Religion" wrote: | - Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
- A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
- The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
- A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
- A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
|
So, except for the first meaning, all other meanings of the word need not have anything to do with God.
Religion (as defined by the second last point) could be a good thing, if it provides people (who, to me, seem very afraid/lazy to think for themselves, and generally prefer to accept the beliefs of someone else, which either have majority acceptance or are simply well-presented...) with a purpose, with a reason to be "good". But what I don't like is when religion imposes too much on your own personal thought process... or when people take their religious beliefs to fanatical proportions... do you agree? |
This definition defines the deep inner belief that the soul is searching for.
There's times when I'm sick to the bone of searching for lost causes, blind faith, illogical contradictions between the gospels and psychology or humanity, motivating myself to keep up my faith which as a Catholic is very nieve and indifferent to self-worth and self-esteem, trying to prove that there's a God out there when there's sooooo much doubt it'll make you think eventually that maybe it is just a lost cause, maybe the element of faith is just self-convinced imagination and false aspiration.
Maybe there is no God, maybe there is.
Religion just teaches us how to understand that cause that was lost but now is found, teaches us the true meaning of life. Religion gives us purpose, gives us aspiration by giving us direction to the inner truths we are all seeking for. Buddhists find their karma in following these truths to perfection by self-awareness. Monotheists and Polytheists like myself seek answers from a God(s) for moral guidance and spiritual guidance.
If you find this rediculous, stupid or nonsense bull****, then I've lost my voice to the wind and to the four stone walls around me.
most of the saints and scholars found themselves in doubt at some point in their life; St John of the Cross's Darkness, Newton's madness at the end of his life. And the strange thing nowadays is that psychology can almost to a T describe God's positive spiritual renewal by possitivism and satan's temptations by the negative unconciousness which eats all of us up all the time. Many of the deeply religious attribute the wonders of the world to God, but the only one truly deserving to be enacted by God is Intelligent Design, all else has different alternative theories out there to describe natural causes.
miracles are interesting. God seems to be the cause of these miracles, and I remember one priest saying how a man with Hutchkinsons's Disease was cured in Lourdes in the 1950's, and was officially declared a true miracle, but then he died in a tragic tractor accident unpublicised in a similar instantenous fashion as his healing. It makes you think what miracles are all about. the priest says that miracles are intended on the spiritual renewal of others, which contradicts the gospels where Jesus heals the sicks, often telling them to keep a low profile about it. In fact, mirracles could be described by science of the future. visons and near death experiences are beginning to be explained by psychological stimulation of the specialised cortex regions under special conditions. It was interesting that milk maids in the 1700's were miraculously preserved from illnesses like smallpox while the world was plagued in the smallpox pandemic. This was described by immunology, since milk-maids were immune to smallpox after handling cow's milk so much. Science of the future can explain most of these miracles. But some miracles are outstanding, like the water into wine, or the five loaves and three fishes miracles. the disappearance of major disease's instantaneously is truly remarkeable. Hoaxes, conspiracy theories alike have the opportunity to decline any evidence of these miracles, but there is nearly always a strong evidence value and scientific inability to explain these miracles.
i spent years of searching for the truth from stephen Hawking's singularity of the space-time cosmos to the evolution/creation debate, from scientific research into miracles; understanding the true dogma of the Catholic Church, the Cathecism and reading nearly the whole bible from start to finish with interpretation and correlation. i've been a disciple of the Sacred heart and his law, the two general love commandments and his attitude of righteousness and spiritual awareness.
But yet still I am not convinced 100% of the truth, the doubt overwhelms me, I don't hate god but out of respect and in search of the truth I hold an open attitude and wait.... I wait for something to happen which probably will never happen, just keep on going through the walk of life at my own pace taking opportunities that come and meeting people that cross my path. Destiny brings me here to tell you this, but destiny can be explained by natural causes or supernatural causes. St Thomas Aquinas tells us that for every cause there is an effect.
But there must be a first cause.
This is such an overwhelming arguement that i'm not expecting anybody to answer this doubt here or challenge this post philosophically, if anyone can reason with all these statements provide me with answers except i don't want any "You'll just have to accept there's no god" or "you'll just have to accept God as He is", coz that would mean our our gift of intelligence and free will is futile and serves no purpose in life.I've nothing against God, its religion that I'm all against - any religion. I know, it might seem like I'm here defending what is apparently my faith but actually I'm not even a believer.
| KHO wrote: |
l left for awhile, because l was tired of seeing all these anti-Christian threads, and evolutionists ranting on about their relegion .
l now return about a month later, to see the same damn thing, what the hell?! Do you people seriously just hate the fact that there is no concievable way that you could exist if you were not created first? Or are you nihilistic bastards just afraid to admit the truth that there is a God, and HE did create you, the earth, all things living and dead, the universe, whatever?
l am glad to see that some people have still been defending the Christians, but for the rest of you that would ignoranly deny the existance of anything without any real research, How dare you! The majority of the evolutionists consider themselves to be educated men (or women), but if you were really educated, you would be able to open your minds to the possibilities! Fifty years ago, who would have thought that we could accomplish the things we can do now? Surely you can't think that your first ASSUMPPTION is going to be accurate, or even anywhere near the truth!!
Those of you slandering Christians because we seek to humble ourselves before God, or because we have faith in God, a force which no one can see, you would claim that we are ignorant or un-educated? You would rather put your faith in bacteria and a random explosion of gases?! What sense does this make?
And evolution, it is understandable that if you drop a monkey in a new environment, then it will adapt, does this mean that it will shed all its fur over a long time perion, straighten its back and learn to speak in a civilized manner? NO!! If an eel where to get stuck on land, would it grow legs and lungs to survive? NO!! Evolution has NO factual information!! Why would those who claim to be educated believe in this crap?! |
I am protistant christan, and I don't get why people worship satan or anything else.. EVERYONE SHOULD BELIEVE IN GOD! THERE's ENOUGH ROOM IN HEAVEN FOR EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES IN, AND WORSHIPS GOD! CHRIST! JESUS!I just wanted to say thankyou, particularly to tidrug and lennon for their attempts at cutting through all the mudslinging... I really appreciate your posts in this thread.
| Saphho wrote: |
| Sometimes when i look around me and all whats happening i have this feeling that even if there was a god the Christians would be the last ones that would end up in heaven. All they do is wave their hands and shout their beliefs, only judge and its them who throw the stones first, but thats all, they rarely even behave like they say we others should do. They are just parody of themselves. Of course there are Christians that arent so full of themselves, that dont need to shove their believes down our throats, i wish all of em would be like that but the truth is not like that. Sad |
That hits close to home. I'm a Christian, and am truly saddened at what that word has become. In my own community I see people that I love calling themselves Christians and acting like jerks everyday; ANd what I've seen in these forums lately makes it awfully hard to to use the same word to describe myselfl. I'm certain that, in the end, in heaven, there will be a lot of surprises as to who goes where.
A Christian is simply a follower of Christ. (I think it's fitting that the term was originally invented by the Romans in Christ's lifetime, to mock His followers. Now, people who don't seem to know Him at all wear the title like a badge of honour, to try to put themselves above others...)
I just think it's time that Christians started listening to what Sappho is saying. Christ came to demonstrate grace and forgiveness and love. And to follow Him means to do the same.
No-one who spends their life shouting that people are going to burn in hell... no-one who is consumed with anger, bitterness, hatred... no-one who is wrapped up in a position of anti-abortion, -homosexuality, -science, -evolution, or whatever... no-one who is more concerned about being right than about the heart and soul and person they're meeting with... no-one like that could possibly know the same CHrist that I know.
I am not the shining example of love and grace. I fail. Often. But I don't think my job as a Christian is to force the world to share my ideas, or to stop sinning, or to agree with me.
I think my job as a Christian is to become an example of love an grace. TO become loving and graceful. And if you see evidence of that, and want to know more, and ask... I'll tell you.
My God is big enough to reveal the truth without me cramming down the throats of people who aren't interested. (And what makes me think I understand it well enough to represent it correctly?)
It is truly heartbreaking to me that my fellow believers refuse to see that. It only demonstrates their own lack of faith. Sometimes believers lack faith too.
I think people hate God because we have presented a hateable God.[i] I think that nobody should try to force other people to believe in something they don't feel.
Same way, people who don't believe should not think that they are the only one that have opened their eyes and that religious people are fools.
My personal opinion is that there is no God, that religion is just something people need to get rid of the fear of death.
I am young, so I think I don't need a God... maybe when I'll be old I will start believing again... doesn't this sound weird?
Last edited by skaccomatto on Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
| tidruG wrote: |
| Arnie wrote: | | The problem is that your posts here are as "ranty" as mine, Tigdrug. Except even longer. |
Rant = post made out of an angry disposition (or at least one that appears to be). I assure you, I'm generally very calm and composed while making my posts... even if it means I have to wait 5 minutes to calm down, and then start writing... However, we'll leave this as a difference of opinion. But to give you credit, my first post in this thread was a bit of a rant, mostly out of frustration... never mind.
By the way, the length of a post doesn't determine if it's a rant. For example...
"I **** hate ____. He's so stupid! He's like a daft moron walking the streets with his brains in his knees! What a daft, talentless *******"
(that's a very short post, but an example of a rant)
(PS: You can fill in the blank with anyone in mind... I was focussing on no one in particular while writing it though...) |
I knew you were going to say something like that, tidruG. That's why I added to my post: | Quote: |
| Anyway, it's not that aspect I'm annoyed of. It's the hypocritical aspect. The focus is on the Christians and not on the anti-Christians who are being a lot worse. |
And I also knew you weren't going to reply to that. What is considered 'ranty' is also a matter of personal taste anyway. | Lennon wrote: |
But there must be a first cause.
This is such an overwhelming arguement that i'm not expecting anybody to answer this doubt here or challenge this post philosophically, if anyone can reason with all these statements provide me with answers except i don't want any "You'll just have to accept there's no god" or "you'll just have to accept God as He is", coz that would mean our our gift of intelligence and free will is futile and serves no purpose in life. |
And what's God's first cause? I agree that there should be a first cause but it seems to me that "the universe is eternal" is as good an explanation as "god is eternal".One of the arguements for and against this is the singularity of the space-time cosmos. Since we cannot define t=0 (as I've stressed by now), no universe can exist at the t=0. Quantum Mechanics cannot theorise up that far, yet alone calculate past singularity into a reverse big crunch.
So is the universe a big bang, big crunch, big bang, big crunch cycle. Singularity and the lack of the total unified theory denies any valid theories to prove this. There are other problems like entropy, 2nd law in thermodynamics which forbids the big bang-big crunch theory coz the universe will never achieve entropy. Hence, the universe should not be eternal.
The second theory is that the universe is expanding from singularity which it started from a single point with no initial cause, this it seems is another possibility but it denies the mass conservation rule (you can't have something created from nothing) by scientific theories.
Another possibility is the Stephen Hawking theory of multiple singularities, which under the quantum foam theory has multiple origins - crazy and I think Stephen Hawking recently admitting faking some of the data.
So we don't know scientifically speaking. Note the similarity of the 2nd theory to Genesis. This is the one I like to believe coz I'm a christian.
| Lennon wrote: |
| The second theory is that the universe is expanding from singularity which it started from a single point with no initial cause, this it seems is another possibility but it denies the mass conservation rule (you can't have something created from nothing) by scientific theories. |
Why wouldn't it be possible for the mass/energy to come from somewhere else? Why wouldn't it be possible that something out of our 3 dimensions caused our universe to be created? And mass/energy conservation might not even be a characteristic of that something.
And isn't the second law of thermodynamics a probabilistic law? Hence not valid in extreme conditions?
| Quote: |
| A common misconception is that the second law means that entropy never ever decreases - but the second law is only a tendency, hence, it only means that it is highly unlikely that entropy will decrease in a closed system at any given instant. |
From wikipedia | Bondings wrote: |
| Lennon wrote: | | The second theory is that the universe is expanding from singularity which it started from a single point with no initial cause, this it seems is another possibility but it denies the mass conservation rule (you can't have something created from nothing) by scientific theories. |
Why wouldn't it be possible for the mass/energy to come from somewhere else? Why wouldn't it be possible that something out of our 3 dimensions caused our universe to be created? And mass/energy conservation might not even be a characteristic of that something.. |
We consider the universe to contain everything involving mass, energy and space. Approaching t=0 everything is included in the universe and is contained in a much much smaller space at higher energy intensity, too intense for solid matter to exist, only ultra-white-hot radiation. Any other mass-energy source would be parrallel universes which contradicts the definition of universe. Looking back at singularity the universe appears to collapse on itself into non-existence, looking forward the universe seems to unravel from a point of infinitely non-existent singularity and unfolds by expanding and cooling. If the mass-energy conservation was broken we would have mass-energy appearing out of nowhere or disappearing into non-existence, which scientifically is illogical and unnatural. The only explanation for this loophole is if energy-mass came into the universe from outside the universe. But by scientific definition, nothing can exist outside the universe.
There may be a scientific phenomenon which existed immediately after expansion that has yet to be discovered by quantum gravity that could explain how singularity is avoided, such as Stephen Hawking's theory and quantum foam/wormholes.
| Bondings wrote: |
And isn't the second law of thermodynamics a probabilistic law? Hence not valid in extreme conditions?
| Quote: | | A common misconception is that the second law means that entropy never ever decreases - but the second law is only a tendency, hence, it only means that it is highly unlikely that entropy will decrease in a closed system at any given instant. |
From wikipedia |
Not just probabilistic. From a quantum physics point of view, yes, it's true, probability holds in, but that's just at the quantum level. On a larger molecular, chemical and biological scale, probability becomes 1, random occurances are diminished to non-observeable. For example electron probabilities are random in the atom, but on a molecular scale the electrons follow a pattern, where the probabilities become less random. On a biological scale the effect of random oscillations of the electron become negligable, with chemical and biological reactions governed not by probability but by laws. The laws of thermodynamics are not seen as random in the universe scale, statistically considering so many systems at once, and the universe will as an average seek to balance itself out by expanding, cooling etc. This is entropy, a tendency for balance. Hence, chemical reactions are not probabilistic but are often irreversible due to entropy. An example of entropy is time. Time is irreversible, forward direction only. This is due to entropy, with space-time expanding constantly. To reverse time requires wormholes with so much gravitational energy that it would destroy the universe, equivalent to millions of black holes in strength. The universe expands at the speed of light, which in pure space is always constant and irreversible. No way gravity will be strong enough to slow this light down and slow the expansion down, and a big crunch or cyclic universe is forbidden.To stick to some ideas, belief, whether it is about Religion, Science, Sport, Nationalism, is why you have a disagreement. What is the point of then claiming any one side of the argument is right or wrong? That's just more disagreement.
I dont hate religion personally, just have big problems understanding it.
Im not the sort of person to flame religion, but im not a religious person nevertheless.
This is not an arguement.
This is simply the scientific case scenarios that have been proposed to explain the origin of the universe. I could bias it by comparing to Genesis or by comparing to evolution but as I stand now, I'll hold an open mind with no bias, and just wait... wait for a good explanation for everything.
Wow ... what a discussion ...
So interesting comments and some fumming ones.
I am a Christian
I don't love religion BUT
I love God
Anyway thought I will start a seperate discussion on Why do you love God? So those who have something to share there can. 
Cheers,
Empower I bealive God exist. But I bealive religion is not necessery. I have many iniciations (blessings) in different religions christianiti, buddism, hinduism, etc. but all of this iniciations is help to me to realise Truth. I cannot to tell what is Truth because I didnt got it jet but in one way this is love for all beengs, love like have Christ or Moter Teresa, Buddha or Dalai Lama, Krishna or Sai Baba, and many other realised peoples. This love is energy in our body it is not different from us, somewhere in haven. Everyone have this love whats mean everyone have God, because everyone love someone or something.
Sonam
Sorry for poor English
| Arnie wrote: |
| Quote: | | Anyway, it's not that aspect I'm annoyed of. It's the hypocritical aspect. The focus is on the Christians and not on the anti-Christians who are being a lot worse. |
And I also knew you weren't going to reply to that. What is considered 'ranty' is also a matter of personal taste anyway. |
To be honest, the reason I didn't reply to that is because I assumed that to be your opinion, and treated it as one. I don't like attacking opinions, because everyone is entitled to one. Also, I didn't quite comprehend which ones you were referring to as being a lot worse...
I mean... if it was written without comma, it probably means "...the anti-Christians who are being a lot worse", implying that the anti-Christians are a lot worse,
or
"...the Christians, and not on the anti-Christians, who are being a lot worse" (I put the commas in red because oftentimes, I've noticed people leaving out punctuation marks, which completely changes the meaning of the sentence, and which, if true in this case, implies that the Christians are a lot worse.
In my personal opinion, I get more irritated (and sometimes, just plain amused) at the "God-or-hell" posts... like the one a few posts before yours
And I apologize... I think I'm dragging this for too long. I don't like and generally avoid getting personal and picky about others' posts.
| Lennon wrote: |
| The second theory is that the universe is expanding from singularity which it started from a single point with no initial cause, this it seems is another possibility but it denies the mass conservation rule (you can't have something created from nothing) by scientific theories. |
Like you said, it would not make sense to define a time t=0 or to try and define conditions and define laws for these conditions at a time t=0-, if we consider the "Big Bang" happened at t=0. Perhaps there are different rules that applied to time, and the M conservation or the M-E rule at t=0-.
| Bondings wrote: |
| Why wouldn't it be possible for the mass/energy to come from somewhere else? Why wouldn't it be possible that something out of our 3 dimensions caused our universe to be created? And mass/energy conservation might not even be a characteristic of that something. |
What I was trying to say.the M-E conservation is a logical arguement that's fundamental to science in reasoning with theories. It's when numbers are supposed to match up, when one side of the equation balances the other. To say that something would just appear without a cause is irrational.
how can you hate god and think he doesn't exist at the same time.
How can you love God and yet he has no physical presence.
A God cannot be reasoned with, a mystery only answered for the dead assuming life after death. If there is no life after death then the dead cannot think or see or feel because they are dead and gone with no destiny. we can't say that we will know when we die, because when we die there's a 50/50 in the afterlife/nothing. If there's nothing it's too late to think about it, you're finished. If there's something and you wait till you die, it's still too late to think about it - you'll be judged.
Metaphysics indicates a 50/50. Your odds, how will you play them. You can read everyone else's opinion, but you'll never know. 4 billion believers in an afterlife at least, that's the crowd on one side.
| Rookiejas wrote: |
ok ppl generally don't trust god because of the church! i mean the are stingy bums! I mean look at the medievil ages when the church sold pieces of paper to get rid of sin i mean BFS. and take Mormonism they take like a 1/4 of your yearly pay(i think) anyway thats why ppl don't like God or religion!
My feelings are wat i just said and also who knows if the bible is true it could be some story some person wrote when they got bored!
sorry if i hurt your feelings. |
No hurt feelings here... but you may want to research a bit more on '1/4 of your yearly pay' thing - that's inaccurate. And it's certainly not because the LDS Church are stingy bums... | Quote: |
| how can you hate god and think he doesn't exist at the same time. |
A good observation.
| Quote: |
| How can you love God and yet he has no physical presence. |
Someone doesn't need a physical presence for you to love them. For example, if a family member is on a trip you still love them! Because you KNOW there out there, even if you cannot see them.
God does exist. How else did the earth come to be?! Certainly not some retarded theory like the big bang! To many things fit to perfectly for that to happen. I have trouble understanding why so many scientists are not Christians. The more I study Gods creation the more I am amazed by his power and perfection.
There ARE many religions out there. I'm not trying to persuade you to become a Christian, only you can do that, I'm simply giving to truthful information. Put the pieces of the puzzle together! NO ONE HAS EVER BEEN ABLE TO PROVE CHRISTIONITY WRONG! There is so much scientific evidence that there is a god out there. Other religions there is NO proof that has stood for thousands of years. The bible has been around a long time, and it has NEVER been proven wrong. That alone is enough evidence to back up Christianity.I am a Christian scientist myself, just that science and the origin of the universe and astrology, physics and geology and biology all suggest evolution, and if religion thinks it's all crap then they're biased. The Catholic Church has accepted evolution as a possible work of God by intelligent Design, no matter what happens God always has a role.
But like I said, you'll never really know. Just blind faith in God and the afterlife until you die.
I myself am an Athiest and always love to see when someone tries to slander a belief and fails miserably
| KHO wrote: |
| And evolution, it is understandable that if you drop a monkey in a new environment, then it will adapt, does this mean that it will shed all its fur over a long time perion, straighten its back and learn to speak in a civilized manner? |
The Theory of Evolution does NOT state that humans evolved from monkeys, rather that humans and monkeys have a common ancestor.
Why did human's lose all the hair and 'learn to speak in a civilized manner'? Because it is believed that the Human Species originates from the great rift valley in Africa, which used to be a lake with an island or something in the middle, and found themselves in the plains of africa. Being out of the jungle, our ancestors developed wider hips for upright walking, instead of the narrower and longer ones found in our monkey cousins (which is why they can only walk upright for very short distances). We lost our fur, hair whatever you want to call it because we were now sleeping on the ground instead of in trees, and hair is a paradise for tics, fleas and bugs; which is also the reason we developed earwax.
And secondly, assuming for a moment that monkies are our ancestors, dropping one monkey in a new environment wouldn't do diddly squat. Evolution is a process that takes thousands of years, and seeing as monkeys are not asexual, you would need many monkies.
So if you want to slander a belief, such as evolution, at least get your facts right. | Quote: |
| The bible has been around a long time, and it has NEVER been proven wrong. |
The bible completely contradicts evelution. And as I said before the Bible has never been proven wrong.
| Quote: |
| But like I said, you'll never really know. Just blind faith in God and the afterlife until you die. |
Faith -
Definition1: belief
Definition2: trust
Blind Faith -
Definition: belief without true understanding, perception, or discrimination@ Disco_Dance_monkey - Man... Evolution is just a bunch of theories. There is NO hard rock evidence that that’s what really happened! Why can you not just accept that there is a god? Probably because either you have BLIND FAITH, or because your too proud of your/mans creations to give any credit to god.
There is no such thing as blind faith - you either have faith and trust in God, or you don't.
Many people just choose to believe (yes, it's a belief) in evolution simply because many scientists say thats what happens, and they've bent the truth to make it fit, and to make it seem plausible.
The theory that everything randomly fell together to create the entire universe is no less absurd than someone creating it.
Wrong,
You cannot take the bible literally in genesis (according to scholars) unless you stick to your faith that nothing is impossible to God.
Blind faith is unreasoned faith, unsure of it's understanding. There's always an element of doubt. You can't be sure that God created the universe. Only faith in what religion teaches can make you feel so sure. You really have to have an open mind to see both sides of the story with no bias. You have to allow yourself to consider how there mightn't be a God, maybe it's a voice in your head, maybe it's the Holy spirit, maybe it's a miracle.
Then there is reasoned faith. I've never seen the south pole, but after so much facts out there I have to accept that it exists, I believe it's there. All theories to be accepted need to be believed.
Genesis story one lines up nicely with evolution:
In order of evolution.
In the beginning there was nothing (at time = ze