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Why do you all hate God?





KHO
l left for awhile, because l was tired of seeing all these anti-Christian threads, and evolutionists ranting on about their relegion Neutral.

l now return about a month later, to see the same damn thing, what the hell?! Neutral Do you people seriously just hate the fact that there is no concievable way that you could exist if you were not created first? Or are you nihilistic bastards just afraid to admit the truth that there is a God, and HE did create you, the earth, all things living and dead, the universe, whatever? Neutral

l am glad to see that some people have still been defending the Christians, but for the rest of you that would ignoranly deny the existance of anything without any real research, How dare you! Neutral The majority of the evolutionists consider themselves to be educated men (or women), but if you were really educated, you would be able to open your minds to the possibilities! Fifty years ago, who would have thought that we could accomplish the things we can do now? Surely you can't think that your first ASSUMPPTION is going to be accurate, or even anywhere near the truth!! Neutral

Those of you slandering Christians because we seek to humble ourselves before God, or because we have faith in God, a force which no one can see, you would claim that we are ignorant or un-educated? You would rather put your faith in bacteria and a random explosion of gases?! What sense does this make? Neutral

And evolution, it is understandable that if you drop a monkey in a new environment, then it will adapt, does this mean that it will shed all its fur over a long time perion, straighten its back and learn to speak in a civilized manner? NO!! If an eel where to get stuck on land, would it grow legs and lungs to survive? NO!! Evolution has NO factual information!! Why would those who claim to be educated believe in this crap?!
Lied
Yes! Am a scientific bastard and since there is not an exeriment proving that there is a god, i belive that i will only be eaten by worms when i die.Also and if there is a god I DO NOT CARE! Does he cares about the thousand dead children every day?And what is that egoistic "Belive in me!".

On the other hand there are facts on how we evolve from the sea and that no god felt like pottering and made us!
tidruG
Amusingly enough, first you say you left the forum for a month because of all the "anti-Christian" threads, and their constant anti-God rants... then you procede on a rant yourself, using foul language and proceeding to press your beliefs on everyone else on the forum... perhaps if you read some of the threads, you'd notice that most of the anti-God people are not really as much anti-God as you think they are... they are just sick of having members from each religion trying to say that their God is the best and most powerful and we should all believe Him or go to hell... well, personally, I am sick of that.

About anti-Christian threads? You are basing this on what? On one thread that asks "Are Christians educated?" Have you looked through the Discuss World News forum? There is a new anti-Muslim thread started almost every 3-4 days. Even in most of the threads in the General Chat forum, loads of replies are anti-Islam. As far as agnostics and atheists are concerned, they'll write about God(s) in general, and generally don't refer to the "God" of one religion. Christians in this forum are not as badly targetted as Muslims are.

Quote:
Surely you can't think that your first ASSUMPPTION is going to be accurate, or even anywhere near the truth!!

So why do you assume that what you believe in is accurate? There is no proof for Genesis either. It's just a question of belief. If you consider evolutionists to be stupid, I consider it even more stupid to consider someone else stupid because they don't have 100% proof, when you yourself don't have proof... just theories.

Quote:
Those of you slandering Christians because we seek to humble ourselves before God,

Probably the most amusing part of your post. "Humbling" yourselves eh? Have you seen some of the pro-Christian posts in this forum? They are anything but humble, constantly shouting that all other beliefs are evil... all who don't conform are wrong... all who don't conform are ignorant... all who don't conform are stupid... etc etc etc... let me take a few lines from your own post for example:
Quote:
Or are you nihilistic bastards...

Quote:
ignoranly deny

Quote:
How dare you!

Quote:
open your minds to the possibilities!

Quote:
What sense does this make?

Quote:
Why would those who claim to be educated believe in this crap?!


Like I said before, whether you decide to believe in evolution or Genesis is a question of your personal choice and faith. I believe in God, but I believe in evolution too.

Quote:
does this mean that it will shed all its fur over a long time perion, straighten its back and learn to speak in a civilized manner? NO!!
And why the hell not? Because you don't believe in it?
By the way, evolution like this would take thousands of years, so you wouldn't be able to tell now would you?
Quote:
If an eel where to get stuck on land, would it grow legs and lungs to survive? NO!!

If you pick an eel, and put in on land, it would die... but over a long period of time, if eels had to adapt to changing conditions... scarcity of water, for example, then they'd probably grow at least some kind of limbs to enable locomotion (if they decide to need to locomote, that is)
Devil
Why u say we all hate god ? Laughing i love my god

AMEN Rolling Eyes
Rookiejas
ok ppl generally don't trust god because of the church! i mean the are stingy bums! I mean look at the medievil ages when the church sold pieces of paper to get rid of sin i mean BFS. and take Mormonism they take like a 1/4 of your yearly pay(i think) anyway thats why ppl don't like God or religion!

My feelings are wat i just said and also who knows if the bible is true it could be some story some person wrote when they got bored!

sorry if i hurt your feelings.
Jayfarer
I don't hate God.

But then I see posts like this, and I feel tempted to.
nam_siddharth
deleted
the_mariska
KHO wrote:
And evolution, it is understandable that if you drop a monkey in a new environment, then it will adapt, does this mean that it will shed all its fur over a long time perion, straighten its back and learn to speak in a civilized manner? NO!! If an eel where to get stuck on land, would it grow legs and lungs to survive? NO!! Evolution has NO factual information!! Why would those who claim to be educated believe in this crap?!

Aaargh... I'll repeat the same for the last time: The theory of evolution is NOT against Bible, because what matters in Bible is only the spiritual part of reality. Genesis does NOT describe how the world began, but and who created it and why. And the theory of evolution has simply much more evidence than creationism.
Quote:
I don't hate God.

But then I see posts like this, and I feel tempted to.


And here's the answer why there're so many anti-Christian threads, it's because of the fanatics who try to persuade the people by force or 'obvious evidences' that they are wrong, insulting them all the time. KHO, writing in this style you may offend not only the atheists (what is actually their own personal choice and you have no business in it) but also Christians like me who don't want to be considered as a mad fanatic. Sorry, but in my opinion Christians should give only a good example to the others, not shout at them.

Full respect for tidruG. Very Happy

Quote:
Yes! Am a scientific bastard and since there is not an exeriment proving that there is a god, i belive that i will only be eaten by worms when i die.Also and if there is a god I DO NOT CARE! Does he cares about the thousand dead children every day?And what is that egoistic "Belive in me!".

Well, I actually think I could explain this to you, but I guess you don't wanna know the answer, you just express yourself Wink. But if you'd like to talk about it, just simply tell me ;]
Animal
KHO wrote:
... HE did create you, the earth, all things living and dead, the universe, whatever? Neutral


You are entitled to your opinion, just as everyone else is entitled to their own. There are very few people who use the forum who say "I'm right, you're all wrong. Believe in the God that I believe in or else..."

You're one of those people, unfortunately.
Travelmom
I dislike governing systems based on religions, it's middleage mentality in my eyes.
bigdan
Religion just confuses me... Shocked Confused

I know someone is up there....I just don't know who...
the_mariska
Travelmom wrote:
I dislike governing systems based on religions, it's middleage mentality in my eyes.

But Christians gave it up in medieval times, only some of the muslim countries have something like this Wink
devroom
KHO wrote:
l left for awhile, because l was tired of seeing all these anti-Christian threads, and evolutionists ranting on about their relegion Neutral.

l now return about a month later, to see the same damn thing, what the hell?! Neutral Do you people seriously just hate the fact that there is no concievable way that you could exist if you were not created first? Or are you nihilistic bastards just afraid to admit the truth that there is a God, and HE did create you, the earth, all things living and dead, the universe, whatever? Neutral

l am glad to see that some people have still been defending the Christians, but for the rest of you that would ignoranly deny the existance of anything without any real research, How dare you! Neutral The majority of the evolutionists consider themselves to be educated men (or women), but if you were really educated, you would be able to open your minds to the possibilities! Fifty years ago, who would have thought that we could accomplish the things we can do now? Surely you can't think that your first ASSUMPPTION is going to be accurate, or even anywhere near the truth!! Neutral

Those of you slandering Christians because we seek to humble ourselves before God, or because we have faith in God, a force which no one can see, you would claim that we are ignorant or un-educated? You would rather put your faith in bacteria and a random explosion of gases?! What sense does this make? Neutral

And evolution, it is understandable that if you drop a monkey in a new environment, then it will adapt, does this mean that it will shed all its fur over a long time perion, straighten its back and learn to speak in a civilized manner? NO!! If an eel where to get stuck on land, would it grow legs and lungs to survive? NO!! Evolution has NO factual information!! Why would those who claim to be educated believe in this crap?!


Wow Shocked Lot of text.
Why all this? Never noticed any 'get god down' texts around here. And it is allowed to give (nearly) any your opinion i believe.
drunkfun
i don't hate god simply because of the reason that:


GOD DOES NOT EXIST. IN ANY FORM.

We are what we fu ck ing are!

We're not in the middle ages anymore when life was so crap that people needed religion, we're not in the time where unexplained phenomena couldn't be explained scientifically so people thought it was religion.


The sooner the world comes to grips with this and uses the wasted energy that they've used on religion and put it to better use like poverty, the environment and beer drinking, the better off we'll all be.
God there are some stupid people here
Arnie
I'm neutral concerning this (I couldn't care less how people think themselves to be so great by putting down somebody else's opinion, whether that be Christian or anti-Christian), but I notice some strange things on the forums.
Animal wrote:
You are entitled to your opinion, just as everyone else is entitled to their own. There are very few people who use the forum who say "I'm right, you're all wrong. Believe in the God that I believe in or else..."
Most of the people with that attitude seem to be believers in science (this is a reference to my posts in the science vs religion topic) that say "Christians are all wrong". The idea that Christians would be forcing their opinion on others seems a big prejudice to me. Everywhere here I hear people shouting that the believers should shut up, a lot more than I actually hear those believers. So obviously I'm rather annoyed by those people that keep bashing Christianity: it's not scientifical, it's medieval, it's this, it's that. If you don't believe in science you're an irrational fool! Well, I'd like to make my own choice on that huh!? I'm more annoyed by the anti-Christians forcing their opinion than the Christians.

I mean, come on. For example Skullpizza sees himself as an anti-Christian missionary. Literally, he's preaching. And nobody cares? I just want people like that to shut up and keep their nonsense to themselves. And otherwise don't be so biased to accuse others of preaching. They're making a lot more "repent!" calls than the Christians.

To say this less polite: you are a bunch of stupid hypocrites. I'm not interested in the Christians on the forums, and I hardly notice them anyway. But the anti-religious people keep shouting their opinion and nobody has a problem with that. Just shut up. I don't care about your nonsense. I'm not interested how you're anti-God, anti-Jesus, anti-Bush, nor in how you are so gifted with sarcasm to defend your noble purpose, or for that matter how you follow Crowley's law, how your nickname is derived from mystical nonsense, etcetera. Thanks.
Srs2388
well, I dont hate God... but if thats what some of these others believe then let them believe that, if your a true Christian you woudn't be ranting on them about things and cussing.... you would be make a post telling them what you believe and what you think instead of saying it the way you did...
and im sure these people dont hate God they just dont believe in a God it would be better if more people did believe in God but if you want anyone to be convinced you should use a better method and say something more like this...
"Hello everyone... today I would like to say something you dont have to agree but I really wish that I can change someones viewpoint..."
and then tell them about God and the Rapture etc.etc. but bashing everyones believes will not get you anywhere
I myself would like to see more relegious people here
silvermesh
God and i went out drinking one night and he stiffed me with the $100 tab! He was the one getting all of those expensive mixxed drinks!
i've hated him ever since.
silvermesh
I just want to make a comment about something touched on here.

The seperation of Church and State wasn't written about keeping religion out of government. It's about not allowing government to have any say or control in religion. The reason the early Christian church moved away from government is because the government tried to change the rules of christianity. For the same reason, the founding fathers came over to the americas to escape religious persecution. they founded a government that was supposed to have literally no say in religious matters.

it's not about "no saying god in government run places" it's the opposite. no president excommunicating people of his religion from his church for worshipping a different way.
althalus
drunkfun wrote:
i don't hate god simply because of the reason that:

GOD DOES NOT EXIST. IN ANY FORM.

We are what we fu ck ing are!

We're not in the middle ages anymore when life was so crap that people needed religion, we're not in the time where unexplained phenomena couldn't be explained scientifically so people thought it was religion.


The sooner the world comes to grips with this and uses the wasted energy that they've used on religion and put it to better use like poverty, the environment and beer drinking, the better off we'll all be.
God there are some stupid people here
Amen brother. Wink

I've never been religious in any way, nor has my family, so I guess that's why. I'm an atheist, so I don't think there's anyone or anything out there "looking out for us" (unless you count them aliens).. I respect people's decissions concerning religion for the most part.. Unless they throw it in my face, trying to convince me their way of thinking is the only right way and I'm on the path to hell for having my own ideas..

Further, for no reason, here's a snippet from the song The Fight Song by M.Manson:
Quote:
But I'm not a slave to a god
that doesn't exist
But I'm not a slave to a world
that doesn't give a s**t
H2sniper
Well, i dont hate god.
We really don't know if he exists or if he's a figment of our imagination to tell you the truth.
But if you believe, than anything is possible.
Shake
This needs to be locked. I don't believe topics like this need to exist on this forum. My god is my moderator. Close this topic. It's pointless. No. I'm not athiest. I just don't care, and I don't want to lie about something I have no proof of. That's why I'm not a preacher. And this argumentative crowd is why this topic needs to be locked.
Sappho
I dont hate god since i dont believe in him how can i hate him? All i hate is all these "you will go to hell" "believe or burn" ... bible hugging religious fantatics like u (believe me i had enough since like 80% population of my country are christians or atleast they say so). Am i the one going out and judge em or even try to convince em that not believing in god is better and they should be atheists? No. I dont care i want my beliefs and i dont care about urs, as far as i am concerned u can believe in the all mighty holy can of coca cola.

"Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others to live as one wishes to live." -- Oscar Wilde
IceCameron
I dont hate him, I just dont belive in him.
Im suprised how anyone can belive that there is some flying ghost who created us all.
Its just... absurd. Completely insane!
IceCameron
I was talking to this priest at a local church who i hadn't met for years.
It was just after the tsunami.
He was extremely happy, i asked him why.
His answer shook me.
He said,
You know about the tsunami? Its so great! I have never seen such a miracle in my time!
I was so shocked i just gaped at him.
Then he continued.
God is so great! Think of all the country's that have been brought together by this! Everybody helping each other.


Some might think he's just an positive-extremist?
I think its just gross!
Valleyman
I am an atheist, a heretical non-believer. To answer the question posed by the topic: I hate god because he's a massive sadist and an egomaniac. Or I would, if he existed. How can I say this, you ask? Because I have endured nine years of Sunday School and have read a not insignificant amount of the bible and still go to church (the youth group is awesome).

As to how I can believe in evolution: because it makes so much more sense than creationism or any other theories that I've heard about. It works of the fewest presuppositions (ideas that can't be proved) and makes the most sense.

KHO wrote:
l am glad to see that some people have still been defending the Christians, but for the rest of you that would ignoranly deny the existance of anything without any real research, How dare you! Neutral The majority of the evolutionists consider themselves to be educated men (or women), but if you were really educated, you would be able to open your minds to the possibilities! Fifty years ago, who would have thought that we could accomplish the things we can do now? Surely you can't think that your first ASSUMPPTION is going to be accurate, or even anywhere near the truth!!


You want to speak of assumptions? What about your assumptions? That the bible is the infallible word of God, that God exists, etc. Before you attack other people's assumptions you might want to take a good look at your own.

Finally a good old quote from Bash.org:
<XnD> Personally its not God I dislike, its his fan club I cant stand
Lennon
nam_siddharth wrote:
You Europeans were too stupid to have a good religion, it is why you all accepted a religion fron asia (Jesus Christ was Asian).
Today, you are deciding the future of the world.
Is it not a good example of evolution? Wink


I feel like giving up on talking about God coz it's so demotivating with all the arguements. I find some element of stupidity or ignorance or other unawareness that we can't explain God or religion factually. Since I'm an Irish Catholic I should be very fluent in religion, but yet I can't prove anything by debating or arguing. Especially in this forum where so many people just opinioned and beliefs without facts or statistics. But yet deep down I'm still looking for answers and I will share whatever I find along the way.
Reaper
Why don't i believe in religion? well thats quite simple, most religions have or at one point were corrupt, youl probably say why did so many people support the pope in the mideval ages then?? for one simple reason the church dealt with uneducated people who were to weak minded to see that they were being manipulated, I will give an example of this. A man walks into your school room and asks you all to walk to los angeles and fight all the gangs in north LA, south LA and east LA. In the event that you survive your reward will be to walk back home! would you do this?? hell no you know better then that! Now lets take a look at the midieval version of this, which did actually happen so you cant say it didnt. during the midieval ages the pope started an era known as the crusades, in which the pope or his bishops went to a village and told them all to march to the holy lands and re-claim them in the name of god, keep in mind that most of these people were peasants and had to walk there on foot! and in that era walking to the fallen holy lands took about a year to do. All these peasants and knights gladly stood up and rode to the fallen holy lands to fight these barbarians, even though the barbarians like the gangs of LA had a huge advantage over them. And your probably wondering whats your reward in the event that your one of the 10 people not killed?? you guessed it! you get to walk back home! what a generous man wouldn't you say?
Eventually the pope even went as far as sending children to the fallen holy lands to re-claim them, when all these kids were sold off to slavery and other thing like this, the people started to think for them selfs, Hey pope that was my little boy! my only child! why did you send him to his death??
After this the popes power dropped to a point in which the people could re-take their lands and think for themselfs. So damn strait I have a problem with power hungly religions like this one.
elekis
hi,
reading that post, I couldnt passed without give my judgment .

You mixe two thing, god and religion.

I believe in god, my god. but what is god (for me). Certainly not a guys with a long beard, or a guys who 's contribut to lose unicorn animal and save moise or what ever you want.

My god is more simply, it's just a big bag with all response of all question than I can ask myself. there a lot of question, so there lots of response and so
god will exist all the time (infinit of response). that vision for me has lots of advantage. you can insult him (caricature) or whatever you want. it's not him who unhand answord, it's human who found something...etc...Etc...

BUT I don't believe in religion, Jesus, Mohamet and other thing....
I don't believe that jesus is the son of god I better perfer believe that marie was a easy girl and condom campagne was not the first preoccupation if the gourvernement , and They no choise to say a big lie to josef .
That is on what I believe.


for the human born, we know today that live doesn't from earth(miller experience). and I prefer thing that we are a miss experience from alien than believe that the world was create in 7 days.
If god made human at his picture , god is front of a good football match with a bier in a hand and scratch his balls with the others.


I just remember to you that the first mortality reason to humanity is religion, not AIS, not cancer, not natural cause and certainly not god


a+++
Soulfire
Because these people don't know God, and when they don't know something, they are afraid of it.

Open your hearts.
a.Bird
Soulfire wrote:
Because these people don't know God, and when they don't know something, they are afraid of it.

Open your hearts.


And some people are afraid of the idea that nothing is here for a reason, and when they panic from a lack of identity, they may create imaginary friends. Open your MIND.
SkullPizza
I hate god cause he stole my lunch money.
Soulfire
a.Bird wrote:
Soulfire wrote:
Because these people don't know God, and when they don't know something, they are afraid of it.

Open your hearts.

And some people are afraid of the idea that nothing is here for a reason, and when they panic from a lack of identity, they may create imaginary friends. Open your MIND.

My mind is open, I'm just Christian, and you can't change that. I'm not afraid to display my belief.
a.Bird
Soulfire wrote:
a.Bird wrote:
Soulfire wrote:
Because these people don't know God, and when they don't know something, they are afraid of it.

Open your hearts.

And some people are afraid of the idea that nothing is here for a reason, and when they panic from a lack of identity, they may create imaginary friends. Open your MIND.

My mind is open, I'm just Christian, and you can't change that. I'm not afraid to display my belief.


If your mind was truly open, I would think you wouldn't be so pretentious as to assume that people don't believe in God because they are afraid of him.

I don't believe in Him, and my heart is open to you as a fellow human, but I am not afraid to contest your ideas to see if you can think outside of your own perspective.
Soulfire
It's unfortunate you have no faith, but I am Christian, like I said. That is what I believe, that is what I perceive. Why think different? There's no reason to think any different. There's no reason to listen to you, just as much as you don't have to listen to me.
TonkPilz
i dont hate any god or religion i yust dont belive in any of it and i for one is tierd of ppl trying to force ther belives on me. not that any body here have but im sure thats just a mader of time
olafsson
What is it with you ppl who don´t believe in evolution. What is it with America, where the creation must be in schoolbooks aswell as the evolution "theory".

You are just stuck in the 1850s people! I mean, I study geology and have made courses in paeleontology. If you would just pick up some books or visit some classes.

Ok. Maybe there is a god. I don´t hate him (then I would be saying he exists), how could I hate him. But why is it that the church, through history, are so abusive? There are so many bad things the church and priests have made. How can one still think that god is good (if one believes).

The church stood so long in the way of science, because it didn´t want to loose its influence. If you, as a geologist in the 1800s, had a great revolutionary idea you would have been flocked or something like that.
The focus is not on the person.

Why aren´t catholic preasts allowed to marry? Because when he would die, the assets would go to the wife. We surely don´t want that.


+ It just gets me so round up and angry reading that stuff about the evolution. How stupid can people just be?
a.Bird
Soulfire wrote:
It's unfortunate you have no faith, but I am Christian, like I said. That is what I believe, that is what I perceive. Why think different? There's no reason to think any different. There's no reason to listen to you, just as much as you don't have to listen to me.

You are very wrong my friend. I have every reason to want to listen to you. I am INTREGUED by the way you percieve the existence of God. I'm hoping to share my ideas with you. I'm hoping to get your ideas from you that I may not have thought of before. I'm hoping to expand my cultivated perspective of the world.

I know you are Christian, and I know that you are in control of that Label. But "why think different?" ?! What if you thought differently and realized that what you had previously thought about God was something you no longer believed in. What if you felt MORE spiritually awakened and influenced than you did when you believed in his existence? The way you say "why think different?" lends me to believe that you are actually afraid of losing your faith and seeing the world through a different lens.
Sappho
Sometimes when i look around me and all whats happening i have this feeling that even if there was a god the Christians would be the last ones that would end up in heaven. All they do is wave their hands and shout their beliefs, only judge and its them who throw the stones first, but thats all, they rarely even behave like they say we others should do. They are just parody of themselves. Of course there are Christians that arent so full of themselves, that dont need to shove their believes down our throats, i wish all of em would be like that but the truth is not like that. Sad
Soulfire
Sappho wrote:
Sometimes when i look around me and all whats happening i have this feeling that even if there was a god the Christians would be the last ones that would end up in heaven. All they do is wave their hands and shout their beliefs, only judge and its them who throw the stones first, but thats all, they rarely even behave like they say we others should do. They are just parody of themselves. Of course there are Christians that arent so full of themselves, that dont need to shove their believes down our throats, i wish all of em would be like that but the truth is not like that. Sad

You can't misinterpret things people say. I profess my faith, I am not ashamed to believe, and I want people to know I am Christian, but I don't force it "down people's throats."

Forgive them for wanting to save you.
Jeslyn
Being a "non-believer" seems to be the new trend everywhere. Next, it will be worshipping pants.
Nameless
How can I possibly hate something that doesn't exist? That's like people complaining how much they hate people who hate dragons.

ALso... ARGH! The flame(ing)! It burns!
Soulfire
God exists, my friends. But your judgement comes later. And it's not so much they hate God than they shut it all out.

Maybe they're threatened, they tremble at the thought of someone more powerful than themselves. Maybe they're so used to putting themselves above everyone else that they can't possibly comprehend the thought of someone higher than themselves. Maybe after so long of putting themselves first, they just can't find it to put God first. Ah yes, the deadly sin of Pride.

Notice the "maybe" before all that stuff, before you begin to mindlessly flame me.
a.Bird
Soulfire wrote:
Sappho wrote:
Sometimes when i look around me and all whats happening i have this feeling that even if there was a god the Christians would be the last ones that would end up in heaven. All they do is wave their hands and shout their beliefs, only judge and its them who throw the stones first, but thats all, they rarely even behave like they say we others should do. They are just parody of themselves. Of course there are Christians that arent so full of themselves, that dont need to shove their believes down our throats, i wish all of em would be like that but the truth is not like that. Sad

You can't misinterpret things people say. I profess my faith, I am not ashamed to believe, and I want people to know I am Christian, but I don't force it "down people's throats."

Forgive them for wanting to save you.


I think that is exactly what he means by forcing it down people's throats. The way you pretentiously imply that people who don't believe in God need to be saved is just as frustrating as having a fist shoved down your esophagus. He doesn't care that they want to save him, he knows that's what they're trying to do and that is why he is feeling so deepthroated.
Vrythramax
I can't speak for anyone else at FriHost, but I certainly don't hate God. I may not attend services as much as I should, but that doesn't mean I hate God. I also don't CHOSE to get involved with alot of the threads pertaining to God, some I do and some I don't. I do believe you are wrong to say "why does everyone here hate God". A message forum is much like joing an IRC channel, not everthing you see written will be to your liking.

If you don't enjoy the conversation, don't join in.

Since Frihost is a free server, just be happy with the services they provide, and ignore the rest.
a.Bird
Soulfire wrote:
God exists, my friends. But your judgement comes later. And it's not so much they hate God than they shut it all out.

Maybe they're threatened, they tremble at the thought of someone more powerful than themselves. Maybe they're so used to putting themselves above everyone else that they can't possibly comprehend the thought of someone higher than themselves. Maybe after so long of putting themselves first, they just can't find it to put God first. Ah yes, the deadly sin of Pride.

Notice the "maybe" before all that stuff, before you begin to mindlessly flame me.


You are relentless. I know you can't see it, you OBVIOUSLY can't see it, but this know-it-all, unfounded hogwash is what makes people feel so forcefed! You are stating all of this as if it is actually justifiable. The sooner you learn to loose the bullshit bigotry, the sooner people will value what you have to say. You are entitled to your opinions, but opinions begin with "IMO", "It's my belief that", etc.
nam_siddharth
Jeslyn wrote:
Being a "non-believer" seems to be the new trend everywhere.


It is not new trend dear. Buddha came 550 years before Jesus Christ.
a.Bird
nam_siddharth wrote:
Jeslyn wrote:
Being a "non-believer" seems to be the new trend everywhere.


It is not new trend dear. Buddha came 550 years before Jesus Christ.


Pray
Sappho
a.Bird wrote:
Soulfire wrote:
Sappho wrote:
Sometimes when i look around me and all whats happening i have this feeling that even if there was a god the Christians would be the last ones that would end up in heaven. All they do is wave their hands and shout their beliefs, only judge and its them who throw the stones first, but thats all, they rarely even behave like they say we others should do. They are just parody of themselves. Of course there are Christians that arent so full of themselves, that dont need to shove their believes down our throats, i wish all of em would be like that but the truth is not like that. Sad

You can't misinterpret things people say. I profess my faith, I am not ashamed to believe, and I want people to know I am Christian, but I don't force it "down people's throats."

Forgive them for wanting to save you.


I think that is exactly what he means by forcing it down people's throats. The way you pretentiously imply that people who don't believe in God need to be saved is just as frustrating as having a fist shoved down your esophagus. He doesn't care that they want to save him, he knows that's what they're trying to do and that is why he is feeling so deepthroated.


I am a girl but except that your perception is quite good, exactly my point, i dont need to be saved but yet they still feel the urge to do so. Smile
tidruG
Arnie wrote:
Most of the people with that attitude seem to be believers in science (this is a reference to my posts in the science vs religion topic) that say "Christians are all wrong". The idea that Christians would be forcing their opinion on others seems a big prejudice to me. Everywhere here I hear people shouting that the believers should shut up, a lot more than I actually hear those believers. So obviously I'm rather annoyed by those people that keep bashing Christianity: it's not scientifical, it's medieval, it's this, it's that. If you don't believe in science you're an irrational fool! Well, I'd like to make my own choice on that huh!? I'm more annoyed by the anti-Christians forcing their opinion than the Christians.

I mean, come on. For example Skullpizza sees himself as an anti-Christian missionary. Literally, he's preaching. And nobody cares? I just want people like that to shut up and keep their nonsense to themselves. And otherwise don't be so biased to accuse others of preaching. They're making a lot more "repent!" calls than the Christians.

To say this less polite: you are a bunch of stupid hypocrites. I'm not interested in the Christians on the forums, and I hardly notice them anyway. But the anti-religious people keep shouting their opinion and nobody has a problem with that. Just shut up. I don't care about your nonsense. I'm not interested how you're anti-God, anti-Jesus, anti-Bush, nor in how you are so gifted with sarcasm to defend your noble purpose, or for that matter how you follow Crowley's law, how your nickname is derived from mystical nonsense, etcetera. Thanks.

No offense... but it's pretty ironic that you are actually posting a racy ranty post complaining about racy ranty anti-Christian posts. To be honest, I get annoyed at any kind of rants, but I generally don't go ranting about it. Wink

Soulfire wrote:
Because these people don't know God, and when they don't know something, they are afraid of it.

Open your hearts.

I know God, believe in God, love and trust God... but I'm not so positive on religion. I think I have opened my heart, but also I've opened my eyes/mind.

Quote:
Open your MIND.

There you go! Very Happy

Soulfire wrote:
It's unfortunate you have no faith, but I am Christian, like I said. That is what I believe, that is what I perceive. Why think different? There's no reason to think any different. There's no reason to listen to you, just as much as you don't have to listen to me.

I'm not Christian, but I still have faith. And since my heart is open, I will listen to what you have to say and even learn from your thoughts and beliefs.

Quote:
But "why think different?" ?! What if you thought differently and realized that what you had previously thought about God was something you no longer believed in. What if you felt MORE spiritually awakened and influenced than you did when you believed in his existence? The way you say "why think different?" lends me to believe that you are actually afraid of losing your faith and seeing the world through a different lens.

Applause.

Sappho wrote:
Sometimes when i look around me and all whats happening i have this feeling that even if there was a god the Christians would be the last ones that would end up in heaven. All they do is wave their hands and shout their beliefs, only judge and its them who throw the stones first, but thats all, they rarely...

To give Christians their due, there are a lot more Christians with access to media such as the Internet where they try to convince people of the superiority of their religion over any other religion, than people of any other religion.

Quote:
Forgive them for wanting to save you.

Maybe you aren't forcing your beliefs down others' throats, but some (or rather, a lot) of other Christians are... and well, "forgive them for wanting to save you"... those kind of threads leads me to believe that you do in fact think Christianity is superior and everyone not conforming needs to be "saved"... I feel safe enough in my pure and quiet belief in God, without having to have anyone else validate my belief in Him.

Quote:
Maybe they're threatened, they tremble at the thought of someone more powerful than themselves. Maybe they're so used to putting themselves above everyone else that they can't possibly comprehend the thought of someone higher than themselves. Maybe after so long of putting themselves first, they just can't find it to put God first. Ah yes, the deadly sin of Pride.

Notice the "maybe" before all that stuff, before you begin to mindlessly flame me.

I did pay attention to the "maybe", but I still have a couple of comments to make about that post... to begin with... "the sin of Pride"... it seems surprising to me that you talk about pride when it seems that most believers have equal (or more) pride due to their believing in God... so much so that they feel that everyone who doesn't believe is downtrodden, damned and needs help. Alternatively, everything who doesn't believe in the Christian God is a heathen or a kafir (both terms used insultingly), which seems to stem from... you guessed it - pride.

Once again, I see my sentiment echoed...
Quote:
The way you pretentiously imply that people who don't believe in God need to be saved is just as frustrating as having a fist shoved down your esophagus.
Grimboy
KHO: I thought a God was meant to be a personal thing, so why would it matter if someone else's view is radically different, remember if your God is real then you'll be able to maliciously laugh in their faces when they go to hell.

Soulfire: Not afraid, I just enjoy the freedom of exploring our world, my god is the universe and the more I and the human race learn about the universe the closer we are to God. If you want to have a God, go ahead there a wide selection of entities to associate your identity with and become overly self-righteous about.

My view is believe what you want, the only reason for which I would have a go at religion is because it can cause wars when people believe or make others believe that they are fighting for a higher being when that is simply ruining our freedom to believe what we want. Evolution is based on science but if that's not what you want to believe then go ahead, just don't try and stop others persuing it and try to teach others beliefs in place of things with hard evidence.
Ultima1080
Can't we all just get along guys/gals? I mean, every person has a right to his or her opinion. If you can't get over that, sit the ****** down and shut the ****** up. Just because someone is anti-God/anti-Christian/anti-Abortion/anti-****** doesn't mean you have to flip out and start stupid flame wars on a chat board. I believe in God and I am certainly proud of it. However, I also respect and do believe in somethings that an "antheist" might believe in. So, in short, quit your bitching if someone doesn't believe the same thing as you. Your post on a web forum isn't suddenly going to open their eyes and allow them to see things your way.
Arnie
The problem is that your posts here are as "ranty" as mine, Tigdrug. Except even longer.

Anyway, it's not that aspect I'm annoyed of. It's the hypocritical aspect. The focus is on the Christians and not on the anti-Christians who are being a lot worse.
GranMastah
If your destiny was to be stuck in shitty Serbia during these past 10-20 yrs, I would be the one asking why we all hate god!
Well, i don't actually hate god, I hate all the people who hide behind the god and do "noble deeds" in his sake, like crusades, fundamentalist terrorist attacks, or even stupid disputes like "there must be something" or "our lives are being watched" and, my favourite "suffer here you'll be blessed in heaven" how old can you be to believe simething like that? If the church takes your money for your whole life, you will be rewarded in heaven? no, yoú're a naive!!!
Reaper
A few of you seem to think that religion and god are two completly seperate things, well they aren't, they go hand in hand, If im not mistaken budda or w/e talked to god?? so that would link him to god would it not? there for his entire religion. Also isn't the definition of god simply someone who is all powerful?
Quote:
a man of such superior qualities that he seems like a deity to other people; "he was a god among men"

Quote:
deity: any supernatural being worshipped as controlling some part of the world or some aspect of life or who is the personification of a force
Quote:
the supernatural being conceived as the perfect and omnipotent and omniscient originator and ruler of the universe; the object of worship in monotheistic religions

Eh gods the ruler of the universe huh?? funny how they suddenly edit that stuff when they find out the universe existed. Its amazing what we have "Known" from the past to the present, We used to Know that gods were responsible for rain, thunder, droughts and other things like that, We used to know that the world was flat, we used to know that drilling a hole in someones head would release the demons possessing them, there for allowing that person to go to heaven,
A being that controlled part of the world, or an aspect of life? well I guess that makes hitler a god huh?? since he controlled part of the world and controlled if someone died or lived.
So its all about how you see it, and it seems as we develope new technologys we are able to disprove another religious fact.
SkullPizza
Reaper wrote:
A few of you seem to think that religion and god are two completly seperate things, well they aren't, they go hand in hand, If im not mistaken budda or w/e talked to god?? so that would link him to god would it not? there for his entire religion. Also isn't the definition of god simply someone who is all powerful?


Umm well truth be told - Buddah was just a philosopher, infact he made his followers promise not to make him into some kind of diety. Unfortunatley this did not happen, although he wasn't thought of as a diety for hundreds of years. The fog of time finally turned his memory into legend and therefore into the realm of the supernatural.

Buddah never really thought of God as we think of God. God to him was simply a state of existence without suffering or desire or more commonly known as Nirvana.

He thought that we all started in this state of nirvana or "being one with God" and somehow forgot how to stay that way and found ourself locked in this eternal cycle of desire vs. suffering.

of course i am not a buddhistand i may be talking out of my ass. please correct me if i'm wrong about any of this. I just went to a buddhist retreat center once.
tidruG
Arnie wrote:
The problem is that your posts here are as "ranty" as mine, Tigdrug. Except even longer.

Rant = post made out of an angry disposition (or at least one that appears to be). I assure you, I'm generally very calm and composed while making my posts... even if it means I have to wait 5 minutes to calm down, and then start writing... Wink However, we'll leave this as a difference of opinion. But to give you credit, my first post in this thread was a bit of a rant, mostly out of frustration... never mind.

By the way, the length of a post doesn't determine if it's a rant. For example...
"I ****** hate ____. He's so stupid! He's like a daft moron walking the streets with his brains in his knees! What a daft, talentless ******"
(that's a very short post, but an example of a rant)
(PS: You can fill in the blank with anyone in mind... I was focussing on no one in particular while writing it though...)

Reaper wrote:
A few of you seem to think that religion and god are two completly seperate things, well they aren't, they go hand in hand, If im not mistaken budda or w/e talked to god?? so that would link him to god would it not? there for his entire religion. Also isn't the definition of god simply someone who is all powerful?

Religion and God definitely are 2 very different things. You Buddha example is a good example in my favour. Buddha never spoke of himself as a God... yet, if his followers decided to treat him like a God, then they created a God out of a human.
God is very simply ... God. Religion is a set of rules and doctrines that, in the name of that God, try to tell you how to live and conduct yourself, or what actions are morally right and which ones are immoral.
Dictionary Meanings of "Religion" wrote:
    1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
    2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

  1. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
  2. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
  3. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

So, except for the first meaning, all other meanings of the word need not have anything to do with God. Wink
Religion (as defined by the second last point) could be a good thing, if it provides people (who, to me, seem very afraid/lazy to think for themselves, and generally prefer to accept the beliefs of someone else, which either have majority acceptance or are simply well-presented...) with a purpose, with a reason to be "good". But what I don't like is when religion imposes too much on your own personal thought process... or when people take their religious beliefs to fanatical proportions... do you agree?
Lennon
tidruG wrote:
Dictionary Meanings of "Religion" wrote:
    1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
    2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

  1. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
  2. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
  3. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

So, except for the first meaning, all other meanings of the word need not have anything to do with God. Wink
Religion (as defined by the second last point) could be a good thing, if it provides people (who, to me, seem very afraid/lazy to think for themselves, and generally prefer to accept the beliefs of someone else, which either have majority acceptance or are simply well-presented...) with a purpose, with a reason to be "good". But what I don't like is when religion imposes too much on your own personal thought process... or when people take their religious beliefs to fanatical proportions... do you agree?


This definition defines the deep inner belief that the soul is searching for.

There's times when I'm sick to the bone of searching for lost causes, blind faith, illogical contradictions between the gospels and psychology or humanity, motivating myself to keep up my faith which as a Catholic is very nieve and indifferent to self-worth and self-esteem, trying to prove that there's a God out there when there's sooooo much doubt it'll make you think eventually that maybe it is just a lost cause, maybe the element of faith is just self-convinced imagination and false aspiration.

Maybe there is no God, maybe there is.

Religion just teaches us how to understand that cause that was lost but now is found, teaches us the true meaning of life. Religion gives us purpose, gives us aspiration by giving us direction to the inner truths we are all seeking for. Buddhists find their karma in following these truths to perfection by self-awareness. Monotheists and Polytheists like myself seek answers from a God(s) for moral guidance and spiritual guidance.

If you find this rediculous, stupid or nonsense bull****, then I've lost my voice to the wind and to the four stone walls around me.

most of the saints and scholars found themselves in doubt at some point in their life; St John of the Cross's Darkness, Newton's madness at the end of his life. And the strange thing nowadays is that psychology can almost to a T describe God's positive spiritual renewal by possitivism and satan's temptations by the negative unconciousness which eats all of us up all the time. Many of the deeply religious attribute the wonders of the world to God, but the only one truly deserving to be enacted by God is Intelligent Design, all else has different alternative theories out there to describe natural causes.

miracles are interesting. God seems to be the cause of these miracles, and I remember one priest saying how a man with Hutchkinsons's Disease was cured in Lourdes in the 1950's, and was officially declared a true miracle, but then he died in a tragic tractor accident unpublicised in a similar instantenous fashion as his healing. It makes you think what miracles are all about. the priest says that miracles are intended on the spiritual renewal of others, which contradicts the gospels where Jesus heals the sicks, often telling them to keep a low profile about it. In fact, mirracles could be described by science of the future. visons and near death experiences are beginning to be explained by psychological stimulation of the specialised cortex regions under special conditions. It was interesting that milk maids in the 1700's were miraculously preserved from illnesses like smallpox while the world was plagued in the smallpox pandemic. This was described by immunology, since milk-maids were immune to smallpox after handling cow's milk so much. Science of the future can explain most of these miracles. But some miracles are outstanding, like the water into wine, or the five loaves and three fishes miracles. the disappearance of major disease's instantaneously is truly remarkeable. Hoaxes, conspiracy theories alike have the opportunity to decline any evidence of these miracles, but there is nearly always a strong evidence value and scientific inability to explain these miracles.

i spent years of searching for the truth from stephen Hawking's singularity of the space-time cosmos to the evolution/creation debate, from scientific research into miracles; understanding the true dogma of the Catholic Church, the Cathecism and reading nearly the whole bible from start to finish with interpretation and correlation. i've been a disciple of the Sacred heart and his law, the two general love commandments and his attitude of righteousness and spiritual awareness.
But yet still I am not convinced 100% of the truth, the doubt overwhelms me, I don't hate god but out of respect and in search of the truth I hold an open attitude and wait.... I wait for something to happen which probably will never happen, just keep on going through the walk of life at my own pace taking opportunities that come and meeting people that cross my path. Destiny brings me here to tell you this, but destiny can be explained by natural causes or supernatural causes. St Thomas Aquinas tells us that for every cause there is an effect.

But there must be a first cause.
This is such an overwhelming arguement that i'm not expecting anybody to answer this doubt here or challenge this post philosophically, if anyone can reason with all these statements provide me with answers except i don't want any "You'll just have to accept there's no god" or "you'll just have to accept God as He is", coz that would mean our our gift of intelligence and free will is futile and serves no purpose in life.
ainieas
I've nothing against God, its religion that I'm all against - any religion. I know, it might seem like I'm here defending what is apparently my faith but actually I'm not even a believer.
hsadmin
KHO wrote:
l left for awhile, because l was tired of seeing all these anti-Christian threads, and evolutionists ranting on about their relegion Neutral.

l now return about a month later, to see the same damn thing, what the hell?! Neutral Do you people seriously just hate the fact that there is no concievable way that you could exist if you were not created first? Or are you nihilistic bastards just afraid to admit the truth that there is a God, and HE did create you, the earth, all things living and dead, the universe, whatever? Neutral

l am glad to see that some people have still been defending the Christians, but for the rest of you that would ignoranly deny the existance of anything without any real research, How dare you! Neutral The majority of the evolutionists consider themselves to be educated men (or women), but if you were really educated, you would be able to open your minds to the possibilities! Fifty years ago, who would have thought that we could accomplish the things we can do now? Surely you can't think that your first ASSUMPPTION is going to be accurate, or even anywhere near the truth!! Neutral

Those of you slandering Christians because we seek to humble ourselves before God, or because we have faith in God, a force which no one can see, you would claim that we are ignorant or un-educated? You would rather put your faith in bacteria and a random explosion of gases?! What sense does this make? Neutral

And evolution, it is understandable that if you drop a monkey in a new environment, then it will adapt, does this mean that it will shed all its fur over a long time perion, straighten its back and learn to speak in a civilized manner? NO!! If an eel where to get stuck on land, would it grow legs and lungs to survive? NO!! Evolution has NO factual information!! Why would those who claim to be educated believe in this crap?!


I am protistant christan, and I don't get why people worship satan or anything else.. EVERYONE SHOULD BELIEVE IN GOD! THERE's ENOUGH ROOM IN HEAVEN FOR EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES IN, AND WORSHIPS GOD! CHRIST! JESUS!
riv_
I just wanted to say thankyou, particularly to tidrug and lennon for their attempts at cutting through all the mudslinging... I really appreciate your posts in this thread.
Saphho wrote:
Sometimes when i look around me and all whats happening i have this feeling that even if there was a god the Christians would be the last ones that would end up in heaven. All they do is wave their hands and shout their beliefs, only judge and its them who throw the stones first, but thats all, they rarely even behave like they say we others should do. They are just parody of themselves. Of course there are Christians that arent so full of themselves, that dont need to shove their believes down our throats, i wish all of em would be like that but the truth is not like that. Sad

That hits close to home. I'm a Christian, and am truly saddened at what that word has become. In my own community I see people that I love calling themselves Christians and acting like jerks everyday; ANd what I've seen in these forums lately makes it awfully hard to to use the same word to describe myselfl. I'm certain that, in the end, in heaven, there will be a lot of surprises as to who goes where.
A Christian is simply a follower of Christ. (I think it's fitting that the term was originally invented by the Romans in Christ's lifetime, to mock His followers. Now, people who don't seem to know Him at all wear the title like a badge of honour, to try to put themselves above others...)
I just think it's time that Christians started listening to what Sappho is saying. Christ came to demonstrate grace and forgiveness and love. And to follow Him means to do the same.
No-one who spends their life shouting that people are going to burn in hell... no-one who is consumed with anger, bitterness, hatred... no-one who is wrapped up in a position of anti-abortion, -homosexuality, -science, -evolution, or whatever... no-one who is more concerned about being right than about the heart and soul and person they're meeting with... no-one like that could possibly know the same CHrist that I know.
I am not the shining example of love and grace. I fail. Often. But I don't think my job as a Christian is to force the world to share my ideas, or to stop sinning, or to agree with me.
I think my job as a Christian is to become an example of love an grace. TO become loving and graceful. And if you see evidence of that, and want to know more, and ask... I'll tell you.
My God is big enough to reveal the truth without me cramming down the throats of people who aren't interested. (And what makes me think I understand it well enough to represent it correctly?)
It is truly heartbreaking to me that my fellow believers refuse to see that. It only demonstrates their own lack of faith. Sometimes believers lack faith too.
I think people hate God because we have presented a hateable God.[i]
skaccomatto
I think that nobody should try to force other people to believe in something they don't feel.
Same way, people who don't believe should not think that they are the only one that have opened their eyes and that religious people are fools.

My personal opinion is that there is no God, that religion is just something people need to get rid of the fear of death.

I am young, so I think I don't need a God... maybe when I'll be old I will start believing again... doesn't this sound weird?
Arnie
tidruG wrote:
Arnie wrote:
The problem is that your posts here are as "ranty" as mine, Tigdrug. Except even longer.

Rant = post made out of an angry disposition (or at least one that appears to be). I assure you, I'm generally very calm and composed while making my posts... even if it means I have to wait 5 minutes to calm down, and then start writing... Wink However, we'll leave this as a difference of opinion. But to give you credit, my first post in this thread was a bit of a rant, mostly out of frustration... never mind.

By the way, the length of a post doesn't determine if it's a rant. For example...
"I **** hate ____. He's so stupid! He's like a daft moron walking the streets with his brains in his knees! What a daft, talentless *******"
(that's a very short post, but an example of a rant)
(PS: You can fill in the blank with anyone in mind... I was focussing on no one in particular while writing it though...)
I knew you were going to say something like that, tidruG. That's why I added to my post:
Quote:
Anyway, it's not that aspect I'm annoyed of. It's the hypocritical aspect. The focus is on the Christians and not on the anti-Christians who are being a lot worse.
And I also knew you weren't going to reply to that. What is considered 'ranty' is also a matter of personal taste anyway.
Valleyman
Lennon wrote:
But there must be a first cause.
This is such an overwhelming arguement that i'm not expecting anybody to answer this doubt here or challenge this post philosophically, if anyone can reason with all these statements provide me with answers except i don't want any "You'll just have to accept there's no god" or "you'll just have to accept God as He is", coz that would mean our our gift of intelligence and free will is futile and serves no purpose in life.


And what's God's first cause? I agree that there should be a first cause but it seems to me that "the universe is eternal" is as good an explanation as "god is eternal".
Lennon
One of the arguements for and against this is the singularity of the space-time cosmos. Since we cannot define t=0 (as I've stressed by now), no universe can exist at the t=0. Quantum Mechanics cannot theorise up that far, yet alone calculate past singularity into a reverse big crunch.
So is the universe a big bang, big crunch, big bang, big crunch cycle. Singularity and the lack of the total unified theory denies any valid theories to prove this. There are other problems like entropy, 2nd law in thermodynamics which forbids the big bang-big crunch theory coz the universe will never achieve entropy. Hence, the universe should not be eternal.
The second theory is that the universe is expanding from singularity which it started from a single point with no initial cause, this it seems is another possibility but it denies the mass conservation rule (you can't have something created from nothing) by scientific theories.
Another possibility is the Stephen Hawking theory of multiple singularities, which under the quantum foam theory has multiple origins - crazy and I think Stephen Hawking recently admitting faking some of the data.

So we don't know scientifically speaking. Note the similarity of the 2nd theory to Genesis. This is the one I like to believe coz I'm a christian.
Bondings
Lennon wrote:
The second theory is that the universe is expanding from singularity which it started from a single point with no initial cause, this it seems is another possibility but it denies the mass conservation rule (you can't have something created from nothing) by scientific theories.

Why wouldn't it be possible for the mass/energy to come from somewhere else? Why wouldn't it be possible that something out of our 3 dimensions caused our universe to be created? And mass/energy conservation might not even be a characteristic of that something.

And isn't the second law of thermodynamics a probabilistic law? Hence not valid in extreme conditions?
Quote:
A common misconception is that the second law means that entropy never ever decreases - but the second law is only a tendency, hence, it only means that it is highly unlikely that entropy will decrease in a closed system at any given instant.

From wikipedia
Lennon
Bondings wrote:
Lennon wrote:
The second theory is that the universe is expanding from singularity which it started from a single point with no initial cause, this it seems is another possibility but it denies the mass conservation rule (you can't have something created from nothing) by scientific theories.

Why wouldn't it be possible for the mass/energy to come from somewhere else? Why wouldn't it be possible that something out of our 3 dimensions caused our universe to be created? And mass/energy conservation might not even be a characteristic of that something..

We consider the universe to contain everything involving mass, energy and space. Approaching t=0 everything is included in the universe and is contained in a much much smaller space at higher energy intensity, too intense for solid matter to exist, only ultra-white-hot radiation. Any other mass-energy source would be parrallel universes which contradicts the definition of universe. Looking back at singularity the universe appears to collapse on itself into non-existence, looking forward the universe seems to unravel from a point of infinitely non-existent singularity and unfolds by expanding and cooling. If the mass-energy conservation was broken we would have mass-energy appearing out of nowhere or disappearing into non-existence, which scientifically is illogical and unnatural. The only explanation for this loophole is if energy-mass came into the universe from outside the universe. But by scientific definition, nothing can exist outside the universe.
There may be a scientific phenomenon which existed immediately after expansion that has yet to be discovered by quantum gravity that could explain how singularity is avoided, such as Stephen Hawking's theory and quantum foam/wormholes.
Bondings wrote:

And isn't the second law of thermodynamics a probabilistic law? Hence not valid in extreme conditions?
Quote:
A common misconception is that the second law means that entropy never ever decreases - but the second law is only a tendency, hence, it only means that it is highly unlikely that entropy will decrease in a closed system at any given instant.

From wikipedia

Not just probabilistic. From a quantum physics point of view, yes, it's true, probability holds in, but that's just at the quantum level. On a larger molecular, chemical and biological scale, probability becomes 1, random occurances are diminished to non-observeable. For example electron probabilities are random in the atom, but on a molecular scale the electrons follow a pattern, where the probabilities become less random. On a biological scale the effect of random oscillations of the electron become negligable, with chemical and biological reactions governed not by probability but by laws. The laws of thermodynamics are not seen as random in the universe scale, statistically considering so many systems at once, and the universe will as an average seek to balance itself out by expanding, cooling etc. This is entropy, a tendency for balance. Hence, chemical reactions are not probabilistic but are often irreversible due to entropy. An example of entropy is time. Time is irreversible, forward direction only. This is due to entropy, with space-time expanding constantly. To reverse time requires wormholes with so much gravitational energy that it would destroy the universe, equivalent to millions of black holes in strength. The universe expands at the speed of light, which in pure space is always constant and irreversible. No way gravity will be strong enough to slow this light down and slow the expansion down, and a big crunch or cyclic universe is forbidden.
peterstephens
To stick to some ideas, belief, whether it is about Religion, Science, Sport, Nationalism, is why you have a disagreement. What is the point of then claiming any one side of the argument is right or wrong? That's just more disagreement.
sibbahz
I dont hate religion personally, just have big problems understanding it.

Im not the sort of person to flame religion, but im not a religious person nevertheless.
Lennon
This is not an arguement.

This is simply the scientific case scenarios that have been proposed to explain the origin of the universe. I could bias it by comparing to Genesis or by comparing to evolution but as I stand now, I'll hold an open mind with no bias, and just wait... wait for a good explanation for everything.
empower
Wow ... what a discussion ...
So interesting comments and some fumming ones.

I am a Christian
I don't love religion BUT
I love God

Laughing

Anyway thought I will start a seperate discussion on Why do you love God? So those who have something to share there can. Razz

Cheers,
Empower
sonam
I bealive God exist. But I bealive religion is not necessery. I have many iniciations (blessings) in different religions christianiti, buddism, hinduism, etc. but all of this iniciations is help to me to realise Truth. I cannot to tell what is Truth because I didnt got it jet but in one way this is love for all beengs, love like have Christ or Moter Teresa, Buddha or Dalai Lama, Krishna or Sai Baba, and many other realised peoples. This love is energy in our body it is not different from us, somewhere in haven. Everyone have this love whats mean everyone have God, because everyone love someone or something.

Sonam

Sorry for poor English
tidruG
Arnie wrote:
Quote:
Anyway, it's not that aspect I'm annoyed of. It's the hypocritical aspect. The focus is on the Christians and not on the anti-Christians who are being a lot worse.
And I also knew you weren't going to reply to that. What is considered 'ranty' is also a matter of personal taste anyway.

To be honest, the reason I didn't reply to that is because I assumed that to be your opinion, and treated it as one. I don't like attacking opinions, because everyone is entitled to one. Also, I didn't quite comprehend which ones you were referring to as being a lot worse...
I mean... if it was written without comma, it probably means "...the anti-Christians who are being a lot worse", implying that the anti-Christians are a lot worse,
or
"...the Christians, and not on the anti-Christians, who are being a lot worse" (I put the commas in red because oftentimes, I've noticed people leaving out punctuation marks, which completely changes the meaning of the sentence, and which, if true in this case, implies that the Christians are a lot worse.

In my personal opinion, I get more irritated (and sometimes, just plain amused) at the "God-or-hell" posts... like the one a few posts before yours Wink

And I apologize... I think I'm dragging this for too long. I don't like and generally avoid getting personal and picky about others' posts.

Lennon wrote:
The second theory is that the universe is expanding from singularity which it started from a single point with no initial cause, this it seems is another possibility but it denies the mass conservation rule (you can't have something created from nothing) by scientific theories.

Like you said, it would not make sense to define a time t=0 or to try and define conditions and define laws for these conditions at a time t=0-, if we consider the "Big Bang" happened at t=0. Perhaps there are different rules that applied to time, and the M conservation or the M-E rule at t=0-.

Bondings wrote:
Why wouldn't it be possible for the mass/energy to come from somewhere else? Why wouldn't it be possible that something out of our 3 dimensions caused our universe to be created? And mass/energy conservation might not even be a characteristic of that something.

What I was trying to say.
Lennon
the M-E conservation is a logical arguement that's fundamental to science in reasoning with theories. It's when numbers are supposed to match up, when one side of the equation balances the other. To say that something would just appear without a cause is irrational.

how can you hate god and think he doesn't exist at the same time.
How can you love God and yet he has no physical presence.

A God cannot be reasoned with, a mystery only answered for the dead assuming life after death. If there is no life after death then the dead cannot think or see or feel because they are dead and gone with no destiny. we can't say that we will know when we die, because when we die there's a 50/50 in the afterlife/nothing. If there's nothing it's too late to think about it, you're finished. If there's something and you wait till you die, it's still too late to think about it - you'll be judged.

Metaphysics indicates a 50/50. Your odds, how will you play them. You can read everyone else's opinion, but you'll never know. 4 billion believers in an afterlife at least, that's the crowd on one side.
PureSimpleNatural
Rookiejas wrote:
ok ppl generally don't trust god because of the church! i mean the are stingy bums! I mean look at the medievil ages when the church sold pieces of paper to get rid of sin i mean BFS. and take Mormonism they take like a 1/4 of your yearly pay(i think) anyway thats why ppl don't like God or religion!

My feelings are wat i just said and also who knows if the bible is true it could be some story some person wrote when they got bored!

sorry if i hurt your feelings.


No hurt feelings here... but you may want to research a bit more on '1/4 of your yearly pay' thing - that's inaccurate. And it's certainly not because the LDS Church are stingy bums... Wink
Nathan d
Quote:
how can you hate god and think he doesn't exist at the same time.


A good observation.

Quote:
How can you love God and yet he has no physical presence.


Someone doesn't need a physical presence for you to love them. For example, if a family member is on a trip you still love them! Because you KNOW there out there, even if you cannot see them.

God does exist. How else did the earth come to be?! Certainly not some retarded theory like the big bang! To many things fit to perfectly for that to happen. I have trouble understanding why so many scientists are not Christians. The more I study Gods creation the more I am amazed by his power and perfection.

There ARE many religions out there. I'm not trying to persuade you to become a Christian, only you can do that, I'm simply giving to truthful information. Put the pieces of the puzzle together! NO ONE HAS EVER BEEN ABLE TO PROVE CHRISTIONITY WRONG! There is so much scientific evidence that there is a god out there. Other religions there is NO proof that has stood for thousands of years. The bible has been around a long time, and it has NEVER been proven wrong. That alone is enough evidence to back up Christianity.
Lennon
I am a Christian scientist myself, just that science and the origin of the universe and astrology, physics and geology and biology all suggest evolution, and if religion thinks it's all crap then they're biased. The Catholic Church has accepted evolution as a possible work of God by intelligent Design, no matter what happens God always has a role.

But like I said, you'll never really know. Just blind faith in God and the afterlife until you die.
Disco_Dance_monkey
I myself am an Athiest and always love to see when someone tries to slander a belief and fails miserably

KHO wrote:
And evolution, it is understandable that if you drop a monkey in a new environment, then it will adapt, does this mean that it will shed all its fur over a long time perion, straighten its back and learn to speak in a civilized manner?

The Theory of Evolution does NOT state that humans evolved from monkeys, rather that humans and monkeys have a common ancestor.

Why did human's lose all the hair and 'learn to speak in a civilized manner'? Because it is believed that the Human Species originates from the great rift valley in Africa, which used to be a lake with an island or something in the middle, and found themselves in the plains of africa. Being out of the jungle, our ancestors developed wider hips for upright walking, instead of the narrower and longer ones found in our monkey cousins (which is why they can only walk upright for very short distances). We lost our fur, hair whatever you want to call it because we were now sleeping on the ground instead of in trees, and hair is a paradise for tics, fleas and bugs; which is also the reason we developed earwax.

And secondly, assuming for a moment that monkies are our ancestors, dropping one monkey in a new environment wouldn't do diddly squat. Evolution is a process that takes thousands of years, and seeing as monkeys are not asexual, you would need many monkies.

So if you want to slander a belief, such as evolution, at least get your facts right.
Nathan d
Quote:
The bible has been around a long time, and it has NEVER been proven wrong.


The bible completely contradicts evelution. And as I said before the Bible has never been proven wrong.

Quote:
But like I said, you'll never really know. Just blind faith in God and the afterlife until you die.


Faith -
Definition1: belief
Definition2: trust

Blind Faith -
Definition: belief without true understanding, perception, or discrimination
Nathan d
@ Disco_Dance_monkey - Man... Evolution is just a bunch of theories. There is NO hard rock evidence that that’s what really happened! Why can you not just accept that there is a god? Probably because either you have BLIND FAITH, or because your too proud of your/mans creations to give any credit to god.
Soulfire
There is no such thing as blind faith - you either have faith and trust in God, or you don't.

Many people just choose to believe (yes, it's a belief) in evolution simply because many scientists say thats what happens, and they've bent the truth to make it fit, and to make it seem plausible.

The theory that everything randomly fell together to create the entire universe is no less absurd than someone creating it.
Lennon
Wrong,

You cannot take the bible literally in genesis (according to scholars) unless you stick to your faith that nothing is impossible to God.

Blind faith is unreasoned faith, unsure of it's understanding. There's always an element of doubt. You can't be sure that God created the universe. Only faith in what religion teaches can make you feel so sure. You really have to have an open mind to see both sides of the story with no bias. You have to allow yourself to consider how there mightn't be a God, maybe it's a voice in your head, maybe it's the Holy spirit, maybe it's a miracle.

Then there is reasoned faith. I've never seen the south pole, but after so much facts out there I have to accept that it exists, I believe it's there. All theories to be accepted need to be believed.

Genesis story one lines up nicely with evolution:
In order of evolution.
In the beginning there was nothing (at time = zero, then space = zero)
there was light (science uses the term radiation instead of light)
there was stars and the sun and the earth
the ocean and the atmosphere.
Microbiology, then life in sea, then life in air, then life on land
Then animals and humans.

But even genesis cannot be taken literally coz there's two different sequences, two different stories with different outcomes.


the purpose of the bible is to direct mankind to a relationship with God.
Nathan d
Quote:
But even genesis cannot be taken literally coz there's two different sequences, two different stories with different outcomes.


Could you please clarify that?
Nathan d
Quote:
Genesis story one lines up nicely with evolution:
In order of evolution.
In the beginning there was nothing (at time = zero, then space = zero)
there was light (science uses the term radiation instead of light)
there was stars and the sun and the earth
the ocean and the atmosphere.
Microbiology, then life in sea, then life in air, then life on land
Then animals and humans.


So all that tells us is that Charles Dawin copyed his theory from the Bible!
Lennon
Just take a look at genesis.
The first story describes the 6 days of creation and the 7th day rest.
The second story describes mankind taken out of the earth before any animals were created (while the earth was yet without plant or herb), and woman was created from adam's rib.

charles Darwin didn't know anything about quantum mechanics or DNA mutation.
Nathan d
@ Lennon - I think your somewhat confused. There are not two differant storys in Genesis. Man was created on the sixth day.
Sappho
Nathan d wrote:
Man... Evolution is just a bunch of theories. There is NO hard rock evidence that that’s what really happened!


Hehehe, and bible is just a tautology in ur eyes isnt it? Its prolly ppl like u that decrease the credibility of the christians. Wink
Nathan d
@ Sappho - I'm giving evidence. Your not. So please don't bash me.
Lennon
genesis (1:1-31, 2:1-4) wrote:
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty. Darkness was on the surface of the deep. God's Spirit was hovering over the surface of the waters. God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.God saw the light, and saw that it was good. God divided the light from the darkness.God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." There was evening and there was morning, one day.

God said, "Let there be an expanse in the middle of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters." God made the expanse, and divided the waters which were under the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so.God called the expanse "sky." There was evening and there was morning, a second day.

God said, "Let the waters under the sky be gathered together to one place, and let the dry land appear;" and it was so. God called the dry land "earth," and the gathering together of the waters he called "seas." God saw that it was good. God said, "Let the earth put forth grass, herbs yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit after their kind, with its seed in it, on the earth;" and it was so. The earth brought forth grass, herbs yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit, with its seed in it, after their kind; and God saw that it was good.There was evening and there was morning, a third day.

God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of sky to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years;and let them be for lights in the expanse of sky to give light on the earth;" and it was so. God made the two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He also made the stars. God set them in the expanse of sky to give light to the earth,and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. God saw that it was good. There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

God said, "Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of sky." God created the large sea creatures, and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed, after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind. God saw that it was good.God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth." There was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.

God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind, livestock, creeping things, and animals of the earth after their kind;" and it was so. God made the animals of the earth after their kind, and the livestock after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind. God saw that it was good. God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the sky, and over the livestock, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." God created man in his own image. In God's image he created him; male and female he created them. God blessed them. God said to them, "Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth, and subdue it. Have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the sky, and over every living thing that moves on the earth." God said, "Behold, I have given you every herb yielding seed, which is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree, which bears fruit yielding seed. It will be your food. To every animal of the earth, and to every bird of the sky, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food;" and it was so. God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. There was evening and there was morning, a sixth day.

The heavens and the earth were finished, and all their vast array.On the seventh day God finished his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. God blessed the seventh day, and made it holy, because he rested in it from all his work which he had created and made.This is the history of the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that Yahweh God made the earth and the heavens.

That's the first story of creation. Most bibles uses sections with headings, and this is a typcial name for the first chapter.
genesis (2:5-24) wrote:
No plant of the field was yet in the earth, and no herb of the field had yet sprung up; for Yahweh God had not caused it to rain on the earth. There was not a man to till the ground, but a mist went up from the earth, and watered the whole surface of the ground,Yahweh God formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.Yahweh God planted a garden eastward, in Eden, and there he put the man whom he had formed.Out of the ground Yahweh God made every tree to grow that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the middle of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. A river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from there it was parted, and became four heads.The name of the first is Pishon: this is the one which flows through the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold; and the gold of that land is good. There is aromatic resin and the onyx stone.The name of the second river is Gihon: the same river that flows through the whole land of Cush. The name of the third river is Hiddekel: this is the one which flows in front of Assyria. The fourth river is the Euphrates.Yahweh God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.Yahweh God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it; for in the day that you eat of it you will surely die."Yahweh God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him." Out of the ground Yahweh God formed every animal of the field, and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. Whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name.The man gave names to all livestock, and to the birds of the sky, and to every animal of the field; but for man there was not found a helper suitable for him.Yahweh God caused a deep sleep to fall on the man, and he slept; and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. He made the rib, which Yahweh God had taken from the man, into a woman, and brought her to the man. The man said, "This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh. She will be called'woman,' because she was taken out of Man." Therefore a man will leave his father and his mother, and will join with his wife, and they will be one flesh.
And That's the second story.
Sappho
Nathan d wrote:
@ Sappho - I'm giving evidence. Your not. So please don't bash me.


What evidence? Bible? Hmm, i find it pointless to discuss anymore, too bad that i even returned to this thread. :/

To me Bible is like LOTR, good fantasy literature. BTW i dont believe in elves either. Wink
Nathan d
Quote:
The second story describes mankind taken out of the earth before any animals were created


Exacly! Before any animal was created. So we couldn't have evolved from monkeys!

Quote:
Yahweh God formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


'Formed' in Hebrew commonly refers to the work of a potter. That verse is talking about how god created something beautiful out of nothing.

Quote:

What evidence? Bible? Hmm,


Sappho... Please make sure you read the above posts. As I stated before the Bible has never been proven wrong. Therefore we must assume that the Bible is real. So yes, the Bible is my evidence. True and varified evidence.

Quote:
To me Bible is like LOTR, good fantasy literature. BTW i dont believe in elves either. Wink


That is your personal belief. Remember that LOTR is just a book recently written by a man named J.R.R. tolken who was trying to express his christion beliefs to his son(christopher tolken) thrue stories.
Sappho
Nathan d wrote:
Quote:

What evidence? Bible? Hmm,


Sappho... Please make sure you read the above posts. As I stated before the Bible has never been proven wrong. Therefore we must assume that the Bible is real. So yes, the Bible is my evidence. True and varified evidence.


If u cant prove something wrong it doesnt mean its true. Wink

Nathan d wrote:
Quote:
To me Bible is like LOTR, good fantasy literature. BTW i dont believe in elves either. Wink


That is your personal belief. Remember that LOTR is just a book recently written by a man named J.R.R. tolken who was trying to express his christion beliefs to his son(christopher tolken) thrue stories.


Yes, and i said "TO ME BIBLE..." so i am not trying to say it as objective truth, just my humble subjective opinion. Wink

PS.: It was Tolkien not Tolken.
Nathan d
Quote:
If u cant prove something wrong it doesnt mean its true. Wink


Yes.. But it means that it is much more likely to be true, then something that has been proven wrong.

There's also a lot of evidence that the bible is true(other then the fact that it has never been proven wrong).
Nathan d
@ everyone - Here's some evidence:

Quote:
How Do You Know The Bible Is True?
aqua bar
left margin
Starting the Foundation

Proving whether something is true or not is called apologetics. This word is derived from the Greek word “apologia,” which means “to defend.” The entire Clarifying Christianity site is filled with apologetics—proofs and explanations for many Christian-related issues. The focus of this page is the proof supporting the accuracy of the Bible. After all, if the Bible is not true or if it is filled with errors, Christianity would only be a “blind faith”—something people believe without any evidence to support it.

However, Christianity is not a blind faith. It is the only religion that can prove itself, and a main source of that proof is the Bible. Although it is becoming less common, there are still people who tell others that they follow Christianity “because it feels right” (or use wording like that). This is unfortunate, since there is a lot of evidence supporting Christianity. The existence of all that evidence is one reason we started this site. We want people to learn about the solid evidence that supports their faith, and have a place that collected that evidence so they can show it to others.

By the way, if you would like some reference materials that are a little more portable than a computer with an Internet connection, a book we recommend is Know Why You Believe by Paul Little. This book is available in larger bookstores and most Christian bookstores. Also, the Tucson Community Church recorded a seminar called “Knowing The Facts Behind The Faith.” It is available on DVD and VHS video (NTSC format). If you are interested in purchasing a copy, you can get one directly from the church that produces them at the Tucson Community Church website. They also handle international orders.
The Proof of Science

There is a great deal of scientific evidence that supports the Bible. Enough that we have a separate page to discuss this proof alone. If you would like to see our science page, click on this sentence.
The Proof of Prophecy

One of the strongest arguments for the accuracy of the Bible is its 100% accuracy in predicting the future. These future predictions are called “prophecies.” The Old Testament was written between approximately 1450 BC and 430 BC. During that time, many predictions of the future were recorded in the Bible by God’s prophets. Of the events that were to have taken place by now, every one happened just the way they predicted it would. No other “sacred writing” has such perfectly accurate predictions of the future.
One Type—The Messianic Prophecies

Of these prophecies, the most striking examples are the predictions about an “anointed one” (“Messiah” in Hebrew) who was to arrive in the future. About 4 BC, a miraculous event occurred—a boy named Jesus was born to a virgin named Mary. You can read His story in the book of Luke. Starting at age 30, Jesus fulfilled more and more of these prophecies written about the Messiah. His fulfillment of these prophecies was very spectacular: Jesus gave sight to the blind, made the lame walk, cured those who had leprosy, gave the deaf hearing, and raised people from the dead! These miracles and others were done many times in front of thousands of witnesses for three years. About 30 AD, Jesus was crucified (a prophecy) and died (a prophecy). Three days later he rose from the dead (another prophecy), after which He was seen by over 500 witnesses. Since these prophecies were written down at least 400 years before they happened, there is no doubt that the Bible’s writers were inspired supernaturally—by God. To examine these prophecies yourself, click on the link below.

aqua ball The Messianic Prophecies
A Second Type—Fulfilled Prophecy Dealing With Nations

There are many prophecies that can be proven through archaeology, especially prophecy dealing with entire nations. Typically, when God declared judgment on a nation, He would send a prophet to announce to the citizens why He was judging them and what He was going to do to them if they continued their evil behavior. On occasion, God would also tell the citizens how He would reward them if they started doing what was right. The book of Jonah records a case where the very evil Assyrians stopped doing what was evil as a result of Jonah’s short prophecy. This is what God wanted, and God did not punish them as a result of their change of heart. However, most often the people would jeer at God’s prophet and continue their bad behavior—later becoming recipients of the exact punishment that God threatened.

Like other prophecy recorded in the Bible, these predictions support the supernatural inspiration of the Bible. The prophecies recorded in the Bible came true in such a detailed way that they could not have been predicted by chance. Further, archaeologists have evidence that these prophecies were written down many years before they were fulfilled, proving that they were not falsified documents claiming to be prophecies that came true. (The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls stopped the majority of that talk.) Although an entire web site could be filled with this information, we will provide one example—the foretelling of the destruction of Edom and its capital city of Petra.

aqua ball Click here for an example of fulfilled prophecy dealing with nations
The Proof of Textual Evidence

Both the Old and New Testaments are strongly supported by manuscript evidence (the evidence of early hand written copies). The famous Dead Sea Scrolls are one example of the Old Testament evidence. These documents came from the “library” of a settlement founded at Qumran before 150 B.C. and abandoned about 68 A.D. Some of the manuscript copies were made during that period, and some were written earlier (third century BC) and brought to the settlement. Ignoring spelling-oriented (orthographic) changes and similar small differences, the Dead Sea Scrolls match the Hebrew text behind today’s Old Testament, in spite of the passage of over 2,000 years (where one would expect errors to creep in).

Over 20,000 known manuscripts document the New Testament text. This makes the New Testament the most reliable document of antiquity (a document written before the printing press). These manuscripts vary in size from a part of a page to an entire Bible (Old and New Testaments). The earliest New Testament manuscripts date from the second century (100-199) AD These manuscript copies were written in different languages by people of different nationalities, cultures, and backgrounds. In spite of all those differences between them, the New Testament texts all agree. (That is, those differences that we do observe between these hand written documents are occasional changes in the spelling of names or isolated cases of missing or changed words. Still, since we have so many copies, it is obvious to anyone but the hardened skeptic can that they all represent the same text.)

Note: Those minor differences that do exist between the Old and New Testament manuscripts are interesting for academic reasons. They are the topic of a future “in depth” Clarifying Christianity page. (It is currently about 10,000 words long and still under construction—stay tuned.)

The Proof of People Living at the Time of Christ

Special proof exists for the New Testament, since Christians were strongly persecuted by both the Jews and the Roman government. If the New Testament writings were false, these two groups would have produced a great deal of evidence to stop the growth of this “sect.” None exists. Further, the New Testament writings (before they were assembled into the “book” we call the New Testament) circulated during the lifetimes of thousands of people who had actually seen Jesus’ miracles and other historic events. No one ever refuted the New Testament writings as “fairy tales.”
The Proof of Historians

Secular history supports the Bible. For example, in The Antiquities of the Jews, book 18, chapter 3, paragraph 3 the famous historian Flavius Josephus writes:

“Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works—a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.”

In 115 AD, P. Cornelius Tacitus wrote the following passage that refers to Jesus (called “Christus,” which means “The Messiah”) in book 15, chapter 44 of The Annals:

“Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.”
Nathan d
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There have been hundreds of books written on the subject of the evidences of the divine inspiration of the Bible, and these evidences are many and varied. Most people today, unfortunately, have not read any of these books. In fact, few have even read the Bible itself! Thus, many people tend to go along with the popular delusion that the Bible is full of mistakes and is no longer relevant to our modern world.

Nevertheless the Bible writers claimed repeatedly that they were transmitting the very Word of God, infallible and authoritative in the highest degree. This is an amazing thing for any writer to say, and if the forty or so men who wrote the Scriptures were wrong in these claims, then they must have been lying, or insane, or both.

But, on the other hand, if the greatest and most influential book of the ages, containing the most beautiful literature and the most perfect moral code ever devised, was written by deceiving fanatics, thenwhat hope is there for ever finding meaning and purpose in this world?

If one will seriously investigate these Biblical evidences, he will find that their claims of divine inspiration (stated over 3,000 times, in various ways) were amply justified.

Fulfilled Prophecies

The remarkable evidence of fulfilled prophecy is just one case in point. Hundreds of Bible prophecies have been fulfilled, specifically and meticulously, often long after the prophetic writer had passed away.

For example, Daniel the prophet predicted in about 538 BC (Daniel 9:24-27) that Christ would come as Israel's promised Savior and Prince 483 years after the Persian emperor would give the Jews authority to rebuild Jerusalem, which was then in ruins. This was clearly and definitely fulfilled, hundreds of years later.

There are extensive prophecies dealing with individual nations and cities and with the course of history in general, all of which have been literally fulfilled. More than 300 prophecies were fulfilled by Christ Himself at His first coming. Other prophecies deal with the spread of Christianity, as well as various false religions, and many other subjects.

There is no other book, ancient or modern, like this. The vague, and usually erroneous, prophecies of people like Jeanne Dixon, Nostradamus, Edgar Cayce, and others like them are not in the same category at all, and neither are other religious books such as the Koran, the Confucian Analects, and similar religious writings. Only the Bible manifests this remarkable prophetic evidence, and it does so on such a tremendous scale as to render completely absurd any explanation other than divine revelation.

Unique Historical Accuracy

Ebla Tablet. Courtesy of Associates for Biblical Research.
Learn more about Archaeology and the Bible

The historical accuracy of the Scriptures is likewise in a class by itself, far superior to the written records of Egypt, Assyria, and other early nations. Archeological confirmations of the Biblical record have been almost innumerable in the last century. Dr. Nelson Glueck, probably the greatest modern authority on Israeli archeology, has said:

"No archeological discovery has ever controverted a Biblical reference. Scores of archeological findings have been made which confirm in clear outline or in exact detail historical statements in the Bible. And, by the same token, proper evaluation of Biblical descriptions has often led to amazing discoveries."

Scientific Accuracy

Another striking evidence of divine inspiration is found in the fact that many of the principles of modern science were recorded as facts of nature in the Bible long before scientist confirmed them experimentally. A sampling of these would include:

* Roundness of the earth (Isaiah 40:22)
* Almost infinite extent of the sidereal universe (Isaiah 55:9)
* Law of conservation of mass and energy (II Peter 3:7)
* Hydrologic cycle (Ecclesiastes 1:7)
* Vast number of stars (Jeremiah 33:22)
* Law of increasing entropy (Psalm 102:25-27)
* Paramount importance of blood in life processes (Leviticus 17:11)
* Atmospheric circulation (Ecclesiastes 1:6)
* Gravitational field (Job 26:7)
* and many others.

These are not stated in the technical jargon of modern science, of course, but in terms of the basic world of man's everyday experience; nevertheless, they are completely in accord with the most modern scientific facts.

It is significant also that no real mistake has ever been demonstrated in the Bible -- in science, in history, or in any other subject. Many have been claimed, of course, but conservative Bible scholars have always been able to work out reasonable solutions to all such problems.

Unique Structure

The remarkable structure of the Bible should also be stressed. Although it is a collection of 66 books, written by 40 or more different men over a period of 2,000 years, it is clearly one Book, with perfect unity and consistency throughout.

The individual writers, at the time of writing, had no idea that their message was eventually to be incorporated into such a Book, but each nevertheless fits perfectly into place and serves its own unique purpose as a component of the whole. Anyone who diligently studies the Bible will continually find remarkable structural and mathematical patterns woven throughout its fabric, with an intricacy and symmetry incapable of explanation by chance or collusion.

The one consistent theme of the Bible, developing in grandeur from Genesis to Revelation, is God's great work in the creation and redemption of all things, through His only Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Bible's Unique Effect

Discovering the Bible video curriculum
Discovering the Bible (video curriculum)
Highly Recommended!

The Bible is unique also in terms of its effect on individual men and on the history of nations. It is the all-time best seller, appealing both to hearts and minds, beloved by at least some in every race or nation or tribe to which it has gone, rich or poor, scholar or simple, king or commoner, men of literally every background and walk of life. No other book has ever held such universal appeal nor produced such lasting effects.

One final evidence that the Bible is true is found in the testimony of those who have believed it. Multitudes of people, past and present, have found from personal experience that its promises are true, its counsel is sound, its commands and restrictions are wise, and its wonderful message of salvation meets every need for both time and eternity.


Related information on this topic

*

When we say that the Bible is the Word of God, does that imply that it is completely accurate, or does it contain insignificant inaccuracies in details of history and science? Answer
*

How can the Bible be infallible if it is written by fallible humans? Answer
* Answers to supposed Bible "contradictions" and puzzles
* Is the Bible truth or tabloid? Answer
* INTERNAL HARMONY - Answers to a skeptic's questions about whether the Bible's internal harmony is truly evidence of its divine inspiration - Read
* Biblical prophecies
* Creation and science
* Bible archaeology
Nathan d
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s there any proof that the Bible is true?

To prove if the Bible is true, we don't need to look far. Hundreds of books with historical, scientific, and archeological data have supported the Bible's credibility. The studies for these truths are called apologetics.

Most people today, unfortunately, have not even read the Bible. As a result, many people tend to go along with the increasing delusion that the Bible is full of mistakes and no longer relevant to present times. Their searches have been from a surging atheistic desire to disprove the Bible.

Instead, thousands of investigative findings have led to confirmation of the exact details stated in the Bible. Historical, archeological, and scientific evidences alike have reinforced proof of Bible truths. Confirmations have been almost innumerable, particularly in this last century (i.e. the Dead Sea Scrolls, Red Sea Crossing site, etc).

Dr. Nelson Glueck, perhaps the utmost modern authority on Israeli archeology, said: "No archeological discovery has ever controverted a Biblical reference. Scores of archeological findings have been made which confirm in clear outline or in exact detail historical statements in the Bible. And, by the same token, proper evaluation of Biblical descriptions has often led to amazing discoveries."

The Word of God was penned by inspiration from the Creator long before scientists stamped their approval on experimental findings. But mankind tends to look at things from a skeptical or scientific, secular perspective when the facts have been in the Bible all along. A few examples of this include:

* The Earth is round, not flat as once believed (Isaiah 40:22).
* Atmospheric circulation (Ecclesiastes 1:6).
* Field of Gravity (Job 26:7).
* Biological importance of blood to life (Leviticus 17:11).

In addition, there are statements consistent with Paleontology. For instance, several books in the Bible refer to dinosaurs. Job 40:15 and 41:1 speak of two such creatures. And there are numerous verses referring to dragons. Yet mistakenly, some have thought dinosaurs and men did not exist at the same time.

An undisputable proof is the overwhelming 100% accuracy of Biblical prophecy. There are thousands of fulfilled prophecies including about the life, death, and resurrection of Christ. For example, one of the many Old Testament Messianic prophecies fulfilled by Jesus can be read in Isaiah 53. It describes the life of Jesus Christ 700 years before it happened! Keep in mind that all of the Holy Bible is God inspired and is His revelation of all truths!

Without reading the Bible, it is difficult to determine its truths. Spend time reading the Bible on a regular basis and search out for yourself what the Lord has already told us; it is rich with His loving design, wisdom, and sovereign power.

Keep Studying is the Bible True!
Nathan d
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Archaeological and Scientific Evidence

Bible ArchaeologyMore and more there is archaeological and scientific evidence proving the Bible is true. Some of the books above give information on what scientists are finding that proves the Creation Story, the Flood, Jesus, etc.

Because there are so many websites on Archaeology we have not taken the time to share all the discoveries that prove the validity of the Bible.

There is one thing we want to make clear regarding relics and artifacts that appear to defend the Bible. Not everything that is presented as real is real. We believe there are many hoaxes and false artifacts. For us, unless the artifact is found at an actual dig with a variety of witnesses, we do not accept the artifact as reliable. With the technology of today, individuals can create false relics. This said, there are plenty of reliable relics that even skeptics cannot deny.

There is an excellent site called Reasons To Believe that provides Answers to Skeptics. it is directed toward those who are more analytical, logical, and scientific oriented.

Evidence For God From Science
This site provides evidence for God's existence.

Archaeological Discoveries that confirm Biblical Accounts:
From the radio show "The Book and The Spade" by Gordon Govier and Keith Sohoville.
An inscription at a Roman theater in Caesarea Martima reading, "Pontius Pilate, prefect of Judea".

An inscription found in Northern Israel mentioning King David's dynasty. The inscription is the oldest reference to any Biblical figure outside the Bible.

The discovery of an ossuary, a stone box used for retaining bones of the deceased, inscribed with the name of Caiaphas, the high priest who presided over the trial of Jesus shortly before his crucifixion.

From the Jerusalem Christian Review
JERUSALEM - Israeli archeologists have uncovered a 1st century cave, in a suburb south of Jerusalem, which served as a tomb to a family of disciples of Jesus Christ.

The burial cave, carved in the mountainside, off the Kidron Valley, contained several coffins, with names engraved on their sides, as well as signs of the cross. These inscriptions identified the cave as the burial vault of the Barsabas family. This family is well known to us, since several of its members are mentioned in the book of Acts. The tomb remained hidden for nearly 2000 years.

Eminent Jerusalem Historian, Prof. Ory N. Mazar, states that "at least some members of this family were among the very first disciples of Christ."

Capernaum in the Bible
Great archaeological discoveries that confirm many statements about this city.
http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/capernaum.html

Good page on more proof of the validity of the Bible.


Archaeology and the Bible
Proof that archaeology has proven the reliability of the Bible, confirmed biblical events, confirmed burial sites

Historical Evidence That Proves the Bible

Biblical Archaeology Society

Reasons To Believe
Reasons To Believe is an international, interdenominational ministry established to communicate the uniquely factual basis for belief in the Bible as the wholly true Word of God and for personal faith in Jesus Christ. GREAT SITE for Spiritual Seekers or those wanting scientific evidence to prove the truths of the Bible.

Disclaimer-In His Steps Ministries does not endorse or agree with some of the doctrinal beliefs or teachings of sites that are recommended throughout our website. These sites are only given as additional resources that have some items that we find of value. We acknowledge that as in every other religion or belief system, there are individuals or organizations in Christianity that are 'flakey', 'off base', claim facts that are fiction, etc. Use wisdom and the intelligence that God has given you, even those of you who do not believe there is a God.

It should be noted that Christianity is a religion based upon relationship, not knowledge. It is a religion of faith not logic. The information provided is to help answer questions, but ultimately you must believe in the Bible by faith. Because of who God is, we will always have questions. In order to have eternal life, we need to believe the words of Jesus that we are sinners and are in need of a Lord and Savior.

How To Accept Christ
Nathan d
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Many spiritual seekers wonder why there is not more historical evidence to verify the birth, crucifixion, and resurrection of Jesus. Here is something to consider. There is no need for more evidence because the Holy Bible itself is historical evidence. he Old Testament has over 60 prophecies about Jesus that were fulfilled. The Bible has the Four Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) that document Jesus' life. The balance of the New Testament has references to Jesus. There are 66 books of the Bible. Almost every single book of the Bible has either a prophecy about Jesus or verses that point to the Gospel message. There are over 24,600 manuscripts of the New Testatment and over 24,000 original manuscripts of portions of the New Testament.

Why would there need to be more historical evidence? Because some would argue that the Bible can't be trusted, the manuscripts may not be trustworthy, or the Bible is not accurate. We will explore these concepts and prove the Validity of the Bible.


Bible Can Be Trusted
Some will argue that you can't trust the Bible because it was written by those who believed in God or Jesus. They will say that the authors were bias, so they did not write accurate information. If you were to use this argument regarding autobiographies, biographies, and history books (this is what the Bible is like), you would like to remove all these books off the library selves.

Autobiographies obviously have some bias because they are written by individuals about themselves. They certainly could misinterpret some of their experiences, but how many readers would toss out an autobiography as not a trustworthy book about the author? So, why toss out portions of scripture that are autobiographical?

Many biographies are written by people who loved the person they are writing about, but we do not question their validity. Yes, we may see some prejudices or favoritism in a biography, but we can overall trust most biographies, because if they were inaccurate there would be an uproar from others. So, why toss out portions of scripture that are biographical? Unless we have proof they are inaccurate, we need to give them the same trust we would a modern day biography.

There are certainly books about history written by those who have had prejudices. We see much more of that in recent years. But again, if someone was to write a very distorted view of something historical, don't we believe others would not be silent? However, regarding the history written in the Bible there was overall silence by those who were alive when the Bible manuscripts first appeared. It has only been in recent years that there has been a challenge to the historical validity of the Bible. What is interesting is that more and more there is archaeological proof to the historical accuracy of the Bible.

There is something that is unique about the Bible compared to any autobiography, biography, or history book - the Bible is the inspired, infallible Word of God. This means it was God breathed. The authors of the Bible wrote what God had them to write. Yes, they wrote with their style of writing, but the accuracy of what they wrote was based upon being inspired by God. We know, as a spiritual seeker you may not believe this. That is ok. We are going to provide more evidence for the Validity of the Bible.


Bible Manuscripts
Some would argue that the Bible can't be trusted because we do not know if the copies we have of the Bible are accurate, or if the original manuscripts are accurate.

To determine the accuracy of the manuscripts, we can compare the Bible manuscripts to manuscripts of other literature. If we are going to be fair, we should not require more of the Bible than we do other literature, but the Bible will hold up to even more scrutiny.

The chart below lists some documents, how many known original manuscripts, and the time span from the first known manuscript and when the document was authored.
Author No. of Copies Time Span
Caesar 10 1.000 years
Plato (Tetralogies) 7 1,200 years
Tacitus (Annals) 20 1,000 years
Pliny the Younger (History) 7 750 years
Suetonius (De Vita Caesarum) 8 800 years
Homer (Iliad) 643 500 years
New Testament Over 24,000 25 years

After looking at the chart above, which document do you believe is the most trustworthy in being accurate regarding being closest to the original? Homer's Iliad does not even come close to the New Testament. Time span is critical when determining if the manuscript is close to the original. The longer the time span, the more of a chance of error. The first New Testament manuscript has only a 25 year span compared to 500 years for Iliad. Yet many of our readers would read Iliad as the gospel before the Bible.

We should also mention that of the 24,000 New Testament manuscripts they are 15 different languages and they all are accurate in their translation.

Let's look at one more point regarding the accuracy of manuscripts. It is the concept of textual variations and textual corruption. We will compare Iliad with the New Testament. The Iliad has about 15,600 textual line variations compared to the New Testament which has about 20,000 textual line variations. Not bad considering there are over 23,000 more manuscripts of the New Testament than the Iliad.

The Iliad has 764 lines of textual corruption whereas the New Testament only has 40 lines of textual corruption. So, which is the more accurate document?

*This data is from "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" by Josh McDowell 1979. There is a newer edition of this book which probably has even more powerful proof of the validity of scripture. As time allows we will update this page, better yet, why not get the book and read it yourself.
Christian Books


Bible Not Accurate
Even with all the evidence we have provided, some will still say the Bible is not accurate.

Archaeology and Science is continuously proving the Bible to be accurate. Over and over again, archaeological digs are finding artifacts that prove the various stories that are in the Bible. Read More.

One of the ways to prove the Bible is accurate is to explore the concept of prophecy. There are over 60 prophecies in the Old Testament that speak about Jesus. Every one of the prophecies were fulfilled in the life of Jesus.

There are also many prophecies in the Old Testament that have been fulfilled in history. Yes, there are some prophecies that have not been fulfilled. Some were conditional and the conditions were not met so they will never be fulfilled. Others are speaking of events yet in the future.

The Bible was written over a 1,500 year span so there is no way that many of these prophecies could have just been 'predicted' by the authors. There were over 40 authors so there is no way they could have conspired with each other.


Encyclopedia Britannica
So significant is Jesus in man's history that the Encyclopedia Britannica has 20,000 words in describing Jesus. His description took more space than was given to Aristotle, Cicero, Alexander, Julius Caesar, Buddha, Confucius, Mohammed or Napolean Bonaparte. Why would there be so much material on a man who was never born? The Encyclopedia Britannica does not state as fact the crucifixion or resurrection of Jesus, but there is no doubt in this document regarding the validity of the Bible regarding there was a Jesus of Nazareth who was the founder of the Christian faith.

Here is a quote from the Encyclopedia Britannica concerning the testimony of the many independent secular accounts of Jesus of Nazareth:
These independent accounts prove that in ancient times even the opponents of Christianity never doubted the historicity of Jesus, which was disputed for the first time and on inadequate grounds by several authors at the end of the 18th, during the 19th, and at the beginning of the 20th centuries.

Jesus is recorded as a fact, as is His death, burial and missing body in the Reader's Digest Book of Facts, 1989.



There are several books that cover this subject matter. They have much documented evidence to prove the validity of the Bible.

It should be noted that Christianity is a religion based upon relationship, not knowledge. It is a religion of faith not logic. The information provided is to help answer questions, but ultimately you must believe in the gospel accounts of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ because you believe in the claims of Jesus that we are sinners and we need a savior.


- sorry if the formatting isn't right.
Nathan d
Read those and tell me there's no evidence!
Mithrandir
All religous opinons and beliefs aside here's what I think: As a devout Catholic I have a strong belief in God and there a tons of people who would call me down as a sinner, heretic, idiot, mindless, what-have-you simply for being Christian much less for being Catholic. I sit back and do as my God tells me, that is to be better than those people and respect what they beleive even if they don't respect me. As a Christian I just want to point out to those who have no religion or are of other religions that not all the followers of Christ are like the guy who started this thread. Breaking with my policy of repsect, I must say that he is a relgious extremist preaching fire and brimstone. He is by no means a reflection of the Christian community as a whole and I ask that you don't take his example and judge the rest of us more refined Christians along with him.
Sappho
@nathan d: Sorry to bother but its against the rules to copy paste from other sources Confused Next time pls post the links instead. So here are the links u copy pasted:
http://www.allabouttruth.org/bible-is-true-faq.htm
http://www.creatingfutures.net/archaelogical.html
http://www.creatingfutures.net/validity.html

Just an advice to the future Wink Or atleast quote em so we know its from other sources.
storken
i dont really go to church or belive in the bible but i am still christian.

one thing is cairtain and that is that all religions wants to control you in one or another way.

but todays generation of youngsters dont belive in god and so on so the only reason for having a religion is simply for no to bee whitout one (i think)
Nathan d
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and I ask that you don't take his example and judge the rest of us more refined Christians along with him.


By "us more refined Christians" you mean those don't preach the gospel.
Nathan d
@ Sappho - Thanks for the heads up. I thought there were referances to the site they were from in the posts.

Here are some more links I used.
http://www.creatingfutures.net/evidence.html
http://www.allabouttruth.org/bible-is-true-faq.htm
http://www.creatingfutures.net/archaelogical.html
http://www.creatingfutures.net/validity.html
http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/b_proof.shtml
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t003.html

These are very good websites that really explain a lot of stuff.

@storken - Christianity is... based upon the Bible.[/url]
Sizzle
There is a God. It can be proven logically. Let's consider there are no ties for 1st place.

In terms of measurement, there is long, longer and longest right?
Only one can be the longest right? You cannot have 2 that are the longests; only one.

In terms of light, there is bright, brighter and brightest right?
Only one can be the brightest right? You cannot have 2 that are the brightest, only one.

In terms of beings, there are beings, superiour beings and a supreme being. In this instance we believe God (or our idea of one) to be the supreme being.

When creation is discussed, who else could have "pushed the button" to get everything started?

Evolution: It happened- in fact it is happening right now...

Now everything since the beginning of observed history, everything we have witnessed as humans, written down and changed for our own benefit I don't trust because it is the work of humans. I grew up a Christian and will always be one, but for me, I trust in the Lord- that doesn't mean I have to believe in people when it comes to spiritual matters.

Trust in yours, whomever that may be and in the manner that you do so. Life is precious- please- no violence- no killing- There are enough of us dying daily due to natural causes. Humankind needs to pull together to find a way to live offworld- the Earth will not be around forever. Why should be continue to treat all issues by waiting until the last minute (or in this case- decade, century or millenium)?
Lennon
Yes, at this stage we have enough information to make an informative decision about our relation to God. We have a strong case for both sides. Do we treat this as a debate, evangilisation, open or close minded discussion.

Note there is still a big element of doubt about God's existence which can never really be explained. If you like the DaVinci Code you might think it has logic. In the same way religion seems to have logic, since it defines a pattern in nature and society that resembles a God, but like the story do you believe it. Or since I'm a Catholic and the DaVinci Code offends our faith, does the Bible have a story or a logical pattern. So we have blind faith where there is doubt, and we have reasoned faith in God that makes sense when you look at the pattern.
Mithrandir
Nathan d wrote:
Quote:
and I ask that you don't take his example and judge the rest of us more refined Christians along with him.


By "us more refined Christians" you mean those don't preach the gospel.


No, I mean those who don't press their beliefs on others. Those who accept others for who they choose to be.
Jeslyn
Mithrandir wrote:
Nathan d wrote:
Quote:
and I ask that you don't take his example and judge the rest of us more refined Christians along with him.


By "us more refined Christians" you mean those don't preach the gospel.


No, I mean those who don't press their beliefs on others. Those who accept others for who they choose to be.


Oddly enough, there are just as many atheists, who are pressing their beliefs on monotheists and polytheists, (not just Christians). There are a few threads on here doing just that...
Nathan d
I'm not trying to press my beliefs on anyone. I'm simply giving evidence that supports my beliefs.
Soulfire
When we, as Christians, "press our beliefs on you," we are trying to save you from Hell. We don't want you to burn in the lake of fire for eternity, we want you to enjoy everlasting life in Heaven with God.

And by being atheist you automatically lose. You believe that after death there is nothing.

Why not believe something? That way when it is true, you go to Heaven. If by some far off (I stress far off) chance it is not true, then you lost nothing by believing, and lived a life that taught you to love each other as you want to be loved.
shadedflame
Why why would we hate something that we made uP? The human race has been creating imaginary friends for thousands of years, When I was 3 I thought my imaginary friend actually existed, until I learned that my mind is sooo powerful, that it can create images and illusions, that seem real, like reality, your god, your belief is just a way for you to cope with the idea that you do not know were you came from. We all want to know, but instead of devolping a scientific solution, people invented the idea of a god or creator to 1. Find a way to control people actions by giving the the alternative of an afterlife which can be good or bad.
2. A young child, usually a lonely one, creates an imaginary friend because he knows not whats out there and the idea of having someone there right beside him is comforting enough to help him get through the day withought feeling sad.
#2 is how your god comes into play, you believe in him because this idea was imbedded into your brain by centuries of malpractice. Every religous group has thier own "imaginary friend" that helps them cope with the fact that we don't know how life was created or what happens to us when we die, we don't want to think of nothingness, so the idea of puffy clouds and eternal bliss, givesus something to look forward too.

end of message.
shadedflame
Soulfire wrote:
When we, as Christians, "press our beliefs on you," we are trying to save you from Hell. We don't want you to burn in the lake of fire for eternity, we want you to enjoy everlasting life in Heaven with God.

And by being atheist you automatically lose. You believe that after death there is nothing.

Why not believe something? That way when it is true, you go to Heaven. If by some far off (I stress far off) chance it is not true, then you lost nothing by believing, and lived a life that taught you to love each other as you want to be loved.

Hell is something christains use to impose thier beleifs upon others, but the only fiery pit beneath the earth, is its core. And think about the jews for a second, they have no concept of hell, thier sheer idea of satan, from the old testament, says that he is a mistchief maker, like that of Loki, from norse religion, and the idea of god, is just a shadow of oden, also from norse, I do believe the jews made up the idea of jesus from the idea of balder, son of oden that died by the hands of loki, only to be reborun after ragnarok, or the apocolypse as christians call it.
earthchild
ahem. not that anybody really cares but I don't belong to any religion in particular (mainly beacuse I've had the privilege of being exposed to so many) and I certainly love God just the same (maybe more who knows?).

no doubt about it God rocks. Smile

and I don't care what you want to call 'God'... be it
God
Goddess
the Universe
Om
All that is
Love
Allah
etc...

It's all the same to me, and it all rocks.
Mithrandir
Soulfire wrote:
When we, as Christians, "press our beliefs on you," we are trying to save you from Hell. We don't want you to burn in the lake of fire for eternity, we want you to enjoy everlasting life in Heaven with God.


Just so you know, I don't need you to save me from Hell. I'm doing a fine job of it myself, thank you. You can't save people from Hell, only God can do that. It is unfair and immoral for you to think that you are superior to the rest of the religious world simply because you've misinterpreted God's intentions. We are all God's children and we should be treated as such.
Nathan d
You say we made god up?! I guess nobody reads the above posts! The bible has been proven to be true! The bible talks about God. If the bible is true then so is God. You’re not putting the pieces of the puzzle together! Do some research on your own, I'm telling you if you Google for "scientific evidence that the bible is true" you will get an overwhelming number of sites that have proven that the bible is real. Now all you have to do is see for yourself.
shadedflame
Nathan d wrote:
You say we made god up?! I guess nobody reads the above posts! The bible has been proven to be true! The bible talks about God. If the bible is true then so is God. You’re not putting the pieces of the puzzle together! Do some research on your own, I'm telling you if you Google for "scientific evidence that the bible is true" you will get an overwhelming number of sites that have proven that the bible is real. Now all you have to do is see for yourself.
uhhh no, people making light out of nowhere, you can't just create atoms, matter can't be destroyed only changed. People Making rivers split...yeah right...Bush fires spitting out tablets hell no
Mason11987
Nathan d wrote:
You say we made god up?! I guess nobody reads the above posts! The bible has been proven to be true! The bible talks about God. If the bible is true then so is God. You’re not putting the pieces of the puzzle together! Do some research on your own, I'm telling you if you Google for "scientific evidence that the bible is true" you will get an overwhelming number of sites that have proven that the bible is real. Now all you have to do is see for yourself.


The bible has fallicies, it isn't perfection, it isn't gods word, it has errors. Therefore it can't be assumed to be infallible. While the very fact that the sun is second generation shoots to hell any concept of the universe NOT being billions of years old. It is SO simple, and so clear...
tidruG
Soulfire wrote:
When we, as Christians, "press our beliefs on you," we are trying to save you from Hell. We don't want you to burn in the lake of fire for eternity, we want you to enjoy everlasting life in Heaven with God.

So it's OK for Christians to "try and save us from Hel", but it's an outrage when Muslims tell you to convert or die? Sure, they do it more directly, but even if subtly, the Christians are telling me that I shoudl convert or face certain Hell, then it's just as bad if not worse... Heaven or Hell is a state of eternity. At least we know that even if we refuse to convert to Islam, we will only die in this life (and probably go to Heaven), but to be damned for eternity? Hmm....

By the way, I, in no way, support Muslims forcing Islam on you... just as I condemn having any other religion forced onto me.

@earthchild, good post. I agree with you, and that's exactly what I've been trying to say... I believe in God and love God, so why should I have to conform to a set of predefined rules to live myself for God? "I have nothing against God... I'm just thoroughly annoyed by his fan following" Wink

Soulfire wrote:
Why not believe something? That way when it is true, you go to Heaven. If by some far off (I stress far off) chance it is not true, then you lost nothing by believing, and lived a life that taught you to love each other as you want to be loved.

Is it only the Christians who believe in Heaven? I mean, I'm not a Christian, but I believe in Heaven nonetheless... My point is that you don't need to be a Christian and believe only in the Christian God to believe in Heaven and to reach God.

Nathan d wrote:
The bible has been around a long time, and it has NEVER been proven wrong. That alone is enough evidence to back up Christianity.

Quote:
1 Chronicles 16:30: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.”

Psalm 93:1: “Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ...”

Psalm 96:10: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ...”

Psalm 104:5: “Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.”

Isaiah 45:18: “...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast...”

Oops! Looks like the Earth is not quite so firm... heliocentricity is how our solar system runs.

Soulfire wrote:
bent the truth to make it fit

First the church rejected the Big Bang... then, as it gained more support, they decided to throw in an Intelligent Design to make it fit in with God?.... hmm.... Wink

@Nathan, the Bible has been updated and changed many many times... do you wonder why? Maybe because there were some errors in it, or some updates that needed to be incorporated to keep the Bible up to date with the latest scientific discoveries?

@Nathan.... Please use the quote tags when copying and pasting from other sites. I just had to edit all those posts and put all the text in quote tags manually. Mad

Also, I highly recommend that instead of copying and pasting pages after pages, it'd be much easier and neater if you just posted links to your information.

@Sizzle and Mithrandir, nice posts. I enjoyed reading both.
KRONIC
wassup, well i would just like to say that i beleive that there is a god. i am not a religious person, i dont go to church and pray and stuff but i do beleive that there us a god, although at most times i feel that the world is against me man and i juss feel to cuss and drink rum and get drunk but then you have to keep god in mind or you will loose it!!

most of the times i feel that god is really unfair to me in my life cause everything seems to be going wrong in my f u c k i n g life man. but nevertheless i still try to keep him in mind. so to all you non beleivers out there, there is a god, although you relly cant see him or it may seem that he does nothing in your life or makes no difference in your life..he is there!! just have faith Cool
Monkeydog
I didn't read this whole topic, may do so sonn...but

I do not hate god, I beileve he could exist, but I also has a strong sense he doesn't exist. I can not be sure, no one can.

I read the topic creators post, and he is stupidly combining God and Christinanity. If you don't follow the Christian relgion, do you not beileve in god now?
I do not like religion, since I like to beileve in what I want to beileve in, spirtually. Most religions pretty much limit you to this, since you have to follow others, which I quite hate.
Another reason why I hate religion, are because of people like you. Close minded fools. Just because I don't beilve the same stuff as you, makes my opinions and ideas invalid, since I'm must be so stupid, or something. It's very, very, annoying, and not really shows the strongest point in character for you.

I could talk more, or say things better...but...lazy.
Disco_Dance_monkey
ooooh oooh oooh - I have a joke...

Okay, Jesus is hanging on the cross, and below him are two Clingons.

1st Clingon - "They say this is a great man"
2nd Clingon - "How great could he be? I mean, how much has he published?"
tefa_taftaf2010
ok hate ur GOD ( so hate ur religion of course )
So why u live ??
when u be depressed .. when u be lost in this world
for whom u resorted to ?? Exclamation
u can't be imposed to certain religion ??
but we must find our way to GOD .. our way to belonging. .to be deserved this life ...

i can'y hate my GOD i live by GOD's arrangement
when i be a lone , lost i ask my GOD from my heart to save me
and to protect me .. from our heart
so GOD respond to our call.. Smile

thanks on this topic ... leave u with GOD protection
Nathan d
I getting kind of tired of this thread! How about this: instead of pointless arguing about whether or not the bible is real... is there or is there not a god... etc. Why don't we post scientific facts?! Not stupid things like "The Big Bang... Not ridicules theories... just proven facts? I've already posted facts in other posts, now it's you guys' turn!
Disco_Dance_monkey
Thanx tefa_taftaf2010 for the much needed cryptic response! Very Happy

and yes, I would like to purchase some 'GOD protection'
a.Bird
tefa_taftaf2010 wrote:
ok hate ur GOD ( so hate ur religion of course )
So why u live ??
when u be depressed .. when u be lost in this world
for whom u resorted to ?? Exclamation
u can't be imposed to certain religion ??
but we must find our way to GOD .. our way to belonging. .to be deserved this life ...

i can'y hate my GOD i live by GOD's arrangement
when i be a lone , lost i ask my GOD from my heart to save me
and to protect me .. from our heart
so GOD respond to our call.. Smile

thanks on this topic ... leave u with GOD protection


well I, for one, don't like to live false hopes. i'd rather be 100 percent sure of what i believe in without having to be told by someone else who goes purely on faith. in fact, i think i'd be more lost in this world if i relied on God and he didn't answer my prayers. if i believe that he doesn't exist and only base my judgement on science, i am more sure of where i fit in this universe.
benwhite
The whole point of belief in god is that its a matter of faith. If you have to really on crappy (and not necessarily true) proofs for why the Bible is correct than you're seriously missing the point.

If God is fact and his existence is undeniable, then what importance does faith have? does religion have?

Rather, the existence of God and the belief in God are choices given by God himself. Out of the ten commandments, how many have to do with being a good person and how have to do with believing in God. Do the math. When he destroys Sodom and Gemorrah, it is because the people are wicked. Or when the flood comes. It's not because the people were all gentiles, it was because they were immoral.

If we look at the chapter Lekh Lekho in Genesis, we see God tell Abraham that he blesses Abraham, his children, and even anyone who blesses his children. If God in the old Testament consents to blessing those who bless the Jews (regardless of their religion or even their belief) , then who are we to judge whether or not a person goes to hell? More importantly, how is our responsibility for their souls? Religion and faith are internalized decisions and beliefs. There's a reason why God tells us to worry about our own spiritual debts instead of pointing out other people's flaws.

The whole point is that there is absolutely no reason to tell people who don't believe that (1) they're wrong and they're going to hell and (2) to try to find proofs that aren't there for why one should believe. One should believe because one feels the desire to, because one has love for God and his work, etc etc.

If you believe, good for you for having faith. If you don't, that's your choice, and that's the way it's supposed to be.
Dan77
a.Bird wrote:

well I, for one, don't like to live false hopes. i'd rather be 100 percent sure of what i believe in without having to be told by someone else who goes purely on faith. in fact, i think i'd be more lost in this world if i relied on God and he didn't answer my prayers. if i believe that he doesn't exist and only base my judgement on science, i am more sure of where i fit in this universe.


OK, give me one scientific fact that tells us our place in the universe. I bet you can't, they are all just theories. There are no scientific facts concerning who we are or why we are here.

I challenge anyone to come up with just one FACT.

The only FACT is, you must choose to believe something. Whether it is belief in God, Evolution or whatever it is still just a belief. Why do you think it is called "Darwin's Theory of Evolution" and "The Big Bang Theory"

It's because none of these things have been proven, they are just something you choose to believe or not, just like religion.

It sure makes me laugh when I see the believers in science moking the believers in God because they can't prove he exists, yet they themselves hold to a belief system that hasn't been proven.

Many people seem to think that because science can prove many things that it can prove anything. They obviously don't know much about science, as most scientific theory is eventually disproved and only a very small percentage actually turns out to be correct and proven.

Science can tell us quite a lot about the world around us, but very little about where it came from or where we came from so stop kidding yourselves that it can.
Lennon
I wouldn't blame Nathan d for getting tired of this. After so much posting there's not much you can do.

After years of trying to explain God to atheists, I felt that only facts are relevant, but facts can be interpretated in many different ways and there are no facts out there really that explain God's presence. The next best thing is theories, such as scientific theories and Bible interpretations, which are 99.99% credible if you understand them to the full extent.
shadedflame
There are no scientific facts that prove the bible is real I shall now Kill every 'scientifc evidence' that you have obtained.
1. The great flood did happen because of The fish fossils on The mountains!
Uhh No, The continets constantly move on things called tectonic plates, and if they collide land rises from the earth, usually out of the sea, since there is usually no land in the middle of an ocean.
2. What about those chariots in the red seas, moses parted it and then all of those egyptions got swallowed up!
Again no, When taking a boat across the red sea sometimes you might start to sink, or a horse might dies, so you know what they did? They threw them off the boat and into the water to prevent diseases and lost lives.
3. Evolution is just a theory with no evidence to SUpport it. or God created everything as it is now.
Dinosaurs and fossils, nuff said.
4. Countless miracles prove the existance of god.
A miracle can be anything, getting an A on my next exam could be a miracle to some, but was it was because of your imaginary friend, no It was because I studied hard. Your mother survived breats cancer? Its a miracle huh? no her docters just worked hard to preserve her life. You should have renewed faith in them not god.
shadedflame
Dan77 wrote:
a.Bird wrote:

well I, for one, don't like to live false hopes. i'd rather be 100 percent sure of what i believe in without having to be told by someone else who goes purely on faith. in fact, i think i'd be more lost in this world if i relied on God and he didn't answer my prayers. if i believe that he doesn't exist and only base my judgement on science, i am more sure of where i fit in this universe.


OK, give me one scientific fact that tells us our place in the universe. I bet you can't, they are all just theories. There are no scientific facts concerning who we are or why we are here.

I challenge anyone to come up with just one FACT.

The only FACT is, you must choose to believe something. Whether it is belief in God, Evolution or whatever it is still just a belief. Why do you think it is called "Darwin's Theory of Evolution" and "The Big Bang Theory"

It's because none of these things have been proven, they are just something you choose to believe or not, just like religion.

It sure makes me laugh when I see the believers in science moking the believers in God because they can't prove he exists, yet they themselves hold to a belief system that hasn't been proven.

Many people seem to think that because science can prove many things that it can prove anything. They obviously don't know much about science, as most scientific theory is eventually disproved and only a very small percentage actually turns out to be correct and proven.

Science can tell us quite a lot about the world around us, but very little about where it came from or where we came from so stop kidding yourselves that it can.

Darwin died a loong time ago, In his time it was a theory but now its a proven fact, animals are constantly evolving to meet thier needs, if you own a canary, you should know that 300 years ago, it was a finch, but it evolved to meet its needs, the cardnal is another example of a finch evolutionary stage.
Nisk
Wink Now my opinion is that a religion should be private, EVERYONE should have a religion should they wish to. I am against massive worships and "Holy" wars. Religion should be kept to one's self and not shared with everyone else. ( reason 1 why i dont like church) And children shouldn be brought up to worship any god. It is their choice if they want to find out more about god, religion and the like, or tell to f*** off with this nonsense. Our religion shouldn't affect anyone's but our own decision in this life. Parent's should bring up their children without any religion ( one and ONLY good thing about Comunism). I am not religious, but i do believe there is higher beings than ourselves ( like god).

P.S.: I am strongly Capitalist about EVERITHING else. If u want to find out more reasons why i hate Church just ask! Wink
shadedflame
Nisk wrote:
Wink Now my opinion is that a religion should be private, EVERYONE should have a religion should they wish to. I am against massive worships and "Holy" wars. Religion should be kept to one's self and not shared with everyone else. ( reason 1 why i dont like church) And children shouldn be brought up to worship any god. It is their choice if they want to find out more about god, religion and the like, or tell to f*** off with this nonsense. Our religion shouldn't affect anyone's but our own decision in this life. Parent's should bring up their children without any religion ( one and ONLY good thing about Comunism). I am not religious, but i do believe there is higher beings than ourselves ( like god).

P.S.: I am strongly Capitalist about EVERITHING else. If u want to find out more reasons why i hate Church just ask! Wink

YAY someone who made sense!
gasp and its a capatalist! YAY! and I do agree thats one of the highlights of communism....
benwhite
Believing in God is great...but don't say evolution has no supporting evidence by citing dinosaurs and fossils....geez.

That's like something whose never read the bible trying to cite facts about why it's wrong. They have no idea what they're even referring to.
Lennon
shadedflame wrote:
There are no scientific facts that prove the bible is real I shall now Kill every 'scientifc evidence' that you have obtained.
1. The great flood did happen because of The fish fossils on The mountains!
Uhh No, The continets constantly move on things called tectonic plates, and if they collide land rises from the earth, usually out of the sea, since there is usually no land in the middle of an ocean.
You can't say no, just maybe. We just don't know what happened. There's two types of plates, continental and oceanic, both different. And the flood could have formed those mountains. Continental shouldn't normally rise out of the sea by the way, it should be above ocean level (unless you try to use loopholes like the continental shelf under the ocean).
shadedflame wrote:
2. What about those chariots in the red seas, moses parted it and then all of those egyptions got swallowed up!
Again no, When taking a boat across the red sea sometimes you might start to sink, or a horse might dies, so you know what they did? They threw them off the boat and into the water to prevent diseases and lost lives..
You can't say no, just maybe. We just don't know what happened.
shadedflame wrote:

3. Evolution is just a theory with no evidence to SUpport it. or God created everything as it is now.
Dinosaurs and fossils, nuff said.
Dinosaurs could have been wiped out by the flood, and the geographic layers which age them as settling sedimentation process taking millions of years old could have been formed in just a few years in a global flood with lateral flow sedimentation, hence the fossils are really much younger.
shadedflame wrote:
4. Countless miracles prove the existance of god.
A miracle can be anything, getting an A on my next exam could be a miracle to some, but was it was because of your imaginary friend, no It was because I studied hard. Your mother survived breats cancer? Its a miracle huh? no her docters just worked hard to preserve her life. You should have renewed faith in them not god.
Even doctors and professional experts recognise miracles as beyond logical reasoning for science to explain it.
Arnie
Roflcopter, this sounds like the so-manieth carbon copy of the religion vs science topic. They already merged 2, and here we go again.

Anyway Nisk, I sure hope you don't visit concerts.
hangnhu
I only read the first page and was rather displease with few people so I'm going to answer them,

nam_siddharth wrote:
You Europeans were too stupid to have a good religion, it is why you all accepted a religion fron asia (Jesus Christ was Asian). Today, you are deciding the future of the world.
Is it not a good example of evolution? Wink


I don't believe we're doing any such thing as deciding the future of the world without agreement from the remaining rich countries from the rest of the world. And if we do, it not like we're forcing anyone, all for the benefits of the world, isn't it?

By the way, we Europeans are stupid? Look who talking, such narrow minded person, wonder how on earth did you manage to come up with that statement? Wonder how you become judge to such a statement?

IceCameron wrote:

I dont hate him, I just dont belive in him.
Im suprised how anyone can belive that there is some flying ghost who created us all. Its just... absurd. Completely insane!

I was talking to this priest at a local church who i hadn't met for years.
It was just after the tsunami. He was extremely happy, i asked him why.
His answer shook me. He said,
You know about the tsunami? Its so great! I have never seen such a miracle in my time!
I was so shocked i just gaped at him. Then he continued.
God is so great! Think of all the country's that have been brought together by this! Everybody helping each other.
Some might think he's just an positive-extremist?
I think its just gross!


God is a flying Ghost, I don't remember from any regilion if God was a flying ghost, if you know more about religion, any religion they all tells you that God is inside you, hence God is you. I guess a lot of people are displease with religion because you let others, such as the church lead you to one direction and you don't feel it the right way and that some odd inmortal created everything from nothing sound???? so when science prospect, you chose to turn to something more understanderble.

The tsunami, you think the priest is gross because like most of us realist people fines the scale of death a terrible thing, and if god did do something like this to bring the world together is even a worst thing. But as I take both science & religion side, I like to point out that everyone will die at some point or other, death should be expected by all of us, be it the next hour or after you're 60 or something. Basically the priest sees that God have chosen to scarify his some of his people to test the rest of his followers, whether they believe in him or not, to test their heart and compassion, and considering the result, the one world one globe united under compassion, was that not a good thing? think of the other outcome if the world didn't come together, their was certianly no promise that the world would.

I think whether we're science freak or god egoistic, we should all read Angel and Demon & DaVinci Code by Dan Brown, very good book, it help you to see science and religion another light.

science assist the materialise side of life, can't live without
religion assist the spiritual side of life, very much needed
darth_revan
if god existed, i'd worship... but there's no point in hating something that dont actually exist, or worship for...
Helios
Human is a multicellular organism.

Personally, I'm not attracted to worship something(or someone) I haven't even met and/or found something to admire him for.

Tell me, oh dear God, Who are you?
How come they say you know me, yet I don't know a single thing about you?
Am I too inferior? Who are you, God?
Xminor131
God, I would think, is not an entity but more a single idea that encompasses all that human thought and senses can be aware of. A human representation of the infinite whole of everything known.
To love and embrace this bares positive energy amongst human kind
To scorn and hate this bares a negative energy amongst human kind

Jesus, Buddah, Ghandi. my grandfather, all had wonderful ideas on things people can do to be a positive force.

Be cool and God will too. Cool
sterngate
There are so many stage in life. so many hate. even the one with the good knowledge of right and wrong are still trying to find the answers. But end up finding nothing! Don't judge me! Smile All i do is sit and live this way of life like you all do, i was born, getting old, getting sick, and decomposed. Well that's my body, don't talk about it.

Let feed that poor kid walking down that street, he have no family, no parents! who done it to him?

Ah, my body is decomposing, why can't i live more than 10000 years old?

Ah, i cry yesterday, and i'm a guy hehe.
make_life_better
Dan77 wrote:
OK, give me one scientific fact that tells us our place in the universe. I bet you can't, they are all just theories. There are no scientific facts concerning who we are or why we are here.

I challenge anyone to come up with just one FACT.


This starts slow and simple, so bear with me, but it needs to be grounded in everyday experience that is undeniable...

What will you agree is a fact? How about, "If I hold an apple off the floor or table and then let go, it will fall". Is this a fact? Experience says that it's quite a reliable prediction. But it's not science. Science requires more. The scientific principle requires you to develop an explanation as to why something happens (gravity in this case), and use that theory to make predictions about other experiments. So what if I use an orange or a ball? What if I drop it further? So far so good, but a good theory will also make some predictions that are not obvious - like the fact that things fall at the same speed whatever their weight, that things fall slower at the top of a tall building than at the bottom, etc. Putting things in orbit is a non-obvious prediction, but we see it around us and we believe. But science requires us to still look deeper. Why is there gravity? Where does mass come from? This is why science refers to theories, and still demands yet more evidence, and the level of evidence to "prove" something is pretty near impossible. Most non-scientists have no real comprehension of the level of evidence that is already there to support most widely held theories.

Extend the gravity example further, and it predicts that the moon is also in orbit around the earth, the earth around the sun, the sun orbiting around the galaxy centre, and so on. So there is one example of where we are in the universe, all by extrapolation from dropping an apple and deriving a robust explanation that makes reliable and robust predictions, even in surprising circumstances.

The same sort of argument also works for evolution, but the timescales are so long that any experiment to definitively support it would be impractically long and slow and/or unethical. Does that make it any less of a theory? No - it's just not so directly supported by everyday evidence that is undeniable to all, but the evidence is still there.

Compare that to the woeful excuses and stories that are so often quoted to support the truth of the bible or any other religion or god. These don't even begin to compare.

Sure Jesus existed - he was a person who walked the earth, and he was probably an amazing person too to have left such a huge impact on society and civilisation. But that is not the same as evidence for his divinity or any other deity.

Dan77 wrote:
The only FACT is, you must choose to believe something. Whether it is belief in God, Evolution or whatever it is still just a belief. Why do you think it is called "Darwin's Theory of Evolution" and "The Big Bang Theory"


No, I don't have to believe in anything. I have chosen to believe in science and evolution and many other things because the weight of evidence is overwhelming for me. I have never seen any good evidence for any god or any other religious or supernatural belief that does not have a number of other explanations that are perfectly plausible and which do not require any divine or supernatural involvement.

Dan77 wrote:
It's because none of these things have been proven, they are just something you choose to believe or not, just like religion.

It sure makes me laugh when I see the believers in science moking the believers in God because they can't prove he exists, yet they themselves hold to a belief system that hasn't been proven.

Many people seem to think that because science can prove many things that it can prove anything. They obviously don't know much about science, as most scientific theory is eventually disproved and only a very small percentage actually turns out to be correct and proven.


Yet again, this shows a simply staggering lack of understanding of what science is about. Every theory is set up as a possible or best current explanation of something inthe real world, in the expectation that somebody will hopefully disprove it and derive a still better theory. The fact that most scientific theories have been "disproved" is actually one of science's greatest strengths, because each has then been replaced by a better theory which fits the experimentally verifiable facts better, or works in more cases, or makes better predictions for new experiments. Very few real scientists ever use the word proof about any scientific theory.

Dan77 wrote:
Science can tell us quite a lot about the world around us, but very little about where it came from or where we came from so stop kidding yourselves that it can.


Science isn't trying to tell us anything about why we are here or where the universe came from (e.g. why did it start with a big bang?). It isn't trying tell us anything about how we should live our lives. If you want religion or god for that then that is fine by me.

I have no desire to convince you or anybody else that science or evolution or any other theory is "right" or proved. I am only trying to get across to people why it is that I hold a scientific viewpoint and why I am unconvinced by any of the arguments in favour of god or religion.
make_life_better
Lennon wrote:
shadedflame wrote:
There are no scientific facts that prove the bible is real I shall now Kill every 'scientifc evidence' that you have obtained.
1. The great flood did happen because of The fish fossils on The mountains!
Uhh No, The continets constantly move on things called tectonic plates, and if they collide land rises from the earth, usually out of the sea, since there is usually no land in the middle of an ocean.
You can't say no, just maybe. We just don't know what happened. There's two types of plates, continental and oceanic, both different. And the flood could have formed those mountains. Continental shouldn't normally rise out of the sea by the way, it should be above ocean level (unless you try to use loopholes like the continental shelf under the ocean).

Agreed I can't provide hard evidence that you are wrong. Just that your explanation adds unnecessary complexity and involves some processes or forces or interventions that have never been observed in the real world.
Lennon wrote:
shadedflame wrote:
2. What about those chariots in the red seas, moses parted it and then all of those egyptions got swallowed up!
Again no, When taking a boat across the red sea sometimes you might start to sink, or a horse might dies, so you know what they did? They threw them off the boat and into the water to prevent diseases and lost lives..
You can't say no, just maybe. We just don't know what happened.

Again your explanation adds unnecessary complexity and involves some processes or forces or interventions that have never been observed in the real world. Why not just stick to the simple explanation?
Lennon wrote:
shadedflame wrote:

3. Evolution is just a theory with no evidence to SUpport it. or God created everything as it is now.
Dinosaurs and fossils, nuff said.
Dinosaurs could have been wiped out by the flood, and the geographic layers which age them as settling sedimentation process taking millions of years old could have been formed in just a few years in a global flood with lateral flow sedimentation, hence the fossils are really much younger.

Again your explanation adds unnecessary complexity and involves some processes or forces or interventions that have never been observed in the real world. Why not just stick to the simple explanation provided by known geological processes?
Lennon wrote:
shadedflame wrote:
4. Countless miracles prove the existance of god.
A miracle can be anything, getting an A on my next exam could be a miracle to some, but was it was because of your imaginary friend, no It was because I studied hard. Your mother survived breats cancer? Its a miracle huh? no her docters just worked hard to preserve her life. You should have renewed faith in them not god.
Even doctors and professional experts recognise miracles as beyond logical reasoning for science to explain it.

And yet there has never been a single experimental case providing uncontravertable evidence of any of these so-called miracles. They always happen in uncontrolled environments, surrounded by people who want to believe and with no independent verification. Or maybe there wasn't really a cancer there at all, but just a mistake in the machine or by the doctor in diagnosis, or maybe it would have got better anyway, or maybe the placebo effect or whatever. There are usually a number of alternative explanations for any claimed miracle in anything approaching a controlled environment.

I am not trying to convince you or anybody else that I am right about any of this, just that I am not stupid and not blindly denying god or religion. I am very happy for you to have your faith, and in some way jealous of your certainty. I am just happier with my state of uncertain disbelief supported by lots of hard evidence but no cast-iron unshakable unbreakable proof.
anthonygerbils
Quote:
Now my opinion is that a religion should be private, EVERYONE should have a religion should they wish to


i agree with nisk as nowadays but not as much as it used to be children are made go to mass just because their pairents want them to and they are made to go to THEIR PARENTS church not one of their own CHOICE which is completly unfair as we are ment to have free will and free will means our own choices and our own choices means we pick and say what we want but in reality we DONT have FREE WILL as we are made do everything and if "god" sent us down here to have free will, then how is him expecting us to worship him free will.
please reply with your views
Marston
Provide me with concrete proof that a God exists, and I'll follow him to the ends of the Earth.
altec
Let me ask to those who does not believe in God:

1. Where would you go if you die tonight?
2. Why were you born?
3. What purpose do you have in life?
4. Where does love come from?
5. Where does your character and your very consciousness come from?
6. Why are you capable of thinking?
7. Why are we the only ones with clothes on and the rest of the animal kingdom doesn't? We have fats and hairs to keep us warm, why?
8. Where does life come from?

Explain in your own words. No links. No references. No skipping of a question. No answering with a question. Just you.

First rule : Christians are disqualified to answer and are not eligible to answer. Sorry for the discrimination.

Second rule : No Philo and Religion involved. Only pure unadulterated 100% Science.

Thank you!
polarBear
1. Where would you go if you die tonight?
a)soil
b)worms
c)plants
c)cows
d)you

How about that? I bet you can't say the same.

Why were you born?
According to my parents, because they wanted to have a child.

What purpose do you have in life?
To do my best to make the world a less disgusting place to live. Again, I bet you can't say the same, probably because a book told you whatever else.

Where does love come from?
Me and who loves me back.


Where does your character and your very consciousness come from?
Short answer: ME. Long answer, genetical and environmental variables processed by my central and peripheral nervous systems.

Why are you capable of thinking?
Because every single living being with a skull and a vertebral system has the same capability on a different degree of abstraction, so it's statistically coherent that I do too.


Why are we the only ones with clothes on and the rest of the animal kingdom doesn't? We have fats and hairs to keep us warm, why?
Because our 'fats and hairs' don't allow us to live in every climate, but clothing does. We don't have as much hair and fat that a polar bear, a wolf, or a damn dog does, you know?

Where does life come from?
Short answer: Earth. Long answer: A particular combination of independent near-alive complex systems of chemical enzymes and proteins.








I now have a question to you: Why do you NEED me to believe on your god? Can't I believe in, say, Mitra? Or, can't I believe in ME? Why do you NEED me know on your god? I don't, you do. Period. You have to learn to live with the fact that different people think different things, and many of them don't necessarily need to be evangelized to be superior to you.

Sh1t happens
altec
polarBear wrote:


I now have a question to you: Why do you NEED me to believe on your god? Can't I believe in, say, Mitra? Or, can't I believe in ME? Why do you NEED me know on your god? I don't, you do. Period. You have to learn to live with the fact that different people think different things, and many of them don't necessarily need to be evangelized to be superior to you.

Sh1t happens


lolz. Smile

I was hoping for a scientific evidence. But found your answer....

Anyone care to try?

About your question,

1. Why do you need me to believe in your god?

Stop and look around. Nature and the whole universe. What do you see?

2. Can't I believe, say Mitra?

Freedom of choice. But, why would anyone worship something made of stone or wood?

3. Can't I believe in me?

If you lie, do you believe you?

4. Why do you NEED me know on your god?

Need? It is all up to you, whether you listen or not. A missionary does not waste time on a town to preach if nobody believes. They just shake their sandals and leave. Simple. No debate. No force.

I'm one of many who listens. I believe in my Lord, Jesus, because he is the way, the truth, and the life. I'm not perfect, but I struggle to be like Him. I never really thought to be superior than anyone. Jesus told us to be humble and meek. Jesus told us to love your neighbor as yourself. He told us to be content in what we have. He told us to share our food with the poor. He told us many things in how to avoid pitfalls in this life and how to have a peaceful, wonderful, and blessed life.

I didn't find Him, He found me.
make_life_better
Dan77 wrote:
The only FACT is, you must choose to believe something. Whether it is belief in God, Evolution or whatever it is still just a belief. Why do you think it is called "Darwin's Theory of Evolution" and "The Big Bang Theory"

It's because none of these things have been proven, they are just something you choose to believe or not, just like religion.


The difference is in evidence. Scientists have gathered masses of real evidence for the big bang and for evolution. We are just not so foolish as to pronounce that they have been proven, so they remain just theories. There's nothing wrong with that. Religion on the other hand seems to rely strongly on faith with very little genuine reproducible evidence. Don't confuse these two positions. I prefer to go with the viewpoint that has masses of evidence rather than one with very little. But that proves nothing.

Dan77 wrote:
It sure makes me laugh when I see the believers in science moking the believers in God because they can't prove he exists, yet they themselves hold to a belief system that hasn't been proven.

Many people seem to think that because science can prove many things that it can prove anything. They obviously don't know much about science, as most scientific theory is eventually disproved and only a very small percentage actually turns out to be correct and proven.


I have no problem holding to a belief system that can't be proven. I just have a lot of supporting evidence for it. But I am not so foolish as to believe that science is flawed because many of its theories turn out to be wrong. All that is ever claimed is that a given theory is the best we have to date, and scientists (and the process of doing science) is working away at resolving the things that don't appear to fit the current theories, either by explaining that they do (in a justifiable way) or revising the theory (or inventing a better one, or whatever). Science's strength is its continuing questioning and refining and renewing our understanding to greater (deeper, higher, wider) levels.

Religion in contrast seems for many to be rooted in some words that were written down centuries ago in another language and which have been repeatedly translated and reinterpreted by various people through the ages. The "stories" were often based on word-of-mouth handed down from centuries previously. But that is fine by me, and doesn't devalue those stories. It's a matter of personal choice or faith or belief. I just happen to regard that as thin evidence - but that is of course just my opinion.

But please don't assume that I am blindly following science out of a sense which is even slightly like some religious person's faith. My viewpoint is always questioning and never accepting anything unless it could plausibly be proved to me from first principles by a series of logical steps that I can follow. I just don't have time to see all the stuff science can demonstrate because I could never live long enough, so I have to take some of it as a given, and assume that others will look and question other areas that I can't cover in enough detail or depth.
timothymartin
Learn how to control your mind or it will control you.
Indi
i can't resist... ^_^;

altec wrote:
1. Why do you need me to believe in your god?

Stop and look around. Nature and the whole universe. What do you see?

i see nature and the whole universe. Nothing more. What do you see, things that are not there?

altec wrote:
2. Can't I believe, say Mitra?

Freedom of choice. But, why would anyone worship something made of stone or wood?

Because of freedom of choice, i suppose.

But why would anyone worship something made of even less than stone or wood? Why would anyone worship something made only of hearsay, fiction and fantasy?

altec wrote:
3. Can't I believe in me?

If you lie, do you believe you?

If i lie, i know i am lying, so i know when i can be trusted and when i cannot. How do you know that your god, or its alleged prophets, are not lying to you.

altec wrote:
4. Why do you NEED me know on your god?

Need? It is all up to you, whether you listen or not. A missionary does not waste time on a town to preach if nobody believes. They just shake their sandals and leave. Simple. No debate. No force.

The evidence does not support your claim. Historically, if nobody in a town wanted to listen to the missionary, the missionary would leave, and then return with a force to burn the town down and force conversions at sword point. Today, they are a little more subtle. Today the missionary leaves to go back to their church and whine about persecution, simply because the locals were not interested in the missionary's stories, and then the church starts spreading lies about the town having no moral sense whatsoever.

altec wrote:
I'm one of many who listens. I believe in my Lord, Jesus, because he is the way, the truth, and the life. I'm not perfect, but I struggle to be like Him. I never really thought to be superior than anyone. Jesus told us to be humble and meek. Jesus told us to love your neighbor as yourself. He told us to be content in what we have. He told us to share our food with the poor. He told us many things in how to avoid pitfalls in this life and how to have a peaceful, wonderful, and blessed life.

Jesus sounds nice. Pity so few of his followers listen to what Jesus told them to do.
spinout
have you ever seen the movie SIGNS?

Remember the scene when the former priest says that he HATES GOD! Mel Gibson I think it was!

I'm a Christian and HATE God! nothing more unnormal than compared to that movie.

So isn't this universe a load of bad stuff. Read the papers, just bad things all around the world --- exept for 10% that possess 90% of this planets money...

I'm living in a 10% country, still thinking it is a load of crap! i hope next big bang is better !!!
jeffryjon
I believe totally in God and therefore don't hate him. Must agree with many of the atheists standpoint though that they see no proof of God. If it were left to religion, I probably would also not believe. We must remember though that many if not most of the scriptures are not the word of God, rather someone's interpretation or dictation of what they say God is and does. I wouldn't expect anyone to believe anything based on heresay and that includes God, history, pseudo-science etc - why should anyone believe anything which hasn't been adequately proven.
Ankhanu
"It's not the band I hate, it's the fans."

Honestly, I don't think I hate anything Razz That said, I don't believe in theological beings, though I wanted to in my youth. I simply couldn't, in the end, justify belief in God (Yeweh/Allah/whatever you call it) or other gods in light of the simple beauty that is a universe without one.

The universe, reality, whatever you want to refer to it as, is a thing of immensity, absolute splendor; beauty undefinable. There is so much to marvel at, so much to know and understand; and we know almost none of it. We can all be explorers in this world that seems as though it has been full explored, if we just look a little deeper than what we think we know.

As an atheist and a scientist, it boggles my mind that anyone could willingly infringe upon the wonder of the world and universe around us by imposing a god into the mix. From everything we can tell with the evidence at hand (thus far collected), all this wonderful complexity and beauty can come about without the aid of a supernatural being (from whence did this being come from if it does exist?), so why try to fit this kindergartner's puzzle piece into the grand jigsaw that is reality? It doesn't fit, stop trying to force it into the picture... it's not even the right size, and the pattern is off. (end metaphor)
Exploring reality within its own bounds is pretty rewarding, and incredible. Every study brings us more knowledge... every study shows us just how little we know, and shows us new questions to ask and explore. We are naive, but we're learning.

That there is no grand overlord is a pretty liberating idea. You no longer have to focus on living this life for rewards in the next; you can freely explore the world around you with an open mind; treating others (and the planet) well simply for the reward of not being a dick. Being a good person simply to be a good person, rather than for the promise of a doggie biscuit at the end of your life, is pretty swell. To say that religion prevents people from being bad to one another is pure naivety; pretty much all of history is evidence to the contrary.

It's possible there is some god out there, watching, controlling... but if so, they're hiding pretty well and must be purposefully stacking the evidence against being revealed. So, if that's the case, I guess it's God's Will that we disbelieve... pay no mind to the man behind the curtain...
Arseniy
Who hates God?
I just don't care. There's possibly some kind of 18th century God described by deists; he had created everything and now rests somewhere. But I doubt about his transcendental origin.
There's no reason for sane people to hate God even if he exists, every decision lies on our own mind.
spinout
Give me one reason NOT to hate god!!!

Look in every newspaper - just bad news all over the planet!!!! Hardly any good news at all... this Universe seems like a major shithouse! Or am I wrong????

(ok I am knowing the answer but still... God could have done better!!!)
busman
silvermesh wrote:
I just want to make a comment about something touched on here.

The seperation of Church and State wasn't written about keeping religion out of government. It's about not allowing government to have any say or control in religion. The reason the early Christian church moved away from government is because the government tried to change the rules of christianity. For the same reason, the founding fathers came over to the americas to escape religious persecution. they founded a government that was supposed to have literally no say in religious matters.

it's not about "no saying god in government run places" it's the opposite. no president excommunicating people of his religion from his church for worshipping a different way.


This is factually not true.
Bikerman
Hating something you don't believe in would be rather silly. I do get angry about the result of faith though.
For example, I have just finished a debate about William lane Craig on Youtube. WLC believes in something known as 'divine command theory' which is logical as a theist but unusual nowadays. Basically it says that morality is defined by God and therefore what God instructs is always moral.

That infuriates me. Why? Because it is no different to the justification used by terrorists from all religions. It means, for example, that for people like WLC who are bible 'literalists', he believes that wiping out humanity in the flood MUST have been a moral argument.

When anyone is so twisted by religion that their basic moral sense is warped in this way then it is reason to get angry I think...
busman
Bikerman wrote:
Hating something you don't believe in would be rather silly. I do get angry about the result of faith though.
For example, I have just finished a debate about William lane Craig on Youtube. WLC believes in something known as 'divine command theory' which is logical as a theist but unusual nowadays. Basically it says that morality is defined by God and therefore what God instructs is always moral.

That infuriates me. Why? Because it is no different to the justification used by terrorists from all religions. It means, for example, that for people like WLC who are bible 'literalists', he believes that wiping out humanity in the flood MUST have been a moral argument.

When anyone is so twisted by religion that their basic moral sense is warped in this way then it is reason to get angry I think...


Any ideology wich promotes the killing of innocents in its name without and act of agression first (wich would make them not innocent anymore), by all means is illegitimate and should be treated as such. 100% Agreence.
Indi
Bikerman wrote:
WLC believes in something known as 'divine command theory' which is logical as a theist but unusual nowadays.

Craig's a DCT man? ^_^; Good grief. i thought that went out fashion before the Renaissance. The more i hear about this tool, the less impressed i am.

busman wrote:
Any ideology wich promotes the killing of innocents in its name without and act of agression first (wich would make them not innocent anymore), by all means is illegitimate and should be treated as such. 100% Agreence.

(Not necessarily. Sometimes killing innocent people is perfectly justifiable, in some moral frameworks. Take plagues for example. If a community becomes infected with a very dangerous, incurable disease, it's perfectly justifiable to quarantine them and leave them to die - and kill any of them that try to escape.

Morality is not simple, and it's particularly unsympathetic to absolutes.)
Bikerman
WLC starts by arguing objective morality as proof of God but he is a literalist - so he can't address the genocide in the Ot metaphorically or even theologically - he has to deal with it factually. The only place to go is DCT if he also wants to maintain his famous position on absolute morality, which states God is absolutely moral - therefore logically incapable of amoral action, let alone immoral - stuck well and truly on his own contradiction (it is so shot-full of other holes it makes one wonder why he WOULD keep it)..answer - he cares nothing for philosophy. Did you catch his now notorious segment in print?
I can almost quote it without looking now Smile
Quote:
I think Martin Luther correctly distinguished between what he called the magisterial and ministerial uses of reason. The magisterial use of reason occurs when reason stands over and above the gospel like a magistrate and judges it on the basis of argument and evidence. The ministerial use of reason occurs when reason submits to and serves the gospel…. Should a conflict arise between the witness of the Holy Spirit to the fundamental truth of the Christian faith and beliefs based on argument and evidence, then it is the former which must take precedence over the latter.
foumy6
Jayfarer wrote:
I don't hate God.

But then I see posts like this, and I feel tempted to.
]

I agree I have my own views and Im not going to explain them here but you need to chill out everyone is allowed their own opinion. It is post like these that make me feel embarrassed for the church. this is all i have to say about this you need to chill out and let people chooses there own religion instead of talking this does the bible not say you should love everyone even your enemies so why dont you try to follow your own religion before you go and criticize everyone else's.
busman
Indi wrote:
Bikerman wrote:
WLC believes in something known as 'divine command theory' which is logical as a theist but unusual nowadays.

Craig's a DCT man? ^_^; Good grief. i thought that went out fashion before the Renaissance. The more i hear about this tool, the less impressed i am.

busman wrote:
Any ideology wich promotes the killing of innocents in its name without and act of agression first (wich would make them not innocent anymore), by all means is illegitimate and should be treated as such. 100% Agreence.

(Not necessarily. Sometimes killing innocent people is perfectly justifiable, in some moral frameworks. Take plagues for example. If a community becomes infected with a very dangerous, incurable disease, it's perfectly justifiable to quarantine them and leave them to die - and kill any of them that try to escape.

Morality is not simple, and it's particularly unsympathetic to absolutes.)


Basically abiding by a faith that allows you to kill inoocents that bring no harm to your life, potentially fatal diseases etc (cicurstantial situations not withstanding, basically) is wrong. That's what I ment to say Very Happy
Bikerman
Indeed.
Divine Command Theory basically holds that God, being absolutely moral, is therefore the source of morality and it follows that anything that God 'tells you' to do is therefore absolutely moral simply because it is God doing the telling. This means that killing innocents, if God commands it, is not only not immoral, it is 'absolutely' moral and anything else would be immoral.

DCT is the last refuge of the theist who is committed to a more or less literal interpretation of the Old Testament because the OT clearly contains many commands and actions by Yaweh that are deeply immoral by any yardstick we could bring to bear. The only escape is to either admit that God can be immoral, or assert that every command from God is moral by definition. DCT takes the latter option.

This, of course, leaves believers in DCT completely unable to comment on actions such as the 9/11 atrocity because, according to their OWN faith, providing the hijackers believed that they were acting in accordance with the wish of God - which at least some of them undoubtedly did - then their actions were not just not immoral, they were absolutely moral.
busman
Exactly guy exactly. Very Happy
TheStripePrincess
I don't hate god, I just don't believe he exists.
I have nothing against people who have religion but my brain just won't let me believe in an all-powerful omni-present being up in heaven.
For all I know I could be wrong though but I guess we'll see! Or not...
I kind of wish I did believe in religion sometimes because what I believe will happen after I die is...nothing. I'll lie in the ground and rot... Which is kind of depressing d:
mm365
Read it..mart it
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