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Hybrid Vehicles





armanandjulia
Eventually hybrid vehicles will need to be replaced by a different engine type. Currently we are based of hydrocarbons like gasoline, or derivative of petroleum.

They only true salvagable way out of the environment mess we are in is through renewable enrergy resources.
z4c.
you know alot about cars!
Canadian Bacon
The problem with hybrid technology right now is the price to buy them. You can get a very efficient gasoline car for far less money. And the thousands of dollars you save in money more the equals the money you would ever save on gas. I believe the next step for vehicles is a Hydrogen/Solar mix. The world is 75% water and solar is always available. The technology right now is expensive, but I believe it will be worth it in the long run.
jaysen
Like everything else, when something starts out it is usally expensive, but the prices will drop once the technology becomes more mainstream, and they find cheaper ways of producing the components.

once gasoline is only sold out of performance shops as a specailty item I am gonna miss the old muscle cars though Laughing
Reaper
Yeah hydrogen would definatly be the way to go, if they could design a car that could run off electricity for a long time that would be good too. also keep in mind it has to be efficiant so those prototype electric cars out there dont count Smile
xero102
There so much to buy one. That its almost the same as just paying for the gas in the car i have now. I mean do they really have to have the price so high i mean low and middle class can not or barly pay for one its like there only selling them to the high class people. O well Save them money on gas like it really would matter to them. But To us we look for the best deals on gas culz we dont have the money to buy one maybe this is just me maybe no one eals thinks like i do about this i just feel as there way to much keep the rich ritcher and the poor poorer
horseatingweeds
I see the best alternative as the alcohols. These are rentable, clean burning and fit with current technology. Very cheep in comparison too. Hydrogen is a long way off yet.

We need to follow South America. The last statistic I read about Brazil was that they were using close to a quarter percent alcohol in their gasoline.

Hybrids I think are more of a novelty. They are bad for the environment to with all their heavy metal batteries and expensive cores.
SunburnedCactus
Agreed. Using hybrids would require muchos resources to replace even a small fraction of the vehicles currently on the roads.
igor123d
Hybrids are not a panacea for the world's energy crisis. They do in fact consume less gasoline, however they still need a considerable amount. Even by halfing our gasoline consumption (which does not seem likely with China and other regions steadily increasing their industrial output), we cannot rely on this source for the world's energy needs. A completely new method must be found for resolving our energy needs and it has to come in the next few decades.
Soulfire
Hydrogren seems to be a long-term goal to a short-term (but lasting) problem. Eventually we will need to completely convert to hydrogen.

Iceland already has! All of their 50 population! Just kidding about that.
LG-2
armanandjulia wrote:
Eventually hybrid vehicles will need to be replaced by a different engine type. Currently we are based of hydrocarbons like gasoline, or derivative of petroleum.

They only true salvagable way out of the environment mess we are in is through renewable enrergy resources.


They need to do like in Back To The Future. Trash powered vehicles. Twisted Evil
David_Pardy
I agree that Hydrogen is the way to go but they need to find cheap, easy ways to extract Hydrogen from renewable water sources (eg. the ocean). Hydrogen is a highly volatile gas, so it's dangerous to work with.

Here's an interesting thought: Unlike todays vehicles, which are heavier when they have a full tank of petrol, hydrogen powered vehicles mightbe slightly lighter with a full tank Wink.

I think the best short-term solution that we have is to increase the efficiency and availability of public transport. Electricity powered vehicles would probably be more of an incovenience in the short term until they actually produce a reasonable amount of power and battery life in comparison to recharge time.



Bring back the Steam Engine!
Jack_Hammer
Hydrogen, Veggie Oil, Electricity, etc. there are lots of renewable fuels already, but they are costly and it is easier to go along with the flow.
horseatingweeds
David_Pardy wrote:
I agree that Hydrogen is the way to go but they need to find cheap, easy ways to extract Hydrogen from renewable water sources (eg. the ocean). Hydrogen is a highly volatile gas, so it's dangerous to work with.

Here's an interesting thought: Unlike todays vehicles, which are heavier when they have a full tank of petrol, hydrogen powered vehicles mightbe slightly lighter with a full tank Wink.

I think the best short-term solution that we have is to increase the efficiency and availability of public transport. Electricity powered vehicles would probably be more of an incovenience in the short term until they actually produce a reasonable amount of power and battery life in comparison to recharge time.



Bring back the Steam Engine!


Indeed, producing hydrogen non-chemically cost more than its worth, but as for tank weight, hydrogen is compressed into liquid which is about the same weight then there is the addition of the heavier compression tank. So it would be heavier.

Public trans. Is a great idea as well as home offices and reduced commuting. Also, purchasing local food.

It is not practical, or possible with current or immediately foreseeable technology to replace current vehicles with battery powered.
Blaster
Its good that we could get 100 mpg. With the gas prices on the rise that will really help. I wish people now would by hybrids. That would cause the gas prices to drop. The supply and demand to drop.

The avarge highest it got to here was like over $3 usd.

Around where i live it was like $2.86

If you live in the city wow. I really feel bad for you.
Lennon
The total alcohol produced in the USA (100 trillion gallons) would only be enough to supply 0.1% of the total automobile industry in the USA alone. There is simply not enough alcohol around to supply cars. The exception is Brazil, where sugar cane is the biggest resource, and alcohol is much more economic and abundant than oil. Hence, over 40% of cars in Brazil use alcohol. They set up 11 alcohol producing plants in Virginia in the 1970's-1980's and within 10 years all were shut down because the idea of supplying cars with alcohol failed. Hydrogen power is possible if you break down water into Oxygen and Hydrogen. There is an uneconomical use of energy needed to break down the water, not worthwhile, unless the hydropower is coupled with a petroleum Engine. This is the case in some cars (down to £9,000 or $15,000) where the engine has a dual function hydro-petroleum engine, and automatically switches fuels when needed.
(the charged battery can electrolyse the water into hydrogen and oxygen)

The light density of the hydrogen will have an insignificantly low effect on the weight of the car.
Reaper
We have allready built batterys that are long lasting, now what we need to do is design a battery thats both long lasting and can sustain producing alot of power for a long time, hell lets though in some recharging technology like that idea they use so when you press the brakes power is sent back into the car recharging the battery and were set!
Lennon
When you use a battery, the potential drops and the energy is converted into work. In a car, this work is acceleration, and most of this work is lost to friction on road surfaces and brakes, in metal-metal friction in the combustion engine etc. When you recycle the brake energy, you still have a net loss of energy that still requires external charging of the battery, using a petroleum combustion engine or hydropower.
Sidewinder07
Where I live all the gas is 10% alchol (ethenol same as in drinks) and if you have the right vehical you can get whats called E85 which is 85% alchol. The alchol is made from processing corn.
Although E85 is ususally slightly less efficient it usually costs at least a $.25 USD less than regular gas per gallon.
Because it has a high octane rating supercharged or turbocharged vehicals can actually be more efficient running on E85.
I think until hydrogen or some other renewable energy source comes along alcohol is the way to go.
psycosquirrel
That sounds cool, Sidewinder. Where do you live? Laughing

I think the solution still has not been found yet, unless we can drastically improve our current electrical technologies. Even if we do end up transitioning to hydrogen or something of the sort, the resources required would be enormous simply to get a small region on the alternate source. We have to find a solution soon, or we all will be walking to work...
Silentrob
Reaper wrote:
Yeah hydrogen would definatly be the way to go, if they could design a car that could run off electricity for a long time that would be good too. also keep in mind it has to be efficiant so those prototype electric cars out there dont count Smile


The only problem is the fact that in order to create the electricity for the electric car you have to use fossil fuels at the moment. Until we start mass producing the (Producer)wind farms, solar etc.
Lennon
There is a solar powered car around now that can hit 60km/hr in sunshine.
ocalhoun
I see the best solution to be nuclear powered cars.
Hear me out...
They would be extremely powerfull: Todays drag racers could be left in the dust by a well designed nuclear car.
They would be extremely efficient. A few pounds of uranium would power a car for decades of thorough use.
They would be very clean: No exaust, and only a very small amount of nuclear waste to be disposed of later.

The reactor would have to be well armored, of course, becuase of the risk of an accident causing a small meltdown, but that should not be a problem with the increased power.

It would work like a nuclear power plant does now, except in miniature (which means the uranium would have to be more enriched [a possible political problem]). Also, instead of turning a trurbine, the steam would turn the clutch of the transmission.
Lennon
ocalhoun wrote:
I see the best solution to be nuclear powered cars.


Yeah, nuclear power hasn't been given much thought.
It is very efficient, but very expensive, U138 is so rare.
But if you have mass U138 production facilities, which would be shockingly unethical, then maybe.
It's also hard to control on such a small scale, you're talking about a chain reaction that could melt-down, the technology requires D2O heavy water or some other very specialized cooling technology that would be too expensive for cars.

Gamma radiation can pass through anything up to 5 inches of lead thick. Lead is heavy.
silliman
jaysen... et. al.,

I'm getting rid of my 10-year old van and have ordered the new 2007 Toyota Camry Hybrid. The dealer said it will be manufactured in April and shipped in May.

Am I paying more? Yup... more than likely. But as a consumer, I can vote with my feet and my wallet. I am willing to "eat" the marginal cost increase if I can send a message to GM, Ford and other automotive oligopolies. Change!

Most of my commute to work involves driving 20 mph on a freeway for about an hour and a half (one way). At that speed, hybrids report an estimated (but debatable) 60 miles per gallon.

Jaysen, I see you're from Canada. I've heard that Canada has portable units that make hydrogen from water right at home. Is that true? If so, how is it working? Does this solution off one of many promising solutions?

Lennon, I've enjoyed your very knowledgeable and informative postings. Thanks

Concluding Statement: As consumers, we are part of the problem, but also part of the solution when we take charge and act.
ocalhoun
silliman wrote:

Am I paying more? Yup... more than likely. But as a consumer, I can vote with my feet and my wallet. I am willing to "eat" the marginal cost increase if I can send a message to GM, Ford and other automotive oligopolies. Change!


Marginal? My jeep cost $7,200 and takes about $25 a week to fuel.
A new hybrid costs around $30,000 and by my estimate would cost me $6 per week to fuel.
Difference in price: $22,800
Difference in fuel cost per week: $19
Difference in fuel cost per year: $988
The difference in cost should be paid for by the difference in fuel cost in 23 years.
So it'll pay for itself by 2029! (supposing it still works then)
kutegoddezz
i think that hybrid technology is really making its way into the automobile industry because there is definitely a market for it. people are concerned about the state of the environment and also with the overall fuel efficiency of their cars. SUV’s could potentially make a strong comeback once they have made a full transition to becoming Hybrid vehicles. Toyota has already initiated this through their creation of the Highlander Hybrid. Safety concerns will also remain a major market trend for consumers. It is clear that consumers will continue looking for vehicles that appeal to their modern lifestyle and as a result, the industry will continually provide vehicles that suit these needs and invest in ground breaking technology to go beyond consumer expectations. The Internet will continue to remain a strong influence in the automobile market and will further develop into an essential tool for sales.
a.Bird
I think we need to rely more on public transportation, and start walking/biking more. Oh wait, I guess half of the American population would have a hard time pulling that off with a few MickyD bags hanging under their chins.
Lennon
Speaking of hybrid vehicles, could you have a hybrid tractor, hybrid lorry, hybrid container, hybrid ships, hybrid aircraft... Interesting.

Yes, this has to be given thought.

heavy hybrid vehicles like 40ft containers could use special technology like nuclear coz it's more economical.
Aircraft are nearly always flying either above the clouds in daytime, and could use solar panel, or at night time, where water/alcohol may be an option.
Submarines already use nuclear power.
Large container sea vessels like oil-tankers could use solar when they're out at sea in sunny conditions due to massive deck area.
TheDrunkenClam
I think instead of the typical conception of hybrid cars we should go to cars with electric motors and diesel generators. A lot of the inefficiency in engines occurs because we are constantly changing the engine speed. If we use the engine as a generator the the engine can be optimized for one speed since the output torque isn't being use to directly power the wheels and thus control the vehicle speed. Also a diesel engine should be used because the compression ignition allows for higher compression ratios and accordingly higher efficiencies. Regenerative braking and the other little tricks that engineers currently use in hybrid cars would be icing on the cake.

About hydrogen power, the problem with hydrogen power is that it takes more power to split the hydrogen from water than you get back when you burn it. So you pretty much need something else to power the hydrogen reformer. Either way, you're gonna have to depend on coal, nuclear, natural gas, solar, hydroelectric etc to power your hydrogen reformers. Unless something changes in the laws of physics we will never use hydrogen as our main source of energy.

I think what people forget is that engineering isn't just about what's most efficient. There's much much more to what products are released. For instance, if I told you that I could get you a car that would run off of anything that creates heat-gas, wood, burning cow patties, whatever- except you'd have to wait 30 seconds before your car would start and your changes in speed would be slow, would you buy the car? A car was developed in the 70's that would, but it never sold.
Reaper
Whats your point?? we need energy in order to burn coal too, that costs just as much energy, also keep in mind that combustables are not the only source of energy, also say hello to the H2 truck Smilehttp://www.h2cars.biz/artman/publish/article_778.shtml. Muahahahaahah bow to the new generation of power hydrogen!
And the pollution this truck produces is litterally good enough to drink Smile
windval
Canadian Bacon wrote:
The problem with hybrid technology right now is the price to buy them. You can get a very efficient gasoline car for far less money. And the thousands of dollars you save in money more the equals the money you would ever save on gas. I believe the next step for vehicles is a Hydrogen/Solar mix. The world is 75% water and solar is always available. The technology right now is expensive, but I believe it will be worth it in the long run.


i agree with you

we will use solar energy to our daily life
lukeropro
Hybrid cars are gonna make the world a cleaner place! WOO HOO! That means no more global warming etc and no more boring geography lessons on it! Razz
TheDrunkenClam
lukeropro wrote:
Hybrid cars are gonna make the world a cleaner place! WOO HOO! That means no more global warming etc and no more boring geography lessons on it! Razz


Actually, global warming is gonna happen whether or not we use hybrid cars or 1930's model T's. Global warming is a natural cycle. Think about this...if there were no such thing as global warming, we'd never have gotten out of the ice age. What a lot of environmentalists neglect to talk about is the warming effect that will happen reguardless of human activity. They make it seem like all global warming is the result of humans wreaking havoc on the world, when in fact some of it was going to happen anyways. However, I'm not saying that humans have no part to play in rising temperatures, I'm just saying that even if we got cleaner cars, etc. there'd still be global warming.
Reaper
...... yes but theres a big differance between NATURAL global warming and human created global warming, our global warming is seriously screwing up the planet, as evident from the destruction of the ozone layer that surrounds our planet and maintains life. In short there's to much input of carbon, and not enough plant life to turn carbon into oxygen.
Petee
I think that either hydrogen fuel of some sort (fuel cells or something else) or a clean renewable resource, such as an alcohol. Or we'd have to find a way to store massive amounts of electrical energy, if we went for an electric motor approach. We currently can't effeciently use just electric motors to power our vehicles. If we could develop more powerful electric motors and a better way to store our power that might work. Solar is always an option, but it can't work all the time. If it gets cloudy, you're screwed.
please.be.quiet
hybrid cars will be replaced by hydrogen vehicles, they're already working on them, although it's very, extremely expensive to buy one, because it's so hard to store hydrogen, but hopefully, by ten years, there will be a better solution and they will become affordable and hit roads replacing gasoline and hybrid cars.
boringest
i think plug-in hybrid is the next thing to replace hybrids...this is a more gradual change and govts around the world are considering this technology. Read more here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_vehicle#Plug-in_hybrid
Slick
as much as im up for a cleaner environment... i hardly think releasing cleaner cars that have a nuclear reactor underneath ur seat is a good idea....

think of all the idiots on the road already, all those that manage to crash on a straight road!!!!

wat about pile ups??? add 4 or 5 nuclear reactors will be even nasty then normal!

and yes hydrogen cars do have mini nuclear reactors!!!!! already been a few deaths during production if i remember correctly!!!!
Reaper
Whats your point a few deaths?? a lot more people then a few drop dead due to gas related accidents, and if im not mistaken hydrogen fuel its self if quite safe. And im pretty sure a reactor thats basicly powered by water and hydrogen molicules could not be dangerous let alone radio active. And those few people who died? they probably ignored safety procedures in the first place or half assed their jobs.
Lennon
Ok,

I need someone to explain the hydrogen power coz I'm now in a state of temporary confusion and I'm not motivated enough to research right now.

Hydrogen power is either combustion of hydrogen for the combustion engine, just like hydrogen used to be used in those pre-WWII baloons.
Or Hydrogen is nuclear fission into helium producing energy.
I don't see the latter happening in cars since there's it's rarely ever been used as any kind of energy, even in a power plant.

If hydrogen nuclear reactors are used in cars I need references.
Slick
they do have reactors in the car...
criticaldensity
Ask yourselves what is the more important REASON for using alternative engines/motors? Is it for saving money, or saving our environment? It SHOULD be about saving the environment. Very Happy
criticaldensity
Lennon wrote:
Ok,

I need someone to explain the hydrogen power coz I'm now in a state of temporary confusion and I'm not motivated enough to research right now.

Hydrogen power is either combustion of hydrogen for the combustion engine, just like hydrogen used to be used in those pre-WWII baloons.
Or Hydrogen is nuclear fission into helium producing energy.
I don't see the latter happening in cars since there's it's rarely ever been used as any kind of energy, even in a power plant.

If hydrogen nuclear reactors are used in cars I need references.


Hydrogen fuel cell cars work like this..... Water is the fuel...it is separated into Oxygen and Hydrogen. The Hydrogen is NOT burned, but instead it reacts with something else (cant remember what) and creates an electric charge. That charge goes to an electric motor and you move. During the chemical reaction, the hydrogen is turned back into water. No internal combustion happens as there is only an electric motor, not a traditional piston engine.
Slick
watched a program about hydro cars...

the whole car (engine wise etc) is all in a thin base... by the look of it - it was only about 8 inches think...

imagine a car... take the wheel of then chop 8 inches from the bottom of the car.. then replace the wheels... and that ur car lol

you then have wat i call shells.... that simply bolt onto the base (the car)

there was talk of place u can go and in literally 30mins u can have a whole new style of car... new shape, interior... etc

simple unbolt the old shell and replace with the new shell...

as the main functions are electrical there no steering colum, break pedals etc, its all controlled off the new style steering wheel, which are basically like padles u twist to accelerate and brake..

the dash board is basically just the centre console of a car... and then like to rails one each side.... at the touch of a button the steering wheel can be switched from one side of the car to the other... so in 10 secs possible duing a long journey u can pull over and let the passenger drive without changing seats...

its possible again because everything is controled by the steering wheel so no foot pedals to move.. no gear stick etc
Jack_Hammer
Actually nculear power is very unefficiant that statistics say it is, but they havent included the proper desposal of the waste, which is very unefficiant considering there half like is about 500years they have to be put into glass and dumped at the bottom of the ocean (to be disposed of propperly)
Reaper
Slick wrote:
watched a program about hydro cars...

the whole car (engine wise etc) is all in a thin base... by the look of it - it was only about 8 inches think...

imagine a car... take the wheel of then chop 8 inches from the bottom of the car.. then replace the wheels... and that ur car lol

you then have wat i call shells.... that simply bolt onto the base (the car)

there was talk of place u can go and in literally 30mins u can have a whole new style of car... new shape, interior... etc

simple unbolt the old shell and replace with the new shell...

as the main functions are electrical there no steering colum, break pedals etc, its all controlled off the new style steering wheel, which are basically like padles u twist to accelerate and brake..

the dash board is basically just the centre console of a car... and then like to rails one each side.... at the touch of a button the steering wheel can be switched from one side of the car to the other... so in 10 secs possible duing a long journey u can pull over and let the passenger drive without changing seats...

its possible again because everything is controled by the steering wheel so no foot pedals to move.. no gear stick etc

Did you know that it only takes about 2 seconds longer to actually get your lazy ass up and switch sides?? And those shells as you call them that bolt onto a car in half and hour? I doubt you could do that in half n hour after all that crap was installed.
This program you watched was probably based more on science fiction then anything, as they say why change a good thing? the current primitive wheel works quite well in controling a car, and the gas peddals work even better and personally I could not imagine having to speed up or brake while using my hands, after all your feet dont do anything in the car anyways so you might as well have them control gas and breaks.
I'm all for switching fuel sources to somthing like hydrogen but I never said anything about messing with the rest of the design. You should fix the problem with the engines, not work on a fancy new frame that will do two things, jack up prices on this car because this "New" frame would be expensive to make, and of course it would piss a lot of tall people off because they could no longer fit in these new cars. So change the engine NOTHING else, because why re-invent the wheel when the one you have now works quite fine??
mstreet
If they could actually make it more reasonable to buy a hybrid vehicle I think a lot of people would purchase them.
Slick
Reaper wrote:
Slick wrote:
watched a program about hydro cars...

the whole car (engine wise etc) is all in a thin base... by the look of it - it was only about 8 inches think...

imagine a car... take the wheel of then chop 8 inches from the bottom of the car.. then replace the wheels... and that ur car lol

you then have wat i call shells.... that simply bolt onto the base (the car)

there was talk of place u can go and in literally 30mins u can have a whole new style of car... new shape, interior... etc

simple unbolt the old shell and replace with the new shell...

as the main functions are electrical there no steering colum, break pedals etc, its all controlled off the new style steering wheel, which are basically like padles u twist to accelerate and brake..

the dash board is basically just the centre console of a car... and then like to rails one each side.... at the touch of a button the steering wheel can be switched from one side of the car to the other... so in 10 secs possible duing a long journey u can pull over and let the passenger drive without changing seats...

its possible again because everything is controled by the steering wheel so no foot pedals to move.. no gear stick etc

Did you know that it only takes about 2 seconds longer to actually get your lazy *** up and switch sides?? And those shells as you call them that bolt onto a car in half and hour? I doubt you could do that in half n hour after all that crap was installed.
This program you watched was probably based more on science fiction then anything, as they say why change a good thing? the current primitive wheel works quite well in controling a car, and the gas peddals work even better and personally I could not imagine having to speed up or brake while using my hands, after all your feet dont do anything in the car anyways so you might as well have them control gas and breaks.
I'm all for switching fuel sources to somthing like hydrogen but I never said anything about messing with the rest of the design. You should fix the problem with the engines, not work on a fancy new frame that will do two things, jack up prices on this car because this "New" frame would be expensive to make, and of course it would piss a lot of tall people off because they could no longer fit in these new cars. So change the engine NOTHING else, because why re-invent the wheel when the one you have now works quite fine??


why are u attackin wat i have said... im simply telling people wat i saw in a program... that actually had a working car there of this type...

if you are to continue making comments to wat people have sed please re-adjust your attitude and get an eye appointment therefore enabling yourself to read the post properly...

i never sed any of the features were good or bad.. never sed that im too lazy to switch sides...

think before you write... no wonder you hear of people being hunted down n attacked after bein offensive on forums and chatrooms... like to see you have the same attitude to people faces!!!

mstreet wrote:
If they could actually make it more reasonable to buy a hybrid vehicle I think a lot of people would purchase them.


as much as i agree i think people will hold back for a while until they are tried and tested... alot of "petrol heads" wont like them as there built for econemy and not perfomance obviously...

like wen ford released the focus RS haha it had a rs turbo engine but is restricted to conform with econemy issues, which is a great disappointment for poeple that purchase cars for their performances....

which leads to another question... will hybrid and other technologys for improving the environment just focus on family cars etc.. wat about things like tractors and lorries? will they provide alternatives for them??[/quote]
Slick
also reaper if you read the post properly, the "shells contain everything, seating, control colum etc, so u'd enter a shop and tell them wat u want i.e. colours n various designs then wen they get it in they unbolt the existing shells then put the new one on...
Reaper
I didn't mean to attack you like that but at the time of the post I was pissed about somthing else, sorry about that. But still I don't think they should change everything just the engines.
And that total shell replacement thing, thats just the problem, a lot of people prefer to modify their cars, and even more would prefer to just buy a new car all together and drop the old one off in the chop shop.
Also that seems a bit dangerous to me, having a frame that can snap off that easily. I wouldn't want to be in a car thats frame could suddenly snap off during a car accsident would you? also cutting 8 inches off it would still make these cars hard to use for people who are taller then most.
silliman
[/quote]
Marginal? My jeep cost $7,200 and takes about $25 a week to fuel.
A new hybrid costs around $30,000 and by my estimate would cost me $6 per week to fuel.
Difference in price: $22,800
Difference in fuel cost per week: $19
Difference in fuel cost per year: $988
The difference in cost should be paid for by the difference in fuel cost in 23 years.
So it'll pay for itself by 2029! (supposing it still works then)[/quote]
My 10-year old van cost $32,000 and takes $40. a week to fuel
2007 Toyota Camry costs around $30,000 - $3,000. (government's hybrid vehicle tax credit)
Difference between new van sticker price and Hybrid: $5,000. (32K – 27K)
Given a lifespan of 150,000 miles, a Camry Hybrid owner would save about 1,500 gallons of gas compared to a conventionally powered Camry -- 30% better fuel economy -- or about $4,500, assuming $3 per gallon gas.

Please note today’s news: “Nigeria oil 'total war' warning” http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4723076.stm
The Movement for the Emancipation of the Niger Delta has given oil companies and their employees until midnight on Friday night to leave the region.

Nigeria is Africa's leading oil exporter and the fifth-biggest source of US oil imports
Iraq is the sixth leading exporter of oil to the US
Trouble is brewing in Iran
Bottom-line, in a few years will not be $3.00 a gallon count on double or triple the price.

Footnote: Interesting that you calculate a “savings” by driving a Hybrid that will eventually pay for the car by 2029. BUT you don’t calculate any savings by driving a jeep that will pay for your jeep. [By the way, you are obviously comparing an old, used jeep sticker price with the sticker price of a new car. Um... apples and oranges.
Platform
Well my view is that the current way that we get hydrogen fro the cars is by sung a huge amount of power in the diversion process for separating the hydrogen atoms from others.

While it is proven that algae can do this by themselves.

But for now, why not switch to efficient turbine engines, they are powerful, multi fuel, and efficient.
benwhite
For a better example of hybrid pricing, one might look at the two versions of the Honda accord. I'm being rough here, but if I remeber, the hybrid version is around 5k more expensive, of which 3k is given back by US gov't tax credit.

With my father's driving habits, he will save the difference in around 4 years. It's not about saving money yet--oil is still too cheap. The more it goes up, the more money one saves. Also, current hybrid cars like Accord (as opposed to the Prius) are built to have high horsepower instead of high efficiency. They can make them much more efficient and thus cheapter to fuel, but people tend to want cars that offer comparable performance. This will probably change and expand overtime, with companies offering more options than just hybrid, gasoline, and diesel.

Only a matter of time now.
j.c.vleugel
regenerational feul, transmutation alchemistic stuff
Vrythramax
armanandjulia wrote:
Eventually hybrid vehicles will need to be replaced by a different engine type. Currently we are based of hydrocarbons like gasoline, or derivative of petroleum.

They only true salvagable way out of the environment mess we are in is through renewable enrergy resources.


Is this about Hybred Vehicles or an anti- petroleum industry/ecological protest?

If it's about Hybreds I think they are a good start at getting us away from fossil fuels and making more energy efficient transportation, and lower costs tremendously.

They may not be the end-all be-all to the situation, but as I said, it's a good start.
Jack_Hammer
Public transport is the way forward, if they have rediculous tax prices on unefficiant fuels and then use that tax to improve the public transport I believe the world would be much better off.
Lennon
The bicycle and public transport will solve everything. Just look at china.
DJHicks
Reaper wrote:
I didn't mean to attack you like that but at the time of the post I was pissed about somthing else, sorry about that. But still I don't think they should change everything just the engines.
And that total shell replacement thing, thats just the problem, a lot of people prefer to modify their cars, and even more would prefer to just buy a new car all together and drop the old one off in the chop shop.
Also that seems a bit dangerous to me, having a frame that can snap off that easily. I wouldn't want to be in a car thats frame could suddenly snap off during a car accsident would you? also cutting 8 inches off it would still make these cars hard to use for people who are taller then most.


I suppose the "shells" will come in different shapes and size but all formed around fitting on the main base (hydro engine and wheels etc)

in terms of modifying, you could still modify the shel or simply walk into a "shell" shop (lol) and order different features before u by the shell... sure there'll be after market fitments - add ons, mods etc there always are
Pyro Man
hybrid cars are a good idea. There is a university in California that use an electric car sharing system. The diesel engine is extremely dirty, but so long its not an injection it will run on anything you tip down it. It will be a shame when the combustion engine is phased out, but the earth needs it. The American engines are amazing, but the USA alone causes 25% of the worlds pollution, so things need to be changed.
DiabloTestDriver
armanandjulia wrote:
Eventually hybrid vehicles will need to be replaced by a different engine type. Currently we are based of hydrocarbons like gasoline, or derivative of petroleum.

They only true salvagable way out of the environment mess we are in is through renewable enrergy resources.


there is a problem like that :some of big countries block's to improve this technologies.Because they've done! lot's of things to have petrol.And now they don't want to see that the cost of the petrol is less than now.

in the other side big automobile companies invented extreme alternative energy technologies but they cannot produce them because of these countries' governments Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad
Reaper
Pyro Man wrote:
hybrid cars are a good idea. There is a university in California that use an electric car sharing system. The diesel engine is extremely dirty, but so long its not an injection it will run on anything you tip down it. It will be a shame when the combustion engine is phased out, but the earth needs it. The American engines are amazing, but the USA alone causes 25% of the worlds pollution, so things need to be changed.

Theres no doubt about this, we do produce a lot of pollution, but were also one of the few nations starting to realize our mistakes and correcting them. Hopefully other countrys will do the same once we develope cars that dont harm the enviroment.
eday2010
Cars that ran on garbage would be ideal. Then you solve 2 problems at once. Then we'd have a garbage shortage!

If one day, auto makers could somehow harness the technology of plasma gasification that is used in Europe to turn garbage into energy with no pollution, we'd be set. I think in 100 years we'll have cars that don't run on any kind of fossil fuel anymore, nor solar powered. We'll have something else. Until then, everyone climb in your Hummers and tell Greenpeace and the neanderthals on the left to stick it. Yay!
bgillingham
I have had my 2004 Prius since December of 2003.

Even though this car uses conventional fuel, it uses much less of it - as well as pollutes much less. When given the sad choice of alternative transportation, this seemed like the best overall choice.

I couldn't be happier with the Prius. My lifetime average has to be around 50 MPG. I was regularly getting over 60 MPG on trips to Cleveland...

The idea here is that we embrace as many of the "good" alternatives as we can. By practical limits, every vehicle can't be a hybrid.

We hope to see cleaner technologies in the future.
hristovyul
Hybrid, Nice...but is it prakticle ?

I've heard that batteries have to be changed afher about 7years, and also to my knolege the batteries for a hibrid car are $ 7000 to $ 8000 dollars. Well does it pay off. Understanding that it's enviromently friendly, but there is other means of propultion, how about fuel cell, well when do you think this will be available to the general public in 10-20 years thank you very much... the petrolium companies will not allow for any other means propultion to come out of the market unless the oil well have been sucked out dry.... And with that tought in mind ...


Twisted Evil Have a nice day


Rolling Eyes
Pyro Man
Reaper wrote:
Pyro Man wrote:
hybrid cars are a good idea. There is a university in California that use an electric car sharing system. The diesel engine is extremely dirty, but so long its not an injection it will run on anything you tip down it. It will be a shame when the combustion engine is phased out, but the earth needs it. The American engines are amazing, but the USA alone causes 25% of the worlds pollution, so things need to be changed.

Theres no doubt about this, we do produce a lot of pollution, but were also one of the few nations starting to realize our mistakes and correcting them. Hopefully other countrys will do the same once we develope cars that dont harm the enviroment.



Yes but you have only just realised. I mean a lot of Americans couldnt care less. But it is good, but it has been going on for a very long time. Many nations have fixed this but the U.S. has taken a very long time to try and fix it.
Reaper
hristovyul wrote:
Hybrid, Nice...but is it prakticle ?

I've heard that batteries have to be changed afher about 7years, and also to my knolege the batteries for a hibrid car are $ 7000 to $ 8000 dollars. Well does it pay off. Understanding that it's enviromently friendly, but there is other means of propultion, how about fuel cell, well when do you think this will be available to the general public in 10-20 years thank you very much... the petrolium companies will not allow for any other means propultion to come out of the market unless the oil well have been sucked out dry.... And with that tought in mind ...


Twisted Evil Have a nice day


Rolling Eyes

Im pretty sure those batterys do not cost 7000 to 8000 dollars, if your going to make up a number either go realistic like 300 dollars or unrealistic and go 100,000,000 dollars instead.
Also thats the point of hybrids being created, the oil wells are being sucked dry and we will run out of it soon, also oil companys cannot stop the production of enviromentially friendly cars because all products fates in america is decided by the people who buy them. you know right to sell stuff as long as its legal and all that. And pyro man your right about that, most of our american people dont give a s-h-i-t which is unfortinate.
also if you were offended by any of the above then dont read it, because im not at your house with a gun to your head making you to read my opinions.
Pyro Man
Offended? By what?You didnt say anything offensive man
DSF-Deathcycle121
eday2010 wrote:
Cars that ran on garbage would be ideal. Then you solve 2 problems at once. Then we'd have a garbage shortage!

If one day, auto makers could somehow harness the technology of plasma gasification that is used in Europe to turn garbage into energy with no pollution, we'd be set. I think in 100 years we'll have cars that don't run on any kind of fossil fuel anymore, nor solar powered. We'll have something else. Until then, everyone climb in your Hummers and tell Greenpeace and the neanderthals on the left to stick it. Yay!

But then the problem would be there would be even more polution in the air, unless they find out a way to get rid of that
Reaper
Pyro Man wrote:
Offended? By what?You didnt say anything offensive man

That was not aimed at you and it was a bad joke, it was directed to the 3 or 4 people on this forum who would read that and cry because they do think its offensive. and DSF-Deathcycle121 if its a pollution free process how would there end up being even more pollution.....??? And for the garbage thing? well its not really possible for cars given their size. But a good idea none the less.
silliman
Does anyone know the details of the U.S. ruling on tax credits (Energy Policy Act of 2005 Tax Credits) for purchase of hybrid cars?

The only information I've been able to uncover is as follows:

Hybrids placed in service after December 31, 2005, may be eligible for an income tax credit of up to $3,400 (the amount depends on the hybrid you purchase).

The credit amount will begin to phase out once a manufacturer has sold over 60,000 eligible vehicles.

When does this incentive end?

There are two ending dates for the incentive: one that applies to all vehicles and one based on manufacturer.

All vehicles must be purchased on or before December 31, 2010 to be eligible for the credit, but the credit may end sooner for some vehicles than others.

This tax credit is for vehicles “placed in service” beginning January 1, 2006, but because there is a waiting list for many hybrids, consumers can receive the tax credit if they arrange to purchase the vehicle this year as long as they do not take possession of the vehicle until January 1, 2006. This tax credit will be phased out for each manufacturer once that company has sold 60,000 eligible vehicles. At that point, the tax credit for each company’s vehicles will be gradually reduced over the course of another year.

Manufacturers must report consumer sales to IRS, and IRS will announce when a manufacturer has exceeded this sales figure.

Beginning with the second calendar quarter after the calendar quarter in which the manufacturer sells 60,000 vehicles, the credit will be 50% of the full credit amount. This part of the phase-out will last for two calendar quarters.

For the next two calendar quarters, the credit will be 25% of the full credit amount. The incentives for vehicles by that manufacturer will end thereafter.

My question is: How can I find out how many of the 60,000 hybrids have been sold by the date of my hybrid purchase. My Toyota dealer doesn't claim to have this information and doesn't know where I can go to find it.

Interesting Comparison:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/hybrid_sbs_cars.shtml

Additional Reference:
http://www.energy.gov/taxbreaks.htm
william
Hybrid vehicles are very nice. Though, they don't have enough power. I agree with someone else who said they should have a Hydrogen/Solar mix. I think it's Ireland (forgive me if I'm wrong) that's currently testing out hydrogen cars. Throw in solar, and you've got an extremly environment friendly automobile. What I wonder is, what will happen to Exxon and other gas stations if we start using hydrogen. If Hybrids is the best we can do, it's still not a clean planet. I've heard of a recent test that showed hybrids get only 40 mpg instead of 60 (EPA estimate). Actually, every car was lower than EPA estimates. So, hybrids are not as fuel efficient as you think.
Reaper
Thats an intresting question silliman unfortinatly I dont have the time to look it up seeing my only computer access at the moment is at school during one of my computer classes, but when I get the chance i'll look it up.
What will gas companys do if we switch to hydrogen what will happen to the gas stations? well they will most likely buy new pumps that deliver hydrogen instead of gasoline, same with the oil companys, they will most likey switch some of their factorys to hydrogen production too.
silliman
My 2007 Toyota Camry Hybrid that I had back ordered just arrived and boy am I a happy camper. The 2007 Toyota Camry Hybrid uses Toyota’s Hybrid Synergy Drive which means it is a true hybrid in that it can operate under electric-only, gas-engine only, or a combination of the electric motor and gas engine. I get a kick out of watching the large dashboard LCD that shows me my miles per gallon. When the electric-only kicks in, I sometimes see 60 miles per gallon.
Some have claimed that it doesn’t have enough power. Though it has considerably more space than its Camry predecessor, I am surprised (given its size and weight) that it has more than enough power to handle that average (non-sport racing) drivers’ need.
My only grumble is that I noticed the ride in the back seat is not as smooth as I would have expected from that class of vehicle. (I weight about 200 pounds, coupled with the weight of the batteries that are housed in the trunk, I think Toyota should have fortified the rear suspension a little better.)
mabuhay
if the switch to hybrid cars proves to be cost effective for most consumers then they will be common regardless of a future switch to a more effecient engine.
silliman
Hi Green Folks,
I heard on National Public Radio that Google plans to reduce poverty and global warming. The company is starting Google.org, with about $1 billion in seed money to invest in market-based solutions to fight global poverty, help budding entrepreneurs turn good business ideas into thriving enterprises, identify ways to prevent child deaths caused by poor water quality and develop alternative energy vehicles or hybrid cars. It should be interesting to see what Google can do that GM, FORD and Chrysler refuse to do.
Cheers!
zozitdat
i think its beter for the normall users
but if you see what i do whit cars
now than you beter can get a new turbo motor with 20 l motor
i race in my freetime on circuits
cx8219
Racing is one thing. Daily drivers need to burn cleaner than they do.
AutoTechGuy
Yes those battery packs cost $7000-8000 dollars...

However, they usually include a 10 year/150,000 mile warranty
silliman
I happen to live on an island in the middle of the Pacific, where one might ordinarily think that high tech initiatives would be the last place to reach. However, I am quite amazed by two recent, and very promising, developments. The first was the development of a hydrogen fuel cell research facility, a join research project funded by our local electric company, DOD and the university. The second was a news release I heard on the radio about the island’s first hydrogen fuel station. Fantastic! Even though the hydrogen fuel station is on a military base, it’s a good sign that we consumers will have a choice in alternative fuels and vehicles.
arkebuzer
right now hybrid cars are both expensive to buy and drive, since there are still few petrol stations selling alcohol or gas. And the cars using batteries and like 50/50 petrol/electricity have really expensive batteries, so the gain in cash is quite soon eaten by the extra costs when stings needs to be exchanged.

If you really care about nature and so on you might perhaps be willing to pay. But for most people these cars are quite far away.
tomahawk19
I don't know if it's been said, I kind of skimmed over the entire thing but didn't read too much in depth, but a big problem with hybrids is that the batteries that are being used will have to be changed after a few years, and the decomposition on this is worse than the decomposition of nuclear waste. Sad but true. I was talking to someone and they brought up the idea of hydrogen and electric due to the fact that you can produce immense amounts of torque with an electric motor, and hydrogen would be much more efficient. This idea came while we were talking about trucks. Essentially putting diesel to shame. And here's something a lot of ppl don't think about. Diesel engines are become more and more efficient and higher mpg vehicles, yes they may have that initial blow off, but it's better than the emissions of a gasoline powered vehicle, at least according to my sources.
silliman
arkebuzer wrote:
And the cars using batteries and like 50/50 petrol/electricity have really expensive batteries, so the gain in cash is quite soon eaten by the extra costs when stings needs to be exchanged.


Hi Arkebuzer,
I actually bought a 2007 Camry Hybrid. As you probably know, it runs on an electric motor when going slowly, but kicks into a combustion gasoline engine when speed picks up or when the gasoline engine needs to re-charge the batteries. I am actually quite happy with the vehicle. And, I didn’t take a bath on the price because the government gave as much as $3,000 in the form of a tax credit for customers who bought hybrids in 2006. So I figure I broke even. As for gas savings? Yes, I definitely am economizing. Hopefully the realized savings will defray some of the cost of battery replacement – however, that being said, I plan to trade the car in after 4 years (4 years prior to anticipated battery replacement) so that I don’t have to be the one to deal with it.

Perhaps another 8 or 10 years down the road, battery technology will have substantially improved and the economy of scales will have driven the cost down thereby making is a more practical alternative.
silliman
tomahawk19 wrote:
...a big problem with hybrids is that the batteries that are being used will have to be changed after a few years, and the decomposition on this is worse than the decomposition of nuclear waste. ...Diesel engines are become more and more efficient and higher mpg vehicles...


How’z it tomahawk19,
I find it difficult to believe that battery waste can be more toxic than nuclear waste. Notwithstanding, your point is well taken. If automobile users dramatically shift from gasoline powered engines to battery powered engines, there will definitely be environmental issues. I think the way to go, as you mentioned above, is with hydrogen fuel cells. Clean and relatively efficient.

You may be right… diesel may be the way to go until the world ramps up full tilt with hydrogen fuel cells. I’ve heard that diesel (because of the extreme compression ratio) can burn just about any fuel – including used cooking oil (flavored with by McDonald’s fries). So if each nation used a multi-prong approach that incorporated use of used oil, ethanol, Fuel from Fiber (a new technology that makes fuel from even the toughest stalk of fiber), etc., we might be less dependent on oil from refineries.
ashwinnaidu
I have seen in the Television GM Motors in china released a car uses water as fuel.
stone1343
This is the way I look at it, maybe too simplified.

We all need our cars for our lifestyles. If you believe even a bit in the Peak Oil theory, we're in for a crunch when demand exceeds supply as India & China develop. I think the theory is a bit (a lot?) alarmist, but it does make sense to me that supply can't increase as fast as demand - there's less and less of the stuff every day, and what's left is harder to use (tar sands, etc). Considering our economy runs on cheap energy, what happens when it's no longer cheap?

Depending on the study, producing ethanol consumes almost as much energy as the ethanol produces (planting, harvesting, etc). Ethanol is not a solution.

We don't currently have the infrastructure for using hydrogen as a fuel.

An electric car that you plug in doesn't seem like the solution if the electricity is generated from coal.

Solar doesn't seem viable as the only energy source.

So we're stuck with the internal combustion engine for now.

Even if you don't accept global warming as being caused by human activity, we still have smog problems.

My understanding is diesel emissions are much worse than gasoline.

So I need a gas-powered car. But it's my duty as a concerned citizen to buy the most efficient and cleanest car I can afford, which is why I just bought a hybrid. It fits my family of 4 just fine, even on long trips and I don't give anything up.

People talk about hybrid technology being more expensive, but lots of people buy standard cars more expensive than a hybrid. Basically, they do it because they want the status symbol. Of course there are needs for garbage trucks and all the rest, I'm talking about people who buy an SUV and never even see snow, or who buy $50,000+ cars.

I can't wait for the day when the hybrid is the status symbol and the SUV is an embarrassment.

Not wanting to pick a fight with the equine guy, but your example of your $7,200 Jeep isn't fair. I don't think you can buy a brand new Jeep for $7,200 today, so maybe that's what it cost years ago. Compare what you'd pay for a Jeep today. Maybe you really need it for the farm (I don't know you, and am not trying to be condescending, I'm just assuming maybe you live on a farm) and that's fine.

Of course it's impossible to justify buying a hybrid purely based on gas savings.

Anyway, I'm done
arkebuzer
silliman wrote:
arkebuzer wrote:
And the cars using batteries and like 50/50 petrol/electricity have really expensive batteries, so the gain in cash is quite soon eaten by the extra costs when stings needs to be exchanged.


Hi Arkebuzer,
I actually bought a 2007 Camry Hybrid. As you probably know, it runs on an electric motor when going slowly, but kicks into a combustion gasoline engine when speed picks up or when the gasoline engine needs to re-charge the batteries. I am actually quite happy with the vehicle. And, I didn’t take a bath on the price because the government gave as much as $3,000 in the form of a tax credit for customers who bought hybrids in 2006. So I figure I broke even. As for gas savings? Yes, I definitely am economizing. Hopefully the realized savings will defray some of the cost of battery replacement – however, that being said, I plan to trade the car in after 4 years (4 years prior to anticipated battery replacement) so that I don’t have to be the one to deal with it.

Perhaps another 8 or 10 years down the road, battery technology will have substantially improved and the economy of scales will have driven the cost down thereby making is a more practical alternative.


Hm... yeah, you have a point there. If the government helps financing the deal it might not be bad at all Very Happy
As we (obviously) both agreed the cost of exchanging batteries is a big cost, but if the government would help with tax credits (just like when you bought the car) it would maybe work quite well indeed.
I´m sure you are right about the future of car technology, but I personally think it´s quite a lot longer forward in time than just 8-10 years... And before all cars are exchanged... that will take A LOT more time. But at least we are for sure in the right direction.

Regards
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