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Pirated Software : What if we can't afford original ones





saiyeek
I am sorry to tell but it is true, every versions of my windows programs are pirated. I don't think i have ever used windows versions original or any other costly software paying price. I live in Nepal, one of developing countries of the world. Our per capita income is 240USD thats too small amount. If I ever had to pay for the softwares I wanted to use, till now it will amount many times of my yearly expenditure. Many of my countrymen use pirated softwares. Pirated software are found here are there in the market. I recently bought Windows XP Media Center Edition with 0.5 dollar, so cheap, its was pirated but it works fine and for me piracy has been only way i have been getting the softwares.
I think there should be LOW PRICE EDITION of the softwares for the people of he countries like mine, so as to lower down the piracy.
SoftStag
You cannot justify using pirated software. It is illegal and immoral. DON'T DO IT!

There really is no excuse, install freeware software. There are plenty of free Linux distributions out there and free applications to go with it. If you can't afford MS and other paid software, use the free alternatives that are out there.

If everyone who used pirated software actually paid for it, then the software manufacturers could drop the price making it more available.
matt87
That must be hard for the software companies. Either they drop the prices so people can afford it then their would be less pirating. Or raise the prices so they can cover their loss from all the pirating. Or they just keep developing new ways to limit the pirating but then the price would have to go up because they had to spend money for new technologies to get rid of the pirating problem. Its one big mess if you ask me.
Goatmonkey
Yeah I think there should be low price versions as well even if they have tu cut out some of the features. It does not make since to charge alot if people can just pirate instead. Companies should charge for some software and more should be free. Like the google pack that just came out that is a raelly good idae and other businesses should do the same kinda free bundle deal.
Animal
Goatmonkey wrote:
Yeah I think there should be low price versions as well even if they have tu cut out some of the features. It does not make since to charge alot if people can just pirate instead.


Companies should not have to cut their prices just because other people choose to steal their software.

Put yourself in their place. You work every day for several years to create a piece of software that does its job perfectly. You put it on the interet yourself for $50 - you sell a few copies, then find out hundreds or thousands of people are using the software without paying you for it. The software is "in the open" so the amount of money you make plummets.

There is no excuse for stealing software. For virtually everything (except very specialist programs or games) there is a free alternative.

Linux = Free Windows
Thunderbird = Free Outlook
Open Office = Free Microsoft Office
AVG Free = Free Norton AntiVirus

All you have to do is search Sourceforge and you'll be able to find a free version of almost anything.

If you can't afford a program, use an alternative. In many cases, the alternatives are better that the paid-versions. Sorry, but I have no sympathy for people who try to justify theft. If you really can't afford it and don't like the alternatives, do without.
izcool
I know that it may be easy for people to suggest to use alternative software titles in order to not be breaking the laws, but it's not actually a piece of cake for someone to sacrafice losing all that they know about Windows and make a huge jump over to Linux. Come on people. It's easier said than done, and I'm guessing that the author of this thread isn't even budging to make the switch. Simply just my opinion, and I'm sure there are a couple of people reading who can agree with me. I know that the free stuff is out there, but many times it contains advertisements and sponsor programs to make them free. If you download the free version of Adobe's Reader, there is a small advertisement embedded within the program, just an example off of the top.

- Mike.
SoftStag
izcool wrote:
I know that it may be easy for people to suggest to use alternative software titles in order to not be breaking the laws, but it's not actually a piece of cake for someone to sacrafice losing all that they know about Windows and make a huge jump over to Linux. Come on people. It's easier said than done, and I'm guessing that the author of this thread isn't even budging to make the switch. Simply just my opinion, and I'm sure there are a couple of people reading who can agree with me. I know that the free stuff is out there, but many times it contains advertisements and sponsor programs to make them free. If you download the free version of Adobe's Reader, there is a small advertisement embedded within the program, just an example off of the top.

- Mike.

As with everything in life, if you can't afford something, you have to make sacrfices. How would you feel if someone "borrowed" your car because they can't afford the petrol to run their own? The author of this thread can afford a PC, so he must have some income. If he can't afford to pay MS for the operating system, then he must make a sacrifice and use Linux. Not steal to have Windows. MS may be a huge, wealthy company, but they got there by producing good software that is affordable to the masses (if not everyone). You may not like the company MS, but the majority of us use their software, they are doing something right.
S3nd K3ys
I say let him run the pirated crap. Sooner or later he'll run the wrong one and *poof* he'll be infected.
SoftStag
Maybe Bondings should give his IP address to Bill Gates.
jaysen
yes im sure bill gates doesn't have enough money yet from all the "perfect" software he's put out over the years. (anyone remember 98?)

i've run pirated stuff in the past and i know both sides of the arguement...
Very simple rule to live by about pirated software. if you like the program, buy it... if you don't like it, delete it. ESPECIALLY when it comes from the little grassroots companys that are struggling to stay afloat. Those are the ones that need our money, and they are usually the ones that are actually TRYING to put out a good product without screwing thier customer base over...

don't mind me, i just have a problem with Microshafts ethics Laughing
izcool
Bill Gates was taken to court a couple of times by incorporating Internet Explorer into Windows 98. Also he's been taken to court because they think that he's running a monopoly. It's quite amazing on how he got to become a millionaire, I've done my research and it was when Paul Allen bought Q-DOS (Quick [and] Dirty Operating System) from a place called the Seattle Computer Company for $50,000, messed around with it and renamed it to MS-DOS (Microsoft Disk Operating System). He resold it to IBM for about $100.00 per copy and became an instant millionaire.

By you saying that we have to make sacrifices on such things, I can agree with you on some part, but not 100%. If he got the copy of Windows from somewhere and never paid the full amount, then he got away with it. Microsoft got really jumpy on dodgy copies of Windows when Windows XP first came out. I remember they were really strict on activation, and a couple of years later, I find out that they've lightened up on it probably because it was so intensive on their people to do the job.

To be honest, with my one Windows XP CD, I've probably used it about 30 different times and each time I got it activated. When I try to do it online (the first time) it tells me that it's no good, then to call them up. They ask me for the numbers on the screen, I tell them to the rep, and then they ask me if I used the CD before (I tell them no) and if it's the first time I'm activating this CD (I tell them yes). In a matter of a minute or so, I get it activated. Microsoft did the same thing with the Plus! Expansion packs for Windows XP. Some other comapnies tried to adopt the same idea and it worked, but with others it was easily broken into.

It's just like saying that no one done anything bad in their life. Everyone done something they shouldn't have in their life, many people with software. Yes, I've participated in some downloading like that, but I've not been doing it lately.

It doesn't necessarily mean that the author of this thread paid a couple hundred (or thousands) dollars on a PC. It's easy to pick up a machine from a local thrift store, flea market, or the garbage. I've bought a Pentium 4 1.7GHz machine at the Salvation Army the other month for $30.00 (no kidding, totally true), probably for the reason because the last owner had a password on it, and they couldn't get into it. I did my magic and got it to work. It had an 80GB hard drive and 512MB of RAM. Then I've pulled numerous computers from out of the garbage in my area (sometimes complete setups, monitor and all) that are half-way decent as well.

Just my honest opinion.

- Mike.
paul_indo
I agree that software should be sold for reasonable prices in developing countries.

I you earn US$80 or $100 a month you can not live on that and buy software.

Quote:
The author of this thread can afford a PC, so he must have some income.


Yea but what is his computer?
Is it the latest 2Ghz wiz machine or an old Pentium 100 or something like that?

Many students in Indonesia have a computer but it is very old and still for them expensive. But to help with study and education they must try to buy one. They can no way afford to pay more for an O.S than the computer cost. Then you must get all the other software.

Would any of you Americans, Australians, Europeans or whatever developed country you caome from. Would you spend a months wages on a computer then another years wages to get a bit of good software?
Or would you buy it for a couple of hours pay instead?

The thing is most of you might work for a day or so to pay for Windows O.S. would you work for two months? And how would you buy food for that two months? So it will take maybe 5 months or 6 months cause you must eat too.

I think you would buy the pirate software. Laughing Laughing
SoftStag
paul_indo wrote:
I agree that software should be sold for reasonable prices in developing countries.

I you earn US$80 or $100 a month you can not live on that and buy software.

I agree. That doesn't condone piracy.

Quote:
Quote:
The author of this thread can afford a PC, so he must have some income.


Quote:
Yea but what is his computer?
Is it the latest 2Ghz wiz machine or an old Pentium 100 or something like that?

His PC is running Windows XP Media Center Edition - I doubt that will run on a Pentium 100!

Quote:
Would any of you Americans, Australians, Europeans or whatever developed country you caome from. Would you spend a months wages on a computer then another years wages to get a bit of good software?
Or would you buy it for a couple of hours pay instead?

I would use free, legal software like Linux. Priacy is illegal. Besides, Linux runs better than Windows XP on less powerful machines.

Quote:
The thing is most of you might work for a day or so to pay for Windows O.S. would you work for two months? And how would you buy food for that two months? So it will take maybe 5 months or 6 months cause you must eat too.

I think you would buy the pirate software. Laughing Laughing

Well, actually I'm unemployed at the moment. I can't afford to buy a PC, or software for that matter. It doesn't give me the right to use pirate copies on the PC I already own.
Mizzro
Priated software, Is it really that bad? They charge so much because its they know people will pay that much for it because... its simply not easy for them to create or find a generic version of it. They make us pay so much money for it, but everyone should know it costs them so much less to make it AND pay the workers. So I say, If you want to priate it, then do it. If they want to try to steal your money, Why not try to steal their software?
Animal
Mizzro wrote:
They make us pay so much money for it, but everyone should know it costs them so much less to make it AND pay the workers. So I say, If you want to priate it, then do it. If they want to try to steal your money, Why not try to steal their software?


So by your logic, Ferrari make very expensive cars. They have plenty money, and they make a profit when they sell their products. Therefore, it's perfectly ok for me to go out and steal a Ferrari because I can't/won't spend money on it?

Sorry, but it's theft.
Daniel15
I couldn't believe this, but Microsoft has a free version of Visual Basic available! It's called Visual Basic 2005 Express Edition. I think it's their way to try and stop piracy of Visual Basic/Visual Studio.


Quote:
Our per capita income is 240USD thats too small amount

Yeah, that's a very small amount. Why should you have to pay a whole year's worth of wages just to get an operating system? You should use Linux!



Quote:
Either they drop the prices so people can afford it then their would be less pirating. Or raise the prices so they can cover their loss from all the pirating

I thought about that, it's like a chicken and egg problem. If the prices were lower, there'd be less piracy. However, all the piracy makes the prices go up. Because the prices are going up, less people can afford them, and run pirate versions. Because they are running pirate versions, the prices go even higher.......... And so on.
avk
I think That Saiyeek is telling the truth and we all must be with him in this ...........

I too am from Nepal and myself know that we cannot afford the original CDs and all the softwares I use are also Pirated. I mean totally pirated.

I am not going to leave this and will be using Piratyed softwares untill the time I get Original CD's for much more less price that i can afford...

I am also on the side of Freeware softwares.
It is much more better to download software from the net just for free than to get the CD .
RA
Comparing the theft of software to theft of physical property (like a car) is like comparing apples to oranges. A car takes time and effort to design and build. Once the design is done, it doesn't need to be done again no matter how many cars you build. However, you do need to continually put time and money into building the car.

It is obvious that the designers need to be compensated for their work. However, do they need to be compensated the full amount for every car they make? No - and they don't either - they are paid to do the design and then they are done. In the same way, software developers make the program and should be paid. However, once they are sufficiently compensated for their work, the price of more copies of software (for which the cost of production is almost nothing) should go down significantly.

P.S. While I believe that developers should be compensated for their effort (usually by payments to use their software), I think it is stupid business to charge the same price to all users. It removes people from the market that would like to buy your product, but cannot afford it at the full price.
SoftStag
RA wrote:
Comparing the theft of software to theft of physical property (like a car) is like comparing apples to oranges. A car takes time and effort to design and build. Once the design is done, it doesn't need to be done again no matter how many cars you build. However, you do need to continually put time and money into building the car.

It is obvious that the designers need to be compensated for their work. However, do they need to be compensated the full amount for every car they make? No - and they don't either - they are paid to do the design and then they are done. In the same way, software developers make the program and should be paid. However, once they are sufficiently compensated for their work, the price of more copies of software (for which the cost of production is almost nothing) should go down significantly.

P.S. While I believe that developers should be compensated for their effort (usually by payments to use their software), I think it is stupid business to charge the same price to all users. It removes people from the market that would like to buy your product, but cannot afford it at the full price.

So we should not have to pay for music, films, books either, because other than the cost of manufacture, once the artists have been paid for the production there should be no need to pay royalties.

I think this attitude sucks. You are saying that people should be paid the effort that goes in to producing software, and not for the success of it; when the success is based on how good it is.

Software houses need to keep money coming in from their software sales so they can afford to keep paying the developers to create new products to keep their software the best and ensure future sales.

Piracy is illegal, and if you get caught, you deserve everything you get for it.
galbotrix
First of all there is a difference between freeware and free software - visit www.fsf.org for the details. Secondly, I would recommend people in the developing countries to go in for free open source software(foss) . There was a time when FOSS was quite low in terms of technology compared to commercial software but not anymore. Here are some of the observations about FOSS (made by RMS) :
****************************

Quote:
My hope was that a free operating system would open a path to escape forever from the system of subjugation which is proprietary software. I had experienced the ugliness of the way of life that non-free software imposes on its users, and I was determined to escape and give others a way to escape.

Non-free software carries with it an antisocial system that prohibits cooperation and community. You are typically unable to see the source code; you cannot tell what nasty tricks, or what foolish bugs, it might contain. If you don't like it, you are helpless to change it. Worst of all, you are forbidden to share it with anyone else. To prohibit sharing software is to cut the bonds of society.Today we have a large community of users who run GNU, Linux and other free software. Thousands of people would like to extend this, and have adopted the goal of convincing more computer users to "use free software". But what does it mean to "use free software"? Does that mean escaping from proprietary software, or merely installing free programs alongside it? Are we aiming to lead people to freedom, or just introduce them to our code? In other words, are we working for freedom, or have we replaced that goal with the shallow goal of popularity?

It's easy to get in the habit of overlooking this distinction, because in many common situations it makes no difference. When you're trying to convince a person to try a free program, or to install the GNU/Linux operating system, either goal would lead to the same practical conduct. However, in other situations the two goals inspire very different actions.
For instance, what should we say when the non-free Invidious video driver, the non-free Prophecy database, or the non-free Indonesia language interpreter and libraries, is released in a version that runs on GNU/Linux? Should we thank the developers for this "support" for our system, or should we regard this non-free program like any other--as an attractive nuisance, a temptation to accept bondage, a problem to be solved?

If you take as your goal the increased popularity of certain free software, if you seek to convince more people to use some free programs some of the time, you might think those non-free programs are helpful contributions to that goal. It is hard to dispute the claim that their availability helps make GNU/Linux more popular. If the widespread use of GNU or Linux is the ultimate goal of our community, we should logically applaud all applications that run on it, whether free or not.

But if our goal is freedom, that changes everything. Users cannot be free while using a non-free program. To free the citizens of cyberspace, we have to replace those non-free programs, not accept them. They are not contributions to our community, they are temptations to settle for continuing non-freedom.

There are two common motivations to develop a free program. One is that there is no program to do the job. Unfortunately, accepting the use of a non-free program eliminates that motivation. The other is the will to be free, which motivates people to write free replacements for non-free programs. In cases like these, that motive is the only one that can do the job. Simply by using a new and unfinished free replacement, before it technically compares with the non-free model, you can help encourage the free developers to persevere until it becomes superior.Those non-free programs are not trivial. Developing free replacements for them will be a big job; it may take years. The work may need the help of future hackers, young people today, people yet to be inspired to join the work on free software. What can we do today to help convince other people, in the future, to maintain the necessary determination and persistance to finish this work?

The most effective way to strengthen our community for the future is to spread understanding of the value of freedom--to teach more people to recognize the moral unacceptability of non-free software. People who value freedom are, in the long term, its best and essential defense.

***************************

rgds

Sameer
dcshoes23
If they made different prices for different people, wouldn't everyone just try to get it for the cheapest price?
Rocky3478
Even if you can't afford it, that is NO excuse to break the law. If you can't afford it, wait to use it until you can afford it, or find an alternative. If everyone would just obey the law, then the whole world would be a much better place. Smile
nealio1000
see i know pirated software is wrong but some software does cost alot. such as autodesk programs. I use them for education but i don't have a spare $1000 in my pocket.
SoftStag
nealio1000 wrote:
see i know pirated software is wrong but some software does cost alot. such as autodesk programs. I use them for education but i don't have a spare $1000 in my pocket.

There are "educational" versions of a lot of software, including Windows XP, Office, etc. You have to "qualify" to purchase them, but if you are a student, teacher, etc. you can get this software. It is exactly the same, only cheaper, and you are limited to using it for non-commercial use. That said, if you are genuinely needing it for educational perposes that is not a problem.
Animal
SoftStag wrote:
That said, if you are genuinely needing it for educational perposes that is not a problem.


Sorry, but being a student does not exempt you from the law. There are educational licenses available for almost all Autodesk programs - if you can't afford them then you'll need to use the copies in your educational establishment. If they don't have the software in your establishment, then you don't need the software at all.
Talk2Tom11
I hear that microsoft is going to make 7 different versions of Windows Vista. This way people with different incomes can buy the best one for their wallet.

I feel it is a smart idea. Because there are some people out there that use pirated software because they can;t afford the real one, and they would by the real one if they could afford it.

Hopefully this works for microsoft and it stops a lot of priacy.
bboy_nycb
The best way to avoid using pirated software is to migrate to the free ones.
For instance, more and more people are surfing with firefox. A great deal of free softwares are compiled so they can run under windows XP for instance.
kansloos
SoftStag wrote:
You cannot justify using pirated software. It is illegal and immoral. DON'T DO IT!

There really is no excuse, install freeware software. There are plenty of free Linux distributions out there and free applications to go with it. If you can't afford MS and other paid software, use the free alternatives that are out there.

If everyone who used pirated software actually paid for it, then the software manufacturers could drop the price making it more available.


Do you think really think they would drop the prices?!
They'll just put the xtra cash in there pockets, as everybody buys the
software anyway.
KHO
Hey, didn't Microsoft release the budget windows for about $50? Neutral And you know, pirating software to an extent isn't bad, l do it just to trial the crap out, half the time, a program l would pay $40 for ends up being deleated because it wasn't worth the HDD space Neutral. The fact is, that a lot of the big companies really don't care that much about the pirating Neutral, even if the pirating ceased, their prices would stay the same and then they would be filthy rich! Did you know, Microsoft makes about 7x what they made selling evey OS they released, each year by releasing a new Office? Do you really think they care if you pirate a single copy, or even if 700 people pirate a copy? The big buisnesses still have to have legit copys of everything or the IRS will come a runnin. The common household pirate doesn't affect the market at all Neutral.

Now, if you could pirate Bill Gates stock, that would trash the market Neutral.
Animal
KHO wrote:
The fact is, that a lot of the big companies really don't care that much about the pirating Neutral, even if the pirating ceased, their prices would stay the same and then they would be filthy rich!


So you're saying it's ok to steal software because the guys who make it are rich? No. It's never ok to steal.

There's a rich guy living a few houses away from me... maybe I could steal his car, his TV and his Hi-Fi. When I get caught by the police, I could explain that he's rich so it doesn't matter... I would probably just get away with a warning.

Rolling Eyes

Pirates, eh? Laws don't apply?
PureSimpleNatural
I used to think I would have to use pirated software for all the stuff I couldn't afford...

But there's enough out there that's open-sourced & free that nothing on my system is illegal anymore.

Take a look around, you might be surprised.

(And Linux ISN'T that difficult to learn, especially with the newer interfaces available).
eday2010
A couple years ago Bill Gates said that nobody should be pirating software. But if they were, he'd prefer if it was his. I guess so that there are more people using Microsoft product. I am happy to oblige him Very Happy
DCLXVI
I use linux, y cuz itz free. I think the US government should have broken Microsoft a long time ago. By law they are supposed to break up monopolies so stuff like this doesnt happen, but our government is corrupt and the citizens dont want to fix it, because we are living with a higher standard of living than everyone else. I support pirating software and using pirated software, because people shouldnt charge other people for thoughts. If it was something physical like a car or house, i wouldnt support stealing it or anything, but software should be free, so should books. The forum we are typing on right now was distributed free wasnt it? so why cant everyone do that?
flashmoto
The software companies can't drop the prices of their software in one country because then here's what would happen.
People living in that country would buy the software for real cheap and sell it on ebay or something similar. No one would pay the full price and just get the cheap versions from the countries with low prices. Having diffrent versions may help but that's already out there. Let's take microsoft office as an example. There are multiple versions of it. If you can't afford pro then buy student version. If you can't afford any of them then get open office.

I know it would be hard to swich fully to linux. Most of the programs and such work on windows only. But, just because you can't afford it doesn't give you the right to steal it.
{name here}
Linux's downfall is the people who develop for it. They're too damn lazy to provide the binaries, and the average user dispises compiling(in fact I as a developer dispise compiling anything but my own work) & does not care about them. Sources end up wasting more space then the application itself, and are a waste of time.
Helios
Well, there's always an alternative as mentioned before me.

I also can't afford many things, therefore I use Linux as my operating system.

Just to mention, {name here}, what you've just said isn't a downfall at all. It's actually an advantage that Linux has a whole community of developers.
Million people are less lazy than 1000 employees at M1cr0soft.
Actually, that's one of the reasons Linux has less viruses.

But that's not the topic here.

To the poster: Try using Linux or any other Free Software operating system.
Marx
my view on piracy is that their shouldn't be any. and as for getting the programs you need, all everyone else needs is more charitys, that would take a immense load off.
SoftStag
DCLXVI wrote:
I use linux, y cuz itz free. I think the US government should have broken Microsoft a long time ago. By law they are supposed to break up monopolies so stuff like this doesnt happen, but our government is corrupt and the citizens dont want to fix it, because we are living with a higher standard of living than everyone else. I support pirating software and using pirated software, because people shouldnt charge other people for thoughts. If it was something physical like a car or house, i wouldnt support stealing it or anything, but software should be free, so should books. The forum we are typing on right now was distributed free wasnt it? so why cant everyone do that?

I'm sure you wouldn't take a job as a software developer, or write a book, if you knew that your efforts would not be rewarded financially. The fact is we all need money to live, and people choose to write software for a living. If they don't get paid, they won't do the job, so the software won't exist. If the software is given away free, who is going to pay the developers?
Xeniczone
I think there is no excuse.

with plenty of free OSes out there you shouldn't even have to do pirateing.

Mac OS and Windows OS are currently the most compadible and easist oses to use. But linux will let you do the same thing. that these can do and is still very user frendly. You should even do some research on ReAct OS this is a fan made windows os. Runs windows apps. without the windows FOR FREE. it even works with drivers. And if your so poor my I ask how did you get the computer?
mckenneth
in my opinion, piracy isnt a gud thing... and never was.. but for this nepal guy... I think wut the company shuld do is to... lower the price in poor countries to avoid piracy... people are pushed to do piracy because they culdnt aford the original once...and if they lower the price... then this poor people wuld juz buy em rather than pirate em.. (i think)
Citizen Kane
What I read here is that the moderators and a very short list of other people are totally against pirating. Understandable. This subject has two sides to the story. Theft is and always will be theft. whoever commits it or whatever is stolen.

But the other side of the story is that MS PRETENDS they develop software for EVERYBODY. If you look at it that way their attitude isn't fair or correct, 'cause there are a lot of people who CANNOT afford products from MS. And probably never will. As such might be the case of the initial poster.

I also agree that pirating would be banned pretty much if people could buy a copy of MS Software, for instance win XP, for about Ä 50,-. As a poor student, having to pay Ä 350,- for a cd with just a couple of 0's and 1's, this IS and probably WILL be always OUTRAGEOUS! Even normal families here in the netherlands use pirated software. and why? the COMMON opinion is that prices are just to damn high! and whe're one of the wheltiest countries in Europe!!!

another reason piracy is that open source software is not for everybody. Try to put Linux on a computer if you've never been using it before. or if you are a noob to pc's. There's allways smoebody in your neighborhood who knows how to install XP on the contrary. I haven't come across many students in my college or hometown(and thats a fairly big here) how really KNOW how GNO and freeware stuff works. And then there's compatibility problem. I will not even talk about that.
Zuwiki
Ok, you see, the problem is, as I see it (which is quite a hindered perspective) is Microsoft. They make expensive software, and since they completely dominate the market (except for something like 14% Linux and Mac) they can price their (crappy) software however they want and people will buy it because that's all they know about. Then they make it hard for people to write useful programs and illegal to change their software to make it easier to write useful programs. If you don't believe me, spend 1 week writing a single Windows program, then try to do the same program in Linux.

So, since it is so hard and the market only knows how to pull out thier plastic and pay for expensive software, the software developers can also put unreasonable prices on their software, especially if it is from another giant like Adobe or Autodesk. So the common populace is unaware of the COMPLETELY free (both as in freedom and as in no money) alternatives that are just as good if not better (better in my opinion) than the expensive stuff.

So more creative people (who could be very constructive if they used Linux instead of Windows) find ways to make that expensive software available for free or little cost to everyone else. They are often either criminals at heart or they really should be a Linux user.

Anyway, the practical solution to software piracy is Linux. Yep, that little penguin will take away all your troubles...
oskuro
SoftStag wrote:
You cannot justify using pirated software. It is illegal and immoral. DON'T DO IT!

There really is no excuse, install freeware software. There are plenty of free Linux distributions out there and free applications to go with it. If you can't afford MS and other paid software, use the free alternatives that are out there.

If everyone who used pirated software actually paid for it, then the software manufacturers could drop the price making it more available.


U dont download Mp3, DvDScreeners, Pc Games, Play2/psp/Ds/XboX.... games, etc....??

I cant believe it Rolling Eyes
orcaz
I think that MS should be more considerate of pple in developing countries. They should at least drop their prices of their OS in developing countries. Not everybody can afford $200, as in developing countries, it may mean a few months or a year's pay, as compared to developed countries which is onli like maybe less than 10% of your monthly pay to many of you out there. The price of their OS is just a bomb to those living in developing countries. Just because no other OS is as popular or as good as theirs, it doesn't mean that they can charge as much as they want to bombard the people. $200 is seriously very expensive... I mean piracy is of course illegal, but it is partially or mostly MS fault. I think they should rather have a softer approach like dropping prices as compared to harder approaches like hardening the software from piracy, as powerful hackers will surely find a way to hack it again... No software or method is foolproof. MS is earning like millions or billions, and you say it can't afford to just lower the prices for poorer people????
oskuro
But if u download mp3s, dvd-screeners, etc... if its for your own use, its legal, at least here in spain Wink

About software yeah, i never have paid for a window$ distribution, always downloaded all, and i will never of course pay 300Ä for a window$ version.

Otherwise, i buy some games i think are worth it to pay for, and some specific software sometimes, but 1st many times i download pirate version(which is exactly the same as the one u buy except u dont have manuals in paper...), and if i really like and need that software and support etc, i buy it.

But im sure EVERYONE downloads Mp3,films, and games(say games for pc,or ps2,xbox.....).

Unless you are rich of course, if i were rich and had the money that michael jordan, allen iverson or all those guys have, i would buy everything too heh Laughing
Animal
oskuro wrote:
But im sure EVERYONE downloads Mp3,films, and games(say games for pc,or ps2,xbox.....).

Unless you are rich of course, if i were rich and had the money that michael jordan, allen iverson or all those guys have, i would buy everything too heh Laughing


I don't. And I'm not rich either. It's called honesty - I don't break the law because I want something but can't afford it. If I'm a bit short of cash at the end of the month, I wait till I'm paid next month then go out and buy a CD that I want.

It is absolutely ridiculous that you think it's ok to steal something because you can't afford to buy it. Ok, if you were poor, living on the streets and couldn't afford to eat, it would probably be OK for you to steal a loaf of bread to stay alive, but the fact you can afford a computer means that you don't fit into this category. It also means that stealing software, music, movies, games etc. is inexcusable.

Have you tried Open Source? Like Linux etc? You may be pleasantly surprised, but if you don't like it, buy your software rather than stealing it.

And by the way...
oskuro wrote:
But if u download mp3s, dvd-screeners, etc... if its for your own use, its legal, at least here in spain

No it's not legal - it's covered by EU Anti-Piracy laws.
oskuro
Animal wrote:
oskuro wrote:
But im sure EVERYONE downloads Mp3,films, and games(say games for pc,or ps2,xbox.....).

Unless you are rich of course, if i were rich and had the money that michael jordan, allen iverson or all those guys have, i would buy everything too heh Laughing


I don't. And I'm not rich either. It's called honesty - I don't break the law because I want something but can't afford it. If I'm a bit short of cash at the end of the month, I wait till I'm paid next month then go out and buy a CD that I want.

It is absolutely ridiculous that you think it's ok to steal something because you can't afford to buy it. Ok, if you were poor, living on the streets and couldn't afford to eat, it would probably be OK for you to steal a loaf of bread to stay alive, but the fact you can afford a computer means that you don't fit into this category. It also means that stealing software, music, movies, games etc. is inexcusable.

Have you tried Open Source? Like Linux etc? You may be pleasantly surprised, but if you don't like it, buy your software rather than stealing it.

And by the way...
oskuro wrote:
But if u download mp3s, dvd-screeners, etc... if its for your own use, its legal, at least here in spain

No it's not legal - it's covered by EU Anti-Piracy laws.



U NEVER copied a VHS, cd, dvd, mp3, song, software.... never never never??wow man impressive really, people like you are difficult to find, how honest Wink

Well, here in spain, we have a group of other THIEVES called SGAE:

http://www.sgae.es/sgae.inm?selectedMenu=-1

they put a canon in everything they can, almost, they go to weddings and if they are playing music without canon autorizathion, they order em to pay em!! This group in spain is very hated, by users and authors of music also, and so on.

If i had to pay for all the music i have....

I just download some music, software not many, cause im a programmer, and i only need some specific programs, and yes i know how hard is to make code, really Smile

But dont call people thieves.

Here in spain, if u download a film, and if itīs for PERSONAL USE, its LEGAL, i know it from first hand, i just download a film, i watch it, and erase it.

Yes, i have tried open source, linux and so, i use it too, but the standard is windows, for almost everything and i use programming programs that run under windows, linux i use it for other things.

By the way, we should tell how old are we, to just give a perspective to the answers of this post too, and the country u live in Smile

Im 23 years old, from Spain.

Well, i will want to say many things about this, but only know how to explain well in spanish, in english quite difficult Sad

cya

If u know spanish, read this:

http://www.nosoypirata.com/index.php?page_id=6

Translation of a part of that text:

Quote:

Copia Privada

Segķn la Ley de Propiedad Intelectual una obra ya divulgada puede ser reproducida sin autorizaciůn del autor cuando dicha reproducciůn se hace "para uso privado del copista" y siempre que la copia no sea objeto de utilizaciůn colectiva ni lucrativa.

Por tanto, un usuario particular no tiene que solicitar autorizaciůn del autor/es de una obra musical o audiovisual cada vez que graba la misma para su propio uso, y sin que vaya a ser objeto de negocio.
Fuente: SGAE



Resuming: An user DOESNT NEED authorization from author/s of music/films, each time he does a copy for his own use and if user is not going to earn money with it.


U can read many info in that page, in spain works that way these things.




Try to do this test:

http://www.nosoypirata.com/soyunpirata.php


Translating test wait....

Quote:

1.Do u download music of films?

No i dont.
Yes i do

2.When u download these music and films, u record em to Cdrs/Dvds, go to the street and sell them??

Yes
No

3.If u download films or music, u use to give it as a gift to a friend?

Yes
No, i seel it to my friend.


4.If u download music or films, u use them to listen/watch in your particular entorn(house or whatever its said Wink)

Yes
No, i sell it.


5.If u download music or films, u put that in a commecial radio??

Yes
No


6.If u download music, u have several people to distribute it by all your country???

Yes, and outside my countrie too.
Yes, only my country.
No


7.If you are the owner of a great mediatic enterprise, u download music from internet and when u program it in your tv, u pay author rights??

Yes i pay religiously author rights
No i dont pay it.
Im not owner of a great mediatic enterprise


8.How many tittles u have in your music collection??

1 - 100
100 - 1000
1000 - 10000
Buffff many


9. U rent films in a film-rent(blockbuster), and later you make a copy??

Yes, for private use.
Yes for making many copies and sell them
No i dont rent

.
10.You sail through the caribean sea or others, attacking other ships, stealing other people money, etc??(I suck translating i know, it means if u act like a pirate in caribean sea Smile)

Yes
No, and i dont have a patch in my eye
I dont donwload music and im scared of ships barcos.


Well, u can make test with that i think Wink

Copy/paste here the result of your tests, i can resume what they say, cya


I answered:


1.b
2.b
3.a
4.a
5.b
6.c
7.c
8.c
9.a
10.b

Result:

Im not a pirate. Rolling Eyes
SoftStag
Animal wrote:
oskuro wrote:
But im sure EVERYONE downloads Mp3,films, and games(say games for pc,or ps2,xbox.....).

Unless you are rich of course, if i were rich and had the money that michael jordan, allen iverson or all those guys have, i would buy everything too heh Laughing


I don't. And I'm not rich either. It's called honesty - I don't break the law because I want something but can't afford it. If I'm a bit short of cash at the end of the month, I wait till I'm paid next month then go out and buy a CD that I want.

It is absolutely ridiculous that you think it's ok to steal something because you can't afford to buy it. Ok, if you were poor, living on the streets and couldn't afford to eat, it would probably be OK for you to steal a loaf of bread to stay alive, but the fact you can afford a computer means that you don't fit into this category. It also means that stealing software, music, movies, games etc. is inexcusable.

Have you tried Open Source? Like Linux etc? You may be pleasantly surprised, but if you don't like it, buy your software rather than stealing it.

And by the way...
oskuro wrote:
But if u download mp3s, dvd-screeners, etc... if its for your own use, its legal, at least here in spain

No it's not legal - it's covered by EU Anti-Piracy laws.

Well said Animal. And no, I don't download MP3s, games etc. without paying for them. I'm not rich either, but I beleive that if a software developer, or artist, spends time creating something, then you should pay for it, unless of course they are offering it for free. If more people paid for software, films and music, then they would ultimately become cheaper. MS software may be expensive, but it is the best, if it's not then why pirate it?

Piracy is a selfish act, anyone who does it deserves to get caught.
Animal
oskuro wrote:
I just download some music, software not many, cause im a programmer, and i only need some specific programs, and yes i know how hard is to make code, really Smile


But this is absolutely no excuse. You say that you're a programmer and that gives you the right to pirate software? NOTHING gives you the right to pirate anything.

As a programmer, you should realise that this is wrong. How would you feel if you invested a lot of your own time, money and effort to create a new program then tried to sell it to make a small profit and you found out that hundreds and thousands of people were getting it for free? You would be getting no money out of it - I guess you'd be pretty mad. This is the same for Microsoft - the fact they are a big company making a lot of money makes no difference. They started as a small operation, working hard on software to make a small profit.

Also, the links you provided - who made them? The EU Anti-Piracy board? I don't think so. Try going into a Police station and telling them what mp3s, films and software you illegally downloaded and see how easy it is for them to give you a test to check if you're a pirate.

I'm sorry, but people like you who illegally download files deserve to be sued. And arrested.
Stubru Freak
Let's be fair:
Real stealing is different from piracy.

With real stealing, the person you steal from loses something.

However with piracy instead of open-source, everyone gains except the open-source community. That's right. Also Microsoft.

Consider this:
If you have an illegal copy of Windows, you STILL have a copy of Windows, so Microsoft gains market share. So if you ever start developing software, you will probably do it for Windows. So Microsoft Windows gains strength, as more software is available for their OS.

If you use Linux however, Microsoft doesn't get a single buck either, but your future software will be optimized for Linux. Linux gains strength, Microsoft loses strength.

So I'm sure Microsoft wants people to use pirated copies of Windows rather then Linux.

So the only thing left is the law:
But does any of you know the law in Nepal?
Exactly.
Maybe there isn't anything about this in their law at all.

Only disadvantage is that you aren't supporting the open-source community this way, but you are supporting it even less by buying Windows.
oskuro
Animal wrote:
oskuro wrote:
I just download some music, software not many, cause im a programmer, and i only need some specific programs, and yes i know how hard is to make code, really Smile


But this is absolutely no excuse. You say that you're a programmer and that gives you the right to pirate software? NOTHING gives you the right to pirate anything.

As a programmer, you should realise that this is wrong. How would you feel if you invested a lot of your own time, money and effort to create a new program then tried to sell it to make a small profit and you found out that hundreds and thousands of people were getting it for free? You would be getting no money out of it - I guess you'd be pretty mad. This is the same for Microsoft - the fact they are a big company making a lot of money makes no difference. They started as a small operation, working hard on software to make a small profit.

Also, the links you provided - who made them? The EU Anti-Piracy board? I don't think so. Try going into a Police station and telling them what mp3s, films and software you illegally downloaded and see how easy it is for them to give you a test to check if you're a pirate.

I'm sorry, but people like you who illegally download files deserve to be sued. And arrested.



Those links are FACTS here in spain.

There has been MANY PUBLIC manifestations, going into SGAEīS offices, and in the front door, with a laptop(portatil pc or whatever its called), and telling police before about they were going to download music and films there, they did, and no one said anything.

POLICE CAN DO N-O-T-H-I-N-G unless u make profit of those downloads, so u can go to wherever u want here in spain, call police, swat, or whoever u want, and they will do nothing, cause they cant.

PRIVATE USE itīs legal here in spain, if u dont live here dont say anything about that, cause here private use itīs legal, and law cant do NOTHING.

yeah, people like me, who just download anime, films to watch em 1 time and erase, and software(maybe less than 5 programs a year), should be arrested yeah.... i will have to learn from you, a very honest citizen who never downloaded anything Rolling Eyes

I dont want to make any discussion about this, its just the fact that here itīs legal, software of course not, but i am not downloading 999999 programs a year, as i said, i just download 5 or less a year, and between those 5, i buy the one i really like/need. I never said that like im a programmer, that give me the right to download sw, so dont invent Wink

And adding, the most i download, mainly, are mp3 and films, just that, forget about software, and here, in spain, i repeat again for 99999 time, itīs LEGAL.

So please, stop sending me to prison.... or if u going to, prepare the moon, mars, jupiter.... cause there wont be physicall space to put us all in jail.

Maybe where u leave its a pirate act downloading mp3, films, and they send people to jail and torture them, and burn them or whatever, but not here, so please dont generalize, law is not the same in every country, get informed before talking, all the info in the links i put, are veridic, and its in the law of the country, so.... Rolling Eyes

Itīs very nice to say here no one downloads nothing and everybody is a good citizen, go every sunday to pray, etc.... but the reality in many cases is another.

Bye bye, im not angry really, just saying this, because i think u dont know how is the law here in SPAIN and i wanted to inform u.

Cya.
gunnarr
but what if you wouldn't "steal" his car, TV and hi-fi. What if you could copy it? I often hear the arguments "you wouldn't steal someones car", but if i could copy a brand-new state-of-the-art BMW with one mouseclick ,iīd do it. Of course, piracy isn't okay if someone is poor. But let's look at the facts. People wouldn't buy the software anyway if it weren't pirated. Like my version of GTA, i wouldn't ever have bought the game, but because i found it for free i played for a week or two. So it doesn't count that much...

I think law enforcement should focus their attention to the real criminals, to the rapists and murderes instead of chasing after those who copy computer-data "illegally".
{name here}
A person I know from the internet always said this when piracy was the topic(NOTE: This is paraphrased. His name has been changed to Mister X for the purposes of this quote.):
Mister X wrote:
I'm not pirating software. I'm downloading pirated software, and thus, I am not committing piracy.

This is not what he said, but I believe that is what he said. If I find the quote I'll edit this post and tag it on the bottom.
prongs_386
I say in terms of software, try it out, and then pay if the software is good. I have aquired many things off the internet which would be pirated but the fact is, alot of the products arent even sold in my country and i don't see trial periods on software such as visual studio .net. I wouldnt buy that product without trying it first and for somone who doesnt have access to that the only way to try it out is to get it illegally. If I'm happy with a software, I will pay for it.
Xcelerate
Piracy is wrong. What really bugs me is when I save up a few hundred dollars for some software, working hard for it (okay, actually it's birthdays) and then some kid asks me what I think of the software and he just downloads it for free! What an idiot!

I've programmed a few things and I no that even a small program is well over 5,000 lines of code, and each line must be painstakingly debugged and tested. That takes time out of my life, and for people doing that for a living, those who just download it without paying is terrible. They are downloading someone's hours and hours of work like it was nothing, claiming, they'll never know the difference, or everyone else is doing it, or I wouldn't have enough money to pay for it anyway so the difference is the same.

I could go on for pages ranting about those idiots. Mad
ashik
Not being able to afford a professional software is no excuse to break the law. Piracy is against the law. Just imagine yourself in th eplace of the software developers. Pirated copies of it circulating around... and you don't get what you put in your hard work for... If you can't afford it, go for an alternative...

There are always free alternatives to whatever software you need. Opensource software are available for almost anything you look for... You could switch to Linux instead of using Windows. It is not that hard to make the switch once you get the hang of it. Just search the web for any software you need... You can get a free or opensource version....
megamass
i use pirated soft, because i am not able to afford legal one. so what i have to do? sit with linux and use paint? no way... i able to use this soft, so i use. when someone will give me legal soft, or i will be able to efford it, i will use it. but still i am a student, i don't think about legal soft. democraty is all over the world, so why we cant use pirated soft? and why we should use. the only purpose i can see is - support from these companies. but if you want upgrade your version, they simple says - buy it. like me and my friend says, no money, no problem. so feel free of using piprated soft...
{name here}
megamass wrote:
i use pirated soft, because i am not able to afford legal one. so what i have to do? sit with linux and use paint? no way... i able to use this soft, so i use. when someone will give me legal soft, or i will be able to efford it, i will use it. but still i am a student, i don't think about legal soft. democraty is all over the world, so why we cant use pirated soft? and why we should use. the only purpose i can see is - support from these companies. but if you want upgrade your version, they simple says - buy it. like me and my friend says, no money, no problem. so feel free of using piprated soft...

Every line of code a programmer puts his sweat and blood into, tediously debugging and fixing code for an end product. Those who write free software, some rivaling professional products, are not bothered by that. Other than supporting the company and showing you truely like that company, buying software shows that you care about how much work that programmer has put into it.
drkarthi
I search the net and do my best to get free softwares. I live in India. The problem is its extremly hard to get original softwares here other than downloading from net and money transfer from here is not safe.
tuncay
There is NO debate over this topic.

Pirating software is illegal, and out of discussion. One might offer just as the original offer did, some low priced copies of the software but that's left to the company's decision.

The fact that there's no debate does NOT mean that there is no solution. There is a beautiful, yet unexplored solution to this problem: "Free software". Free software comes in every flavor, operating systems, and all types of end user software.

GNU/Linux, Open Solaris etc. are the operating systems you can use, and there are different types of distributions for skilled users to non-skilled ones.

For office like applications there is OpenOffice.org,say, for DC++ there is vankutta, and for many other applications there is an open source (and free) solution.

I would be willing to help any user that wants to switch to free software.
oskuro
Well i agree, downloading software is illegal, what im very surprised, is that here everyone that defends it, seems to NEVER have downloaded any mp3,dvd-screener, dont have sat channels decripted illegally..... wow, very honest people??Hmmmmm Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
SoftStag
It seems to me that people fall in to one of the following groups, those who think:
1) Piracy is illegal, and should not be tollerated
2) Piracy is OK, download anything even though it is illegal it causes no harm
3) Piracy is OK if you can't afford the software
4) Piracy is OK to try software so long as you buy anything you find useful.

Whilst I firmly sit in the No 1 camp, I can understand the views of No 4 though. I think this brings an interesting angle that non-open source software manufacturers should consider. Software is expensive, and most people who buy software do so after recommendations, reading reviews etc., but there is nothing like actually trying the software. I beleive more software companies should put thier money where their mouth is and offer fully funcional free trials of there software that they can use for at least a month, after which time the product must be activated and paid for for it to continue to work.
megamass
Everyone says illegal soft is devil, but i gues they also have illegal soft, more or less of it. and they enjoyed using it when they got it. i see no problem with pirating. if have a chance to get something cheaper - use that chance. internet is full of illegal soft, so what? should we ban internet?
Xeniczone
You guys are sick.

Illegalware
You will download every type of software you can get your hands on as long as you save yourself a good 500 dollars your happy.

Lets see you have stolen windows (150 dollars) you have stolen ms Office (140 dollars) just for those too you have stolen 290dollars.

Ok, You have just stolen 290 dollars behind peoples back. Now take that public. Goto a bank and useing a gun hold it up for 290 dollars. You would be arrested. Just because the police don't know you stole 290 dollars to get this software you are still commiting a illegal act.

As mentioned before there is no excuse.

Darwin is free.
Darwin is a type of linux so you can get a type of Linux you like for free.


Should their be low price software for poor contries
No, Their should not be low priced software this would distroy companies. For people like you who like to get the most out of their money they would have the cheap software imported so they wouldn't have to spend so much.
Here is a good example. You live in Hadi. A poor country. Windows there cost 30 dollars. Windows here in the US cost 150 dollars. Lets say I want to buy the new windows would I buy it here for 150 or buy it there for 30 and pay probably 45 dollars shipping. Hmm, I just paid 75 dollars for software I would have to pay 150 dollars. Though microsoft just lost 120 dollars of the deal. Opps. Do that about 1000 times and microsoft is going down hill. (remember Microsoft isn't rich the president bill gates is not the company.)
Billwaa
izcool wrote:
I know that it may be easy for people to suggest to use alternative software titles in order to not be breaking the laws, but it's not actually a piece of cake for someone to sacrafice losing all that they know about Windows and make a huge jump over to Linux. Come on people. It's easier said than done, and I'm guessing that the author of this thread isn't even budging to make the switch. Simply just my opinion, and I'm sure there are a couple of people reading who can agree with me. I know that the free stuff is out there, but many times it contains advertisements and sponsor programs to make them free. If you download the free version of Adobe's Reader, there is a small advertisement embedded within the program, just an example off of the top.

- Mike.


the problem is that if they don't even have a OS, how can that search online of all these freeware?
{name here}
Quote:
No, Their should not be low priced software this would distroy companies. For people like you who like to get the most out of their money they would have the cheap software imported so they wouldn't have to spend so much.
Here is a good example. You live in Hadi. A poor country. Windows there cost 30 dollars. Windows here in the US cost 150 dollars. Lets say I want to buy the new windows would I buy it here for 150 or buy it there for 30 and pay probably 45 dollars shipping. Hmm, I just paid 75 dollars for software I would have to pay 150 dollars. Though microsoft just lost 120 dollars of the deal. Opps. Do that about 1000 times and microsoft is going down hill. (remember Microsoft isn't rich the president bill gates is not the company.)

There is still Ballmer and other executives who make a killing, though they don't have as much. A marketing strategy that microsoft used for the xBox 360 actually makes them go down in profit, but they gain it back with the games.


If any of you know sweedish, or can use a sweedish online translator, please feel free to discuss this at a place of real pirates with motives and reasoning they would be happy to share at http://piratbyran.org
ashik
megamass wrote:
i use pirated soft, because i am not able to afford legal one. so what i have to do? sit with linux and use paint? no way... i able to use this soft, so i use. when someone will give me legal soft, or i will be able to efford it, i will use it. but still i am a student, i don't think about legal soft. democraty is all over the world, so why we cant use pirated soft? and why we should use. the only purpose i can see is - support from these companies. but if you want upgrade your version, they simple says - buy it. like me and my friend says, no money, no problem. so feel free of using piprated soft...


What do you mean sit with linux and use paint? Linux is a full-fledged operating system, that you can do in linux whatever you can do in Windows? Play games? Programming? Web Surfing? Graphics? Music or Video?...... What do you want ot do? It's all possible in Linux!!
Whether you are working on Linux or Windows or whatever operating system you can get your hands on, free or opensource softwares are always available for whatever you want to do.. Of course, you might have to make a few sacrifices like a few ads in some cases... But that is no excuse to use pirated software.
anthonygerbils
yeah i totaly agree that piracy is completly wrong but for linux most of the programs that are free wont work on it as most are made for windows
Arnie
Luxury cars: what if we can't afford legal ones
The solution: take them for free by force, against the manufacturer's will?

That is the essence of the discussion. If something is too expensive for you to buy, do you have the moral right to illegaly take it for free?
lukeropro
Piracy is wrong and immoral and illegal! You can get arrested if found buying pirated software! If you cannot afford it, use other alternatives. If there's no other alternatives, save up bit by bit and eventually you'll get the money! Adobe has programmed its software such that you need to activate it so they'll check if you used pirated software. And just because the makers of the software are rich doesn't mean you can buy pirated copies of their software! When I went to china, you can see stands selling pirated software at very cheap prices. Most of these stands are in crowded shopping alleys. Here in singapore, piracy is a very serious offence. A few years back, a saw 2 people selling pirated DVDs in a shopping in their mid 20s and almost got caught by policemen. One guy was the lookout while the other sold the DVDs. They ran away after seeing the policemen. Here's my last sentence: PIRACY IS WRONG! DON'T DO IT! FREEDOM IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN MONEY!
Shake
If you can't afford it, steal it? Okay...but I don't think we need to talk about this on Frihost. You can do what you want, but there are consequences to your actions. I wouldn't do it. Plus, if you really liked the software you're using, you would support it.
TheGeek
I agree that the author of this thread COULD use linux, but it still isn't right for Microsoft to jack prices up like that simply because it knows that there is no serious competition to price battle with.

But back to linux, say he did try to install and run linux...lets see so he installs that...if he is lucky enough to know how to do so. But assuming he gets it installed, he has to make the switch from just double clicking on an auto install icon on his desktop to running the tarball deal (if he is lucky enough to get a version of linux that can unpack and install tarballs easily).

If we were the developing country and say that for us, the $150 it costs to get MSMCE was our monthly or heck even weekly salary, would you seriously give up everything you need for that period of time simply so you can run an operating system? I think not. Personally, i have a job, and I only make about 40-60 dollars/week if im lucky, so i know how it is to have no money when you need it for something. Fortunatly i have the luxury of being in college where either everything is paid for or gets paid for by my parents. So not using that earned money isn't as detrimental, however, it still means sacrifices. For instance, im building a new computer now that took me nears 3 months to save up for on my salary, during this time i havent been able to go to the movies, eat out, go bowling, go to plays, tech conferences, concerts or anything else that i may have wanted to do, heck I have even taken to my bicycle recently because i can't afford the gas anymore (then again who can at almost $3/gallon for regular). This is all so that i can build a basic machine since my current one is now beginning to show its age repeatedly...Now, on this machine i am also fortunate enough to know my way around linux pretty decently well so i have the luxury of not having to pay for MSMCE, but i almost had to before i found out there were Media Center apps for linux that were free.


Long story short, I too dont condone piracy in places like the US, UK, and Canada (sorry if there are other places i just dont know about) that have laws againts such things as piracy and all the other bad things you can do on the internet, however, in countries that dont have these laws in place it is up for the individual to decide whether to pirate or not, and they risk only getting a virus from a bad copy.


::EDIT:: i stress the point that it is not ILLEGAL unless you live in a country where these laws are prevelant, at that point i think it may just be imoral...
orcaz
oskuro wrote:

Those links are FACTS here in spain.

There has been MANY PUBLIC manifestations, going into SGAEīS offices, and in the front door, with a laptop(portatil pc or whatever its called), and telling police before about they were going to download music and films there, they did, and no one said anything.

POLICE CAN DO N-O-T-H-I-N-G unless u make profit of those downloads, so u can go to wherever u want here in spain, call police, swat, or whoever u want, and they will do nothing, cause they cant.

PRIVATE USE itīs legal here in spain, if u dont live here dont say anything about that, cause here private use itīs legal, and law cant do NOTHING.

so good... Singapore used to be liddat, but recently it has changed to illegal to download "substantial" amount of music even for personal use, altho substantial isn't really defined... i dun use pirated windows coz heard mani pple say can't update with pirated windows due to WGA. I use alternative like open source if i dont want to pay. I was actually tempted to use pirated, but decided not to, coz the piracy laws on softwares are real tight. So I think that it is not really wrong to buy pirated softwares in countries with less strict piracy laws. I don't know abt the pple in other countries, but the pple in sg has some sort of policy that you can do anything, but as long as you don't get caught.

Xeniczone wrote:

Here is a good example. You live in Hadi. A poor country. Windows there cost 30 dollars. Windows here in the US cost 150 dollars. Lets say I want to buy the new windows would I buy it here for 150 or buy it there for 30 and pay probably 45 dollars shipping. Hmm, I just paid 75 dollars for software I would have to pay 150 dollars. Though microsoft just lost 120 dollars of the deal. Opps. Do that about 1000 times and microsoft is going down hill. (remember Microsoft isn't rich the president bill gates is not the company.)

im sure a huge company Windows will shut down juz bcoz it has lowered the price a bit. How much isit earning per year??? also, the number of customers in poorer countries would not be as much, so they prolly would'nt lose much... It is earning a lot, due to its monopoly in operating system.
oskuro
Watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cx4crXwRTYQ

Thatīs what i think about downloading music, well, at least here in spain for private use, we can do it.

But that video, is a real fact, i love south park Laughing
oais
Wow, that was a long debate. In the end Piracy is wrong but people still do it because it's easy to break this law as people usually don't get caught. It's virtually impossible to track down people using pirated software. Yes software it turns out to be much much more expensive than buying a computer. It's not only operating system, there are many other programs which are more costly that the operating system.
I'm currently using MEPIS linux, It's not only easy to install Linux but it comes packed with software. Just install the operating system and you're done. Office suite, picture editor, video editor, tv application, games everything included. The developer's site is updated with packages that you might need and other packages that were not included. It does need getting used to as you need to read manuals to configure your system. Once the system is configured, it's rock solid. Cool
Wd64
saiyeek wrote:
I am sorry to tell but it is true, every versions of my windows programs are pirated. I don't think i have ever used windows versions original or any other costly software paying price. I live in Nepal, one of developing countries of the world. Our per capita income is 240USD thats too small amount. If I ever had to pay for the softwares I wanted to use, till now it will amount many times of my yearly expenditure. Many of my countrymen use pirated softwares. Pirated software are found here are there in the market. I recently bought Windows XP Media Center Edition with 0.5 dollar, so cheap, its was pirated but it works fine and for me piracy has been only way i have been getting the softwares.
I think there should be LOW PRICE EDITION of the softwares for the people of he countries like mine, so as to lower down the piracy.


I agree! Sure, my macromedia and adobe products are cracked because I want to make decent graphics and websites but I don't have $2000 to spend on computer software. People like Adobe are scammers. Look at CS Premium edition, its over $1000.

And the other day I nearly fainted when I found out the MS development team suite is over $7000!

The prices of software is getting out of hand, if Adobe would lower the prices of its software maybe people like me wouldn't have to turn to piracy.

Welliottdude,
exarkun
Well, to conclude, pirated software is for the poor (that's me) Wink

I can't really afford to spend much on a geuine piece of software, so had to turn to those warez. But there is only one obvious problem : Most of them contains some soft of spyware, adware or even virus. And I had to live with it... Crying or Very sad
Animal
exarkun wrote:
Well, to conclude, pirated software is for the poor (that's me) Wink

I can't really afford to spend much on a geuine piece of software, so had to turn to those warez. But there is only one obvious problem : Most of them contains some soft of spyware, adware or even virus. And I had to live with it... Crying or Very sad


That's no more than you deserve. Using an argument like "I can't afford it, so it's ok to steal" would really only work if you were talking about bread. By putting in Crying or Very sad did you think you would get sympathy? You deserve no sympathy and as many viruses that have ever been written.

Software is a non-essential commodity, and if you can't afford commercial versions of a product, use a free (open source) equivalent. You are poor, therefore it's ok for you to be a criminal? I don't think so!
Eyre
i agree with Animal on this one. I used to be part of the group using warez, but now i'm not really seeing the point of it. I do agree however that some programs are a little expensive for kids who would learn better at their age with a program then some older people could. Now, i use open source, because it's more fun Very Happy. Photoshop for example. using Gimp (open source equivilant almost) you can do pretty much everything photoshop can. And the fact that you did it with something $600 dollars cheaper and less extensive makes the glory better. Also, learning to work with a lower end program can make you tons better when you can actually afford the commercial program and possibly use it for a career. I'm not saying pirating is right or wrong, i'm just saying to look at what you can do without pullling the illegal strings.
Xeniczone
Quote:
im sure a huge company Windows will shut down juz bcoz it has lowered the price a bit. How much isit earning per year??? also, the number of customers in poorer countries would not be as much, so they prolly would'nt lose much... It is earning a lot, due to its monopoly in operating system.


Off course. You charge 150 to 200 dollars for you software to say in business. Microsoft sells to hati for 10 dollars (no really just a sinario). every hears about this and starts having it imported to save money. everytime someone Imports or buys one microsoft has lost 140-190 dollars lets say 10 dollars for the home and 20 for the pro. so microsoft losses 140 on home and 180 on pro. do that 1000 time. microsoft losses 140,000 - 180,000. That is a lot to loss. And 1000 times is about the number of times it will happen in a small city. make it a big city like new york it will happen about 5,000 times and with about 30,000 city (guess) in a state and 50 states = 1,500,000 times 140 = 210,000,000.

210 million is a lot to lose. (pretending this happens with windows vista and it's home edition is 150 dollars and 10 dollars in hati or some poor country.

bill gates is a billionare. this is only counting windows people would do it for microsoft office and microsoft games and that could add up to about 1 billion some odd dollars. That is enough to set any company out of business. and if billy is losing that much money on his company then what do you think he is going to do let is happen and say i just lost a billion dollars or shut down the company and start a new one gain all the profet back and on you go.
guissmo
saiyeek wrote:
I am sorry to tell but it is true, every versions of my windows programs are pirated. I don't think i have ever used windows versions original or any other costly software paying price. I live in Nepal, one of developing countries of the world. Our per capita income is 240USD thats too small amount. If I ever had to pay for the softwares I wanted to use, till now it will amount many times of my yearly expenditure. Many of my countrymen use pirated softwares. Pirated software are found here are there in the market. I recently bought Windows XP Media Center Edition with 0.5 dollar, so cheap, its was pirated but it works fine and for me piracy has been only way i have been getting the softwares.
I think there should be LOW PRICE EDITION of the softwares for the people of he countries like mine, so as to lower down the piracy.


Er... I don't like the sound of a "Low Price Edition"...
It could be a full-version of Windows except you get an ad to buy the Full Version every 10 minutes...
Stubru Freak
Xeniczone wrote:
Quote:
im sure a huge company Windows will shut down juz bcoz it has lowered the price a bit. How much isit earning per year??? also, the number of customers in poorer countries would not be as much, so they prolly would'nt lose much... It is earning a lot, due to its monopoly in operating system.


Off course. You charge 150 to 200 dollars for you software to say in business. Microsoft sells to hati for 10 dollars (no really just a sinario). every hears about this and starts having it imported to save money. everytime someone Imports or buys one microsoft has lost 140-190 dollars lets say 10 dollars for the home and 20 for the pro. so microsoft losses 140 on home and 180 on pro. do that 1000 time. microsoft losses 140,000 - 180,000. That is a lot to loss. And 1000 times is about the number of times it will happen in a small city. make it a big city like new york it will happen about 5,000 times and with about 30,000 city (guess) in a state and 50 states = 1,500,000 times 140 = 210,000,000.

210 million is a lot to lose. (pretending this happens with windows vista and it's home edition is 150 dollars and 10 dollars in hati or some poor country.

bill gates is a billionare. this is only counting windows people would do it for microsoft office and microsoft games and that could add up to about 1 billion some odd dollars. That is enough to set any company out of business. and if billy is losing that much money on his company then what do you think he is going to do let is happen and say i just lost a billion dollars or shut down the company and start a new one gain all the profet back and on you go.


That will not happen. Getting a software package imported from a poor country is a lot harder then just getting an illegal version. And, those software packages are going to be illegal in rich countries. Also they can easily do an IP check to see where you are from. So there is no advantage in importing one over getting an illegal version. So noone will do it. End of story.
Animal
Stubru Freak wrote:
That will not happen. Getting a software package imported from a poor country is a lot harder then just getting an illegal version. And, those software packages are going to be illegal in rich countries. Also they can easily do an IP check to see where you are from. So there is no advantage in importing one over getting an illegal version. So noone will do it. End of story.


Actually, I will disagree with this. It might be hard, but if a company with (say) 10,000 computers needs new copies of Windows, Office etc. this "difficult" task would save them several hundred thousand dollars. To any company, a saving like that would be worth virtually any level of difficulty.

The problem with reduced pricing is not based on the consumer market - the losses and savings would be negligible in terms of a company the size of Microsoft. In large business, it would cost these companies huge amounts of money. It would not be possible to sell the same product at different prices depending on whether it's for home use or large business use, so it won't happen.

Microsoft are trying to introduce this kind of product (eg. Microsoft Windows XP Starter Edition) for developing countries, but lots and lots of features have been removed from the OS to stop business users buying the software.
Stubru Freak
Animal wrote:
Stubru Freak wrote:
That will not happen. Getting a software package imported from a poor country is a lot harder then just getting an illegal version. And, those software packages are going to be illegal in rich countries. Also they can easily do an IP check to see where you are from. So there is no advantage in importing one over getting an illegal version. So noone will do it. End of story.


Actually, I will disagree with this. It might be hard, but if a company with (say) 10,000 computers needs new copies of Windows, Office etc. this "difficult" task would save them several hundred thousand dollars. To any company, a saving like that would be worth virtually any level of difficulty.

The problem with reduced pricing is not based on the consumer market - the losses and savings would be negligible in terms of a company the size of Microsoft. In large business, it would cost these companies huge amounts of money. It would not be possible to sell the same product at different prices depending on whether it's for home use or large business use, so it won't happen.

Microsoft are trying to introduce this kind of product (eg. Microsoft Windows XP Starter Edition) for developing countries, but lots and lots of features have been removed from the OS to stop business users buying the software.


You mean companies in developing countries? Because if a company in a rich country that isn't allowed to use it uses it, it's just as easy for them to use pirated software.
Animal
Stubru Freak wrote:
You mean companies in developing countries? Because if a company in a rich country that isn't allowed to use it uses it, it's just as easy for them to use pirated software.


No, I mean companies in the US for example. Microsoft cannot dictate laws - they can not therefore make it illegal for a US company to use software it made with the developing market in mind.

The point I'm making is that if a US company can save, say, $500,000 by buying software from abroad, they will. This is why Microsoft do not charge different amounts of money for the same product depending on the company it is sold in.
Stubru Freak
Animal wrote:
Stubru Freak wrote:
You mean companies in developing countries? Because if a company in a rich country that isn't allowed to use it uses it, it's just as easy for them to use pirated software.


No, I mean companies in the US for example. Microsoft cannot dictate laws - they can not therefore make it illegal for a US company to use software it made with the developing market in mind.


Can't they? If they put it in their license agreement, isn't it official?
Animal
Stubru Freak wrote:
Can't they? If they put it in their license agreement, isn't it official?


There's a difference between a license agreement and the law. There are also competition laws in many countries, and these would probably void the license agreements in many cases.
Shin
I agree there should be a cheaper version of the software. Just to give different choices. Which some of the software companies do sell they software in different version like for student, personal or non-commercial purpose. I think big software companies have duty to help education too.
Xeniczone
Quote:
Can't they? If they put it in their license agreement, isn't it official?


A license agreement wouldn't stop others from doing it. Eg. Apple's license agreement says you will not install this software on a computer other then those branded by Apple. Yet it never stoped all those people from installing or even downloading mac os x.

Microsoft would also have a hell of a time keeping track of all the shippments sent out. The only way they would have full control of it is, if you had to order it online from microsoft then they can use the ip you ordered it with and see if your from a poor country or not. If your not and your trying to steal from them they can always send a fine instead of the software.

The problem with that is if your poor and your buying a computer for the first time how the hell would you order without a computer to get the internet?

That is like bush saying he is making a website for homeless to get jobs. When is the last time you saw a homeless person on the street with a laptop looking for jobs?
Stubru Freak
Yes but it would be illegal? So then noone would bother getting software from a poor country if it's just as illegal to download it?
FerSx
I think itís more complicated that if u canít pay for it DONíT BUY IT, or go open sourceÖyep u can, but hmmm try to give a noob guy a copy of Linux an a pc to see what happen, our just give him a PC with Linux on it, total mess, specially if they r using Microsoft in there office and Linux at home. Just a simple task of sharing excel work will be a HEADEACH for them. Brick wall

It third word countries like here in Venezuela, you still see old P1 being used because people cant afford a new pc, and if u r buying a new pc thatís getting your AS* in debt for at least 2 years, and think off all the previous debs that u already have, and donít think of buying a Hi End PC just a simple p4 2.66 with 512 M and 40 gigs and even a 17Ē CRT monitor, now u spend like 500$ for it (and see that the minimum salary here its 170$) and if u think of buying the Microsoft software (windows XP OEM) 300$ hmm only for a OEM license of windowsÖ with that money I will upgrade my PC with more RAM bigger HD even change to processor to a 3.0. And buy a COPY of windows for less than a dollar. And here u can find EXELENT copy of ANY software around the corner. Rolling Eyes

If u r a decent guy and WANT a original copy of window but CANT spend the money well u will buy your pc and when u have the money u will buy the OSÖ HA HA Microsoft donít let u here in Latin America buy one copy of any OEM software Shame on you , u have to buy the package of 10. The only way itís buying it INSTALLED with your PC. Or go for the retail version ALMOST 600$ for it MORE EXPENCIVE THAT THE ACTUALY PC, and if u wana office add another 250$. Shocked

Now I work In a reseller and try to sell OROGINAL COPY OF MICROSOFT, ok I have to buy the soft directly from Microsoft an resell the package of 10 OEM copy to my clients (it ILLEGAL TO SELL ONLY 1), ok I can find OEM copies for 60$ or less in the internet YES (but its illegal too, in their point of view ill be selling a ILLEGAL copy of their software and can be sued for it) actually my copy of Microsoft it ILLEGAL because I buy it via internet in the US an shipped to me here, so figure out I have my ORIGINAL CD ORIGINAL BOX an ORIGINAL CDKEY for witch I PAY but in their point of view I OUN A ILLEGAL COPY. Mad
And lets not talk about, Autodesk, Adobe, or any other software that only for buying it I will need to work all my life only to pay for software, and not even thinking of buying the upgrades that go out every year of them!!!
And Symantec FOR LOVE OF GOD be force to buy upgrades after there software expire in 1 year (A SOFTWARE THAT U ALREADY PAY FOR IT) Mad , and pay for a software that will slow down your PC.
And freeware software hmm look for 1 that doesnít have SPYWARES, MALWARES or any other sh** with them and that do ADOBES o AUTODESK work, and actually share the work with them. (u need to get your work to the print shop, and they be able to actually PRINT IT) or whatever its your line of work!!!!

And ho to blame???
The fact that we live in a 3 country and been POUR, the governments that donít do anything to upgrade the life of their citizens, or donít care of the piracy off illegal software in the streets, or the big companies like MICROSOFT that docent care a bless, and actually make it almost impossible for people like me to own a LEGAL COPY OF TERE SOFTWARE, and even with there POLITICS push us to buy them illegally.

Now with this Iím not saying F*** Microsoft lets all use illegal copy, I own a LEGAL (HUU illegal, thatís there point of view Drool ) copy of Microsoft OS and Office, and it was a real deal for my to buy it, and now I use AutoCAD too.. and YES A ILLEGAL COPY of it off curse it is unreachable for me to buy it original, half of my monthly incomes come form external works or home made works (90% of us down here in the 3d world have to find extra work to have enough money to live), basically autocad related work its what I do and donít have even a slight chance of buying it legally, even if I wana to.
So I shouldnít work and find some extra money to live a bit better because I canít buy the software I need to do so Question
Yes I think itís unmoral to use pirated software if u can pay for it and just refuse to do so, but its UNMORAL the politics some company have with there software too.
Thatís why I will go wit a STONG YES for LOW PRICE EDITION software. Maybe that way people like me will have the money to buy the software that we use. And use freeware software to complete the LOW PRICE or ripped off aplz missing from theme.

OOPS hehe too long sorry Embarassed have to get it off my chest. Laughing

And SPANISH speaker here donít look to much my grammar please. Embarassed
lSaKenl
Quote:
think itís more complicated that if u canít pay for it DONíT BUY IT, or go open sourceÖyep u can, but hmmm try to give a noob guy a copy of Linux an a pc to see what happen, our just give him a PC with Linux on it, total mess, specially if they r using Microsoft in there office and Linux at home. Just a simple task of sharing excel work will be a HEADEACH for them



Sorry but i think that you're wrong, first, open source projects are even better than microsoft projects, also, you talked about giving a linux system to a noob, let's see, if why is it hard to move from windows to linux? because you got used to windows, but if you give linux to a noob, he'll just get used to it, and he'll find windows, useless and a rare OS, also, about the linux in house and windows in office, think about it, open Microsoft Word and open KWORD(havent seen the open office one) they're clonics, that's it, also KWORD reads .doc, so, what would be the mess huh?
saiyeek
FerSx wrote:
I think itís more complicated that if u canít pay for it DONíT BUY IT, or go open sourceÖyep u can, but hmmm try to give a noob guy a copy of Linux an a pc to see what happen, our just give him a PC with Linux on it, total mess, specially if they r using Microsoft in there office and Linux at home. Just a simple task of sharing excel work will be a HEADEACH for them. Brick wall

It third word countries like here in Venezuela, you still see old P1 being used because people cant afford a new pc, and if u r buying a new pc thatís getting your AS* in debt for at least 2 years, and think off all the previous debs that u already have, and donít think of buying a Hi End PC just a simple p4 2.66 with 512 M and 40 gigs and even a 17Ē CRT monitor, now u spend like 500$ for it (and see that the minimum salary here its 170$) and if u think of buying the Microsoft software (windows XP OEM) 300$ hmm only for a OEM license of windowsÖ with that money I will upgrade my PC with more RAM bigger HD even change to processor to a 3.0. And buy a COPY of windows for less than a dollar. And here u can find EXELENT copy of ANY software around the corner. Rolling Eyes

If u r a decent guy and WANT a original copy of window but CANT spend the money well u will buy your pc and when u have the money u will buy the OSÖ HA HA Microsoft donít let u here in Latin America buy one copy of any OEM software Shame on you , u have to buy the package of 10. The only way itís buying it INSTALLED with your PC. Or go for the retail version ALMOST 600$ for it MORE EXPENCIVE THAT THE ACTUALY PC, and if u wana office add another 250$. Shocked

Now I work In a reseller and try to sell OROGINAL COPY OF MICROSOFT, ok I have to buy the soft directly from Microsoft an resell the package of 10 OEM copy to my clients (it ILLEGAL TO SELL ONLY 1), ok I can find OEM copies for 60$ or less in the internet YES (but its illegal too, in their point of view ill be selling a ILLEGAL copy of their software and can be sued for it) actually my copy of Microsoft it ILLEGAL because I buy it via internet in the US an shipped to me here, so figure out I have my ORIGINAL CD ORIGINAL BOX an ORIGINAL CDKEY for witch I PAY but in their point of view I OUN A ILLEGAL COPY. Mad
And lets not talk about, Autodesk, Adobe, or any other software that only for buying it I will need to work all my life only to pay for software, and not even thinking of buying the upgrades that go out every year of them!!!
And Symantec FOR LOVE OF GOD be force to buy upgrades after there software expire in 1 year (A SOFTWARE THAT U ALREADY PAY FOR IT) Mad , and pay for a software that will slow down your PC.
And freeware software hmm look for 1 that doesnít have SPYWARES, MALWARES or any other sh** with them and that do ADOBES o AUTODESK work, and actually share the work with them. (u need to get your work to the print shop, and they be able to actually PRINT IT) or whatever its your line of work!!!!

And ho to blame???
The fact that we live in a 3 country and been POUR, the governments that donít do anything to upgrade the life of their citizens, or donít care of the piracy off illegal software in the streets, or the big companies like MICROSOFT that docent care a bless, and actually make it almost impossible for people like me to own a LEGAL COPY OF TERE SOFTWARE, and even with there POLITICS push us to buy them illegally.

Now with this Iím not saying F*** Microsoft lets all use illegal copy, I own a LEGAL (HUU illegal, thatís there point of view Drool ) copy of Microsoft OS and Office, and it was a real deal for my to buy it, and now I use AutoCAD too.. and YES A ILLEGAL COPY of it off curse it is unreachable for me to buy it original, half of my monthly incomes come form external works or home made works (90% of us down here in the 3d world have to find extra work to have enough money to live), basically autocad related work its what I do and donít have even a slight chance of buying it legally, even if I wana to.
So I shouldnít work and find some extra money to live a bit better because I canít buy the software I need to do so Question
Yes I think itís unmoral to use pirated software if u can pay for it and just refuse to do so, but its UNMORAL the politics some company have with there software too.
Thatís why I will go wit a STONG YES for LOW PRICE EDITION software. Maybe that way people like me will have the money to buy the software that we use. And use freeware software to complete the LOW PRICE or ripped off aplz missing from theme.

OOPS hehe too long sorry Embarassed have to get it off my chest. Laughing

And SPANISH speaker here donít look to much my grammar please. Embarassed



I do support your idea of low price edition. come one I know books also have got low price edition for third world countries. And why not it is same with the softwares. Come on there should be different prices for different countries of the world. according to their GDP or some other index they wish to incorporate.
FerSx
lSaKenl wrote:

Sorry but i think that you're wrong, first, open source projects are even better than microsoft projects, also, you talked about giving a linux system to a noob, let's see, if why is it hard to move from windows to linux? because you got used to windows, but if you give linux to a noob, he'll just get used to it, and he'll find windows, useless and a rare OS, also, about the linux in house and windows in office, think about it, open Microsoft Word and open KWORD(havent seen the open office one) they're clonics, that's it, also KWORD reads .doc, so, what would be the mess huh?

Hi first off all I didnít say open source are better o worst, I do have Linux and use it (well have been some time right now). And YES all of us came with an implanted chip from MICROSOFT Confused no kidding find some one that havenít at least have go to a cyber cafť and played with a machine! They have seen windows and at least are already comfortable with it. (HAVENíT YOU???)
And hoes to blame Microsoft for creating a good software thatís easy to use an user friendly?
And hoes say that linux itís free? If u whant full support you have to pay for it! Or if u want to install it in an office environment u have to pay too! (If not u r using a pirated version.)

And ok KWORD its good with documents but only whit basic documents: ďDEAR MR BOBĒ, but have u try to open a 50 or more page document with charts, diagrams and pictures inserted on it, and open it in any OPEN SOURCE word processor (even open office); I have and it scramble all the work, (and thatís just WORD lets not talk about EXEL), so u have to spend at least half an hour to fix the mess to start working, and when u open it again in office WAM again half an hour fixing the mess (and u will loss some charts, diagrams, tables or excel tables inserted on them)!. And in the real world thatís the kind of work u will see.
And by the other hand I use a EPSON LX-300+ impact printer here at work (have u try to install it on linux???) it take me like 2 hour get it up and running (man I fell dumb for that).
And a lot of this is from my experience, I have an old P3 1 GIG laptop that I use a lot, I install linux on it good GOD, excellent run fast and all, hmm another story with OFFICE TOTAL HEADACHE, I end up throwing the laptop to one corner and go to the study and use my PC.
So I end up installing 98SE on it and its ok now, a little bit slower but what the heck I use it to WORK only and now I even have AutoCAD (witch only work in Windows) installed on it so I can show the blueprints on it.

In the end (IN MY POINT OF VIEW of curse) is that eventually Microsoft software are easer to use in exchange to linux, that in some case u even need to know some programming to get it up and running. And there are a lot of programs out there that actually only run under windows environment, AutoCAD, 3DMaxÖ software that actually are expensive too (REALLY EXPENSIVE), software that I will never be able to BUY LEGALLY, and software that I use to make some extra money, now should I stop using them only because I cant afford them? Are they any FREEWARE that can be remotely compare to AUTOCAD o 3DMAX??? And you canít compare using pirated software to stealing a CAR thatís BULL SH** itís not the same even REMOTELY (and donít get me started here), and if my clients wants me to use AutoCAD fore there work (if I donít us it they just will find some one that dose), what should I do starve to DEAD? Only because those companies that make software supposedly to make your LIFE easer actually make it HARDER.
Why its so hard to companies to make a low price SOFTWARE, something fore people like ME THAT WANT THEM LEGALLY but cant afford them, in contrary they sell it more expensive that u can find it in other countries (US), and put a lot of steps and sh** for us to acquire.

BTW am not against OPEN source, and its grate to see a lot of companies taking really Sirius this OS, and making there hardware LINUX or BEOS or any OS ready! Offer and demand.
Some day u will see actually free software as good as any others, and we will have the choice of going freeware or not, right now we are getting there but still not there yet!
Animal
FerSx wrote:
In the end (IN MY POINT OF VIEW of curse) is that eventually Microsoft software are easer to use in exchange to linux, that in some case u even need to know some programming to get it up and running. And there are a lot of programs out there that actually only run under windows environment, AutoCAD, 3DMaxÖ software that actually are expensive too (REALLY EXPENSIVE), software that I will never be able to BUY LEGALLY, and software that I use to make some extra money, now should I stop using them only because I cant afford them? Are they any FREEWARE that can be remotely compare to AUTOCAD o 3DMAX??? And you canít compare using pirated software to stealing a CAR thatís BULL SH** itís not the same even REMOTELY (and donít get me started here), and if my clients wants me to use AutoCAD fore there work (if I donít us it they just will find some one that dose), what should I do starve to DEAD?


Ok, so you are using pirated software to make money? Therefore, you should be able to afford to buy it.

Let me take the example of AutoCAD - it's a program I know and use in a professional environment. Imagine a small, startup business that buys its software legally then sells its services. In order to cover the cost of the software, it has to charge a fair amount of money for the work it does.

Now take someone like you. You steal the software so it costs you nothing. You then can under-cut the honest seller so that you can make 100% profit and no, as you said, "starve to dead". But what about the honest businessman? He is losing customers because he can't compete with your prices, so he and his family starve.

Stealing software is not entirely about the theft itself - it is wrong. But in a commercial ebvironment, making money out of pirated software is abhorrent. You can hardly argue that you will starve to death if you don't steal software, where an honest person who pays for his software will starve because of that.

Put it in perspective.
BlackSkad
FerSx wrote:
And hoes say that linux itís free? If u whant full support you have to pay for it! Or if u want to install it in an office environment u have to pay too! (If not u r using a pirated version.)


And who said that Linux is not free? There are indeed commercial distributions for which you have to pay (Red Hat, Linspire,...), but if you don't want to pay, you just take a non-commercial distro. Have you ever seen Ubuntu? Why should you have to pay to install it in an office environment? Ubuntu is completely free of charge. To go even further, you can request a cd containing Ubuntu, which they ship to you free of charge!
And who says that you have to pay for the support? There are loads of forums where you can register for free and the users will help you with pleasure (AND for free). Offcourse even Ubuntu has a Commercial Support part, but their online community is as big (if not even bigger) then the commercial support. And you don't have to know anything about programming, not to install the OS, nor for most of the common free programs (which is a long list: 16.000 packages!!!).
The server-version which will be released tomorrow has a mechanism to set up a fully functional, certified LAMP (Linux-Apache-MySQL-PHP) server in no time.

Just wanted to say that. Smile

About pirated software, my opinion is - in most cases - no. For almost every closed-source, commercial application, there is a free (open-source) application.
  • Windows => Linux
  • Internet Explorer => FireFox / Opera
  • MS Office => OpenOffice / StarOffice
  • autoCAD => Blender (maybe not 100%, but it's very powerfull)
  • Macromedia Flash MX => Flash 4 Linux (F4L)

And if there isn't an alternative (or you think so): just mention it on a developer-forum or something and I'm sure there will be someone to jump in to create it if it is a challenging project.
BlackSkad
FerSx
Hey Animal am not saying itís OK to us or anything, and yes I do see the perspective.
And am just trying to show you guys the perspective from down here the 3 world.
huu here in Venezuela even big companies use pirated copies of AutoCAD (actually only those companies that have been sued buy Autodesk have legal copies), the three print shops that I use to print my work use pirated software, and THAT FOR ME ITS ABDOMINAL.
And yes am making money with it but just some extra cash, 80$ or 100$ just to get thru the month thatís irrelevant for a company that can make 5000$ from it in one weak. (hmm and actually pay there employs 150$ for that job). I know that did that job for a time.

Ok maybe I will not starve (just my dog) Embarassed and my alcohol system will suffer a hard punch Eh? , but my state is why they donít sell LOW PRIZE EDITIONS software for people like me. Here in Venezuela 98% of the software itís pirated and 77% in Latin America, this number I hear them last March in a Microsoft conference, where I hear too that my copy of windows XP and office 2003 ARE illegal by all means only because I buy then in the US not here in Venezuela!!!! That really frustrate me that I suffer more than a year just to buy it because I DO WANA A LEGAL COPY and receive that low punch!!!! Any yes I buy it there because why should I pay 700$ for a software that actually its sell up there for 350$ THATS ABDOMINAL TOO!! Its like saying FU** Latin America.
So if these companies donít even care why should we???

BlackSkad wrote:

And who said that Linux is not free? There are indeed commercial distributions for which you have to pay (Red Hat, Linspire,...), but if you don't want to pay, you just take a non-commercial distro. Have you ever seen Ubuntu?

Oh BTW Ubuntu??? Jeje got me there jajaja, and they still charge u for support Very Happy
And tnx for the info was looking for a OS to put a small server at home with my old P3 just for fun Very Happy
And Bender dont even think about it THAT ITS ABDOMINAL!
lSaKenl
Quote:
And hoes to blame Microsoft for creating a good software thatís easy to use an user friendly?
And hoes say that linux itís free? If u whant full support you have to pay for it! Or if u want to install it in an office environment u have to pay too! (If not u r using a pirated version.)

And ok KWORD its good with documents but only whit basic documents: ďDEAR MR BOBĒ, but have u try to open a 50 or more page document with charts, diagrams and pictures inserted on it, and open it in any OPEN SOURCE word processor (even open office); I have and it scramble all the work, (and thatís just WORD lets not talk about EXEL), so u have to spend at least half an hour to fix the mess to start working, and when u open it again in office WAM again half an hour fixing the mess (and u will loss some charts, diagrams, tables or excel tables inserted on them)!. And in the real world thatís the kind of work u will see.


Heh, do not become mad man, it's just my oppinion, and here it goes again.

KWORD for me works better than ms word, never crashed with an entire Tutorial of open sofware with more than 500 pages and pics on it

Linux isnt free? huh well, here's the point, where do you think the food in your table comes? money, and, if linux was 100% free, where would the linux programmers get the money to eat?

Only and ONLY FEW linux disrtos arent for free, such as Linux Red Hat ENTERPRISE EDITION

all other red hats were for free, same with mandriva enterprise and those things.

well for support, do you think that there's gonna be many guys sit at side of the phone to answer all your questions for free?, also, you dont need to call for support, there are millions of linux support forums for free, just gotta look for them. ^^

I REPEAT: DO NOT GET MAD, ITS JUST MY OPINION
FerSx
lSaKenl wrote:

Heh, do not become mad man, it's just my oppinion, and here it goes again.

KWORD for me works better than ms word, never crashed with an entire Tutorial of open sofware with more than 500 pages and pics on it

Hey donít get me wrong too (IM NOT MAD) Embarassed , just trying to express my point of view to. Wink

And man I do like LINUX to, I do share your opinion that KWORD works cleaner, faster, an a LOT more stable that MS OFFICE, but its still to complicated to share information between the too OS, especially when u have to work with both of them, OFFICE DOC are still incompatible to actually share and work between OS (and this is just 1 example), and it DOES scramble the work, so if u spend the last 8 hours at work making a presentation and take it home to give it the finishing touch, when u open it in linux its all scramble(ok the work its there but all scramble and misplaced), that my friends its really frustrating, so u end up just installing Microsoft products, why? In the office u have Microsoft products (THING THAT CANíT CHANGE) so it will be easer (well easer not POSSIBLE itís the word) to take the job at home when need it.

THAT FU** ship thatís itís implanted in our heads at the moment of berth. Shocked

So u end up with the problem off being unable to actually pay for the OS u need to have your work done.

And when you have 200 problems in your head the least u want its one more, especially if u make the sacrifice to buy a pc the help you with you day, and end up instead with incompatibilities problems, license problems, moral problems, an then all the common computer problems that came with them, (virus, hangouts,).

Haaa how I miss toes old days of DOS and that windows 3.1 was just a nice ad-on!
lSaKenl
Quote:
Hey donít get me wrong too (IM NOT MAD) , just trying to express my point of view to.

And man I do like LINUX to, I do share your opinion that KWORD works cleaner, faster, an a LOT more stable that MS OFFICE, but its still to complicated to share information between the too OS, especially when u have to work with both of them, OFFICE DOC are still incompatible to actually share and work between OS (and this is just 1 example), and it DOES scramble the work, so if u spend the last 8 hours at work making a presentation and take it home to give it the finishing touch, when u open it in linux its all scramble(ok the work its there but all scramble and misplaced), that my friends its really frustrating, so u end up just installing Microsoft products, why? In the office u have Microsoft products (THING THAT CANíT CHANGE) so it will be easer (well easer not POSSIBLE itís the word) to take the job at home when need it.


well, its nice to see that you arent mad ^^

But where i dont see the thing, is that you say that it appears misplaced, it neve happened to me before.

about the windows in work office, that it is inevitable, well, i just asked for a comp with linux, i said that it's free and wont take any extra cost to get it, that i'd install linux there, they gave me a new comp with their windows cd and told me to install both systems, i installed windows and slackware linux, added the ntfs partition to the visible partitions in linux and that's it, you can share everything with windows Wink

But i know, not everywhere, they trust the comps to you and that's sad, they just do not put linux because they dont know it, it's a sad thing
FerSx
lSaKenl wrote:

well, its nice to see that you arent mad ^^

But where i dont see the thing, is that you say that it appears misplaced, it neve happened to me before.

MAD ME please NOÖ just enjoying this debate.

Ok (this happened to me) I do have my CV Resume in a .DOC, just like very one else.
2 pages, all organize with Tables, a nice background, my picture inserted, and a lot of B.S. just to pop it up a little bit.
Each time I open it on my laptop with mandrake installed, my picture was missing, all the tables mix up (bad aligned, longer or shorter that they should be, or one over another), and were 3 page long, it even change the font (even so that I always use common fonts (Tahoma, Verdena, TNR, and the always the good Arial). Ok id didnít take me a lot to fix it, but why should I fix something itís done?
And if u think this happen every night with my excel work, maybe some stupid little thing missing or misplaced (moved a bit deformed), god u end up throwing the towel and going back to windows.

HEY BTW looking forward for the tutorial. Wink
Animal
FerSx wrote:
Ok id didnít take me a lot to fix it, but why should I fix something itís done?
And if u think this happen every night with my excel work, maybe some stupid little thing missing or misplaced (moved a bit deformed), god u end up throwing the towel and going back to windows.


But if you did it on Linux in the first instance (like you should have, instead of using illegally pirated software) then it wouldn't have messed up when you re-opened it under a different platform / program.

I've done stuff in MS Word before (yes, I have a legal copy!) and when I opened it in MS Works (an office suite that came free with my PC) the formatting was all screwed, moved line-breaks, missing images etc. So that was not Linux's fault.
lSaKenl
Quote:
HEY BTW looking forward for the tutorial


Which tutorial? do you mean the Visual Basic one?
FerSx
Animal wrote:

But if you did it on Linux in the first instance (like you should have, instead of using illegally pirated software) then it wouldn't have messed up when you re-opened it under a different platform / program.

I've done stuff in MS Word before (yes, I have a legal copy!) and when I opened it in MS Works (an office suite that came free with my PC) the formatting was all screwed, moved line-breaks, missing images etc. So that was not Linux's fault.

Actually the only illegal software that I use is AutoCAD, so I actually I did my CV in a LEGAL copy!
That try to open it in my laptop with linux itís another thing.

And think of this I use Microsoft OS at work (so I start my WORK there) and have to take it home to finish it (where I have linux) what will happen, it be impossible for me to finish my work. And I donít have the luck of lSaKenl to be able to install linux at work. This is a typical example of what its happening here in Venezuela with at least the 80% of the population, and think that I have luck to know some computer basics, and those that donít 99% of the POP??? I have known a lot off people that suffer a crisis when they leave a floppy (yep still been used down here) in the computer an turn it on and see the little message (no system boot or boot error) funny but happen, so what they should do??? DONíT WORK
Then u came and says that using pirated software itís ABDOMINAL, ABDOMINAL for me is that actually Microsoft sell XP home and office 2003 for 700$, and I buy XP professional and office 2003 for actually 339.99$ it the US, hmmm and they want us not to pirated there products????
350$ its payable 700$ DONíT EVEN THINK ABOUT IT, and AutoCAD 2006 (not the new one 2007) thatís a joke 3500$ in the US and actually 8000$ here, COME ONE whatís the problem with these people??? And we are the third world; we should have low prize editions IN MY OPINION!

Ohh by the way lSaKenl yep VB tutorial.
Animal
FerSx wrote:
Actually the only illegal software that I use is AutoCAD, so I actually I did my CV in a LEGAL copy!
That try to open it in my laptop with linux itís another thing.

And think of this I use Microsoft OS at work (so I start my WORK there) and have to take it home to finish it (where I have linux) what will happen, it be impossible for me to finish my work.


The point I was making here is that the document was not messed up because Linux is bad (which seems to be the argument you're making) - the point was that any non-native system will probably alter a document. Therefore, your argument that Linux sucks because it messed up your document is not a sound one. My comment illustrated that even two Microsoft products can make a mess of the same document.
FerSx
Animal wrote:

The point I was making here is that the document was not messed up because Linux is bad (which seems to be the argument you're making) - the point was that any non-native system will probably alter a document. Therefore, your argument that Linux sucks because it messed up your document is not a sound one. My comment illustrated that even two Microsoft products can make a mess of the same document.


Hey Animal donít get me wrong too I HAVE NEVER SAID LINUX SUCKS, ore never meant to sound like that, actually I know that the problem its cause MICROSOFT donít share at least the document programming so other software can red the documents as they suppose to do!
And if u want to go farther even Microsoft office BETA 1 mess up the documents of older office! Havenít tested office BETA 2 still but donít have time! So go figure it out! Shocked

And actually am trying to explain why the arguments that ďif u donít have the money for buying it go open sourceĒ its not that ease and possible for that reason, not because Linux sucks, instead itís for the incompatibilities issues that u will find in your Daly journal, and in today world where all information is shared via web specially using MS office components (at least here in Venezuela are); and the best example of these is the simple task of taking some work to home and having incompatibilities issues will take you to use PIRATED SOFTWARE cause u canít pay for it, as the statement of this topic is.
Arnie
Welliottdude64 wrote:
I agree! Sure, my macromedia and adobe products are cracked because I want to make decent graphics and websites but I don't have $2000 to spend on computer software. People like Adobe are scammers. Look at CS Premium edition, its over $1000.

And the other day I nearly fainted when I found out the MS development team suite is over $7000!

The prices of software is getting out of hand, if Adobe would lower the prices of its software maybe people like me wouldn't have to turn to piracy.
Have you ever realised how much it costs to develop professional software like that?

But even if that argument isn't enough yet: if you don't like their prices, find another product! And if you can't, make one yourself! And if you don't feel like doing that, then leave it! Or do you need "making decent graphics and websites" to stay alive!?

I can understand people stealing food because they need to survive. But I get angry when I actually see people using the same argument for cracking software! Like, "I can't afford it but I need it to survive, so I must steal! Can't you understand??"
Stubru Freak
Arnie wrote:
Welliottdude64 wrote:
I agree! Sure, my macromedia and adobe products are cracked because I want to make decent graphics and websites but I don't have $2000 to spend on computer software. People like Adobe are scammers. Look at CS Premium edition, its over $1000.

And the other day I nearly fainted when I found out the MS development team suite is over $7000!

The prices of software is getting out of hand, if Adobe would lower the prices of its software maybe people like me wouldn't have to turn to piracy.
Have you ever realised how much it costs to develop professional software like that?

But even if that argument isn't enough yet: if you don't like their prices, find another product! And if you can't, make one yourself! And if you don't feel like doing that, then leave it! Or do you need "making decent graphics and websites" to stay alive!?

I can understand people stealing food because they need to survive. But I get angry when I actually see people using the same argument for cracking software! Like, "I can't afford it but I need it to survive, so I must steal! Can't you understand??"


Well cracking software to buy food surely is more ethical then stealing food.
paul_indo
Arnie wrote:
Have you ever realised how much it costs to develop professional software like that?


Actually no I haven't. I would think not a lot actually.

Compare it to producing a motorcycle where it may be over a year in developement, each unit requires over one hundred kilograms of materials to manufacture and then must be shipped, at the same rate per kilo as software, and is then sold for around US$1000 in a third world country.

Logistics,. How many people will buy that model motorcycle worldwide?
How many people use Microsoft Office worldwide?

I believe that producing software is one of the most cost efficient products you could make. Your market is literaly unlimited, if your product is any good, and you don't even have to ship it these days. No factory to make it, no materials required. Not bad really

Maybe that's why Bill Gates is the richest man in the world, or nearly anyway.
marques1975
Hi!

I donít agree with software piracy. I prefer to have less software installed, my new computer already came with windows XP and as I have an old computer in which I donít want to spend a cent, I use open source software on both, such as:

# Linux (instead of MS Windows);
# Open Office (instead of MS Office);
# AVG (instead of Norton or Mcafee);
# FTP Explorer (instead of Cute FTP);
# Gimp (instead of Photoshop).

So, if you donít want to install piracy software, you may always use one of these alternatives, you only need to learn how to work with them, and thatís not difficult.

King regards,

Oscar
saurabh.sauron
i think that the best way is to use free and open source software. with many linux distributions, u get all the software that are important. Linux to compete with Windows, Open Office.org to compete with MS Office, Multimedia packages bundled to compete with Media Player. u dont need anything else. everything installs itself by default...almost free.
zorindart
I think piracy keeps people away from open source or freeware software, that often is as good as comercial software.
I am suspicious about piracy-against protections. These protections seems to be very easy to breack, and as soon as a new version of a popular commercial program arises, you can find a cracked version of it on the net.
Why are protections so weack? because they are been made to be like this. Owners of commertial software firms knows that if people learn to use a sortware (even by using a pirated version of it), they will keep on using it, and if they become professionals, they will have to pass some controls, therefore they will have to buy a license. It's a matter of marketing, that's all.
If protections were unbreackables, people would use freeware and/or open source programs, even in professional situations, and commercial software enterprises would loss money.
viceless
i think there is only one legitimate reason to use pirated software:

you own the piece you are downloading.

i know plenty of people who own CDs and actually didnt know how to rip them (before ipods) and would download the cds/songs they liked to make mixed cds. i also know people who download copies of programs they own, like office student edition or norton anti-virus that is given out for free in schools like USC in california, and share them with classmates.
areacode_777
i think the software industry needs to review the prices they put on their products. Not everyone can afford the original copy. And hey anyone who works under the microsoft has the intellectual property owned by the company

...the sad truth is, that any person under contract by a software company and makes any software during that time is owned by the company and therefore have no intellectual property rights... so what am i getting here, i have no idea...i lost track 5 seconds ago


Laughing
rajhank
yes piracy should be stopped, but if it is stopped no one would be able to buy softwares that are so expensive, so the only that the companies can do is making them cheap and then making profits out of them.
Arnie
Stubru Freak wrote:
Well cracking software to buy food surely is more ethical then stealing food.
And guess what? Not buying or cracking software to buy food is most ethical. But that's kind of obvious. Argumentation: refer to my previous posting.

Also, a P1 can actually run free OSes quite well. My attic is full with old 386, 486, P1 and P2 machines. I got Linux with IceWM running on the 486/DX with 16MB RAM. So that's including a GUI! Of course you couldn't run heavy applications on that, but a P2 box (233MHz, 64MB RAM) on the other hand runs like lightning on Debian with IceWM. Here are some pictures of the P2 with Debian that runs Firefox, AbiWord, Xpdf, you name it, and at good speeds also. Linux existed back in '95 already, so you might as well run an older version of Linux instead of Windows 95/98/NT on your old machine. (I'm currently trying RedHat 6.2.) Note that AbiWord and OOo are compatible with Microsoft Office. Especially OOo v2 does it very well.

Then when you come to an OS called QNX Neutrino, it gets even better. QNX (pronounced Q-nix) is actually designed for embedded systems, so it's extremely light. It's also a commercial product, but they released a "free for non-commercial use" edition of QNX 6.2.1. (The latest is 6.3 but they only released a 30-day trial of that one.) If you don't use your computer for commercial purposes, QNX is possibly even a better alternative. I'm currently running it on a Celeron 266MHz with 64MB RAM. It's certainly faster and also prettier than the Linux computer, and runs Firefox, AbiWord, Xpdf and many others as well. Only downside is, it doesn't have a port of OOo. The available software is limited compared to the vast amounts of available packages for Linux. Here (1) and here (2) are screenshots of the Celeron with QNX 6.2.1.

So I'm not only claiming that it's well possible to make a usable computer out of a P2, I'm also proving it. Admitted, I haven't shown any well usable P1 yet, but I'm working on that.

Paul_indo: such reasoning doesn't apply to all software. Take for example Syntrillium's Cool Edit Pro (which now unfortunately has become Adobe Audition). I'm convinced those guys deserved the money for the product, and it wasn't that expensive for what you got either. Still, many people (mostly home music-makers I suppose) use cracked versions of it.

But, I will accept your argumentation if you can assure me that each time you download illegal software, you investigate whether they make irreasonably more money than the development costed - in other words the price is too high, they'd make well-deserved profit at another price also. Do you do that? (And I'm not talking about a split-of-a-second thought 'oh well they're probably swimming in their private pool right now so...' because that's not so for all software developers!)
Stubru Freak
Arnie wrote:
Stubru Freak wrote:
Well cracking software to buy food surely is more ethical then stealing food.
And guess what? Not buying or cracking software to buy food is most ethical. But that's kind of obvious. Argumentation: refer to my previous posting.

Also, a P1 can actually run free OSes quite well. My attic is full with old 386, 486, P1 and P2 machines. I got Linux with IceWM running on the 486/DX with 16MB RAM. So that's including a GUI! Of course you couldn't run heavy applications on that, but a P2 box (233MHz, 64MB RAM) on the other hand runs like lightning on Debian with IceWM. Here are some pictures of the P2 with Debian that runs Firefox, AbiWord, Xpdf, you name it, and at good speeds also. Linux existed back in '95 already, so you might as well run an older version of Linux instead of Windows 95/98/NT on your old machine. (I'm currently trying RedHat 6.2.) Note that AbiWord and OOo are compatible with Microsoft Office. Especially OOo v2 does it very well.

Then when you come to an OS called QNX Neutrino, it gets even better. QNX (pronounced Q-nix) is actually designed for embedded systems,
so it's extremely light. It's also a commercial product, but they released a "free for non-commercial use" edition of QNX 6.2.1. (The latest is 6.3 but they only released a 30-day trial of that one.) If you don't use your computer for commercial purposes, QNX is possibly even a better alternative. I'm currently running it on a Celeron 266MHz with 64MB RAM. It's certainly faster and also prettier than the Linux computer, and runs Firefox, AbiWord, Xpdf and many others as well. Only downside is, it doesn't have a port of OOo. The available software is limited compared to the vast amounts of available packages for Linux. Here (1) and here (2) are screenshots of the Celeron with QNX 6.2.1.

So I'm not only claiming that it's well possible to make a usable computer out of a P2, I'm also proving it. Admitted, I haven't shown any well usable P1 yet, but I'm working on that.

Paul_indo: such reasoning doesn't apply to all software. Take for example Syntrillium's Cool Edit Pro (which now unfortunately has become Adobe Audition). I'm convinced those guys deserved the money for the product, and it wasn't that expensive for what you got either. Still, many people (mostly home music-makers I suppose) use cracked versions of it.

But, I will accept your argumentation if you can assure me that each time you download illegal software, you investigate whether they make irreasonably more money than the development costed - in other words the price is too high, they'd make well-deserved profit at another price also. Do you do that? (And I'm not talking about a split-of-a-second thought 'oh well they're probably swimming in their private pool right now so...' because that's not so for all software developers!)


Of course, it's just that someone said the opposite, that stealing food is more ethical then cracking software to buy food.

Of course open source is better, I use Linux myself, and it runs perfectly on a P2 laptop with 128 MB RAM.
garionw
what if everyone used open source software then?

Microsoft would go out of business because no-one will buy their software.

My view is that people need pirated software so the would will go around. I'm not saying people should, but its needed for competition.


Another factor is the computer shops. If they sell you an illegal copy of Windows XP, theres nothing you can do about it can you. People have grown up with windows and are afraid to change (Try teaching half the kids at my school how to use fedora) So you could also say Bill Gates brought it on himself.
Daniel15
garionw wrote:
what if everyone used open source software then?

Microsoft would go out of business because no-one will buy their software.

My view is that people need pirated software so the would will go around. I'm not saying people should, but its needed for competition.

That's quite an interesting view, I never thought of it that way... Even though Microsoft doesn't like pirated software, it's increasing Microsoft's market share, which is a good thing for them.
I believe that Bill Gates actually once said something to the effect of: "We don't like people pirating any software, but if they did, we'd prefer it to be ours" Razz
Squirreler
But is it considerd pirating if i bought my PC from some dude ata shop then i do software update a few months later and *POOF*
THIS COPY OF WINDOWS IS NOT GENUINE
How was i supposed to know! So then i go take it back and the shop has dissapeard off the face of the planet!!
I really didnt know but i can't offord to get the genuine key!
WHAT DO I DO??
Do you consider that as me stealing?


*I need your comments!
(PS: only read first and last forum page; sorry if i mist someone else saying this!)
varun_dodla
Pirates!!!!....i can understand that everyone cannot afford buying original ones...but that does not mean we can use pirated ones..It costs a lot for the Software companies to produce all that stuff...and if we use pirated ones...its like we are betraying them and almost like we are taking away their income.
For such reasons only Linux has become free...and is freely available in the internet. If you can just try to bear the internet charges,its more than enough. U get everything for free there.
Also Linux is becoming more similar to windows and also more powerful...all the applications now you get in Windows are freely available in the internet for Linux.
So if people cannot afford original ones, then its better they use Other Operating Systems which are freely available than just betraying the Software companies.
Gundamxxg
the way i see it, big huge corporate businesses that have to use those programs need to buy the liscenses, that alone generates plenty of revenue, for the people who cant afford the arm and a leg for a piece of software that can do some cool tricks i dont hold any grudges against the pirating of that software, the company is making its money where it needs to and thats all they really care about.
mercurial
if there's so much fuss bout paying for software..WHY NOT JUST USE GO OPENSOURCE? i think opensource softwares r really damn good these days and sometimes are even better than their licensed software counterparts.

like GIMP (http://gimp.org) which is some cool and FREE version of photoshop. and other than its weird corny name, i think its a rather good alternative especially when u noe u aren't paying a single cent and you aren't infringing any copyright laws

K3B is also another good software in replacement for nero and its cd-burning softwares. i have been using it for quite a long time and it's rather great.

yeaa so if u can't bear to spend money on the real McCoy, i think opensourced softwares are still a better way.. and there's millions of them on sourcefourge.net man
egbert
Pirated software is bad and you shouldn't do it, but still it isn't exactly theft.

Software takes practically nothing to produce, so it's not like stealing a car or anything.

Just think. You need software, but won't buy it because you're either too poor, or you won't use it for very long, or whatever. If you don't pirate the software, you won't buy it either. Nobody gets anything.

However, if you DO pirate the software, you, at least, get something.

This isn't exactly stealing, because, when you steal, the store or the company loses money. When you take the pirated software, nobody loses any money.

So, don't do it, but it's NOT stealing.

I have never ever pirated software, and whenever a need arised, I found an open-source solution.

Open-source > pirating.
tony
If Linux wasn't around, I'd feel very sorry for you. But w the advent of Linux, anyone in the world can a free, fully-functional desktop/laptop or server. So if you dont have the money for Windows, just download Linux and in many ways your software experience will be better anyway.
reddishblue
SoftStag wrote:
Maybe Bondings should give his IP address to Bill Gates.

Because Bill Gates will surely handle the case personally won't he
rheanna
reddishblue wrote:
SoftStag wrote:
Maybe Bondings should give his IP address to Bill Gates.

Because Bill Gates will surely handle the case personally won't he


I don't think it will matter anyway. Because he lives in another country. If a U.S. resident openly admitted to it then they would get tried because it's in the U.S. I don't think the U.S. can try a person in another country over Piracy.
Da Rossa
There is no discussion about the law, but this is phenomenon isn't there because every pirated software user is a criminal.

At first, many countries don't consider drug USERS criminals, the attention is given to the dealers. Q: Why should these particular countries hold the end user responsible for the pirated software usage? A: "Because they feed this black market!!" <-- the same countries that spend lots of money to treat the drug addicts and don't punish them for using.

Please note that, if there is a culprit, then it's the countries governments. Q: Why? A: Because they should spend money with mass open source software teaching in the basic education levels, so no one would find Linux as complicated as it is. And Linux users, don't even think about saying otherwise; 99% of you used to use Windows, which is the OS you learned to use a PC. You certainly spent lots of daily hours during months or even years to get used to Linux. But not everyone has the proper brain or time to spend learning it. So it would be way easier for the ordinary citizen to get along with Linux if he or she learned from the beginning of scholar age. But a policy like this, which could save millions to a country, just doesn't take place? Why? Because: 1 - every legislature has the parasite of lobby. 2 - They strangely think "it's not necessary".

Ok, what's the point?

M$ and derivatives should be proud of the impact they cause in poorer countries like Nepal. If there weren't the pirated copies, way less people would use a PC. Therefore the overall productivity of the country would be undermined. Thanks to M$, they have something to use.
GSIS
Can it ever be right to use poverty to justify theft?

Personally, I don't think so. I can't afford a decent car, so would it be right for me to just take one from a forecourt? No. Of course not.

It would be a different matter if someone's life depended on immediate access to something that could not be acquired by any legal means - but that's never going to happen with software. Even then, the item would have to be returned at the earliest reasonable opportunity. The owner would have the right to decide whether to charge for its use or even press charges for theft and/or the criminal damage done in gaining access to it.

A huge amount of effort goes into the production of software. Those who take it without the owner's permission make, I'm sure, no account of that. Software piracy is a selfish act that can never be justified.
why6487
Pirated copies of software can be very bad. A programmer takes time and money to develop a program (ex. I take my time and money writing Flipino [this is a game]).

I am going to trade out, my programs are open source really. Games (really) and OSes cost a lot to buy, so if you can't get something (such as Mac OS X), I would face a different OS X or face to Linux. Linux is open source (hoarry!) and my programs (that's good news I'm a programmer!) are open source.
Da Rossa
why6487 wrote:
Pirated copies of software can be very bad. A programmer takes time and money to develop a program (ex. I take my time and money writing Flipino [this is a game]).

I am going to trade out, my programs are open source really. Games (really) and OSes cost a lot to buy, so if you can't get something (such as Mac OS X), I would face a different OS X or face to Linux. Linux is open source (hoarry!) and my programs (that's good news I'm a programmer!) are open source.


That's very good 4u, but there is a problem for the average citizen: only a few % of them know how to program and understand sourcecodes, but everyone needs to use a computer. Sad
why6487
Da Rossa wrote:
why6487 wrote:
Pirated copies of software can be very bad. A programmer takes time and money to develop a program (ex. I take my time and money writing Flipino [this is a game]).

I am going to trade out, my programs are open source really. Games (really) and OSes cost a lot to buy, so if you can't get something (such as Mac OS X), I would face a different OS X or face to Linux. Linux is open source (hoarry!) and my programs (that's good news I'm a programmer!) are open source.


That's very good 4u, but there is a problem for the average citizen: only a few % of them know how to program and understand sourcecodes, but everyone needs to use a computer. Sad


Well, I know there's a few programmers out here but I'm one of them.

That's getting off topic some so I'll think that the open source stuff is 100% free.
PseudoKnight
Piracy, in the case where the user cannot afford the software, is actually a boon to the software company, provided that the software is actually good. It familiarizes users with their software and popularizes it at zero cost to their company. Users sometimes even become hopelessly dependent on the software. This leaks into business environments where the product is then purchased for commercial use.

So, while it is discouraged as stealing, many developers understand and quietly appreciate what piracy has done for their products.

Here's a different take on the subject from a software developer familiar with the problem:

http://www.codeproject.com/gen/design/UnconventialWisdom.asp

It's a good read. It debunks some of the myths surrounding software piracy and approaches it with sound logic and a reasonable attitude.
thejam
Currently i am living in the Carribean for the pirates; China Razz
It's a funny situation out here. Big software companies are having big marketing campaigns all over the place. The introduction of MS Vista for instance was celebrated with a lot of poohaa.
40m visual projections on Shanghai's skyscraper horizon. Billboards everywhere. However underneath those billboards people are selling the same product only a fake copy..for about 2$

The funny thing is that everything is so sofisticated in reproducing (or overproducing in some cases) that you just can't tell the difference. Even price is not a (always)indication. Sometimes when you think you buy something real, it's not ( this can be DVD's, but also a bottle of iced tea)
So i don't care anymore. I mean it's a different situation then in most other places in the world. But i have to admit.. sometimes it's soo dawm convieniant Cool
Studio Madcrow
Personally I have little problem with pirating sotware from large companies like Micro$oft and Adobe. I have more of a problem with people who steal from smaller companies where the loss of sales actually HURTS somebody.

That said, I think that free/open source software is better usually anyway Razz
kicy
I agree with the guy above me, anyways pirated software add to the softwares popularity. If someone took the effort to decrypt my software themselves I wouldn't mind but if they kept it hidden then w/e software isn't really something special (not anymore) but if it makes somebody happy to me thats priceless. There are honest and dishonest people there will be always honest people, so don't worry about trying to change the other.
dinael
Personally I don't really much believe that if people wouldn't steal software it would be cheaper.
Also I don't believe that free software can make for you the same things that one with the price can.
So Linux cannot be replacement for Windows, and freeware cannot be substitute for paid software,
cause, simple, with Linux you cannot do things which you can do with Windows, like playing games
on it, or run some programs that are important to you that are unavailable for your OS if your OS
is Linux. Stealing is wrong, but not so wrong when you can't afford something.
I'll save any nickle for hardware, I'll even pay a fee for CD's and DVD's,
but I don't think saving for special programs that I won't need so much,
since I'm just average PC user will give me satisfaction.

I support freeware and I'd rather see some small fees paid monthly for using software,
over years than whole price at once. Also price should not be the same for people who
shall have profit out of it like professional web designers, and average users who get nothing
for what they make, but just satisfaction of having their own page online.
Rolling Eyes
kicy
Linux cannot replace Microsoft. It can imitate it but not all companies will make programs compatible for linux and only Microsoft. I'm tired of always seeing this, linux maybe agruable but only that at most. For a hardcore computer user like me there are programs that can only be ran on microsoft that I cannot do with out.
fadirocks
when i was in undergrad I was covered under school's unlimited MS license but now in grad school they made me buy XP Pro Sad but yea I wouldn't buy this junk because I don't think it deserves my money!
Actually I'm kinda happy with WinXP Pro SP2 Razz I guess it's heaven compared what I used to use of other Windows Versions Razz

But you shouldn't pirate MS junk, you should just use something else instead Razz
blk3
Animal wrote:
Goatmonkey wrote:
Yeah I think there should be low price versions as well even if they have tu cut out some of the features. It does not make since to charge alot if people can just pirate instead.


Companies should not have to cut their prices just because other people choose to steal their software.

Put yourself in their place. You work every day for several years to create a piece of software that does its job perfectly. You put it on the interet yourself for $50 - you sell a few copies, then find out hundreds or thousands of people are using the software without paying you for it. The software is "in the open" so the amount of money you make plummets.

There is no excuse for stealing software. For virtually everything (except very specialist programs or games) there is a free alternative.

Linux = Free Windows
Thunderbird = Free Outlook
Open Office = Free Microsoft Office
AVG Free = Free Norton AntiVirus

All you have to do is search Sourceforge and you'll be able to find a free version of almost anything.

If you can't afford a program, use an alternative. In many cases, the alternatives are better that the paid-versions. Sorry, but I have no sympathy for people who try to justify theft. If you really can't afford it and don't like the alternatives, do without.


Is there a free alternative for Visual Basic 6 ? (I'm not referring to free programming language as I know there are lots of free pl out there, I'm talking about VB6 in particular, almost same GUI look and programming syntax as that.)
Arnie
You could also learn a slightly different programming language. Or if you're not willing to do that, pay for VB6.
ssthanapati
I still think reducing the price of Windows in the countries where piracy is high will help in generating more revenue. And i dont think i really need to explain this in detail as a general rule if the sale increases considerably production cost decreses. For example if MS was able to sell 1 copy to every 10 person but now outta 10, 9 of em buy the original one then naturally the revenue can b increased
BrianElliott0218
SoftStag wrote:
You cannot justify using pirated software. It is illegal and immoral. DON'T DO IT!

If everyone who used pirated software actually paid for it, then the software manufacturers could drop the price making it more available.


This is a load of bull. It doesn't matter how many people steal it (though I agree Linux is a great alternative, and indeed a good one even if you aren't too poor for a paid OS) M$ will still charge as much as they want to for the software. They have a cartel that blackmails OEM's into using it on their systems, and they make more money on crappy operating systems and programs than any other company in the software biz.

For the amount of trouble we have to go through to fix broken Windows issues and the other M$ software that runs on their proprietary systems, we can run a Linux version and be running with it.

I think they can do better, and each time they release a "new" Windows OS, they completely underwhelm me. Vista is a sham, and it should be illegal for them to get away with the kind of crap they pull.

On the other hand it run on most systems, so maybe I'm wrong about M$, BUT, I have still determined to use Linux and convert my clients to Linux as much as I can. The free stuff is just more satisfying.

~BE

Quote:
Pirates!!!!....i can understand that everyone cannot afford buying original ones...but that does not mean we can use pirated ones..It costs a lot for the Software companies to produce all that stuff...and if we use pirated ones...its like we are betraying them and almost like we are taking away their income.

OH! I'm so crying for the Microsoft people "losing money"... RIGHT!!!! Have you taken a look at their profits per person compared to your earnings per person? Oh, and don't forget, every few years they will come out with another version that is bigger, but not better than the last one... AND you can be sure that it will not likely run on the hardware you bought the month before it came out!

Quote:
For such reasons only Linux has become free...and is freely available in the internet.

No, for such reasons Linux did not become free... Read a little bit on the history of Linux. It has ALWAYS been available free as an alternative to UNIX (which is not free in most cases, and doesn't run on x86 technology). The Linux community has always been about free and community developed software, and not always for the simple humanitarian reason of creating publicly accessible software. Many do it to improve on skills, and to embellish their work credentials.

Quote:
If you can just try to bear the internet charges,its more than enough. U get everything for free there.

How do you get online again? With an OS that can get there, or just from love? I can't think of an internet cafe that has burners available...

Quote:
Also Linux is becoming more similar to windows and also more powerful...all the applications now you get in Windows are freely available in the internet for Linux.
So if people cannot afford original ones, then its better they use Other Operating Systems which are freely available than just betraying the Software companies.

I still can't see it as betraying the Software Companies. These folks make huge profits! But at least you're talking sensibly here on the subject of Linux. Free to download and to use, a you can even sell it yourself if you want to. It's best to do it by selling a PC with it install and ready to go, but whatever gets it out there as an alternative is good for me.

Happy computing!
~BE

Animal wrote:
Please don't double-post. In future, use the EDIT button if you have something to add before another user has replied.
J-Evil
blk3 wrote:

Is there a free alternative for Visual Basic 6 ? (I'm not referring to free programming language as I know there are lots of free pl out there, I'm talking about VB6 in particular, almost same GUI look and programming syntax as that.)


Visual Basic Express 2008. It's free to download and register on the Microßoft website and there's even a feature to convert Visual Basic 6 code to VB 2008 code Cool
drowningworld
varun_dodla wrote:
Pirates!!!!....i can understand that everyone cannot afford buying original ones...but that does not mean we can use pirated ones..It costs a lot for the Software companies to produce all that stuff...and if we use pirated ones...its like we are betraying them and almost like we are taking away their income.
For such reasons only Linux has become free...and is freely available in the internet. If you can just try to bear the internet charges,its more than enough. U get everything for free there.
Also Linux is becoming more similar to windows and also more powerful...all the applications now you get in Windows are freely available in the internet for Linux.
So if people cannot afford original ones, then its better they use Other Operating Systems which are freely available than just betraying the Software companies.
Well your logic is justified but honestly i agree with pirates for instance photoshop for example 1000 dollars for a computer program more expensive than an average computer Sad if you ask me its like there stealing from us.and what about drm bull **** i suppose there right for doing that to so i cant sync music i bought onto my Zune seriously...
silverdown
Well, using pirated software is not a great idea and I really don't recommend it because if caught you could face serious consequences. If you can't afford it, then don't look for trouble because you would be a reason why the company has to raise the price for honest buyers to accumulate what the loss it for their product income for there programmers and support staff. JUST don't do it!
oskuro
I will always download everything i can.

I wont make business with it, only for private use, but i am not that crazy to pay all the money that many software programs cost.
bulek
I haven't bought original software since I have computer because I believe that since you are using software only for home business and you don't make profit with it, there is no need to pay enormous amount of cash only to "play" with the program.
catscratches
saiyeek wrote:
I am sorry to tell but it is true, every versions of my windows programs are pirated. I don't think i have ever used windows versions original or any other costly software paying price. I live in Nepal, one of developing countries of the world. Our per capita income is 240USD thats too small amount. If I ever had to pay for the softwares I wanted to use, till now it will amount many times of my yearly expenditure. Many of my countrymen use pirated softwares. Pirated software are found here are there in the market. I recently bought Windows XP Media Center Edition with 0.5 dollar, so cheap, its was pirated but it works fine and for me piracy has been only way i have been getting the softwares.
I think there should be LOW PRICE EDITION of the softwares for the people of he countries like mine, so as to lower down the piracy.
Yeah, you know what? I was in the shop and there was that nice computer. I couldn't afford so I bought an ex from someone who stole it from the shop! There should be a LOW PRICE EDITION of the goods so that people who don't want to spend money on it buys and to lower theft.

(Warning: This is irony. But pretty much what saiyeek says, just with other words and examples.)
catscratches
oskuro wrote:
I will always download everything i can.

I wont make business with it, only for private use, but i am not that crazy to pay all the money that many software programs cost.
Yeah. Exactly. It's okey to steal as long as you don't use it for other than personal use. Come on! Let's rob the bank!
Stubru Freak
catscratches wrote:
saiyeek wrote:
I am sorry to tell but it is true, every versions of my windows programs are pirated. I don't think i have ever used windows versions original or any other costly software paying price. I live in Nepal, one of developing countries of the world. Our per capita income is 240USD thats too small amount. If I ever had to pay for the softwares I wanted to use, till now it will amount many times of my yearly expenditure. Many of my countrymen use pirated softwares. Pirated software are found here are there in the market. I recently bought Windows XP Media Center Edition with 0.5 dollar, so cheap, its was pirated but it works fine and for me piracy has been only way i have been getting the softwares.
I think there should be LOW PRICE EDITION of the softwares for the people of he countries like mine, so as to lower down the piracy.
Yeah, you know what? I was in the shop and there was that nice computer. I couldn't afford so I bought an ex from someone who stole it from the shop! There should be a LOW PRICE EDITION of the goods so that people who don't want to spend money on it buys and to lower theft.

(Warning: This is irony. But pretty much what saiyeek says, just with other words and examples.)


You fail to see that there is a big difference between stealing and pirating. When pirating, unless you planned to legally buy it, nobody loses. It's a win-win situation. The user has the software, and the company gets free advertising (and, in the case of Windows, a market monopoly). When planning to buy it, the company loses money, and piracy is bad.
Of course nobody can prove that he didn't plan to buy it, so piracy should remain illegal. But if you're honest with yourself, there is no reason to feel guilty about pirating software.
welshsteve
I totally agree withthe majority here in that there really is no excuse for using pirated software. As Animal said earlier in the thread, if you work hard to produce something, then sell it to a few people, then find out thousands of people around the world are using pirated copies of your work, without you getting any money for it, you'd be pretty miffed wouldn't you?

If everyone paid for software, the price would come down. How do you think supermarkets sell things cheaper than small shops? Because they sell so many, the manufacturers sell it to the supermarkets for a cheaper price, enabling the supermarket to still make a nice profit despite charging less for it.
cvkien
pirated software in my belief is that their price is too high! that why those who cannot afford it steal to use the software and that makes everyone, a lot of them think that since everyone is using pirated software, then the people just follow the trend and that makes a lot of pirated in the world.

Let say if the software price is low enough, or i can say affordable, like the price of DVD movie or VCD, i believe people will tend to buy original and that would lower or i can say decrease pirated software by 80 percent because it is more worth to buy original than pirated if the price is reasonable.

But the reality is the original software cost more than 100 times than the pirated software. In this case, of cause people will consider to buy pirated software.

If a windows cost 100 dollar, i think 5 in 100 will buy original and they would have 500 dollar income.
If a windows cost 10 dollar, then i think 99 in 100 will buy original and they would get 990 dollar of income.
Da Rossa
But there is something that not everyone realises: developing software is actually tough! Go check a powerful program like photoshop: I understand that the price is waaaay above, but the thing is real hard to do. We must, also, give the credit to the developers, not the company itself.
soljarag
They DO have different prices... its called educational version


If your not in school... well, if you cant afford it, then you can't always have everything you want...
westcp
i would think all software producers would provide some form of demo version or learning edition - maya gives you a free learnign edition for you to play around with - fully featured and everything, but your rendered images come out with a water mark and hence you wouldnt be able to use it for anything, but still a good idea.

as for OS

thats a tough one. i have vista basic (legal version) although it was left at my ex computer shop which liquidated by a client. so finders keepers and all. and it activated 100% etc.

but agreed on costs

in south africa, basic vista is R1500 I think, office another R1000+. and then if you want adobe photoshop damn comes in at R4000.

put in in perspective, minimum wages here is around 2000. some people only get R1200 or less. and a computer costs you at least R4000.

so things are tough.

only other solution I feel would be to go to a free version of linux, and then use open source software. there is a lot out there. Gimp i think is free, open office is free, firefox browser pakcaged with linux GUI OS) free again.

so all in all, not a bad world if you want to go free, one can do it legally.

i just need to find a good version of mandriva now!
Flakky
Makes no sense to lower the prices in Nepal or other countries with a low GDP. Europeans will visit your lands to buy software. I recommend using free alternatives (like everyone else has suggested as well)
Da Rossa
Flakky wrote:
Makes no sense to lower the prices in Nepal or other countries with a low GDP. Europeans will visit your lands to buy software. I recommend using free alternatives (like everyone else has suggested as well)


Free alternatives are not always satisfactory.
Flakky
Da Rossa wrote:
Flakky wrote:
Makes no sense to lower the prices in Nepal or other countries with a low GDP. Europeans will visit your lands to buy software. I recommend using free alternatives (like everyone else has suggested as well)


Free alternatives are not always satisfactory.
True, but I can also recommend to continue piracy Razz
Da Rossa
The problem is that the free software developers don't have the same motivation the employees from Adobe or M$ have.
Stubru Freak
Da Rossa wrote:
The problem is that the free software developers don't have the same motivation the employees from Adobe or M$ have.


Actually, free software developers are more motivated. They want to deliver good software, while paid employees just want to finish their software by the deadline, no matter if it works properly or not.
welshsteve
When you look at the big software packages that most people use, there are very good and capable free open source alternatives.

Here are some examples

MS Office - OpenOffice
Dreamweaver - HTML Kit
Photoshop - Paint.NET or GIMP
CuteFTP - Filezilla
Outlook - Thunderbird

There really is no excuse for using pirated software. Just like life, live within your means and you'll be fine.
Arnie
Stubru Freak wrote:
Da Rossa wrote:
The problem is that the free software developers don't have the same motivation the employees from Adobe or M$ have.


Actually, free software developers are more motivated. They want to deliver good software, while paid employees just want to finish their software by the deadline, no matter if it works properly or not.
Actually it's impossible to compare the two just like that. "Motivation" is a complex quantity (if you can define it as quantity at all) that doesn't only depend on whether the person codes CSS or OSS.
Da Rossa
Stubru Freak wrote:
Da Rossa wrote:
The problem is that the free software developers don't have the same motivation the employees from Adobe or M$ have.


Actually, free software developers are more motivated. They want to deliver good software, while paid employees just want to finish their software by the deadline, no matter if it works properly or not.


I don't see that way. Free software developers don't owe anyone anything, that's why we often see some very good applications being discontinued.
The motivation the property-software gives is the salary paid for the designers and coders. Simple. And they don't actually have a DEADLINE; I'm not sure whether M$ would deliver a malfunctioned program, that's why Vista as delayed because every single line was rewritten.

The will to deliver good software is not enough, imo. This doesn't mean that all paid software are better. Firefox >>>>> Internet Explorer, for example.

Quote:
MS Office - OpenOffice
Dreamweaver - HTML Kit
Photoshop - Paint.NET or GIMP
CuteFTP - Filezilla
Outlook - Thunderbird


Don't be naive. You can't compare OpenOffice with MS Office2k7.
Dreamweaver and it's rivals is arguable, but nothing beats photoshop. Gimp is a wannabe when compared to PS.
Cute FTP, on the other hand, is ridiculous, Filezilla is the way to go.
And comparing TB with Outlook is not fair as well. Outlook > Thunderbird, unless you mean Outlook express, then I agree.
Stubru Freak
Da Rossa wrote:
Stubru Freak wrote:
Da Rossa wrote:
The problem is that the free software developers don't have the same motivation the employees from Adobe or M$ have.


Actually, free software developers are more motivated. They want to deliver good software, while paid employees just want to finish their software by the deadline, no matter if it works properly or not.


I don't see that way. Free software developers don't owe anyone anything, that's why we often see some very good applications being discontinued.
The motivation the property-software gives is the salary paid for the designers and coders. Simple. And they don't actually have a DEADLINE; I'm not sure whether M$ would deliver a malfunctioned program, that's why Vista as delayed because every single line was rewritten.

The will to deliver good software is not enough, imo. This doesn't mean that all paid software are better. Firefox >>>>> Internet Explorer, for example.


Programmers do have deadlines, they're just always too late.
But I can agree with that. Popular proprietary software is rarely just discontinued. But quality-wise, I believe free software is better. For proprietary software, the focus is on a fast release, so they get income from it sooner, while free software is more about making the product perfect. (Of course, don't confuse this with the "release early, release often" habit in free software. Free software has more unstable versions released, but when a stable version is released, it can be expected to be better in my experience.) For a good example of this, take Wine, where the first stable version has been released about 15 years after the first line of code was written. (Although it doesn't have any proprietary equivalent that I know of.)

Quote:
MS Office - OpenOffice
Dreamweaver - HTML Kit
Photoshop - Paint.NET or GIMP
CuteFTP - Filezilla
Outlook - Thunderbird


Don't be naive. You can't compare OpenOffice with MS Office2k7.
Dreamweaver and it's rivals is arguable, but nothing beats photoshop. Gimp is a wannabe when compared to PS.
Cute FTP, on the other hand, is ridiculous, Filezilla is the way to go.
And comparing TB with Outlook is not fair as well. Outlook > Thunderbird, unless you mean Outlook express, then I agree.[/quote]

I don't agree with that though:
I've never used Office 2007, only Office XP, so maybe those features got added, but I'm missing some functionality in MS Office XP that I do have in OpenOffice. Some examples: OpenOffice allows me to open WordPerfect files (of course also Microsoft documents), OpenOffice has a (properly working) grammar check for all languages I regularly write in (Dutch, English and French) and, the best feature, it allows easy exporting to PDF without third-party plug-ins. It has been a while since I used MS Office though so I could be wrong on this one.
I agree with you on Photoshop, though for my use Photoshop is way too expensive so I'm happy I have the Gimp. But if you're a professional, nothing beats Photoshop.
And indeed, comparing Thunderbird with Outlook isn't fair. Thunderbird is more like Outlook Express. For a full replacement to Outlook Evolution is good, but sadly only available on Linux.

So except for Photoshop, you can get a good free equivalent of all the software you need. This is assuming you use Linux, because it's quite silly to spend a lot of money on Windows if you can't afford most commercial software. The only good reason to use Windows is the commercial software available.
Diablosblizz
I believe he is simply stating that there are always free applications out there that do the same with just as many features, or more or less. IMO, free and open source software is much better than paid (except NOD32 - great antivirus that you need to pay for).

I don't really know what side I am on, while I agree it's totally illegal. I mean, a LOT of people (including me) download Music from P2P clients such as Limewire or Bearshare. That's illegal, although (as of now) no action is really been taken place. I mean, if people really cared than companies that produce music, or anybody for that matter, could get the IP's of the host and report it to somebody. Heck, my ISP gives instructions on how to disable file sharing, but why uploading the files and not downloading? I don't really understand that.

So I am sort of on the post with that.
Arnie
Diablosblizz wrote:
I believe he is simply stating that there are always free applications out there that do the same with just as many features, or more or less.
Which is very hard to prove, as most statements that contain the word "always" or "all". We just have to find one counterexample to disprove it.

Although I don't think the only good reason to use Windows is the commercially available software. There are many Win-only freewares that may be interesting for certain people.
welshsteve
Evolution is now available for Windows - http://www.dipconsultants.com/evolution/

You can dowload it here - http://www.computeractive.co.uk/computeractive/downloads/2227155/evolution
Stubru Freak
welshsteve wrote:
Evolution is now available for Windows - http://www.dipconsultants.com/evolution/

You can dowload it here - http://www.computeractive.co.uk/computeractive/downloads/2227155/evolution


Wow that's so cool! That must've been so much work.
karlo8890
For me, piracy is a big no no to every country in the world, even the poorest of the poor. We are violating the patent that the company has applied for. But I also agree with the others that they earn too much by releasing a new Office yearly.

Here in the Philippines, software piracy is also widespread and maybe the best way to get software for free.

Hoping those guys at Microsoft or any other companies selling their Operating Systems, maybe you can lower the price in the third world countries like the Philippines.
dude_xyx
I guess it works both ways. I think if companies like Adobe or MS want to stop pirate copies in 3 rd world countries they can do it, at least up to a level. But They don't try hard because making people stop using pirate copies don't mean that people gonna buy it. In these parts people simply would move to open source alternatives. So its a loose loose situation for them. So keeping a blind it helps them to keep the monopoly also stop wasting legal fees for suing those who wouldn't pay even they are sued.

But I think open source community getting bigger and better. With software like Filezilla , thunderbird , firefox people really don't have to go for paid software. So far only software I couldn't find matching free alternatives are Photoshop, Flash and Dreamweaver.
Flakky
What do you guys think what will happen in the future? Lower prices on every piece of software available but advertisements in the program to generate revenue, even in poorer countries? This however can not be applied to middleware software.
TheOnionRack
I don't pirate anything. It is surprisingly easy, there are plenty of open source alternatives to expensive software, which are free! Very Happy
amperx
just like everyone is saying, just use the alternatives, otherwise in a country like mine, where pirating is rampant, you cant just escape from it, usually you'd end up using pirated software, but i try my best to practice those comments from the top use the alternatives, but some apps, like adobe after effects and paint programs just doesnt have good alternative, or none at all, so then again, depending on your region you could end up just using pirated ones.. T_T
alappuzhakaran
Ha.. I think Free alternatives are the best way to get out of cost.. if you cant afford vista go for ubuntu.. or even an open solaris 10. Or a linux version.. if you cant afford office Open office 3 is good for you.. if you cant afford outlook go for pegasus, a free pop client.. and so on... There are better and reliable alternatives than microsoft can offer.. only thing is tat you must open your eyes and look around to find the one that suits you.

--
Vishnu M.
http://beautifulminds.in
alappuzhakaran
Quote:
but some apps, like adobe after effects and paint programs just doesnt have good alternative, or none at all, so then again, depending on your region you could end up just using pirated ones


Alternatives are there for paint programs like paint.net and gimp..
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