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| Quote: | KINGS CANYON NATIONAL PARK, Calif. - Spiders, centipedes and scorpion-like critters are among the 27 new animal species that biologists have discovered in the dark, damp caves of two Central California national parks, officials announced Tuesday.
The finds were made during a three-year study of 30 caves in Sequoia and Kings Canyon national parks. Many of the creatures live only in caves _ and some only in one particular cave of Sequoia and Kings Canyon, according to the study, conducted by park staff and biologists from Austin, Texas-based Zara Environmental .
"We thought we might find a handful of new species," said Joel Despain, cave specialist for the parks. "It was amazing to find 27."
Park officials said the cave-dwelling invertebrates can tell scientists a lot about environmental problems or changes because of their sensitivity to surroundings.
Sequoia and Kings Canyon National Parks have 238 known caves. |
By Associated Press
NEAT!
Sorry, I'm a geek and I find these things really amazing. The cave was probably cut off from the rest of the world for so long that these creatures evolved to what they are without inside influences. If you take two fish from the same pond and toss them in different ponds (over hundreds of year and generations), they will become two completely different fish.
Here's a pic of one of the things they found. Looks like a half beetle half scorpion thing. Again, pretty neat 
And they still have hundreds of caves yet to explore. Who knows, maybe we'll find those mutated creatures from the movie "The Cave" o.O
lol 
I like bugs too. 
I saw that on a news ticker last night and was gonna look it up today. This will be yet another stake in the heart of ID.
Did he vote for SchwartzeNegger (just found out what it means) too?
If your interested in evolutionary peculiarities try looking for Darwins Finches or Galapagos Finches. There are about 13 species of finches on the Islands that have all developed to fill massively varied niches in their environment. They were all evolving right alongside each other though on the same islands!! Darwin actually tought they were different species according to Wikipedia.
There's a good site here about it http://www.rit.edu/~rhrsbi/GalapagosPages/DarwinFinch.html
SEB
It is quite amazing what evolution can come up with. I mean yea that does look like a cross breed of a half beetle half scorpion. I wonder what other type animals or creatures are out there. I mean just think of the possabilities. For example, here is a picture of a Zonkey. Yes that is right, a Zonkey. Cross breed of a Zeebra and a Donkey
Oh yay. That's what we all need. More damn bugs. Stupid things, all they're good for i cutting open (alive, of course) and putting on top of gas heating and watching their legs burn and shrivel up whilst their feelers are still waving about.
I'm no freak, it's just funny.
| madsencarl wrote: | | Oh yay. That's what we all need. More damn bugs. Stupid things, all they're good for i cutting open (alive, of course) and putting on top of gas heating and watching their legs burn and shrivel up whilst their feelers are still waving about. |
O.O
Or, you know, pollinating things and eating smaller disease-carrying insects that we would otherwise have little defense against. Also, they're an important middle food source for higher life forms.
| Quote: | | I'm no freak, it's just funny. |
I could argue against both of these. -_-;
| glennesau wrote: | It is quite amazing what evolution can come up with. I mean yea that does look like a cross breed of a half beetle half scorpion. I wonder what other type animals or creatures are out there. I mean just think of the possabilities. For example, here is a picture of a Zonkey. Yes that is right, a Zonkey. Cross breed of a Zeebra and a Donkey
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I agree this is interesting with the Zonkey, but that's a completely different thing than what the Thread Owner talked about. He talked about evolvement of species, whereas you are talking about crossbreeding of two different species...
| LimpFish wrote: | | He talked about evolvement of species, whereas you are talking about crossbreeding of two different species... |
Evolution.
(sorry.)
| LimpFish wrote: |
I agree this is interesting with the Zonkey, but that's a completely different thing than what the Thread Owner talked about. He talked about evolvement of species, whereas you are talking about crossbreeding of two different species... |
If the crossbreeding results in fertile descendants, the two could sometimes be the same thing.
(Assuming that the half-breed has some evolutionary advantage over either parent.)
I find it terrible when they do it to animals. Sort of an abomination. I've just checked up on the zonkey in Wikipedia, could not find a zonkey, but a zebroid instead, but just look at this Web page. I was unaware they have been experimenting like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zonkey
There is a photo of a donkey/zebra hybrid that looks quite different to the one in this thread:
| deanhills wrote: | | I find it terrible when they do it to animals. |
Some times the animals do it to each other, even in the wild, as in the case of the grolar bear.
(Clockwise: A female hybrid, male hybrid, polar bear and brown bear)
And I happen to know that horses and donkeys don't need any encouragement for mule-making... only opportunity.
| ocalhoun wrote: | | And I happen to know that horses and donkeys don't need any encouragement for mule-making... only opportunity. |
Is that the same however as experimenting on the animals? At least when they are out there they have a choice in the matter?
| deanhills wrote: | I find it terrible when they do it to animals. Sort of an abomination. I've just checked up on the zonkey in Wikipedia, could not find a zonkey, but a zebroid instead, but just look at this Web page. I was unaware they have been experimenting like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zonkey
There is a photo of a donkey/zebra hybrid that looks quite different to the one in this thread:
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...you realize, of course, these aren't in vitro hybrids, don't you? No-one is doing anything to these animals except bringing them into proximity. They generally aren't experimental, either; just the natural result of two similar species in the same enclosure. How is this an abomination?
| quex wrote: | | ...you realize, of course, these aren't in vitro hybrids, don't you? No-one is doing anything to these animals except bringing them into proximity. They generally aren't experimental, either; just the natural result of two similar species in the same enclosure. How is this an abomination? |
Thanks for setting me right quex. You were right on that I was thinking cage, lab, and being artificially impregnated with altered embryos. When I saw the photos in the Wikipedia article they were so "gross" I thought that must have been how it happened. But when I checked up with a second reading, I was obviously wrong.
When I went back to Wikipedia to check up, I found this interesting information about zorses/zonies.
| Quote: | | Today, various zebroids are bred as riding and draft animals, and as curiosities in circuses and smaller zoos. A zorse (more accurately a zony) was born at Eden Ostrich World, Cumbria, England in 2001 after a zebra was left in a field with a Shetland pony. It was referred to as a Zetland. This was the inspiration for the 2003 'Song for the Zorse' by London band The Coronets. According to local lore, brown zorses have been spotted in the foothills of the Appalachians in and around Charlottesville, Virginia. Usually, a zebra stallion is paired with a horse mare or ass mare, but in 2005, a Burchell's zebra named Allison produced a zonkey called Alex sired by a donkey at Highland plantation in the parish of Saint Thomas, Barbados. Alex, born 21 April 2005, is apparently the first zonkey in Barbados. In 2007, a stallion, Ulysses, and a zebra mare, Eclipse, produced a zebroid named Eclyse, displaying an unusually patchy color coating. The Wild Animal Safari in Springfield, MO has several zedonks as of March 31, 2010. In July 2010, a zedonk was born at the Chestatee Wildlife Preserve in Dahlonega, Georgia. Zorses are bred in Africa and used for trekking on Mount Kenya; the zebra parent gives resistance to the nagana pest disease. |
| deanhills wrote: | | quex wrote: | | ...you realize, of course, these aren't in vitro hybrids, don't you? No-one is doing anything to these animals except bringing them into proximity. They generally aren't experimental, either; just the natural result of two similar species in the same enclosure. How is this an abomination? |
Thanks for setting me right quex. You were right on that I was thinking cage, lab, and being artificially impregnated with altered embryos. When I saw the photos in the Wikipedia article they were so "gross" I thought that must have been how it happened. But when I checked up with a second reading, I was obviously wrong.
When I went back to Wikipedia to check up, I found this interesting information about zorses/zonies. :)
| Quote: | | Today, various zebroids are bred as riding and draft animals, and as curiosities in circuses and smaller zoos. A zorse (more accurately a zony) was born at Eden Ostrich World, Cumbria, England in 2001 after a zebra was left in a field with a Shetland pony. It was referred to as a Zetland. This was the inspiration for the 2003 'Song for the Zorse' by London band The Coronets. According to local lore, brown zorses have been spotted in the foothills of the Appalachians in and around Charlottesville, Virginia. Usually, a zebra stallion is paired with a horse mare or ass mare, but in 2005, a Burchell's zebra named Allison produced a zonkey called Alex sired by a donkey at Highland plantation in the parish of Saint Thomas, Barbados. Alex, born 21 April 2005, is apparently the first zonkey in Barbados. In 2007, a stallion, Ulysses, and a zebra mare, Eclipse, produced a zebroid named Eclyse, displaying an unusually patchy color coating. The Wild Animal Safari in Springfield, MO has several zedonks as of March 31, 2010. In July 2010, a zedonk was born at the Chestatee Wildlife Preserve in Dahlonega, Georgia. Zorses are bred in Africa and used for trekking on Mount Kenya; the zebra parent gives resistance to the nagana pest disease. |
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Oh, good, then. It's surprising how powerful the drive to reproduce is, eh? Nature just makes the pieces fit sometimes, even when they're a little off.
Did you bold that last line? Again, I'm not sure if this will be a revelation, but "breeding" doesn't mean forced procreation, either. Since ancient times, breeding is just the act of putting two animals together, one male and one female (or in some species, multiple females) to increase the chances of getting those selected two to breed. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. The only part of the equation that is at all unnatural is the selection of the two as determined by humans -- the sick, deformed, or those prone to other defects are generally not chosen to meet the opposite sex. Those bearing benefits, like resistance to a common disease in the region, are chosen to breed more often as they offer a natural benefit to their young.
If I'm not mistaken, the Zorses in Kenya are bred in the traditional manner of breeding horses, cows, and goats; when the female is in heat, she is given a paddock separate from the other females and a male is introduced. If she fights with this first male, he is removed and a second male is introduced, and so on. This is the basic method used across Africa, and indeed, across the entire world, for the natural breeding of ungulate livestock. Methods vary slightly across classes of animals, of course. Chickens are often kept in constant presence of a rooster, who will mate just as often as the chickens lay eggs, which can be daily. Fish or snakes must be more closely monitored and removed from their female partner, as many species have the tendency to eat their own eggs. It gets even more confusing with particularly sensitive species bred in captivity, such as rare birds or pandas, when their own reluctance to reproduce is one of the factors that has rarefied them. Pandas must be secluded in a special habitat with the correct ratio of food, water, humidity, foliage cover, and level of ambient noise; the female must be in a very short window of heat to be receptive to the male (some research suggests it's only 6 hours, compared to the human 5 to 15 days of fertility), and even then, the chances of success are less than 10%. Zookeepers actually display footage of other pandas mating or the sounds of mating pandas to encourage copulation. In these unusual cases, one really could make an argument that the animals are being coerced into reproducing... although the counter argument, that it is necessary to preserve the sum species, is even easier to present.
| ocalhoun wrote: | | deanhills wrote: | | I find it terrible when they do it to animals. |
Some times the animals do it to each other, even in the wild, as in the case of the grolar bear.
(Clockwise: A female hybrid, male hybrid, polar bear and brown bear)
And I happen to know that horses and donkeys don't need any encouragement for mule-making... only opportunity. |
On a side note, there is a town around here called Oatman where wild burros come right up and try to find food on your person. A few of them are marked with prominent brown, black, and grey spots, not found in any natural donkey breed in America. These are descended from real wild burros who once inter-mated with wild pinto horses in Texas and Mexico, somehow transferring the markings to the burros' genes. Other horse-pattern markings can also be found in the wild burros of the southwestern desert, such as black-chest, sorrel bands, and dapple grey.
But I really just wanted to say this so I could post cuddly Oatman donkey clips. They look kinda stupid on film, but in real life, they are SO soft, and their ears flop around... if you're there for a visit and you get up really early in the morning, they'll still be out on the hills instead of in the town, and they run around in a giant herd kicking up clouds of dust a mile long. So awesome. :D
| quex wrote: | | Oh, good, then. It's surprising how powerful the drive to reproduce is, eh? Nature just makes the pieces fit sometimes, even when they're a little off. |
I guess they must think it is quite fun as well. Sort of a nice variety .... 
| quex wrote: | | Did you bold that last line? |
Yes I did, but not for the purpose of illustrating forced procreation. Just the fact that that mix actually made for progress and served a specific purpose with a very good and solid objective.
| quex wrote: | | If I'm not mistaken, the Zorses in Kenya are bred in the traditional manner of breeding horses, cows, and goats; when the female is in heat, she is given a paddock separate from the other females and a male is introduced. If she fights with this first male, he is removed and a second male is introduced, and so on. This is the basic method used across Africa, and indeed, across the entire world, for the natural breeding of ungulate livestock. |
Thanks for the added info.
| quex wrote: |
Did you bold that last line? Again, I'm not sure if this will be a revelation, but "breeding" doesn't mean forced procreation, either. |
Well, actually, sometimes it does.
In horses, sometimes the stallion is basically trained to rape, and the mare is tied up and/or tranquilized.
| ocalhoun wrote: | | quex wrote: |
Did you bold that last line? Again, I'm not sure if this will be a revelation, but "breeding" doesn't mean forced procreation, either. |
Well, actually, sometimes it does.
In horses, sometimes the stallion is basically trained to rape, and the mare is tied up and/or tranquilized. |
Will be interesting to hear what Quex's thoughts are. Sounds pretty horrible to me Ocalhoun. Although still better than the original thought I had of embryos being emplanted and experimented on.
| deanhills wrote: | | Sounds pretty horrible to me Ocalhoun. |
All done in the name of safety and efficiency, of course.
| deanhills wrote: | | ocalhoun wrote: | | quex wrote: |
Did you bold that last line? Again, I'm not sure if this will be a revelation, but "breeding" doesn't mean forced procreation, either. |
Well, actually, sometimes it does.
In horses, sometimes the stallion is basically trained to rape, and the mare is tied up and/or tranquilized. |
Will be interesting to hear what Quex's thoughts are. Sounds pretty horrible to me Ocalhoun. Although still better than the original thought I had of embryos being emplanted and experimented on. |
The word "rape" does make it sound to be harsh. When put in different terms, it doesn't sound so disturbing and harsh. Lol.
Anyways, I'd also like to point out this topic is over four years old. So the "new" species as informed about in the first post are not exactly new anymore.
| ocalhoun wrote: | | quex wrote: |
Did you bold that last line? Again, I'm not sure if this will be a revelation, but "breeding" doesn't mean forced procreation, either. |
Well, actually, sometimes it does.
In horses, sometimes the stallion is basically trained to rape, and the mare is tied up and/or tranquilized. |
True. However, under current law, tranquilizing an animal for breeding purposes is considered animal cruelty in the USA, UK, and Canada (and likely elsewhere). Tying an unwilling mare is also cruelty under Texas and Arizona law, at least, although I'm not certain if that's the case in all 50 states.
Strangely enough, in-vitro fertilization (for which some persons have expressed their disgust in this very conversation) is considered the humane and legally acceptable alternative to mating two livestock when natural mating is complicated to the point of failure, be it by infertility, an unreceptive female, or some medical disadvantage. However, natural breeding is still preferred by most farmers and breeders, for two reasons:
1) Proof that both male and female remain virile, ensuring that the maintenance of both creatures remains a worthwhile investment to the farmer or breeder.
2) Less loss of time and investment. Embryos made by direct human selection at the cellular level are not all as likely to be the best combination of sperm and egg, leading to a higher rate of embryonic failure, auto-abortion, or miscarriage. The process of hedging against this likelihood involves fertilizing many eggs, then selecting the apparent "strongest" embryo for a chance to be born. Even then, if a combination of bad genes effects 100% of the embryos, the offspring will be somehow deformed and thereby unfit for further progression through the gene pool. All of this involves time, money, and manpower far beyond the method of simply placing two horses in the same paddock.
Question: How do you train a stallion to rape? o.o? I am doubtful that a stallion is conditioned by humans to display anything other than his own sexual drive... are there prosthetic females involved?
Also, my apologies if this double-posts; I'm waiting in line to vote, and the WiFi is sketchy.
| quex wrote: | | Question: How do you train a stallion to rape? o.o? I am doubtful that a stallion is conditioned by humans to display anything other than his own sexual drive... are there prosthetic females involved? |
Good question quex. I was puzzled by that too. Glad that there is legislation in some places for tranquilizing for breeding purposes.
Well, not exactly a new species, but since we were talking about interbreeding further up the page, I found this article very interesting. Adaptation, mutation, or latent capability triggered by the environment?
| quex wrote: | | Well, not exactly a new species, but since we were talking about interbreeding further up the page, I found this article very interesting. Adaptation, mutation, or latent capability triggered by the environment? |
Quite amazing. Wonder whether this kind of evolving is part of our genes. Would be interesting to see whether that could ever happen with humans?
| quex wrote: |
Question: How do you train a stallion to rape? o.o? I am doubtful that a stallion is conditioned by humans to display anything other than his own sexual drive... are there prosthetic females involved?
|
Well, to answer this, let me compare two life stories:
A- Herd raised stallion:
He's born, and his mother raises him for about 1 year within a functioning 'society'. At the end of this year, he begins to mature and starts to take an interest in mares. However, those mares will quickly teach him to be very polite, since he is smaller, younger, and less experienced. He also likely has his father, or a different stallion, to watch and see how it's done the right way. When he's grown and has his own herd, he'll remember how to interact socially, remember to be polite or risk injury, and he'll have a good idea on how to court a mare.
B- Badly raised breeding stallion:
He may or may not be kept in a herd along with his mother. He's separated from his mother as soon as he's weaned and no longer needs milk. From this point on, he won't have direct contact with any other horses for a long time. He's raised for a few years, always in his own private stall or private paddock, at best seeing other horses on the other side of a fence. When he's determined to be old enough, he's led out and presented with a mare, tied up and in heat. He's encouraged to mount her with a minimum of social interaction - instincts take over, and he finds that he enjoys this. Then, over and over, this is repeated, the same pattern of 'leave stall, walk right up and mate, go back to stall'...
A stallion from situation 'A' will only mount willing mares, after asking permission (in horse body language), though he may be very persistent in asking.
A stallion from situation 'B' doesn't know any better than to just run up and try to have sex... Which means he can never be trusted unsupervised around mares, further enforcing his isolation.
(Not to mention that horses are extremely social animals. Being kept alone is traumatic for them, and can cause serious mental problems sometimes.)
| ocalhoun wrote: | | quex wrote: |
Question: How do you train a stallion to rape? o.o? I am doubtful that a stallion is conditioned by humans to display anything other than his own sexual drive... are there prosthetic females involved?
|
Well, to answer this, let me compare two life stories:
A- Herd raised stallion:
He's born, and his mother raises him for about 1 year within a functioning 'society'. At the end of this year, he begins to mature and starts to take an interest in mares. However, those mares will quickly teach him to be very polite, since he is smaller, younger, and less experienced. He also likely has his father, or a different stallion, to watch and see how it's done the right way. When he's grown and has his own herd, he'll remember how to interact socially, remember to be polite or risk injury, and he'll have a good idea on how to court a mare.
B- Badly raised breeding stallion:
He may or may not be kept in a herd along with his mother. He's separated from his mother as soon as he's weaned and no longer needs milk. From this point on, he won't have direct contact with any other horses for a long time. He's raised for a few years, always in his own private stall or private paddock, at best seeing other horses on the other side of a fence. When he's determined to be old enough, he's led out and presented with a mare, tied up and in heat. He's encouraged to mount her with a minimum of social interaction - instincts take over, and he finds that he enjoys this. Then, over and over, this is repeated, the same pattern of 'leave stall, walk right up and mate, go back to stall'...
A stallion from situation 'A' will only mount willing mares, after asking permission (in horse body language), though he may be very persistent in asking.
A stallion from situation 'B' doesn't know any better than to just run up and try to have sex... Which means he can never be trusted unsupervised around mares, further enforcing his isolation.
(Not to mention that horses are extremely social animals. Being kept alone is traumatic for them, and can cause serious mental problems sometimes.) |
A perfect explanation. Thank you kindly!
Wonder whether one can apply this situation to humans too? Also traumatic for humans to be isolated? 
| deanhills wrote: | | Also traumatic for humans to be isolated? |
Yes, but not to the same degree, because the herd instinct isn't quite so overwhelming in humans.
-This is because in the wild, a horse separated from the herd is a horse who will probably die soon... Natural selection favors the ones who cling strongly to the herd.
(Though it is still present; 'herd separation anxiety' is called 'loneliness' when it occurs in humans... A good way to explain it is that horses get lonely very easily, and they feel that emotion much more strongly than any human ever could... easily enough to cause anxiety, depression, or worse disorders. Also, because there's nobody to guard them, horses don't sleep well when alone, which adds sleep deprivation to the mix.)
| ocalhoun wrote: | | deanhills wrote: | | Also traumatic for humans to be isolated? |
Yes, but not to the same degree, because the herd instinct isn't quite so overwhelming in humans.
-This is because in the wild, a horse separated from the herd is a horse who will probably die soon... Natural selection favors the ones who cling strongly to the herd.
(Though it is still present; 'herd separation anxiety' is called 'loneliness' when it occurs in humans... A good way to explain it is that horses get lonely very easily, and they feel that emotion much more strongly than any human ever could... easily enough to cause anxiety, depression, or worse disorders. Also, because there's nobody to guard them, horses don't sleep well when alone, which adds sleep deprivation to the mix.) |
Probably depends on the human. Maybe some are better equipped in character and physical make-up to handle being alone than others. Especially those who prefer to have their own space as they aren't really partial to company? All of the symptoms you mentioned are symptoms I've heard about as well in people I know who are living alone. So I imagine those are universal symptoms of loneliness. Wonder how many of our big serial killers were loners as well?
Looking at it the other way round, wonder whether society can really effectively deal with loners. Aren't we the same as the animals in that way too? Most frequently society thinks that those who live alone must have something that is wrong with them so they deal with them as though something is wrong with them. This is especially the case in smaller communities. But often happens in cities too. There are loners who could not care any less what society thinks, but then there are others who can't deal effectively with society's expectations of what a "normal" person is supposed to be like.
Anyway, this is probably a topic for another thread?
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