Alternate Realities

UnderClassman

The existence of God is always on hand. All his "components" are also discussed. One that I find very interesting is Free Will. If you are new to religion, or just came off of an alien planet, Free Will suggests that us humans are capable of anything. We choose to do what we want. God will not stop us. This is naturally the easiest thing to believe since it appears to be happening right now (but that's not the point of this topic).

If Free Will exists, then Alternate Realities must exist.

Say you are walking to some one's house. You approach the door. What do you do? Do you ring the doorbell? Or do you knock? Let’s say you knock. A minute later, some one answers the door. He didn't hear you knock, he was on his way out. "Oh, come on in." then you see he has a knife with what looks to be stained with blood. What do you do? Do you go in? Or do you run away? You run away from the house as fast as you can. You run right into the street and... BOOM! You get hit by a Hummer. You are hospitalized, but the damage is too great. You die.

Now lets revisit the whole scenario. Instead of knocking, let’s say you ring the doorbell. The man opens the door only 30 seconds after hearing it. "Hey, come on in". You see the blood stained knife. You run away. Again, right into the street... SCREECH. The Hummer's breaks grind the car to a halt. You don't get hit by the Hummer because he had enough time to stop.

These are only two possible outcomes. You see what changed because of you decision. By ringing the doorbell, you have saved your life. But by knocking, you ultimately condemn yourself to destruction. Imagine what would have happened if you went inside the house. You would find out that the man with the knife was cooking a big stake dinner. He was having a party to celebrate his birthday, but he had forgotten to get the groceries out of his car that was parked in the front of his house. He was on his way out to get them when you knocked on the door.

Then again, it could have happened so that the man had stabbed his wife an hour before and was just now disposing of the murder weapon when you showed up.

But either way, there were many possible out comes in that scenario. And all that happened inside a few minutes. Think about your whole life. Each decision effects another. And those effect more. You cannot look at your alternate lives as a whole, but only in parts. And parts of those parts at that!

But they do exist, right? What do you think?

Soulfire

I vaguely understand this, and often think about it. Recently a kid in our school died in a car accident, and it makes me wonder how many things had to be perfectly fit together for him to die.

If he had talked for another 5 seconds to his boss before he left work, he would probably still be with us today. Each little thing affects the other little things, and it all falls together.

UnderClassman

I know exactly what you mean. Its not only the decision of one person that effects the reality, but the decisions of both parties (in this case, three).

But the decision each person makes contributes to only one reality. A different decision is a different reality. If three decisions are made by three people, you have to take each of those three decisions and pair them up with the others in sequential order and rotating each decision one by one.

If each reality is possible by a single decision, then there must be billions of googles of realities. Take one persons life for instance. They make 10 decisions in their whole life in reality A. Those decisions spawn off 2 realities each. They cause realities B, C, D, E, etc... In those realities, there are 10 decisions each. And again they result in 2 realities each. And that could continue on until all of the possible realities have been stated.

But we all know that a person will make more decisions than just 10. And each decision will most likely have more than just 2 possible outcomes. And after all the rational decisions are made and calculated, then comes the irrational outcomes.

Say you’re in the park and you’re looking at a fountain. Birds are pecking at the floor because an old lady just put down birdseed. In your rational self, you would smile and move on. But in your irrational self (this reality) you yell, "Booga Wooga" and then move on. The birds take off in a wild motion.

Or say you are driving a Mustang GT 500. You are cruzing the high way at 85 mph. It is divided by a plot of grass only. No guard rail, no curb, nothing but grass. Now in a regular you, you would just keep going. Perhaps you would slow down when you see the cop. But in this reality, you cross the grass to the other side right in front of the cop's eyes. You casually move back into your side of the highway and pull over while the cop signals you to do so.

And that's only your reality. That has no other's reality to play into it directly. But you play into theirs. Those birds you scared back in reality X, they didn't just take off. They flew violently toward the old lady who gave them the food. They flew so fast and so hard that the lady was frightened to death, literally. She suffered from a massive heart attack and died.

The cop that pulled you over was supposed to get shot in a drive by a few minutes later. If you hadn't have caught his attention and if he hadn't have pulled you over, he would have died with 60 rounds of deadly lead in his body. He would be going to heaven seeing as how he would be "holey" (but Heaven exists only in one's imagination.)

And you could even take this a step further (though there are countless results you could explore) and say that due to the old lady's demise, she left 100 million dollars to who ever came to her funeral. The person who went was you. You only went because you thought your friend's funeral was in lot 1 but it was the lady's funeral in that lot. Your friend's was in the next lot over. You receive 50 million dollars because you got confused. The only other person there was a homeless guy, who, needless to say, wasn't homeless for long.

Each reality has its own reasons for being. Those reason have their reasons and those, their own. Each is intertwining. You would never be able to count how many alternate realities there are in the world. And if you ever did figure that out, what time period are you using?

madsencarl

gonzo

a.Bird

UnderClassman

Ok, so many replies.. First things first:

A featured topic? I'm not really sure what that is, but it sounds great (but great is an extremity and deserves the views of both bad and good). If I had to guess, a featured topic would have to be one that draws many people's attention.

gonzo
Free Will is our ability, or our right, to do anything we want to. If we have that ability, the average human is capable of doing what he wants to do. This means he is capable of doing anything. If it is physical impossibilities you are argueing, it is only a matter of time before we grow wings and fly.

We do often choose to do things we don't want to do, but we have the option of not doing them. The consequences that follow may be devastating to a point in which we deem it better to do what we do not want to do, but we still have a choice in the matter.
EX: Your boss tells you to pick him up some daughnuts from the shop 10 miles away. It is about time for you to leave work. You know your boss is about to give you a raise because of all the hard work you do, but you just don't want to get him the doughnuts because you have to be at your son's soccer game. On the other hand, you need the raise in order to sustain a comforting life style. You have the ability to get him the doughnuts, or tell him you have to go and cannot get him the color. (This may be a little weak to serve, but it gets a general point across)

There is no necessity to anything that does not live. This is only nonsense to those who choose to believe so. That is your choice. You have the choice to think this is nonsense. You have the choice to disregard everything you see here. You also have the choice to input something into the matter, which you did, and I thank you.

a.Bird
Ah yes, the clothes. The first thing Adam and Eve choose to do when they ate from the fruit of knowledge was to clothe themselves. They didn't have to, but they did. We naturally followed suit.

My personal preference is to wear clothes when I feel I should. I do not wear clothes in the shower, but I could if I wanted to. It is better to be naked when you take a shower so that the dirt and skin from your body may easily slough off.

But I do wear clothes when I go out. Clothes are more of a statement to me. What I wear is nothing more than the color of my car, or the background of my screen.

I wear clothes not only because I am making a statement, but also because it can get pretty cold during the winter. Would you want to run around outside in 20 degree weather? Probably not... but you could. I wear clothes to protect me from the elements. The clothes I put on isn't just a statement, it is an adaptation. An animal will choose to adapt to its surroundings, or it will die. We have chosen to wear clothes. These clothes protect us from the scorching sun, protect us from the cold wind, protect us from the wet rain.

And the last reason I wear clothes is because it is socially acceptable to do so. It is my respect that I give to people, people I don't even know. I wear clothes to shield their eyes from my naked body. I do it because it is expected of me, but lets not forget what we all have, what we were all given. We can choose not to wear clothes if we feel like not wearing them.

summer-sensation

You know, Underclassman, I think I agree with. I used to think that there were alternate realities all the time when I was little. I don't think my mind has changed... Hmmm...
But yea, I can see how you would think that. Yes, we have free will because God did give it to us. Of couse, someone who might not believe in free will, and ultimately God, might not understand this. At least that's what I think. It all goes back to the free will.
Gosh, anything could happen in this lovely world of ours... Scary...

Vrythramax

Free will is a myth....we do what we have to too survive and then we do what we want to entertain ourselves....but we are still doing something someone else wants us to do. Like just watching TV or a movie...the makers of the entertainment want us to watch so they can sell commercial time.

And as for your analogy of saving your life by ringing the bell instead of knocking on the door....where and how does destiny come into play there? It has been said that you can change your destiny by missing a bus, but wasn't it also your destiny to miss the bus in the first place??

Some of the rest of your disertation I could understand, maybe not agree with, but understand anyway. As for the rest, it's a bit much for minds like mine to try to fathom....and I have a Masters from MIT.

Take Care, and a word of advice....just stay away from that house, don't knock, don't ring the bell, and you might just live forever.

Sappho

KungFuChris

How about though, if Free Will is simply an illusion in our own minds.

For instance, let us take time travel - one of the great paradoxes.

I am going to make the assumption that time travel is impossible, as any changes that are made to the past are reflected into the present, and therefore were already done before you ever decided to go back in time.

Now, extending this to the future, which is in effect simply the past for somone further in the future, then you can assume that the future can also not be changed.

So, if the future cannot be changed any more than the past, the two being the same at different points in time, then we have no Free Will, as what is about to happen, will happen.

Free Will could then only be an illusion of our own mind, which cannot 'remember' the future, but instead is only apparently of before and present and believes itself to be making choices that will alter the future, however only alter your perception of what may be the future.

I hope that makes a reasonable amount of sense. Smile

madsencarl

Marston

UnderClassman

I am glad you agree. I don't expect many people to understand in depth what it is that we are talking about, much less for them to agree with what I am saying.

Most of you have a general knowledge of this concept and it is amazing to me to see how much thought people of this world, this reality, have put into the idea. It truly is astounding.

Vrythramx
You perceive free will as a myth. You say it is something like a veil of lies placed over our eyes to shroud us from the truth? I can see how you are right, but not the same way you think you are right. (But then again, being right is subjective). We are doing something some one else wants us to, yes. But we choose to do it. That person isn't making us do it, we choose to do it. If we wanted to, we could just say no. We could turn off the TV, or change the channel.

As for the issue about destiny, there really is no such thing as ONE destiny. Every possible reality has a destiny for you. If all realities are set forth when you are born, you have all destinies. It is just a matter of what reality you fall into. You can change the reality by making a different choice.

But I think you are right about the house, just stay away. Smile

Sappho
Your argument is that there are an infinite number of decimals between the integers of 0 and 1. When I used the number analogy, it wasn’t supposed to be taken literally. Unlike numbers in your mind, people have only a limited number of options they can choose from. When you answer a true or false question, there are only three options you have to do rationally; T, F, or leave it blank. By default it is blank. When you take the irrational options into consideration, the numbers of choices you can make are far greater. But they are not infinite. It only looks infinite to some because they cannot or will not look from a farther distance.

As for the realities at birth question, I believe I touched on that a little earlier. Once you have figured out how many decisions you can make and all their outcomes, then you will need to figure in other peoples' decisions. Each of your realities must be played with each of his realities until all have been calculated. If you want to keep going, be my guest.

KungFuChris
Your assumption of time travel being impossible is incorrect. Traveling back in time may not be possible, but you are still traveling forward through time as we speak. Time travel is happening right now and therefore can't be impossible.

But I know what you meant and so I will elaborate on this topic. You, I have to say, are the most difficult person to answer. This issue that you pose to me has been on my mind for quite some time now (no pun intended).

Trying not to get away from the real subject, let’s revisit this:

When you go back to change the past, it isn't the past anymore; it is the present. Think of a time line. It has three dates on it. 1, 2, and 3. These dates mark the new year, my birthday, and Christmas respectively. Let’s say that I am your father. You go back to date 2 and kill my mother, your grandmother. I am never born, and, in turn, you are never born. That is how you see it, but look again. When you kill my mom, you are still existing in that time period (though most TV shows or movies will suggest that you vanish as if you were never born). You haven't gone back in time, but it may appear so. Instead, time has copied itself.

To better understand this, imagine that each letter of the alphabet is a year. A is the first year of our time line. The dates 1,2, and 3 are the same.

A1--A2--A3--B1--B2--B3--Y1--Y2--Y3--you go back to kill her--A1--A2--A3--...
You still exist through the years A-Y. You do not, however, get born in let's say ZZZ4. You exist as the age you are.

nimbuscogitare

free will - freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention.

but if not determined by prior causes or divine intervention what does determine your choices. When I decide something I theorise what the outcome of each action I may take will be based on my emotions, past experiences, present perception, and related knowledge. based on this concept I beleive that I would likely make the same choice were I to do it over with only the exact same resources. how would I do otherwise excepting by divine intervention.
-emotions and instincts are like a great racial knowledge. The come to you even before you are born and are then further molded by the world we live in. experiences, food, light, drugs, a seemingly infinite number of things alter the way we feel conciously and subconsiously.
-the rest of our knowledge and perception is, as far as I can tell, gained purly through experience.

with all that said I still believe in free will's existance, though my understanding of it seems to be different from most's. my reasons are hard to explain in the context of a forum. I believe in free will, divinity, magic, and multiple realities. it is with these tools that I explain my existance and the existance of my worlds. It leaves me always to wonder though.... is your world the same as mine or are we shadows passing through the realms?

-take it all in before you tear it all down

Ray Gravin

ok this is making my head spin a bit : )

math has never been a strong subject for me. Wich bothers me becouse its such a universal language and I speak it so poorly.

Anyway alternet realities huh that is a tough subject to tackle isnt it!

Id like to believe that there is a "God", atleast someone would be able to make sense of existance then huh. What always gets me though when questioning the existance of god is grasping the very concept of god. As a species we barely understand our own surroundings here on earth let alone the fathoms of the universe. We have some pretty good theories and such but there is always so much more to know. To understand God seems so impossible to me, So im not even going to bother with that one untile God shows some intrest in making me understand or recongnize its existance.

Free will? .... Freedom?... you could start an entirely new thread just for that one : ) Its completly subjective in my opinion. I think one mans freedom is another mans slavery. Some think freedom is found in capitalism. I say capitalism is slavery and robs us of our freedom. It all depends on the individual.

I like to take life as a 50/50 chance, There is no what if, or could have been. Just a yes or no answer for everything. I do believe in past actions effecting the future, like karma and such.

Weather or not you knock on the door or ring the door bell is effected by many things. Every little detail and decision that you make and others make leading up to that moment, the way that the natural forces around you happen to be acting at that moment, your past experiences among a plethora of details that are constintly in motion affect your decision. Like energy in constant motion, the possibilities are endless.

The existance of an alternet reality will only exist in your own mind in that split second that your making those decisions. Even then theyre existance is only there existance as a concept or notion to do one thing or another. Sort of like fiction only exist in that its fiction. Yeah Harry Potter for instance was never a fleash and blood boy, but he exist as a fictional character and therefore he exist. Like I said it either happens or it doesnt. I dont see how a seamingly endless array of alternate realities could exist in a tangable way. Its a fun concept but although not as obvious as a zombie movie, its a very flawed and circular conept. Never the less great fun to consider.

Ok I really dont know what im talking about honestly : ) ... but thats the only sense I can make of the whole thing.

helk

I think (no pun intended) thought is a by-product of awareness. Science has yet to prove to me we are actually doing anything by thinking - i believe we just think we think. It's still all linear as far as i know. So as for free will...
What we don't know can't hurt us.

Alternate reality is interesting, but philosophy hasn't even proved reality exists without doubt. There are logic problems in everything.

And i can't see any reason behind god, i see only excuses for the existence.
And i think religion is all co-incidence interpreted one way instead of another.

From what i've heard and read, all energy is a state of probability.
Sort of schroedingers cat style. But if you bring that up... Alternate realities are the least of the questions.. Very Happy

tidruG

I have not much much background reading about Free Will before posting, but I am going to post my opinions on some posts here.

Code of Ruin

Their are strong hints in the direction of an alternate reality, more if you like. Philosophy has come up with some interesting thoughts on this subject but hasn't proven anything. Philosophy is not meant to prove that anyway. One of the most interesting theories is that of the superstrings. I can't explain it since I don't understand it myself but take a look at it. Free will is also quite a debate on it's own. I do believe we have free will since we have the ability to make decisions. We debate with ourselves as to what would be the best solution.
I am interesting as to how everyone else thinks of this

Ray Gravin

tidrug wrote:

Sappho

nimbuscogitare

Stubru Freak

Ok that's all right, but what's your point? If you define an "alternate reality" as "something that also could have happened", then of course there are alternate realities. Of course the whole world depends on people's decisions.

Scimus

Well, finally, my kinda topic.
Firstly, alternate realities are existant - like tidrug said, it is the action that defines its outcome.

My opinion as a person who believes in a different type of god, is that,
God is our creation.....we created him as a reliable excuse for what we cannot explain. Alternate realities are not decided by god, and are indeed scientifically known as parallels. The outcome of one action, as many as possible, can boil down to one.

My opinion is that, there are two things that determine an outcome,
1) the amount of confidence, you and your environment has in a particular outcome.( Scientifically known as Placebo).
2)What you are destined to do.
Its quite simple, if you can't decide, or you don't , the default option takes over. If you strongly believe in a particular outcome - but even a part of you believes in the other outcome, then whatever you were meant to do, will be the ultimate outcome.

The ultimate point that i want to make is that, Placebo is the reason things happen, and fate(my definition) is why they happen in a way you don't want them to.

Mrs Lycos

Well, what if, regardless of what we think could or would have happened if we did this or that, there is always the same result? Take the first example of the man running and getting hit by the Hummer. Maybe he got into the house, and got killed by the man, or maybe he was only cooking and all is fine, and he offers him something to eat and he choke to death, or let's say he runs away, he's not hit by the car, but he stumbles and hits his head and dies all the same. Maybe our free will lays in small things, like the color of the shirt I'll use today, or it may change the way we die, but in the end maybe if you are meant to die today, you will, no matter what you choose to do.

lockwolf

I dont think alternate reality doesnt exist, its way too impossible to prove. Also, if there was alternate reality, wouldnt it be a simular alternate reality such as in the moive "The One"?

Also, you have to look at this from a religious prespective. In the bible, I forgot what verse it was but it says "For I know the plans I have for you...". Everything is going to fall into what has been predestine by his plans and it wont change no matter how hard you try to change it, thus ruleing out Alternate Reality.

summer-sensation

blunty666

i totlly agree with you dude if its not fate then what is it everything happens for a reason i say if things happened the slightest bit diffrently in your past then imagine how things would be today maybe we will never know maybe we will just a matter of time but heres a question if we could see our future and it was a good one would it still pan out exactly how you saw it knowing what you know? its always bothered me also how far does space go cus its pretty mind boggling that it goes on forever theres gtta be somthing like a big wall or pop up blocker lmao!!

Stubru Freak

42mart2

Would be cool if someone lived in another dimention....Being in another universe than us, but still doing things as we do....

Ikonoklast

Question: Would a safe definition of a "free-will" action be an action that was not a response to outside stimuli?

cows, do cows have free will?

srdjan

Well, people, isn't this something everyone thinks about at least once in their lifetime?
The difference is, some take it as it is, that is, simply: "oh well, stuff happens, and sh*t happens.." and the others stop and think and think and think some more, until at some point, a great majority of them reach the same conclusion. And the conclusion is that we are all too busy with ourselves and our lives, our family and our own survival, that we simply can not afford to waste any more time thinking of what is and what might have been.
I totally agree that we are free to do and act in any way we want, but at the end of the day we do what we think is in our best interest (that's right, humans are selfish, jealous, and all those other things the Bible is teaching us not to be) I ain't religious, or anything, but I think there are many good things to learn from the Book.
And those other things, like what it means to be free, and most of us don't know what free really means, can be learned from ancient religions and traditions;because all of this, what is being discussed here, has been known and familiar to human race for thousands of years...are we inventing hot water here, or a hole on a flower pot Smile

? i think it's pointless!
For some healthy leisure time i suggest reading Don Miguel Ruis, and his teachings on the ancient Toltec culture and tradition, since this will teach you what it means to truly be free. Don't be affraid, and don't judge b4 you read at least a page or two, this isn't some kind of a weird ocult teaching, but the philosophy of one of the oldest nations on earth...also probabaly one of the wisest too! And the whole philosophy is: learn to love, and learn not to judge the others around you. No one has the right to do that, and we are all equal in this universe. If everyone had been at least half this way, the world would have been a milion times better place by now..

just my reflection on the topic...

UnderClassman

Wow.

*blink, blink*

I never expected this many people to reply in such a short amount of time. There are a few of you that have one thing in common that I see.

Most of what you few talk about is commonly known as luck. This word has been mentioned before by tidruG, and I just want to elaborate a little on it.

There is no such thing as luck as you think you know it. No, luck is just a name given to a very scientifical and mathematical equation. Luck is the factors of the equation. The broom example is nice.
When a person says it’s lucky that you choose the clean one, they say it blindly. The air current effects your respiratory system, which causes your blood to flow slower due to your asthma. This causes a numb feeling, slight but still existing, in your right arm. The moon's distance to the earth is at its prime and causes a slight shift in the blood of your head which causes your nerve ending to sustain a plight of paralization. This nerve controls part of your right hand.
In light of all these events, one thing is constant; The exact location that you are reaching for the broom. This is vital in the choice of which broom you take.

Everything in red are factors in the equation, but they are not the only ones. I can't list every factor in this problem, but there are a lot more. Body mass, emotional state of mind, physical anatomy, and above all, your subconscious. All these are factors in the equation of luck.

So luck is not something left to chance. That very word isn't correct, as you have been raised to know it. Everything has a precise cause.

*Now if you were really paying attention to everything that has been written, you will see that most of what this is, is cause and effect.*

I would like to take this opportunity to thank every one who has participated in this thread. It's not the every day material you hear about. You wouldn't go to a high school and hear this, nor would you go to work and hear this. It's seldom talked about, but here we are.

Was it your choice that you are reading this? Or was it predestined by some higher power? If it were predestined, that would suggest that we have no free will. We are condemned to our fate and we can't change that. No, we may not be able to see the future or go back in time, but I do believe that we hold the power to change our fate, however many and whatever it may be.

Philosophy doesn't prove anything but the fact that human kind is curious... and smart.

I am starting a new thread soon. But feel free to debate on this subject. I will check back on it. I really enjoy reading what you all write. It is helping me out tremendously.

- UnderClassman

lockwolf

nopaniers

Okay. First off, I should say I'm a physicist and a Christian. I'm not going to tell you what to think, but I will describe some interesting things you might like to consider. This is my own interpretations, so don't take it as gospel.

The universe seems to be inherently random

Quantum physics (which describes atoms and molecules, and therefore all the matter we come across in our everyday lives) has randomness built into it. For example, it is impossible to measure both the position and momentum of a particle. If you measure position precisely, and then try to make a measurement of momentum, the momentum will always take on a random value. We say that there is uncertainty in the momentum of a particle.

This is just one example. There are many others. Measuring the spin (that is, the property of nuclei and electrons which acts just like a tiny magnet) in the up/down direction, followed by a measurement in the left/right direction means that the second measurement will be random. Polarisation of light is another example. So are charge and flux in superconducting circuits. Another example is energy and time. The name we give to this rule is the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle.

The physics of the universe seems to be inherently random. That's good for all you people who like free will... because without any randomness in physics it would be impossible to have free will. You would just be a big machine whose actions were set from the day you were born.

Note however, that the only place that this randomness comes in is when a measurement is made. If you don't measure something, then it continues to evolve in a completely deterministic, smooth, way. There's no randomness there at all.

So how does a system know when it's measured? A measurement is just another physical operation, which according to quantum mechanics should just evolve smoothly and not randomly, just like everything else. Where is the cut between smooth and random?

The many-worlds interpretation

I'm going to describe an interpretation of quantum mechanics which is not standard at all, but which is interesting if you're thinking about free will.

The "many worlds" interpretation of quantum mechanics says that there are alternate universes. In the story at the beginning of this thread, every different decision which could be made, was made. So, the guy in the story is both alive and dead at the same time. Every different possible thing which CAN happen (and note that doesn't include physically impossible things: for example you cannot violate the conservation of energy, or momentum) DOES happen.

All of the evolution in the "many worlds" interpretation is completely deterministic, and is exactly the same as the smooth way that everything evolves under quantum mechanics. Now in any given world, measurement results APPEAR to someone in that world to be random... but in reality the whole evolution is deterministic, but we just don't see the other worlds.

IMHO, This is a scary thought for those of us who like the idea of free will. If the universe is deterministic, then there's no room for free will.

tidruG

UnderClassman

In a single alternate reality, you are given Free Will. You are free to choose what you want to do, when you want to do it. The allusion of Free Will is among us. But step back from the canvas a moment and behold what is being painted.

There is not only one-way to live your life. No, there are many ways in which you can live your life. The life you are living right now is the life you choose. In all of the realities that are possible, one persists to you. This is your life.

Think of reality as a train track, and you are the train. Now imagine that there is a switch in the track and you want to change course. So you do. You are now on a different track.

The track you are now on is a possibility of your life. It is the one that is happening right now. But that doesn't mean that the other tracks cease to exist. They are still there, just untouched.

All the possible realities are known, or can be known. You decide which track to be on. But the question may be aroused in the future so I will answer it before it is stated.

Q: Where did the tracks come from?
A: The tracks were built by you.

You have already made the decision that you will live. It is no longer about what decision you make. Now it is about why you made that decision.

Steb2424

the way i see it every single decision you make affects your future. IMO, there is an almost infinite number of possible futures and every choice made narrows down this number until there is only one, and that future is only singular when you cannot choose anymore, the instant when you die.

Kashinilaya

It's difficult to talk about free will without entering the realms of religions. As far as I know, "free will" was an expression created to explain the theory of karma. Many religions won`t accept such a concept.
Basically, free will means that we are responsible for our own actions. Even though most religions today may accept the responsibility part of the previous sentence, no two religions will come to the same conclusion on what means to take responsibility for one`s own action. Some even state that some actions may be forgiveable by some sort of prayer or by a religious leader (which means that there's no need to take responsibilities at all).
The original post seemed to use the expression free will as a simple sinonym for choice and alternate reality as a sinonym for result of action. I see no harm in his exposition, as far as the purpose of this forum is concerned. If we allow ourselves to be too picky at the statments in someonelse`s posts, we will be focusing only in the flaws and loosing some (or all) the beauty that may be hidden in the text.
Before I add a personal comment on the topic, let me remmind you of a quote from a wise sage of our present time, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi: knowledge is different in different states of consciousness. This means that one truth doesn`t necessarily invalidates another, even when apparently opposed to it.
I see free will as our right to choose and and duty to take responsibility for our own actions. I don`t know if there are paralel universes in which we live alternate realities created by the other possibilities of choice, but it doesn`t seem to be necessary to experience all the possibilities from all the choices for us to evolve as a soul.

wingo

I believe in a higher power because of the sheer infinity of the multiverse. Let me explain. Our universe is finite... however there are more universes, because things don't end, they just fade away. The ability to picture any instance in time as infinitely small proves that.
Okay so what does the existence of an infinite multiverse mean? It means that there must be a world like ours with... humans with antlers, or something like that. Or a world with the same history as ours, a second in the past. While we could probably never reach these places (unless we could enter different dimensions), they nevertheless exist. What could be responsible for the existence of something as irrational as that? Science? Or perhaps a higher power?

ocalhoun

I agree with that, but I don't buy the time difference thories. If you repeat the experiment of shining lasers through slots, you do not continue to see results after you turn off the laser, nor do you see effects before you turn on the laser.

Ragnarok

One theory says that outside of our own universe there are an infinite number of parallel universes one for every possibility. So, in these parallel universes, every choice you have ever made or decided not to make or never even thought of is played out in a different scenario in each universe.

Thinking like this has took me places in my mind i never thought possible.

If this where true where did free choice go? (sit back and enjoy the ride as somewhere you'll get it right) Razz

atin

it seems to me that discussing the existence of God is a waste of time.

There are people who believe - and people who don't.

no amount of atheist ranting or religious preaching will change the reality of whether God exixts or not.

so let's just save some time and worry about something else. We will find out for sure when we die.

nopaniers

Thankyou for your interest tidruG, and you made some good comments.

DarthSilus

Personally, I understand the logic behind the "need" for alternate realities, but I remind you all the consequences of an infinite universe.

In this type of universe--or "dynaverse"--there are an infinite many copies of you. You don't matter, because everything that has a chance of happening will happen. Nothing matters.

One could say that free will is simply not knowing your fate. I don't like that though.

1) I don't beleive in "time." --There's no need for it, nor any proof.
2) I don't beleive the future is written, nor does it matter if a God who lives in all times know's what "going" to happen, because He's already there--not prescient.

UnderClassman

This is definitely evolving into a big scientifical debate. It's pure madness trying to sort out through what is, and what isn't logic or myth.

Are we to believe that the universe has laws known to us, but are incorrect? How is it that we have gotten this far? If the information we are working with is not to an exact point, how can we be sure that what we are talking about is even close to what is really going on?

If you round 3.14159269 to the commonly known 3.14, you will loose the precise calculation (but we do know that Pi goes on and on. It is only logical for us to round). So the circle isn't 24 inches in perimeter, does it really matter to us?

But how does the alternate realities play into all of this? Are we really supposed to find out what is causing the world to exist? That whole question implies that there is a reason set forth by some one else for us to figure it out.

Since this is getting a little more religious than I had expected, I will go with the flow. If alternate realities exist, there are things that will be in such a reality, and things that will not be. Does God exist in one reality, but not in another?

So how do we begin to calculate what is true and what is not? Who determines the laws of physics? Who says that we cannot create energy? What defines our existence? Is that your opinion?

In a different reality, do you think you would have a different opinion? So does that mean that there are different laws to physics? Does that mean that no one thing is true?

tkcy

well.....do u guys believe in fate? Or rather....everything that happens, happens for a reason? I personally think that everything that happens in our life has a reason for happening. I believe that everybody is born with a purpose, or rather, everyone's destiny is already preplanned by God.

Yes, u might say that we hold the right to make decisions but ultimately, no matter which path we take, what decisions we make, all these will still lead to the ultimate puspose or destiny. Just like 2 coordinates in a map, from point A to point B, there are so many ways to reach point B from point A. Some might be longer, some might be shorter, but eventually u have to reach point B.

So, we might as well chill and relax and enjoy life to the max. Cos there is really no point worrying, just enjoy every minute of your life people. Cos u never know what's gonna happen next. N remember, what might seem bad now, might turn out to be something good, its might be a blessing in disguise. So be positive people. Cheers! Wink

benwhite

holycross

Freewill was lost when man fell into sin... we only have the will to please urselves and not God.

Sappho · Last edited by Sappho on Fri Jan 20, 2006 5:12 pm; edited 1 time in total

tidruG

nopaniers

nopaniers

You asked some good questions. I've had a bit of a think about them, and here are my (biased) opinions:

[quote="UnderClassman"]Are we to believe that the universe has laws known to us, but are incorrect? How is it that we have gotten this far? If the information we are working with is not to an exact point, how can we be sure that what we are talking about is even close to what is really going on?</quote>

Undoubedly the laws we are working with at the moment are not correct. For example, it is impossible to combine gravity and quantum mechanics. It's ignorant to pretend we know everything... but the laws of physics are the best knowledge/model we have about how the universe works.

Lennon

In the Beginning,

There was nothing.
Then the Spaghetti Monster said;
Let there Be light

And the Spaghetti Monster saw that It was good.

Check out the websites below:

http://www.venganza.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

Basically, the spaghetti monster created the world, and he is the God of the Pirates. It can be shown that since the decline of pirates in the world today there have been a significant increase in Natural Disasters. Essentially, the end of the world is nigh, and we must all convert to the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster before it's too late. Check out the venganza church website and become an official member. This is not just an alternative reality, it is really happening, the Spaghetti Monster is very upset and we should all become pirates and we should worship his divine meatball image.

Basically you see my point, I believe in a Spaghetti Monster (not really), and my creation story holds as much evidence as the Bible Genesis. This Religion has been recognised by the US Government and has been growing steadily over the months and years.

Do you believe?

seekerseyes

Hi

I think we just part a reality when we are awake, but when we fall in sleep, we face our own world inside. The Upanishad says, that in our heart are the worlds of the whole creation - in small. So I think, that in this inner worlds is our true stand, our root to find, not outside. The outside for me is nothing more than a mirror of our inner position. Yes, there are as many realities, as souls are living, swimming in a pool of light. And.... God is my light.

Peace
Seekerseyes

UnderClassman

You know what? I actually had a class that talked about the Upanishads and the religion it explains. I was seriously considering converting to be a Buddhist. Very Happy

There are parts of the religion I disagree with, so I decided not to. It is no surprise, then, to know that I am not particular to any one religion.

But the thing that captured my interest from Buddhism was the "Atman" experience. Something, like when you fall asleep, you get closer to the one, and the one is you. It's basically like we are all Gods. And really, what is the measure of God? The fact that He can heal people? Doctors can do that. That He can create humans? We can do that too.

No, the measure of God isn't His power; it's how He uses it. With that reasoning, we can say that we are gods. But do not see us as gods, for that would be arrogant and therefore contradicting our plight as gods.

The enlightened one is he who knows, but has no desire.

It is your choice to believe what you want. But just remember, in a different reality, you choice the opposite.

Ressurrector

I belive in alternate realities and the future is not set in stone we make what we make of it.

PADRE[P.S.]

JonesThe42nd

I woke up late this morning, and missed two of my classes. Is this an example of free will determining the outcome of events? Who ultimately controls when I wake up? You could say, but Ben, why didn't you set an alarm clock? In an exercize in what I percieve to be free will, I determined that I could wake up when I needed to without outside influence.
That didn't do it.

I believe in free will, entirely. No one else can take responsibility for the stupidity of some humans. What I don't understand is where the concept of Free Will ties in to an alternate reality theory. The converse seems more likely to me: If you don't have free will, then everything you do is predestined. If everything you do is predestined, isn't it easier to have a reality pre-designated for every person, every "choice"? I like to think of it like this:
There are a trillion universes. A trillion trillion. One for every choice every person would ever have to make. When you make a decision, you are in the reality where you made that decision, but the other options are still out there, somewhere.
(Of course, then I get into my discussion about how history is elastic, all major events will happen regardless of personal choices, and then, invariably, all of the trillions upon trillions of realities will end the same way.)

powwow

There are a lot of different topics here, so I want to start with the first and comment on that.

I do not perceive "other" realities as "alternate". I perceive them as simultaneous. On a very basic scale, you could liken it to a radio. All the stations are playing simultaneously, but you "tune in" to only one at a time.

I once read that "anything that can be imagined, is possible". The reasoning for that belief might be that one could never "think it" if "it" wasn't there to begin with.

On Free Will: I do not relate the existence of alternate realities to the existence of free will. I do subscribe to Free Will. Sometimes you can't do something, such as jump off a building and fly. So does this mean you do not have free will, or does it mean you haven't yet learned how to fly?

Humans have Free Will, but the rulers, controllers of this world have been programing us for centuries to believe we do not. They use many ways to control our "free will". They program us to believe certain things, such as religion. They try to dictate our moral judgements. Add they keep "duality"
in motion.

They do not want us to know we are all sovreign beings, and that we are ONE. They do this by dividing and conquering. They have the Christans fighting the Muslims. The Jews fighting the Palestinians. The Whites fighting Blacks. The Democrats fighting Republicans. .. and so on and so on. If you want to keep people in chaos, you keep creating "sides". It doesn't much matter what side you are on, just as long as you are one "side" fighting another "side".

Maybe it seems like I am rambling, but to me this is all related. Yes, there is more than one reality. Yes there are infinite potentials. What these potentials are, is entirely up to us (Free Will) and our beliefs. But our beliefs are so often not our own. We think they are, when they've actually been instilled in us for unspoken self-serving agendas.

UnderClassman

Is it your choice to wake up at a later time? Only you can answer that. And I don't think you would get the right answer for the right reason. There is a place in your brain caled a subconscious. It knows what is good for you. It is the part of the brain that does the most unrecognized work.

Have you ever said something to some one, and another person says the exact same word? You know there are a few different ways to communicate what you are trying to say, but that person had to say the exact same word as you. It may be coincidence, it may be because that person likes the word, but what I think it really is, is that person's subconscious.

So as I was saying, your subconscious controls most of what you do when you’re asleep. Is your subconscious you? It is a part of you. And for this purpose, yes, it is you. So you are controlling when you wake up, and when you don't. Just like it is you who decides to answer a question, or take no part in it.

And who are they? The government? Is that who is controlling us? I don't see it that way. Nobody controls you but you. But don't get that confused with influence. I think that is why so many of you think Free Will doesn't exist and that they control us. They don't control us, we control us. They just have an influence on our decisions. But if you really wanted to, could you get into an airplane and crash into thousands of innocent people while they are at work? YES!! It’s been done. Who controlled them? Not me, not you, hopefully. It wasn't God, Atman, Allah, or any others. The plain truth is it was them. They were the vessels that were perhaps influenced by a group. It is no different than peer pressure.

Here, take this and put it in your mouth.
Na, I'll pass.
Come on, every one does it, and plus, if you don't, you can't hang with us.
Yea, do it. I'll go out with you.
Well,,,,,, alright.

Of course, he could have just said no, and walked away... But then he wouldn't have enjoyed the Lollypop.

Ok, so truthfully, how many of you thought I was referring to a drug of some sort? It is your choice to think that. It is an automatic response to a situation. This is a deep case of influence. It is preprogrammed into your head so that when you hear something like this, you automatically assume it is drugs. But if you had never heard of drugs, or knew what they were, what would you have thought?

So here are some interesting questions. Are the realities that exist existent only when we think them? Does our subconscious have a say in what reality we chose? Do you think you and your subconscious would get into an argument? Why? Wouldn't that be like beating yourself up? But don't you do it all the time?

If we think one thing, and do another in 5 realities, are the other 5 realities different because we think another thing and do the same?

By the way, the radio analogy was like my train analogy, and I like them both. The radio stations will always be there just as the tracks will too. You can change the path at anytime. It's never too late until you decide it is.

Sappho

powwow

Hi UnderClassman,
I very much appreciate everything you're saying and the issues you're bringing up. My first posting left a lot out. That was because, to me, this is a very big and broad topic. I didn't purposely omit anything. But as I was thinking back to what I had written, I realized I had skipped over a lot.

I believe that creation starts with 'thought'. Perhaps most, if not all, thought begins subconsciously (I don't know). But what I do believe, is that our thoughts are ruled by our beliefs, and that it is our beliefs that are tampered with.

Some of the ways I expressed myself could come across as quite paranoid, especially using the terms "them" or "they". So is "they" the government? No, not particularly.

The subconscious is sometimes referred to as the reptillian brain ... the primitive reactions we have. I read an article recently that was explaining it like this: You can be watching a movie and CONSCIOUSLY know it's not true, but if you're frightened, your heart will race, you get nervous, etc. Those physical responses are controlled by the subconscious. The subconscious takes everything at face value, even when our conscious does not.

So sometimes, the root of our beliefs stems from the non-logical subconscious. But when one begins to re-evaluate their belief system, there are layers and layers to peel away first before you can even know what YOU believe.

As you (I'm using "you" in the general sense) dispense with the conditionings that have 'influenced' you and you re-visit any belief from an objective point of view, many 'ahas' emerge. And when that happens, you can see how "they" (society?) has discouraged us from seeing and thinking for ourselves.

And how does this tie in with alternate realities and free will? If you stop thinking and stop seeing, then you have only the illusion of Free Will-- plus you're left with only one reality, and that is the cookie cutter reality that every "sane" person is expected to agree with.

Dustin

Physics defines alternite realities (or alternate dimentions in physics terms) very differently. From what i understood from the video everything is made up of tiny strings of energy. These strings can be big and small, anywase none of these strings can move faster than the speed of light, because they are made of light. So theoreically if you were able to put enough power into them and make them travel FASTER than the speed of light then techincally it should make a new dimention, however it hasnt happened yet.

cwatts

This forum about God is really interesting I felt inspired to tell people what I believe about God and the reasons that the largest reli