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The Religion of Peace





S3nd K3ys
This is so comforting...

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=\Culture\archive\200601\CUL20060113c.html


CNSNews wrote:


Muslim Cleric Says Killing Unbelievers Is 'Okay'
By Mark Mayne
CNSNews.com Correspondent
January 13, 2006

London (CNSNews.com) - The prosecution in the U.K. trial of Muslim cleric Abu Hamza al-Masri said Friday he preached that killing non-Muslims was justified, even if there was no reason for it.

"Killing an adulterer, even if he is a Muslim is okay. Killing a Kaffir (infidel) who is fighting you is okay. Killing a Kaffir for any reason you can say it is okay even if there is no reason for it," the jury heard Hamza say in a video of his September 1999 sermon, entitled "Adherence to Islam in the Western World."
SunburnedCactus
And that's why he's going to jail (I hope).
S3nd K3ys


Shocked
SunburnedCactus
Aaahh! A zombie! Laughing
Soulfire
Such a peaceful people the Islamics are. What is so wrong here?
lib
I am expecting (hoping?) him to be given a suitable sentence. please keep up posted about this.

Anyway, I see that you are still generalizing Islam by posting about a few crackheads...

Quote:
A Tbilisi court on 31 January sentenced an excommunicated Orthodox priest to six years in jail on charges of inciting violence against Georgia's religious minorities. Basil Mkalavishvili was convicted of organizing assaults on Jehovah's Witnesses, Baptists, and Pentecostal Evangelists in the late 1990s and early 2000s. The New York-based group Human Rights Watch welcomed the sentence. Western and Georgian rights activists had long been demanding jail terms for Mkalavishvili and other Orthodox hard-liners responsible for religious violence.

source

You were talking about a Religion of "Peace"
SunburnedCactus
I find extremism depressing at best. And at worst, frankly unmentionable.
gonzo
lib wrote:
generalizing Islam by posting about a few crackheads


a few? You're sorry. Did you forget about the REPEATED world conquest attempts?
animefanlee
islam a religion of peace lol sure
iran islamic gov is gonna hang a 17 year old girl what was RAPed
sunrise
Christian cleric says assasinating Hugo Chavez is okay.

Christian cleric says Ariel Sharon's situation is due to God's punishment.

How peaceful. Rolling Eyes
gonzo
And how many times did Christ's true church slaughter millions in a world domination attempt? oh, yeah, zero.
nopaniers
gonzo wrote:
lib wrote:
generalizing Islam by posting about a few crackheads


a few? You're sorry. Did you forget about the REPEATED world conquest attempts?



Isn't it a little hypocritical for someone who I'm assuming is of European descent to critisize Islam for attempting to conquer the world? The European powers did it for profit, killing millions from the Aztecs and Incas all the way across the world to the opium wars in China.

Some people try to paint Islam as if Bin Laden is your average sort of a muslim. It's not true, and thankfully so. There are over a billion muslims in the world, and the vast majority are ordinary people just like you and me.
S3nd K3ys
animefanlee wrote:
islam a religion of peace lol sure
iran islamic gov is gonna hang a 17 year old girl what was RAPed


And DX-Blog will probably say it's the right thing to do... Wink
S3nd K3ys
nopaniers wrote:
gonzo wrote:
lib wrote:
generalizing Islam by posting about a few crackheads


a few? You're sorry. Did you forget about the REPEATED world conquest attempts?



Isn't it a little hypocritical for someone who I'm assuming is of European descent to critisize Islam for attempting to conquer the world? The European powers did it for profit, killing millions from the Aztecs and Incas all the way across the world to the opium wars in China.

Some people try to paint Islam as if Bin Laden is your average sort of a muslim. It's not true, and thankfully so. There are over a billion muslims in the world, and the vast majority are ordinary people just like you and me.


Welcome to the civilized world. As nations grow, and man matures, they grow out of it. Well, some do.
LeviticusMky
Grow out of it. Is that the best you can come up with?

Christianity and Islam are the same thing. They are both religions of intolerance. The only difference is in who is running them.

There are just as many Christian extremists as there are Musilm ones. Also, there are just as many compassionate Muslims as there are Christian ones.
S3nd K3ys
LeviticusMky wrote:

Christianity and Islam are the same thing. They are both religions of intolerance. The only difference is in who is running them.


Not true. You need a refresher course in the history of Islam. Here is a snippit of an article I'm writing.

S3nd K3ys wrote:
The history of "Jihad" dates back over 1372 years, to about 634, when the Muslims attacked the Christian kindom of Byzantine. The Muslims converted the local Christians to Islam at the point of a sword. The Christians did not attack Arabia, nor the Muslims. So why were they attacked?

They were attacked because they refused "Dawat-ul-Islam" (an Invitation to embrace Islam), from the false prohpet Mohammed-ibn-Aldallah. This "Invitation" was, in reality, an ultimatum to accept one of three choices:
1) Embrace Islam.
2) Surrender to the Muslim Army and pay Jaziya (protection money).
3) Prepare for war.

After attacking Byzantine, the Muslims then proceded to launch unprovoked attacks on Christian Egypt in 640, on Christian Nubia in 650, on Christian North Africa in 650, on Christian Spain in 711, on Christian France (under Frankish rule) in 732, on Christian Sicily in 812, on Christian Byzantine again in 1071 to 1453, on Christian Bulgaria, Serbia, Greece, Croatia, Albania, Hungary Austria, Poland Russia in the period between 1389 to 1683.

These Christian nations were attacked for no other reason than the widely accepted view by Muslims to attack all non-Muslims and force them to convert to Islam.


By all means feel free to debate the topics discussed, (instead of the usual insults followed by the "dismiss everything without saying why" attitude).
Soulfire
LeviticusMky wrote:
Grow out of it. Is that the best you can come up with?

Christianity and Islam are the same thing. They are both religions of intolerance. The only difference is in who is running them.

There are just as many Christian extremists as there are Musilm ones. Also, there are just as many compassionate Muslims as there are Christian ones.


How many times do you hear about Christian terrorists flying airplanes into buildings? Not nearly as much as the parade of terrorism that keeps marching out of Islamic nations.

I am not saying all Islam is bad, I am saying that too much of it is.
nik
lol the really sad part is thay they really think that's it's ok and that's the way it shuld be...
nopaniers
Maybe you will put it in the historical context of Christian attacks in 1095-1099 when they massacred the population of Jerusalem. Or the unsuccessful crusade of 1101? Or the crusade in 1147-1149 when they tried to attack Damascus? Or the crusade from 1187-1197? Or from 1202-1204 when they massacred Byzantinium? Or the Children's Crusade of 1212 which was a disaster, and ended with the children being massacred or sold into slavery. Or the attacks on Egypt from 1215-1219? Or more attacks in 1228, 1243, 1248-1254, 1270, 1271-1291.

Of course, crusades weren't only against Muslims, but also against people in the Baltic states and Eastern Europe. These lasted up until the 16th century... when "Christian" Europe was busy attacking the rest of the world, literally.

I hope your article includes countries, like Indonesia where Islam spread peacefully, brought by traders from India. I hope it includes the fact that Islam brought with it learning, medicine, mathematics, poetry, hospitals, ancient Greek and Roman texts, astronomy, schools and libraries. I hope it points out that Europe were in the dark ages with all sorts of horrible barbarism, and torture. Or that Islamic societies were more tolerant of other religions (such as Jews for example) than Christians were.
Devil
I AM from india , and in india terrorists kill people on daily basis , 1000s of women and children have been killed, this terrorists come from pakistan and are trained there in the madrassas , they are told it is jehad ,

but india has never blamed muslims for this , i said it before , that terrorist have no religion what so ever ,

i also understand , that not all muslims are terrorists , but u have to see that all terrorists are muslims ,

Everywhere in the world today , there is islamic terrorism , look at russia in chechniya , or kashmir in india , indonesia , usa , europe , every where there is muslim terrorists ,

and they all have links to Pakistan , they are trained in pakistan , and are funded by other muslim countries ,

but lets see how many countries have taken action against pakistan ?

USA considers pakistan has its freind , Same can be said about china ,europe , and canada . no other country other then india has objected over pakistan's help to the terrorists ,

remember when india airlines flight was hijacked ? it was taken to afghanistan , did the usa or any other country support india ?

instead pakistan said if india attacks afghanistan , it has to go at war with pakistan too , so pak was supporting binladen , and even that time india tried to warn the world , but nobody listened , and they still remain DUMB!
S3nd K3ys
nopaniers wrote:
Maybe you will put it in the historical context of Christian attacks in 1095-1099 when they massacred the population of Jerusalem. Or the unsuccessful crusade of 1101? Or the crusade in 1147-1149 when they tried to attack Damascus? Or the crusade from 1187-1197? Or from 1202-1204 when they massacred Byzantinium? Or the Children's Crusade of 1212 which was a disaster, and ended with the children being massacred or sold into slavery. Or the attacks on Egypt from 1215-1219? Or more attacks in 1228, 1243, 1248-1254, 1270, 1271-1291.

Of course, crusades weren't only against Muslims, but also against people in the Baltic states and Eastern Europe. These lasted up until the 16th century... when "Christian" Europe was busy attacking the rest of the world, literally.


Like I said...

S3nd K3ys wrote:
Welcome to the civilized world. As nations grow, and man matures, they grow out of it. Well, some do.


It seems the Muslims are having a hard time joining the civilized world.


Quote:
I hope your article includes countries, like Indonesia where Islam spread peacefully, brought by traders from India. I hope it includes the fact that Islam brought with it learning, medicine, mathematics, poetry, hospitals, ancient Greek and Roman texts, astronomy, schools and libraries. I hope it points out that Europe were in the dark ages with all sorts of horrible barbarism, and torture. Or that Islamic societies were more tolerant of other religions (such as Jews for example) than Christians were.


It will, but only as a country that caved in to the demands of the Muslims. Wink
gonzo
nopaniers wrote:
The European powers


is a phrase which does not describe a religion as does muslims. Thanks for playing.

Why didn't you try the delighful tract:

people do bad things. that's ok. that's life. muslims do bad things. that's ok. that's just life too. get over it.


Rolling Eyes
gonzo
nopaniers wrote:
Maybe you will put it in the historical context of Christian attacks in 1095-1099 when they


TOOK BACK THE LAND STOLEN IN THE WORLD DOMINATION ATTEMPT BY MUSLIMS

where's the context? oh, yes, you missed it big time.
nopaniers
S3nd K3ys wrote:
Welcome to the civilized world. As nations grow, and man matures, they grow out of it. Well, some do. It seems the Muslims are having a hard time joining the civilized world.


While I agree it is wrong to want to dominate the world, through force, no Islamic country does. Apparently they have grown out of it. There is only one country today seeking worldwide domination through force.



Quote:
Or that Islamic societies were more tolerant of other religions (such as Jews for example) than Christians were.

It will, but only as a country that caved in to the demands of the Muslims. Wink


As an example, Jews fled Christian Europe to Islamic Spain to escape persecution. In fact, many of the crusaders killed Jews on the way through, but (at the price of paying a small tax) they were allowed to live peacefully in Spain. When the Christians took over, they instituted the Spanish Inquisition, killing those who would not convert, burning thousands of Jews and Muslims at the stake.
LeviticusMky
Well, thank god that the Muslim's penchant for hatred and intolerance isn't reflected on our side.

It's a good thing that there is no hatred and intolerance being displayed here.

Oh... wait...
Texas Al
How hard can it be to agree that both sides are right?

Religions that entrust human beings with interpreting God's intentions for other human beings are inherently prone to abuse, fanaticism, and violence.

The only faith that can really be trusted is that of someone who privately believes what they believe, keeps their mouth shut about it, makes no attempt to convert or even convince anybody else, and lets their actions speak for themselves.

The rest are all the same damn psychotic cult, whether they call themselves Christians, Jews, Muslims, or Scientologists.
justmooit
This is such a generalization and a stereotype you can't simply say that the islamic people are like this or like that. Are people really that ignorant?? It's like saying that all catholics are not very peaceful people. Anyway Islam is a religion not a country or nation. You cannot blame the innocent citizens of these corrupted countries because of their corrupted governments. Peace is needed
tidruG
Texas Al wrote:
The only faith that can really be trusted is that of someone who privately believes what they believe, keeps their mouth shut about it, makes no attempt to convert or even convince anybody else, and lets their actions speak for themselves.

No such faith exists except in the hands of very few smart individuals.
Don't you think religion has become more about the amount of power these spiritual leaders have over us?


S3nd K3ys wrote:
It seems the Muslims are having a hard time joining the civilized world.

That borders on racism, by the way. While I would agree if you said "Fundamentalist muslims are having a hard time joining the civilized world", I think it's best to leave out the generalizations. It's been posted a million times in every Islam-realted thread you have started that you generalize all Muslims into one all-hating convert-pr-die propaganda spreading group. The truth, you should realize by now, is that this is far from true. So, please don't generalize all muslims based on the actions of some.

And also, your research should tell you of quite a few countries which have a majorly Muslim population and are still considered among the most civilized nations on earth... unless you only research the uncivilized Muslim countries so that you can't rant about them here...?
S3nd K3ys
justmooit wrote:
Anyway Islam is a religion not a country or nation. ...
<snip>
...Peace is needed


Peace? Muslims have been fighting and causing trouble for over 1300 years, and the only peace they offer is to "embrace Islam".

For example...

Quote:
We do not object to a long-term truce with you on the basis of fair conditions that we respect.


i.e. THEIR terms.

Quote:
If you have a genuine will to achieve security and peace, we have already answered you.


Praise be to Allah.

Quote:
Finally, I would like to tell you that the war is for you or for us to win. If we win it, it means your defeat and disgrace forever as the wind blows in this direction with God's help.

If you win it, you should read the history. We are a nation that does not tolerate injustice and seek revenge forever.

Days and nights will not go by until we take revenge as we did on 11 September, God willing, and until your minds are exhausted and your lives become miserable and things turn [for the worse], which you detest.


Quote:
We will remain patient in fighting you, God willing, until the one whose time has come dies first. We will not escape the fight as long as we hold our weapons in our hands.


Quote:
Peace be upon those who follow guidance.


Obviously, Peace doesn't sell here unless you're willing to abide by their religion. There will be no talking with these people. The ONLY thing they want to hear is "Praise be to Allah" from the mouth of every man, woman and child on the earth. Anything less will be unacceptable. They've said it over and over and over and over and over.

So is the only way to survive to destroy Radical Islam anywhere and everywhere it exists?

It's quite obvious (to me) that they will stop at nothing.

Quote:
It's been posted a million times in every Islam-realted thread you have started that you generalize all Muslims into one all-hating convert-pr-die propaganda spreading group. The truth, you should realize by now, is that this is far from true. So, please don't generalize all muslims based on the actions of some.


It should also be clear that I've stated more than once that while most muslims are NOT terrorists, most terrorists ARE muslims. Nothing racist about it except what you're trying to inject into it.
nopaniers
Can I just say that I agree with tidruG. Making generalisations about over a billion people based on the actions of a small minority is not right.
Tiger
It has been very interesting reading this topic!

Most of the discussion seems to revolve around Christians and Muslims and who comitted or wants to commit the worst atrocities. Someone also mentioned 'historical context'.

The interesting thing here is that Islam and Christianity followed, and are based on, Judaism, which began with Moses. The Jewish religion promotes 'an eye for an eye', but Jesus taught his followers to 'love your enemies' and be kind to all humanity.

The fact of the matter is that the Christianity we have today is far removed from the teachings of Jesus, and has been since the time of the Roman Emporor Constantine who allegedly converted on his deathbed.

If you know anything about the Romans, you should know that they adopted all religions and the gods of all the territories the conquered, 'just in case' they angered some god. This casts serious doubts on his conversion, especially when combined with the politics of the time.

Islam started some 600 years after the death of Jesus, and if you read that whole history you will see that it is not a peaceful religion at all. The Prophet Muhammed apparently did want friendship and co-operation between "the people of the Book", that is to say: Jews, Christians and Muslims, but when they rejected him, he took a more violent approach.

Following the topic: "Religion of Peace" when I read the history books, the only truly peaceful religion I have ever seen is Buddhism. Even adherents to the Hindu religion have killed people. Yet nowhere in the history books have I ever read of a Buddhist army invading other countries or killing people en masse as Judaism, Christianity and Islam have all done, and done to an exceeding degree.

Perhaps there are other peaceful religions on earth, but so far, the Buddhists have proved to be the most peaceful that I know of.

Sidenote: Jesus was visited by men from the East, and he may have had contact with India. He definitely went to Egypt, the Ancient centre of learning. And his teachings (including "the Kingdom of Heaven is within you") have equivalents in Buddhism. Ghandi is repusted to have said that he loved Jesus but hated Christians, because Jesus teachings were peaceful, but his followers are not.

I think it safe to say, that Judaism, Christianity and Islam, cannot compare to the peaceful teachings *and lifestyle* of Buddhism, which existed before the time of Jesus.

Something to think about!

BTW - I am not Buddhist.
tidruG
S3nd K3ys wrote:
It should also be clear that I've stated more than once that while most muslims are NOT terrorists, most terrorists ARE muslims. Nothing racist about it except what you're trying to inject into it.
I'm trying to inject nothing. I'm only pointing out what I and ... I dunno... 90% of the people replying to this and the other Islam-related threads feel. You repeatedly refer to "Muslims", and without specifying who you're referring to, you say "The ONLY thing they want to hear is "Praise be to Allah" from the mouth of every man, woman and child on the ...". Your tone is accusatory and rude, in case you didn't know.
To be honest, no Muslim has ever told me the advantages of converting to Islam (and since I live in India, I am constantly surrounded by Muslims... in fact, if you read up about Hyderabad, you'll find out that the Muslim density/population is much higher in this city than many other Indian cities), but I have been told several times by many of my Christian friends and their mothers about how much more of an advantage it is to convert to Christianity. In fact, the woman who does our laundry was offered money to convert to Christianity (and she did). I am not attacking Christianity. Just stating that forceful, yet subtle, conversions are more common in Christianity than in Islam (at least where I live)
S3nd K3ys
tidruG wrote:
I'm trying to inject nothing. I'm only pointing out what I and ... I dunno... 90% of the people replying to this and the other Islam-related threads feel. You repeatedly refer to "Muslims", and without specifying who you're referring to, you say "The ONLY thing they want to hear is "Praise be to Allah" from the mouth of every man, woman and child on the ...". Your tone is accusatory and rude, in case you didn't know.
To be honest, no Muslim has ever told me the advantages of converting to Islam (and since I live in India, I am constantly surrounded by Muslims... in fact, if you read up about Hyderabad, you'll find out that the Muslim density/population is much higher in this city than many other Indian cities), but I have been told several times by many of my Christian friends and their mothers about how much more of an advantage it is to convert to Christianity. In fact, the woman who does our laundry was offered money to convert to Christianity (and she did). I am not attacking Christianity. Just stating that forceful, yet subtle, conversions are more common in Christianity than in Islam (at least where I live)


Ok, tell you what... you get all the extreme mulsims to stop lumping all muslims with jihad and I'll stop pointing to references made by said muslims about them being terrorists.

You and... I dunno... 90% of people that hear something they don't like tend to cry 'racist' for no other reason than to try to make someone shut up because you can't dispute the topic on an intelligent level that pertains to the points in the topic, i.e. the FACT that most terrorists ARE Muslims and that Jihad is NOT a religion of peace.

Lastly, lets take a look at some of the terrorist attacks in the last few decades and you tell me who commited the attacks.

Quote:

1. In September 1972 at the Munich Olympics, 11 Israeli athletes were kidnapped, and 9 massacred by:

a. Olga Corbett
b. Roone Arledge, Jim McKay, and the staff of ABC's Wide World of Sports
c. Arnold Schwarzenegger
d. Male Muslim extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

2. In November 1979, the U.S. embassy in Iran was taken over, and 66 Americans were held hostage by:

a. A band of marauding Vikings
b. Snow White and the Seven Dwarves
c. Ali Babba and the Forty Thieves
d. Male Muslim extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

3. During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon, and one (William Buckley, a political officer at the U.S. Embassy in Beirut) murdered by:

a. Genghis Khan
b. The King of Sweden
c. The Boy Scouts
d. Male Muslim extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

4. In 1983, the US Embassy in Beirut was blown up, and 63 people were killed by:

a. Mickey, Donald, Goofy, and Pluto
b. The Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders
c. Frank Zappa and the Mothers of Invention
d. Male Muslim extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

5. In October 1983, the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up, and 242 Marines were killed by:

a. A pizza delivery boy
b. Pee Wee Herman
c. Geraldo Rivera
d. Male Muslim extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

6. In October 1985, the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year old wheelchair-bound American passenger, Leon Klinghoffer,was murdered and thrown overboard by:

a. The Smurfs
b. Davy Jones
c. The Little Mermaid
d. Male Muslim extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

7. In June 1985, TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a U.S. Navy diver, Robert Dean Stethem (Stethem was a passenger on the flight who tried to rescue other passengers), was murdered by:

a. Captain Kid
b. Charles Lindbergh
c. Mother Teresa
d. Male Muslim extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

8. In December 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed over Lockerbie, Scotland, and 259 passengers killed by:

a. Scooby Doo
b. The Tooth Fairy
c. Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid
d. Male Muslim extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

9. In February 1993, the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by:

a. Richard Simmons
b. Grandma Moses
c. Michael Jordan
d. Male Muslim extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

10. In November 1997, 58 tourists were killed and 26 wounded near Luxor in Egypt by machine guns wielded by:

a. The Headless Horseman
b. The Ghost of Christmas Past
c. Dracula
d. Male Muslim extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

11. In August 1998, the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were
bombed, and 224 people were murdered by:

a. Mr. Rogers
b. Hillary, to distract attention from Wild Bill' s escapades
c. The World Wrestling Federation
d. Male Muslim extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

12. In October 2001, the USS Cole was bombed, killing 17 sailors and wounding 37 others, by:

a. Roger Rabbit
b. Mother Goose
c. Darth Vader
d. Male Muslim extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

13. On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked; two were used as missiles to take out the World Trade Center, one was crashed into the US Pentagon, and the other was diverted to a crash by the passengers. Over 3,000 innocent people were killed by:

a. Bugs Bunny, Wiley E. Coyote, Daffy Duck and Elmer Fudd
b. The Supreme Court of Florida
c. Mr. Bean
d. Male Muslim extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

14. In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against:

a. Enron
b. The Lutheran Church
c. The NFL
d. Male Muslim extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

15. In February 2002, kidnapped Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl was murdered by:

a. Bonny and Clyde
b. Captain Kangaroo
c. Billy Graham
d.. Male Muslim extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

16. In October 2002, a nightclub in Bali, Indonesia, frequented by western tourists, was bombed, and almost 200 killed, by:

a. Bill Maher
b. The Teletubbies
c. Rocky and Bullwinkle
d. Male Muslim extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40
tidruG
Me and 90% of the people tend to cry racist because that's what we think your posts border on. You generalize Muslims as Jihad-warriors hell bent on converting the whole world... it appears pretty apparent in your tone.

By the way, in none of my posts have I denied that most terrorists are Muslims and I have also not denied the fact that Jihad is not peaceful. Perhaps you are reading a little more into my posts than required.

And by all means, don't stop posting to references made by confessed Islamic terrorists. Just don't say "Muslims this" and "muslims that". If you posted something like "Muslim terrorists" or "Islamic Radicalists", it would be acceptable. However, using the term "Muslims", which obviously includes civilized, non-violent muslims and then saying stuff like "Looks like the Muslims are having a tough time becoming civilized" (non-sic) borders on racism... or stupidity. And since you're not stupid, then it does appear almost racist. (At least to those of us who are not vaging a personal vendetta against Islam, or to those of us who are not fighting to prove to everyone that Islam is bad)... your threads against Islam are like your threads against liberalism. Try to look at this from a neutral point of your... it appears like you are as much biased against Islam as you are against liberalism, which is why your posts probably seem OK to you, but not to many other people.

Let's not get into a personal insult-throwing contest here.
Quote:
"you can't dispute the topic on an intelligent level"

As a moderator, I am simply making sure that threads remain clean and non-offensive

PS: And one more time... I am not going to argue the fact that most of the terrorist attacks of late were commited by Muslims, because it is a fact.
Devil
some one made a comment about christains trying to convert people ,

let me tell him that those are not christains , they are protestians , they have diff group and they need more people to make thier group big ,

R.C dont need to convert people , cuz it is simply the largest religion on earth ,

anyway , the point is u said muslims dont try to convert u ?

i live in a muslim country , and i know what i go through here , but i dont blame anyone for it ,

the fact that all terrorists are muslims , doesnt make all muslims terrorists, 2 wrongs dont make one right .

as much as i hate this islamic millitants , i still have great respect for our muslim brothers , cuz i live with them here everyday , and i know how they live thier lives just like u and me .

i have seen muslims leaders warning youngsters about not getting involved in the voilence , or terrorists activities ,

we cannot just blame the whole community for some bad people like laden , but as far as the Topic goes , islam is a religion of peace ,

I strongly disagree

cuz thier teachings dont suggest that , its very simple ,
nopaniers
Yesterday I was in Malaysia, a muslim country (actually it has a good mix of people of different races, and religion). It is one of the nicest countries I have been to, not in terms of wealth or tourist attractions, but in terms of people. The people were much friendlier than they are in say, London, Paris, Sydney or New York. They are nothing like the violent stereo-type, in fact, in many ways they are the opposite.

When I got there, for example, I left my luggage with a muslim woman. I felt comforted by the fact that I was leaving my bag with someone who was religiously obliged not to steal. She and her husband had a funny sense of humor, and we got on very well.

As I made my way around KL, you see all sorts of muslim things. Aside from the obvious headscarves for women, there's mosques and muslim bookshops. It's not threatening, its just different. It doesn't take long before you don't think twice about it, the same way as you don't think twice about people wearing shorts in Australia.

Muslims are just like everyone else. As I was walking around for example, I even saw weightloss posters for muslim women. There's all different types of people, from artsy people, to serious, quiet and loud... normal people doing everyday things, doing ordinary jobs and acting in much the same way as everyone else. I bought some ice-tea from a store with two muslim women, and when I turned up one was getting a back massage. Everywhere I went, even though they weren't the richest people in the world, I was struck by how nice everyone was to me, so much so that if I get the chance I will definitely go back.

So my prescription for people who believe in the biased portrayal of muslims as nasty people out to get you: Visit Malaysia and see for yourself.
Dan77
It seems too many people want to place the mantel of terrorism on all muslims.

Are all people who eat McDonalds fast food fat?
Many of them are so we'll just say they're all fat.

It doesn't work that way.

There are good and bad Muslims, Christians, Americans, Malaysians, English, Iraqis, Lawyers, Engineers and accountants.

Every group has it's good and bad members and everything in between.

Religion is no different than any other "Club" or group. So why does everyone get so heated up about it?
S3nd K3ys
Dan77 wrote:
It seems too many people want to place the mantel of terrorism on all muslims.

Are all people who eat McDonalds fast food fat?
Many of them are so we'll just say they're all fat.

It doesn't work that way.


Like so many before you, you've got it backwards:

Many people (rightfully so) place the mantel of muslim on all terrorists. Not the other way around. (Though I'm sure there are some that feel that way. But not me.)

So why does everyone feel the need to turn this around and claim 'racist' ??

Are you so offended by the FACT that most terrorists ARE muslims? So you're just going to try to spin it around to make it look like I'm saying all muslims are terrorists?

Rolling Eyes
nopaniers
S3nd K3ys wrote:
Many people (rightfully so) place the mantel of muslim on all terrorists.


Well I guess "many people" missed the IRA. They're such great muslims that they go to church and follow the pope. ETA are secretly probably muslims as well. The Maoists in Nepal are too. And the Hindu Tamil Tigers are probably muslims too. The Aum Shiriko sect wasn't really a sect, they must be muslim. The Congo is probably secretly muslim, and not 50% Christian, 48% animist. So are Rwanda (95% Christian) and Burundi (67% Christian, rest mostly indigenous beliefs). And oh, weren't the muslims such terrorists in Yugoslavia as they were being slaughtered by the Serbs and Croats? Haitians are probably muslim as well, as are the Farq in Columbia. "Many people" should get a better news service if they blame muslims for all terrorism.

Closer to home for you, Timothy McVeigh was obviously not a muslim, and Terry Rudolph bombed the Olympics (and carried out three other bombings across the US) because of the US government's "abominable sanctioning of abortion on demand." If I didn't know better that sounds more like a mislead Christian. You can't condemn Islam with mislead quotes from Bin Laden (like you tried to do) any more than you can condemn Christianity with mislead quotes like these:

"The purpose of the attack on July 27th (1996) was to confound, anger and embarrass the Washington government in the eyes of the world for its abominable sanctioning of abortion on demand," Rudolph said in the statement, which quoted the Bible throughout.

In his statement Wednesday, he said that while homosexuality does not pose a threat when kept in private, the "attempt to force society to accept and recognize this behavior" should be met with "force if necessary."


http://edition.cnn.com/2005/LAW/04/13/eric.rudolph/
http://english.people.com.cn/200504/14/eng20050414_180931.html
Jorge
I hope that one day humanity will move away from the "small circle" of bickering and move to the larger arena. It's not about Muslem this or Christian that, deep within the Muslem, Christian and Jew are just as ugly from the humanistic point of view. I've just spent about 10min looking for really nice, powerful quote and found exactly what I was looking for:

Quote:
Upon this theological instinct I make war: I find the tracks of it everywhere. Whoever has theological blood in his veins is shifty and dishonourable in all things. The pathetic thing that grows out of this condition is called faith: in other words, closing one's eyes upon one's self once for all, to avoid suffering the sight of incurable falsehood. People erect a concept of morality, of virtue, of holiness upon this false view of all things; they ground good conscience upon faulty vision; they argue that no other sort of vision has value any more, once they have made theirs sacrosanct with the names of "God," "salvation" and "eternity." I unearth this theological instinct in all directions: it is the most widespread and the most subterranean form of falsehood to be found on earth. Whatever a theologian regards as true must be false: there you have almost a criterion of truth. His profound instinct of self-preservation stands against truth ever coming into honour in any way, or even getting stated. Wherever the influence of theologians is felt there is a transvaluation of values, and the concepts "true" and "false" are forced to change places: what ever is most damaging to life is there called "true," and whatever exalts it, intensifies it, approves it, justifies it and makes it triumphant is there called "false."... When theologians, working through the "consciences" of princes (or of peoples--), stretch out their hands for power, there is never any doubt as to the fundamental issue: the will to make an end, the nihilistic will exerts that power...


Point #9 from Nietzsche's The Antichrist
http://www.fns.org.uk/ac.htm

Yeah who's your daddy (Oh, Father, frog give me for I have tanned) now! LOL
S3nd K3ys
Bible.ca wrote:
* Contrary to Muslim rhetoric that claims Islam means peace, the truth is that the word Islam does not mean peace, but "Submission" as this authority verifies: "The term Islam in the lexicon of the Arabs means 'Submission' to God." (Islam, Beliefs And Observances, Caesar E. Farah, p2-7, 26-35)
* Islam still bears the stigma in the West of a religion of violent fanatics, bent on conversion at all costs. Yet the Arabic word Islam means "submission" or "surrender," as in surrender to God; it also derives from salam, the Arabic word for "peace." Both meanings are present in the actual experience of Islam. And a Muslim (the spelling preferred to Moslem) is "one who submits" or surrenders to the will of God, thereby attaining peace of mind and soul. (The Joy of Sects, Peter Occhigrosso, 1996, p394-397)
* Muhammad called his new religion "Islam," a word which means submission, that is, submission to the will of Allah, the Lord. One who accepts Islam and makes such submission is a Muslim. Such a person is termed a mu'min (believer), and one who does not accept Islam is a kafir (unbeliever). To live in submission to Allah and in obedience to the teaching of the Prophet a Muslim, a Muslim must follow a rule formulated for him as a good Muslim. Such a rule is provided in the Shariah which is in the first instance on the Qur'an, in the second instance on the Hadith, the Traditions, in the third instance on Ijma’, the consensus of the community, and in the fourth instance on qiyas, the application of analogical reasoning to the other three sources for the deduction of new rules. Obviously, the Prophet's intention was that the community should be a single community and the Shari’a its common rule of life. (Islam: Muhammad and His Religion, Arthur Jeffery, 1958, p xi-xiv)

* "Fight and slay the pagans [Christians] wherever ye find them and seize them, confine them, and lie in wait for them in every place of ambush" (Surah 9:5)
* "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the last day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and his apostle nor acknowledge the religion of truth of the people of the Book (the Jews and the Christians) until they pay the Jizya [tax on non-Muslims] with willing submission and feel themselves subdued." (Surah 9:29)
* "Those who follow Muhammad are merciless for the unbelievers but kind to each other." (Qur'an 48:29)
* "Enmity and hatred will reign between us until ye believe in Allah alone." (Qur'an 60:4)
* Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them). And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily God doth see all that they do. (Qur'an 8:37-39)
* And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression. (Qur'an 2:193)
* "Fight the unbelievers in your surroundings, and let them find harshness in you." (Qur'an 9:123)
* "For he who believes in the Trinity, "the Fire will be his abode … a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemer." Qur'an (5:72-73)

* "You (the Jews) should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle and I wish to expel you from this land (Arabia) (Hadith, 4363)
* "I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslims." (Hadith Sahih 4366)


Seems pretty convincing to me. Maybe I'm just niave.
nopaniers
S3nd K3ys, can I humbly suggest that extremist Christian propoganda of Islam doesn't reflect Islam at all. The website you are quoting from also says that humans were around at the same time as dinosaurs.
S3nd K3ys
nopaniers wrote:
S3nd K3ys, can I humbly suggest that extremist Christian propoganda of Islam doesn't reflect Islam at all. The website you are quoting from also says that humans were around at the same time as dinosaurs.


Oh.

Crap.

You telling me that humans have only been around for 6,000 years and they are in the same genetic state they were in 6,000 years ago?


Ok, then. I guess that means their interpretations about the quotes posted are wrong.

How bout you show me the way then?
nopaniers
S3nd K3ys wrote:
You telling me that humans have only been around for 6,000 years and they are in the same genetic state they were in 6,000 years ago?

No, I am not. The website you were quoting from said that.

S3nd K3ys wrote:
Ok, then. I guess that means their interpretations about the quotes posted are wrong.

Yes. The website is extremely biased. They have deliberately set out to make Islam appear violent. I could do the same with the Bible, quoting say Judges and Kings.

Quote:
How bout you show me the way then?

I suggest the best way to learn about any religion is to talk to people from that religion (I'm Christian btw). The net is great for that: It makes people with all different views only a click or two away. At least that way you will know what you don't agree with... and you might be surprised at how much you agree on.

Or you could google, and get the information first hand:
Quote:

Islam is the religion of peace, love and tolerance. However, nowadays certain circles are trying to give Islamic morality the wrong image. The religion of Islam commands people to create an "abode of peace and well-being" on the face of the Earth, but those circles try to show the opposite of this as if there was a conflict between followers of other religions and Muslims. However, the view Islamic morality takes of Jews and Christians known in the Qur'an as the "People of the Book" is extremely just and merciful. God makes this known in the Qur'an as follows:

God does not forbid you from being good to those who have not fought you in the religion or driven you from your homes, or from being just towards them. God loves those who are just. (Qur'an, 60:8 )

Only argue with the People of the Book in the kindest way - except in the case of those of them who do wrong - saying, "We believe in what has been sent down to us and what was sent down to you. Our God and your God are one and we submit to Him." (Qur'an, 29:46)
...


This is from:
http://www.harunyahya.com/articles/people_of_the_book.php
S3nd K3ys
nopaniers wrote:

I suggest the best way to learn about any religion is to talk to people from that religion



I tried that here and got called a racist.
S3nd K3ys
nopaniers wrote:

Or you could google, and get the information first hand:
Quote:

Islam is the religion of peace, love and tolerance. However, nowadays certain circles are trying to give Islamic morality the wrong image. The religion of Islam commands people to create an "abode of peace and well-being" on the face of the Earth, but those circles try to show the opposite of this as if there was a conflict between followers of other religions and Muslims. However, the view Islamic morality takes of Jews and Christians known in the Qur'an as the "People of the Book" is extremely just and merciful. God makes this known in the Qur'an as follows:

God does not forbid you from being good to those who have not fought you in the religion or driven you from your homes, or from being just towards them. God loves those who are just. (Qur'an, 60:8 )

Only argue with the People of the Book in the kindest way - except in the case of those of them who do wrong - saying, "We believe in what has been sent down to us and what was sent down to you. Our God and your God are one and we submit to Him." (Qur'an, 29:46)
...


This is from:
http://www.harunyahya.com/articles/people_of_the_book.php



As for your quote from harunyahya.com:

Quote:
Only argue with the People of the Book in the kindest way - except in the case of those of them who do wrong - saying, "Our God and your God are one and we submit to Him." (Qur'an, 29:46)


That sure sounds to me like "fight non-believers"...

Lets break it down.

Saying
Quote:
"People of the Book"
assumes People following the Qur'an, not any religious book, like the Qur'an or the Bible. So anyone not following the Qur'an is fair game.

Saying
Quote:
"except in the case of those of them who do wrong"
implies (from below) that you're wrong if you don't follow the Qur'an.

Quote:
"We believe in what has been sent down to us and what was sent down to you. Our God and your God are one and we submit to Him."
Vindicates above statement about following the Qur'an. Also implies that THEIR God sent something down to you. Not YOUR God.

Like to play again?

Wink
nopaniers
"People of the book" includes people following the monotheistic beliefs which predated Islam including Christians, Jews (and sometimes even Zoroastrians). There are four books which are considered holy in Islam: The Torah, the Gospels, the Zabur (Psalms) and the Qur'an. In the same way that we consider the Gospels to supercede the Torah, they consider that the Qur'an supercedes the Gospels, and is God's final and perfect revelation.

So for example, the Qur'an teaches that both the Torah and the Gospels should be followed,
Quote:
"O People of the Book! Ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Tawrat, (and) the Injil." ( 5:68 )


Quote:
...Also implies that THEIR God sent something down to you.


Yes, it does. Just to be clear that "something" is the Old Testament and Gospels. I don't have a problem if Islam respects Christianity as inspired by God. I don't understand why you take offence at that.
Lennon
In this day and age we should be aware of the various ethnic and religious groups into the society, on a global and local community scale.
This awareness raises a problem of how various ethnic groups can live in harmony without threat of violence, racism, and indifference. The need for mutual acceptance is required by inclusion into the working environment, and a mutual respect for their beliefs.

nopaniers wrote:
the Qur'an teaches that both the Torah and the Gospels should be followed


The gospels teach us that we should reconcile any differences with our neighbour before we give more praise and worship to god.

Matthew 5:21-24 wrote:

You have heard that it was said to your ancestors, 'You shall not kill; and whoever kills will be liable to judgment.' But I say to you, whoever is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment, and whoever says to his brother, 'Raqa,' will be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, 'You fool,' will be liable to fiery Gehenna. Therefore, if you bring your gift to the altar, and there recall that your brother has anything against you, leave your gift there at the altar, go first and be reconciled with your brother, and then come and offer your gift.



The Qur'an teaches that conversion to Muslim is the only way to salvation (acceptable) and all other religions must be converted or eliminated for the purification of mankind before Allah (controversial). The use of violence is also included as a means of purification

[(Surah 9:5), (Surah 9:29), (Qur'an 48:29), (Qur'an 60:4), (Qur'an 8:37-39), (Qur'an 2:193), (Qur'an 9:123), Qur'an (5:72-73), (Hadith, 4363), (Hadith Sahih 4366)]

In a similar way, the pagan rituals of cannabilism and human sacrifice could be reasoned. So now I have personally questioned the sacred book, which by the Qur'an should also be treated with similar punishment. Another example is the law which demands punishment to non-muslims who read the Qur'an.
ainieas
I'll tell you what you been dying to hear but somehow no one on the board had said it straight. And coming from a Muslim, it must give you peace of mind.
Here goes - Islam is very unpeaceful religion. All it teaches is Jihad and to kill and plunder. All fights fought in the past and in the future were/will be fought by Muslims. In case it comes out that people of any other religion may be involved in something heinious it is to be known that they are actully Muslims in disguise because to be a Muslim is to be a *********. All the Muslims think about is world domination and slaughter of innocents, no love for family or land maybe because they have been taught about jihad so much that they no longer feel any bond towards anything. A Muslim mother never cries for her dead son or a father grieve at his daughter's funeral.

All Muslims are going to Hell or somewhere similar. Rather be a disciple of Satan than a Muslim.

There you go, happy now? Sleep in peace. And stop with your anti-Muslim threads. They aint helping anyone.

And just for the record - give me the name of the guy who had asked you to convert to Islam. Can't describe just how much I hate him right now.
thefounders
ainieas wrote:
I'll tell you what you been dying to hear but somehow no one on the board had said it straight. And coming from a Muslim, it must give you peace of mind.
Here goes - Islam is very unpeaceful religion. All it teaches is Jihad and to kill and plunder. All fights fought in the past and in the future were/will be fought by Muslims. In case it comes out that people of any other religion may be involved in something heinious it is to be known that they are actully Muslims in disguise because to be a Muslim is to be a *********. All the Muslims think about is world domination and slaughter of innocents, no love for family or land maybe because they have been taught about jihad so much that they no longer feel any bond towards anything. A Muslim mother never cries for her dead son or a father grieve at his daughter's funeral.

All Muslims are going to Hell or somewhere similar. Rather be a disciple of Satan than a Muslim.

There you go, happy now? Sleep in peace. And stop with your anti-Muslim threads. They aint helping anyone.

And just for the record - give me the name of the guy who had asked you to convert to Islam. Can't describe just how much I hate him right now.



Man, you kids are too fearful for your own good. To quote American History X, "Hate is baggage." You're forgetting how the world works:

Most of the people are just trying to survive at whatever level they feel is appropriate: "comfort." For some, this means having a home, family, friends and a job. For others, merely being alive meets all criteria. For some, taking over the world is the bare minimum.

This scale applies all over the world. The first group is the vast majority. They attain jobs and hobbies and try their best to get along with people.

The second group is the "hippie minority." They are at varying levels of activity, but a lot of them end up on the street at one point or another.

The third group consists of two subgroups: 1. people who need to control others, and 2. people who need to see their own personality traits in the people around them in order to experience self-confidence and self-acceptance.

Group 3b is where we get the people who actively try to convert others. To these people, any difference in life path is a challenge of, "I reject you and everything you stand for."


Basically, quit assuming other people are not human. It's easy to do, but ultimately accomplishes nothing but causing anger and resentment everywhere.
igor123d
It is clear that every religion or every ideology for that matter will have supporters who are considered extreme. No belief system has been exempt from this situation and as a result one should not look unfavorably on a religon simply because of the existance of these dubious personages.
S3nd K3ys
Here's a few (more) things the peaceful, loving Muhammad had to say about Christians.
Quote:

"O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust." Qur’an 5:51

Quote:

"O ye who believe! take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport,- whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject Faith; but fear ye Allah, if ye have faith (indeed)."
Qur’an 5:57


Quote:
"Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures."
Qur’an 98:6


Quote:

“They are surely infidels who blaspheme and say: ‘God is Christ, the Messiah, the son of Mary.’ But the Messiah only said: ‘O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.’”
Qur’an 5:72


Quote:

Qur’an 72:15 “But the Qasitun (disbelievers) are the firewood of hell.”


Quote:
Qur’an 88:1 “Has the narration reached you of the overwhelming (calamity)? Some faces (Jews and Christians) that Day, will be humiliated, downcast, scorched by the burning fire, while they are made to drink from a boiling hot spring.”


Quote:
Qur’an 9:29 “Fight those who do not believe in Allah or the Last Day, who do not forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, or acknowledge the Religion of Truth (Islam), (even if they are) People of the Book (Christians and Jews), until they pay the Jizyah tribute tax in submission, feeling themselves subdued and brought low.” [Another translation says:] “pay the tax in acknowledgment of our superiority and their state of subjection.”


Quote:
Qur’an 5:14 “From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We made a covenant, but they forgot and abandoned a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, stirred up enmity and hatred among them to the Day of Doom. Soon will Allah show them the handiwork they have done.”


Yep. That's peaceful and loving and tolerant.
Lennon
in some muslim states it's death penalty for mistranslating the sacred scripture, or so I've been warned by my muslim friend.
S3nd K3ys
Lennon wrote:
in some muslim states it's death penalty for translating the sacred scripture.


Wonder why? Are the hiding something?
S3nd K3ys
I don't know if you've read this article in the BBC yet, but I found these quotes to be very telling about the entire situation:

Quote:
"They want to test our feelings," protester Mawli Abdul Qahar Abu Israra told the BBC.

"They want to know whether Muslims are extremists or not. Death to them and to their newspapers," he said.

"death to Denmark" and "death to France"


I'm glad that's all cleared up. Rolling Eyes
nopaniers
Lennon wrote:
in some muslim states it's death penalty for translating the sacred scripture.


Can you cement your claim with a concrete example?
Soulfire
Islam isn't peaceful. The Islam world is nothing but instability, death, chaos, and destruction.
bangala
tidruG wrote:
Me and 90% of the people tend to cry racist because that's what we think your posts border on. You generalize Muslims as Jihad-warriors hell bent on converting the whole world... it appears pretty apparent in your tone.

By the way, in none of my posts have I denied that most terrorists are Muslims and I have also not denied the fact that Jihad is not peaceful. Perhaps you are reading a little more into my posts than required.

And by all means, don't stop posting to references made by confessed Islamic terrorists. Just don't say "Muslims this" and "muslims that". If you posted something like "Muslim terrorists" or "Islamic Radicalists", it would be acceptable. However, using the term "Muslims", which obviously includes civilized, non-violent muslims and then saying stuff like "Looks like the Muslims are having a tough time becoming civilized" (non-sic) borders on racism... or stupidity. And since you're not stupid, then it does appear almost racist. (At least to those of us who are not vaging a personal vendetta against Islam, or to those of us who are not fighting to prove to everyone that Islam is bad)... your threads against Islam are like your threads against liberalism. Try to look at this from a neutral point of your... it appears like you are as much biased against Islam as you are against liberalism, which is why your posts probably seem OK to you, but not to many other people.

Let's not get into a personal insult-throwing contest here.
Quote:
"you can't dispute the topic on an intelligent level"

As a moderator, I am simply making sure that threads remain clean and non-offensive

PS: And one more time... I am not going to argue the fact that most of the terrorist attacks of late were commited by Muslims, because it is a fact.


Well said Smile
Lied
Greece own its freedom partialy to the barbaric muslim army.In reality under the great -back then- Othoman Empire we had no chance of liberating ouselfs without the help of the rest of the europe which then, dipressed every action against liberation with arms.But muslims did the work for us.Massacred Hios, an island with civilians,decapitated Patriach Gregory the 5th.Most of the cruelty however was paid back though.But thanks for starting it! Laughing

And please correct me if i am mistaken, but does the Quoran says, Kill the unfaithful?
nam_siddharth
Do not talk about peace on frihost. It is strongly prohibited here. Let us talk on hate.
mike1reynolds
I'd like to make a distinction between Judeo-Christian religions (which includes Islam) and Eastern religions. While Hinduism has had some problems as of late, in general, Eastern religions are peaceful and Western Judeo-Christian religions are violent. Judeo-Christians have a strong 'us vs. them' mentality: you are either Christian or heathen, Jew or gentile, Muslim or infidel. No Eastern religion has such a distinction. While Genghis Khan tried to conquer the world, it was not based on a religious pretext and no proselytizing took place. Other than that, I can’t think of another Eastern attempt. So I agree with Tiger, who made these comments about Buddhism, but extend them a bit to definitely include Taoism, and despite some problems I think Hinduism should get an honorable mention as well.

As to the Qu’ran, did you know that it was not written by Mohammed? It was dictated (the word Qu’ran means recitation or dictation) to Mohammed by an entity that he only saw twice in his life. This entity is supposedly the Archangel Gabriel, but I don’t believe it. The Qu’ran reads like a Hellfire and brimstone Baptist minister on speed, virtually EVERY paragraph is a different topic, like a shady used car salesman constantly changing the topic to avoid being pinned down on his deception. There are endless angry references to all of the people that are going to Hell, and even though there is some tolerance given to Christianity and Judaism, there are plenty of angry accusatory comments about Christians and Jews as well. And Hindus don’t even count in the Qu’ran, they are completely assed out.

On the other side of the coin, I’ve heard and read some quotes from Mohammed that are some of the heaviest things I’ve ever heard from any spiritual leader. I haven’t found a good source of Hadiths that quote his sayings about heavy topics like the End Times, for example, so I don’t know how reflective this is of his views as a whole, but the profound quotes he’s made that I have read sound NOTHING like the Qu’ran. They are coherent, focused and mind blowing, without the fanaticism and incoherent flailing about with perpetually changing topic that marks the Qu’ran as almost 100% garbage.

I once tried to engage an Imam on this topic, but not surprisingly, like most brain-washing victims he could not even address an incisively critical point that is indefensible. No matter how many times I praised Mohammed and criticized the Qu’ran and it’s author, the supposed Archangel Gabriel, he would always turn the argument back to the credibility of Mohammed. I think that he was a heavy dude, who was unfortunately illiterate and so had no power of discrimination when it came to discerning good from evil after being approached by a high level demon. Actually, his gut reaction told him demon; after his first encounter with this supposed archangel, he fled the scene in terror and was left tremboling for hours until he reached his wife and she calmed him down. He would have remained convinced that it was a demon (jin or as anglicized: genie), but his wife was so enamored of being the wife of the “Law Giver” that she enlisted Mohammed’s elderly Christian cousin to convince Mohammed that what the entity had told him was true. I think that if Mohammed had been literate and knew something about religious history this would have been a very hard sell.
mike1reynolds
I think that Islam is the most violence prone religion next to Christianity, but when it comes to racism I think that Christianity is worse. There is a scene in one of the Gospels where a gentile, a Sumerian I think, comes to Jesus for a healing and he retorts, "I came only for the Jews." Then he calls her a dog. She puts him to shame by saying, "Even dogs eat crumbs from the master's table." At this he relents and heals her. So I think that Jesus himself was racists, which is what beggests the violence in Christianity, whereas the violence of Islam is, I believe, a result of the direct but covert intent of the auther (which, as I mentioned above, isn't Mohammed).
mike1reynolds
I almost forgot about Sufis. We're always hearing about Shiites, Sunnis and Wahabis, but the only sect anyone was familiar with before the invasion of Iraq was Sufiism.

I challenge anyone to name ONE Sufi terrorist! Its possible that the Chechen terrorists who attacked Russia were Sufis, but I think unlikely. They probably weren't even Chechen nationals, most of the terrorists in Chechnia are foreigners from other sects. Even though Russia has committed utterly terroristic acts of unspeakable mass violence on Chechnia, the Chechen president in exile doesn't hesitate to denounce the terrorists. The Sufi sect is mystically oriented and extremely peaceful. It is a terrible shame that this distinction has gone almost completely unnoticed in the post 9/11 world where the US has done virtually nothing to condemn Russia for its campaign of terror against Chechnia.
Bikerman
OK...the passage of quotes from the Quran cannot go without challenge. You cannot use scripture in this way to condemn a religion unless you yourself are willing to have the same treatment meated out.

S3nd K3ys wrote:

"O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust." Qur’an 5:51


American foreign policy seems to vindicate this totally.

next

Quote:

"O ye who believe! take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport,- whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject Faith; but fear ye Allah, if ye have faith (indeed)."
Qur’an 5:57


The bible equivalent would be :
Quote:
"If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through.


next

Quote:
"Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures."
Qur’an 98:6

Bible on opponents....which to choose....OK...
Quote:

"Should people cheat God? Yet you have cheated me! "But you ask, 'What do you mean? When did we ever cheat you?' "You have cheated me of the tithes and offerings due to me. You are under a curse, for your whole nation has been cheating me. Bring all the tithes into the storehouse so there will be enough food in my Temple. If you do," says the LORD Almighty, "I will open the windows of heaven for you. I will pour out a blessing so great you won't have enough room to take it in! Try it! Let me prove it to you! Your crops will be abundant, for I will guard them from insects and disease. Your grapes will not shrivel before they are ripe," says the LORD Almighty. (Malachi 3:8-11 NLT)


next

Quote:

“They are surely infidels who blaspheme and say: ‘God is Christ, the Messiah, the son of Mary.’ But the Messiah only said: ‘O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.’”
Qur’an 5:72

see above, but also
Quote:

"I have wiped out many nations, devastating their fortress walls and towers. Their cities are now deserted; their streets are in silent ruin. There are no survivors to even tell what happened. I thought, 'Surely they will have reverence for me now! Surely they will listen to my warnings, so I won't need to strike again.' But no; however much I punish them, they continue their evil practices from dawn till dusk and dusk till dawn." So now the LORD says: "Be patient; the time is coming soon when I will stand up and accuse these evil nations. For it is my decision to gather together the kingdoms of the earth and pour out my fiercest anger and fury on them. All the earth will be devoured by the fire of my jealousy. "On that day I will purify the lips of all people, so that everyone will be able to worship the LORD together. My scattered people who live beyond the rivers of Ethiopia will come to present their offerings. (Zephaniah 3:6-10 NLT)


Quote:

Qur’an 72:15 “But the Qasitun (disbelievers) are the firewood of hell.”


Many example in the bible...here is an average one :
Quote:

Then, with Micah's idols and his priest, the men of Dan came to the town of Laish, whose people were peaceful and secure. They attacked and killed all the people and burned the town to the ground. There was no one to rescue the residents of the town, for they lived a great distance from Sidon and had no allies nearby. This happened in the valley near Beth-rehob.Then the people of the tribe of Dan rebuilt the town and lived there. They renamed the town Dan after their ancestor, Israel's son, but it had originally been called Laish. (Judges 18:27-29 NLT)


next

Quote:
Qur’an 88:1 “Has the narration reached you of the overwhelming (calamity)? Some faces (Jews and Christians) that Day, will be humiliated, downcast, scorched by the burning fire, while they are made to drink from a boiling hot spring.”


OK...a bible equivalent ..
Quote:
After Joshua died, the Israelites asked the LORD, "Which tribe should attack the Canaanites first?" The LORD answered, "Judah, for I have given them victory over the land." The leaders of Judah said to their relatives from the tribe of Simeon, "Join with us to fight against the Canaanites living in the territory allotted to us. Then we will help you conquer your territory." So the men of Simeon went with Judah. When the men of Judah attacked, the LORD gave them victory over the Canaanites and Perizzites, and they killed ten thousand enemy warriors at the town of Bezek. While at Bezek they encountered King Adoni-bezek and fought against him, and the Canaanites and Perizzites were defeated. Adoni-bezek escaped, but the Israelites soon captured him and cut off his thumbs and big toes. Adoni-bezek said, "I once had seventy kings with thumbs and big toes cut off, eating scraps from under my table. Now God has paid me back for what I did to them." They took him to Jerusalem, and he died there. The men of Judah attacked Jerusalem and captured it, killing all its people and setting the city on fire. (Judges 1:1-8 NLT)


next
Quote:
Qur’an 9:29 “Fight those who do not believe in Allah or the Last Day, who do not forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, or acknowledge the Religion of Truth (Islam), (even if they are) People of the Book (Christians and Jews), until they pay the Jizyah tribute tax in submission, feeling themselves subdued and brought low.” [Another translation says:] “pay the tax in acknowledgment of our superiority and their state of subjection.”


Easy to match that from the bible...let me see...which one to choose...
Quote:
"Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you," says the LORD. "Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction". (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)


or perhaps
Quote:

You must destroy all the nations the LORD your God hands over to you. Show them no mercy and do not worship their gods. If you do, they will trap you. Perhaps you will think to yourselves, 'How can we ever conquer these nations that are so much more powerful than we are?' But don't be afraid of them! Just remember what the LORD your God did to Pharaoh and to all the land of Egypt. Remember the great terrors the LORD your God sent against them. You saw it all with your own eyes! And remember the miraculous signs and wonders, and the amazing power he used when he brought you out of Egypt. The LORD your God will use this same power against the people you fear. And then the LORD your God will send hornets to drive out the few survivors still hiding from you! "No, do not be afraid of those nations, for the LORD your God is among you, and he is a great and awesome God. The LORD your God will drive those nations out ahead of you little by little. You will not clear them away all at once, for if you did, the wild animals would multiply too quickly for you. But the LORD your God will hand them over to you. He will throw them into complete confusion until they are destroyed. He will put their kings in your power, and you will erase their names from the face of the earth. No one will be able to stand against you, and you will destroy them all. (Deuteronomy 7:16-24 NLT)


next

Quote:
Qur’an 5:14 “From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We made a covenant, but they forgot and abandoned a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, stirred up enmity and hatred among them to the Day of Doom. Soon will Allah show them the handiwork they have done.”


OK..theme of rival estrangements...let's go with..
Quote:

When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are about to enter and occupy, he will clear away many nations ahead of you: the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites. These seven nations are all more powerful than you. When the LORD your God hands these nations over to you and you conquer them, you must completely destroy them. Make no treaties with them and show them no mercy. Do not intermarry with them, and don't let your daughters and sons marry their sons and daughters. They will lead your young people away from me to worship other gods. Then the anger of the LORD will burn against you, and he will destroy you. (Deuteronomy 7:1-4 NLT)

Quote:

Yep. That's peaceful and loving and tolerant.


Christians claim the same thing.....

Chris
S3nd K3ys
Bikerman wrote:
OK...

Christians claim the same thing.....

Chris


Christians aren't beheading people, hanging mutilated bodies from bridges, dragging dead bodies thru town, murdering women and children whilst hiding behind them, and trying to spread Christianity via the sword. Rolling Eyes

It's the same old crap that's been going on for over a thousand years, only now the Christians aren't on a world-wide conquest. They've realized (accepted) other religions may not want to be changed. It's called tolerance.

The Islamic radicals have openly admitted their intent; to convert or destroy all non believers.
Bikerman
S3nd K3ys wrote:
Bikerman wrote:
OK...

Christians claim the same thing.....

Chris


Christians aren't beheading people, hanging mutilated bodies from bridges, dragging dead bodies thru town, murdering women and children whilst hiding behind them, and trying to spread Christianity via the sword. :roll:

It's the same old crap that's been going on for over a thousand years, only now the Christians aren't on a world-wide conquest. They've realized (accepted) other religions may not want to be changed. It's called tolerance.

The Islamic radicals have openly admitted their intent; to convert or destroy all non believers.


My point was that your posting condemning on the basis of scripture was only valid if you apply the same to christianity. It still is my point. I did not address or even comment on the wider issue because I don't want to get involved in this thread too much. My point, however, was and is valid.
Chris
S3nd K3ys
Bikerman wrote:
My point, however, was and is valid.
Chris


If your point that they were claiming they wanted to spread Christianity, it IS a valid point, But trying to relate it to what Islam is doing, is NOT. Wink

If your point was having me be willing to have the same treatment meated out, again, as a reference to what Islam is doing, the same treatment itself is invalid, because Christians don't treat others the same way. Wink

If your point was in assuming I was referring only to scripture, it's valid. But I wasn't referring to scripture, I was referring to current actions.
mike1reynolds
While I don't think much of Christianity, your characterization of the Bible is false. In Romans 11 Paul states that Jews are saved, even as they are "enemies of the gospel". Clearly there is a much greater note of tolerance in the Bible than there is in the Qur'an.
Bikerman
mike1reynolds wrote:
While I don't think much of Christianity, your characterization of the Bible is false. In Romans 11 Paul states that Jews are saved, even as they are "enemies of the gospel". Clearly there is a much greater note of tolerance in the Bible than there is in the Qur'an.


I didn't characterise anything. I merely tried to point out that selecting quotes from scriptural sources proves very little about the religion and I did so by chosing like for like quotes to the ones posted...
You interpret the bible how you want...that's the idea.

Regards
Chris.
S3nd K3ys
The Religion of Peace declares Peace Keepers as enemies of Islam

Quote:

Zawahri says U.N. force in Lebanon enemy of Islam

11 Sep 2006 12:40:20 GMT
Source: Reuters

...
"The biggest problem with resolution 1701 and similiar resolutions designed to humiliate Muslims is that its declaration of the existence of the Jewish state and the isolation of the mujahideen in Palestine from the Muslims in Lebanon by the presence of international forces that are the enemies of Islam."


How ironic.

I wonder just how far the true peaceful Islamics will tolerate their name being smeared with this vile, putrid, violent hatred.

Or will they allow it to be completely ruined by the radicals who are so loud and quick to profess death to anyone who does not submit to them?

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L11298112.htm
S3nd K3ys
Al Jazeera Arabic Poll: 49.9% Support Osama Bin Laden


41,260 Arab Voters at Al Jazeera wrote:


1) Is the world safer after September 11?
Yes - 4.2 %
No - 95.8 %

2) Do you support Osama bin Laden?
Yes - 49.9 %
No - 50.1 %

3) Do you think that the war on Iraq is a war on Islam?
Yes - 79.8 %
No - 20.2 %

4) Do you think that there is a link between the war on terrorism and the war on Iraq?
Yes - 23.4 %
No - 76.6 %

5) Do you wish to travel to the United States?
Yes - 27.6 %
No - 72.4 %


The religion of what? Rolling Eyes
Bikerman
What is suprising about that result ? It's about what I would have predicted I reckon.
Bikerman
Imagine you live in Jordan or Syria or even Lebanon.
What is your perception of the world ?
Well. The US is occupying your most holy land in Saudi. It is propping up a brutal and repressive royal family who run the country by fear.
Every few years the US come over and kill several tens of thousands of your neighbours. The US also are instrumental in preventing your other neighbours from having their own land back and having to live in camps and makeshift accomodation.

Then Osama BL comes along and says you are right and the answer is to remove the infidel from your lands. That's a pretty attractive proposition to you, even though you are fundamentally peaceful and want nothing more than to be left alone to live your life.
In fact OBL looses support when he then goes on to talk about his idea of Islam - then the people start disagreeing and he starts to loose support (that accounts for a large part of the half that don't support him).
Be honest though...why would you not support someone who is (to you) fighting for you and your neighbours against a powerful enemy ?

Chris.
S3nd K3ys
Bikerman wrote:
What is suprising about that result ? It's about what I would have predicted I reckon.


It's not a suprise to me either, but I bet it's a suprise to all the Arabs on this board who claim Islam is really peaceful, yet they support the terrorism and barbarism OBL brings.

American-Muslim groups like CAIR and MPAC refused to commemorate 9/11
victims on Monday (but did find the time to laud a sponsor of Islamic terror).

How nice for the Religion of Peace.
S3nd K3ys
Bikerman wrote:
Imagine you live in Jordan or Syria or even Lebanon.



No thanks. It sounds like a truly disgusting place to live by my standards.

Quote:
What is your perception of the world ?


How the ****** do I get out of here and get to someplace civilized? would be my perception I suppose.

BTW, don't forget that Islam has been doing this shit long before the USA was even born, so you trying to blame it on US is weak at best. Wink
Bikerman
S3nd K3ys wrote:

BTW, don't forget that Islam has been doing this **** long before the USA was even born, so you trying to blame it on US is weak at best. :wink:


Doing what ?
S3nd K3ys
Bikerman wrote:
S3nd K3ys wrote:

BTW, don't forget that Islam has been doing this **** long before the USA was even born, so you trying to blame it on US is weak at best. Wink


Doing what ?


Um, baking cookies for all thier neighbors because they're so nice... Rolling Eyes

Seriously, in case you really don't know, claiming Islam is peaceful and trying to conquer the world by murdering women and children while hiding behind them.
Bikerman
S3nd K3ys wrote:
Bikerman wrote:
What is suprising about that result ? It's about what I would have predicted I reckon.


It's not a suprise to me either, but I bet it's a suprise to all the Arabs on this board who claim Islam is really peaceful, yet they support the terrorism and barbarism OBL brings.

I bet a lot of Arabs feel exactly the same way when they saw Bush relelected to power. How can this country claim to be peaceful and trying to help us when all we see is them killing, torturing, humiliating and locking up our people. So many people have been killed in the 2 gulf wars and now in the aftermath, that lots of people will know someone who has died under a bomb or been spirited away to some jail.
You don't have to be a violent person to get angry when your loved ones are blown to bits.
It's enough to make most angry when a couple of years ago they were a doctor or teacher in a modern workplace and now they have to dodge car bombs and scrape around for whatever food they can find in the semi-destroyed markets...it would probably make me a bit tetchy as well.
Iraq was not some pit of sin, it was a relatively modern and prosperous country a couple of decades ago. I'm not defending Saddam for a moment - he was a brutal dictator for sure, but compared to today it must have been a paradise then.
S3nd K3ys
Bikerman wrote:
S3nd K3ys wrote:
Bikerman wrote:
What is suprising about that result ? It's about what I would have predicted I reckon.


It's not a suprise to me either, but I bet it's a suprise to all the Arabs on this board who claim Islam is really peaceful, yet they support the terrorism and barbarism OBL brings.

I bet a lot of Arabs feel exactly the same way when they saw Bush relelected to power. How can this country claim to be peaceful and trying to help us when all we see is them killing, torturing, humiliating and locking up our people. So many people have been killed in the 2 gulf wars and now in the aftermath, that lots of people will know someone who has died under a bomb or been spirited away to some jail.
You don't have to be a violent person to get angry when your loved ones are blown to bits.
It's enough to make most angry when a couple of years ago they were a doctor or teacher in a modern workplace and now they have to dodge car bombs and scrape around for whatever food they can find in the semi-destroyed markets...it would probably make me a bit tetchy as well.
Iraq was not some pit of sin, it was a relatively modern and prosperous country a couple of decades ago. I'm not defending Saddam for a moment - he was a brutal dictator for sure, but compared to today it must have been a paradise then.


The Jews are not promoting brain washing the children in military training camps, teaching them how to blow themselves up and cause maximum deaths of Jews and other non Muslims.

The Jews don't hijack planes, nor kill athletes at the Olympics.

The Jews don't traffic slaves, nor have leaders calling for Jihad and death to all the Infidels.

Perhaps the world's Muslims should consider investing more in standard education and less in blaming the Jews and Americnas for all their problems.

Regardless of your feelings about the crisis between Israel and the Palestinians and Arab neighbors, even if you believe there is more culpability on Israel's part , the following two sentences really say it all:

If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence.

If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel
Bikerman
S3nd K3ys wrote:

Seriously, in case you really don't know, claiming Islam is peaceful and trying to conquer the world by murdering women and children while hiding behind them.


Really ? How many countries have they conquered in the last few decades then? How many countries have been invaded by the muslim hoardes ? I can think of 1 - Kuwait, which was muslim to start with and regarded by most Iraqis as part of greater Iraq - a bit like the US invading Panama for example. Apart from that ? Any at all ?

Now how many have the US invaded in the same timeframe ?

OK, you say, I mean they have been blowing people up, not invading countries.

OK. How many people in the west have been killed by Muslims in the last 20 years ? The London and Madrid bombings, 9/11...thats about 3800. Several other nasty bombings around the world...call it 10,000 being pessimistic.
How many muslims have been killed by the west in the same period ? Ten, twenty, thirty times as many ? Probably many more than that. The numbers for Iraq are not known because the US do not keep a record and there is no central agency left to record them. Estimates from charities and others on the ground range from 40,000 to 60,000 civilians and a respected medical Journal here puts the figure at over 100,000. That is just in this one place and doesn't include Palestinians, Afghanis and Iraqis from the last invasion.

The Islamic terrorists blow themselves up with the bus or train or whatever. The US do it from 30,000 ft.

Thats how I would imagine it would possibly seem to a Muslim. And what do you tell him to explain that it is not the same at all ?
He will point out that apart from 9/11, most of the the suicide bombers started in response to US occupation and war on Iraq and though he thinks they are completely wrong he might point out that a few dozen extremists with bombs strapped to them are hardly likely to take over the western world, wheras people with tanks planes and big bombs are more than likely to take over their countries and have already done so.
He might ask you what started the US on their killing spree. What do you say ? Ahh..but we are trying to bring democracy to you. He might look around his country and find that hard to take...

I'm not defending extremists, I'm simply pointing out how it might look to someone from Iraq or Iran or any of the surrounding countries and why the poll figures are not really surprising.
Bikerman
S3nd K3ys wrote:

Regardless of your feelings about the crisis between Israel and the Palestinians and Arab neighbors, even if you believe there is more culpability on Israel's part , the following two sentences really say it all:

If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence.

I don't see how you get there. Iraqis were not waving guns around before their invasion.

Let's assume we are just talking about Israel and palestine though (althoug that is very artificial since the major deaths are in Iraq and Afghanistan). Let's also assume that Israel do, indeed, agree not to invade Lebanon if the guns are silenced (and I think that is taking an extremely generous, if not naive, view of things, but anyway, lets do it).
What we then have is a permenant removal of the Palentinians country.

So what you are proposing is - OK, we have your land and we rule you
and control you, but if you just stop fighting back then it will be fine.
That does seem a little unfair.
Quote:

If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel

So it's no more Palestine if the Arabs put them down, but no guarantees on the rest of the region because the US might wish to export a bit more democracy. And it's no more Israel if the Israelis put them down....hmm...back to square 1.

Chris
S3nd K3ys
Bikerman wrote:


Really ?...

really surprising.


Weekly Jihad Report for (9/03 - 9/09)
Jihad Attacks: 60
Dead Bodies: 272
Critically Injured: 621

Monthly Jihad Report for (August, 2006)
Jihad Attacks: 209
Dead Bodies: 1030
Critically Injured: 2337

Since 9/11/01, over 5,800 Islamic terror attacks have been carried out.

The Real 2006 Iraq Body Count:

Iraqi civilians killed this year by Islamic Terrorists: 8,536

Iraqi civilians killed collaterally by Americans: 60*

* (includes civilians caught in crossfire who may have been killed by the terrorists)

Now if you'd like to keep playing this game, how about you list a country that the US invaded for the purpose of converting them to Christianity.

For that matter, list a military attack based soley on the premise of converting those attacked to Christianity, i.e. Jihad.

Silly kids. Laughing
Bikerman
S3nd K3ys wrote:


Weekly Jihad Report for (9/03 - 9/09)
Jihad Attacks: 60
Dead Bodies: 272
Critically Injured: 621

Monthly Jihad Report for (August, 2006)
Jihad Attacks: 209
Dead Bodies: 1030
Critically Injured: 2337

Since 9/11/01, over 5,800 Islamic terror attacks have been carried out.

The Real 2006 Iraq Body Count:

Iraqi civilians killed this year by Islamic Terrorists: 8,536

Iraqi civilians killed collaterally by Americans: 60*

* (includes civilians caught in crossfire who may have been killed by the terrorists)

Now if you'd like to keep playing this game, how about you list a country that the US invaded for the purpose of converting them to Christianity.

No I can't. Can you name a country the Muslims have invaded to convert them to Islam ?

What I can do is give you a list of about 40 countries which the US has destabilised or invaded to change the political system and remove the government. Here you go..
http://camres.frih.net/USInterventions.html

I don't want to get into a protracted body comparison for three reasons:
1) It serves no purpose - my point was to try and show how an Arab might feel and why that Arab might be one of the 49% supporting OBL. I repeatedly made clear that I was not taking a position or presenting what I believe, just trying to give a possible perspective.

2) Without sources figures are meaningless. I never accept any stats on the net unless I have a source reference - I am normally careful about making sure I do the same for figures I quote. Speaking of which, the sources for my earlier figure of 100,000 which I did quote and forgot to reference :
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3962969.stm
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/29/iraq.deaths/

3) It would get complex and messy. For a proper comparison we'd have to start figuring in the extras like the 500,000 deaths due to sanctions since 1991, and work out how much each country had contributed. Then there is the Thai Jihad and various other sources of death.

Why not just agree that the US has killed and been responsible for the deaths of a large number of muslims and, by the same token, Muslims have killed a large number of people, some of who were US and other western citizens.

My position is clear and unambiguous - both are wrong and neither can absolve themselves with talk of intention or other special pleading.

Quote:

For that matter, list a military attack based soley on the premise of converting those attacked to Christianity, i.e. Jihad.

Jihad means 'strive for islam' and can be anything from taking up arms to defend fellow muslims (the meaning normally attributed to it) to a father providing for his family. It is not based on converting anyone to Islam it is a striving FOR Islam.
Silly kids. :lol:[/quote]

Regards
Chris.
S3nd K3ys
Quote:
defend fellow muslims (the meaning normally attributed to it)


Defend them against what? People not submitting to Islam? Shocked

My dictionary says Jihad =
1. a holy war undertaken as a sacred duty by Muslims.
2. any vigorous, emotional crusade for an idea or principle.



Bikerman wrote:

No I can't. Can you name a country the Muslims have invaded to convert them to Islam ?


I honestly didn't think you'd take the bait!

Muslims have taken military action in the name of Islam (or attempted to and been thwarted) in Iraq and India and the Sudan and Algeria and Afghanistan and New York and Pakistan and Israel and Russia and Chechnya and the Philippines and Indonesia and Nigeria and England and Thailand and Spain and Egypt and Bangladesh and Saudi Arabia and Ingushetia and Dagestan and Turkey and Kabardino-Balkaria and Morocco and Yemen and Lebanon and France and Uzbekistan and Gaza and Tunisia and Kosovo and Bosnia and Mauritania and Kenya and Eritrea and Syria and Somalia and California and Kuwait and Virginia and Ethiopia and Iran and Jordan and United Arab Emirates and Louisiana and Texas and Tanzania and Germany and Pennsylvania and Belgium and Denmark and East Timor and Qatar and Maryland and Tajikistan and the Netherlands and Scotland and Chad and Canada and China and...

...and, well, pretty much wherever Muslims believe their religion tells them to:

Qur'an, Sura 9:5 wrote:
Fight and slay the Unbelievers wherever ye find them. Seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war.
[/quote]

Laughing Laughing Laughing

If you'd like, I can provide you with a fairly accurate and detailed list of Date, City, how many killed or injured and a brief description. But keep in mind, there have been, as I said, over 5,800 of these attacks since 9/11/01, so the list may be rather long. Wink
S3nd K3ys
Quote:
Why not just agree that the US has killed and been responsible for the deaths of a large number of muslims and, by the same token, Muslims have killed a large number of people, some of who were US and other western citizens.


Almost forgot, sorry for the double post.

I do agree that the US killed a large number of muslims. But we didn't do it hiding behind their women and children for the sake of converting them to Christianity. And we don't parade thier bodies around the town square when we do kill them. And we don't saw off thier heads because we feel they deserve it. And... And... And... And...

Getting the picture yet? Shocked

Quote:
What I can do is give you a list of about 40 countries which the US has destabilised or invaded to change the political system and remove the government.


Governments that were largely rouge, terrorist, or murderors and threats to their neighbors and or our allies. Wink
Bikerman
S3nd K3ys wrote:
My dictionary says Jihad =
1. a holy war undertaken as a sacred duty by Muslims.
2. any vigorous, emotional crusade for an idea or principle.

Yep - note the wording it never mentions conversion. Quite right.
The US would use a different word for it's actions. Since its George Bush the word woud probably be Democritification

It's all the same - justifying the unjustifiable. One by extreme members of a religion and one by extreme leaders of a government.
:shock:

Bikerman wrote:

No I can't. Can you name a country the Muslims have invaded to convert them to Islam ?
Quote:


I honestly didn't think you'd take the bait!

Muslims have taken military action in the name of Islam (or attempted to and been thwarted) in Iraq and India and the Sudan and Algeria and Afghanistan and New York and Pakistan and Israel and Russia and Chechnya and the Philippines and Indonesia and Nigeria and England and Thailand and Spain and Egypt and Bangladesh and Saudi Arabia and Ingushetia and Dagestan and Turkey and Kabardino-Balkaria and Morocco and Yemen and Lebanon and France and Uzbekistan and Gaza and Tunisia and Kosovo and Bosnia and Mauritania and Kenya and Eritrea and Syria and Somalia and California and Kuwait and Virginia and Ethiopia and Iran and Jordan and United Arab Emirates and Louisiana and Texas and Tanzania and Germany and Pennsylvania and Belgium and Denmark and East Timor and Qatar and Maryland and Tajikistan and the Netherlands and Scotland and Chad and Canada and China and...


So then no, you can't name any. Non of those are attempted conversion of a country.
You might just as well say :
There were just over 1 million attempted civil wars in the US last year.
The correct phrase would be Gun Crimes.
Quote:

...and, well, pretty much wherever Muslims believe their religion tells them to:

Qur'an, Sura 9:5 wrote:
Fight and slay the Unbelievers wherever ye find them. Seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

If you'd like, I can provide you with a fairly accurate and detailed list of Date, City, how many killed or injured and a brief description. But keep in mind, there have been, as I said, over 5,800 of these attacks since 9/11/01, so the list may be rather long. :wink:


Don't let's go there because I'd have to start adding up the other side and I can assure you that you will not get anywhere near.
The sanctions deaths alone would more than cover it.

I don't, however, want do that because it doesn't really show anything I've not already said - viz The US has killed a lot of muslims and muslims have killed a lot of people including westerners.

xC
S3nd K3ys
Bikerman wrote:
S3nd K3ys wrote:
My dictionary says Jihad =
1. a holy war undertaken as a sacred duty by Muslims.
2. any vigorous, emotional crusade for an idea or principle.

Yep - note the wording it never mentions conversion. Quite right.


Perhaps you missed the 'holy war' part?? The US doesn't partake in religious wars, we believe you have the right to (peacefully) worship as you please. Too bad you can't say the same for Islam.

Quote:
It's all the same - justifying the unjustifiable. One by extreme members of a religion and one by extreme leaders of a government.


I can see, if you support terrorism, how this could seem to be true for you. Not so if you desire freedom.

Quote:
Don't let's go there


Oh, please, lets DO break down who attacks whom for what. Seriously. (You start, I'm off for sleep)

Quote:

I don't, however, want do that because it doesn't really show anything I've not already said - viz The US has killed a lot of muslims and muslims have killed a lot of people including westerners.


Why have muslims killed a lot of people? Largly because those people not submitting to Islam? Rolling Eyes

Why have Americans killed a lot of muslims? Becasue we want to convert them to Christianity?
Bikerman
S3nd K3ys wrote:

Almost forgot, sorry for the double post.

No prob.
Quote:

I do agree that the US killed a large number of muslims. But we didn't do it hiding behind their women and children for the sake of converting them to Christianity. And we don't parade thier bodies around the town square when we do kill them. And we don't saw off thier heads because we feel they deserve it. And... And... And... And...

The US has paraded bodies and prisoners on TV in direct contravention of the Geneva convention. Remember Zakawi ? Saddam ?
You don't chop their heads off with a sword, no, you use BLU-Daisy cutters, GBU Bunker Busters and GBU JDAMs - does the same job.
You also add a nice twist with the torture and humiliation your prisoners sexually and religiously.

Be careful when trying to climb the high moral ground..the ground is very slippy from all the blood.
Quote:

Getting the picture yet? :shock:

Not really..

Quote:
What I can do is give you a list of about 40 countries which the US has destabilised or invaded to change the political system and remove the government.

Governments that were largely rouge, terrorist, or murderors and threats to their neighbors and or our allies. :wink:


As if the US has some divine right to go around the world deciding if elected governments meet their standards - especially ironic from a country led by a man who stole an election himself. You'll actually find quite a few countries on the list who were democratic, popular and with a better human rights record that the US.

xChris
S3nd K3ys
Bikerman wrote:

The US has paraded bodies and prisoners on TV in direct contravention of the Geneva convention. Remember Zakawi ? Saddam ?

You also add a nice twist with the torture and humiliation your prisoners sexually and religiously.


Check my other thread in Discuss World News about us using torture.

Quote:
Quote:

Getting the picture yet? Shocked

Not really..


Obviously. Wink

Quote:
As if the US has some divine right to go around the world deciding if elected governments meet their standards


Allow people to choose their own leaders, worship thier own God, and be physically safe from said leaders and civilly equal in the eyes if their peers and their leaders.

Yeah, we're so terrible arent' we?
nopaniers
If that's what the US is trying to do, something obviously went extremely wrong somewhere. To quote from a blog written by a young Iraqi woman:

Quote:
For me, June marked the first month I don’t dare leave the house without a hijab, or headscarf. I don’t wear a hijab usually, but it’s no longer possible to drive around Baghdad without one. It’s just not a good idea. (Take note that when I say ‘drive’ I actually mean ‘sit in the back seat of the car’- I haven’t driven for the longest time.) Going around bare-headed in a car or in the street also puts the family members with you in danger. You risk hearing something you don’t want to hear and then the father or the brother or cousin or uncle can’t just sit by and let it happen. I haven’t driven for the longest time. If you’re a female, you risk being attacked.

I look at my older clothes- the jeans and t-shirts and colorful skirts- and it’s like I’m studying a wardrobe from another country, another lifetime. There was a time, a couple of years ago, when you could more or less wear what you wanted if you weren’t going to a public place. If you were going to a friends or relatives house, you could wear trousers and a shirt, or jeans, something you wouldn’t ordinarily wear. We don’t do that anymore because there’s always that risk of getting stopped in the car and checked by one militia or another.

There are no laws that say we have to wear a hijab (yet), but there are the men in head-to-toe black and the turbans, the extremists and fanatics who were liberated by the occupation, and at some point, you tire of the defiance. You no longer want to be seen. I feel like the black or white scarf I fling haphazardly on my head as I walk out the door makes me invisible to a certain degree- it’s easier to blend in with the masses shrouded in black. If you’re a female, you don’t want the attention- you don’t want it from Iraqi police, you don’t want it from the black-clad militia man, you don’t want it from the American soldier. You don’t want to be noticed or seen.

I have nothing against the hijab, of course, as long as it is being worn by choice. Many of my relatives and friends wear a headscarf. Most of them began wearing it after the war. It started out as a way to avoid trouble and undue attention, and now they just keep it on because it makes no sense to take it off. What is happening to the country?

I realized how common it had become only in mid-July when M., a childhood friend, came to say goodbye before leaving the country. She walked into the house, complaining of the heat and the roads, her brother following closely behind. It took me to the end of the visit for the peculiarity of the situation to hit me. She was getting ready to leave before the sun set, and she picked up the beige headscarf folded neatly by her side. As she told me about one of her neighbors being shot, she opened up the scarf with a flourish, set it on her head like a pro, and pinned it snuggly under her chin with the precision of a seasoned hijab-wearer. All this without a mirror- like she had done it a hundred times over… Which would be fine, except that M. is Christian.

If M. can wear one quietly- so can I.

http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/
simp
Religion of Peace?

Uh, that would be Buddhism . . .
nopaniers
simp wrote:
Uh, that would be Buddhism . . .


Japan, for example, is 84% Buddhist and would never start a war like WW2.
S3nd K3ys
simp wrote:
Religion of Peace?

Uh, that would be Buddhism . . .


Uh, that would be an ignorant, un-informed statement. Uhh. Wink
Bikerman
S3nd K3ys wrote:

Allow people to choose their own leaders, worship thier own God, and be physically safe from said leaders and civilly equal in the eyes if their peers and their leaders.

Yeah, we're so terrible arent' we?


The US does not behave in this way, however, which is where it all falls apart.
The US has consistently invaded or undermined any country which either challenges, or looks like it might, US corporate world market positions. Whilst this is not quite religious in nature it is very close in reality. Democratic Capitalism is the banner used, but if the two conflict then the second is the important one.
The scorecard reads as follows: From 1945 to the end of thecentury, the United States attempted to overthrow more than 40 foreign governments, and to crush more than 30 populist-nationalist movements struggling against intolerable regimes. In the process, the US caused the end of life for several million people, and condemned many millions more to a life of agony and despair.

Talk of bringing democracy to the world is contradicted by the facts and a complete red herring for those who want to really understand the issues.

US foreign policy is best understood as the resultant of 4 imperatives :
1) making the world open and hospitable for—in current terminology—globalization, particularly American-based transnational corporations
2) enhancing the financial statements of defense contractors at home who have contributed generously to members of Congress and residents of the White House
3) preventing the rise of any society that might serve as a successful example of an alternative to the capitalist model
4) extending political, economic and military hegemony over as much of the globe aspossible, to prevent the rise of any regional power that might challenge American supremacy, and to create a world order in America's image, as befits the world's only superpower.


Once this is understood then things make much more sense.

Regards
Chris
Soulfire
Look at what the NYTimes posted today!




Harsh...
Bikerman
Well I don't want to be dragged into the role of chief apologist for Islam in general - since I'm a confirmed atheist that would be a bit much :-) It is worth pointing out, though, that freedom of expression also includes the freedom NOT to be offensive and although I would defend free speech on principle, examples like the Danish cartoons seem designed only to inflame and I do not like the confrontational position this forces. The simple fact is that most muslims are like most christians - they get on with their life as best they can. There are a small number of extremists on both sides who have fundamentalist views which inevitably lead to conflict.
If I know that I am right then, by definition, you are wrong..end of argument, start of fighting.
My point all through has been that the US behaves in exactly the way we are being encouraged to believe Muslim states do and that this polarisation is largely artificial and very dangerous...

Chris.
S3nd K3ys
http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topics/article.asp?cu_no=2&item_no=108758&version=1&template_id=45&parent_id=25

Quote:
Indonesian TV shows that feature scantily dressed women are more dangerous than bombs, a militant Muslim cleric who served a jail term for links to the Bali bombings was quoted as saying yesterday.


Hrrmmm, tough choice... nekked womenz or idgits hiding bombs up their ass?

Ahh, but wait...

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0638,hentoff,74473,6.html%22

Quote:
The capital crime of adultery, Mazahery has explained to World Net Daily, "includes [under Shariah law] any type of intimate relationship between a girl/woman and a man to whom she is not permanently or temporarily married. Such a relationship does not necessarily mean a sexual relationship.

"Further, charges of adultery are routinely issued to women/girls who have been raped—and they are sentenced to death." (Their unpardonable crime is to have been raped.)
selim06
It's just a silly topic...
Do you think I will exterminate every non-muslim person when I got 18 years old?Everybody has his/her own opinion like this person.So some of documents you've used are correct.I accept that adult Muslims will attack!
But your sources are deficient...If a non-Muslim person attacks you have the right to attack him....
So can't you see that you are helping Muslims to spread Islam?Now,by the articles Islam is beign recognized for everybody!People read this type of article and get an opinion(either true or not)...And if it isn't true the person searchs for truths.So he will understand Islam's principals.So he will adopt them if he exemine it logically!
Like this:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wpdyn/content/article/2006/09/21/AR2006092101975.html
So you can continue flamming on Islam if you want it's spreading...
S3nd K3ys
Recent news articles involving 'The Religion of Peace"

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1157913680684&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
Bangladeshi Editor Faces Death Penalty for Moderate Muslim Views...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=406525&in_page_id=1811
'If I Get Hold of the Pope, I Will Hang Him'...

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/766295.html
Norway: Police Foil Muslim Plot to Behead Jewish Ambassador...

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/09/22/asia/AS_GEN_Afghan_Attack.php
Religious Extremists Massacre 19 Laborers in Afghanistan...

http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2006/09/23/hezbollah_rearmed_nasrallah_tells_rally/
Hesbollah's Nasrallah proclaims "No army in the world will be able to make us drop the weapons from our hands!"
S3nd K3ys
selim06 wrote:

If a non-Muslim person attacks you have the right to attack him....


Yeah, beating someone over the brain with a cartoon of their so-called peaceful prophet (who raped and murdered in the name of Islam) is a good reason to attack them... Rolling Eyes
ahamed
CNSNews wrote:


Muslim Cleric Says Killing Unbelievers Is 'Okay'
By Mark Mayne
CNSNews.com Correspondent
January 13, 2006

London (CNSNews.com) - The prosecution in the U.K. trial of Muslim cleric Abu Hamza al-Masri said Friday he preached that killing non-Muslims was justified, even if there was no reason for it.

"Killing an adulterer, even if he is a Muslim is okay. Killing a Kaffir (infidel) who is fighting you is okay. Killing a Kaffir for any reason you can say it is okay even if there is no reason for it," the jury heard Hamza say in a video of his September 1999 sermon, entitled "Adherence to Islam in the Western World."
[/quote]

This is not what islam says. Definately what he say is totlay wrong in terms of islam and the holy quran. Every people has his rights about religion and islam permits it. Islam does not depend on a single man says. What quran says that's the true islam.
selim06
S3nd K3ys wrote:
selim06 wrote:

If a non-Muslim person attacks you have the right to attack him....


Yeah, beating someone over the brain with a cartoon of their so-called peaceful prophet (who raped and murdered in the name of Islam) is a good reason to attack them... Rolling Eyes

I really wonder why you're still trying to defend your mistakes...Do you belive 1,5 billion people can't kill a writer(the cartoons)?Islam doesn't supports it that's the truth,it's not about your belief...
doomz
ahamed wrote:
CNSNews wrote:


Muslim Cleric Says Killing Unbelievers Is 'Okay'
By Mark Mayne
CNSNews.com Correspondent
January 13, 2006

London (CNSNews.com) - The prosecution in the U.K. trial of Muslim cleric Abu Hamza al-Masri said Friday he preached that killing non-Muslims was justified, even if there was no reason for it.

"Killing an adulterer, even if he is a Muslim is okay. Killing a Kaffir (infidel) who is fighting you is okay. Killing a Kaffir for any reason you can say it is okay even if there is no reason for it," the jury heard Hamza say in a video of his September 1999 sermon, entitled "Adherence to Islam in the Western World."


This is not what islam says. Definately what he say is totlay wrong in terms of islam and the holy quran. Every people has his rights about religion and islam permits it. Islam does not depend on a single man says. What quran says that's the true islam.[/quote]

yes this is what Islam teach to his follower.

I watched a live TV show which take scene on Ka'bah (directly) at Saturday night 23 Sep '06. In Malaysia's TV. the event (I guess) is for openning to Ramadhan month Praying (maybe called "Sholat Adzhan", I'm not sure). there is a 'english' translation on subtitile of their praying word with a very huge loudspeaker. which some on praying text include

basically Killing unbeliever is OK. die for Allah is very Ok
the 'unbeliever' mean those who don't believe in Allah's way (Islam).

why?

in the praying said because Allah know what you know not.
so it mean die is good when die for HIM.

and some other thing they compare good and bad by taking the object 'Israel' as the bad in the comparison.




though this is not a make the follower directly to be a mudderer, this has already give/teach a 'mind' of killing SLOWLY!! day by day.
S3nd K3ys
Recent news articles involving the 'Religion of Peace"

http://www.currentargus.com/ci_4387514
Ramadan Bomb Targets Women, Children - 3 Dozen Dead...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uklatest/story/0,,-6101307,00.html
1 in 10 British Muslims Would Not Expose Terror Plot...

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/articlenews.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2006-09-24T103634Z_01_SP272973_RTRUKOC_0_UK-INDIA-PAKISTAN-INFILTRATORS.xml&archived=False
Pakistani Mujahideen Still Crossing the Border to Spread 'Peace' in India...

There's a a lot of news this weekend about how the UK is appeasing terrorists.
JoeFriday
Bikerman wrote:
Well I don't want to be dragged into the role of chief apologist for Islam in general - since I'm a confirmed atheist that would be a bit much Smile It is worth pointing out, though, that freedom of expression also includes the freedom NOT to be offensive and although I would defend free speech on principle, examples like the Danish cartoons seem designed only to inflame and I do not like the confrontational position this forces. The simple fact is that most muslims are like most christians - they get on with their life as best they can. There are a small number of extremists on both sides who have fundamentalist views which inevitably lead to conflict.
If I know that I am right then, by definition, you are wrong..end of argument, start of fighting.
My point all through has been that the US behaves in exactly the way we are being encouraged to believe Muslim states do and that this polarisation is largely artificial and very dangerous...

Chris.


exactly.. that is why you always see christians rioting in the streets when nuns in Somalia are killed Rolling Eyes

and who can forget how christians rejoiced when the tsunami hit thailand and killed so many muslims Rolling Eyes

oh wait.. that was when we sent BILLIONS of our dollars to help the survivors

yeah, the US is such an evil imperialist nation.. that's why we never allow muslims to live within our own borders, much less set up mosques and campus organizations on universities.. nope, that would never happen in our oppressive society
S3nd K3ys
JoeFriday wrote:
Bikerman wrote:
Well I don't want to be dragged into the role of chief apologist for Islam in general - since I'm a confirmed atheist that would be a bit much Smile It is worth pointing out, though, that freedom of expression also includes the freedom NOT to be offensive and although I would defend free speech on principle, examples like the Danish cartoons seem designed only to inflame and I do not like the confrontational position this forces. The simple fact is that most muslims are like most christians - they get on with their life as best they can. There are a small number of extremists on both sides who have fundamentalist views which inevitably lead to conflict.
If I know that I am right then, by definition, you are wrong..end of argument, start of fighting.
My point all through has been that the US behaves in exactly the way we are being encouraged to believe Muslim states do and that this polarisation is largely artificial and very dangerous...

Chris.


exactly.. that is why you always see christians rioting in the streets when nuns in Somalia are killed Rolling Eyes

and who can forget how christians rejoiced when the tsunami hit thailand and killed so many muslims Rolling Eyes

oh wait.. that was when we sent BILLIONS of our dollars to help the survivors


And much of that came from, you guessed it, CITIZENS. Not the
government, though they did chip in quite a lot. Wink The US is always
the first to help just about ANY country in those situations.


Quote:
yeah, the US is such an evil imperialist nation.. that's why we never allow muslims to live within our own borders, much less set up mosques and campus organizations on universities.. nope, that would never happen in our oppressive society


In case you don't know, JoeFriday is being sarcastic, as we have a HUGE
population of Muslims here, free to practice their own religion as they
see fit
. Free to do as any other religion is allowed to do here.


How many "Muslim" or "Islamic" countries can say that? You know why?
Becuase they're PEACEFUL & TOLERANT.... Rolling Eyes
Bikerman
JoeFriday wrote:

yeah, the US is such an evil imperialist nation.. that's why we never allow muslims to live within our own borders, much less set up mosques and campus organizations on universities.. nope, that would never happen in our oppressive society


I said that the US indulges in the same behaviour it condemns. The US is undoubtedly one of the most free countries in the world - no argument from the there. My comments were addressed to US Foreign Policy.
S3nd K3ys
Recent news articles involving the 'Religion of Peace"

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-3-2374550-3,00.html
Daniel Pearl's Body had Been Found in Ten Pieces...

http://clarityandresolve.com/archives/2006/09/while_were_hand.php
Spain's Ex-President: When Will Islam Apologize for Occupation?

http://www.israelnn.com/news.php3?id=112402
Palestinian Gunmen Use Babies, Small Boys as Human Shields...

http://www.dawn.com/2006/09/24/nat14.htm
12-Year-Old Girl 'Honor-Stripped' in Public...

http://www.sudantribune.com/spip.php?article17798
Somali Islamists Take Port City, Kill 13-Year-Old Protester...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5376968.stm
Assassination Proves the Taliban Still Waging War on Women...

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/09/25/MNGLCLC58Q1.DTL
Foreign Jihadists Making Life Miserable for Peaceful Afghanis...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060924/ap_on_re_eu/pope_slain_nun;_ylt=Aja6rCpSHBT42HF30dviZLp0bBAF;_ylu=X3oDMTBjMHVqMTQ4BHNlYwN5bnN1YmNhdA--
Pope Lauds Italian Nun Killed in Somalia for Pardoning Killers as She Lay Dying...

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=3&art_id=qw1159186862993B225
Policewoman Killed by Kashmir Jihadis...
Bikerman
OK. I still see no point in posting individual articles as if to emphasise how nasty something is from specific instances.
It doesn't work like that.
I could post nearly 1 million reports of gun crime in the US over the 2003-2004 period. What does it prove? That the US is a gun crazy hell-hole ? No, I wouldn't claim that.

Likewise I could post up tens, probably hundreds of Catholic stories from Irish, English and US sources where priests have molested young children and got away with it for years. Does that show that Catholics tend to be child molesters ? No, neither would I make that claim.

However, repetition of this sort of stuff obviously convinces some people at least. How else can we explain that a large number of Americans believe that Iraq had something to do with 9/11 and that it was a terrorist state before the invasion? Both claims never were, have been or will be true. It was Bushes attempt to link Iraq to 9/11 but it failed for the simple reason that there IS no linkage.

So in order to balance the books I've prepared a few slides on some of the opposing sides in this dispute. The last post is a general Muslim smearing. The first article is an old one. The second one is an academic dispute over the origin of Moorish property rights from the middle ages, the third one is from an Israeli tabloid newspaper so should be treated with caution, the fourth is a rather innocuous story about a mother punishing a child over zealously (you can chose from 2 similar stories about 'chistian' mothers in the tabloids over the last 2 days in the UK). The rest are either to do with the Somali civil war or the Taliban in Afghqanistan - neither of which I will defend because I am opposed to both, but neither of which is either representative or in any way typical of muslim countries or muslim behaviours.
As my response today, I'll start with one of the key issues in the whole disputed mess. I'll look at Israel and the Palestinians - what the problem is, how it is manifest, the losses and actions of both sides and why people are so angry about this issue.

These presentations are all on my own site (simply for ease of access) and are prepared by myself from a variety of reference sources, including-
a) Palestine Monitor....................................................b) Palestinian Red Crescent
c) A site called ifamericansknew - largely for some of the graphics files which are free to use.
d) The website of the Israeli Defence Forces................ e) US congress reports


Whilst I cannot say there are no errors in the slides, I can say that the stats are all checked against the best data I can get (be it Israeli or US) and that I have honestly attempted to ensure that there is no bias or distortion in the figures or graphs. I have also avoided emotive language and stuck to a fairly dry and factual commentary.

These 7 pages will show a comparison between the Palestinians and the Israelis in terms of daeths, injuries, the land question, the UN, US aid and funding and other measures. You can then decide for yourself whether the Palestinians are a bunch of terrorists and whether Israel is in fear of being wiped out.

1....Deaths and Injuries on both sides
2....Details about the 3 thousand plus palestinian deaths since 2000
3....Levels of US assistance to Israel
4...All the UN resolutions on the conflict
5...Prinsoner numbers on both sides.
6...The policy of demolition which Israel carries out...what it is and how it works
7...The disputed land and what is happening
S3nd K3ys
Recent news articles involving the 'Religion of Peace and Tolerance."

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52167
Sheik: Only Acceptable 'Dialogue' is Conversion to Islam...

http://memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD130206
Iranian TV Slams 'Pirates of the Caribbean' as Zionist Propaganda

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3308451,00.html
Palestinian Media: Pope is a 'Stupid Criminal'...

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1159193322341&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
57% of Palestinians Support Attacks Against Civilians in Israel

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=407055&in_page_id=1770
UK: Islamist Heckler Seeks 3 Additional Wives...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5380054.stm
UN Concludes Hariri was Killed by Islamic Suicide Bomber...

http://www.asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=7321
Chaldean Churches Attacked...

http://english.people.com.cn/200609/26/eng20060926_306554.html
Taliban Extremists Kill 20 Innocents in Two Attacks...

Islamic terrorists have made more than 5,939 deadly attacks since 9/11.
Bikerman
S3nd K3ys wrote:

Islamic terrorists have made more than 5,939 deadly attacks since 9/11.


Without a source on that I'll have to assume it is conjecture...have you settled on a definition of terrorist yet ? Personally I think the one from your FBI is a good all rounder which we could possibly agree on :
Quote:

The FBI defines terrorism as "the unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives.


Is that one you can agree on ?

Chris
S3nd K3ys
Iraqi civilians killed this year by ISLAMIC Terrorists
9,175

Iraqi civilians killed collaterally by Americans
60

Source: IraqBodyCount.net

(Just for clarification on the number of deaths in Iraq.) Wink
Bikerman
S3nd K3ys wrote:
Iraqi civilians killed this year by ISLAMIC Terrorists
9,175

Iraqi civilians killed collaterally by Americans
60

Source: IraqBodyCount.net

(Just for clarification on the number of deaths in Iraq.) Wink


Having spent a few minutes on the bodycount site I can see no mention of those stats anywhere. Could you give me the link to the page please..

ta
Chris

PS I'm not sure how useful it is to split the figures because
a) Anti-occupation deaths are still the direct responsibility of the US/UK since they result from the breakdown of law and order which is a direct consequence of the invasion. A look at the mortality rates pre-invasion soon prove that.
b) The US figures are, by their own admission, next to useless. The US and UK do not keep records on casualties so they have no real clue how many they have killed. That is one main reason that the bodycount site was created in the first place.

Chris
S3nd K3ys
Bikerman wrote:


Having spent a few minutes on the bodycount site I can see no mention of those stats anywhere. Could you give me the link to the page please..


Of course you can't find it, they don't tell you. That site is trying to hide the
facts when it comes to who is killing whom in Iraq. I'm suprised you missed
that.

You'll have to do the research and math yourself. Wink

Quote:
PS I'm not sure how useful it is to split the figures because


Oh, right... because nobody died there before we invaded, err, wait... oh, yes
they did... by the hundreds of thousands. Rolling Eyes
Bikerman
S3nd K3ys wrote:

Of course you can't find it, they don't tell you. That site is trying to hide the
facts when it comes to who is killing whom in Iraq. I'm suprised you missed
that.
You'll have to do the research and math yourself. Wink

The site is doing exactly what it was designed setup and stated to do. It is you that seems to think that you know who is killing who.
Since you quoted the site as source for the figures and since the site does not have those figures then the only conclusion I can draw is that they are either a guess, taken from a less reliable site, or an attempt to mislead. I don't know which but it is bad form to quote a reference when the figures are not from that reference.
There is no math than I can do which will split the figures as you have done since the source information is not present on the site. Incidentally the bodycount site is very reliable and, you will notice, quotes times and places where possible.

Quote:
PS I'm not sure how useful it is to split the figures because


Oh, right... because nobody died there before we invaded, err, wait... oh, yes
they did... by the hundreds of thousands. Rolling Eyes[/quote]

Is that another accurate figure from a referenced website then ?

Chris
S3nd K3ys
I'm not going to do your homework. If you want the truth, spend some
time on IBC and see how much real info they're giving you and how much
they're hiding.

IBC was created (before the Iraq war even started, BTW), for one
purpose: to document each and every victim of US aggression in order to
turn public opinion against the action to remove Saddam (let's just say
they aren't too concerned about the hundreds of mass graves unearthed
from the Ba'athist era). But when people started realizing that the US was
literally taking casualties to prevent casualties on the part of Iraqi civilians,
IBC quietly started adding casualties to the count that included those
trying to stop the terrorists, including members of the Iraqi forces,
who are part of the coalition. Including hundreds of victims that died in a
stampede on August 31,2005, which the US, Iraqis and even terrorists
were nowhere near. And when you go and look at the tables they have
with the body counts, you'll notice something missing; The party
responsible for the attack.

So do your homework. IBC is counting all casualties and lumping them as
being the responsibility of the US. Just like you're doing.

Bikerman wrote:

S3nd K3ys wrote:
Oh, right... because nobody died there before we invaded, err, wait... oh, yes
they did... by the hundreds of thousands. Rolling Eyes


Is that another accurate figure from a referenced website then ?

Chris


Is that another attempt at denial? You're very good at it. Are you saying
Sadam didn't kill the 600,000 kurds? Are you saying terrorists are not
killing Iraqi civilians by the hundreds every day in Iraq?


Ignoring the truth may make it go away for YOU, but those around you can
still see it.
Bikerman
I've denied nothing at any stage that I am aware of. I have merely asked you to provide sources for your data because you are claiming specific things - like hundreds of thousands of people dying before the invasion. The estimates are actually much higher - as much as 1.5 million. These, however, were not killed (directly at least) by Saddam, but by the effects of the sanctions regime. How do you arrive at your figure for hundreds of thousands ? Even more astonishingly, how do you know that 600,000 Kurds were killed ? Did you just make it up ?

The gas attack on Halabja, for example, has casualty estimates from none at all to about 5 thousand. For some reason, competely overlooked, is that in 1988 when the majority (including Halabja) of the towns were supposedly raised to the ground, was also an intense period in the Iran Iraq war. Several serious people have suggested that Halabja and other towns were certainly gassed by the Iranians and almost as certainly not gassed by the Iraqis - I'll come to this in a while.

Let's dig a bit more then....
You claim 600,000. I can't even find where that could possibly have come from and I suspect it is either a guess or a composite figure from several sources. In either case it is completely ridiculous and not worthy of further consideration.
The major proponent of the 'huge numbers' argument is Human Rights Watch who announced the attrocities to start with. They claim up to 100,000 but admit that this is based on no real evidence. Their figure for Halabja is 3200-5000 dead.
I have no problem with HRW and I don't know if they are right or wrong in this. But there are certainly reasons to doubt it. Only 25 bodies were ever produced and most of those had gunshot wounds. Also there are technical issues with the poison and timeline issues with the whole sceenario. By far the most important reason for doubt, however, is the report by a Prof S.Pelletiere in which he claims that HRW have got it wrong.
OK so who is Pelletiere ? Well that is the thing. Pelletiere was (at the time-1988) the Central Intelligence Agency's senior political analyst on Iraq. Also he headed a 1991 Army investigation and the classified version of the report went into great detail on the Halabja affair.
In other words this is a man who I would chose if I could ask anybody what happened since he is the man who's job it is to know.

So what does Pelletiere say then ? His conclusions are expressed in this New York Times article so you can read for yourself.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/31/opinion/31PELL.html?ex=1159502400&en=dc743eebdb7af1e5&ei=5070

Is he correct ? I don't know. What I am pretty sure about is that your figures are certainly not correct and cannot be taken seriously. That, for me, is a showstopper. Serious debate is only possible if there is transparancy. On the few occasions you have referenced any of the many figures you produce, the references turn out to be invalid. I, therefore, don't know what to believe and I end up doing twice the work - both compiling my own references then having to check yours.
That is no way to debate, and therefore I will leave you to it.

Regards
Chris
S3nd K3ys
Recent news articles involving the 'Religion of Peace and Tolerance."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/pakistan_pearl_killing;_ylt=At8xEQpqEDVUHNOiJrw6Mvis0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--
Pakistan: 9/11 Mastermind Involved in Daniel Pearl Killing...

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1384
Ramadan Rioting Continues in Belgium...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060928/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_not_disarming_hezbollah;_ylt=AhDMlqHFYKGwK5At.a9w9Lys0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3OTB1amhuBHNlYwNtdHM-
No Pressure on Hezbollah to Disarm, Free Hostages...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-3-2378381-3,00.html
German Muslim Leaders Grant Permission for Mozart Opera...

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20487781-1702,00.html
4 Buddhists Gunned Down in Thailand...

http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20060927-105452-6596r.htm
Taliban Strikes on U.S. Troops Triple after Signing of Truce with Pakistan...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060925/pl_afp/usiraqmilitarybases_060925083220
Talabani asks for long-term US military presence in Iraq
nopaniers
Do you really think that quoting from "The Brussels Journal", a blog (despite its decive name) is news? They are under investigation by the Belgian police for inciting racial hated (which is a crime under Beligian law). In fact, if you bothered to look elsewhere you'd see that this was a protest against the death in custody of a Morrocan man who was arrested, put in solitary confinement and given tranquilizers, where he died.

Of course, its a little bit funny you having a go at muslims, while there was yet another school shooting in your own country. A US man was arrested today after kidnapping a 3 year old girl in Pittsburgh. In California, a man was convicted of the murder of a prominent attorney's wife. In Colorado, a policeman who was brutally gunned down was burried. In San Antonio, the jails are so full of criminals that they have to put them in tents. In Charlotte, a man threw a todler out of a car window... and that's only the headlines right now. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

http://edition.cnn.com/US/
nopaniers
Okay. So let's do this in an organized fashion. We'll look at the murder rates around the world and see where they are highest.

Of the 62 countries listed on nationmaster the worst are:

#1 Colombia 0.617847 per 1,000 people
#2 South Africa 0.496008 per 1,000 people
#3 Jamaica 0.324196 per 1,000 people
#4 Venezuela 0.316138 per 1,000 people
#5 Russia 0.201534 per 1,000 people
#6 Mexico 0.130213 per 1,000 people
#7 Estonia 0.107277 per 1,000 people
#8 Latvia 0.10393 per 1,000 people
#9 Lithuania 0.102863 per 1,000 people
#10 Belarus 0.0983495 per 1,000 people
#11 Ukraine 0.094006 per 1,000 people
#12 Papua New Guinea 0.0838593 per 1,000 people
#13 Kyrgyzstan 0.0802565 per 1,000 people
#14 Thailand 0.0800798 per 1,000 people
#15 Moldova 0.0781145 per 1,000 people
#16 Zimbabwe 0.0749938 per 1,000 people
#17 Seychelles 0.0739025 per 1,000 people
#18 Zambia 0.070769 per 1,000 people
#19 Costa Rica 0.061006 per 1,000 people
#20 Poland 0.0562789 per 1,000 people
#21 Georgia 0.0511011 per 1,000 people
#22 Uruguay 0.045082 per 1,000 people
#23 Bulgaria 0.0445638 per 1,000 people
#24 United States 0.042802 per 1,000 people
#25 Armenia 0.0425746 per 1,000 people

Of muslim countries, the next are:

#50 Tunisia 0.0112159 per 1,000 people
#57 Indonesia 0.00910842 per 1,000 people
#61 Saudi Arabia 0.00397456 per 1,000 people
#62 Qatar 0.00115868 per 1,000 people

This hasn't included Iraq or Afghanistan which are both in a state of war.
S3nd K3ys
nopaniers wrote:
Do you really think that quoting from "The Brussels Journal", a blog (despite its decive name) is news?


Oh, look! He finally found something to possibly use to falsify what I've been posting. Laughing Laughing Laughing Too bad that's only one of dozens of sites I'm using. Will you try to discredit all of them? Of course not, you'll try to compare terror attacks with criminal murder. Shocked


<laughing at nopaniers removed by K3ys>


Tell you what, the next time a Christian hijacks a plane and rams it into a building killing thousands of innocents or straps a bomb to thier kid and sends him into a shopping center, I'll consider your rhetoric. Wink
S3nd K3ys
Recent news articles involving the 'Religion of Peace and Tolerance."

http://www.westernresistance.com/blog/archives/003069.html
Sex, Lies & Videotape: A Muslim Judge's Woes in the UK...

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52200
Church Burnings in Nigeria Result from Girl's Spurn of Muslim Boy...

http://www.yorkshiretoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=55&ArticleID=1796298
UK Muslims Warned Not to Drink 'Holy Water'...

http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2006/09/29/al_qaeda_in_iraq_beckons_nuclear_scientists/
al-Qaeda Recruits Nuclear Scientists for Allah...

http://www.cair-net.org/default.asp?Page=articleView&id=41098&theType=NB
CAIR Yet to Denounce Murder of Nun, But Takes Offense at Term 'Jihadist-Fascist'... Shocked

http://localnewsleader.com/jackson/stories/index.php?action=fullnews&id=10363
al-Qaeda: 4,000 Foreign 'Insurgents' Killed in Iraq...

:edit:

BTW, after re-reading my previous post, I'm sorry for laughing at you nopaniers, that was rude.
Bikerman
nopaniers wrote:
Do you really think that quoting from "The Brussels Journal", a blog (despite its decive name) is news?


Unfortunately the point, though valid, is probably wasted. I have stopped debating with S3ndK3ys in these theads because of the way in which miselading, unreliable, invented (and sometimes ludicrous) statistics keep cropping up the the posts.

I am not claiming to be perfect in this regard, but I would never make a figure up and falsely accredit it, or use numbers from obviously partial sources without at least a reference and comment on the source. That sort of thing really yanks my chain. I started posting on science boards years ago and learned good habbits from that - if your stats and other factual content have no references then they are assumed to be wrong as a matter of course, and anyone mis-referencing or distorting data would be asked to leave and not come back.

Regards
Chris
simp
Uh... again, the correct answer is Buddhism. Accept no subsitutes.
Bikerman
Hmm..I have read a bit on Buddhism and it has some attractions, to be sure.
The idea of Trsna in particular resonates with me. I like the way it teaches you that you are the solution to your own problem (of suffering) - there is no need to look for externalities like deities - and that, at a fundamental level, you ARE the problem. It is logical. The solution is equally logical - loose the self and loose the problem. That makes sense to me because at times when I'm doing something really well (not often and with me this is normally either riding the motorbike or playing around with music) there is a feeling which I imagine is a bit like nirvana. You loose the duality of you and the thing being done and loose the notion of wanting to do something. On the bike its almost like you loose all sensation but at the same time you are riding at a different level than normal. One those rare occasions it happens I arrive back with no real 'memory' of the ride but at the same time conscious that I have just ridden way better than normal and feeling completely relaxed. Some people call that the 'zone'. It chimes with my limited understanding of Zen in that you never get there if you set off trying to, it only ever happens when unlooked for. That's my handle on it, anyway, but I really must get around to finishing the Harvey book (Intro to Buddhism) I started reading a while ago.

Regards
Chris
S3nd K3ys
Recent news articles involving the 'Religion of Peace and Tolerance."

http://www.ndtv.com/morenews/showmorestory.asp?slug=Muslim+mob+stabs+Christian+in+Indonesia%0D&id=94064
'Moderate' Indonesia: Muslim Mob Drags Christian Man from Bus and Stabs Him...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/10/02/ntroops02.xml
Wounded Soldier Accosted by Muslim in British Hospital...

http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=26677
Syria: UN Can't Stop Weapons Flow to Hezbollah...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-2382919,00.html
Video Surfaces of Laughing 9/11 Hijackers at Osama's Camp...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=407795&in_page_id=1770
UK Promotes Muslim Teacher Suspended for 'Anti-Christmas' Tirade...

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1884833,00.html
Afghan Girls Risk Lives for Education...

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/2053790.cms
Musharraf Warns West: 'We Could Bring You to Your Knees'...

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/legal/article1772359.ece
Pakistan to Hang 'Twice-Cleared' British Citizen...

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-thaiterror1oct01,0,6389587.story?coll=la-story-footer
New Model for Islam? Thai Terrorists up Big Numbers with Small Attacks...

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/world/4226754.html
India: Pakistani Intelligence Behind Mumbai Blasts...

http://www.christiantoday.com/article/attacks.on.iraq.christians.intensify.as.extremists.call.for.more.violence.during.ramadan/7816.htm
Christian Cathedral Target of Last Sunday's Car Bombing - 2 Dead, Including Child...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-3-2380044-3,00.html
Taliban Boosted by Peace Deal with Pakistan...
JoeFriday
and don't miss this exciting episode regarding "The Religion Of Peace"(tm)

http://www.washtimes.com/world/20061001-124245-8896r.htm

Quote:
A French teacher hiding from Islamist death threats says he has been abandoned by the Education Ministry and has to arrange for his own safe houses when police bodyguards move him every two days.

Robert Redeker went underground after publishing an attack on Islam on Sept. 19, in which he called the Koran "a book of incredible violence" and Islam's prophet Muhammad "a merciless warlord, a looter, a butcher of Jews and a polygamist."
S3nd K3ys
Recent news articles involving the 'Religion of Peace and Tolerance." (Thanks, Joe. Wink )

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/10/03/MNG4ILH1201.DTL
Islamic Indoctrination to Continue in California Public Schools...

http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/news/state/minnesota/15662109.htm
CAIR 'Applauds' Minneapolis Radio Station's Apology for Satire

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-3-2385684-3,00.html
French Intellectuals Demand 'Help' for Peer in Hiding from Islamist Death Threats...

http://www.kuwaittimes.net/Navariednews.asp?dismode=article&artid=282578144
'Buddy Jesus' Pressed into Service by Shia Propagandists...

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=fa1c2a3c-8b04-4a36-8d38-beb5767a023f&k=97548
Ottawa Woman Gang-Raped by 4 Muslim Men...

http://www.gulfnews.com/region/Qatar/10071701.html
Qatari Women 'Outraged' Over Call for Polygamy...

http://www.onlinenews.com.pk/details.php?id=103128
Three Sisters Killed by Brother in Norway...

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,20508703-2,00.html
Southeast Asia Braces for 'Homegrown Jihadis' as New Converts Line Up for Jihad...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061003/ap_on_re_mi_ea/al_qaida_zarqawi;_ylt=Ar3EfYIZaTng_L86zKM1JO2s0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3OTB1amhuBHNlYwNtdHM-
Details of Letter Confirm al-Qaeda's Ties to al-Qaeda in Iraq...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-2-2385634-2,00.html
Saddam Had Murder of British Soldiers Filmed...

http://www.crosswalk.com/news/1430271.html
Lebanese-American Victim of Jihad Issues Challenge to Muslim-Americans...

http://www.adnki.com/index_2Level_English.php?cat=Security&loid=8.0.345664612&par=
Suicide Blast in Kabul Claims 3 Lives...
nopaniers
Is it alright, in these forums, to copy and paste from websites without quoting them? Is it alright to bump your own thread?

Is it alright to incite racial or religious hatred? Here in the United Kingdom where it is an offence to stir up hatred against people on racial or religious grounds. Parts of Europe (in particular Germany and France) have similar laws. Personally I find the deliberate attempt of the website you're posting from to stir up hatred against muslims offensive.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/bbc_parliament/4652669.stm

And while we're on the subject, it's illegal in the United States to send annoying electronic messages without using your real name.
http://news.com.com/Create+an+e-annoyance,+go+to+jail/2010-1028_3-6022491.html?part=rss&tag=6022491&subj=news
S3nd K3ys
Recent news articles involving the 'Religion of Peace and Tolerance."

http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=1283
Saudi Minister Promises to 'Cut Off Tongues' of Reformers...

http://www.riverinamediagroup.com.au/Home/news.asp?publication=The%20Daily%20Advertiser&articleType=Local&ArticleID=13500
Doctor Guilty of Drugging, Raping Patients Blames Anti-Muslim Bias

http://cbs3.com/topstories/topstories_story_277081749.html
Christian Neighborhood Bombed by Islamists in Iraq - 16 Dead...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=408440&in_page_id=1770&ico=Homepage&icl=TabModule&icc=NEWS&ct=5
UK: Tory Leaders Says 'Muslim Ghettos' Must be Broken Up...

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52264
NYC Memorial to Fallen 9/11 Hero Torn Down by Muslim Protester...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061003/ap_on_he_me/guantanamo_fat_detainees
Guantanamo Abuse Alert! Detainees Suffer Shrinking Cells, Tighter Uniforms...








On a lighter note...

of the articles posted above, one has an unusal twist... it actually is proof that Muslims are protesting Radical Islam...

S3nd K3ys wrote:

http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=1283
Saudi Minister Promises to 'Cut Off Tongues' of Reformers...

...We are being targeted from many directions. I say, with the utmost pain and sorrow, that we are being targeted by those who claim to be Muslims. These people have become preachers, instruments, and implementers of the will of the enemies of Islam, whether knowingly or unknowingly.



Wink
S3nd K3ys
Recent news articles involving the 'Religion of Peace and Tolerance."

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3311189,00.html
"Yaakov Lappin" says Iran's Top Mullah Warns Against Ramadan Masturbation... Shocked

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1887967,00.html
UK: Muslim Policeman Refuses to Guard Israeli Embassy...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/10/05/wmuslims05.xml
French Police Accuse Local Muslims of Undeclared 'Intifada'...

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=businessNews&storyID=2006-10-05T105421Z_01_SP13614_RTRUKOC_0_US-MARKETS-OIL.xml
OPEC Will Cut Oil Production to Hike Prices...

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=24686
Hezbollah Lovers Enjoy Life in the U.S., But Still Blog for Terror...

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/006026.htm
Will 'Bobblehead Muhammad' Fuel the Next Global Tantrum?... (You heard it here first Wink )

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/articlenews.aspx?storyid=2006-10-04T181800Z_01_JAK310648_RTRUKOC_0_UK-INDONESIA.xml&type=worldNews&WTmodLoc=World-C3-More-9
Indonesia Tries to Crack Down on Female Genital Mutilation...

http://www.westernresistance.com/blog/archives/003112.html
Thai Islamists Press the Jihad In Spite of Coup...
Muffi
Islam is the topic? wow i dont believe it, in a place where i got more then a 100 christian friends, a few hindu and alot of those who dont believe in any religon i must say that we never spoke about it, and we happily visit each others religious occasions in dubai, just like i attend xmas every year, and they join me at eid..

who say that there is anything perfect in this world? i must say if a MUSLIM do anything wrong, you people just say he is a muslim thats the exact reason why he did that.. that dont speaks it all in my view

and about the media, i dont really believe in those extremist comments.

if you guys wanna debate, debate about PEOPLE, try talking about those who did it not the religon..

Peace
S3nd K3ys
Recent news articles involving the 'Religion of Peace and Tolerance."

Sorry the list is so long today, I've been away for a couple days and this
kind of news builds up very VERY fast. I took the liberty of not posting a
few of the lesser articles I found so as not to overwhelm you.

http://www.kuna.net.kw/home/Story.aspx?Language=en&DSNO=910785
3-Year-Old Baby's Throat Slit by Terrorists in Iraq... Shocked

http://memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD131206
Website Offers Pointers on How to Raise Children as Terrorists... Wink

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061009/ap_on_re_mi_ea/saddam_trial;_ylt=AmPScK7cA1siOoh0ALngRXes0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3b2NibDltBHNlYwM3MTY-
Iraqi Govt. Buries Victims Alive! (never mind... it was Saddam)...

http://www.dailyexcelsior.com/web1/06oct09/news.htm#2
Father of Three Gruesomely Tortured, Beheaded...

http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061008/NEWS01/610080435/1008
Somali Immigrant Stabs Four Children to Death...

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-usclass12sep12,0,2685066.story?page=2&coll=la-home-headlines
Somali Immigrant Asks, 'If I Can't Beat My Wife, How Will She Know That I Love Her?'...

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2006/10/muslims_rioting.html
Ramadan Rioting in Sweden...

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3312455,00.html
'Unethical' Internet Cafe Burned Down by Islamists...

http://www.scandasia.com/viewNews.php?news_id=2745&coun_code=dk
Beer-Guzzling Muhammad Video Not Going Over Well In Indonesia

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1888848,00.html
'Half' of Iraq's Christians Forced to Flee Religion of Peace...

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/2114724.cms
Buddhist Man and Son Shot to Death by Muslim Terrorists...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/10/07/wquake07.xml
Earthquake Orphans Bred into Future Killers by Jihadis...

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2006460631,00.html
House for Soldiers Wrecked by Muslim Vandals in UK...

http://www.gulfnews.com/world/U.S.A/10072828.html
ACLU Helps Muslims Sue Their Way to U.S. Citizenship...

http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20061006-122334-1222r.htm
'Muslim-Only' Hospital Planned for the Netherlands...
Soulfire
So, any takers who want to try and discredit all of the sources? Is it not hyprocracy to claim your religion is of peace when you are birthing and harboring the vast majority of the world's terrorists?
Billy Hill
Soulfire wrote:
So, any takers who want to try and discredit all of the sources? Is it not hyprocracy to claim your religion is of peace when you are birthing and harboring the vast majority of the world's terrorists?


its funny you say that, because I was just starting to see a pattern... the more items that get posted, (and check the dates; these are recent ongoing events,) the less and less you see from those claiming it's not real. Shocked

Idea
S3nd K3ys
Billy Hill wrote:
Soulfire wrote:
So, any takers who want to try and discredit all of the sources? Is it not hyprocracy to claim your religion is of peace when you are birthing and harboring the vast majority of the world's terrorists?


its funny you say that, because I was just starting to see a pattern... the more items that get posted, (and check the dates; these are recent ongoing events,) the less and less you see from those claiming it's not real. Shocked

Idea


The exact reason I'm doing it. This shit happens daily. Nobody is willing to
see it. To accept it. It's pathetic the level of denial. When will the
true Religion of Peace speak out against these terrorists?

Or will they?
S3nd K3ys
Recent news articles involving the 'Religion of Peace and Tolerance."

http://www.gcbulletin.com.au/article/2006/10/11/1198_news.html
More Details on 'Muslim Ritual Killing' in Australia'...

http://www.westernresistance.com/blog/archives/003151.html
French Schoolgirl Attacked with Rocks for Eating During Ramadan

http://memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD131506
Activists Attempt to Stir Muslim Rage over Black Cube in NY...

http://newsbusters.org/node/8205
Ted Turner (owner of CNN) Can't Pick a Side in the War on Terror... (Just for you, nopaniers Wink )

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/10/10/061010102551.a5e98t10.html
Saddam 'Pimp' Slaps Court Bailiff Laughing

http://www.acctv.com.au/articledetail.asp?id=4708
Horrific Torture and Murder of Two Christian Children...

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52335
Oregon Public School Teaches 5 Pillars of Islam..

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3313321,00.html
18-Month Sentence for Sex in a Mosque...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061010/ts_nm/security_qaeda_libi_dc;_ylt=A0SOwj1E1StFuJkANwSs0NUE
Militant Preacher Urges Attacks on White House...
S3nd K3ys
Recent news articles involving the 'Religion of Peace and Tolerance."

http://www.aina.org/news/20061012004656.htm
Religion of Peace Crucifies 14-Year-Old Boy and Brutally Beheads Christian Priest...

http://allafrica.com/stories/200610110757.html
Somali Islamists Gag Press with '13 Rules'...

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/10/11/news/muslims.php
Doubts Rising in Europe Over Muslim Integration...

http://www.asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=7450
Christian Girls Favorite Target of Muslim Rapists in Iraq...

http://www.compassdirect.org/en/display.php?page=news&lang=en&length=long&idelement=4574
Nigerian Woman Sentenced to Stoning after Declining to Convert

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6039496.stm
Britain Pays Local Muslims to Behave Themselves... Shocked YGTBFKM!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/12/AR2006101200297.html
11 Slain by Muslim Gunmen at an Iraqi TV Station...

Url
U.S. Brings Treason Charges Against California-Born Convert to Islam...

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/10/10/D8KM6GL80.html
New Lancet 'Crock' Survey Claims 1 in 40 Iraqis have Died in 3 Years (without AP Knowing)...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061011/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraqi_death_toll
Islamic Terrorists Ring Up 2,660 Dead Iraqis in September!...

http://www.capitalnews9.com/content/top_stories/default.asp?ArID=194498
New York Mosque Leaders Found Guilty of Terrorism Charges...

http://www.mb.com.ph/MTNN2006101276810.html
Bomb Blasts in the Philippines Kill Eight...
S3nd K3ys
Recent news articles involving the 'Religion of Peace and Tolerance."

http://www.theconservativevoice.com/article/19181.html
CAIR's Man in Congress will Demand to be Sworn in on Qur'an

http://timblair.net/ee/index.php/weblog/please_consider/
Lancet's New 'Study' Clocks High BS Rating...

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1495
UK Schoolgirl Arrested for 'Racism' Toward Muslims... a must see!!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=410207&in_page_id=1770
Teacher Refused to Remove Veil for Students to Hear...

http://www.dawn.com/2006/10/04/nat25.htm
Woman Murdered for Opposing Husband's Plans for 2nd Wife...

http://onthescene.msnbc.com/baghdad/2006/10/no_jokes_allowe.html#posts
Baghdad Barber Loses Eyes Over Joke...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/10/13/ntags13.xml
New Anti-Terror Measure, Tagging Airline Passengers?...

http://hotair.com/archives/2006/10/12/time-exclusive-khaled-sheikh-mohammed-beheaded-daniel-pearl/
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed Confesses to Daniel Pearl Beheading...

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=1513242006
'Briton' Admits to Bomb Plot Against New York Stock Exchange...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/12/AR2006101200297.html
11 Slain by Muslim Gunmen at an Iraqi TV Station...
S3nd K3ys
Recent news articles involving the 'Religion of Peace and Tolerance."

Url
Child Bomber Used By Muslim Militants in Philippines... Shocked

Url
UK: Veil-Defending Govt. Cracks Down on Christian Symbols...

http://www.nysun.com/article/41582
Israel Warns of Nuclear Weapons Proliferation to Hezbollah...

http://www.ejpress.org/article/11102
Israeli Journalist Snubbed in Paris by Iran, Peers...

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Iraq/0,6119,2-10-1460_2013920,00.html
'Islamic State of Iraq' Declared by Mujahideen... (Orly?)

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=152636
1 in 5 Indonesians Support Jemaah Islamiah Terrorists...

http://mathaba.net/news/?x=544431
'Swimming Hijab' Said to 'Free' Muslim Women...

Url
Britain's Tories Allege 'Voluntary Apartheid' in Muslim Isolation...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=410439&in_page_id=1770
2012 Olympics Scheduled During Ramadan, Muslims Already Upset

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L15446550.htm
Recent Abu Sayyaf Bombing Campaign in the Philippines Fails to Amass Casualties...

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2006-10-15-iraq-violence_x.htm?POE=NEWISVA
Girl's Highschool Among Jihadi Targets in Iraq as Dozens More Killed by Jihadis...

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1922856,00.html
California 'Traitor' Had Hand in 7/7/ Bombing...

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/world/15756039.htm
Women and Children Picking Vegetable are Mowed Down by Sunni Jihadists...

http://www.thewest.com.au/default.aspx?MenuID=29&ContentID=9864
Thai Muslims Booby-Trap Severed Head...

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-iraq13oct13,1,2472289.story?coll=la-headlines-world
Violence Increases During Muslim 'Holy' Month of Fasting and Atonement...
noliver
Okay, I think its time for this thread to be laid to rest. It's tired. It's old. It's boring ... and its gone way beyond any usefulness.
-lock-
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