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land of the free uses torture





earthchild
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4524864.stm

and so the world let faith slip away even farther- faith in the land of the free. Once upon a time this great nation had inspired the oppressed people all around the world - for it broke free from oppression and guaranteed rights to all of its people, helping fellow humans to find their own voices.

now the tides had turned and this very same liberator had turned in on itself and the people of the world. human rights? bah! said the government men. freedom? no way. PROFITS! POWER! they cried - for the same disease that had once oppressed them (the rulers' and colonizers' greed) had now seeped into their bones and spread.

and so a collective tear the world did shed - for the fight for freedom and justice in it's highest form had come full circle to begin again.

(I think that pretty much represents a certain face of my opinion - maybe a tad dramatic... Wink )

what do people generally think? If you are not american what is your honest to goodness opinion? and if you are american do you think it is true - has our country completely sold out?
ocalhoun
Yes, the USA probably does abduct people on occasion, but this is just normal espionage.
The USA does not use torture. (besides isolated instances by twisted indiviuals with too much power)
Seriously, do you want to abolish the CIA or what?
S3nd K3ys
ocalhoun wrote:
Yes, the USA probably does abduct people on occasion, but this is just normal espionage.
The USA does not use torture. (besides isolated instances by twisted indiviuals with too much power)
Seriously, do you want to abolish the CIA or what?


Agreed. Lets just let the terrorists do what they want, when they want.
earthchild
there are a number of accusations of torture against the U.S. government.

if the government isn't committing torture, Why was vice president Dick Cheney trying so hard to prevent Congress from passing an anti-torture bill, with the president even threatening to veto it?

(yes that question sort of answers itself)
S3nd K3ys
Condi Rice wrote:
Speaking in Washington, she made no direct reference to European concerns about the secret CIA flights, but said the US would respect its own laws while recognising that the "war on terror" was a different kind of war.

She said that the US should do anything that was legal to prevent terrorist attacks.


Keep in mind that US laws about 'torture' differs from the UN's. Wink

Oh, BTW, perhaps if the terrorists would abide by the rules of war, they wouldn't be (supposedly) getting treated like the trash they are.
earthchild
S3nd K3ys wrote:
Condi Rice wrote:
Speaking in Washington, she made no direct reference to European concerns about the secret CIA flights, but said the US would respect its own laws while recognising that the "war on terror" was a different kind of war.

She said that the US should do anything that was legal to prevent terrorist attacks.


Keep in mind that US laws about 'torture' differs from the UN's. Wink

Oh, BTW, perhaps if the terrorists would abide by the rules of war, they wouldn't be (supposedly) getting treated like the trash they are.


hmmmm, yes, I think you may have caught the disease as well. gotta watchout for that greed... i tell you people, it goes hand in hand with hate and fear - breeds them very well actually.

but fear not there is an easy cure in case you ever want to look for it.
S3nd K3ys
earthchild wrote:
S3nd K3ys wrote:
Condi Rice wrote:
Speaking in Washington, she made no direct reference to European concerns about the secret CIA flights, but said the US would respect its own laws while recognising that the "war on terror" was a different kind of war.

She said that the US should do anything that was legal to prevent terrorist attacks.


Keep in mind that US laws about 'torture' differs from the UN's. Wink

Oh, BTW, perhaps if the terrorists would abide by the rules of war, they wouldn't be (supposedly) getting treated like the trash they are.


hmmmm, yes, I think you may have caught the disease as well. gotta watchout for that greed... i tell you people, it goes hand in hand with hate and fear - breeds them very well actually.

but fear not there is an easy cure in case you ever want to look for it.


Greed.

I spewed coke thru my nose on that one...
earthchild
hey if it makes you laugh that's a good thing I think Very Happy
S3nd K3ys
earthchild wrote:
hey if it makes you laugh that's a good thing I think Very Happy


I'm not laughing with you, I'm laughing at you.
earthchild
S3nd K3ys wrote:
earthchild wrote:
hey if it makes you laugh that's a good thing I think Very Happy


I'm not laughing with you, I'm laughing at you.


ummm, yes, I figured as much. and yet laughter is still good - though I must admit mean spirited comments kindof cut the benefits a little

but that's okay Wink I know your opinion of me is exactly that - yours
S3nd K3ys
As the major superpower in the world we make a LOT of foreign policy decisions that can and are routinely unpopular.

Political types from any country will agree foreign policy decisions are usually the lesser of two evils no matter how you look at them. (And one is usually a necessary evil.) For example, while the world and the UN want to get critical about our supposed interrogation tactics, France will routinely jail suspects indefinitely with the very real threat of incarcerating their whole family... Look it up, you may not have read it in the circle of news that is considered "world view" but it's the truth.

The world view also routinely ignores the truth about Islamic extremisim!!!

France has been finding this Islamic non-integration, single and narrow minded view out the hard way. And no matter what idiotic spin De Villepan puts on it or glosses over the situation it's easy for even the dumbest of "info-tainment" news junkies to figure out the real truth of the situation there.

IMNSHO, the war on terror might be a little more logically approached like life saving surgery for your kid. You don't want to be in the room or hear the grisly details when they are carving your kid open -but you sure as hell want them to save their life!

Same with the war on terror. Your ability to stomach the cold truth depend on proximity and perspective. Does Bill O'Reilly's hairspray and pancake make up somehow detract from the evil that bombed night clubs in Bali or the Subway in London?

The world view is a utopian, anti-American, diplomacy will avoid the inevitable, ho-hum attitude. The sh!ts been hitting the fan for us since '96. Of course we, (or at least the logic minded ones), have our best interests in mind. The rest of the world sure as hell don't -that's obvious, and always has been!

What I'm really trying to say is that if ANY other country, legitimately or not, are superior in news digestion and social practice, (and were truly confident of it), why the need to try to convince us otherwise? Congratulations! An epiphany awaits us. Let us find out the hard way and in the meantime try to remember our history as defenders of freedom!
LumberJack
S3nd K3ys wrote:
Condi Rice wrote:
Speaking in Washington, she made no direct reference to European concerns about the secret CIA flights, but said the US would respect its own laws while recognising that the "war on terror" was a different kind of war.

She said that the US should do anything that was legal to prevent terrorist attacks.


Keep in mind that US laws about 'torture' differs from the UN's. Wink

Oh, BTW, perhaps if the terrorists would abide by the rules of war, they wouldn't be (supposedly) getting treated like the trash they are.



I seem to recall during a certain World war some really bad concentration camps for suspected "Japanese" and other european communists...... hmmm... I am trying to remember their names... lets see....

United States, Canada, Britain....

US does what it wants... you shouldn't expect anything less... I mean, you do have a country running scared right now, so they tend to do irrational things...
GW_Addict
LumberJack wrote:
S3nd K3ys wrote:
Condi Rice wrote:
Speaking in Washington, she made no direct reference to European concerns about the secret CIA flights, but said the US would respect its own laws while recognising that the "war on terror" was a different kind of war.

She said that the US should do anything that was legal to prevent terrorist attacks.


Keep in mind that US laws about 'torture' differs from the UN's. :wink:

Oh, BTW, perhaps if the terrorists would abide by the rules of war, they wouldn't be (supposedly) getting treated like the trash they are.



I seem to recall during a certain World war some really bad concentration camps for suspected "Japanese" and other european communists...... hmmm... I am trying to remember their names... lets see....

United States, Canada, Britain....

US does what it wants... you shouldn't expect anything less... I mean, you do have a country running scared right now, so they tend to do irrational things...


It’s all about perspective.

What is punishment to one may be torture to another; and what is coercion to one may also be torture to another.

One example is the police departments. Some of the things they do to 'loosen" a criminal up could easily be seen as torture (and I am not saying they are not - just pointing out the varied perspectives here.) They may deprive the suspect of food for a time, and then offer him a large meal.

By far the most popular is sleep deprivation. Police will often work in shifts to keep 'pushing' a suspect for information for days. And for those of you who may not know, with enough sleep deprivation you will say anything (your brain goes to mush with no sleep.)

But these things are necessary - to a point – in order to maintain, well, order. Anyone who thinks that there should be no “torture" in the world in some form or another are the same ones who think world peace is a possibility.

That said these necessities can easily be taken to an extreme that is not justifiable.
GW_Addict
It is ironic that you can so simply state that it has "nothing to do with perspective" and then proceed to offer your highly subjective 'perspective'. You have just proven how much a person’s point of view can differ on subjects such as this.

It also again proves my point that there will never be a global consensus on things like this because nobody will ever have the same point of view.

What I find particularly amusing is that you are so quick to condemn an argument I present that is not “one sided” with your own VERY one-sided belief.
earthchild
well, maybe there is hope after all Very Happy

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051215/ap_on_go_pr_wh/congress_detainees

anti torture bill is accepted! yay! I'd call it a step in the right direction. Thank you McCain. and thank you Bush. and thank you all the senators who helped it happen.
ocalhoun
What exactly does that bill define torture as?
Or is that going to be left to the courts to legislate?
GW_Addict
Yes, definitely a step in the right direction, though I too would be curious to find out how they decide to define torture (as what the police do to some people is not considered torture, but is in fact just that by most opinions).

I think it will work out to be one of those things that will depend on how much media attention the ‘act of alleged torture’ gets, as most police busts and interrogation get none, and things like abu grab get tons.
donkeypoodle
Our founding fathers were a joke to begin with. They talked of all men being equal but they themselves were wealthy little pansies!
GW_Addict
donkeypoodle wrote:
Our founding fathers were a joke to begin with. They talked of all men being equal but they themselves were wealthy little pansies!


Yea, and many of them owned slaves. Politics is just another word for "double standards" - not just here, but anywhere!
Paul Knight
Politics in every county is corrupt. It's just in varying levels. I wouldn't hold up the USA as the country to use as an example of how "clean politics" should work as there are very little uncorrupted areas left in the states.

The big American corporations have too much of a say and until America gets the big money out of politics and elects someone without Money for a change, something good might actually come of American politics.
horseatingweeds
Quote:
donkeypoodle wrote:
Our founding fathers were a joke to begin with. They talked of all men being equal but they themselves were wealthy little pansies!


Yea, and many of them owned slaves. Politics is just another word for "double standards" - not just here, but anywhere!


Yeh, hut hut htu.... They where deviant evil doers.

Especially the thing about getting all those farmers together defeating a world power and carving the most powerful nation in all of history out of a wilderness.

And you gut's should read a little history before you act like the act of slave ownership is some mortal sin.
GW_Addict
Paul Knight wrote:
Politics in every county is corrupt. It's just in varying levels. I wouldn't hold up the USA as the country to use as an example of how "clean politics" should work as there are very little uncorrupted areas left in the states.

The big American corporations have too much of a say and until America gets the big money out of politics and elects someone without Money for a change, something good might actually come of American politics.


I agree, morals and politics have little in common, and your comment on the corporations having too much say is right on. Take the oil industries for a prime example. The energy department in this country is totally in their pocket. It is one of the reasons we are still so dependent on oil products.

It’s too easy for a company to say "say <insert politician name here>, why don’t we "donate" fifty million dollars to your campaign find. Oh wait, before I write the check, are you with us on this or this or this, or against us? <Dangling check in front of politician like a carrot in front of a mule.>
Billy Hill
horseatingweeds wrote:
Quote:
donkeypoodle wrote:
Our founding fathers were a joke to begin with. They talked of all men being equal but they themselves were wealthy little pansies!


Yea, and many of them owned slaves. Politics is just another word for "double standards" - not just here, but anywhere!


Yeh, hut hut htu.... They where deviant evil doers.

Especially the thing about getting all those farmers together defeating a world power and carving the most powerful nation in all of history out of a wilderness.

And you gut's should read a little history before you act like the act of slave ownership is some mortal sin.


Yeah, those evil people ruined it for everyone. Laughing
horseatingweeds
Quote:
and so the world let faith slip away even farther- faith in the land of the free. Once upon a time this great nation had inspired the oppressed people all around the world - for it broke free from oppression and guaranteed rights to all of its people, helping fellow humans to find their own voices.


now the tides had turned and this very same liberator had turned in on itself and the people of the world. human rights? bah! said the government men. freedom? no way. PROFITS! POWER! they cried - for the same disease that had once oppressed them (the rulers' and colonizers' greed) had now seeped into their bones and spread.

and so a collective tear the world did shed - for the fight for freedom and justice in it's highest form had come full circle to begin again.
Sweet earthchild, there a few things you must understand. Your mother-father earth is a horrible place. Everything is decaying and or being consumed despite all of the efforts of the inteligent forces. People, on their own, without government, are evil. Their are those on our planet willing to kill and destroy whatever to get what they feel they need. As a great power the US has an obligation to it's citizens and a responsibility to the "universe" to us it's power to protect those that the aggressors would consume. If we refuse to meat these aggressors with equal or greater aggression we WILL be consumed.


Also, you must understand the US and it's us or "torture". Torture, by the civilized, is used for interrogation. The US military is very sophisticated and not just with fast airplanes and super missiles. Interrogation is a whole science in it's self. Torture, by the definition of cutting off arms and legs is useless against our current enemies. They are willing to cut off their own arms and legs. But their are plenty of other things that will motivate someone willing to kill them selves and several women and children to prove a point.

Quote:
It has nothing to do with'perspecrtive' how someone can say something as idiotic as, 'what is punishment to one person is torture to another' is beyond me.

Silly sharkkky, GW_addict point I think is this. earthchild's poetry is torture to me but you probably enjoyed it. Making you go two days without food would probably send you into a panic where a Chinese would be right on schedule. Make me go 24 hours without sleep I'm a riming baboon while my wife can go a week without a wink. Don't get all bent out of shape.

You can look at it economically if you like. Rouge states torture there citizens regularly. So if your torture a few crazy people properly to prevent a rouge state your ahead. Understanding the proper use of torture.
GW_Addict
horseatingweeds wrote:
Quote:
earthchild:
and so the world let faith slip away even farther- faith in the land of the free. Once upon a time this great nation had inspired the oppressed people all around the world - for it broke free from oppression and guaranteed rights to all of its people, helping fellow humans to find their own voices.


now the tides had turned and this very same liberator had turned in on itself and the people of the world. human rights? bah! said the government men. freedom? no way. PROFITS! POWER! they cried - for the same disease that had once oppressed them (the rulers' and colonizers' greed) had now seeped into their bones and spread.

and so a collective tear the world did shed - for the fight for freedom and justice in it's highest form had come full circle to begin again.
Sweet earthchild, there a few things you must understand. Your mother-father earth is a horrible place. Everything is decaying and or being consumed despite all of the efforts of the inteligent forces. People, on their own, without government, are evil. Their are those on our planet willing to kill and destroy whatever to get what they feel they need. As a great power the US has an obligation to it's citizens and a responsibility to the "universe" to us it's power to protect those that the aggressors would consume. If we refuse to meat these aggressors with equal or greater aggression we WILL be consumed.


Also, you must understand the US and it's us or "torture". Torture, by the civilized, is used for interrogation. The US military is very sophisticated and not just with fast airplanes and super missiles. Interrogation is a whole science in it's self. Torture, by the definition of cutting off arms and legs is useless against our current enemies. They are willing to cut off their own arms and legs. But their are plenty of other things that will motivate someone willing to kill them selves and several women and children to prove a point.

Quote:
sharky:
It has nothing to do with'perspecrtive' how someone can say something as idiotic as, 'what is punishment to one person is torture to another' is beyond me.

Silly sharkkky, GW_addict point I think is this. earthchild's poetry is torture to me but you probably enjoyed it. Making you go two days without food would probably send you into a panic where a Chinese would be right on schedule. Make me go 24 hours without sleep I'm a riming baboon while my wife can go a week without a wink. Don't get all bent out of shape.

You can look at it economically if you like. Rouge states torture there citizens regularly. So if your torture a few crazy people properly to prevent a rouge state your ahead. Understanding the proper use of torture.


Wow - that’s very well articulated... :) And yes, I think you summed up what I was trying to say nicely - thank you. :)

And speaking of the land of the free using torture, I have to go back to work now.... (it's all semantics ;)
sciondestiny
True Americans who follow what the government and the president say are trapped. They have been hypnotized by the media and all they believe is what they see in the media. Have you taken the time to study history a bit, or have you taken the time to study other religions. Or are you too busy trying to think up of other ways to defend a country that has publicly destroyed itself and pays a yearly pay to the UN (Which I might add they created) to be off the UN tribulation court.

Now why would you pay probably billions of dollars to be of a tribulational court if you have got nothing to hide, or have gone with the rules? Please give me a reason.
gonzo
Failing to provide a detainee roomservice is what kind of torture?
GW_Addict
sciondestiny wrote:
True Americans who follow what the government and the president say are trapped. They have been hypnotized by the media and all they believe is what they see in the media. Have you taken the time to study history a bit, or have you taken the time to study other religions. Or are you too busy trying to think up of other ways to defend a country that has publicly destroyed itself and pays a yearly pay to the UN (Which I might add they created) to be off the UN tribulation court.

Now why would you pay probably billions of dollars to be of a tribulational court if you have got nothing to hide, or have gone with the rules? Please give me a reason.


You have some very valid points here. For one, media is very biased. What and how they report (or what "spin" they put on the news) almost always depends on which political faction (republican, democrat, etc.) they follow. You are also correct in your statement that most Americans pick one station (like CNN) and accept everything they say as absolute.

However, we don't have to be "hypnotized". The truth of things is apparent enough for those that look beyond one source and compare the sources, facts, and (most importantly) the political agenda behind each reported fact.

As for your UN question - I will leave that one for somebody else to answer.

And as for gonzo's question - failing to provide a detainee with food. water and sleep over long periods of time is most certainly torture. As I said before - even local police departments use this to gain confessions. The real question being argued here is whether or not this is justifiable torture....
S3nd K3ys
earthchild wrote:


and so the world let faith slip away even farther- faith in the land of the free.


Looks like the prisoners in Abu Graihb would still rather have Amercian soldiers watching them than Iragi soldiers.
New abuse at Iraqi prison

Laughing

Quote:
Some of the small number of prisoners who remained in the jail after the Americans left said they had pleaded to go with their departing captors, rather than be left in the hands of Iraqi guards.

"The Americans were better than the Iraqis. They treated us better," said Khalid Alaani, who was held on suspicion of involvement in Sunni terrorism
Soulfire
Okay, nothing is said about torture in here. This is a group of people who think the U.S. is torturing people and trying to pass their opinions off as fact.

Quote:
Mr Marty criticised the US for refusing to confirm or deny the allegations.
Naturally, that means we're guilty right? Mr. Green Guess the phrase "innocent until proven guilty" doesn't apply.

Quote:
US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has repeated assurances that the US would never condone torture.

Yeah. Sorry we don't give our imprisoned terrorists jacuzzis and room service. Ah! It's terrible!

Quote:
Tony Lloyd, a member of the Council's parliamentary assembly, told the BBC the charges that people may have been effectively kidnapped and taken to other countries for possible torture "were of such magnitude that they have to have proper answers".
Possible being the operative word. There's no foundation for these outrageous claims. It's someone who just wants to draw attention to themselves.

There's nothing here - no proof of torture, just proof of us moving and detaining terrorists. Of course, we should let the terrorists go so they can do what they want when they want!

I sure hope you caught the sarcasm.
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