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Remote WiFi camera





COTC
Hey there... does anyone know if there is such a thing? Basically, we have 240 acres of land and with that comes a lot of trespassers and party kids tearing up the back 80 acres. Does anyone know if there is a wifi camera that can be purchased? I would prefer VHF or UHF, but if I have to go 2400MHz, I will. The only problem is the terrain and the distance. Looking to shoot the data through thick trees/woods over a mile away. Any suggestions? Thanx.
kv
COTC wrote:
Hey there... does anyone know if there is such a thing? Basically, we have 240 acres of land and with that comes a lot of trespassers and party kids tearing up the back 80 acres. Does anyone know if there is a wifi camera that can be purchased? I would prefer VHF or UHF, but if I have to go 2400MHz, I will. The only problem is the terrain and the distance. Looking to shoot the data through thick trees/woods over a mile away. Any suggestions? Thanx.

If you are trying to shoot a mile away from your comp, I guess you are out of luck. I don't think there would be any wi-fi device that can support such distances and I don't think even it is legal to transmit signals that powerful.
COTC
It's legal. Legal limit is 3w. Most handhelds are at .5 watts. Not to mention that I am a HAM radio operator and could transmit in HAM band if I wanted to.

We are currently running a 900MHz ISP (to give you an idea of wattage and how it relates) pushing out at 3W which gets us a 10-15 mile radius. So I don't think a mile would be too out of the question until you get into 2400MHz (WiFi router frequency) where literally molecules can get in the way of signal. It isn't the legality, the power, or the distance that's a problem, it's equipment... does it exist? Even if it exists for wifi cam from room to room of a house with a remote transceiver, the transceiver can then be pigtailed to a +gain antenna to boost power.

And so ya know... there was a WiFi contest in the Southwest where they shot 2400MHz UNAMPLIFIED from Arizona to New Mexico (125 airmiles apart) and pulled up a webpage. They used a 10' satellite dish as the transceiver antenna. Shot from dish to dish. So yeah... 1 mile is doable.
Check it out at http://www.wifi-shootout.com/
kv
Good to know a ham radio operator here Smile I am not very sure about the equipment. But even if you can't find one, you will always find a usb device. Get a wi-fi transmitter/receiver pair, plug receiver into your comp and your usb device to the transmitter. Done!

So, even if you don't get a device you are looking for, there is a way.
Slammer
Im not sure on how you would achieve this, or if its possible, im just thinking in theory. If you need to get wireless over a large area, or far away, could you not have your wireless cameras setup where u want them, and then have wireless routers dotted around the place that eventually lead back to your base station? Ignore me if im talking rubbish lol.
Slammer
Quote:
Even if it exists for wifi cam from room to room of a house with a remote transceiver, the transceiver can then be pigtailed to a +gain antenna to boost power.


Take a look here: http://www.iviewcameras.co.uk
grantmaster
My question is...

How are you planning on getting power to the remote station?

If power is not a problem, there is an emerging standard in the US called Wi-Max.

Basically it's able to send a signal up to 15 miles!

google and you shall find
COTC
grantmaster wrote:
My question is...

How are you planning on getting power to the remote station?

If power is not a problem, there is an emerging standard in the US called Wi-Max.

Basically it's able to send a signal up to 15 miles!

google and you shall find


Thank you much, but that doesn't actually help. As I said previously... we run a wireless ISP. WiMAX is actually a giant WiFi tower (much like a cell tower) and we would have to order their service to get rights to use their signal (which... they're not even available out this far... hehe... we can't even get satellite internet out this far). Not actually looking for internet service... just base point to point communication.
(As a completely off-topic sidenote -- wimax was developed by intel? ACK!)

Who woulda thunk, with all the technology, something like this would be so difficult? hehe...

Thank you all for the answers thus far. Piecing things together from various ideas.
grantmaster
Look at the products from Proxim. No tower needed, maybe just a flagpole. Only line of sight right now but broadcast is coming soon.
COTC
grantmaster wrote:
Look at the products from Proxim. No tower needed, maybe just a flagpole. Only line of sight right now but broadcast is coming soon.


hehe.. ah. I live in Michigan. Would definitely need LoS. There's a forest between me and camera point. hehe...

Will do the research on Prox. though. Could be useful information even if for projects down the road.
ThatCrazyGuy
So your question got me looking and I did find a wifi camera... http://www.veo.com/Observer-Wireless/default.asp I don't know if it would work for what your doing. You would need an AC source and I'm not sure about what kind of range you would get out of it.

What part of michigan do you live in? I live in Vicksburg area (south of Kalamazoo) Keep us updated on your progress w/ this project.

~Crazy
abhinav_shah
Try using Wi-Max. It covers entire cites... Although it's costly...

Abhinav
FearTheTurtes
The best equipement that I have tried is made by Avalan. It is limited to only just under a one meg through put but for a 125 mw transmitter it does really well. I have a connection up right now that is about 1.5 miles away. About 1/2 mile of that is through trees. I am also working with some Wiligear equipment that claims to be 300mw. However I have yet to make the same connections. Wiligear is cheaper then the avalan but avalan is simpler to use.

BTW legal limit here in the US is 4 watts effective power output. So with a 125mw transmitter you can use a 15Dbd antenna. This applies to Hams as well unless you are using it for a Amateur radio mode of communication such as voice, Packet, APRS, SSTV and so forth. You can send anolog video as well. But it cannot be sent via TCP/IP connection. If it is then it falls back to the 4 watt limit.

Hope this helps

I also live in Michigan, up around Ludington.
Craeft
Heya everyone. I completely forgot about this thread. This is COTC (changed my name).

We actually have a 0.75 mile shot using a parabolic to a Vagi to get my aunt WiFi service. After the fun experimentation to get that going, it occurs to me the ease of doing something like this. Smply get a remote camera and replace the antenna with a directional antenna, running LMR400 (at the least). We built a WiFi repeater by using a car battery, 2 routers (what we had on hand. Would prefer 1 router that would be DDWRT compatible to set up as a repeater, but ya use what ya got), and a solar panel. Placed that in the woods and even installed a power inverter on the battery as well in case we wanna go in the woods and make coffee or something. Who knows... geeks with toys will play. Either way... we have an outlet in the woods for... umm... something.

But, all in all, the concept should work like a champ. Using the same type of system could power the camera. If we wanted to go all out, we could probably build a circuit board using zeners to limit the power to the camera.

If the legal limit is 4W, then they recently changed it. It was 3W just a couple years ago. But if it is used for closed circuit TV (which is what this would be), that limit is negotiable. Wouldn't really matter though. 3W should hit us just fine from a mile away. The 0.75 mile shot we're doing right now is 'talking' on 500mW with high-gain antennas. We have so many extra satellite dishes and copper wire around here, that if need be, we'll build yet another parabolic WiFi to 'burn' through the trees. Worked the first time. heh


Thanks everyone who responded to this. Smile
Craeft
abhinav_shah wrote:
Try using Wi-Max. It covers entire cites... Although it's costly...

Abhinav


From what I've seen of WiMax (unless I am missing an important component), it would work fine for cities... but dense foliage would eat that frequency alive.
FearTheTurtes
For 900Mhz (and 2.4g I think) the power limit for the transmitter and any amps is 1w then you can use antenna gain to get the 4w effective limit or 36Dbm. So with a 1w transmitter you can use a 6dbd antenna. Now on 5g the limit is higher. I think the transmitter power limit is the same but you can use higher gain antennas then that of 900MHz and achieve a 40Dbm or about 10w so long as it does not cause harmful interferiance to any radar equipment.

It seems to me that if he did a ATV setup he shouldn't really have any problems other then getting power to it. One thing he will have to consider is that if he is getting trespassers that anything he puts out there will be open to vandalizm. Hidding the camera gear would not be a problem but any solar panels of any size would stick out like a sore thumb.

Let me through out a question here that has me stumped. My Avalan equipment puts out 125mw and I have a connection 1.5 miles way. I try making the same connection using wiligear which transmitts at 300mw and I get nothing. The only difference that I can see is the Avalan has a narrower bandwidth of only 2MHz where the Wiligear uses 5MHz. Could this difference cause my problem?
Craeft
FearTheTurtes wrote:
For 900Mhz (and 2.4g I think) the power limit for the transmitter and any amps is 1w then you can use antenna gain to get the 4w effective limit or 36Dbm.


900MHz is definitely 3W into the antenna. There's no limit on what comes out of the antenna (via antenna gain). 2.4GHz, I think you're right at 1W... but again, that's into the antenna. No limit on output via gain.

I was thinking it was 3W, but I got all mixed up with the 900MHz stuff. Ugh. I have too many antennas in the air to keep track of.

Quote:

So with a 1w transmitter you can use a 6dbd antenna. Now on 5g the limit is higher. I think the transmitter power limit is the same but you can use higher gain antennas then that of 900MHz and achieve a 40Dbm or about 10w so long as it does not cause harmful interferiance to any radar equipment.

The issue, though, as you go up in frequency is 2fold:
1: Waves don't travel as far and are eaten by foliage in a heartbeat.
2: Coax loss increases exponentially.

Quote:


It seems to me that if he did a ATV setup he shouldn't really have any problems other then getting power to it. One thing he will have to consider is that if he is getting trespassers that anything he puts out there will be open to vandalizm. Hidding the camera gear would not be a problem but any solar panels of any size would stick out like a sore thumb.


Already have a fix for the solar panels. We have a pretty good canopy where the panel can run up above the treeline. There's actually a perfect tree that has a "slit" all the way down in, large enough to stuff even 12-guage wire into it if we wanted to go that heavy (overkill though). hehe... Was out there yesterday looking at where we'd place the camera and that tree kinda stuck out at me.
The hard part would be hiding the battery. But that can be done with a hole, some sticks, and some leaves.

Quote:

Let me through out a question here that has me stumped. My Avalan equipment puts out 125mw and I have a connection 1.5 miles way. I try making the same connection using wiligear which transmitts at 300mw and I get nothing. The only difference that I can see is the Avalan has a narrower bandwidth of only 2MHz where the Wiligear uses 5MHz. Could this difference cause my problem?

Yes. Definitely. Look at it in terms of light where the bandwidth would be the field width of the light pool. The wider the pool gets, the less intense the light gets. So you throw more power at it, which is what you did there. Unfortunately, the amount of power needed is not linear. I used to have a really good website that helped calculate this type of thing, but I forgot to pull it over to this computer when I built it. I'll see if I can find it.

Sorry my analogy isn't the best, but I'm a lighting designer... it's the best I had. heh
FearTheTurtes
As in a lot of this discussions we are both somewhat wrong. LOL

If you look at Part 15 it states.

(1) For frequency hopping systems operating in the 2400-2483.5 MHz
or 5725-5850 MHz band and for all direct sequence systems: 1 watt.

(2) For frequency hopping systems operating in the 902-928 MHz band: 1
watt for systems employing at least 50 hopping channels; and, 0.25 watts
for systems employing less than 50 hopping channels, but at least 25
hopping channels, as permitted under paragraph (a)(1)(i) of this
section.

[Note: The maximum gain of omni-directional antennas at this 1 Watt,
is inferred to be 6 dBi from the paragraphs below, or 36 dBm maximum.
1 Watt is 30 dBm, plus the 6 dB gain, results in about 4 Watts Effective
Isotropic Radiated Power (EIRP)]

Now Part 15 is for non-licensed use. Amateur radio operaters do not fall into this section.

Hams can exceed the 1 watt limit so long as they are not transmitting spread spectrum with out any type of automatic power control.

One thing to remember is that if you are going under you ham ticket you need to transmit your call every 10 minutes.

As for my question. If you can point me to that websit it would be a big help. Thanks.
FearTheTurtes
Well according to the manufacture of Wiligear the power is directly proportional to the channel spacing. So if one unit uses 2.5 times the channel spacing it will require 2.5 time the power. However I think this only applies to LOS connections. My conclusion for quite and extensive field testing, trees will interfere more with the wider channel. It does so to the point that I would not consider a 5MHz channal to be NLOS.
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