FRIHOST FORUMS SEARCH FAQ TOS BLOGS COMPETITIONS
You are invited to Log in or Register a free Frihost Account!


Shouldnt I use frames?





pecocer
Hi there,

Im designing a website made up of several parts and some of them are supposed to be other websites. I think <frame> can do the work, but Ive read that its not a good idea to use them.

Id like to know your opinion (and if you agree with them and you know a good solution, please let me know!).

Thanks.
Arnie
A possible solution is using tables combined with PHP include. That PHP function allows you to 'paste' the contents of a file into another. For example if you have this file called body.html:
Code:
<b>Testing the <i>include</i> function!</b>
And this file called index.html:
Code:
<html>
<head>
<title>Test</title>
</head>
<body>
<? include("body.html") ?>
</body>
</html>
Running index.html would give this result:
Code:
<html>
<head>
<title>Test</title>
</head>
<body>
<b>Testing the <i>include</i> function!</b>
</body>
</html>
You can use this function to add the same menus and footers and headers etc. to all your HTML files. Put the menu in one file and include that file to all your HTML pages. If you want to edit the menu, just editing that one file will change the menu on all your pages. Just like it would work when your menu would be in a frame. So using include saves space and time.

The other aspect of frames - being able to position stuff at for example the side of the page - can be achieved by using tables in your site's layout.
dacode
Hi,

Frames are out of trend nowadays, but for many bad reasons.
In your exemple, while toying with PHP includes can of course do the trick, (but then why not making everything PHp-driven ?), it does suppose that you understand...well, PHP.

Frames are exactly what you need (different contents from different parts in one single page).

Tags you will need :


Code:
<html><head></head><frameset> <frame> <noframes><body></body></noframes></frameset></html>


Things to keep in mind while using frames :

Use JavaScript and think about doorways on the pages you're in control (in case someone came from out of nowhere and not via the homepage, thus might get stuck in a child window, without any mean to find its way and surf the site)

Use noframes to help search engine bots to crawl your site.

Frames are great. Many people don't use it today simply because they've read on a forum that it was bad.

Good luck !
Arnie
dacode wrote:
In your exemple, while toying with PHP includes can of course do the trick, (but then why not making everything PHp-driven ?), it does suppose that you understand...well, PHP.
You're answering your own questions: why not make everything PHP driven? Because you need to understand PHP to do so. But if you only use include, you don't need to understand PHP. You just copy/paste the include code and you're done.

I agree with you that "what people read on forums" can have bad biasing effects on them. It's the pressure from the global internet community. Personally I haven't studied pros and cons of frames but I feel you're likely to be right. It could well be another occurence of the "leet senseless bashing" phenomenon.
Simulator
pecocer wrote:
Hi there,

Im designing a website made up of several parts and some of them are supposed to be other websites. I think <frame> can do the work, but Ive read that its not a good idea to use them.

Id like to know your opinion (and if you agree with them and you know a good solution, please let me know!).

Thanks.


You say other websites, do you mean ones you have hosted or sites that are not yours and not hosted by you
THE11thROCK
Don't use frames. It will give you more headaches and many other things.

The only good thing about it is that your source code will not be readily readable for your site is divided into frames. However, anyone with persistence can still view your source.
eday2010
I've used frames before with great success. My current site uses frames in a very tight window. Just make sure that when you use them, IF you use them, that you set them so the user cannot resize them. That is, if your layout is very specific as far as frame dimensions. But it just might be easier to use tables and the include php function.
becks78
i personally think that using frame will just make your web site looks messy. best if you keep everything in one page, people usually will use table.
voteforsamuel
If you know how to use frames you'll find that in most cases using frames is the best solution. Before you use anything you need to think about what you want your site to look like.

For example, if you want a navigation bar down the left or across the top and then the rest of your site in the middle then frames would be ideal. Frames are best for simpler websites.

If you wanted something more complex, like say a logo on the top and a navigation bar on the left, and some links on the bottom, then that's where frames can become not only messy but confusing. For something like this use a table.
Kestrel
Frames can be very effective if you know how to use them. If you don't, just practice with them. Go do some tutorials or read more about them. Once you perfect how to use them they're wonderful. All the sites with Frames I have seen (while used correctly) have been rather impressive.
savabg
I would also suggest to look at inline frames (if you are dealing with basic HTML) the <iframe> tag can be very resourceful at times when you do not want to spit your entire website
supjapscrapper
pecocer wrote:
Hi there,

Im designing a website made up of several parts and some of them are supposed to be other websites. I think <frame> can do the work, but Ive read that its not a good idea to use them.

Id like to know your opinion (and if you agree with them and you know a good solution, please let me know!).

Thanks.


Hi I've just got something short to sau about Frames. With recursive use thay get quick to be Hell. If you have in each Frame a different website. as long as they have as well Frames or under website divisions... you'll get a window with a succession of frames one in another and no one can be correctly read.
Since more than 5 or 6 years is the use of Frames not precnised and must be used carefully, sometimes you need them Very Happy
Just use XHTML, (well almost) and especially the <DIV> Tags, you can do everything with them and you'll get enough tutorials on the net.
JustaMin
I would personally look to CSS rather than frames for layout, and if it's a problem of content management rather than design, I'd agree with the above poster that using php includes would be a much more elegant solution.
VIPER VENOM
When i see something or want something on a site/ template and dont know how to make i find it on someone elses site and right click on main page and click veiw source and that allows you to see how some other web site are put together. and you can copy and paste or use that to work from.
VIPER VENOM
But always know where your undo button is. just in case you add something that just doesnt work.
Arnie
Well I think using sources from existing websites is only OK for personal experimenting and getting experience. You shouldn't use copied code on the actual website that you put online, because stealing somebody else's code isn't appreciated.
lazaruz
I don't think you should care about if frames are out of trend or not, you should use whatever is more effective on your website.

Sometimes it's a good idea to use frames and sometimes it's not, think about whats good for you.
shabda
Quote:
Frames are great. Many people don't use it today simply because they've read on a forum that it was bad.

But read with a good reason. Frames are not SE friendly. Just see how many of toip sites, Yahoo, goog, amazon use frames? None.
Any layout you want can be achieved with frames, and once you understand will be easier too. Look at csszengarden.com for example.
If you really, really must use, use Iframes instead.
llsanderll
I don't see what's the problem with frames...
Doesn't make your whole webpage reload at every click etc...
shabda
Quote:
Doesn't make your whole webpage reload at every click etc...

If you click then oviously the content has to reload, frames save the bandwidth of the non changing part like nav bar, which is not that large. Do you really need that headache for such little benefit.
Silverman
llsanderll wrote:
I don't see what's the problem with frames...
Doesn't make your whole webpage reload at every click etc...


Frames causes broken links... which you don't want to...
And also, it doesn't always display the page of the frame link...
I used it before, so i know it from experience...

So in the first case, don't use frames...

I heard CSS Frames works great...
I shall give you some links soon, i have to seek them...
Grimboy
PHP include can mess up the application flow of other scripts if its from and external sites. On top of that you will get a very messed up document structure if you get several html tags under each other.
Aki
I remeber I use to use frames but I would suggest you don't use them to display your menu. The simple reason : If a visitor searchs a page of your site on a search engine and it displays the content page and not enter the page through your homepage chances are your menu frame would not be displayed. This means the visitor can't access the rest of your site. There is a script to force load the frames but I can't remember what it was.

I suggest using php or css style sheets to layout your page instead of frames.
Arnie
The above problem can be countered by adding a special script that will check whether the page has a parent frameset. If not, it will automatically load the entire frameset.
Reign
llsanderll wrote:
I don't see what's the problem with frames...
Doesn't make your whole webpage reload at every click etc...


Why you shouldn't use frames

do it the php way Wink
bnbrown
Frames are ok. There is no problem with it if you use them courtious. You can you use it even that one annot see that it's a framethere. Php is aslo ok, if you are in that stuff.
a_dubDesign
Arnie wrote:
Well I think using sources from existing websites is only OK for personal experimenting and getting experience. You shouldn't use copied code on the actual website that you put online, because stealing somebody else's code isn't appreciated.


not only is it not appreciated, it is also illegal. Soure code is protected under copyright laws. So if you don't have permission to copy and paste, dont do it.
paul_indo
Firstly Frames,

I love them and have used them for years. It is a great way to put a static menu on the page that doesn't reload with every page.

Looking at the "Why you shouldn't use frames" site

1. Every browser I have used for 10 years works fine with frames, if anyone has an older browser than that there are many other things that won't run or load correctly on most pages these days.

2. If you don't want to link to other peoples sites this is not an issue. If you do just load a notice with that page to indicate it is not your own.

3. As dacode said, use "noframes" to eliminate this problem.

4. This may be a problem for some people but unless you have a very large site I don't think it is really an issue.

5. Once again unless your site is very large this shouldn't be a big problem.

6. Why do I want someone to link to a page on my site? If you do then maybe it's a problem

7. I have not found this to be a problem if you code the frames correctly.

Frames are great for some sites bad for others make your choice based on the type of site you are building and who will view it. If any of the problems are an issue for you purpose don't use frames.



Copyright:

How can anyone copyright HTML coding when they didn't invent it?

If I use HTML code to create a page design the code itself does not belong to me surely?

If they use my graphics or content sure that's illegal, but how can copying a layout style be illegal when anyone with the knowledge can just write their own HTML to do exactly what they see on another site?

That would mean if I use a 150 pixel width frame for my side menu anyone else who does that has stolen "my" code.

I am a bit confused as to what people intend when they say that the "code" is copyright

Can anyone clarify this for me?

Thanks
KungFuChris
Silverman wrote:

Frames causes broken links... which you don't want to...
And also, it doesn't always display the page of the frame link...
I used it before, so i know it from experience...


Frames do not cause broken links... incorrect implementation of frames causes broken links.

In the end frames really went out of fashion, not so much because they were so terribly bad, but because there were so many people doing them badly!

You may as well say that CSS is bad, because if you don't pay carefull attention to your ; then the page can look awful!

On the other hand, newer technologies have now made frames the best solution in a much smaller number of design choices.
Rhysige
Arnie wrote:
A possible solution is using tables combined with PHP include. That PHP function allows you to 'paste' the contents of a file into another. For example if you have this file called body.html:
Code:
<b>Testing the <i>include</i> function!</b>
And this file called index.html:
Code:
<html>
<head>
<title>Test</title>
</head>
<body>
<? include("body.html") ?>
</body>
</html>
Running index.html would give this result:
Code:
<html>
<head>
<title>Test</title>
</head>
<body>
<b>Testing the <i>include</i> function!</b>
</body>
</html>
You can use this function to add the same menus and footers and headers etc. to all your HTML files. Put the menu in one file and include that file to all your HTML pages. If you want to edit the menu, just editing that one file will change the menu on all your pages. Just like it would work when your menu would be in a frame. So using include saves space and time.

The other aspect of frames - being able to position stuff at for example the side of the page - can be achieved by using tables in your site's layout.


Ok you got it half right, PHP includes = brilliant, I use them all the time on my sites and usually use the $_GET function to just change the body include rather than everything.
HOWEVER! Tables are for displayong DATA! and should NEVER be used in a page layout. Tables get stuffed over by screen sizes and browser sizes for one thing, second they are displayed differently in varying browsers and thirdly THIS IS WHAT CSS IS FOR! Tables load data very slowley so using them for a page layout is ollogical and stupid, a few divs and you are set for life.
Arnie
You can define table sizes both relatively and absolute. My tabled site shows good in both IE and FF. Tested with resolutions from 640x480 to 1024x768. It's the relative/absolute choice that makes it flexible. And it's not slow at all. My Celeron 500MHz can load it without any problem.
a_dubDesign
paul_indo wrote:
Copyright:

How can anyone copyright HTML coding when they didn't invent it?

If I use HTML code to create a page design the code itself does not belong to me surely?

If they use my graphics or content sure that's illegal, but how can copying a layout style be illegal when anyone with the knowledge can just write their own HTML to do exactly what they see on another site?

That would mean if I use a 150 pixel width frame for my side menu anyone else who does that has stolen "my" code.

I am a bit confused as to what people intend when they say that the "code" is copyright

Can anyone clarify this for me?

Thanks

You are correct that the html you use does not belong to you, but your exact arrangement of the different tags and whatnot are technically copyrighted. Its like if I were to get a license to use a bunch of pictures that someone else took and made a commercial using them. The other person owns the copyright to the pictures, but I own the copyright to the exact way that I arrange those pictures in the commercial.

It definetly gets tricky when you are talking about basic things that anyone can create, like 150px width frames. I'm definetly no expert, but with something simple any court would call it ludacris and throw it out. The only time that I could see copying someone's source code would create any legal problems is if its drawing business away from the site you copied.

There are huge amounts of grey areas when you start talking about copyright laws. But laws completely aside, its just not good to copy someone elses code. Just imagine going into an interview or something with a design house, showing them your portfolio, and having one of the people you're interviewing with say "hey I recognize that, I made that exact thing a year ago."
Miss Luna
KungFuChris wrote:
Silverman wrote:

Frames causes broken links... which you don't want to...
And also, it doesn't always display the page of the frame link...
I used it before, so i know it from experience...


Frames do not cause broken links... incorrect implementation of frames causes broken links.

In the end frames really went out of fashion, not so much because they were so terribly bad, but because there were so many people doing them badly!

You may as well say that CSS is bad, because if you don't pay carefull attention to your ; then the page can look awful!

On the other hand, newer technologies have now made frames the best solution in a much smaller number of design choices.


I agree. Frames are only bad if the designer does them improperly/doesn't know what they're doing. Frame layouts are just fine if you know how to work them...I guess apparently a lot of people don't.
paul_indo
Quote:
Just imagine going into an interview or something with a design house, showing them your portfolio, and having one of the people you're interviewing with say "hey I recognize that, I made that exact thing a year ago."


You are right, to copy someones complete concept is not reasonable or fair.

I think I was not clear enough in what I said.

What I was getting at was that I often see a great feature on a web site and then I look at their source code to see how it was done.

This is much easier than trying to find a reference to a tutorial as you have too sift through hundreds of similar ideas maybe before you get the exact one.

When I see their code I adapt and modify it to do exactly what I want it too.

I look at it this way, the code thay use comes from a defined system of coding and therfore what they did was actually not their own invention, but a new or different combination of something someone else created.

As you said, if I just copied their layout, that would be not so good. What I feel is that I am using there knowledge to help me learn more quickly, but the end result is only "based on" what they did. Not a copy.

Is this a reasonable arguement?
I hope so!
nike88
although frames r easy to work with, they r very frustratin for a browser, havin different thing appear at different times and what not.
i recommend not using because so many more thing can go wrong, just from experience
mike4652
Frames pages can be very useful when used the proper way.
I have seen sites that as far as the design of the layout they should have used frames so that thier pages would load faster.
I like to use frames if I need to set the layout for a banner rotation or for the navigation. Frames can be nice if they are used right.
yokonative
Why would they be bad? they are a great tool and all you have to do is make sure your links in between them are correct. Many people dont like them because links between the frames are a little harder to understand for a beginner. But, once you understand everything, you wil love them. they provide lower file size and lessen the files you need.
Related topics
Frames Help
..how to make a frames layout?...
Do you like browsing a site that uses HTML frames?
Frames, Tables, iFrames
Can you use frames on frihost?
Does Joomla use frames?
Can frames be a good choice? What then?
What shouldn't you do/where shouldn't you take a first date?
A racist in everyone
Frames for any resolution
Are you with the one you truly love?
Sleep less to get more out of life?
or i shouldn't truly love anyone?
Help!!!
Reply to topic    Frihost Forum Index -> Webmaster and Internet -> Design Tips

FRIHOST HOME | FAQ | TOS | ABOUT US | CONTACT US | SITE MAP
© 2005-2011 Frihost, forums powered by phpBB.